“The Gift of Failure” by Jessica Lahey (Part 3)

This episode explores insights from “The Gift of Failure” by Jessica Leahy, emphasizing the significance of allowing children to experience failure as a learning opportunity. We discuss the importance of trust between parents and teachers, strategies for fostering independence in homework, and the need to shift focus from grades to skill development. 

• Trusting teacher expertise is paramount 
• Building positive parent-teacher partnerships enhances student success 
• A collaborative mindset benefits the child’s education 
• Focusing on skills over grades leads to better outcomes 
• Allowing kids to struggle fosters resilience and problem-solving 
• Empowering children to manage their homework promotes responsibility 
• Avoid overparenting to ensure genuine learning experiences 
• Embracing mistakes as a crucial part of education is essential 
• Gradually stepping back supports children's independence in learning

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:27

Hey, hey, hey, coach Val, hey, dr Tiff, how are you? I'm doing well. How are you?

Speaker 2 0:33

I'm doing really good, awesome and just like that, it's our favorite day of the week Tuesday Talk. That's right. Welcome everybody. Thanks for joining us for another episode of Tuesday Talks. That's right. Welcome everybody. Thanks for joining us for another episode of Tuesday Talks. Whether you're joining us live on YouTube or listening on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, we're grateful for you. Remember to share this episode with some friends. And you know how we do. We don't waste time, we jump right in because we maximize our 30 minutes together each week.

Speaker 2 1:02

We are wrapping up our book discussion the Gift of Failure. If you've been joining us for the past two weeks, we have been discussing each part of Jessica Leahy's book the Gift of Failure how the best parents learn to let go so their children can succeed and we're going to wrap up our discussion to talk about part three and the whole book was great, but I really thought part three gave some very applicable and easy to use strategies for parents as they are navigating homework time, interactions with parents, giving their kids autonomy in the realm of their grades, so she really covered a lot in this last part. What were some of the things that stuck out to you, val so?

Speaker 1 1:58

like you said, she gave practical takeaways for parents, for teachers valuable teachers as well at home and for school. So I like the part about the parents and how the parents can interact with the teachers. I think this is something that we've talked about on our show before, about on our show before, and one of the very first things she mentions is trust your teacher's expertise and so, coming from the teacher perspective, I wholeheartedly stand behind this. You know you always have the very few, the very small minority of teachers who are not there, but for the most part, teachers are there because they want to teach the kids and educate them, and so we go through a process for that, we go to school for that, we get degrees for that, we do continuing education, learning for that, and so trust that expertise in that teacher, because it also helps with the teacher student relationship as well.

Speaker 2 3:11

Right. I thought that was a really great part too. I always like to think of it like this, as you're starting to form relationships with teachers, just remembering that no teacher is coming into the classroom working towards making the kids less smart than when they worked in, walked in. No parent is putting their kids on the bus or dropping them off at school because they want them to come back home knowing less than when they went to school. So we start out with that premise that each person the teacher and the parent is showing up with the child's success in mind. I think that goes a long way to set the tone and respecting the teacher and trusting the teacher's expertise. I think it sets a good foundation to have a more productive school year.

Speaker 2 4:05

And I know she talked about, instead of questioning a teacher's judgment, consider that educators have all of that experience and so, instead of going in with a very accusatory finger, wag, ask some questions to gain some insight and then, once you have the insight, I think then you can start to draw some conclusions. But we don't want to just assume things out of the gate. How have you? She talked about in the book how she was in the office trying to hide from a parent who was ready to give her the business and how that altered the way that she noted how well the kid was doing in class. She still was there to teach the child, she still wanted the child to succeed, but she wasn't readily reaching out to that parent to say, hey, they're doing really good in this or hey, they're really struggling here. Because the vibe had been thrown off from that initial interaction where this parent came into the school ready to get into an argument and it shifted the, I think, the vibration of their relationship, their partnership.

Speaker 1 5:13

Absolutely. I most definitely, out of 18 and a half years, have had parents who were very disgruntled with me, and I mean, in some situations, just to be honest, I was just as disgruntled with them as well. And so two things to that. Because in that example she literally said she sent the message about the child to the parent 30 minutes prior to feeling this way and the parent was already at the school wanting to handle it or whatever. So, yes, one thing that happens is it doesn't. This is just like any human to human relationship.

Speaker 1 5:58

If you interact with another human and that's not a good experience especially if it's not just not good but it's also there's anger involved, which resentment can come out of that you don't want to interact with that human again, Like that's just simple human nature. And so for teachers, if we come across parents who are that way towards us, we're human. Parents who are that way towards us, we're human. We don't want to interact with you if we feel like all you're going to do is try to nitpick, like you said, point the finger or just always find something to be critical about. The second thing is, because of that interaction with you, like it or not, it also kind of puts a different lens on us when we view your child, because it's a part of that. Now the good teachers are going to try to do their best to not make that a hindrance.

Speaker 1 6:58

But you do have to understand, parents, that you are causing a sort of obstacle in the relationship that the teacher can have with the kid. And that has happened to me personally. I've had kids who their parents have been high status or whatever, and so those parents, typically with every teacher of that child, they're always hovering, they're always nitpicking. If there's one little thing that's off, they're looking to attack and accuse instead of, like you said, ask questions to figure out what's really the problem or how can we all come to a solution. So it really did hinder the effectiveness that I have as a teacher because I'm that teacher that, because I build those relationships, it magnifies the impact on the kid.

Speaker 2 7:52

Of course. And so imagine you're a first year teacher and you are getting this reaction from a parent that you are not well prepared for. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think teacher ed programs are going through role plays of how to deal with difficult or challenging parents. It's like trial by fire. You just are figuring it out, getting tips and tricks and strategies from colleagues. But so imagine being that first year teacher and that's setting the tone.

Speaker 2 8:24

She mentioned how teachers are leaving the workforce in droves and not encouraging their kids to go into education, and it really comes back to this sense of being undermined as the expert in the room. And so I'm very much a proponent of letting people show you who they are. They'll tell on themselves in short order. So let the teacher show you who they are. Go into the school year with the mindset of this person is here to help my child. And when you run into instances where you feel like that may not be reflected in the way you would like to see it, then you can approach those instances one at a time. But to just go in ready for a fight and ready to nitpick every little thing, it's going to make a stressful year for you. It's going to make a stressful year for the teacher and the kid is the one who suffers.

Speaker 2 9:19

And she talked a lot about not talking about your child's teacher in front of your child. So, in conversation with your friends, not putting the teacher down talking about things they did wrong we know how kids come to school. They say especially little ones they're going to come back and tell everything that their mom or dad said at home. Well, my mom said that you don't even know what you're doing. Or dad said at home, or my mom said that you don't even know what you're doing, they will come to school and say that. So even if you're saying you know, don't repeat, or you feel like they're not listening, they are listening. So just be mindful of that. And I think that was a really, a really good point that she made in the book as well. What else stood out for you, val?

Speaker 1 10:03

Well, in sort of in the same vein. So you know, we're saying don't be confrontational, and for some people I get it Like that's how you've gone your whole life and you address things and it comes off as confrontational. And so you might be like well, so I mean, how, how do I approach it? Like, what do I do? Give me the tools?

Speaker 1 10:26

Well, one thing she suggested was how to keep the conversation open and she simply said like, change the question. You're asking the same thing, but ask it in a different way. So instead of being like, why isn't my child doing better in your math class? You know that language automatically puts the person on the other side in defense, just by the way it's said. So instead, you know, think about saying how can I support my kid at home with their math? My kid at home with their math? What are some things that you see in class that my kid is doing or my kid needs help with, so that we can support them better at home. That leaves the door more open. That also lets the teacher know that I am here as a collaborator with you, versus I am in opposition with you, because I feel like you're doing this to my kids.

Speaker 2 11:30

Yeah, I thought that was a really good point Approaching with an attitude of curiosity rather than blame. I think that she summed it up really well putting it in those terms. And when we do that and we ask questions and we ask the questions like you, just you gave the example from the book what can I do at home? You're taking on some responsibility. It's not just teacher, you're in charge of all learning. Don't ask me to do anything, this is all on you and you're really becoming a collaborative partner. And I think that's why the language shifted from parent-teacher relationships to parent-teacher partnerships, because it does take both, maybe even overlapping in some areas, to really build the best situation and environment interactions. That, I think, helped the kid out the most. One other thing that I think she said was focused on the big picture.

Speaker 2 12:26

This one stood out to me, so I'm sure if you've heard me on here before talked about grades. She said, rather than fixating on grades or test scores, parents should remember that school is about preparing children for life and we can get fixated on grades because that is in our public school system. That is what gets kids from fourth grade to fifth grade. That is what gets kids on the AB honor roll and acknowledged at a program. That is what gets kids into college with a GPA. So there's a place for grades, but not fixating on those. She talked about how it can impact your relationship with your child when you fixate on grades all the time. And she mentioned how one parent said well, she talked to some students actually and the student said I enjoy talking with my parents, but at the dinner table it's always about my grades. It's always about what grade did you get here? How can you make your grades better here? How can you make your grades better here? And she said I started to just disengage at the dinner table because I don't want to talk about that all the time. I want to be asked about maybe my social groups, maybe clubs that I'm involved in at school, and not always about grades.

Speaker 2 13:38

And so when she mentioned grades, she also talked about letting kids fail, like getting that F on a paper and and you know you could have helped them do much better Um but letting them see that, to feel that emotion that comes with it, and how they're going to dig themselves out of that hole. What's their bounce back spirit? What are they going to do to now offset that F on the next quiz or the next test that comes up or the next project that they have due as well. I know with all your years in the school system, you're very familiar with grades and you have turn in grades. We talked on here about how teachers are required to collect so many grades per grading period. So many grades per grading period. It's grades, grades, grades at the forefront, so it is hard to ignore grades when that is the basis for a lot of promotion and maybe getting a kid in a gifted and all these things. So how have you or have you talked with parents about life skills versus grades and what that kind of blend looks like?

Improving Grades and Parent Communication

Speaker 1 14:44

Yeah, definitely. Within the school system it's a whole lot harder because, like you said, everything is centered around what number is assigned to this child for this thing. And I've had an issue, honestly, with grades since I first started teaching. My very first year I really didn't even like them when I was in school. But I'm a teenager, everybody's going through school. But my first year teaching I sat down and I just started thinking about this grading thing and how sometimes the grade did not even reflect what the student actually knew. Once I started looking at their work and I was like there's got to be a different way. And since then there's been like standards based grading and lots of other things that have come up.

Speaker 1 15:36

Having the conversation with the parent, I have found that if I talk more about the learning and the growth that I'm seeing in the child and then I assure them that if they stay on this trajectory of learning and growth, then their grades will follow that. And you know some parents that they're always making great grades. But one thing that I've been able to do is when they do make the failing grade number one, teachers get ahead of it. So go ahead and contact that parent. That, you know, is very concerned, very involved. Go ahead and call them as soon as you put the grade on the paper, if you can, as soon as you finish the stack. Send them a message or call them whichever one's convenient for you and them, and just say, hey, this is what I've seen.

Speaker 1 16:56

Now, this is what little Johnny made on the test. But let me break this down for you and tell you what the stuff you know leading up to it, what I've seen and noticed, and how this is good. So I've had a kid that had like a they made like a 60 something on a test, and they had been coming to tutoring and you know. But they went from making like forties and fifts and so the kid was very discouraged because it was like I still didn't pass. I was like no, no, no, no, no, no. I need you to see this from a different frame. Okay, you are improving. Imagine what the next test will be and you have to do the same thing with the parents.

Speaker 2 17:39

Yeah, that's huge. I think that's really a good suggestion for teachers to get ahead of things. She talked about so much in this part. She talked about modeling respectful behavior. We talked about that a little bit ago. When kids hear their parents criticizing their teachers, they kind of start to lower their level of respect for the teacher as well. So being very mindful of that, for the teacher as well, so being very mindful of that, asking how to help at home is super important and embracing mistakes as learning opportunities. So when you know your child has a presentation coming up and you can see that they haven't put much effort into getting their notes together, research, whatever they have to do, letting it be what it, what it's going to be, making sure that you are really allowing those setbacks to become the teachable moments for your kids and resisting the urge to intervene too quickly.

Speaker 2 18:35

When I read this part, I thought back to last week on the radio, just driving to school, they had some parents call in and one parent said my kids, two of them elementary age, had projects that they had to do and they hadn't worked on the projects at all and what they were left with the night before it was due or the day before it was due wasn't up to par. So the mom and the dad stayed up, redid both projects. The kids get up in the morning, come downstairs see their projects. One of them was like thanks, the other one was like I don't like this, was not appreciative at all, and so the's like you know, I couldn't believe that she didn't like what we did, and the whole time I'm listening it's like this was not how it was supposed to go. You let them take that trash project to school and you let them turn it in and you let them get the grade.

Speaker 2 19:38

And if you feel like we talked about this on here before that the way your child presents that school, what they bring to school, is a reflection on you, which which it shouldn't be. But some of us I will say me, I take that very personally Email the teacher to say, hey, little Johnny did not put much effort in. I know what he is bringing in for the presentation is well below my standards for him and it should be below his standards for him too, but I want him to get the feedback and the grade that is associated with the effort he put in. Then that way it kind of takes this pressure off of you to put forth this kid with this amazing project and let the teacher know you are aware, so you're not just oblivious, that this didn't get done, you're aware, and letting them know, hey, come what may, because the kid has to learn.

Speaker 2 20:34

She also mentioned science fair projects, where it's inherent in science for your hypothesis to be wrong so that you can change it up for the next time. And so when parents intervene, it throws off that natural pattern, that natural cadence of success and failure, success and failure and then success. And so we really have to embrace those mistakes and learning opportunities, especially when it comes to homework. She really gave some great strategies for homework. How did you feel about that section?

Building Self-Reliance in Students

Speaker 1 21:11

So I love this section. Just like grades have been a thorn in my side, so has homework throughout my career, so, like this part of the book, ms Leahy was right up my alley Like I was just eating it up. One of the things she mentioned was, or two things creative, supportive environment and let kids struggle and problem solve. So this was particularly interesting for me because of the math that I teach, I think it's the subject that has the most in it, like it's inherent that you need to problem solve. And so, first of all, creating the environment. She suggested that like we should let our kids pick where they want to do their homework in the house, like the spot. She also suggested that we should give our kids autonomy to decide when they were going to do the homework, as long as it gets done when it's supposed to be done, right. And that was an example in the book and this was the example.

Speaker 1 22:17

I was like, oh, I don't know if I can, I don't think I'm there yet, but there was this little second grader that she talked about, that her parents were trying to force her to do her homework, like right after school when they got from home and the kid refused to do it. The kid was like I need to to relax, I need to debrief, like I just can't do it. And so, finally, the mom asked her. She said well, in an ideal world, when would you like to do your homework? And the girl, the second grade, said I, I would set my alarm clock for 4.30 in the morning and I'd wake up and I'd get it done. I clutched my pearls, if I may, because I'm wearing them today. I was like what? And it ended up that they gave the little girl a week trial, told them you have to be ready in the morning by this time because we're getting out the door. And the girl did it successfully and never missed her homework again.

Speaker 1 23:15

They said even in college she still continued the pattern of getting up super early in the morning and getting her work done. So, um, we will be surprised at when you allow kids to be self-aware because that's what it took for that second grader and let them decide based on that what's best for them. You'll be surprised what they would actually come up with. They're not all trying to get out of doing things, but they do understand enough to know this is what I need to be successful. And then let them figure it out, Let them struggle if they need to struggle. Let them go through the problem solving and just let them know that you're there if they need the support.

Speaker 2 23:59

Yeah, I thought that was a really good example that she gave in the book too Letting them struggle, letting them problem solve and just realizing that the way we have organized and structured our lives, the way we get things done as parents, doesn't necessarily have to be the way our kids have to do it as well. We can give them our method and then let them choose. Is that the method for you or a variation of that? Is that what works best for you? I agree with you. A kid tells me they're going to wake up at 4.30 in the morning to do their homework. I'm like, okay, I wouldn't think that there would be high success. But you know, get your popcorn, sit back and watch and see how it turns out. Just give it a try. So I think asking that question of the child and then letting the child decide it gives them some ownership of the work that they're doing. She talked about the tendency for parents to take over, how one mom and dad carved out hours after work and school to sit with their kids through the entire homework process, and she said that's a no, that's a no-no, and I agree with that. She mentioned something that I've said before to my own kids I don't have other things to do. She said that in the book. Let kids know that you have other obligations versus sitting here for hours only and, after school, helping them with homework.

Speaker 2 25:27

She mentioned that schools tend to give homework. That isn't super easy and that isn't covering new concepts. It's tied to things that they've learned during the school day or maybe during that week, and so it is practice. That can be somewhat challenging, but they should be able to get through the majority of it without you sitting right there next to them, because that is very. It creates a habit that the kids feel like I need someone to sit here with me in order to get my work done, and if they're not going to do their homework on their own, the likelihood of them learning from what they're doing while you're sitting next to them is minimal. It's just not going to work because they need you to be there to explain, redirect, help them think through something. She said let them sit at the space that you've designated for homework and come ask you if they have any questions. Let me know if you have questions and allow them to come to you, and so you're acting as the guide and not as a doer, and if they ask for help, give them that guidance. But let them do the thinking, let them do the writing themselves.

Speaker 2 26:38

She noted one student I can't remember the grade, but she said they were working on a paper like a writing paper and the paper came back with very eloquent sentence structure. Everything got such a high grade on it and it came back, but the mom had essentially written all of that for her daughter or the. The student who was working on the math work and then showing his work in his homework was using very advanced math problem-solving skills that they hadn't even learned yet because the dad was at home essentially doing the homework for him. And it shows because when that same student would take quizzes in class and do tests, his grades were not in alignment with what he was getting done and showing he could do for homework. So it's going to show, it undermines your kids and it makes you turn into their crutch.

Speaker 2 27:41

And we are busy. Whether you are a single parent or you have two parent household, we are busy. And I've told him this many times in school year I am not in the fourth grade, I use I find myself saying we, we have to practice this, we should. I'm like hold on, hold on, hold on. I'm in the fourth grade, I don't have to do anything. Don't tell you you need to go, do whatever your teacher says you need to do. You should probably do that. You should probably carve out time just today. Hey, you might want to make some time to go over that math work, but it's up to you. I'm not going to sit and have the tears. We've done that. The tears at the table. She talked about this in the book. The tears, the crying, the yelling, the all of the attitude, the frustration. Oh, it doesn't, do you think your kid learned anything in that moment?

Speaker 1 28:39

no, nope, not until they calm down and not until you calm down like it, it will not happen. Yeah, I loved as again from the educator, but I do this with my own kids that she said as they grow. So, yes, of course, at the beginning, when they're younger, like you give them a framework, you kind of set the foundation but you don't stay and you don't hover the foundation but you don't stay and you don't hover, or else you're reinforcing to them the fact that they're not able to do this without help. And the whole point of learning is to understand how you learn, so that you can be a self-learner, so that you can be a lifelong learner. Adulting is still about learning. You still have to learn things and nobody's going to sit there with you constantly on your job, teaching you over and over again, reminding you over and over again that this is what needs to be done and this is how it needs to be done. And then, if you get so lucky to get a certain type of job, you're responsible for figuring that stuff out. Anyway. You have to create the way it's supposed to be done and how it's supposed to look.

Speaker 1 29:55

So focusing on gradually also stepping back more and more as they get older. So you don't stay there. You go in the kitchen and you do something else, or you go sit down and read a book and you're doing something else. The point is, this is your homework, this is your responsibility. You have resources available that you can use for help. I'm included in that, but this is not my job. That gradual step back teaches them to trust themselves and to handle their own responsibilities and challenges. And if you you know you're concerned, like you said, reach out to the teacher, let them know. This is what I'm trying at home with the kids. So if he comes, she comes in with something that's not par, then just know OK, this is what I'm doing and hopefully it gets better.

Speaker 2 30:54

But be patient, it'll work out. Yeah, that gradual step back and just being patient with the process, and even if it means she said this in the book even if it means accepting lower grades or unfinished homework in the short term, those experiences teach valuable lessons about accountability and problem solving, and those are two life skills that will help them fare well as they get older and older being able to problem solve and holding themselves accountable to get things done. If you're constantly having to remind your child about every single thing, take a step back. If you hear yourself constantly saying did you get your homework done? Did you do your homework? Have you finished your homework? Did you do your homework? Let me check your homework, take a step back. Enjoy a moment by yourself. Go, you know, do something else instead of you know very much hovering over them. So hopefully you all will check out this book. I think it was great If you just joined us tonight for part three.

Speaker 2 32:00

Be sure to go back, listen to parts one and two. We covered a lot from the book. Pick it up, let us know what you think, share this episode with friends, colleagues, and really try to use it as a point of reflection as well. So with that, we will see you all next week for another great episode. Bye, thank you.