Southern University: Hip-Hop & Politics
This podcast was born from Dr. Eugene Lee-Johnson's Hip-Hop & Black Politics class at Southern University. Throughout the semester, the students learn how White supremacy impacts each part of their lives and how fate and group consciousness work to influence Black political participation. In tandem, the students will speak about specific topics (the media, gendered racism, the history of American racism, etc.) from class and how they influence their lives. We hope you enjoy!
Southern University: Hip-Hop & Politics
Justice Unlimited (Kevin Deloch, Malachi Dixson, and Randall Ike)
Beneath the surface of America's mass incarceration crisis lies a darker truth – a direct line connecting today's prison system to our nation's history of slavery. This episode of Justice Unlimited peels back layers of history to reveal how systems of racial control evolved rather than disappeared after the Civil War.
When slavery was technically abolished, southern states quickly pivoted to new methods of exploiting Black labor. The 13th Amendment's critical loophole – permitting involuntary servitude "as punishment for a crime" – became the foundation for criminalization of Black life through Black Codes and vagrancy laws. These resulted in convict leasing programs where conditions were often worse than slavery itself, as companies had no financial stake in preserving prisoners' lives.
Our conversation reveals how modern prisons like Angola State maintain disturbing parallels to plantation models, with predominantly Black inmates performing agricultural labor under the watch of white guards on horseback. We explore how the War on Drugs dramatically expanded incarceration, targeting Black communities and quadrupling prison populations from 500,000 to over 2 million people.
Beyond historical connections, we confront the human cost of a system focused on punishment rather than rehabilitation. When incarcerated people return to society without education, mental health support, or job training, high recidivism rates aren't just expected – they're practically guaranteed. Once labeled a felon, individuals lose access to housing, employment, and voting rights, creating a permanent underclass reminiscent of Jim Crow restrictions.
We challenge listeners to recognize how contemporary policies – from stop-and-frisk to discriminatory grooming standards – continue patterns of control and dehumanization. True justice requires confronting these deeply embedded legacies and building systems that rehabilitate rather than merely punish. Join us as we examine this crucial intersection of law, history, and social justice – and consider what it will take to break these chains of the past.
Welcome to Justice Unlimited, the podcast that dives deep into the intersections of law, history and social justice. I'm your host, randall.
Kevin:I'm Kevin.
Randall:Malachi, and we're all passionate about unraveling the deep, hidden, legal, systematic and historical forces shaping our society. Today we're tackling a question that often lingers in discussions about race justice and systematic oppression Is mass incarceration linked to geological slavery? When we talk about mass incarceration us, we often treat it like it's a modern day issue, but in reality, it's deeply rooted in america's past, specifically in the legacy of slavery, and to get into it, let's talk about slavery yeah, um.
Malachi:Well, firstly, as we already know that, you know, after the civil war ended and slavery was abolished, uh, southern states didn't just let go of a system that uh built, had built their economy. Instead, you know, they looked at other legal ways to continue exploiting black labor, forced labor, which is the story of, you know, racialized incarceration begins.
Randall:What is your thoughts on that? I mean, my thoughts is like this isn't a surprise. We love to our people, love to have the image of being dehumanized. We're always seen as less, more so as property. We hold value. Our kids hold value. That's all we are to them. We're just value. We're just cheap labor. You know it's, it's generations of trauma and issue. It's just, I don't know, man, that's something to really get deep into. But you know we got time today. Let's, let's, let's, keep talking about it. What you gotta say about it, kevin?
Kevin:I'll say, uh, I think it is an issue. Uh, I think the way that prisons are now, everybody focuses on punishment rather than the rehabilitation of these people. Sometimes these people or these citizens, they're not really. Sometimes they can be wrong and they know they're wrong.
Randall:They're citizens. Yeah.
Kevin:So, and you know sometimes they can be wrong and then sometimes you know they need help. So I feel like if we just stop focusing so much on punishment and just you know sometimes they can be wrong and then sometimes you know they need help. So I feel like if we just stop focusing so much on punishment and just you know helping, I feel like it would make a big difference and you wouldn't have the recidivism rate wouldn't be so high, because recidivism is rate is kind of high in the United States.
Randall:Right, right, right. Again, this is literal decades and decades that slavery was going on, just for it to be ended by the 13th Amendment, which in reality, really didn't mean anything. It didn't mean squash. The 13th Amendment was just legalizing it, making a giant loophole in which now these slave masters are now politicians and now they they pushing for reforms into slavery. And now they're trying to create a loophole which, okay, you know what slavery may have ended, but we can still put these black people to work, you can put them in prisons. You know we can take their education even further. And again, now we can legalize being able to take their education.
Kevin:You know they're, you know, like the black codes, jim crow and you know, like you know, some of the black codes you know you had vagrancy laws, for a prime example.
Randall:You know the the black codes, jim crow, and you know, like you know, some of the black codes.
Kevin:You know you had vagrancy laws for a prime example.
Randall:You know the laws that made it illegal for black people to be unemployed, leading to arrests. You know, forced labor for those that couldn't find work, like all they could see in us is just value like that's. All we were to them was just value. You like, we needed to work, we needed to contribute. I'm saying we already did enough though, just from being here, just from building the country. A lot of people don't acknowledge that.
Malachi:Yeah, and just to piggyback on that, we're looking at different periods.
Malachi:We had slavery, which was for the last 400 years, right, that soon became what we now know as convict leasing systems, which primarily states, profited by leasing prisoners to private companies and plantations Conditions were often worse than during slavery. There was no incentive to persevere a prisoner's lives, there was no money. They were forced into this by criminalized everyday behaviors. You know from black African-Americans. So I think that you know it's a crucial aspect that we, you know, reflect on this and you know look at this historical systems that you know that they've controlled over African-Americans. You know just in general.
Randall:you know that they've controlled over African-Americans, you know, just in general, right, and I just, you know, on top of everything else, like I said, they made it to where getting education, you know, heck, even just to be able to vote. There were so many restrictions in place, like and like we obviously want to like for, I guess, for black people, especially in the 60s, for a prime example we really wanted to make sure we could build a successful life so that our children don't have to suffer as we did. My parents were like that. I feel like I speak for a lot of parents that were. Just, I want to make sure my child doesn't have it as hard.
Randall:I want to make sure that they're, like, equal to the enemy, the enemy being white people because, in reality, like they don't really have to do much for them to be successful. We have to do everything, we have to be educated, we have to be well-groomed, we have to, you know, present ourselves a certain way. It's like there's so many restrictions. Well, what if you got to do the bare minimum and they already got a high paying job?
Kevin:it's almost like we have to reduce our blackness for us to be successful, like even and this probably is off topic but like having to have our hair cut a certain way or having to like, prime example, you have to cover your tattoos, cover your Cut your dreads. Like it's just, they want us to hide our blackness so we can kind of culminate in their, I guess, kind of characteristic of how they usually present themselves, them being white folks but at the same time, it's like we're not the same as y'all. We have different upbringings, we have different traumas and in some ways, people use tattoos and hair kind of like to express how they're feeling.
Malachi:So for you to want to cut it's history on the skin.
Kevin:Yeah. So for you to want to, or making us, cut our hair and hide our dress is like hiding our blackness. So I can really touch heavily on that and, to be honest on a personal fact, I used to have dress myself and I actually had to cut my dress because at one point I was at an intern and the guy thought I was on trial. He didn't even know I was working. I literally had to show him my badge and let him know, like I'm not on trial, I work here, I'm an intern. So it is definitely true, 100% Dang. And how did that make you?
Randall:feel about that.
Kevin:It made me feel I was hurt because it's like man, like it's low key, racist, like you know, you think, because I'm black, I'm in a suit and I have dreads, like you're thinking, I'm the enemy when. I'm not, I just work here, and it still just kind of hurts to this day because it's just like sad like, like like discriminating is just is real or discriminatory. It's just very real. And it was a surreal moment for me and I still got.
Malachi:I get over to this day and you, just you look back at yourself and I look at a mirror and I'll be like damn, like did I?
Kevin:actually cut my dress to a piece to somebody else, or did I cut them to be successful so I don't have to worry about it? So just kind of was heard about it and it.
Randall:What's so crazy like that you mentioned as like we've had this for, again, literal decades. Yet it was only what. Two or three years ago, where the Crown Act was passed and we finally got some recognition to where, like you know, we were proud of our hair. We shouldn't have to cut it down. Like I don't force these other people to cut their hair down, you know some of us is. It's about religion. You know it's a religious aspect to it. We're still, like, forced to do it and again, it was only passed like two years ago, what was it?
Randall:uh, september 1st 2023, where actually took effect? I'm like that, no, that's, that's too long that's too long we should have been had this and the reality, like it didn't take until dozens and dozens of dozens of kids like being discriminated in school and being forced to cut their hair down, or even in the, the workplace environment you have to be able to cut your hair down like no these same grooming standards for white people shouldn't have to, shouldn't be effective on black people either.
Randall:Like these grooming standards were ridiculous and it was the same thing back then, like you had to have your hair cut a certain length to present yourself a certain way Like dreads, dreads in general.
Randall:I mean, the culture for dreads changed a lot over the years, but back then dreads were just. You were just unkept, you were homeless. You know, you were just disgusting to be around. People didn't want to look at you Like. Obviously, culture changes throughout the years, but the way they saw us is back then. Anytime we had hair length past our ears, man, it was something else. But, um, so let's get back. Let's get back to the topic of hand. We were a bit off topic, so let's go back to just policing in the late 1800s and after the 13 amendment.
Kevin:Yeah, you got anything, I anything to say about that. I'll tell you, policing you said the 1800s, the 1800s, so policing really wasn't really kind of established back then. However, you could kind of see where the root of it kind of like, I guess, kind of originated Like slave control yeah.
Kevin:It really wasn't like a formatic kind, wasn't afforded probably a formatic system, probably until later down the line. But um, you can kind of see what some of the structure of policing is and kind of they still follow the same structure to this day, which is just crazy, like with the whole first thing, when I think of policing, of stopping, stopping frisking, I see how and I see how goes, and it's just more so, like you look at the stopping frisking, it is a good, it is good, it does help. But it's like to what extent of humanizing is it right? To an extent.
Randall:Oh, it don't humanize at all. It's just again like if you're perceived as a threat, you will be tricked as if you were a threat. If you are a threat, there's no bottom line like that. That's literally it. And again, you can literally just be chilling. You could I mean, I hate to say the word loitering, but you can literally just like chilling in public and someone will come up to you thinking that you commit a crime and they will hit you with that old oh, you fit the description of someone in the area and now they got to pat you down and if you're try and resist, guess what? You being booked for resisting arrest. And it's not even about you, right? And it's just like things like that, like like slave patrols versus police.
Kevin:Now, they have one thing in common this is a giant game.
Randall:The boys have been against us from the very beginning.
Malachi:Yeah, and just kind of piggyback on that, I think, historically as well, you know, mass incarceration has has, you know, it's like the modern manifestation of historical racial control. So you know, we have police officers, you know, who have not saying all, but many police officers who enjoy, or who continue to have, like, this history of highly incarcerating african-americans, arresting them, you know, sometimes without, like, you know, reading them their rights, or just, you know, picking on them, thinking that they don't know their rights. You know, has became such a larger and broader issue. You know, at hand, you know, like I used to think that, uh, incarceration became the new label for black inferiority.
Malachi:You know and you know what you mean by that so you know, like you guys mentioned, when you guys were just, you know, being discriminated against with your hair and like the way you look and stuff. You know, a lot of times, I think officers um, typically think of black people, you know, because there's so much around them and you know they're a lot of them in prisons and stuff like that, they tend to, um, you know, have these implicit biases, I guess you know, with the hair, with the way you look and stuff like that.
Malachi:So you know, if mass incarceration, you know, has a lot of um, you know, african americans in it, you know, I still think that those officers who experience that day to day, you know, look at others, like, okay, you're going to be in that situation, you know. Look at others like, okay, you're going to be in that situation, you know, in five, 10 years.
Kevin:Like you, better, you know watch out, et cetera, et cetera.
Malachi:Um, but I guess just to throw a question out there, um, how does, like understanding the historical connection change the way we talk about crime and punishment today?
Kevin:I think it means. I think the that means a lot. Um, yeah it is a good question because if we look, Because if we look at the way crime and punishment today, like I focused on earlier, you look at a lot of things. Not everybody's focused on punishment. It's like punishment is like I don't know why it's just such a big thing. Like I said, it comes from the term an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.
Malachi:That's where it all originated from, but it's like at the point where do we get to?
Kevin:a point to where an eye, a tooth for a tooth. That's where it all originated from. But it's like, right at the point where do we get to a point to where an eye for an eye, the tooth for a tooth is that we can't live by that no more. You got people committing these crimes who they don't even necessarily have issues, or they're not. You, I mean. You may have people that are just downright evil, and to that extent I don't even agree with people being downright evil, like a lot of these serial killers you hear about jeffrey dahmer, you hear about ted bundy, a lot of these people that you hear about. They make them out to be a criminal, but it's like, yeah, what they did was wrong. But it's like, are we looking into the behavior or have we looked into how they were raised as a?
Malachi:kid. A lot of people don't know jeffrey dahmer dad indulged him in playing with dead animals. I did not know that yeah, he his dad would bring him dead animals home for him to dissect.
Kevin:So if you're doing that to a young kid, what do you think is going to happen when he does it? He gets older. Oh, let me do this to humans. So we it's like we kind of like growing.
Kevin:It's not not say growing, but it's like we're just focused on punishment and we're not focusing on the actual rehabilitation. And then we wonder why they get out, they repeat the same crime and they go back and it's like nothing's being done because, at the end of the day, these places or these jails are getting money off of we're making their money. So it's just, it's ridiculous, like I, I it kind of just upsets me because it's just always punishment, punishment, punishment, punishment and I, hey, let's actually help this person out, let's get them to help, let's get them therapy, let's get them the medication that they need so we can make them productive. Like they have jails out of they got jails out of this country who go to jail and they'll be rehabilitated. They're they got classes that they can take to help them govern themselves back in society. So it's just disappointing to you know, seeing our system compared to other people's system, it's very disappointing.
Randall:You know it's funny you mention that when you talk about like the recidivism rate. It made me think about like this one scene in Shawshank Redemption where I don't remember the dude's name, but it was a librarian and his time was coming up to get released. This man was very old and he got released. He looked at life on the outside and he wondered like so much has changed over the years. He doesn't know anything. All he knew was prison and, by the way, this is a white guy, by the way and all he could recognize was like how much the world has changed.
Randall:And he got his store. I mean, he got this job at this grocery store and I always had to ask people for permission to do this, and that he had to ask someone to use the bathroom and I was just like that's crazy. And he had this entire gig laid out for him to where he could, I guess, live life and slowly reenter society. But he always felt like he had to look over his shoulders and answer to somebody and at some point he realized that, you know, this wasn't what he was used to and rather than just commit a crime and get right back into that lifestyle, he took his own life because he didn't want to hurt nobody again.
Randall:He like he realized, yeah, he learned his lesson, but so much has changed like prison life was his life and it was just something that made me think about it, because you can apply that directly to black people like they've been in there for so long. It could be something simply off a false conviction, and they'll be in there for so long that prison life is the only life they recognize. The prison hierarchy is the only hierarchy they recognize. They don't recognize what's on the outside, they only acknowledge what's on the inside and they don't do well very long whether they get back into it by committing a crime or they take their own life, or it's ridiculous, it's honestly ridiculous and I'm like again. I thought of that movie was the first thing, like, because that's exactly what we're going through now and um, it's just that.
Kevin:It's so. Yeah, it's just overall saying, like I said, he's probably doing that because these prisons are not teaching and preparing these citizens to get back into the real world. You're not you're not, you're just taking somebody who's been in jail for maybe 10 to 15 years and being like, hey you're, finna, get out soon, yeah you're not warning about what's going on in the real world.
Kevin:You don't teach them about the political climate that's going on right now. You don't teach them about, uh, the new laws that's been passed. All they know is how to live and how to survive in a jailhouse, and if that's all all they know, they're going to come back. I guarantee you they're going to come back or end up back in jail. So it's just, you know, like you said, it's sad to see, it's very sad to see.
Malachi:Yeah, and again, like, what I'm concluding from this is we need to, like the government and overall system needs to focus more on increasing reform, you know, within these young offenders or even older offenders who've been incarcerated for so long, than just primarily putting them in a space where they're forced, with, you know, chains on their arms and on their ankles to hard labor and then also like a racial hierarchy that you were kind of like touching up on. So those are like just really big things that you know I think personally can make a difference. But again, like, is it being utilized? Is these reforms will actually be utilized and kept up consistently? When it comes to um offenders who want to re-enter into society, and you know, like that example that you just gave about um, you know him ending up losing his life because you know he just couldn't he just couldn't handle so much things that was so different compared to when he was in prison. Those things should have happened Right.
Randall:And have you ever been to Angola, Angola State I have.
Malachi:I've seen the documentary many times, but have you actually been there?
Randall:No, it's something different when you actually go to, uh, it's what 18 or 42 000 acres of just straight land land. It's very I don't want to say it's impossible to go because they have had jail breaks, but I mean the conditions there back then. It was so rough. I mean, things have changed a lot now, but the general identity is still the same. If you go there now, like right now, odds are you'll see maybe about 10, 12 groups of people just working in the fields and you got the old identity of the white man on a horse with the gun in hand just watching over them like they're not there, broad day, like straight heat, got shirts tied to their chest like I'm just saying like a plantation model, yeah, yeah lily plantation model, and I don't know about the historical background of angola, but I mean it strikes me as a plantation.
Randall:I'm not sure, but it definitely gives plantation and, like I said, that whole identity of just a white man on a horse again, because I never, I've never seen a black man on a horse again, because I never, I've never seen a black man on those horses and I've been in Angola about five times in my life, from a kid and up until last time I went was two years ago never once have I seen a black man on those horses. Now, the staff in the prisons a lot of them be black men. There's a lot of them are women.
Randall:That's a different subject, but um, yeah like all the all, all the men on them, horses, they're all white. And again it's a straight, straight, straight pipeline to where I think that, like some people, I feel like some people get a power kick out of this. Like I feel like some people literally enroll those jobs just to get a power kick, literally enroll those jobs just to get a power kick, because it doesn't help that already they don't know about what we've been through as our people and they just feel like, hey, you know what? Let me contribute to the justice system by doing this, without realizing that you know you're contributing to this, you're actively contributing to this and look and another thing about that, just out of frustration, just out of a personal experience that heard from a friend of theirs last week just off, something they heard of.
Randall:You know, I'm saying like, and the problem with that is they don't really, it doesn't really give the people outside the building insight as to, like, what's really going on. It gives them this false image that, oh, we really have a problem, when in, in reality, we don't. And it's always about minorities and you know, speaking of which, like that, brings me into the whole Jeff Landry issue. Like, as soon as he got into office last year, he brought up those three really controversial bills, the critical race theory for one. You know he signed that bill like executive order banning critical race theory in public schools. Like, obviously, critical race theory is a big part of our history, it's a big part of our ancestry. Without it, a lot of people are going to be oblivious to the situation which we be experiencing.
Randall:Another thing that he was, uh, messing with our stuff that involved minors, like juveniles, in which, like you know, crimes with teens 14 to 16 can be tried as adults. Like we need to protect our kids. Like that's a big part of like growing up, that's a big part of figuring out identity. Like you shouldn't get punished for one mistake. You know what I'm saying. Like it's okay for it to be an accident, it's different for it to be on purpose. But I don't think that he should be messing with that in general. You, but I don't think that he should be messing with that in general. You know, everyone is liable to make mistakes. It's part of growing up, as long as it ain't too serious and you know.
Randall:Another thing that he had passed was that police proximity law. Obviously, we get into with the police every day. Now, police proximity law was just an excuse as to just make police do their jobs more effort, you know, with less effort. It was just a, it was just an issue that now we can't be near them, you know, and in some cases, if we too close, just recording them, you know, all of a sudden now they get pressed, they get charged and it's just ridiculous, like I don't know, like jeff landry still got a whole nother three years. But what are you doing so far?
Kevin:it's just, it's just not it yeah, I personally agree with you on that. I feel like another issue Jeff Landry does, or he has, is that he's not out there listening to the community of what's going on.
Kevin:He's out here just solely based off what he sees in his interpretation. It's not like he's on, he's actually community, I wouldn't even say community policing. He's just being engaged with his community and seeing what's going on. You look at Jeff Landry and a lot of times I hear him. He had a whole fit about the LSU Tigers. I'm like why are you worried about having a Tiger Stadium?
Kevin:Oh yeah, A Tiger Stadium and not worried about what's going on in your community. Matter of fact, I seen a couple of days ago he put a ban, I think, on I think EBT cards.
Kevin:They can't buy uh soda cans, sodas or something, yeah, the whole thing yeah, and it's just like you're a healthy yeah, and it's like you're being. I honestly feel like he's being petty because a couple what it was a couple months ago we voted no on his ruling. So it's kind of like we're just oh, yeah, yeah, and it's just like he's just trying to get a get back, in a way like hey, I'm just trying to make it life harder for you and that's's not what a governor you know, that's not what a governor do. It's like you're just being petty.
Randall:Right, right, right, and it's just like the whole thing with that is like again, like he doesn't really give insight to the situation. You're doing all this stuff for LSU this, that and the third and all you do is take pictures with Southern, like Southern today was what this week. On Tuesday he got that nice, big cheesy smile with all them Southern ambassadors and stuff and it was like that's all you're going to do for him. Man, I don't understand all this weird support man and it's like the whole issue with him, like he needs to get out of here.
Malachi:I agree, you know this is they like this is very dangerous in a way, especially for black communities who, um, who are often, just you know, criminalized by the actions that uh, jeff landry, you know, does you know just overall his policies and stuff like that. Sometimes I just wonder, you know, has jeff landry ever like taken the time or consideration to really speak to families who you know, who complain of these like policies and stuff like that that are negatively affecting their communities as a whole? I mean, like what do you guys think?
Randall:yeah, you know you got a point.
Malachi:I agree with you you're correct, like all these lawmakers really are treading on unfamiliar territory, and if they were familiar with it, they simply just don't care.
Randall:At the end of the day, they want us removed from society and this goes for all minorities and back to turning us into a profit. And that brings us back to the mass incarceration issue amongst black people.
Malachi:Yeah, of course, the system within itself. You know, when Jim Crow laws fell, the system didn't just end, it evolved Right. We're looking at like in the 1970s and 80s, you know, governments launched war on drugs, disproportionately targeting blacks and brown communities. Now you know, just in essence, you know we knew that before mass incarceration really kind of begun, we got to look back at what black codes were right from 1865, right after the civil war, and it was enacted after, like immediately after the civil war, which criminalized everyday behaviors for black americans were like vagrancy, like uh, loitering and not even having a job, you know, and the whole goal that I look at it is as an increasing arrest and funneling free black people into forced labor. So I mean, what do you guys like generally think about? You know the fact that you know black codes after civil war. You know it's just increasing like substantially, very largely into um. You know, a way that they can't really do much.
Randall:I believe they want us to see like, want to see us back in chains again. This is about the whole make american great again bit that like trump likes to say. By the way, it was actually coined by ronald reagan first back during the war on drugs here in the 70s and 80s, but after which at that time the prison population stood at 500,000 versus now, in 2025, it quadrupled at 2 million.
Kevin:And that's just a crazy statement to hear, because you see the you see the prison population steadily going up and it's like it's like recidivism, like everything. Everybody's just repeating the same action over and over and it just gets to a point where it's like, instead of focusing on punishment, let's get to the root of why you're committing these crimes.
Kevin:Most of it might be due to money or survival they don't believe in criminology right or they, you know, some just need to, just need to be able to live in america.
Kevin:Living in americaica is hard, especially as a black man, right?
Kevin:So instead of just focusing on punishment, we need to start focusing on the rehabilitating these people, or seeing what's the issue, and not only that we're, you're sending them to these jails, they get out on these sentences and then when they get out, they still have the mindset of a prisoner. It's like you're failing them and you want them to come back, who leads to recidivism being high. Because they're coming back right when they're getting out and it's nothing being done. You're just setting them up for failure and we want to set them up for success. But if you can, it's like if you stop, if you don't set them up for success, the government is still going to make money because they're coming back, because for every time they're coming back, that's more money they're getting, more money they're getting. So it's kind of like do you even want to see, do you even want to kind of see them get better, or do you don't want to see them get better because it's going to stop money from? It's going to stop money from the state making from these prisons.
Randall:Yeah, I put. Like I said, some people do it for a survivability, some people know that their families are going to struggle without certain needs and services and, again, if that's not like, if money like that isn't funneled into the community, then these people are not going to have it, which means they're going to do something out of character to get said resource and if they're caught they're into the system for good. For good means good measures, they're there in the system and versus like when they actually get out now.
Randall:They have the mindset of a criminal, the ideal criminal. Now they are thug. Now you know, now it's not about survivability, now it's about more. So like oh, we got to put this monkey back in chains because he's going. You know, he's a threat to the community again. Meanwhile, the dude only did it because he was trying to take care of his one year old son who was sick, who needed some medicine, who some, uh, who just needed some painkillers. You know, I'm saying yeah, yeah, yeah.
Malachi:And again, like I always thought, you know, whether it was the 1890s or 2025, the formula is still the same. You know, criminalizing black life means exploiting the labor which justifies it within. You know how the government views black life and black forced labor. You know, um, like you guys all touched on, you know like rehabilitation is a huge thing that needs to. You know partake because, at the end of the day, you know they didn't have certain like roles or rules to like govern themselves. They were governed by the property of which was sheltering them, which is prisons and jails and stuff like that. So I think that it is imperative to um look at this issue and and just touch on and figure out how you know this government can stop being so social and racial control over, you know, black and marginalized communities lives. You know I always always think about that, like y'all ever like ask yourselves what would happen if y'all into the system right now man, I would be scared, that's all I know.
Malachi:You think you would change you what about you?
Kevin:I don't think I could survive. I like I've been graced to have a good home, being a good family, a two-parent household, loving sister. If that all was stripped from me today, I'm not gonna. I don't think I could make it like and that's like genuinely from the heart, like, and when you, when I'm saying that that happens to the everyday black man every other day and it's like you see why they're going back and you see why they're just having such a mental strain. Like you think, I think of a four wall, four walls, and you just tell yourself you're getting told when you go outside, you're getting told when you can eat, when you can barely see the light of day, barely see the light of day.
Kevin:It's like you're causing more pain that's pain already there instead of trying to help, and it's just like you go back to your question. I don't think I could survive. If anything, I'd probably be worse than you know, probably be worse coming out.
Randall:Then, you know, going in conditon is that you think it has anything to do with your skin color, or you think it's just the way the system is set up?
Kevin:I think it's both. At the end of the day um, my skin color plays a huge part I'm pretty sure I go in jail. They automatically will think oh, it's just another, another black man, another. He probably killed somebody, he probably stole something so yeah like you know, demoralizing my character, not knowing the things I've accomplished in, you know accomplished outside of it.
Randall:They don't know you're a graduate.
Kevin:They don't know none of that. But they just think because they see tattoos, they see earrings and they see, you know, they might see nice glasses. Oh, he just material person. He just thought she worried about money. He don't have no education, he don't know what he is and that's not only for the system that's for everybody in general. We just get a bad rep and people don't think we are.
Malachi:A whole lot of people think we lack education and it's just.
Randall:It's sad to see yeah, and I always think about it myself what would happen if I was suddenly placed in this system? I'd probably fall victim to it as well, I think. Because I'm a speaker on a personal level I get heavily influenced pretty easily. So if I realize this culture around me is what's going to shape me in the near future, then I'm probably going to stick back to it. I'm going to get right back into the system as soon as I'm out. Like I feel like I could put on a good behavior, a good effort for a number of years. But once I'm out, like I probably won't recognize who I am anymore, Like I would definitely be a shell of who I once was. I would probably get right back to the system, be right back to ask permission to use the damn bathroom.
Malachi:You know what I'm saying Like it's ridiculous, right. And you know we're looking at this from like just a mental health. You know standpoint. You know once a person is labeled a felon, especially as a black person, you know you lose access to housing. You know jobs, voting rights, just like you know under Jim Crow, which you know you're legally oppressed.
Kevin:You know from de facto and the de-jurisdiction Way to label a theory man yeah so so, to go back on what he just said, do y'all honestly think, with that all your rights being stripped away, do you think prisons have even have even taught you something, or it has prepared you like? Once you get out, you're ready for the real world?
Kevin:like he said you all your rights are stripped away. So it's like it's kind of like what, what can I do? You know, what do I have to look forward to getting out of here? I mean, yeah, I'm gonna have my freedom back, I'm gonna have, you know, I might I might not have a house. I may be staying with somebody. I may, you know, have tv I can watch tv, everyone but it's like, other than that, what do I have set up for me? So when I get out, I have look forward, I have something to look forward to. And when prisoners don't see that, it's like, okay, I might as well just go back I'll go back.
Kevin:At least I got something guaranteed set up for me. So it's like you know it's sad, yeah, I don't.
Randall:I don't really understand what they're really trying to do here. Like the whole rehabilitation aspect of prison just doesn't get talked about enough, and being so like they never picture what it's like to be put behind bars until it actually happens to them then it's like damn.
Randall:Suddenly they realize is this what we've been doing the entire time, like the more corrupt politicians, like finally get behind bars. They finally realize that this is the fruits of their labor, this is what they were pushing all these years. And all of a sudden it hits them like a mack trip. But guess what? You in the system, now you ain't passing that. It's too late. Your voting rights suppressed.
Kevin:Like you don't get, you don't get a name for yourself anymore, you can't your voting rights suppressed.
Randall:You don't get a name for yourself anymore. You can't even talk to anybody about it because, guess what, you're part of the statistic now. Now you know what it's like to not be heard, can't even?
Kevin:get a job. Because now, when you put on a job application, it's going to ask have you been convicted of a crime? You got to say yeah. And then 90, about 50 to 70% of the time, depending on the crime a violent crime specifically that job is going to take.
Malachi:You ain't getting that job.
Kevin:And then it's like, okay, well, I can't get a job. So what.
Malachi:I'm going to do.
Kevin:I'm going to go back to what I know how to do, how I'm going to get money. You know whether that be the illegal way, so it's a setup for failure.
Malachi:Yeah, and just to just bring a question out, you know, a huge thing we got to think about too is, like just challenging the stigma, you know, that surrounds especially as black people who've been incarcerated, who now have to get out in the world and figure this out on their own, you know. So do you feel like it is imperative or paramount to promote, like, public awareness campaigns that humanizing, you know, returning citizens you know who've been arrested, especially black citizens. Organizing you know returning, uh, citizens you know who've been arrested, especially black citizens. And then also, like, do you think it's also important to educate communities about barriers they face and why second chances matter most definitely?
Kevin:I feel like that'd be the that really what ties into the whole fact of like. We're talking about rehabilitation, letting these, letting these, the citizens, know because I consider them citizens whether they did something wrong and if they're citizens, they earned their right. We they need to be aware of what's coming to them in this real world. They need to be aware of the odds that you will have to fight against, so that way they go out and they know what to expect instead of just being thrown to the wolves. And in addition to your first question, when you said there needs to be more awareness, there definitely needs to be more awareness. If there's no awareness, we're just going to keep being, we're just going to keep following the same statistics crime is going to continue to go up, peak recidivism is still going to be high and there's nothing going to be done. It's almost like we just live in a repeated cycle. Randall, you care to add on about it?
Randall:I mean you pretty much tackled everything I was going to say about it. Man, it really is a repeated cycle again. We just nothing we can do about it. We don't have enough brothers and sisters in uh in congress. We don't have enough brothers and sisters in the legislature in general, even the state louisiana, like there's only so much they can do. We need the numbers. And if we don't have the numbers and obvious thing things are going to get passed and we can't do anything about it. And guess what? We right back in the cycle all over again. I don't know, it's a loophole not many people recognize and that's why it's even more important for us to have more graduates in uh, in school and law school and just having people pass policies, and for more people to have more insight about our situations. You know, whether it be in situations in the communities, you know black people or you know what it's not even about black people.
Randall:It could be communities all over. It could be communities, uh, latino communities, you know I'm saying they have issues at the borders or whatever. They don't get looked at enough. All they are identified as illegal immigrants and you get them out the country. Like we already have enough work for us, we don't need these people here. Like last time I checked, america was the home of the free and the brave, Am I right?
Kevin:So yeah, man, it's just, y'all got anything we got anything else to say about I want to say.
Kevin:I do want to say this one thing I don't want to make it seem like for the listeners that is listening at home or wherever they listen to.
Kevin:I don't want to say that there are no efforts being made, a plethora of organizations D9, um, korean accepted Masons where they'll kind of just touch upon or have know your rights, know your rights uh kind of speeches where they kind of talk to young black men and black men in general about what to know what rights you have and you know, uh kind of acknowledging them and setting them up for what the real world is like. So once they get out there they can avoid this from happening. Because we talk about rehabilitation, but we also need to talk about avoiding this and just trying to beat, you know, trying to beat the odds and not commit these crimes or getting in these sad situations where you can be locked up. So I think avoidance is also very important, so we can avoid all of this in general. But the sad truth is it probably won't happen. Crime will forever be here. But if we can just take the steps to avoid avoiding this happen, I think it'd be good too, right, and just kind of like really wrapping it up.
Malachi:You know we kind of talked about how mass incarceration didn't come from nowhere. You know it was crafted, it was maintained and, essentially, you know profited from and we know who they were profiting from. You know, and it's important that we keep this you know discussion going because you know, through awareness, resistance and care, there can definitely be a lot more improvement within. You know the way we came. You know, um, what's your thoughts on that? Kevin?
Kevin:uh, last, I kind of just stemming back with you, stemming back on what you were saying. You know it's, it's just a, it's a horrible situation in general. It's just I wish something would change, but it's going to take more than us three professors and students to just make that change and it takes our people to really like.
Randall:Do something about it too. We have a lot of people that are at home. I don't want to call them lazy, but let's say they're oblivious, highly oblivious, to the situation. At the end of the day's, let's just to re get back on the jeff landry topic, the whole reason why he's in office, because our people was not voting for it.
Randall:Like he blew the majority. There was no runoff, no whatsoever. So again, what were our people doing? Did they not see this coming? Like this is a republican, casual white male running for office, like we just weren't going to do anything about it? Because, I see me, I voted, I know y'all voted, but I know a lot of people that didn't vote and that was a problem. So again, like what about that ruse?
Malachi:like with the whole, like former mayor sharon boone like how did y'all feel with that whole like voting uh issue?
Randall:that took place well if I mean, if my data is correct about the situation, I believe that we had like a couple of people running the same agenda as miss broom versus letting her finish her term. Therefore, you had the vote split instead of just going straight to her and that created a overwhelming majority for edwards, because why we have these other people trying to run? Why just let her finish her term?
Randall:so yeah like it's just a lot of people that aren't really self-aware to the situation, not really educated, so to speak, and therefore they lack the knowledge to make really good concise decision-making skills. And again, typically it's our people and they they don't, they lack the access to to obtain this information in general. So it's up to us to figure out how we can go out and tell them about it whether they want to actually listen to us or not.
Randall:It's not really a concern, but as long as they know, something about it and they can pass on to one another.
Kevin:Our job is done.
Randall:You know what I'm saying, especially as Southern University students. Our job is done as long as we go out and tell at least one person this and they pass on the information to one another. We need everyone to be on effort as much as possible. So, as far as anything else goes, you don't have anything to say before we conclude.
Kevin:Yeah, before we conclude, I just want to say one thing, because you did touch upon that and that's probably the most important part the lack of people not knowing A lot of people. They just don't know how government works, they don't know the structure of government, they don't know how a you know a law gets passed, how laws are even introduced, and that does lead into us not showing out in the votes a lot of people to be honest, the wording, sometimes even the wording- that these bills are worded in and format.
Kevin:They're weird like I only know how it's based off. I said my professors teaching me and my knowledge I have with how they word the word yeah, I'm only know because I work around it.
Randall:I work around the people that actually draft these bills up themselves and they taught me how to actually read it. But to the common man that's they're not.
Kevin:Yeah, they're not gonna know yeah so I feel like if we could teach our people just how to read, how to understand the terminology used within these bills and teaching them the importance of voting. Like I said, our people died and car died and fought and cried to get the uh voting. So we just need to show the importance of just going out there and making a change, and if the change is not going to be made, then you just don't care. You're just going to expect to live in this corrupt system okay game thing safe no I think, at the end of the day, you guys covered very important parts.
Malachi:um, it's really just all about raising this awareness to the black community as a whole. Um, like you know, we all mentioned, you know our ancestors fought very hard for us to have the rights that we have today and we should be very grateful for that. And we should continue on the fight, no matter what, because you know, at the end of the day, the system's not going to stop. You know it's only up for only up to us to make that change, to make sure that you know we're all treated accountably and equally as a whole.
Randall:We're all treated accountably and equally as a whole. Well, if any guy wants to say to conclude for the listeners, as we've explored in the, in this episode of Justice Unleashed, look, the link between mass incarceration and genealogical slavery isn't just theoretical. I need to understand. It's historical, very historical, historical, very historical. The structures of racial control that began with slavery have evolved over generations in new forms, including Jim Crow laws, discriminatory policing and, ultimately, the prison pipeline complex, while the names and methods may have shifted over time. While there were parties, agendas like Republican and Democratic parties have switched up.
Randall:The intent to control stays the same, and it's the dehumanized black communities, and it remains hauntingly familiar to us. So I need y'all to understand that this connection just isn't about looking backward. It's about recognizing how the past continues to shape the present and why true justice requires like confronting these deeply embedded legacies. Um, that is it for our podcast. Guys, I'm Randall, I'm Kevin, I'm Malachi, and thank you for listening.