Conversation with Aaron Kramer

Please enjoy my conversation with Aaron Kramer. 

By exploring the intersection between the found and fabricated in his sculptural work, Aaron seeks a deeper understanding of the transcendent nature of ordinary objects. His work is often of a woven nature. Street sweeper bristles or reclaimed hardwoods are woven over welded steel armatures creating a skin. Whether skinning an object or new ways, he is excited by the process of reinvention. At the core of this sensibility is the belief that “trash is the failure of imagination”.

http://www.urban-objects.com/ 

https://www.youtube.com/@urbanobjects

https://www.instagram.com/urbanobjects/?hl=en

https://craftcouncil.org/

Wolf E Miro https://closeoutjewelryfindings.com/

https://theloftatlizs.com/

https://rediscovercenter.org/

https://www.tinkeringschool.com/

This podcast was created by Natalya Khorover. It was produced and recorded by Natalya, as well as researched and edited by her. SALVAGE is a product of ECOLOOP.ART.

If you enjoy this show, please rate and review us wherever you’re listening—and be sure to come back for another conversation with a repurposed media artist.

Music theme by RC Guida

Visit Natalya’s website at www.artbynatalya.com

Visit Natalya’s community at www.repurposercollective.com

Visit Natalya’s workshops at https://www.ecoloop.art/

Transcript

Welcome to Salvage, a podcast for conversations with artists about the repurposed materials they use in their art practice.

Please enjoy my conversation with Aaron Kramer. By exploring the intersection between the found and the fabricated in his sculptural work

Aaron seeks a deeper understanding of the transcendent nature of ordinary objects. His work is often of a woven nature

street sweeper bristles, or reclaimed hardwoods are woven over welded steel armatures, creating a skin, whether skinning an object or finding new ways to work it. He is excited by the process of reinvention. At the core of this sensibility is the belief that trash is the failure of imagination.

Well thank you Aaron, for joining me. I really appreciate you taking the time. I was wondering, I know you you probably have been to my website. I was wondering if you noted what kind of quote I have at the very top of my website.

Did I see you have. Trash is a failure of imagination. Yes. I was. You know, that's a quote of yours that I had written down. Oh, my gosh, I don't even know how many years ago. Before I even knew who you were, I think when I first saw the quote, I kind of did a quick Google search and I didn't find an Aaron Kramer that would make sense for that quote.

And then I got distracted and I forgot about it. But I've had it in various forms on my website or in my sketchbooks or in my studio. I just think it's so frickin brilliant. And thank you. Thank you. It is true. It is very true. I use that motto often. Yeah. It, And in either teaching context or others, it's really, it helps people understand a little bit better about the idea that there is no way when you throw trash away, it's still here on this planet.

It doesn't go out in outer space. And so, the more we look at trash as a resource and as something that can be reused or reimagined, the better. So that that helps. Hopefully that idea of being the failure of imagination reinforces that. Absolutely, absolutely. But let me take you back, to your childhood, if you don't mind.

Oh, sure. Were you an artist as a kid? I was, I was that kid. Often referred to as Aaron, that kid who draws. And it was always following deep into a world of, of drawing. And and I have I actually have a sketchbook from when I was about 8 or 9 years old with these inventions of, of secret agent outfits and clubhouses and all kinds of things I would build.

And Thursday night was my favorite night. That was the night that people put trash out. I would I would ride around the neighborhood. And I kind of learned this from my mother, who, would screech to a halt in front of some monumental pile of trash and, and start pulling things out. And we had a sewing cabinet that, was a lovely thing that she found

street side. But I would go looking for motors and of core electronics and, things that I could take apart and, building materials. So I was making video cards at the time and ports and, yeah, I had a great memory of sitting at the kitchen table while the bustle of the kitchen was going on, and I was deep into a, radio that I had found.

And, poking around to see what was what. And of course, I had a plugged in and there was just this sudden arc, and the sparks flew everywhere. Everybody stopped what they were doing, looked at me and I, you know, was in shock that, I almost electrocuted myself. But, yeah, I, I loved, collecting stuff and building stuff.

My, we had a series of workshops, one in the basement first, and then when we built the garage, we had one out in the garage. And my dad was always very generous about giving me access to his tools. He was a jeweler, and, he had a four shift, drill that I used quite a bit. And, and, old ham radio.

So I would tune in to the BBC, and, and be able to, make stuff and take stuff apart and, you know, even even after that, my parents divorced. I was, still using the garage, and I took apart the lawnmower because I really needed that motor for something else. And I couldn't get it, couldn't get it back together again.

But, yeah, there's always been a through line. Whether it was Legos or, building quartz or making crystal radios of of making of making things, for, for myself and, and, my friends always thought I was a little strange, I think. But, there are a couple, a couple friends whose dads had garages also where they made stuff and they were, you know, doing the traditional Boy Scout stuff with soapbox derby and, other things.

And, I was I was definitely in, like, like making weird stuff. Yeah. That's awesome. What did you go to school for? I went to school for graphic design. And, my parents had convinced I wanted to be an illustrator. Early days. And, my parents convinced me that, you needed more of a profession. And so I started in the design program at Northern Illinois University, called Visual Communications.

And it was a pretty rigorous, a very rigorous programs where after sophomore year, they had a, a portfolio review, and they cut half the class. Oh, wow. So once you made that cut, then you went on to finish. And so I did everything from exhibition design and, corporate identities to, publication design, and package design.

Wow. And, came out with a, pretty solid portfolio, and then, traveled with a friend to Europe and, with our bicycles and, and I didn't own a car. It was 30. So, bicycle was my main means of getting around, and, so I, we basically traveled around England, and I, I rode, France top to bottom.

Came back after that kind of realizing that I didn't know much about America as much as I did Europe at that point and kind of vowed to, see the United States by bicycle, starting job at, in Chicago. I had a choice of three jobs, that I was offered. One was at the Field Museum of Natural History, designing exhibitions.

Oh, well, another one was an outside magazine as an assistant art director. And then the third one was at a small design firm in Chicago that had one of the first Macintosh computers. Oh, I grabbed onto that one. And they also were, were were promising that I would be able to run my own jobs and be able to, meet with the clients and do all aspects of it, from initial meetings to final print production.

Oh, cool. So I took that job and, we went from an office and 3 or 4 people to about 20 people, and I trained everybody how to use the Macintosh computer and then actually doing some moonlighting, training people how to use, Adobe Illustrator and Photoshop and, and, and a couple other, page maker and some other, applications at the time.

And, but, after working there for about two years, I, I wasn't getting any closer to this goal of riding around the United States, and so I, I set a date. Yeah. And so I set a date, and I decided, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to leave and start my own company and, started my own design firm, also doing still some training on the side and doing corporate identity and doing promotional stuff for real estate and, saved up $10,000, seven days and, gave away my Rolodex and you remember what those were?

Yes. I remember all my nice clothes and, put everything into a small storage locker. Got on my bicycle and started riding east. Rode as far north as, Montreal, as far east as Nova Scotia, as far as southwest or southeast as Florida Keys, then to Vegas and then Seattle and then all the way back over 13.5 months on the road.

Oh my God, 11,500 miles as a 24 year old, all by myself. And, along the way, I was I started collecting things. So I was like a crow. I'd see something shiny on the road, and I'd investigate and pick it up. Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait. But you were traveling by bicycle. I was.

So where were you keeping all this stuff? You were fine. I had about 70 pounds a pack on the bike. So front, ten year, front pack and front, ten years, rear panniers, and then, a sleeping roll. I mean, this is the bicycle we're talking about. This is a bicycle. This is not a motorcycle. No, it's a as they say in England, a pushbike.

Yes. I had a, I was, I wow, bicycling. So I was averaging about 60 miles a day. And, would certainly if I had found the perfect, if I found the, you know, the perfect diner, I would stop and and have a luxurious, you know, couple of hours, chatting up the waitress or, meeting new people sitting out in front of a grocery store eating a can of beans.

I would meet people who would invite me to their homes and say, hey, need a place to stay? You can camp in my yard. And then they'd offer me keys that our house and, well, we're going to go wait for the weekend, lock up and leave keys behind. Wow. So I, I found America and and through it also was finding objects and finding them on the road, finding them in, flea markets.

And, people were giving me objects and I had a system where things would come into the front pack, and then they would, eventually, kind of matriculate towards the, towards the rear panniers where I had the, the good stuff. Okay. So so that was like the evaluation in the front. Yes. You rode with it for a while, and it was looking at it, decided it was going to be good enough to stay.

And then at night, I would in, in campgrounds or I would I get a lot of, kind of farmers back 40 camping, where they no one saw me go in and no one saw me come out. And, I would, I would, when I had a little piece of time, I would set up my, my kit and I would start making postcards, postcard size collages of these found objects.

Oh, wow. So what was in your kit? So it was a maker kit that had everything from, small tools to materials. So everything was. And, I didn't use any adhesives because I was, I was trying to be conscious of of the archival quality of what I was doing. And so things were sewn to, a cardboard backboard.

Oh, sewn, like with a needle and thread with a needle and thread and and I know, some people may not be able to view this, but, so pieces like this where. So we have a barbed wire, we have a measuring tape. We had some kind of a metal object. Yeah. Yep. So there's an animal bone. Yeah.

There's a jawbone from, probably a raccoon. There's, a shell. There's an old map. And so I would have some materials that would show up often, like the old charts that I found in New England. And then others that were were unique to a place or time. And each each piece told a story. There's over 50 of these objects.

Wow. And everyone is completely different, but they're all the same form factor. They're they were just kind of for about fixed, ratio, whether it's horizontal or vertical. And in this particular case, I was, I was in the middle of Texas and a lot of storms are coming through, and I've been chased by storms all day.

And I set up camp, in a farmer's back 40 and was, was hunkered down as the storm was coming in. And it got so bad that I had to move my bike away from my tent because the lightning was so bad. Oh my gosh. And then I heard what would, I later found out was a tornado, but it sounded like a freight train coming my way.

And, and so in the morning when I woke up, there was, there are trees down everywhere. And I survived this horrible night, but there was a barbed wire fence I had to get over. And there was this, this piece of barbed wire was the tail that was hanging off of, the fence. And I snapped it off and it became part of the piece.

Wow. And this piece is called How the West Was Won. And it's really about how barbed wire kind of defined properties and then stop migrations and, and, and stopped, you know, people from and people were suddenly staking a claim to what, land was naturally just, open to everything, so. Wow. Yeah. So what did you do with these?

Like, did you carry all of these postcard sized pieces with you? As you know, each each one has its own, owner's manual that, went with it, which dictated the the day each object was found. I was a little obsessive. I met, I document when the object was found, where it was found, and that related to an overall map, the story behind the object, if there was one.

And then the overall the story of the piece dated, small illustration of it packaged and then sent back to my mom, who is collecting all this stuff for me. And she was collecting the film rolls. And then she was getting developed for me because I was shooting 35 millimeter film at the time. I was shooting, shooting super eight millimeter movie footage also, as well as, the journals and illustrations.

And I was making my own postcards, drawing them and sending them to people. And I recovered all that work at the end, of the trip and mounted an exhibition of the work, complete with a set up of the tent and, and the bike and, giant, proof sheets of the, of the photographs, and some, some rolls of, of the super eight millimeter, playing on repeat.

So when you set out on your journey and the beginning, did you already have an idea that you were going to be recording it like this, that you were going to be making all these? I had an Asian idea, you know, as a graphic designer, I, I had a visual story that I thought I could tell and, some of the earliest pieces, the big idea was I would make something and then literally send it through the post and see what happened.

And so, the early, early ones that I did retrieve back from people, I sent them to, were beat up in the mail and, and had had really kind of suffered, because, because they weren't protected at all. I was just seeing how far I could go with it. And so I then did, I started building up a, once I kind of got 10 or 15 in, I was, I was really like, okay, I think, I've got something here.

It's a visual diary. And so it's a way to tell the story. And also having, been introduced to a lot of new media at the time, which would be, interactive CD-ROMs. I had this idea that I wanted to create a digital book. And this is this is 1988. Okay. Thank you. 1988 89. But I had this idea of a digital book that you would, the the collages would become a chapter opener.

You would click on an object and it would take you to a story, and it could be a story about, a story about the object itself, a story about the person who gave me the object or a photograph or some other, link that then would kind of lead you on this wandering journey through the material, and you could then zoom back out, come to a map, and choose a place on the map where there there were these little icons, and then zoom back in.

And do you ever create that? It's still in progress. 35 years later? You know, I'm kind of relieved to hear that, to be honest. It's it's it's it is, it's a Yoker. I imagine my kids are going to have to do it for me at some point, but, but I'm trying, I really am. I, I have had several people interested in funding it.

I've had people, you know, it's been pushing forward and waiting for it to happen. I've even talked with publishers about it, but it's such a, I need an editor, I need a strong editor, because there's so much content. There's so many stories of, of the adventure. And it was, it was my graduate school.

It was my way of of seeing, America finding out what America was about during 1980, 89. It was my way of, kind of reinforcing the humanity that still exists in this country. So I came back, from that trip as an artist and, identified that strongly as, okay, I'm an artist now. Yeah.

And, then then started, of course, necessity, meant that I had to still do a little bit design design work and a little bit of training. I took a job, training an entire staff of, package designers on how to use Macintosh computers. And, during the during that time, I was also making, what I, called tabletop scale objects.

From recycled materials. It was then that I recycled materials, so I'm glad you asked. So it was, it was at that time, I, was walking the streets of Chicago, and I looked down and found this little piece of metal, and, it couldn't figure out what it was. And there was, there was another one there at the curb, and, finally realized that they were the, the, bristles from the street sweepers that had broken off, and they had ended up in the gutter, it snapped off.

And but they were really a very tensile steel. They, they sprung back and, so I started messing around with those and eventually decided I was going to start weaving, an orb and the orb turned into a basket because I couldn't finish it, couldn't complete the sphere. And, and then I started collecting more and a couple pieces I was making had knots and, made from that material, but I had, developed a kind of a small, small grouping of, of sculptures that ended up, in a window at Tiffany's, wound up.

And my brother did display work. And so he, he asked if he could borrow some to put them in the windows of these little between windows and draping very high end jewelry over, these these kind of rustic objects. Yeah. And, a guy who was walking by on Michigan Avenue saw them, and he worked for a company that made display items for, for department stores.

he saw something in the work and asked me if I could develop a line of objects to sell them for distribution to stores. So I took it on as a challenge. I have, this small representation here of one of them, and this is, that is an eight inch diameter, woven sphere inside of it.

And the stamp ball to, a wooden ball covered in vintage, trading stamps, like, like it's an H. What's the sphere made from? These are recycled street sweeper bristles. That's what they look like. See, if you told me it was would I would believe you, right, right. And so I I'm not a trained weaver. I'm a, intuitive, random weaver.

But I feel like there's weaving is in our DNA. Yeah. I think there is. There is this such a long history of of, patent dating and, over under. Over under. Yeah. Yeah. That, it's it's just endemic to who we are. Genetically, so I started weaving spheres. Some were woven like this.

Others were constructed in a very specific pattern that I invented back then. And, it's very it looks very geometric, at times. And then I had a series of stands. Some were, bed springs, vintage bed springs, that were supporting the objects. And so in this window, they, they were more sculptural, for the, the product line, they were they were much more systematized.

They had a three inch diameter, 1A5 inch diameter 1 to 8 inch, the six inch diameter one and eight inch diameter one. And did you make them two or did you have somebody else made? So I made them. And then the orders started coming in and I started, panicking a little bit because I was having a hard time keeping up with production.

And then, parallel to that, I applied to a, I had some work in a small store. The owner of the store, suggested I apply to the American Craft Council, show. And it, it was a wholesale show. And so the idea being that I would show up with a line of objects and I already had the the beginning of it.

And then I would sell these objects to stores, to galleries, and, and the like, in order to, start a production line. So, I, I designed this line of objects that included, some jewelry made from found objects and. Oh, cool. It was literally like scraps of, I would take a tail light that I would find in an intersection where there was an accident, and I would carve the tail light into a heart, and, oh, how dazzle it with, old screen and have chains that were made from old cuckoo clock chains.

Or, old rosaries. And it was very eclectic and, very rough, but, there was, there was, definitely an esthetic, a found esthetic to it. And and then also I was making some furniture and some display cases, and then also, the spheres and, I had my first show in 1990, I believe it was 91.

I noticed there was a line forming in front of my booth before it opened. And, as soon as it opened, my wife and I were writing orders as fast as we could. Oh, wow. I still filled my ears. This is a I think the show was in February. I filled my ears. Then I backfilled my ears, and then I filled into the next year.

Oh my gosh. Wow. So had in 1991 dollars and $70,000 in orders that I had to. Now I was committed to the making. So, I slowed down on the graphic design work that had been doing and started, production. And, eventually sort of falling behind, realized I needed help. I needed, manufacturing help, hired a series of people, hired a neighbor, who I taught how to make stuff and, and a couple other people and mustard through and kind of had had the initial problems of quality wasn't quite what it should have been and then got got that under control.

And, resources were were suddenly scarce. Like I was having a hard time finding street sweeper bristles. I, I clean the streets and found all the, all the scrap. And so I needed to, I needed to go out and find where they came from. And so I ended up hooking up with a guy who, I knew a woman whose husband worked at streets and sanitation in Chicago, met him in a back alley.

He opened his trunk. He had, like, ten broken bristles that he pulled out of the trash. I gave him a case of beer, and, you know, transaction complete. And I went back to making stuff. And eventually, as I moved to California after that and, started, started a studio there, kept some people working in Valparaiso, Indiana, found new resources for street sweeper bristles in California, better quality ones, not as rusty because, you know, it's California and and, and then and trash is very localized to.

Oh, absolutely. That, you know, wherever you go, there's, there's a I like to be a biologist and, and really check and check what, what is predominant in that area. And so the work shifted a little bit when I moved to California, and in 93 or 4, 94 and, and then also started hiring some people, to help me make the jewelry.

The jewelry was really predominantly the stuff I was selling. Was probably 60% of it was the jewelry that I was making, and I was hand carving industrial resins and, dazzling things and brass and holding things together with everything was really mechanically connected. So there were there were screws or, gimp tacks, which are these, little vintage, round headed tacks that I was finding, and, I would also make a pilgrimage to, Rhode Island every year to a place, called Wolfie

Miro. That's actually still around, and it's, they buy up wholesale, jewelry, from companies that go out of business. And a massive. It's an old soap factory from the 1890s, and, it's just cavernous. And there's one room. There's all just chains, and they're, plated chains, and it's another room. It's just, weird finding is.

And so I would go there and find objects that would make their way into the jewelry, and, and, and created this, this continued this line. They did that for about ten years. Oh, wow. The wholesale shows, and, and then, then kind of bottom fell out after 911. Yeah. A lot of bottoms fell out after a while.

And a lot of people, a lot of small galleries just disappeared. They had big orders and they suddenly cancel them. And, even department stores were coming back, on, on the amount of work they were buying. So I shifted and and started applying to the most high end, contemporary craft shows I could find, street shows, indoor shows, things like the Philadelphia museum show or the Smithsonian craft show.

It was also, in shows like, the Denver, the Cherry Creek's Fine Arts Festival or Scottsdale Fine Arts Festival, or, Beverly Hills. That's crazy life on the road, though it is really a lot of work. It's a lot of work away from your studio kept me away from my family, my studio. I had, several employees at that point, too, and, it was a lot of what was driving the whole thing was my need to pay my employees.

And, keep this whole thing going and expanding, and, and so I would, but but really, there's nothing more exhilarating as an artist, as a working artist, than to make an object think it's the best thing in the world. Literally, the welds are still hot. It's just freshly sprayed with lacquer. You place it in the vehicle, you unload, you set up, and it's the first thing that sells, because it's clearly identified by the public is the best thing in the world.

And so, and then the, the immediate gratification of getting cash in your pocket. Yeah. Which is it's a rush. It's absolute. So I really I as much as it was set up, break down fight, fight, fight. I enjoyed the rush of it. The the good juju you got out of it, and you go back home just jazz to make more stuff.

Yeah. Now, the other side of it is the weather. When I was doing outdoor shows, the weather was always a problem. Whether it was in Chicago, Milwaukee or Denver or even, you know, even Florida. There was always some weather component. Yeah, that would be ominously hovering out there. You had an eye on the sky, one, with one eye and then the sky and the other one on your booth.

Yeah. And, I had been through several calamitous storms where, people's tents were flying away and the merchandise was strewn everywhere.

ankle deep or shin deep in water, and my stuff is falling over and floating away. Oh, my box literally cash box floating down the center of the street.

And I still have a little PTSD about that. Yeah, well, I would too. Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, it all comes rushing back suddenly and, and so after, about ten years of that, I, I started, scaling that back and trying to focus more on galleries and, and, private shows and, and commissions and, and the benefit of doing all those, those 20 years of wholesale and then retail was that I was getting a a large amount of designers had found me, architects.

And so I was doing custom work for those, those people, which was great. And I was doing lighting, I was doing, wall installations. I was doing one of a kind things. It really kind of challenged me as a maker and, really fun. It is fun. It is fun. And it's and I think if you if you continue to make the same thing for me personally, if you continue to make the same widget over and over again, you're going to burn out.

And yeah, it's it's no longer fun and it's, it's it makes it far more of a job. Yeah. So I was constantly reinventing myself whether I was introducing new materials or applying applying the line between the found in the fabricated. I like for somebody to look in an object and, you know, first not really know what they're looking at.

They're just the, the, the esthetic of it. It's amazing. And, the, the silhouette, as I say, and then as they get closer, they see the craft that's involved in it. And then, the tertiary effect is the that they notice when it's made out of. Yeah. And when it's made out of recycled material, then it becomes, a bonus and it becomes an

Oh my gosh moment. Yeah. Whereas if you flip it all around and I say here's an object I made out of recycled coffee stirrers, your first thought is so those are coffee stirrers that people liked and throw in a trash. And then you made something in your hand. This to me, and so but you flip it around and it becomes, it becomes value added.

Whereas a trash is a very difficult thing to work with as a, as a, as a consistent medium because of the, the connotations. And that's given back to the trash is failure of imagination. That's why I would try to reinforce that concept, but still getting over the hurdle as a selling artist. That what you're looking at is a beautiful object, well made and it's made out of trash, is the order of things.

At least that was as my career. Yeah. So beautiful object first. Yes, beautiful object first. And and then the craft of how it's made. And I think it's, and that's one of the huge benefits of having that kind of contemporary craft background. And also being a designer that, that the esthetics really matter and the, the way it's put together really matters.

Yeah. I try to stay away from adhesives, because adhesives fail. I don't I use hot glue sparingly if I, if I do it all. And so, this idea of mechanical connections makes something more, robust. And, also, you see the connection, you see how it's been put together. So what is your favorite technique for attaching things together?

I I've, I've done workshops on that. I call this to that and and, and so in those you, you take a piece of rubber and, and a vinyl record and you want to put them together. How do you do that? Yeah. One of the best ways to do that would be with, using, using a pop rivet and, so pop rivet is a, it's a tubular rivet, and, it works by it's got a mandrel that that goes through the tube and has little bead on the end of it.

And as you squeeze the handle, it draws. That man broke through with the bead and it expands this tube so that it creates pressure on both sides of the object that you're trying to bind together. And, so using, using some washers also to displace some of that force, I'm able to, put together tin can lids, punch them, punch holes and put, put the rivet through it and put a washer on the backside and crank it together and, it shows.

The finish is quite nice because it's just this little round object that is the fastener. And, so I like pop-riveting. I love welding. I have a, a quick welder I bought with a spot welder with the intent of being able to weld tin can lids together, and, and then when I bought a MiG welder, it was it was the best hot glue gun ever, because it you can stick two pieces of metal together really efficiently.

So, and then, and then, you know, just, interesting fasteners, like, I often would go into old hardware stores and ask to see their back stock. And they always had a room, or a shelf that was like the hardware that didn't sell. Oh, and oftentimes on those shelves you would find, old screws and, and before they did galvanizing, they did gluing and gluing.

Is this, it's a way to preserve, a steel with a coating that, that will make it not rust for a long time. And, so I'd look for number two blued steel, slotted spoons. And those screws then would find their way to the jewelry that I was putting together or, which would, hold down something, on the surface of, of a piece of wood.

So, yeah, I, I think those are some of my favorite. So. Okay, cool. None of them have I ever had any experience with. So that's, I love hearing that. It's. Yeah. Yeah, there's so many out there, and there's so many interesting ways that people sound, of the idea of connecting to disparate materials together 100 years ago.

Yeah. It still exists. So. Yeah. Yeah. No. That's fascinating. You know, my main way of keeping things attached to each other is by sewing. So, but then I'm using mostly softer materials that I can push the needle through. So it's always it's fascinating to me.

This episode is brought to you by the Repurposed Collective. Our doors are currently open. So if you are inspired by this podcast and you are offended by the trash littering the roads or the woods or the ocean,

and you create art from materials that others might consider trash the Repurposer Collective is the place for you.

The doors are open. We would love you to join us.

And now back to the podcast.

I was in a show just recently or a couple years ago now actually. That is called Diverted Destruction.

And each year there's a theme. So this, gallery, Liz, Liz's Loft in, in LA, and she has a show in its 20th year now. Oh, and each year there's a different medium, suggested. So there was a plastic edition, and, for that, I was, I was using everything from, recycled, laundry bottles to, you know, chip containers and, and cutting them up and re reimagining them, but using the rivets, to hold them together.

And that's a really nice esthetic when you can kind of see the connection of how it's put together, rather than gluing it or welding it. Yeah. Yeah. So that kind of when you mentioned jugs that made me think I saw on your website that you make projects with kids too, and you did a project where the kids made masks out of milk jugs.

Yeah, I was brilliant. I was like, oh my gosh, why didn't I think of that? Right? I mean, if you turn it upside down, you get the handle on it. That looks like a nose. Yeah. And then you, you open up the, the, the spout. You kind of cut most of the way around it and tilt it down, and suddenly that becomes a mouth.

Yeah. And then make eye holes and then, then you really just have to figure out how to get a kid's head inside of by cutting out the backside of it. And you always, always, always have to wash your milk jugs. Yes. Hot water and soap and multiple times. Because really, there's nothing stinkier than putting your head inside of a milk jug.

Yeah, yeah. I've been working with kids for years since my kids were young. When? When they were in preschool, I showed up at preschool one day with the tool belt on and, and started literally teaching kids how to use power tools in a preschool. Awesome. Wow. And I was like, the Pied Piper every time I would come in, they would be like, what are we doing today?

This is great. So eventually the school, decided to give me a room and you gave me an here. And they said, whatever you want to do. But the theme this year is France. And so I started making Eiffel Towers with the kids out of, sticks. And, and then when we got finished with that, we started making, a prototype for a larger one and then, eventually built a 20ft tall Eiffel Tower out of cardboard in the middle of in the middle of the playground, with these kids.

And we set it up like a construction zone. They had to have the hat on when they came into the space. And, it was it was charming. It was just absolutely charming. But my kids have grown up in my shop, and, and I've grown up kind of teaching their friends how to make stuff. And then, in 19, like, run the the financial crisis, in 2008, 2009, I walked into a place, here in Los Angeles called the Rediscover Center.

And the Rediscover Center was a is a materials resource for artists and for educators. Oh, and, it started as. And so it was a warehouse. Imagine a back warehouse filled with bins of similar objects. So, things like, bottle cap lids and corks and buttons and weird fasteners and, weird things from the textile industry in Los Angeles.

And so educators would come in and shop it, and bring it to their class, and they would they did, some programing around sustainability. But I walked in and thought, well, this is, this is a, this looks like my studio for one, but also, it was it's a place where, I can kind of extend what I had been doing with my kids.

So I volunteered for a couple weekends making stuff with kids, and I would. I brought my suite of tools with me, and, eventually, I convinced them to start a summer camp. Oh, and, I'd seen a summer camp. There's a guy named Gaylord Tully who started a, tinkering camp in, the San Francisco area.

And his big idea was putting tools in the hands of kids and building epic stuff. So roller coasters made out of scrap wood for, giant for, you know, two, three level, structures that kids could climb on and had built themselves. And so taking the general idea of that, I constructed this, summer camp for kids in 2011, and, we had my kids in it, as well as about 20 kids.

And, now, we run three camps a year. I'm sorry. We run camps over every break. So spring break, summer break, a winter break, holidays. We're doing camps, but we serve over 600 kids per summer. Wow. That's actually 3 to 4 different locations. And so I joined the board, after I got back from, living in London for three years in 2015.

And, and I've been instrumental in creating, kind of a,

cash based, nonprofit. So, so meaning we're we're we're are we're not always profit driven, but but the idea that we were creating programing that we could charge for so that we could then give away more. Yeah. And so the summer camps exploded, and that became, a huge line item in our budget.

But we were able to employ a lot of artists to help them, help facilitate the process. And, and we also, expanded our footprint. So now we have two, two primary locations. Oh, wow. Mid-City and Los Angeles, and in near Koreatown and the other on the West side, in Venice and, through those, those two, we were expanding our footprint even more with everything from weekend.

Weekend things like birthday parties and, open crafting to during the week. We're in schools and after school, so. Wow, we have, 71 school contracts. Oh, my gosh, that's huge. A lot of them are with LAUSD, where we go into schools and we we either establish a makerspace or add on to their existing makerspace. Became we become the maker educator with an emphasis on sustainability.

That's amazing. So, we also are able to, we're also able to, to then fund a lot of the other things. So we give away 20% of, of all of our campus programing to underserved, kids in Los Angeles. That's amazing. Wow. This is this sounds huge. What's the name of this arts center again? It's it's Rediscover Center.org.

Wow. This is the, web address and, the guy who I started the the first summer camp with Jonathan Barger has become our executive director. And we now have a board and, I think about 12 people, always looking for more interested folks. And, we, I think our annual budget this year was 1.6 million.

Wow. That's amazing. That's built up from, 60,000, I think when I first started with. Wow. So, wow, what an inspiration. It's a great it's a great organization. And my role is, somebody on the board I was board president for, four years through the pandemic. And but, my, my role is also as kind of a, an instigator and a fire starter.

So I, I'm out there creating new ideas. Like, I started this thing called Cardboard City, where we took a 10,000 square foot empty space on the Third Street promenade. It used to be an Adidas store, and it had been sitting vacant for four years. We took that space and we're able to get, the owners of that space to give it to us for a dollar.

But we we got it back to code. We, turned it into part gallery of cardboard art. So half of it was this amazing presentation of, of, Los Angeles based, cardboard artists. And the other half was a makerspace where families could come and sit down and make stuff out of cardboard. And then in the back we had an artist residency where every week there was a different artist who was making stuff that, kids could, could join in on.

Oh, I became this giant build. And, we've done it. Three years in a row. We're, we we took a one year hiatus, and we're working on our two year hiatus now, and we're working on the, another location with a, Westfield mall to get a much more permanent location for it, but. Wow.

That's credible. Yeah, it's. And it's a great it's a great community building event. Yeah. And it also and exposes people in a very subtle way to the idea of using trash, and using something that everybody, you know, post-pandemic, you can go anywhere and find a piece of use cardboard. Yeah. Perfectly good. And we give you the tools and techniques to manipulate it.

And then the kids have the imagination. And so we have kids building cosplay outfits. They building, you know, small automata, mechanical things. They're planning all kinds of, crazy contraptions. Wow. Are, are are just a great reuse for the material. That's amazing. Wow. Well, I had no idea. That's really cool. I'm so glad you tell me about that.

Know, it's one of those those side projects of mine that, I do, and then I'll. You like a passion project? Not. It is very much so. Very much so. And, my, my wife is often has often been mad at me for the amount of time I spent, with the organization and giving, you know, giving them all this, time for free.

But the reality is, is that it's paying back and dividends. So. Yeah. Yeah, we've we've made, we're the largest kids makerspace in Los Angeles. We were just, acquired an organization called woodwork that's doing fantastic work, training woodworking to, at risk youth. And, and but they ran some, financial problems. And so we've kind of taken over, their, their workshop or their, their list, and we're, we're trying to integrate their programing into our programing.

And, and so there's, there's still a lot, a lot to do. And maker education is a, is a is is a key to so many successful childhoods and adulthood. Yeah. Where you become self-sufficient, you're able to do you look at something is not a problem, but as a, as an opportunity to fix something. Yeah. Where was a challenge a fun challenge.

Yeah. Yeah. So kind of on the three legs of sustainability, education and, and creativity, I mean, and so teaching creativity is it's a very, subtle thing, but, when you introduce recycled materials, and the tools to manipulated, the creativity comes much more easily. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, yeah. Well, so so while all of that which I can, I can see how that could take up so much of your time.

Yeah. What are you currently working on in your studio? So in my studio these days I have a couple projects. I for the last ten years, I've been, doing a, series of awards for company.

each year I do something different, than they have, and I do them in quantities.

So, last year, from repurposed materials, again, a lot of repurposed materials. Now, some of the repurposed materials are as subtle as, they've produced a journal since the late 1800s. And so I'll take vintage journals and using kind of a decoupage technique, apply that on the surface of, the base of the award or, or inside the award or some context.

And, and I'm not a purist. I mean, maybe frame that I'm not a cure. Everything doesn't have to be recycle. I, I learned long ago the, the, it would just drive myself crazy if, if I had to get that specific. And so I blur the line between the found in the fabricated.

Yeah. And so it's you look at the things that I've made, and and they have an esthetic value that looks like it was reused, remade, reimagined, but it actually is, fabricated from newer materials. And then on the other side of it, I have things that are very much found and, yeah, they they scream bound, but they have another story to tell.

The secret Life of objects, if you will. And, and so the, the pieces I've been making for them, sometimes it will be scrap wood that I pulled out of a dumpster that, the hardwood distributor, and I've risen and reimagined into a Mobius strip. And, or, in, in the context of, this, this work, like, I'm working on a piece right now.

I've got, I've got this idea that I'm going to be making a, mechanical. And we're still in the prototyping phase of this, but I'm going to be making a a mechanical, puppet, basically, that is a scientist. And here, here's his head. You can see the egg head, how it's like an egg is an egg headed scientist.

And I made the little glasses and and you can see his glasses are held on by by little number two wooden screws with slots. And we'll have in one hand we'll have a, test tube that'll be looking at. And then he'll flip over and look at, his journal where he's writing with his other hand, and he'll be looking back and forth and his arms will be alternating.

That's awesome. The prototype is made with scrap wood, baling wire for the eyeglasses, brass rod and, and then, like last year, I used instead of, making a box. I used these boxes that were from, honey collection boxes. And so, from the there's a, from the beekeeping industry. They have these little wooden boxes that are, that go into, these large trays that then go into the hive, and then the bees make their wax, their, their honeycombs inside.

I found that the, the source for these, boxes that were under, constructed or a flat piece of wood that's been, finger jointed and has precision, cuts in it to be able to, to fold it into a box. And so is, is it found because I found this manufacturer, who once a year they actually make these boxes on the East Coast and they're, they're, they're quickly diminishing resource.

Or you know, it's, it's fabricated because I put it together. Right. So I'm blurring the line. Yeah. So, this year, it could be this, this little scientist. It also could be, a large test tube with, a pile of little miniature books inside, covered with vintage, journals and a little figure sitting there reading a book in a same scientists, smock.

Right. Or it could be, what was the third idea? Oh, there was a, or a magic trick. And, I like magic, and I've been poking at trying to make magic tricks, and it would be, a box that you turn a handle, and the first thing is, is nothing. And then the next is a test tube, and then the next one is the journal, and then the next one is nothing.

And so, it would repeat, that's good. We'll see what it is. And I like making it. So I mean that would that but perfect entry into the, idea of making mechanical. Yeah. Yeah, you do a lot of those. I do a lot of those. And I've been, And I've and I've always done them, I've done them since the, the 90s, or even even a little bit before that.

And they were either implied mechanical or, or they, they were outright mechanical. Turn a hand or plug it in and press the button. And that gets, you know, goes back to my early days as a kid working with Legos and imagining giant machines and things and, and so I, I've been making these objects as a, as kind of a side venture, when I would be invited to do a show, for a gallery, I would explicitly make, work that was mechanical for God, knowing that there's a chance that it won't sell.

But, but kind of increasing my exposure in that as well as getting my chops up. Right. And it's something that you really enjoyed and something I really enjoy. Can I ask you about your prototypes? So I, I noticed that you also keep you do a lot of sketches first before you even got to a prototype, right?

Yeah, yeah. In fact, there's, I'll give you a quick peek into my sketchbook here. Oh, cool. I was going to ask, do you keep. Yeah. Studio sketchbook. And like I do. Yeah. Like, this is, a typical page, for the prototyping of this. Yeah. Lots of really simple black and white sketch. Simple black and white sketches, dimensional sketches.

I like to kind of think as I'm drawing. Yeah. Notes and sketches. Notes and sketches. And, and then then I sometimes I get into the kind of the technical side of, of note keeping where I've got the, I've got some measurements and I've got some schematics going, and hey, my name is on there and your name is on there because I have a podcast, on December 20th, and I.

Yeah. That's funny. So do you keep a sketchbook for every project that you're working on, or is there, like, a more general sketchbook that just keeps goes the general sketchbooks? I've, I've had, I have now a history of sketchbooks that go back, 35 years, and, and they are the place where I'll, I'll write a quick note.

Grocery list, you know, everything, everything becomes, it's kind of my my wife actually does a similar thing. She's she's in finance, but she has what she calls the one book. One book is this. And she's got a history of them also from 30 some odd years. And, and so the, the idea being that it's a place where I can jot a quick note invention comes to mind.

The thing comes to mind, I I'll place it there. And sometimes I don't go back to see what it was, but I find I repeat it, and and it's in the process of, notating, documenting it is, is a way to kind of reinforce an idea in the mind that then, that then it comes up, it's like bubbles up from.

Yeah, from wherever. And and then eventually you kind of get around to making it. Right. Do you ever go back, like, a decade into your sketchbooks? I do, like, I have this, this show coming up. That is a is about all the mechanical work. It's called Sense of Wonder. And I went back in, sketchbooks, to look at these drawing machines and the date that I kind of conceived of the idea that, oh, here's here's how I thought I would go about it, and then the variations on it.

And I was prototyping them and making these, machines that when you turn a handle, they draw a portrait of me over and over. Oh, it's a selfie. It's called the selfie machine. That's funny. And so I, I did recently go back to look at some of those because we're going to blow those, pages up and have them as kind of graphics on the wall for this exhibition.

Oh that's great. So, yeah, you start with a bunch of sketches and then you decide whether that one sketch is now going to be a prototype. Well, for this particular, clients, that's kind of, that's required. They, they, they want to see a range of. I don't even do a Pinterest board too, so. Oh, wow. I would do that when I was teaching high school to we would, I would have the kids create a Pinterest board of kind of an ideas board, and then, I would have them start to sketch those things, translate that to a sketch, or to start working, in this particular context with this client, I also produce

a video each year that is the making of oh, wow. So it always, it always I start the videos out with it starts with a sketch. So you see me actually sketching close up and then, and then the process of prototyping. Oh, so you really record your process from the very start? Wow. I try to document it now, that's that particular context in other contexts when I'm, creating a piece of art from a found object, say, I was at a flea market and I found a thing.

First off, and when I find a thing and I want to purchase it, it's got to have, it's got, I have to have an idea. Ish. Okay. I'm going to deal with it. But then once it's in the studio, I'll start manipulating the object or working with, the raw material. And, and it, it sometimes tells me where it wants to go.

And, and so if it's a pliable material that's bendy and it's wearable, it maybe wants to be woven or held in tension in some way. If it's a, if it's a if it's a great object and I have 100 of them, then it's about it's about quantity. It's about it's about, presentation of of a lot of things.

And so it, my favorite way to work is, is in that kind of, curiosity driven investigation of, of the object. And that doesn't require sketching. Okay. Okay. So, oftentimes I will sketch something after the fact, probably to confuse the art historian who's going to look at my sketchbooks or, you know, like, wow, he had that fully formed.

It's like, no, I made the thing. And then I sketch that. But, but, but that's the fun part of of of ideating and and there's no, there's the only constraints are the materials, limitations. Yeah. And so, there's and and it's, and I teach this to kids all the time that that creative process that creates that, that initial ideation stage.

It's a very fragile stage. It's like a bubble. It's so it's it's it's perfectly formed, maybe, but it's very fragile. And so the littlest thing, you pop it and and the idea is gone. And so when I'm working with kids and we're doing, we're looking at prototypes that everybody has made, I really want them to have the gentle gloves on and, and, and use words that are reinforcing rather than, that's never going to work.

Yeah. I was told that too many times, by other people as a, as a, as a kid. And, it's really kind of a pet peeve of mine when, when I see creativity quashed in a young person's, mind. And I want them, I want them to think that everything is possible. And for as long as possible, till it becomes a little more, hardened and resistant to, to criticism, so.

Okay. Yeah, but so, but so I think that I think that's, that's that's amazing. But even though you have many successful iterations of your work, I bet you you have some failures as well. Things that did not work out. Absolutely. In my studio. Still with them. But, that was my next question. Do you take something? It's oh, I do, I do and I have like every year the, the, of this trophy project.

I have bins of all the failures, and, and the almosts and, and I think it's really important to surround yourself with those because, they're, they're, they're departure points and you've kind of already gotten it that far. And so now where's it going to go next? But I think failure is such a huge component in the making process.

Yeah. And, and I, I think there's, a certain especially with kids today, there's a certain seeking of perfectness that is, that is regrettable because you set a kid up for failure when, if if it's not perfect, then they abandon it. Yeah. And and so working through that lack of perfection and that roughness in that, the, the it's not quite working is it's really important as a young maker and when I work, I also, teach robotics.

I'm on a robotics team, a high school robotics team, and I'm a, I'm a mentor, a paid mentor for the team. And one of the things I'd like to work with the kids about is like this. This process of creating is and not having the perfect thing. And so what is what rhymes with what you want? And, and looking for that thing that that it is it fits the some of the criteria but not all of it.

But how can I adapt that thing that's not perfect to what I need, right? Eventually a lot of ideas come out of that process. And so guiding kids through, not just ordering it on Amazon or not going right to CAD, because we're, we're big on, on, computer aided design. But in computer aided design, there's not a lot of space for folly and for, for running down a rabbit hole until you print it out and then see.

Oh, it doesn't work. Yeah, I've got to modify that. Whereas if you're working with real materials and, real tools, you, you're able to very quickly determine where's the friction. Yeah. And and you can use that as a life metaphor to find the friction and relieve the friction. Then you're going to open yourself up to a much more, yeah.

Hope instead of God. I think there's a certain satisfaction that comes with working with physical materials that you don't get from doing computer aided design. It's not your thing against computers. I love Photoshop and all of that, but to make something with your hands and actually to see it physically come about is a whole different experience. Yeah, and it's amazing how much, when you're working with your hands, the there's a back and forth play in the brain where, those moments where the hands take over and you just don't realize your hand's been working for the last half an hour.

Yeah. Or or vice versa. So you get this, this back and forth of that time to, your hands are busy, and then the new ideas come. It's kind of like when you're in the shower and suddenly, you know, the big idea comes to you, or you're just drifting off to sleep, and that big idea comes to you.

Yeah, it gives you that that moment where you're in the process of making, and then you can very quickly shift to, okay, I need to do this now, and I need to change that. And, and how can I find the friction. Yeah. And solve it. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Agreed. Yeah. Well I think that's a perfect place to stop.

That was just. Yeah, that's exactly what I would want to inspire people with, to inspire them to actually make with their hands. Absolutely, absolutely. We are we are born makers. And, you know, the more digital it comes in, hopefully. And the more I comes in, hopefully we will, will continue that process because someone's got to fix the robots.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Wow. Thank you so much, Aaron. This has been thank you. Insightful conversation. Sorry. Yes. And I know we could keep talking for hours. I think we could. I do think we could. So we'll do we may have to come back to this. We'll do part two later on. Yeah. Exactly. Okay. Great. All right. So much.

Thank you.

Wow, what an inspiring conversation. Thank you so much, Aaron for talking with me and. Oh my God, inspiring me. I, I want to go to that place and in with the kids and play with cardboard. That sounds amazing. I can't wait to dive down that rabbit hole.

I hope you enjoyed our conversation as well.

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This podcast was created, produced and edited by me, Natalya Khorover. Theme music by RC Guide. To find out more about me, go to Art by Natalya.com, to find out about my community, go to Repurposer Collective.com and to learn with me, check out all my offerings at Eco Loop.Art. Thank you for listening.