U-M Creative Currents

Rick Lowe: Art as a Catalyst of Creativity, Community and Change

• Arts Initiative • Season 3 • Episode 8

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In this thought-provoking episode of U-M Creative Currents, host Mark Clague welcomes a distinguished panel of guests at the intersection of art, social research, and community engagement: artist Rick Lowe, curator Abigail Winograd, professor Christian Davenport, and social scientist Kate Cagney. Together, they examine how art serves as a catalyst for social exploration, change, and collective storytelling.

As part of a unique collaboration between the Institute for Social Research (ISR) and the U-M Arts Initiative, Rick and Abigail are working alongside U-M students – through a class they’re co-teaching with Professor Davenport – and U-M faculty to create new artworks and an upcoming exhibition. Their work blurs the lines between artistic practice, historical critique, and community-driven social change.


Season 3, ep. 7: Rick Lowe, Abigail Winograd, Christian Davenport, & Kate Cagney

[00:00:06.626] Mark Clague:
Welcome to Creative Currents, a Michigan arts podcast where we explore collaborative creativity and the power of the arts to spark meaningful conversations. I'm your host, Mark Clegg, and today we're joined by an incredible group of collaborators, artist Rick Lowe, curator Abby Wunigrad, social scientist Kate Cagney, and U of M political science professor Christian Davenport. I could probably spend the entire show just going over the accomplishments of our cast today, talking about their biographies, but let's just jump into the conversation. So everybody, welcome to Creative Currents. 

[00:00:37.031] Kate Cagney & Rick Lowe:
Thank you for having us.

[00:00:37.792] Mark Clague:
So, Rick, you're an artist. And like all cool artists, the term artist doesn't really tell the whole story. But you started out, in a sense, in a pretty traditional program, as I understand it, doing landscape painting. But that has completely changed. That sort of political interest you've had has been completely transformed into what you call social sculpture. How did that happen?

[00:01:02.238] Rick Lowe:
Yeah. Well, OK. So I've been developing this talk lately called I call it the accidental artist because you know I have I have no there's no reason that I should have become an artist from a very young age I didn't I didn't have that in my life and I played basketball that was my dream and but it wasn't until I went to college and I took an art class just as a class that should be fun I

[00:01:29.868] Mark Clague:
love that because that's what we want education to do right

[00:01:33.352] Rick Lowe:
yeah yeah absolutely and I took the art class and it replaced my basketball for me. And it was a very traditional program in Georgia. I studied painting and I did landscape paintings until I decided that what I was really driven by from my early childhood was the issue of social justice. I've always been interested in that.

[00:01:57.237] Mark Clague:
Now, did your friends and family think you're crazy to be given a basketball to become a painter?

[00:02:03.284] Rick Lowe:
Yeah. I mean, they didn't quite understand what the art thing was about. At all. But I also think they understood that standing at 5'10", 5'11", basketball wasn't going to be it either. I didn't have a basketball career. That wasn't going to be it either. But yeah, so I guess, you know. Anyway, so I started, and it was landscape painting. That was what the school offered. But eventually, as I started to learn to paint a little bit, I ventured out into more political-oriented paintings that was figurative.

[00:02:32.735] Mark Clague:
victim series. Yes, yes. And you put people into your art.

[00:02:36.400] Rick Lowe:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I was what, you know, and what I was doing then was very much so similar to what I'm doing now is trying to reshape how people see things and how we think about things and the narratives around things. So I would, at that time, I would take images from all kinds of newspapers and magazines, and I would juxtapose them, you know, images from the same magazine. So, you know, you look at a magazine and you'll see something about some starving children in Ethiopia or something. And the next page, you'll see like somebody driving a Right, the advertisement of that aspirational. to be Project Row House.

[00:03:37.444] Mark Clague:
social sculpture mean to you? I mean, you've worked with, you know, collectives of artists. You've worked with, you know, big Project Row House, right? Bringing in housing and bringing the community into your artwork in a sense that it's very, there's no, like, barrier or border between you and the community.

[00:03:56.284] Rick Lowe:
Absolutely, absolutely. And I attribute that to Joseph Boyes helping me understand that. He defines social sculpture as the way in which we shape and mold the world around us. and one of his statements was that everybody has to be an artist to shape and mold the world. And so that kind of freed me up to understand that, and to embrace the fact that we're all creative and we all should be creatively trying to address the issues that we face. It embodies real estate, architecture, social services, education, arts, you know. It's not just a painting hanging on the wall, right? Yeah, it's about life. And I think that's one of the things that I've learned through social sculpture is that, and I think we're getting better about it as a society, but we generally in the past, when I started Project Doorhouse, everything was kind of isolated and siloed. You know, housing didn't have a lot of social services connected to it, and it didn't have education connected to it, and it didn't have arts connected to it. And so when we came along, we started to blend all those things together.

[00:05:01.095] Mark Clague:
So how would you say that's different? Like with Project Doorhouse, I mean, you could have a social service agency and you could prevent or prevent you know, services to mothers and do those kinds of things. But how does it change it when it's part of an art project?

[00:05:13.327] Rick Lowe:
The most important differentiation of doing community work as an art project and as a service project is that there's a symbolic element to the art side. You know, the art side is about, yeah, everybody wants to have a result. You know, you want to have the impact that you're setting out to do. But really, you know, you're you're really counting on the fact that you're going to do something that's going to inspire people beyond what it is that you're doing. So if I'm doing something, if I'm a social worker and I'm working with 10 children and I want those 10 children to do well, then that's great.

[00:05:50.286] Rick Lowe:
But as an artist, I'm working with 10 children.

[00:05:52.028] Rick Lowe:
I want my work with the 10 children to be formulated in a way in which it can inspire other people to do more. That's the difference there is the symbolic part that we try to do to inspire people.

[00:06:13.512] Mark Clague:
So there's a kind of domino effect in a sense. If you get into this larger aesthetic inspiration area, then you go from Project Roses and you go to Watts and then you go to other parts of the city of Houston, right?

[00:06:25.024] Rick Lowe:
Yeah. I kind of chuckled when you said domino effect because also, you know, you talked about the early paintings as a landscape painter and then doing social sculpture. And now We also do abstract paintings that is based on domino games.

[00:06:44.305] Mark Clague:
of them as little dollar bills, as I see you're talking about economic justice.

[00:06:49.730] Rick Lowe:
Yes, it is. The thing about doing something with a symbolic gesture is to have that kind of domino effect where one person gets it and they kind of lead it to another and so on and so forth.

[00:07:03.064] Mark Clague:
One person who got it is Abby, who's here with us. And, Abby, you're a curator, and you've done the Venice Biennale, and you've worked all over the world, and yet you get this call from Rick Lowe, I guess, and... Well, I called him. You called him? Okay. myself. So how does it... Yeah, you wouldn't think... A curator usually, at least in my understanding, is like taking the finished artwork and putting it on a wall and sort of working with how the public would engage and really appreciate this art. But you've gotten more deeply into this creative collaboration. Can you describe... How does this work?

[00:07:37.521] Abigail Winograd:
Well, Rick and I met over the phone for the first time in 2017. I had called him because I was invited by the MacArthur Foundation to organize an exhibition celebrating the 40th anniversary of the Fellows Program. And that invitation was extremely broad, really to conceive of a project that would take place in 2021. And it had to be in the city of Chicago and it had to be with, you know, artists who'd received a MacArthur Fellowship. But besides that, I didn't really have much, there weren't any guardrails for better or worse. And I mean, one of the things that we were interested in doing was thinking about projects that would have a lasting impact in the city of Chicago. And so the first call I made was to Rick, whose work I was familiar with from being a PhD student at the University of Texas. He actually gave a lecture at the University of Texas when I was- Texas looms large. He gave a lecture at the University of Texas when I was there in Austin talking about Project Row Houses, and then I subsequently went to visit Project Row Houses. I found it quite inspiring, and I thought, you know, sometime down the road I'll work with an artist like Rick Lowe, and then I had the opportunity to call him, so I called him and invited him to come to Chicago, and he said, well, I've been thinking about Chicago, and I've got this idea for a project that would think about, you know, the legacy of Black Wall Street, and I want to think about how you you recreate the conditions for a black Wall Street in the 21st century. And I had no idea how to do that. And very early on in our collaboration, we were in a meeting, and he said to the assembled people in the room, my projects have 25-year time horizons, so we'll remember this day 25 years from now as the beginning of something. And I'm pretty sure I said that same thing to Kate when we met with her for the first time. We're asking you to join us for something that's going to be a long haul. And I had never worked with an artist in that way. It's certainly not how we are trained as curators or art historians to work with artists. We think of an end point of an exhibition, and that's kind of...

[00:09:59.452] Mark Clague:
Well, it starts to make sense to me in the sense that you're working with people, and Rick is working with social sculpture. Yeah. And you're sort of engaging the community too. So I start to see how this works.

[00:10:11.186] Abigail Winograd:
Yeah, I mean, it's been, it has certainly been a journey. And that, I mean, the project in Chicago, I worked with a number of artists, some of them who are, I continue to work with in a long-term capacity. I mean, I have to say that not being an institutional curator has made that possible. I mean, working within an institution that has schedules and timelines and you have to work towards end goals makes the that harder to work with artists in the way that I work with Rick or Melchin or Jeffrey Gibson. Being independent has allowed me to see things through to the end or to the middle or wherever we are in the process of things and to really let go of expectations of what the end is going to look like. So this has certainly been a learning process for me and it has transformed the way that I work with artists, certainly.

[00:11:04.956] Mark Clague:
So You're working in Chicago, obviously a historic black community there. I mean, I'm a music historian, so the history of jazz in Chicago coming up from New Orleans is really important. We're now sort of in Southeast Michigan, Detroit, the largest black community in the United States. But Tulsa and Black Wall Street really figures as another point here. So, Rick, maybe you can tell us a little bit about Black Wall Street for any people who missed the discussion of the Tulsa massacre in 2021.

[00:11:34.811] Rick Lowe:
what I like to talk about when I speak of the Tulsa massacre is that I like to address the different narratives that are happening there. Most people, if they know anything about it, they know about the massacre, if they know anything. That was in 1921. The Greenwood neighborhood of Tulsa was one of the most prosperous African-American neighborhoods in the country. I think it got it titled Black Wall Street. Some people say it was that Booker T. Washington visited Tulsa and said, you know, this is like Wall Street. It's Black Wall Street. And so that's where it gets that name from. But it was through envy of the white community there. They destroyed it, burned it to the ground, the entire neighborhood. Yeah, its success meant it had to be erased. Yeah, some leavened thousand people were displaced and many killed and nobody really knows the number in fact they're still

[00:12:47.249] Mark Clague:
and it's often I mean it was represented as a riot and it was blamed on the black community and I think the more research done the more we realize this riot was a riot of the white population attacking the black community yes and that it was

[00:13:02.203] Rick Lowe:
yes yes it was it wasn't until the Senate the conversations around the centennial that the term massacre was embraced. Prior to that, it was always called the Tulsa riots, which was not a riot. But the other side of that narrative, though, that I always try to call people's attention to and the side that inspired the Black Wall Street Journey project was that, and I didn't, when I went there to visit, I was listening to people talk about the massacre and then I noticed on one of the buildings on the main street Street Theater had on the top of the building, it said 1922. The next year. I said, but I thought everything burned down. And that's when the community started to tell me how people came back and they rebuilt. And so the Greenwood neighborhood thrived throughout the 20s and into the 30s until urban renewal. So that's a part of the narrative. I think that people kind of miss that empowering part of black history That resilience, that commitment. Yeah, and so that kind of led into my wanting to have that as a part of the narrative now. What is the resilience, and what are the contributions that black people are making now, despite all the challenges?

[00:14:21.308] Mark Clague:
So Christian, you're a political science professor here at the university, and just one of the transformative teachers we have on campus, and you have the opportunity to work with an artist in a class. So tell me what was going through your mind about this opportunity and how that class was going.

[00:14:42.532] Christian Davenport:
Actually, well, Rick and I have known each other for like 30 plus years. So when I first came out of grad school, I was in Houston. And as Rick identified earlier, he reveals to people or reminds people or incorporates people into their art. And so we interacted in this cultural center where I was doing some class on kind of like urban development, urban decay, politics, and so forth, political education for youth. And I don't know how we ever got to the ask but Rick was just kind of like hey do you want a row house and basically I was creating a board game to kind of reveal to kids what was going on revealing that my general idea of how to do it was just gone awry but we created this board we co-created this board game and then he was like do the board game in the house and I'm like I'm not an artist he's just like yes you are you are now and then basically that kind of like started our interaction and so but I mean my mother is my mother was a my mother was a dancer now a fine art my father was in graphic design so I was I'm a non-traditional academic in the sense that I don't know any academics until I get to grad school. And then years later, we come across one another with regards to Rick got the artist in residence here, and then I got an email from Abby suggesting that I come to this meeting to interact with this artist, not knowing that we had this 30-year history. Yeah, exactly. Wow, that's amazing. And then we were like, oh, wow, yo, what's up? And then my knowing how Michigan works, I'm like, look, we either have a research project together or a class or I'm not going to see you and so I said and then so I felt like it's not it's not on the same level of the project Rojas Invitation but I'm just like yeah why don't we do a class together and so I then brought him into the research and I just had finished or was in the process of working on a project on legacies of racial violence from Research Council Norway and so I was kind of in this space and then since I met Rick I've been collecting data on this anti-black human rights violations and so I was just in the reflective part of okay I'm gonna write this book and I'm like you know what forget Oxford and Cambridge let me do something else but I didn't know what that other thing would be and then we got to this conversation and then I heard about Black Wall Street and I'm just like I never liked that anyway it was more like Black Harlem for me there was no industry there was no stocks so we like had a conversation about kind of like well what other ways could we think of Black Progress and we're like yo let's do that let's make that the class and then we kind of evolved from that to kind of and then Abby helped bring us back to earth and then we brought some students in on it as well and then we kind of came in that space. We're just like, well, let's look at some research. Let's go to some scholarship on different ways of thinking about this particular phenomena. And let's use the class to kind of articulate in that some kind of artistic explosion. It's like, let's do every different way of trying to communicate what we're seeing in terms of the idea of black progress and use that kind of rainbow of options and concepts to kind of like enliven a broader conversation of what this could be. But we were very ambitious initially. It was because it's We'll make it two classes. And we were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, okay, you need to roll that back. Who's going to commit to a two-class? A full year, yeah. A full year commitment. And we were just like, evidently, someone will if you pitch it in a proper way. And so the first class was, I think, a lot of content and a little creativity. And this time it's a little bit less content and more creativity. But then we've also realized that it's just constantly going back and forth. Okay, we have this interest. Okay, we need this person. Okay, we need an algorithm here. We need an architect. here. We need some social scientists to do some scraping here. Now we're bringing more people into the conversation. It's really an interdisciplinary team. Which works perfect for Michigan. There's no way that this could have worked when I won't even mention the other places that I've been at that this would not work in. It works well in Michigan.

[00:18:24.689] Mark Clague:
the kind of arts integrative research that we're hoping to see in the Arts Initiative. I've heard three or four of the students have changed their major in this class. This is a place where transformative education is happening.

[00:18:36.340] Christian Davenport:
everyone might be happy about that, but we were happy. I'm happy about it.

[00:18:39.904] Mark Clague:
students are happy about it. I think the political science department must be happy about it. That's all good. Creativity is more the focus of this term. I hear you've converted a room in the university into an art studio. What's going to happen this term?

[00:18:58.444] Abigail Winograd:
We're hoping it's going to be a little bit more of a studio class. We'll toggle between the two with a lot more guest speakers, but as we move towards the outcome of this particular collaboration within the context of Black Wall Street Journey, which is an exhibition at the University Art Museum and at ISR, we're asking the students to both produce work that will be part of that exhibition and help us think through what that exhibition should look like and build the various components of the project.

[00:19:32.862] Rick Lowe:
And that's, you know, the team and the students and all of this is a part of the social sculpture process. I mean, when you, you know, when Abby came into this project as a curator, you know, to me as the artist, you come into the project, you are a participant. You know, I mean, you are a practitioner. You're not a bystander. that sense. Absolutely.

[00:19:59.450] Mark Clague:
work as a verb.

[00:20:00.330] Rick Lowe:
Yeah, that's right. It all becomes, you know, it all feeds to the same thing. And so, and that's why when Kristen, when he was talking about with his interacting with Project Row House this way back, it was like, look, you're doing something that's interesting and creative, is thoughtful, is creative, then let's see how it plays within a community context and see the value that it brings to the overall project. And so that does make him, it didn't separate him from me. He's doing the same thing that I'm doing, you know, just in a way a different way.

[00:20:35.449] Mark Clague:
So I heard that one of the things you're thinking of working with or maybe you've used before is a kind of ticker, you know, like a stock market ticker telling you what the prices are. Like back in the, you know, I think when we see things about the Great Depression, you know, you didn't have the internet and you couldn't just go online and see this. But what is a ticker and how does it fit into your work?

[00:20:52.967] Rick Lowe:
Well, okay. So, you know, like I said, the narrative of black people for me is very problematic. You know, it's all about the deficit, you know, and the wealth gap, and we have gaps in everything. And to me, that's kind of, it's not inspiring to people. It can be demoralizing. It can just help people check out, because I don't feel like there's any possibilities. So I was kind of thinking about, how do you change that? How do you shift that? And once I was listening to a senatorial report on C or something like that. And this person was saying that African Americans contributed however many billion dollars to the American economy in a particular year. And what was interesting about that was that I mean, I was like, really? Because it was a lot. Because that's not the story I'm hearing anywhere else. And then if you think about it in comparison to other groups, it may not be whatever, but just to hear it stated, I was like, wow, that's a lot. And then I started thinking, wow, that should be like Wall Street. That's the Wall Street thing. How granular can you get that? Can you get it from a year to a month, a to a week, day, by the day, by the hour. How can you get that done? And so that was kind of my initial thinking about that. But then the challenge, though, is how do you find the data? And how do you get that together? And so we've actually made some great progress on that now because we have someone else that's working with us, helping us shape it. And of course, with Kate here at ISR That's been really a great framework for us to kind of have a base that we can kind of start from.

[00:22:53.422] Abigail Winograd:
And it's how we met Kate in the first place, actually, because Rick called me to say, I'm watching C-SPAN. How do they get that number? And I said, I have no idea, but maybe we can find somebody at the University of Chicago, because that's where we were previously, who can help us with that. And I called Kate and said, I have a question. And she said, I'd be happy to help you with that. And that's, I think, when I warned her that she was, you know... If you join the team, Kate, you may be with us for a long time. It's a 25-year commitment.

[00:23:21.653] Rick Lowe:
Six years later.

[00:23:23.134] Abigail Winograd:
arc.

[00:23:24.836] Mark Clague:
So Kate, let's bring you into the conversation. So you're the director of the Institute for Social Research, which is, as I understand it, one of the largest kind of research institutes of its time. You're sort of known for statistics and consumer sentiment surveys and a lot of numbers, a lot of data. You are not known for art, right? Yet. Yet, but that is changing. So what's up with that?

[00:23:49.798] Rick Lowe:
Well, I'll say I wanted to pick up on something that Abby shared about why I found this project so compelling. And I think then that's a nice bridge to how we're thinking about art and social sciences. When we had our initial conversations and thinking about what that ticker might read out. And so typically we think about the ticker as something that reads the health and well-being of the stock market in some sense. And so what emerged from our conversations was why can't it read out the health and well-being of communities, the health and well-being of generations, the health and well-being of our population at large. And so really through all of these kinds of interactions, thought the arts are really a bellwether for social circumstances, social challenges, social change. And I guess I always found exciting the conversation between arts and the social sciences. And it was where in this conversation today we can think, oh, I'm posing a question to Abby and she says it back to me and she articulates it in a more effective way than I posed it initially. And that's what I see in this work. That what I'm trying to engage in in the social sciences, Abby and Rick say back to me in a manner that's potentially more effective.

[00:25:02.856] Mark Clague:
That's interesting. So art becomes a different lens and working with artists becomes a different way of articulating problems that sociologists and professors like yourself have been working on for all these years and yet you're finding it's deepening the quality of your work to be working with artists.

[00:25:20.355] Rick Lowe:
Absolutely. And I think it's a conversation. And I think that really innovative art asks profound questions about our social circumstance. And that pushes me to at least attempt to ask questions that are weightier, right? Because that's what the art suggests. And I think it's exciting to have Abby and Rick in this space and teaching with Christian. And I love it that we're hosting this course within our walls that people are excited. I gave a state of the eye the other day, which is our annual report on the well-being of the Institute for Social Research. Well, it's meant to be infused in all we do. And I thought, okay, people are saying this to me in meetings. I want to see it.

[00:26:07.026] Mark Clague:
can make it happen. And so, Rick, how does it change your work to be working with social scientists? I mean, data and research has been part of your practice for quite a while.

[00:26:15.474] Rick Lowe:
Yeah, well, you know, I I've really, really benefited greatly from being in this class with Kristen, though, because, you know, we challenge each other in interesting ways and ways that we should, right? My side is that, you know, well, you know, okay, that may be, you may find the data that says that, but how does that experience make people feel, though, too? You know, how people think about things sometimes is as important as what the reality is, you know? And then, so he would come back and he would kind of you know push it back though to the but you can think about it this way as much as you want but the reality is still going to be what it is and that kind of stuff so we constantly kind of move back and forth on that which has been really great for me.

[00:27:00.982] Christian Davenport:
He's definitely reminded me how he's definitely I've never felt like I'm not the most I study human rights violations and political violence right so I'm not the most joyous individual but I've never felt like the dark looming individual of negativity until I'm interacting with Rick, so I think it's a nice counterbalance, right? I'm just like, yeah, I'm glad they felt that way, but caloric intake hit below 2,000, so they're not going to last too long. So I think it's a nice counterbalance that we have that in this yin and yang sense just gets us to this space where it's like, okay, that's very useful to kind of be grounded there, but also think of how you could be inspired or transformed by this particular perspective. And then Abby, also a very positive person, will kind of chime in with something else that then perturbs it even further, and then we're grounding it back in sunlight like land inequality issue, or black farmers getting pushed off over here, or police, anti-black police statistics. And so it's like, it's a nice conversation that provokes us in a variety of different ways that I think has

[00:27:57.483] Mark Clague:
been- So that's really advancing your thinking as a researcher.

[00:27:59.846] Rick Lowe:
Oh, and it's been interesting to watch the students and how they have responded to this task. And I'm accustomed to this in general, when you talk to people about collaboration, the way that I do, and I'd say, look, I'm truly inviting you to be a part of this project. You are an integral part. If you have something to say, it is just as valuable as what I'm saying or whatever. Most people think, yeah, sure. They just sit there and sit there. It took us probably half the semester, last semester, to finally get them to realize that when I was asking them questions about what do you think about this and do you think we should approach it this way or that way, that I was really looking for them to give their input. And so that, I think, kind of opened things up. And that's how we got so many of those students back in the class this semester.

[00:28:56.586] Mark Clague:
That's amazing. And I love the sort of notion that you're creating a space of wonder rather than a space of sort of gaming for the grade. You know, like, what am I supposed to do? How do I get through this class? And that bring that humanity into it. But also, you know, the thing you've really emphasized to me about art is that it's ultimately an expression of hope, right? That making art and sort of having that notion that this is gonna make a difference is a belief that change is possible, right? absolutely. Well, we could talk for another like three hours, I'm sure. And so excited and I'm excited, Abby, if I'm taking it correct, that it won't be 25 years until we see some results. Yeah, we're gonna, so can you just, maybe to close out here, just tell us what we can expect and there's gonna be a show at ISR and at UMA?

[00:29:43.836] Abigail Winograd:
Yes, so there'll be an installation in the Sten gallery at UMA which is the if you're looking at the building the glass gallery right out front on the left right so we'll have an installation there we're thinking about I mean this project has always been thinking about public art you know data is a component of public art how do we share information so there'll be an aspect of the installation at ISR we think of those things as connected to each other but also you know we're in the process with the students and making their making several suggestions about where this project could live, have public components beyond those two kind of anchor locations, but that will happen in the winter of 2026.

[00:30:29.106] Mark Clague:
Great. Well, I'm so excited, and maybe we can have some of the students, your fellow artists in the class, come and join us once the exhibit opens. So thanks so much.

[00:30:39.299] Rick Lowe:
Thank you.

[00:30:50.849] Mark Clague:
Creative Currents is a project of the University of Michigan Arts Initiative. Please subscribe to hear more great conversations with artists, scholars, and arts leaders from across the campus and across the globe. Send your comments and suggestions via email to creativecurrents at umich.edu. This episode of Creative Currents was produced by Mark Clegg and Jessica Jenks, and our audio engineer is Audrey Banks. Our original theme music is composed and performed by Ansel Neely, a student at the University of Michigan's School of Music, Theater, and Dance. To learn more about the University of Michigan's Arts initiative, please visit our website at arts.umich.edu. Thanks for listening.