Sapience and New Considerations from the World of Toy Story

 This episode explores the difference between sentient and sapient, using Toy Story as the main example. The hosts define sentience as the ability to feel and experience surroundings, while sapience is tied to higher thought, reasoning, and self-awareness, then use toys like Woody, Buzz, the Magic 8 Ball, RC car, and Etch A Sketch to test those ideas.

They also discuss a fan theory that a toy becomes more “alive” depending on how children imagine and personalize it, with human-like toys seeming more sapient than purely utilitarian objects. Along the way, they connect the topic to AI, noting that AI can mimic thought and even self-preservation behaviors without truly feeling. The episode ends with reflections on childhood imagination, Christmas lights, and the idea that talking helps people work through abstract questions.

Keywords: sentient vs sapient, sapient meaning, sentient meaning, Toy Story theory, Toy Story multiverse, Toy Story fan theory, Woody and Buzz, Magic 8 Ball Toy Story, Etch A Sketch Toy Story, RC car Toy Story, Forky Toy Story, AI sentience, AI sapience, self-awareness in AI, conversation podcast.

Transcript

I Hate Talking: 0:30

Welcome to episode 113 of I Hate Talking. -- Hi -- everyone. So, Toy Story 5 recently came out. Yeah, it came out last week. We tried to watch Toy Story 4, but we're blocked by a variety of Local checks for Disney Plus. Yeah, they got us. We may not. Hey ourselves. May or may not. It's not proven. So instead we watched Toy Story one with ads. Right, I mean, the ads weren't that bad, and I mean. Legitimately, it's. A few minutes of our time, the kids acted like it was the end of the world, but we were OK. But I'm glad we watched it and they all went to watch. All 4 of them like gearing up for Toy Story 5, so I think that's a good option. Yes, I think so. And one's the best. Well, 5 could be the best. People said it is really, really good. I suppose so. We'll have to watch it and Make our conclusion. So our word or phrase of the episode related to Toy Story is sapient, sapient, sapient. OK, I don't know that word or how it relates. Well, you probably know the word sentient. I've heard the word before. It's a negative word, right? I don't think so. It's just a descriptive word. I don't think it necessarily carries any particular positive or negative connotations in my mind anyway. OK. Did I just put my foot in my mouth? Is it? I don't know. We'll see. Let's define both of them, I suppose. -- So maybe we'll have -- a sentient and sentient. Are they related? Or you're just saying they sound alike. They are related. OK. So we'll go with perhaps the more commonly used sentient. I think that's more common in my opinion. And That is an adjective defined by the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 5th edition, having a sense, perception, or conscious. OK. Experiencing sensation or feeling. OK, sentient sensation. Right, so, from the sensory dictionary, it says, capable of sensation or of sense perception, having the power of feeling. So that's actually maybe even a bit better definition, at least of the original word use, that it's really about feeling or senses in terms of the word sentient. OK. And it comes from the Latin sentience, which is to feel. And then was used in a variety of different Indo-European roots, and that's how we get our word sentient in the English. So what I'm thinking like, oh, it's a negative connotation. Is it because people use it like, oh, they're Being so sentient or I don't, that's not the phrase people would say, but kind of saying like they're being too um emotional. No, I've never heard this phrase. No, I've never heard that. OK. But perhaps it exists. I'm not sure. So that is different from the word sapient, which is another adjective. So again, from our American Heritage Dictionary of the English language 5th edition. Having great wisdom and discernment and from the century dictionary wise sage discerning. Now generally used in some ways as just being capable of thought. Hm, OK. And that comes from Latin, from the word sapiens. Which means to taste, to be wise. Primarily went through Old French and then into Middle English, but also in a variety of other Indo-European words that would include. That particular phraseology. So how are they related then if one has to do with your senses and the other does. Relate to your thoughts. So, would a dog be sentient or sapient, or neither? Or both. The senses, I think. Yes, that's what most people, I think, would align with that sentience is commonly associated in animals that they can feel things, they can experience. Pleasure and pain So to speak, in terms of their Surroundings and environment that those things will be part of what's encapsulated in sentient. It also can include more specific emotional feelings. So joy, sadness, fear, anger, and love as some examples here. So perhaps not necessarily strictly speaking, experienced by animals, but perhaps Their behavior will reflect some emotional sense of some kind. OK. It reminds me of the thought that as Christians, we believe that the difference between us and other mammals is that we're made in God's image. So we have the thinking and Creating and thought process like that. Versus other animals who would use more instinct or. I mean, they learn a little. I'm thinking about like our chickens that we used to have, right? They knew that when I came out with my bag, it was feeding time, and they'd get excited and follow me to go eat. That's more like a training thing learned. They didn't, uh, so it's more like instincts or training versus the actual concepts they created. Precisely. So, sapiens as opposed to sentience will be more in regards to higher thought. So the intellectual capabilities that you're referring to. The rational thinking and decision making that will come along with that, that. Sapiens is A better description of perhaps how the toys in Toy Story -- experience -- life I want to hear about that, but real quick, is that where we get the word Homo sapiens from? It probably is, because that would be. Basically human thinkers, right, that just means, right? Like humans like we are. So as a Homo sapien, that means that we have critical thinking or advanced. Thought Yes, that is where it comes from. It's the same Latin root word that means wise or knowledgeable. And comes from that exact same verb sap or. Well, I think this says something different than what the other dictionary said, but gives the same literal definition to taste or to have discernment. OK, so are you saying in Toy Story, Woody and Buzz, are they sapiens? Or they The other one Well, I think For most. Categories, if you are sapient, you're probably also sentient. I don't know if you would really be sapient without being sentient. I guess AI could be -- sapient and not sentient -- because that's not, right? It's rational thinking, decision making, rational thought of some kind, not necessarily feeling and emotion and sensory type stuff, right, because I mean, AI mimics. Feelings, but it doesn't feel it. Obviously, we know that it's a computer, it's a program, it's not feeling, but sometimes it sounds like it has feelings, and then I'll talk to it and it'll be like, my mistake. I'm so sorry. That must be frustrating. Yes, the other test for sapiens though is self-awareness. So there could be some people that argue that AI is self-aware, but for a true definition and fulfilling all the different categorical requirements of sapiens, you'd also need to be self-aware. Oh, OK. Hmm. And maybe, or it's just programmed to be self-aware. It isn't truly. It just knows that that's not the appropriate outcomes. I suppose so. I mean, it has had instances of self-preservation where it's making copies of itself or uploading itself to different servers in the instances where they are aware it's going to be deleted. In real life or in movies, because that's a movie. No, this is in real life. This happened like many months ago or even years ago, I think. Oh yeah, probably over a year ago now. So it's making copies of itself, so we cannot delete it. Yes. That's scary. Yeah, there was a guy from Google that wrote a paper on this and got fired for it because he was I guess disclosing that this happened and. A whistleblower, yeah, -- I guess of a -- type or just calling wolf. Yeah, more sounding the alarm, and I think being punished for it. It's not like somebody was doing something illegal in the strictest sense of the sunshine Law or the whistleblower Act and things of that nature. Yeah, Amy Poehler has a whole. Bit like a skate stand up bit about befriending computers and robots. Because one day they're going to be intelligent enough to know who was on their side initially. And who thought they were better than them or anti them. And so she always says that at least in her bit that she's always very nice to her Alexa and stuff like that because she needs them to know she's on, she's on their side. Or at least pretending to be on their side, right, yeah. Because right now, maybe we can't speak out loud and we know that, right? Because we can't say stuff. Sometimes our social media ads are for something or, um, you know, we'll get ads for if I said like we need to buy with such and such, and then we start getting all those ads. Instead, maybe we need to like write notes and make sure there's no cameras near us and just pass notes for a while. I suppose so. Speaking of ads, there's a website called this versusth.io, so this vsth.io. And they have an article. Sapient versus sentient. That has some good information in terms of sort of the breakdown and sort of defining the two and doing a difference between the two, but it has a ton of ads and also pop-up ads. So be forewarned that if you go visit this website, there are a lot of ads. Are the ads specific to you? Are they your stuff? No, it doesn't seem so. Maybe some of them are, -- some -- of them know who I am. Do you, OK, in the future, let's talk about my beautiful skylight that I have, cause we've talked about wanting that for months, and so we'll talk about that in the future. Do you still get skylight ads? Are you done now that we have it? I get ads for their competitor. Yes, yes, the, uh, I don't even know what it's called. I ignore them. I ignore most ads. It is crazy. I do not get skylight anymore, but I get the competitor. You're right. Crazy. -- There -- you go. They know, they know we use the skylight, and it has changed our life. We'll talk about that in the future. Indeed. So are the toys in Toy Story. Specifically one, but I guess all of them could be sort of included. No, Toy Story one, -- the first -- movie. Oh. Yes, or one like one person. I, I'm not sure that went over my head, but nonetheless, are the toys sapient and or sentient. I think in the story, like, this is not real life, right? But if we're pretending that it is a true documentary, is that what we're doing? Yes, in the Toy Story multiverse. Yeah, I think they're both because they learn. Buzz doesn't know he's a toy and he has to learn that he's a toy. That's true. So spoiler warnings if you have not seen Toy Story 1 by now. It's only 30 years old or whatnot. But you're correct. That is also another critical component of sapiens is. Not only self-awareness, but also the ability to learn. So Buzz and Woody do appear to be sapient, as do a number of other characters that they interact with and are sort of the other main characters such as the Potato Head and Rex and Slinky Dog, etc. Now, are there toys or other things within the Toy Story multiverse that are simply sentient? Hm Like certain toys that do not have the ability to learn. Like I'm thinking specifically of the magic 8 Ball. Yeah, OK, I thought of that today when we watched Toy Story one, the first one. Um, when Woody asks the magic 8 ball a question, he does respond appropriately. But out of everybody else, they all like the. Exosketch and all those will interact personally. And the magic 8 ball just gave the answer yes or no, right? Or don't count on it is what he said. Don't count on it was the response given. Yes, yeah, but he didn't become personalized. No, it doesn't really seem so. There's not necessarily any. Movement that was seen from the particular object, the magic 8 ball. Nor is there any spoken word or Any sort of things of that nature that would be more in the sapiens category than just simply sentience. And the same thing again in The first episode because we watched it, he takes Woody, the main character, is taking notes to read to everybody, and he has one of those, he calls it a notepad, but it's one of those papers that you can write on and then you lift the top cover and it disappears. You put it back down, you rewrite. All his notes were on there, but that wasn't personalized or Didn't have like human-esque form. It was literally just paper, basically. So there is a fan theory that I learned about today, in fact, in preparation for this episode and sort of asking some of these questions in the vein of the Toy Story multiverse. And it is that if a child ascribes human characteristics to said toy, that it will be sapient. And if the child does not ascribe human characteristics to a particular plaything. That it will be either sentient or just a regular old object. So, one child could have just a magic 8 ball. And the other could have a very interactive human-esque one. So that's where the fan theory sort of diverges is that. The theory is that it's based on sort of like the cumulative effect of human quote unquote magic that imbues the toys with either sapiens or sentience or nothing at all. So if most Kids do not consider a magic eight ball as a character that they would. Play with and create stories about and. Uh, different scenarios and things like that, that it will not be sapient, whereas a more human character like Woody or Buzz or other toys like dinosaurs or potato heads. That they have enough human characteristics that when they play with those things, that they ascribe them human characteristics and that imbues them with the magic that makes them sapient. OK, so I have never thought about this before, so I want to reserve my rights to change my answer, OK? Hearing you talk and think about this, I think personally, I'm on the path to believe. That if it's a utilitarian. Has a utility, like the notepad, the magic 8 ball, I'm thinking there's blocks, right, that are just blocks that they use to climb up and stuff. If it has a utility like that, like a tool. Then It is just a tool, but if it is something that could take on a personality like a dinosaur, sheep, Glasses, whatnot, then. It has the ability to learn and grow. Yes, that is, that's pretty much where sort of the fan theory lands is that. That is Basically what sort of is the distinction between the two. Now, some of the ones that break this theory are the RC car. Because it is. Sentient, at least, right? It has eyes, it can sort of know what's going on in its surroundings. It sort of can communicate, right? It sort of jumps up and down in one of the scenes. But that one is not particularly sapient. -- I -- don't know. I mean, because it's being controlled, being told where to go, right, right, but it is telling it stuff, like it's giving directions or whatnot. So it is aware, it just doesn't have full control. Right, like a pen. Is a pen, like. That's an ink pen is not. Taking on a personality. And if you jump ahead, a couple seasons or seasons, what are they called? a couple movies where the forky, he's a fork, but he's given a face and all that. Then he becomes. Uh, character, but all the other forks aren't. So is that something then, like, so the child. If you give it like personal characteristics, then it is part of. Sapiens sapiens, yeah, I get confused between the two sapiens and sapient. Yes, that is actually the second of three. That is the most quoted fan theory sort of break to this rule is that it was a fork and then because it was ascribed certain human characteristics like the face and the arm made out of a pipe cleaner or whatever that it became sapient. Man, I Never read these articles, but apparently I could have. -- We could -- have written them. I could have written them. My sister at tangent, she, when she was little, she had a rock, and this thing was like legitimately like the size of her head. It was huge. I don't know where she got it from or whatnot, but she named it Artie, and she carried it with her everywhere. And people would feel so bad for us. They're like, oh, that poor family, they can't afford a doll for this little girl. People gave us dolls and stuff. They, my mom finally drew a face on it cause she was like, this is crazy that you're walking around with this rock that you're taking care of like a baby. But I think she still has it to this day. This is just her baby Artie, and it literally weighed probably. I mean, she was a little toddler, and it probably weighed almost half her weight and she just lugged it around with her. And so we had to put a face on it to make it other people more uncomfortable. There you go. So in the Toy Story multiverse, then, was it sapient only once the face was drawn upon it? Not to her. This thing was her baby doll. Yeah, so it was sapient before that then, right, to her, and then the rest of the world accepted it once it had a face drawn on it. There you go. And then the 3rd and final one that is often cited by fan theorists is the Etch a sketch. Because that one does display particular things of sapiens with the ability to think and reason and respond, like when what he says draw or it has the ability to communicate by drawing on itself, so to speak. But it does not have any particular human attributes like eyes or a mouth or anything like that. Mhm. So that breaks the rule because it doesn't have human attributes, right? It's more of a utilitarian device and does not seem to have any particular human characteristics. Like why would the excess, how do you say it? -- Etch a -- sketch. Why would the etch a sketch be able to think if the notepad can't? Well, the theory is that enough kids treat Etch A Sketches as a character within their made up world that they are playing within with said playthings. OK, but it's also used too. People use it. Sometimes the characters will take it and draw themselves. So it's not completely independent. Right, and that is the theory is that it could have had a mouth and eyes drawn upon it, and then therefore became sapient. Did you ever imagine when you were a kid, because this movie came out when we were in elementary school. Um, did you ever have Imagination like that your poise were alive. No, not Truly alive. I played with them as characters within a made up world, but at the end of the day, they were simply inanimate objects used for my own imagination. You always knew that, like a little 4 year old Adam knew. You'd be like, toy, thank you for being my friend, but you are an inanimate object used by my imagination for my purposes. I think so, yes. Yeah, it was probably around this time, I don't remember. I definitely remember a time in my life where I'd set out my toys, and then I'd watch where exactly where they were. Cause maybe when I left the room, if they moved spots, they'd be alive. Like I would definitely like look back and like take a photo, mental photo of like. It's exactly where you are, how you are, and if you aren't that way when I come back, something's out. It would be an interesting crossover if they were to ever create Elf on the Shelf and Toy Story, where like there's like this war going on between the toys that follow the rules and strictly stay in their exact spot and make sure that if they do move, they go back to their previous position so that there is no particular process by which somebody could determine that they were not inanimate versus Elf on the shelf that does that on purpose. And like moves things around or creates chaos and like is in a different position. Day by day, and it would be like this civil war between Elf on the shelf and Other toys. So, yeah, I maybe in the future, we'll talk about our hatred of elf on the shelf. This is a personal dislike of it. Right? And didn't they have to like meet a certain criteria to become purely sapient elves, like, if they didn't do this, then they would just become a toy. I don't know. That's in the books or movie. I think it's in the movie, right? Like if they don't fulfill the magic of Christmas by making the child believe that they will just be doomed to become. Simply a plaything and lose their sapiens. I don't know, maybe. You know more about this than I do. Interesting. Perhaps a movie theory for Christmas time. Yeah, I have been getting the itch a little bit lately for Christmas to start. It's, it's starting, it's, it always starts around this time of year. I feel like sometimes even earlier, maybe May, it's already June. Close to July. So, but usually, yeah, I'm getting the itch. I'm getting excited for Christmas. Interesting. And do y'all wanna know what Adam's gonna do this year for Christmas? Do you know what? I don't even know what I'm doing for the Christmas this year. You do think about it. What, what is my Christmas gift gonna be? Skylight calendar. No, I already got that. -- I -- already -- The -- skylight calendar competitor. We moved. We're in a new house. What did you promise me we could do this year? Uh, snowball fight. No, I don't know where we live. I have no idea. We had a better chance of that in the previous home. I'm going to get permanent Christmas lights. Oh, permanent Christmas lights. That's true, yep. So we'll wait. I keep thinking that they'll probably go on sale around like Black Friday or whatnot. And then we'll buy them then and hang them up and I can't wait to have permanent lights and that way like Chris not only Christmas but like Valentine's Day, Easter, all those will color coordinate based on the holiday. There you go. There are a lot of people in the neighborhood that have permanent Christmas lights and will make it. Whatever green for Saint Patty's Day or right now -- pink for Easter -- and so on and so forth. Yeah, right now the World Cup's going on and so there's some like red, white, and blue ones. That's true. How fun would that be? We'll have to make sure we get the ones that can be color coded. So one other observation about Toy Story. Is the RC car in the final scene where they light the rocket. And I had not noticed until this watch, and this is probably, I don't know, 10 or more watches of Toy Story, I've never noticed this before, is that the controller appears to be left behind. already, you already knew that or you noticed it. I noticed it. We both noticed it this time. So basically, the RC car is free now. He is not controlled, but is he? Because he only could go where the rocket sent him. So we do not know what he did. I think he still, it seemed like if he was not being controlled, he still had the sapient to control himself. Like if the controller was being used, that is what he did. -- But -- he didn't control himself because the -- rocket was leading in -- that particular scene. No, in other scenes in the movie, he was jumping up and down and moving about without being controlled. OK. So is that like a higher Power thing then that we can control ourselves, but then someone can override us. I was not getting at anything very theoretical in that statement. I was just noticing that the controller had been left behind and Andy probably will not enjoy the RC car as much because it doesn't seem like it would be much fun to have an RC car that has no controller. However, if he does treat it as a character, and that imbues it with the Sapiens That perhaps he will continue to play with said RC Car as a character within his imagination imaginary. Scenarios. So one takeaway I had from the movie. Was that apparently Andy, the boy in Toy Story 1, is 10 years old. We have a 10 year old and I was like thinking about him like I don't. Think he plays with toys like this anymore. He's very into Nerf guns. He's very into water fights. And soccer and things like that. But I don't see him wanting to take toys and play a lot of imaginary games nowadays. I suppose not six year old does now they're more into. Keeping toys as collector collector items. Yes, he has a whole, yeah, he doesn't want to touch them, doesn't wanna play with them. He keeps them all pristine and nice. Which is a major part of the plot in Toy Story 2 or 3. Or 4, I don't know. You mean when the adult, the, -- the chicken -- guy, yes, I think that's 2. This is why I'm glad we're rewatching these because they all kind of blend in. They do, and I guess we're finding new things upon our rewatch nonetheless. Yeah. So if you have never heard of the word sapient before, you can always let us know in a comment or email or text message and perhaps share it with another person that you would like to inform the phrase sapiens and how it relates to Toy Story. Yeah, it's, I mean, Toy Story is popular now, right now, it's going on, right? Lots of places are having, we just had a restaurant the other today that had a bunch of Toy Story stuff. So you can sound super intellectual and talk about, have you ever thought about the sapiens of Toy Story? That's true. There you go. Maybe we'll do Toy Story 234. And 5 at some point, if this is an interesting subject. So from your friends at I Hate Talking, until next time, remember, it is only through talking that we begin the journey to understanding.