U-M Creative Currents

Wallace House Arts Journalism Fellowship: Anastasia Tsioulcas, 2024-25

• Arts Initiative • Season 3 • Episode 10

Share episode

In this episode of U-M Creative Currents, we sit down with NPR’s correspondent and New York Times classical music critic Anastasia Tsioulcas—an award-winning journalist who has shaped national conversations around music, identity, and culture. As the inaugural Knight-Wallace Arts Journalism Fellow at the University of Michigan, Anastasia brings a unique perspective on the evolving role of arts journalism in a shifting media landscape.

Whether you're a journalist, arts enthusiast, educator, or student, this conversation offers a powerful reminder of why arts journalism and criticism still matters.


Season 3 ep 10: Anastasia Tsioulcas

Mark Clague: So Creative Currents is a podcast in which we talk about the arts. And as we say at the top of every episode, we, quote, explore how the arts can spark meaningful conversations about our world. Today, we're going to talk not just about the arts, but specifically about how to create those meaningful conversations with an expert in talking about the arts, arts journalist Anastasia Tsioulcas, who holds a unique dual appointment as a music critic at The New York Times and as a correspondent on National Public Radio's Culture Desk. Anastasia has been with at the University of Michigan this academic year as our first ever arts journalism fellow at Wallace House, the Center for Journalists. And she's been working with the Arts Initiative to coach students and sort of working really all across our campus in Flint and Dearborn and Ann Arbor to just really raise the energy and the level of conversation we've been having about the arts. So I'm thrilled to welcome you, Anastasia, to our Creative Currents podcast.

Anastasia Tsioulcas: Thanks so much for having me, Mark. It's a real pleasure.

Mark Clague: So let's dive right in. Can you tell us just what it means to be an arts journalist and a critic and why that's so important?

Anastasia Tsioulcas: Sure. So I can say a little bit about traditionally what it's like and sort of my career, which has gone down a couple of different paths.

Mark Clague: Really interesting directions. Yeah,

Anastasia Tsioulcas: yeah. I've flown under the radar for much of my career, which has given me sort of the scope to do kind of what I want and create sort of a new path for me, which I'm really gratified about. So, yeah, so what I do on the journalism side, straight journalism, and I'm a full-time correspondent for the National Network of NPR, which means that I appear on flagship programs like Morning Edition and All Things Considered nationally. I also do a lot of podcast appearances for the network and do sort of breaking news. I do long-form analysis. I do profiles, both for the radio and for text. And then for the New York Times, I'm very happy to write criticism for them, and that's very focused on classical music criticism, which is home base for me. So just to sort of point out, because people don't necessarily understand those terms, so the journalism is straight journalism, just like my colleagues on, say, the National Desk or the Washington Desk or the economics team report on what's happening in those spheres right then and there. That's what I do on the culture, arts and culture side for NPR. And then criticism is really what you think it is in terms of what we get out of the experiences of having art in our lives, you know, individual performances, broader themed ideas, and that's really critical and subjective—so subjective I should say—critical and subjective whereas the reporting side is really objective reporting and analysis.

Mark Clague: Yeah I'm really, I'm fascinated with sort of the where that starts to blur a little bit. I mean because of course when you're being objective you're also choosing what's important to talk about and what to highlight and so it's news and it's facts but it's also you're also saying we should care about this so there, there is something there. And of course you know I think, I think about this as a—so I'm a music historian in my other, other life and part of what I talk about with my students is that if we understand, if we know more about the arts that it does sort of spark that level of meaning. There's just more that we can connect with. It's a richer experience. I think sometimes people think, well, the arts are supposed to speak to me in this kind of aesthetic way or this almost subconscious way beyond words, and yet you and I deal with words, right? We've started trying to communicate things about the arts. How do you think that your work really contributes to the way people experience the arts or understand the arts or the way really our society values the arts?

Anastasia Tsioulcas: A couple of things, and you've given me so much to think about, too, just in that question. I think on both sides of my career, it's about providing context and amplification. You know, one thing that I've thought for a long time, working in the arts as a journalist, as a critic, is its own sort of advocacy for the arts and the importance, and I would say the centrality of the arts in our lives, you know, as a way of cultivating experience, of processing experience, of building collective and individual memory, all those things. And I think that that sort of creating forums in text or in broadcast or podcast or what have you is just platforms for these kinds of conversations, illuminations. And I think, so I would say that my role is sort of within the arts community is, is to some extent an advocate, maybe not for individual work, but for the centrality of the arts, the performing arts, visual arts, et cetera, overall. And what was the other part of the question? There was so much in there. I—

Mark Clague: I think you pretty much hit it out of the park. I mean, that was sort of what I was getting at, was what is the value to society? And you can't advocate as a journalist. You have to be objective. You have to be disconnected from your subjects. And often you're being critical of your subjects. Yes. But the fact that you're there, the fact that you're talking about it is emphasizing that the arts are part of our world. Yes. And they're part of what provides that meaning. And I would say that, I mean, the Arts Initiative and Wallace House came together to create this Arts Journalism Fellowship, in part because we felt like this kind of conversation was becoming more and more rare, that a lot of news outlets were actually pulling away from arts criticism. And they were maybe where they had specialists in music and theater and dance and visual arts. They now had, if we were lucky, sort of one critic working all of those beats. So can you talk to—I know this year you've been spending time being very aware of sort of the whole field and changes. And of course, even in the last day, it seems like every day things are changing these days. What is the current state of arts journalism? And what is sort of maybe a little bit of hope, but also is there a concern for how things are going right now?

Anastasia Tsioulcas: Well, you're absolutely right. We are at absolutely an inflection point and a pressure point for arts journalism, both in this local area I think it's fair to say, and nationally as well. And figuring out ways of supporting journalists in such a direct way as the Arts Initiative has and as Knight Wallace has, Wallace House has, has been incredible for me individually, of course, but I think it is a real beacon for journalists around the country. You know, I'm not, as you well know, I'm not the first arts journalist to participate in this kind of fellowship at the University of Michigan, but I am capital A, capital J, capital F, first Arts Journalism Fellow to be supported this way. And I think of it as an investment not just in me and my own work, for sure, not at all, but as a broader measure of support for this community. And throughout the year, I have been leading an arts workshop, an arts journalism workshop for undergraduates across all three campuses. And I have been so, so gratified to see the growth of the students in that workshop and to see their engagement with all these different art forms, with their own thoughts, intellectual thoughts, creative thoughts, and processes, right? Because what I'm asking of them week after week is to really go deep and interrogate not just their feelings and not just to sort of produce hot takes on what they're seeing. But really ask something that I ask of myself as a journalist when I'm covering this work or as a critic, which is what do you think the creator's mission was in creating this work? Do you think that the creators, the artists, accomplished what you understood to be their goals? Tell us a little bit about it. Tell us the readership, the audience, about that work and reflect on what you drew away from the experience. And I feel really strongly that arts criticism can be an amazing vehicle for self-exploration for the writers and for the audiences. You know, I tend to reject a very commercialistic thumbs up, thumbs down, spend your time, spend your money on a given performance, a given exhibition, a given book, what have you, but really sort of use it as a point of intellectual departure for you and for your audience. And I will say also the students this year have been just extraordinary in engaging with each other's work, which has been incredible. My understanding, this is such an amazing place with so many possibilities for students, for faculty, for administration, but especially in terms of all three campuses interacting, there's maybe less of an opportunity to do that on a regular basis. And to see these students interacting with each other and respond to each other with wit, intelligence, compassion, kindness, the way that I get to experience every time our workshop meets has been incredibly gratifying.

Mark Clague: No, I had the pleasure, as you know, of visiting one of those workshop sessions. And, you know, I can say one thing for me has been interesting is that I've been following the Art Scene blog as the students publish their work. And they often will inspire me to go check out a specific exhibit at, say, the University Museum of Art or at Stamps Gallery. Thank you so much.

[Editor's note: There appears to be a significant gap or technical issue in the original transcript here. The content jumps suddenly without clear transition.]

We often think of undergraduates as preparing for a career, that they're sort of these diamonds in the rough or this clay that's being shaped for future potential. But each one of the writers you were working with, I've really had a voice already. Like there were ways in which they spoke in a very personal and distinctive and exciting way for me as a professor used to looking at student work, but seeing a kind of spark and a liveliness to the prose in these students that you might not see in the average academic paper where everybody is writing to the same prompt, right? They were really doing something that they felt a real ownership of. And is that something that you encouraged and nurtured? Is it something that they brought to the table and you just sort of, you were so positive in the way you endorsed their work that I just, I really felt that you were supporting that and I was so impressed.

Anastasia Tsioulcas: Oh, thank you. That is a bouquet of compliments. So thank you for all of them. Yes, it is something I've absolutely tried to encourage and we've talked about all year long is, is the difference in the voice and craft of this writing and the architecture of these kinds of critiques that separates it from academic writing and makes it distinct and different. And I do encourage them to explore their own voices. And the structure is different. Undergraduates come into these kinds of experiences, especially at as fine a school as Michigan, with a very set idea of argument, thesis, arguments, and conclusion. And I'm trying to get them to write with a very different voice in terms of lead a reader in, create an opening sentence that really leads someone in. Then you can sort of let it unfurl and then maybe do a callback in the end. So it's a very different structure. It's a very different pace. Another thing we've talked about, for example, this year is how a written piece would differ in storytelling style and architecture and syntax even than a piece for broadcast or for podcast or an oral experience, A-U-R-A-L, is so different. Or the other way too, a spoken experience is so different than how you might explain something in text. So we've been exploring that as well. How do you structure pieces differently? And yeah, I've really tried to encourage them to bring that, that very deeply personal reaction into their work. And again, not to do it as a hot take. We live in a universe of hot takes, whether it's TikTok videos or literally thumbs up, thumbs down, or a percentage on Rotten Tomatoes or what have you. There's so much in our culture, all of our shared culture right now, that is driven by those quick dopamine hits of instantaneous reactions, instantaneous embraces, instantaneous rejections. And I am so gratified that they're all exploring in much deeper levels and more rigorous levels as well.

Mark Clague: Yeah, that really resonates with me. The arts are actually an opportunity to be more thoughtful and to take more time to really engage with things. Well, the students have clearly grown a lot this year, but I'm curious what you've taken away from this year as a Knight-Wallace fellow. What's the experience like of being in that Knight-Wallace cohort, and what are you taking away with you as far as things you've learned?

Anastasia Tsioulcas: So much. I mean, honestly, I think I'm going to be processing this experience for years to come, and that's what previous fellows have told me as well, that you have this experience in the moment and in the year, and the resonances of it play out for many, many years to come in ripple effects. So I'm sure that I'm only going to skim the surface right now of all of that. First of all, it's been so gratifying to see arts journalism in parity with my peers who are exploring other topics. I have friends here, fellow fellows, who are war reporters. I have fellow fellows here who are working on all kinds of subjects, whether it's immigration, and very topical and timely right now, immigration in the United States, environmental changes and climate disasters, you know, the expanse of it, human rights in Afghanistan, like the kind of the panoply of what the news covers. And for an arts journalist to be right there, too, has tremendous significance to me. Filmmakers, you know, all kinds of people, documentary filmmakers. So that's one huge thing. And it's really incredible, encouraging to see our work in that same sphere as well. The experience this year also has been a lot about engaging with thinkers and newsroom leaders who are really grappling with what journalism of all kinds means in 2025 and what the future is. And we talked a little bit already about the economic challenges to journalism. We sort of alluded to it. Those are very real. What it means to do local reporting in a time in which we have so many news deserts across this country and certainly you said it too, you know, arts journalism can be a particular desert, you know, that there are very few journalists at many legacy publications and newer publications too. Either there's no arts journalism coverage or there's very, very little or the journalists and critics are spread so thin. It's sort of jack-of-all-trades, you know, which has its own challenges and difficulties. So to think about the arts journalism and arts criticism within that larger context has been a huge opportunity. And we have seminars two, three days a week speaking to journalists and editors and entrepreneurs from across the country and internationally as well who are engaging in these topics every day. So to see my work within that larger sphere and make huge new connections, connections all over this campus, all over the entire set of three campuses for U of M has been enormous, tremendous as well. And I'm so grateful for it.

Mark Clague: That's fantastic. Well, you're working on a project and have been talking with arts and cultural organizations throughout Southeast Michigan and Detroit. And I know you're working on some stories, so you probably can't tell us all the secret details that are going to come out later. But what are you learning from the cultural organizations? I know you've been looking into issues around diversity and representation and programming. And of course, that's changed so much since the pandemic and the sort of Black Lives Matter movement and Me Too has had a big impact on arts and culture. And then we're in this moment right now of incredible pushback against a lot of those recent changes in programming that have brought new voices and new artists into the arts cultural institutions. So it seems like a particularly amazing moment to have been looking into the topics you've been exploring.

Anastasia Tsioulcas: Yeah, it's funny. Last week or the week before, I can't remember, one of our guests at Wallace House was Kara Swisher, the podcast host and thinker, Kara Swisher. And we're all going around the room describing all of our projects. And it's like about immigration in the United States and the Haitian-American experience. And then somewhere around that time, I said, I'm looking at diversity and representation at arts organizations, and she's like, wow, this is a room full of prophets. Because so many of us came with these projects in mind months ago. When we proposed them, they were nine months ago, 10 months ago, 11 months ago. And now here we are in this moment that so many of us, myself included, the things that we have chosen as our projects are very much in the public discourse. So I could not have seen all of this stuff coming necessarily, but I knew it was important and I knew that I absolutely wanted to explore these issues. And I think you're absolutely right, you know, right now sitting here in April 2025, these things that—all these matters that had incredible resonance for the arts community a year ago—we're in a different climate, you know, political climate, social climate than we were just months ago. And it's a situation that's evolving day by day, really day by day. And right now, one of the things that fascinates me is sort of these twin tracks I'm seeing between arts organizations and academia in terms of people, how institutions and organizations are trying to grapple with the challenges they see and the ones they anticipate and see coming, maybe down the road, and sort of trying to keep to their missions and to keep to their values and also sort of try their best to anticipate several different outcomes simultaneously, I think it's fair to say. And I've had those conversations with folks working both locally and elsewhere in the nation. And I think that there are some very, very strong parallels in how those conversations within these organizations are being perceived by a wider public and sort of what's out there sort of in the air as the nation is talking about these issues in different ways. So it's fascinating to me. And I'm surely not going, just like any reporter, is surely not going to come to conclusions. But what we can do is document the moment and document the conversations and sort of be that first writing of the historical narrative and conversation.

Mark Clague: So how can we, as consumers of the arts, of arts journalism, how can we support you and the work of your colleagues today?

Anastasia Tsioulcas: Oh, that's a great question and thank you. I would say read and listen to our work if you can. Those are always ways of directly supporting. I mean, the funny thing about working in these realms in 2025 is that the organizations for which, or either the ones for which we work or the ones, you know, in case of some of my fellows, the ones that they've created themselves, we have pretty instantaneous granular analysis of who is reading our work and, you know, literally down to how many paragraphs they get into before they

Mark Clague: stop. You're spying on us. I don't know.

Anastasia Tsioulcas: Someone is. That's not my job, but, you know, I certainly have colleagues whose jobs are to think about that. So really, it means a ton to us that you take the time and to respond if you feel passionately. One of the things that I think about a lot is that I hope that the conversations that I'm a part of are a framework for the larger community to talk to each other. I see my platforms and I'm very, very aware of how lucky I am to have the platforms I have through the national and international organization to which I contribute. But I hope then some—and then become a forum for larger community conversations or even conversely smaller community conversations about the meaning of art and what we find in it and the emotional connections that we can build. It's not just about the aesthetics. It's about those emotional—deep emotional and intellectual connections.

Mark Clague: Yeah, and we can realize that community in the responses we—the comments we make to an article. People are counting views and shares and comments. Which they are. Which they are. And they should be, right? They should be seeing where people are. But that leads, I think, to that kind of clickbait kind of publication because it encourages interaction and encourages anger or passion or whatever. But if we feel passionate about the arts and it behooves us to interact with the writing that's out there that is more thoughtful, it does take more than just two seconds to engage with. And if we use it and share it and comment and bring our community together around your work, then presumably people will be counting those interactions and it'll matter. So we're just so excited to have had you here this year. I feel so grateful that you were, you know, our first official arts journalism fellow with the Arts Initiative and Knight Wallace. And you've been so generous, I think, in what you've given to our students and to our community, just the energy you've brought to our campus. And so I can't think of a better person to have kicked off this new tradition of an arts journalism fellow at Michigan. And I hope that we have many, many more such fellows in the years to come. So thank you so much.

Anastasia Tsioulcas: Thank you. And thank you again for the opportunity. Thank you for welcoming me so deeply. And you particularly, Mark, and the Arts Initiative and more broadly, this has been an incredible experience. I'm so grateful for it. And I am so, even more than anything else, so grateful that there will be more after me, that I'm just one of hopefully at least several to come and that it's a long-term, sustained commitment. It means the world to me and to my colleagues.

Mark Clague: Well, you're very welcome. Thank you so much.

Anastasia Tsioulcas: Thank you.

Mark Clague: Creative Currents is a project of the University of Michigan Arts Initiative. Please subscribe to hear more great conversations with artists, scholars, and arts leaders from across the campus and across the globe. Send your comments and suggestions via email to creativecurrents at umich.edu. This episode of Creative Currents was produced by Mark Clague and Jessica Jenks, and our audio engineer is Audrey Banks. Our original theme music is composed and performed by Ansel Neely, a student at the University of Michigan's School of Music, Theater, and Dance. To learn more about the University of Michigan's Arts Initiative, please visit our website at arts.umich.edu. Thanks for listening.