Scratchwerk ^EDU
"Scratchwerk ^Edu," hosted by Ronnie King, CEO of Scratchwerk Tech and founder of the MyVillage Project, is a dynamic podcast at the nexus of Black communities, technology, business, education, and current events. Each episode dives deep into the role of emerging technologies in promoting equity, enhancing workforce development, and reshaping education.
Join Ronnie as he explores how technology can be leveraged to uplift and empower marginalized communities through insightful discussions with experts, activists, and innovators. From the practicalities of tech entrepreneurship to the impact of community-led initiatives, "Scratchwerk Edu" is an essential resource for anyone interested in the intersection of technology and social change.
Learn about the success of tech incubators such as "Coding in Color", which has trained over 2,000 students in emerging skills and secured over $800k in funding to support young Black tech entrepreneurs, and discover how initiatives like the MyVillage Project Community Fund has united organizations and disbursed over $4M to support 220+ Black-led nonprofits across the country. Tune in to be informed, inspired, and involved in reshaping a more equitable tech future.
Scratchwerk ^EDU
Conversation with Attorney Octavius Holliday - Criminal Justice and a Prosecutor’s Journey
What happens when the power to determine someone's fate rests in your hands? Attorney Octavius Holliday Jr., Director of the Human Rights Division at the State Attorney's Office, pulls back the curtain on prosecutorial discretion and the human element of justice in this thought-provoking conversation.
Holiday's remarkable journey from Duke University to respected prosecutor took an unexpected turn when he became a father of two sets of twins during college. These personal challenges shaped his understanding of life's complexities and informed his compassionate approach to prosecution.
After ten years as a prosecutor, Holliday established his own criminal defense practice before returning to the State Attorney's Office under a new administration. This unique perspective from both sides of the courtroom allows him to address misconceptions about how justice works. He explains why two seemingly identical crimes might receive different charges and sentences, and why human judgment – not algorithms or rigid guidelines – remains essential in fair prosecution.
The conversation delves into the tension between community perceptions and prosecutorial realities. Holliday acknowledges the collective trauma experienced by Black communities due to historical mistreatment by law enforcement while asserting that much more grace and rehabilitation-focused approaches are employed than many realize. His work with elder abuse cases reveals disturbing vulnerabilities in our society, while his passionate plea for community involvement challenges professionals who've achieved success to give back.
Whether you're interested in criminal justice, community activism, or understanding power dynamics in our legal system, Holliday’s insights offer a rare glimpse into how justice actually works in practice. Join the conversation about balancing fairness, safety, and compassion in our communities.
um, it looked like he worked on a friday no, I just realized I had to get some subpoenas out and didn't do it, so oh okay, keep your real job. For real. You know, no matter what we do, you're going to have to track this on both sides, so it's a thankless job.
Speaker 4:It's a thankless job, you said.
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 4:But not for the people who side you wrong. No, thank you.
Speaker 3:We're going to get cursed out, no matter what. I'm not complaining about it, because I've been doing it 20 years, you have.
Speaker 4:This is the thankless job, Octavius.
Speaker 3:This one right here. Y'all trying to be famous, y'all trying to be like Shannon Sharp, right.
Speaker 1:What. Oh really we need more controversy for that, though.
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, you may be the one. Okay, were going to tell ronnie how I was the most fabulous person in the world. Is that how it started? I?
Speaker 3:was going to tell him how I went to leadership jacksonville because of joni portier and I didn't care whether I got in or not. But um, they said yeah. So I was like, all right, let's go. And um, you know, we got several um african-american participants right, but um, I say t and I'm like you know what? I think we got a vibe right here and I'm talking about an African American vibe. You know how it go right.
Speaker 3:The black black one, right, right, right. I'm looking around and I see I ain't gonna name no names. I see no people. And I got to know them and you know what. Everything's cool, but I don't love any Leadership Jacksonville people like I do Tia Levin. So the rest of them, man, it's all good, we're friends. They can call me for anything, right.
Speaker 4:That's right.
Speaker 3:We were trying to do the funny part about it, right, we were trying to avoid each other. We're like we're not going to be those people, right? We're not going to be those people who immediately gravitate toward each other, and that's all we do. So we were trying our best to spread our wings and all that, and we ended up at the hotel down in St Augustine. We were in a hotel. We were sitting on the same couch with our backs to each other you don't remember this With our backs to each other and please tell the whole story, because the hotel already got me like no no
Speaker 2:no, we're in a lobby, god. This is not the story what you're thinking.
Speaker 1:That's not a story.
Speaker 3:The renaissance for the meetings we had the renaissance okay you gotta start with that we got our back to each other and I was like we need to just stop playing. Why are we playing? We already know that we're gonna end up being friends by the end of this. We might as well start it right now.
Speaker 1:I don't know why we tripping so the basic assumption said y'all were going to be friends as part of the leadership.
Speaker 3:No, no, no More than that we were the two black-black African Americans.
Speaker 4:How did you know I was black-black though?
Speaker 3:It was a vibe, which that's what I'm trying to tell you. I can feel it In the culture. I can feel it. It's a culture, it comes out.
Speaker 2:You know what?
Speaker 1:You're already making this hard to edit Octavius. You're already making it hard to edit Octavius.
Speaker 3:I got y'all wrong.
Speaker 1:You're already making it hard to edit, just like that. We're two minutes into the damn thing. Well, well, we welcome all levels. I ended up part of the interview I ended up part of the interview.
Speaker 2:I want to know why y'all chose.
Speaker 3:What's his name? We all had him there before Before me Senator.
Speaker 1:Hill, just now, y'all just had Senator Hill.
Speaker 3:He's a good speaker. Yeah, I mean, you're a good speaker. You're an attorney, I'm looking at the pecking order. You got Maxie, you got Senator Hill, you got Judge Davis. If y'all had some other people, I was like, nah, I'm in front of them, I'm not sure what y'all do.
Speaker 4:This is good. I'm not sure what y'all do, so this is good. This is good. I'm glad you're saying this because it's about education, tech community, so not just we kind of were in our education, groove up front. So yeah, all right. Well, I'll start by reading your bio. I'm already laughing.
Speaker 3:So will you Go ahead, you sure? Yeah, I don't even think I wrote it. I think one of our people here wrote it.
Speaker 4:All right Scratchwork EVU listeners. Today we have with us Attorney Octavius A Holiday Jr, director of the Human Rights Division and the Community Crime Strategies Unit for the State Attorney's Office 4th Judicial Circuit of Florida. Originally from the Central Florida area, seminole and Orange Counties, attorney Holliday attended Duke University on a football scholarship for his undergraduate degree in political science and history, bachelor of Arts, in 1995, and the University of Florida for his law degree, juris Doctor, 2002. Upon passing the Florida Bar, attorney Holliday worked at the state attorney's office for approximately 10 years in various areas of the office before resigning in September 2012 to begin his solo law practice in the areas of criminal defense and family law. Attorney Holliday returned to the state attorney's office in January 2017 under Melissa Nelson's administration to head the Human Rights Division, which investigates and prosecutes exploitation of elderly and disabled adults, hate crimes, human trafficking and police excessive force cases Inside the state attorney's office. Attorney Holiday is also a permanent member of the Death Penalty Grand Jury Review Panel, the Officer Involved Shooting Review Panel, the Attorney Hiring, recruitment and Retention Team and the Elder Abuse Fatality Review Team.
Speaker 4:Attorney Holliday is the current vassaless of the Theta Phi Chapter of Omega Psi Phi Fraternity Incorporated, the oldest chapter in Florida. A member of the City of Jacksonville Jack's Journey Forward Board. A member and past president of the DW Perkins Bar Association. A mentor with the 100 Black Men of Jacksonville. A member of the 2017 Class of Leadership Jacksonville the best class. A member of the University of Florida Black Alumni Association. A member of the Jacksonville Urban League Guild. A member of the Jacksonville Bar and several other community service-focused organizations. Attorney Holiday is the current Florida Bar Claude Pepper Outstanding Government Lawyer of the Year, the 2020 recipient of the State Attorney's Office Fourth Leadership Award, the 2018 Jacksonville Omega man of the Year, the 2011 Hundred Black Men of Jacksonville man of the Year and the recipient of numerous other awards and recognitions for his commitment to the Jacksonville community. Attorney Holiday is married to William M Rain&M University pre-med graduate, madison Holiday and 24-year-old Florida A&M University pre-med graduate, madison Holiday. Attorney Holiday is also the proud stepdad of three bonus children Alina, alexander and Gregory. Welcome to the Scratchwork EDU podcast.
Speaker 1:Attorney Octavius, a Holiday, what's funny. I'm curious about what part of that was funny.
Speaker 4:First of all, you started laughing when I said it, so you tell me what was funny. That's who I am.
Speaker 3:I mean we can go on to other stuff you know about certificate. I'm saying what's funny about my bio?
Speaker 4:First of all, the bio is great. So proud of you, all the things. I started a pause on William so that the listeners could think that you were married to somebody named William. And then you said William M Raines, high school Chinese teacher. Why do you need to say all that?
Speaker 3:Because that's how she introduces herself.
Speaker 4:She said that she works with William M Raines, why y'all say all that why?
Speaker 3:Because she's part of that school. That's your alma mater, tia, you're supposed to be saying the same thing. You're supposed to be saying William same thing You're supposed to be saying William and Ray's high school graduate in 1999.
Speaker 4:That's what you're supposed to be, saying Ronnie, why do you think they say all that Uh-uh, come off, mute, nope. Nope, nope, I love William and Ray's. You're right, it's the best school in the land.
Speaker 3:That's something that Principal Hall started, that's, you know, the Harvard of the South or whatever Y'all can edit that out, that's what y'all call Reigns the high school Harvard of the South.
Speaker 4:First of all, that's what the principal says. The principal calls it the high school Harvard.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 4:The principal has called it that for a while. He is also a Reigns graduate 1990, reigns 90.
Speaker 3:Which is all funny. I don't even have to get into that here, but that's how me and my wife met. Because of that relationship.
Speaker 4:Because of you going up to Reigns.
Speaker 3:No, because we were at my sister's church. It's a bunch of things kind of worked together. We was at my sister's church. Reigns and Rebo have or Rebo has their annual football game every year obviously Northwest Classic and they go to a church on the sunday before the game for prayers for the team and all that. This happened to be a time when they were trying to celebrate, uh, the teachers of the year and all that. So they had the bands and cheerleaders and teachers of the year and my wife was a teacher of the year for rain. So I went to support my sister because she does a um, a youth group kind of a play kind of thing. So she was like kill, call me octavius, call, call me Tavius, tavius, be there early, because you know you're always getting that late. My kid's not performed already, so get there early. So I went early and I thought I was getting there early. They had two services so I had to wait until the end of the previous service and I'm like man, you know what, you could have told me that.
Speaker 2:But then I saw my wife and I was like oh snap, okay then. That's right, right there.
Speaker 3:But I grew up church, God and Christ. We don't really be flirting like that in church. That's why we were raised. But after the service the reason Crystal.
Speaker 1:Hall comes into it because I knew Y'all the only denomination that don't be flirting in church. We got some rules.
Speaker 3:Coach, you got some rules.
Speaker 2:Oh, real rules.
Speaker 1:Don't leave it for benediction.
Speaker 3:We got some rules so you can do some stuff, but do it outside of church. I just never felt comfortable ever doing that, so I'm good. And then, after the service was over, I saw Vincent Hall, who just happened to be the classmate of a former girlfriend, right, but I've known Vincent for several years, so I go down and say what's up to him. You know that's it. Him and Bostic were down there. I'm talking to Dr Bostic, so I'm going to say what's up to Vincent Hall and Dr Bostic, and then up pops this lady talking about can you take a picture of me and my boss? And I was like shit, I'll do more than that. I'll marry you, I we're gonna have some more kids, but anyway, that's that's how it kind of started okay, all right, now we're getting into it.
Speaker 3:Love it love it, love it, that's. That's the first one. Yes, ma'am rains, rains.
Speaker 4:Does that does have a way, so I won't. I won't get on that. That is the best school in the county. For those listening um, dubai county has the best school called rains. And then there's rebolt and not reboat, but anyway, moving on anyway moving on so. Octavius, you played football for Duke right, I did.
Speaker 3:I like to say I practiced football for Duke.
Speaker 4:You can correct that you practiced football for Duke. Okay, there was some politics going on.
Speaker 3:Man, I'm still bitter about that thing. I got some things I hold on to, so no, they didn't put me on the field as a receiver. Look first of all, I Um. So no, they put me on the field as a receiver, I look first of all. I was thinner than I am now. Now, you was a receiver, I was a receiver Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know Okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was a wide receiver, I was about 200 back then, so, but I had good hands. I'm telling you, I had the hands. But then I also had a field and then they had me on the practice squad and I'm going against the starters and I'm dogging them and I'm talking noise the whole time like, look, you would have to go through this if they just played me. If they played me, you would have to go through this. How you gonna beat Florida State if you can't stop me? Bam, catch, you know you garbage. Get some game, watch yourself, bam, you know, and this is a real story. Now we're in the locker room. The coach is like stand up. And I stand up, you know. And he was like you're a cancer.
Speaker 3:He never cursed. This is Barry Wilson. But he was like you're a cancer to the team. You ruin our players' confidence. I was like your players' lack of ability this is what I'm saying to, and it got nothing to do with me Put players on the field that can play. So we go four and seven damn near every year, and I'm still not playing. So I was like you know what Forget being a receiver, let me go just kill some people on special teams. And that's what I ended up doing.
Speaker 3:I was an assassin, running down the field, killing folks on every play and having a good time I don't care if the player was on my side or not, somebody, you know, some random dude, just you know you play over. I'm like, well, no, bro, you're going to feel this, you're going to remember this, kid Bam. So I had a good time with Duke Probably partied and I didn't drink back then at all, but I had a good, good time that we probably can't even talk about on your podcast. I'm telling you it was a perfect situation and it was a good, good time until I had kids, so that kids ruined all that.
Speaker 4:So what I'm hearing is you went to Duke, you played football, you had to argue on the sidelines just to get some play time.
Speaker 3:In the meetings. In the meetings.
Speaker 4:And then you basically had to get your talk game straight to get some girls. So at the end of the day you went into law school, so you could perfect this craft. Is that what?
Speaker 3:happened. No, no, no, no, no. Life happened before that. So I'm playing, I'm doing my thing in college and what's funny was I thought you know, that's quite my roommate he's. You know, he's a good dude. He's still living in Durham now.
Speaker 2:But, now.
Speaker 3:But he played around man, he would have two or three girlfriends on campus at the same time and I was like boy, you are sorry, you're ragged at treating the ladies right. And he'd be like no bro, look in the mirror. You got one back in Orlando and on campus I was like yeah, but they're never going to see each other. What happened?
Speaker 3:was my girlfriend from Orlando got pregnant, got pregnant with twins, and so I couldn't play football anymore because I had to support the kids. So back on January 15th 1994, the kids weren't even a year, a month old I got a job at Red Lobster. And then on February 12th 1994, I got a job at a security firm down at Glaxo Welcome. And so I was working two jobs, trying to graduate and take care of two kids. No more football. No, so welcome. And so I was working two jobs, trying to graduate and take care of two kids. No more football, no more earring. I had an earring around here, earring in my ear, thought I was doing something.
Speaker 3:But, um, kids will humble you because they are saying, daddy, you're only 21 years old, two at a time I'll humble you oh yeah, that first two was hard though, because ultimately, uh, we weren't together as a couple necessarily you, you know, you know we kind of were, because you know I told you already about how I dated. So I had to basically get my life together, never miss any more classes. So now I've become a straight-A student. So I went from mediocre grades, hanging out not going to class, up and down semesters depending on how I felt about it, to straight-A. So I come back to Orlando.
Speaker 3:I'm a waiter that's why I treat service so well because I was a waiter at Red Lobster in Durham, I moved back to Orlando because that's where the babies were and they're in the mall. And then I was waiting tables in East Orlando, waiting tables at Disney as well, and then also worked as a runner at a law firm. So the whole thing was let me get their mom to get out of school she was at UCF Let her get out of college and then I can get my chance to go to school.
Speaker 3:And somewhere in the middle of that we fell in love again and got married. She graduated in 99 out of UCF. I was going to enter Florida in January 2000. Before that even happened, she was like oh, guess what, honey? I was like you better not say you're pregnant. I know that, I know that. Nah, she went to the doctor and came up with another set of twins, which were born right after my first semester of law school. That's life hitting you. You got four kids, you're in law school, you got a wife and you still work. And you know, law school, university of Florida was like you can't work and I was like man you gonna pay?
Speaker 3:these bills or what you know. Well, that's how it went.
Speaker 4:Octavius, I think we all need a moment of silence, because ain't?
Speaker 3:no way, ain't, no way where.
Speaker 4:Second pregnancy is another set of twins. Yeah, man, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. But it was a time I tell you what law school was a blur. People were like remember when we did this? I was like, no, I do not remember that because it was a blur. I was tired the whole time, exhausted the whole time, and you know, that's where it was, and that's not even talking about breaking on the way to the bar exam. I'm telling you God has.
Speaker 3:I know you don't want me to preach here, but I'm telling you my heart has a hand on my life and I don't talk about it a whole lot to my sister because you know, because she a Bible thumper, but I don't talk about it to most people. But yeah, definitely I broke down on the way to the bar exam. I was an hour late, made the bar exam questions. You know the first three hours is essay questions and he made those and that really makes it break your grade. Honestly. You can you kind of get down to other parts, but that those essay questions they hit some areas of law that you're just not familiar with, you're not past.
Speaker 3:And the first one they had was criminal law. I was like how the heck did they do that? Boom. And then they had evidence I was on it. So two out of the three I'm not going to have to park. And then the last one was on estates and trusts, which I was in. We were weakened, but two out of the three I can bang out. So I passed abroad the first time and started my life in Jacksonville.
Speaker 4:There you go. That is awesome, I did not know that story.
Speaker 1:I know a lot of folks, man, that bar exam kept them from their dreams.
Speaker 2:You know, I still know folks right now.
Speaker 1:Man, they went to school and they just couldn't get past that exam. So, yeah, that must have been a challenge. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:When you get the grades, you know the bar exam. They mess with you. Now you get the grades, you know the bargain. They mess with you. Now One they design the test for you to fail Like they design the test to trick you. It's not like any other test you take where you know the material. You spit it out, you win right. No, they design the test to trick you with those multiple, multiples. If you go down the wrong hole you end up in a whole different part of the answer. You're not gonna get it right.
Speaker 3:But I do remember when I got the results. They make it like a telephone book. Remember the old telephone books. You can't hardly find the number. You got to kind of go across. You have to. They they put it out on some computer sheet. You have to get a piece of paper and load it like, put it up to the name and go across to find. It's crazy, you gotta find your number and then go across. So when it said pass, pass, it was emotional. I'm not not a crier, but I had to. I just broke down. We're not to the river, was you seven building? Our state turns off by the building, by the river Other than the town and went down there, took a few moments cry. I stopped playing some Mary Mary when I saw incredible, yeah. But I was like you know this is crazy, but call my dad, you know, rest in peace to him. Call my mom, rest in peace. But anyway, it happened. So we were off and on our way in Jacksonville, me, the ex-wife and the four kids.
Speaker 4:And all the kids, all the kids, all of them.
Speaker 3:I done re-upped. I done signed up for three more Last night.
Speaker 2:they was running around the house.
Speaker 3:I was like sit down somewhere and I was like man this is a flashback to what I was raising my four Right you got good practice, though you were ready you were ready yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so you, you go from this beautiful story. First of, all to working for the state attorney's office for several years? What?
Speaker 3:made you go solo because it was a um, you have to, you have to, and I didn't know when I was young, I was just trying to learn how to do the job. But after a while, you you want to align yourself with leadership that has um, your same values and principles and um you know it's funny because I was I was at the jacksonville journey, um forward meeting. You know, I'm on that board. They were talking about juvenile justice and nobody says the name, they just say well, in 2008, the juvenile justice where the state attorney's office operated, went a different direction and now we're glad to have it back on this side in 2017. But there's a person associated with that. I'm not throwing stones at her, but the way she went about her business, getting in line with how I saw prosecution, how I saw the need for prosecutors to be outside of the office, and I'll tell you a quick story. It was about 2011, and I was pretty high in the office actually, and maybe about 2010, I think 2010.
Speaker 3:And they showed a movie maybe y'all saw it 904?. There's a movie called 904 that talked about crime victims and crime defendants, right, and the whole thing was about sympathy for crime victims and then also some rehabilitative efforts for the defendants to get them on the right path, and they had. I Forgot the Young Man's. Now he speaks all the time around town. But ultimately, when the movie was over, I thought it was a pretty good movie. You know, a short movie.
Speaker 1:Our leadership stood up and was like oh, that's garbage, man, that's garbage.
Speaker 3:Them guys know what they're doing and you know we don't need more programs in this type of town and we need to just get the maximum. And you know I could have just sat there and took that, but I was like man, I bought this. So I stood up and said look, we think we're going to try to prosecute our way out of a crime problem. We're stupid because you know the way I look at it. At the time I was doing this, I was involved heavily with 100 Black Men, venture on the young side, on people's side, and then I was also involved with reentry on the back side. I'm trying to have a impact all around, not just prosecuting this 10 or 15 percent that we catch and are able to prosecute. And I wanted that message to be to my colleagues that we are foolish, and I think some of them. I used to say this. I don't know if that's not true now, but I used to say you know what? Um, a raging racist person, a person who just don't like black people and they can get away with giving the side of state attorney's office because there's so much discretion that we have as prosecutors to go. I want to say lenient, but you can do something. I'll use the example. If a little boy is walking down the street and he sees a basketball inside of a fence 10 yard to a house and he goes and takes a basketball, well, what crime has been committed right there? Technically, that's a burglary to that house. It's called the curtailage of the house, so the fence around the house and the house is all the same. You might as well went inside the house at two o'clock in the morning. It's the same crime. And if you have the wrong prosecutor, they can look at that little boy and say, yeah, I'm going to charge him with a second-degree felony burglary with a minimum guidelines, with no prior record, of 21 months at the bottom, 15 years at the top. That and that's a legal sentence. So a lot of what happens in prosecution is not the judges, it is the person sitting on the prosecution side, and what charges we decide to bring which I decide not to bring is is really a lot of power in our hands as far as what's um, what justice is. So you have a bad mentality at the top and it filters way down and then ultimately you got horror stories all over the city with people saying my loved one did something wrong, he deserved life in prison or he deserved 30 years. You hear that all over. So essentially that's what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3:When I said I made that speech, I basically dispelled the end of my assent in the office. I can't speech. I basically dispelled the end of my ascent in the office. I can't remember what. The next day of the next week, what they sent me down to juvenile. It was quick, it was quick, but I joined my time in juvenile before I left and then I was not even thinking about coming back.
Speaker 3:And then just happens to be when Melissa Nelson was on her campaign trail. We ended up in the same rooms over and over again. By that time I'm really on so many different boards and stuff like that that we end up. She ended up talking to pastors I'm in the room, I'm not pastor, but just I was part of that meeting. Talk to naacp I'm in that room, different things around the city and then she was like you want to come back? I was like hell, no, I ain't coming back. Why would I come back? And I don't think I was treated that well when I was here the first time. I won't get into that. But ultimately I was like, okay, man, I'm going to get this woman to get off my back. I'm going to. And I'll just say that Melissa was my division chief back in 2004 and five Like so.
Speaker 3:We had a relationship from way back, but I was, I gave her, I gave her three things and I it. I was like I'm not coming back unless you satisfy these straight thing. One is the money. Get that right first. The next one is autonomy. I don't need nobody on top of me telling me what to do. I'm going to have be able to make my decisions good or bad. Live with it, you know whatever. And the next one you know I'll be blunt about it and say I have some people who, um, I had some run-ins with and I questioned their um, whether you're racist, whether they were just mean, hostile, and I was like I'm not trying to re-up, to be under them at all. So you figure that out. And I didn't think she would. Actually, I was like you figure that out, I was making my money in my law firm. And then she called back and was yeah, we'll do that.
Speaker 3:And I was like what For real and I felt like this was an overarching. I know I'm talking too much now, but this was an overarching feeling in Jackson at the time was that we needed somebody at the state attorney's office who looked like us, who could be at the table, and I was like, well shoot, dexter Davis was a prosecutor back in the 90s and Richard Brown was a prosecutor in the 90s and everybody we talked about had been gone 15 years by then and nobody that we was talking about had any real um feet on the ground kind of movement about themselves as far as doing work in the community. So, um, I was like, okay, I could really have more impact in my career going back to the state attorney's office than being on my own having one client at a time. I was having fun, I was getting some night guilt. I'm telling you impact in my career going back to the state attorney's office than being on my own helping one client at a time. I was having fun, I was getting some not guilt. I'm telling you, that's fun. Right there, you get a not guilt and you're going against a machine over that state attorney's office. They bring in all these boxes and they got three attorneys on the case and it's just me and my client and Jerry was like nah, not guilty, we walk out of the courtroom and I was feeling good.
Speaker 3:But I will say that when that previous prosecutor was no longer the prosecutor I don't know I was I was super motivated to be her office, honestly, and then when she left it was like, well, I think the best thing for the people of Jacksonville and I'm not trying to make too much of myself, I'm saying that we do need somebody of color in the room. You know we were the previous prosecutor with. The previous prosecutor would just decide on her own would she seek the death penalty, would she prosecute that officer or not prosecute that officer, whatever, and that's crazy. So you need to have a collector, we need to come together in the office and think about it. So there you go.
Speaker 1:I mean I, you know one of the things when I think about somebody like yourself in the position and obviously you know we've done so much I mean I can't even count how many mentoring sessions we've been in together and all kind of lunch and learns and things like that so when I think about somebody in your position being over there in that office a lot of times I do think about it from that young black male's perspective.
Speaker 1:Young Black males perspective, you know, is when he jumps over the fence and tries to get the ball, what kind of charges are being brought against them and having somebody like you in there to be fair. But I'm also starting to recently think about how we are prosecuting outside of the Black community, specifically the January 6th riots and just the way that those folks were being charged or lack thereof, or being released. I know we've had incidents here locally that I'm sure you had some some pushback on related to, you know, teenagers that that might have been intimidating folks. You know voting booths and things like that. I guess talk to us a little bit about how you handle even those situations, any type of intimidation or any acts like that towards Black communities. I know folks probably look at you to say Tavis, fix it for us. How do you approach that?
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, I do prosecute hate crimes, and not just hate crimes, but crimes. They give me some latitude in the office crimes with a racial animus. So if you just say the N word in the middle of your crime, it might come to me for review to see whether I should prosecute that. So I do get a lot of those that's not true hate crimes but but have that racial animus as a part of it. I pride myself on being consistent and I tell victims all the time is that they can feel the way they feel about a case and they're going to be hurt. We got a thing called Marcy's Law where they're going to be heard in court and have their opinions heard. But my job is to be consistent with that defendant's criminal prior criminal record how I've treated that scenario before and be consistently so black, white, asian, whatever. Now I do have a softer spot for young people and again, it doesn't matter what race or whatever it is, because young people do stupid things right and if I feel like we can handle the situation and deal with it accordingly, I don't need to mar that person's record for the rest of their life, because if we put felony charges on somebody they get convicted. Whatever the case might be, that's a life sentence in terms of your employability and you're going on with your life.
Speaker 3:So a lot of times politics get involved. I know a lot of people, so they got my phone number and I don't hide it. They in my ear on this side and you know whatever. But overall I got to be fair and if I don't see it the way you see it, that's fine. You know, I don't like to get flipped with nobody and say, you know, go to law school, get the job, you make the decision you want to, but but ultimately I'm tasked with being as fair as possible. So and that's I don't think that's pie in the sky. And I don't think that's pie in the sky BS. I'm fluent to you no-transcript to get the defendant's attention or get them on the right path or rehabilitate, and I think that's what we call smart justice. In our office we got all these diversion programs veterans court and drug court and all these other things in order to give people second chances. But nobody really bothers the office unless it's a politically motivated situation. And I say political it's not always Republican or Democrat.
Speaker 3:I'm saying you have an office involved shooting. These are the ones that I get the most phone calls on. We've got an office involved shooting and the public doesn't know what we know. Typically, and you know I get some people who are elected officials that call me up and you know that's crazy up, and you know that that's crazy. You know what jso did. I was like will you please just hold on and don't march around our office, around the courthouse yet, because I'm telling you that it's not going to come out the way you want it to come out. Uh, what you, what you think it is, um, and I might even be leaving some some things there saying look, just just be cool and we'll have a body-worn camera tomorrow, whatever the case might be, but just be cool. Typically they have heeded that advice and said let's wait until more information comes out. And when it comes out, you see that it wasn't what it appears to be and I've never really had any problem with the media necessarily, but they are a problem and I'll say it right now.
Speaker 3:I'm saying on your recorded podcast they are trying to get clicks, okay, and they're going to put it out there. That they're going to put it out there. That's what happened with that last thing you were just alluding to, ronnie. They put the story out there a certain way, meaning there was no consequences for that person, and they put it out there in order to get a reaction and get clicks. And they do the same thing with office-involved shootings. They do the same thing Anything that can take up anything politically or racially. They put the story out there in a certain way to get a reaction.
Speaker 3:And that's why I'm always telling leadership who calls me just relax for a second, just pause. We're not hiding anything. We're not doctoring anybody on cameras. We're going to get it, but you got to really not be. And I tell you what this irritates me. And I'm saying this about my own people, about black folks.
Speaker 3:We have such a history and so I'm blaming, but then I'm also giving excuses, I guess as well. We have a history of so much wrong being done to us as a people by law enforcement, by state attorneys, by judges, et cetera. So we have a trauma, even if it hadn't happened to us. People are like did it ever happen to you? Well, it happened to my mom and my auntie and my cousins. Well, I read about it. It's still a collective trauma that we have and ultimately we have an attitude or a position that we don't believe the cops first, we don't believe police first down.
Speaker 3:Yet let's, let's see, because we're. If it's something that's wrong, we're gonna prosecute. You know, I remember the um, the mapper dunn case. Um killed jordan davis, you know, for playing music too loud outside of the gas station at south side and in bay meadows and people were protesting. I'm like what you're protesting? We prosecuted a man, um, he, he's in jail for life. I'm not sure what we're protesting for. We protesting for what end when, when it comes down to the um, the office hasn't hadn't done the right thing.
Speaker 1:I don't know if there's any reason for protest, but um, but I guess, but I guess from my, my vantage point, though, um and I don't put this entire responsibility on you, obviously you know, but I think, when you talk about the system, I think sometimes, communities yes, you're right, we have these horrible experiences, you know, either personally or indirectly. But also, I guess, when I flip it around, I constantly see that same system trying to make examples out of, you know, black communities, and what I mean by that, you know. For instance, I think about, like, the beaches, and you know, spring break is coming up here, right, and my goodness, if you had two black boys that go out to those beaches and and do anything ridiculous, right, anything criminal, it's first of all we're going to make an example of them. That's, that's how we feel as a community, right, the system's going to make an example of them. And, on top of that, we would probably even go as far as changing policy to make sure that that never happens again. And it seems, it just seems, and you would know more than we do.
Speaker 1:But it seems sometimes that when it's flipped around and the incident you know, I'm referring to even, uh, you know that that young granted, he was a teenager, but that young boy that was, uh, you know, the Trump supporter with the machete out there and stuff like that. Now, in my mind sometimes I think communities are looking for well, let's make an example out of that as well Like to discourage any type of activity that goes on like that again. And and I know that's a lot of responsibility to kind of put on you, but I, you know, I'm asking the question so that you can kind of respond to that, cause I think that's where communities come from sometimes is no, we, we want, we want justice in a way that nobody would ever think about shooting at a kid because his music is too loud or because he was running in the park. Let's make an example out of something to to deter that from happening in the future. But yeah, my first point would be.
Speaker 3:I don't see, uh, and I know we're not innocent. I mean we got 120 attorneys, so things happen all the time that clearly I don't know about it, whatever. But I don't personally see us making examples of out of young people. Um, we give and is not. We don't publicize it necessarily, but we give so many opportunities and chances to young people to write that wrong. So in plenty of chances we could, every day, every week, we could take somebody and hold them up and say we're going to make an example of this person. But that's not what happens. We normally have some grace there and say let's do this, you can do this community service or whatever the case might be and put them on the right path. So I don't see the same things that you see. I know the community sees it a certain way, but I'm on the inside.
Speaker 3:I've been a juvenile prosecutor before. When this administration took over we started having a decrease in numbers for juvenile direct files, putting juveniles in adult court. So we have numbers to back that up. Now we've had an uptake lately because we have more juvenile shooting at people um, shoot at each other primarily, um, kind of game related stuff. So of course we got to put them in adult court if they're on that track and they got priors and stuff. But for the most part I don't see what the community feels and again I try to justify that feeling by saying we have a history of being mistreated and I can't say that I wasn't mistreated when I was a teen. I had a gun pulled on me by the police when I was about 14.
Speaker 3:And I've written that story on Facebook before and say that you know what, every time I encountered the police in my neighborhood, I came from what you would call the hood in Altamont Springs in Orlando, florida area, and every time these days we call them the Duke boys. Y'all ever heard of Duke boys? I'm not talking about Dukes of Hazzard, I'm talking about when the police put masks on tack gear and they were in the back of a U-Haul or a Ryder truck. And they come around and around and they see a bunch of us in the neighborhood just chilling we're listening to music, right and they jump out and if you run they're going to grab you, throw you in the ground, search your pockets. And I didn't know the amendments at the time but I was like man, that sounded like a violation of something that looked like a violation of something, but I never ran. I'm like I don't sell drugs, I don't do anything.
Speaker 3:You know, I was bold then to say look, you know I'm not doing anything criminal, but they would take my friends, throw them down, search their pockets. That's the relationship we had and the city I come from, altamont Springs it's not, it's really in two. Altamont Springs, police takes care of Altamont Springs. We are really an unincorporated part of Southeast Seminole County and the Seminole County Sheriff's Office is what places my neighborhood in my area. So that's what we're dealing with and there's just a violation of rights over and over and over again. So I know that happens and it happened to me when I was in Jacksonville. I was a law student not a law student undergrad coming from my friend's brother. He was at Camp Lejeune, I think it was we. He was at Camp Lejeune, I think it was. We're coming through Jacksonville, but he's Puerto Rican looking. They stopped their search on the car for no reason. You know. I was like Jacksonville is crazy. So when I got to Jacksonville, I got to stay at the attorney's office. My first, one of my first things I was thinking about look, anytime I see something suspicious about a law and police report, I'm going to make sure I make a list and and we did that for a long time have a list of officers and try to root them out of the sheriff's office, and we still do that to a certain degree. But I don't see what you're seeing, ronnie. I know the community feels a certain way and they got stories to back it up, anecdotal stories. I see young people of all colors and I will say that, as far as the number of the color of people who get most arrested in our city, um, do, look like us and there's a lot of grace given to a lot of our young people. Um, period, it's just it, just that's what happens. But, um, so everybody don't get the book thrown at them and the persons who you know, it's kind of funny, who you know. It sounded funny to me a little bit because that is one story that's funny to me, not funny what you're saying.
Speaker 3:I was on a commission with the sheriff's office and we were reviewing cases and they were bringing cases for us to review to see that there was racism in different cases in Jacksonville. I'm at the table with five high-ranking sheriff's officials and five community leaders and the case they bring in front of us was my case. Like, okay, they're talking about my case and it was a case of a young black boy, 18, 19 years old, who was a student at JU. He was on the football team. Ju had a football team and somebody told him for stealing an iPod and he wanted to retaliate against that person. He did. He laid in wait and it was the quarterback. He had six, five white guy and he hit that kid in the head with a baseball bat, bam, across the head and then right down the middle, boom, and could have killed the kid right.
Speaker 3:So they were saying it started out not talking about the act but talking about the punishment. This kid got five years in prison, he had no record and et cetera, et cetera. But I understand how just giving limited facts can make people feel a certain way. So you have limited facts and you say, oh, you know, the first time a friend saw a black man, they gave him five years. But what?
Speaker 3:really happened was he got grace because I could have charged him with attempted murder.
Speaker 3:He would have been doing 15 to 20 years, where I decided to just charge him with aggravated battery with a deadly weapon and get five years. It's all about the way it's presented. I know that with my background where I grew up, if I didn't come to the state attorney's office and actually get to know a lot of officers, get to know how the system works on the inside, get to know a lot of officers, get to know how the system works on the inside, I'll be feeling the same way that we never get any second chance, we never get any third chance, we never get any grace. But right now we'll say for all the people listening, they can come off and talk to me all they want to.
Speaker 3:That is not true. We give a lot of grace but it seems like no matter what we do, we're going to be not trusted. So we have all these community efforts. I'm a leader of the Community Crime Strategy Unit, where you might see me all over town always trying to create better relationships. But it's like trying to eat an elephant, one bite at a time, like no matter what we do, nobody really still trusts us. So I'm not sure what the answers are. I'm just rambling now.
Speaker 4:No, but, octavius, hearing that you know that I have worked for the school system, which is a totally different system and same type of deal with whatever they do inside of there. Hearing you come from the state attorney's office, then leave, then come back. I came from outside, went into the district, left back out. For me being inside the system, there was so much that I could do to your point, but I had to be fearless in doing that and I was around a lot of people who just kind of went with the status quo. They were excited to have their job, make their little money, wanted the next promotion and potentially did not attempt to do the harder things or the more controversial things or the things that would actually better more children, because it took a little too much work and they weren't trying to do that anymore.
Speaker 4:I'm curious about attorneys and what you see now and whether or not. If you y'all you can probably edit this out depending on your answer but what you see around the state attorney's office yes, you are there and and thanks for everything that you do inside and outside in terms of what you see and how you advocate and how you take your life experiences and and and use those in your decision-making. However, do you see a lot of that? Do you are your peers? I know Melissa Nelson that sounds great compared to the nameless person that must've been there before, but how are you feeling about the people that are working at the state attorney's office right now in terms of a fair shake for who gets there now like? Has the culture changed? Are your colleagues trustworthy, for lack of a better word? Um?
Speaker 3:that's that's a hard answer. That's I know, jasmine, but that's that's hard. I don't know every. I can't tell you everybody's name talk, let alone know what they're feeling in their heart. I couldn't tell you that, but I know this. My phone rings and I get emails and letters from people who I don't I'm not on their case. They're just black people in the community whose son got arrested and they said write to this man and I tell him this I'm like you need to pay me more because I'm doing work that ain't part of my caseload.
Speaker 3:I'm doing this behind the scenes work to see, and the question that these parents and grandparents are asking is is my son being treated fairly? And I will take the case, look at it. Sometimes they don't like my answer. I know it's a need for people in our community who don't go to courts every day and don't see this kind of thing. So their loved one is facing serious time and they want some opinion about how the system is working. Then I do spare time for that and so I just do the best I can to answer questions. But ultimately you're asking is there still an issue?
Speaker 3:I don't think all the people who have worked under the previous administration are gone. There's several people who are still here and you wonder whether you know their mentality. They were hired and trained under previous administration. Is that different now? I question that sometimes, but I don't have the time to be running behind everybody either, and seeing all I can do is the best I can do what's in front of me and then make sure our, our major decisions are as fair and just as positive. I see the measures I'm talking major decision of whether to put a juvenile in an adult court, whether to seek the death penalty. Those are the major decisions in the office of which we've got to have the most sound judgment. We need more representation on this side, and I say true representation, you know.
Speaker 1:I'll leave it at that.
Speaker 1:But okay, right, I'm sorry, no, no, no, no, I mean it kind of leads me into a. You know, it wouldn't be our podcast if we don't go completely in the left field here. So it kind of leads me into that a little bit. But I think of a lot of this stuff. Sometimes I think what makes some communities uncomfortable is the discretion that you're talking about in terms of prosecution and things like that. And you know, when I think about technology now and all the different ways that we can quantify things, matter of fact, speeding tickets is probably the best example I never could understand. You know why we've been playing police officer being on this street versus that street.
Speaker 1:And you know I'm going to try to speed in this highway and not the other ones? I mean, we could put up cameras all over the city and we could just you know if you speed in a zone, we'll just send you the ticket, right and it seems as if, like, we know we can do that.
Speaker 1:but we'd rather just make it this kind of like one off thing where the police officer can stop you depending on the street that you're on. But I guess what I'm saying is I feel like, with some of these things, I know, no two crimes are the same, but it feels like we should be able to almost get closer to quantifying hey if this, yeah, if this thing happens, this is what's going to happen. Hey, if this, yeah, if this thing happens, this is what's going to happen. You know, I'm not trying to automate the prosecution out of a job, but in some ways I'm thinking it shouldn't be a phone call that comes from you, from that mother, to say is my son being treated fairly, I mean, based on the numbers and this and that? And yeah, everybody in this situation when these things happen, they get that. Why don't we have those systems?
Speaker 3:Because it's been tried. Let me give you a couple of examples. And you tell me, can you see the difference? And this is aside from all the? How young is the person? How injured was the victim? Was there a gun used? Was the gun threatened to be used? Was the gun fired? All those things come into play with a different crime.
Speaker 3:But so say you get a robbery. I'll start with a robbery. I'll use two examples. One's a robbery. I come to you, right, I got a gun. Give me your wallet. You give me the wallet, I go off. That's the robbery.
Speaker 3:Another guy, depending on who it comes to. You give me a wallet. It's a wallet. Looks in it. Hey man, I got your address, I know where you live. I'm gonna blow your head off. You call the police, I'm gonna blow your head off. You understand me? Okay, all right. And I got your id with me right now I'll come back kill you and your kids, but all right, I'm gone.
Speaker 3:Same crime on paper is going to be an armed robbery with no firearm. No, I mean no discharge with a firearm. Right, we are going to treat the one who gave more threats and put that victim with more fear, put more trauma on them a longer sentence versus a person who just took the money, whatever. Another thing that came up a lot and I say this to Barlow, it was Barlow possession of cocaine. You know I was doing these kind of crimes 15, 20 years ago Possession of okay.
Speaker 3:Right, you find somebody and they look a little tattered and you got them with two pieces of crack and they got a pipe to smoke it, right. That gives you one image of what kind of person we're dealing with there, right, and they get that's okay in charge, fair for their charge, and they get some kind of treatment program Black, white or otherwise. They get some kind of treatment program Black, white or otherwise, they get a treatment program. Now you go to another guy. He's about 25 years old, wearing a jogging suit, looking kind of well-dressed, not ratty, right, and he had a cigar tube cut in half and he got 10 pieces of crack inside the cigar tube right.
Speaker 3:It's still below 28 ounces 28 grams rather than an ounce 28 grams. So it's not trafficking, it's possession of cocaine charge. He gets two years in prison. Now Barlow was bringing this gentleman up, but that's what the situation was. Why does this man get two years in prison and that guy gets drug-affected probation or gets some kind of treatment? It's because we're dealing with a user versus a dealer, and I think that's obvious when you read the police report, but it's not obvious when you only look at the charged crime. And that's the difference too. And also, what it doesn't take into account is the grace.
Speaker 3:And I'll tell you this, ronnie. So a young kid is charged with armed robbery, like I explained to you, right? But he's super young, right? We're going to give him, instead of giving him the gun charge and giving him a minimum of 10 years, we're going to give him a six-year youthful offender sentence on a lesser charge of unarmed robbery. Follow me now. So on paper it looks like he pledged an unarmed robbery, got six years in prison, and then this guy over here who had an unarmed robbery from the jump right, nothing higher than that, and he got probation. It looks like two disparate sentences really. But this one over here. We reduced it from an armed robbery, giving that kid a break. So we give that kid a break, put him in a youthful offense sentence. He gets six years instead of ten or whatever, and it looks like when you compare the two, it looks like we did the one with six years dirty. When you ask him and his parents, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:So yeah, but, but I guess I guess that's my but, that's what I'm. I'm curious, I mean cause, and I see, I see the logic, um and you're not. You know, I, I, I absolutely um, get basketball. We know, if we look at all the things, we have a certain opinion about that. But I guess I'm saying if we all knew that if you jump the fence, I don't care if you get in the basketball or you run up in the place and shooting it up, right, you're going to get charged this right. If you get caught with the drugs, I don't care if it's in the cigar or you got the pipe with you, you're going to be charged this right. And I feel like in some ways that can even even help prevent crime, because there is no wiggle room like university of Florida, One of the things, uh, when they were kind of doing the affirmative action, protests and things like that, when I was at a UF, my biggest thing was like um, I'm actually an advocate of taking race out of the applications as well.
Speaker 1:Right, I mean, let's not do college applications based on race. I 100% support that. But I also support don't check gender, don't check whether or not your parents went to school here. Don't check whether or not you're on the football team or the basketball team or the tennis team, right? Just take GPAs and test scores and draw a line. Right, accept only those things and draw a line. But nobody wants to do that, right? We want to-.
Speaker 3:We can't do that.
Speaker 1:We can't do that right. We want to accept certain things and not others. So I guess my point is in the law scenario. Why can't we just say look, if you jump the fence, it's this.
Speaker 3:You know, if you jump the fence, it's this. If you get caught with the drugs, it's that. We can't do that and you don't want us to. You don't want us to. I'm not saying you, I'm saying people who have a conscience about prosecution don't want us to, because 17-year-old kid, 18-year-old kid throws a rock at a bus, that's shooting deadly missiles. Or you could be outside somebody's house and shoot in the house, that's shooting deadly missiles. Those are vastly different.
Speaker 3:We have to have people, humans not the computers humans that get inside the facts of a case to determine what's fair and what's not fair. So we need somebody to look at that little boy who went in the yard for the basketball and say I know, technically it's a burglary, but we're going to charge him with a misdemeanor petty theft and a misdemeanor trespass. You got to have somebody to make that determination and say we are not. We know we're being too heavy handed in that circumstance and we're not going to do that. And that doesn't just benefit Black people, that benefits everybody. We can't have prosecutors just saying well, he qualifies as a burglar. No, we don't want that. We don't want that, nobody wants that. Because if we started doing that, then you're basically criminalizing every behavior. I don't think anybody wants that. I don't care.
Speaker 1:But I think, if nobody wants it, if everybody who's on the prosecution side represents your community Now my community, where I only have an Octavius Holiday there to go to and my thing is like, well, yeah, let's just set up the cameras at anybody's speed and they get a ticket, Because we get tickets anyway.
Speaker 3:We go into jail anyway, with criminal punishment you have to be able to read between the lines and see what's fair, and I don't think going same punishment for every crime or charging a defendant every defendant with the same crime. I don't think that's fairness. There are variances that happen inside of each crime. That has to be examined by a human and not by a computer. So ultimately, if your child got in trouble for that basketball, you don't want them charged with a burglary right.
Speaker 3:Nobody wants that right and to the most rational of us all, we wouldn't think that's fair, right. That's not the same as going inside somebody's house at 2 o'clock in the morning, no matter how we look at it. You know, going inside somebody's house two o'clock in the morning, stealing a jury we're stealing a basketball and bar. They lie outside in the yard is nowhere equal to one another one should be in prison, the other one should be misdemeanor prosecution, utmost in probation, and so that's what I was bringing up. When you have diversity of prosecutors, you're able to better determine that instead of I like to, I like to fire prosecutors who are always harsh, who don't have any, our job can't be done.
Speaker 3:Well, you don't have compassion at some point to say I know the victim is screaming for a year in jail, but it's not a year case. I'll give them a chance to speak to the court, but I don't think that's a year in jail, but it's not a year case. I'll give them a chance to speak to the court, but I don't think that's a year case. They were like well, you're a horrible person, mr Holliday, you can say all you want to. Okay, I do this job to be as fair as possible. Some people are going to say I'm too harsh on this case. Some people are going to say I'm too heavy on this case. I'm trying to be a better society. We just, we just harsh across the board.
Speaker 4:that's not going to work at all do you all use any type of technology to help pull these details down? Because I can't help but think about and I'm novice to all of it, but I think about chat, gpt and how. At this point this thing knows exactly what I, how I should say it. It sounds like me. When I don't like it, I'm like you know, I'll that Soften the tone and then it'll like fix it and things like that. Is there not? Do you all use anything where you take the details of these cases or something, scanning it, pulling out you know whether or not it was, you know a gunfire or not a gunfire or just whatever the deep not saying that humans then shouldn't come behind it and check it? But is there anything that has been automated about how these cases work? Then the human comes in to make or review everything.
Speaker 3:We've had research done. We've been audited as an office just a few years ago by an independent agency to see whether we have basically racism or discrimination built into our practices. But no, we don't have anything automated. I don't think there's a substitute for it. They'll be getting a file, opening it up, see what's alleged, see what the criminal record is, hear what the victim's position is right and what they want to see happen.
Speaker 3:A lot of my cases are somebody beat up, their grandmother. I got elder abuse. You need grandma downstairs so they can take some money and run and go buy some drugs. And should that guy go to prison? Maybe it was a stranger, but grandma is 80 years old and wants him to get drug help and psychological help. So I'm factoring in what the victim feels, the record of the defendant and seeing if I can't fashion something where the defendant's getting help and I'm not making it so that the grandma don't see the kid anymore for the rest of her life. So a lot of that can't be computerized. That's my long answer to that. You have to have people with the right mindset doing the job, and that's part of my job too, to get more people in the seats that have the right mindset.
Speaker 4:Well, you know, the hundred does coding and color and the kids are getting real good. So I feel like we need to put them on.
Speaker 2:We need to we need to meet them with the state attorney's office.
Speaker 4:Let the kids crack the code.
Speaker 3:See if there's something that that should be automated.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I won't lie, and looking at your bio, I could probably talk to you two more hours and of course that's not our podcast framework. So I'm going to have to just ask as we try to conclude it, looking at all these topics that are here that we didn't even get to get into.
Speaker 4:I'd love to just ask you, based on being on the inside. Something you said earlier was yeah, you have these optics from the outside. What's on the news, what you're thinking, what you know when you make these determinations. But on the inside, there's additional information that you have and a viewpoint that you have based on being exposed to the facts Knowing that you have, and a viewpoint that you have based on being exposed to the facts Facts, knowing that you have hate crimes, human trafficking.
Speaker 4:that really kind of sparked an interest for me that we didn't even get to. What do we not know? And I guess for me I'd like for you to just have this opportunity, based on all the things you see, to make sure that our listeners hear what's really happening, that you, being in the community, you may know that we just have no idea. We have no idea what's really happening.
Speaker 3:What would those you ask me to scare the community right now.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I am actually.
Speaker 1:I am, we didn't know we was asking you that. But yeah, go ahead, scare us yeah we need to know.
Speaker 3:No, I think young people and um with the internet, um, and it's been happening for a while, but the threats back and forth and the retaliations back and forth it's not always shootings, you know, it's not with somebody. The death make the headlines, but we have so much um violence toward one another so I don't know that. That bothers me. Um, there's a lot more financial crimes now. A lot of people aren't putting a gun in your face and robbing you, but they are taking your personal information and using that and um, so I get you know what. Really, I tell you a crowd that really I gotta do elder abuse. So the one that makes me mad, um, all that make me mad. This one makes me hot boiling.
Speaker 3:Where you're a nurse or you're a CNA and you got someone about to die. You know they're in death. I just got this got one kid just like this. They're in hospice or they're in death bed. You're supposed to be caring for them in their last moments of life and you take their pocketbook or whatever their wallet and take their credit cards and stuff and you you go spend $2,000 at Best Buy and you're going to treat the family to whatever. That's not the same as going to Walmart and stealing a TV man, that's. You got somebody that most vulnerable thing and I really do hate that.
Speaker 3:So community out there. I know my mom, you know, passed last year and you know we need people to care for her and my dad before that. You don't even know who to trust anymore. You go through an agency. We got so many crimes where they go through an agency and the agency didn't vet the person well enough to stop them. They got prior thefts and exportations and they're getting jobs and now we got our people just being victimized. And it's not race. It's not race Because I got defendants of all colors doing that same thing.
Speaker 3:Or say your grandparent is getting up in age, they share the right mind, but you know they're slipping a little bit. They're in a gray area. If you don't keep an eye on them and visit them all the time and really be in their lives, people will come in that gray area and get money from them and they're willingly giving it to them. So it's not even a crime, but it's unethical, right, and so it's right in that spot where criminals live, where they can take advantage of older adults and live where they can take advantage of um, of older adults, and so, um, I don't want to scare the whole public, I'm just saying you got to be diligent about who you let around your loved ones, I mean your kids and your uh, the most vulnerable populations are your children, the disabled and the elderly, and they get victimized so much, and it's not always to the violence that people are slick and getting slicker about how they do it, and it's um it's aggravating, but I, I can't look, I can't even talk about a certain topic.
Speaker 2:You promised me I could talk about this other topic you know, we went what's the other topic?
Speaker 3:the other topic is black people specifically, who got their degrees and they all, you know, they graduated, got their money. It's the, my four, no more mentality. So Ronnie and I do 100 Black Men. We do different things we do and it's always the same 10, 15 individuals doing all the work in the organization. And we know we got so many friends out there who on Friday they go home, they do the crab ball, whatever. They don't do no work in the community and they act like our people ain't struggling and hurting community and they act like our people ain't struggling and hurting like bro.
Speaker 3:You know I'm saying when I was a teenager I knew what I was gonna do in this, okay, what my occupation was. I knew I was gonna do so I'm preaching now, now, um, that's my, that's my preach right there, that everybody and I scream my, I scream my, I'm the boss of this and I scream I've been screaming our social action, share. What in the hell? You don't plan this fraternity and you don't do nothing. I'm talking about nothing for the frat, nothing in the hell. You don't plan this fraternity and you don't do nothing. I'm talking about nothing for the frat, nothing in the community, nothing in the city.
Speaker 4:Really, Well, tell them what to do then. All right, they're listening right now. Oh, I heard Ox interview. Oh, that was great. He talked about all the things. But now here I am with my degrees, taking care of my own family, eating my own crab boil, minding my own business. What do you want me to do?
Speaker 3:Where's your passion? Has your grandmother been mistreated? Do you see? Kids need mentoring. Where's your passion? Feed the homeless domestic violence.
Speaker 4:There's so many avenues where you can Stop on those four yes, yes, yes and yes.
Speaker 3:What do I do? Where do I go? It's organization. Just Google it right, you can volunteer for Hubbard House, it's that hard.
Speaker 3:Hubbardbard House is a name that's a name for domestic violence, abuse. I'm saying that everyone cares about something and if you don't care about something, just live long enough. It'll affect your life. So find something you're passionate about and then give beyond yourself. Just be unselfish in your living right. That's where we end with. Be unselfish about your life. Take care of yours, love yours, give them everything you can give them. But then I know, as far as our people, it's incumbent upon people who can to do a little bit more. That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:And I think we got to stop thinking about like it's some extracurricular thing. Ultimately, what happens in the community is going to impact us some way somehow. I think folks need to be able to make that connection. If they can you almost feel obligated you better go do something in the community.
Speaker 3:It's an obligation. I was doing an internship in 2001 or so for a law firm in Orlando. My two partners, my two internees with me other interns were like you're a Black person. I was like, yes, they're. Like, do you feel obligated to give back to the Black community when? You get out and take it and they were asking me.
Speaker 4:I was like wow, you're Black.
Speaker 3:Of course. Of course I feel like I got it back. They were like I accept that I know where I come from. So, anyway, leave it at that. I love the work y'all do Love you both. I owe so much to Ronnie King on a personal level, so he knows about that. And then my LJ17 classmate, Tia Leathers. I knew from the beginning, Tia, that you're my girl.
Speaker 4:That's right In a platonic sense if my wife listen. Hey, baby it ain't all that.
Speaker 1:We love you too back to back in that hotel. I'll give you the voice around here.
Speaker 4:We'll leave it out not for that kind of party.
Speaker 3:This is my brother through and through for sure, because apparently, like come on now.
Speaker 4:Not for that kind of party, not for that kind of this is my brother, through and through Right For sure we appreciate you Because, apparently, like, come on, now Recruit us some AKAs please.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's easy. Okay, all right, anyway, y'all good, yeah, yeah, we're good, that was perfect.
Speaker 1:Appreciate you. All right, I'm going.
Speaker 2:All right, I like to be educated, but I'm so frustrated. Hello to my loneliness. I guess that endurance is bliss. Take me back to before the noon Rewind. Take it out of queue. Innocence can be a human's game. Signed up for the hall of shame. I wish I knew how much I missed Not knowing that we're all screwed when we play our roles and ignore the problems. I like to be away and more patient. Stay up. I feel so outdated. How can we look the other way? Sun is out, but the sky is gray. What would happen if I took a chance? It's always hard at first glance. I don't wanna, but I know I gotta do it. The truth is hard to swallow. I think I'll chew it. Yeah yeah, the truth is hard to swallow. I think I'll chew it. I wish I knew how much I miss not knowing that we're all screwed when we play our roles and you're the problem. I wish I knew how much I miss not knowing that we're all screwed when we play our roles and ignore the problems. I wish I knew.