Working Mom Burnout: You Can Have It All Without Doing It All with Courtney Cecil

Full Episode Page: Working Mom Burnout: Have It All Without Doing It All

Courtney Cecil is a burnout coach, author, and former Fortune 50 Head of Culture known for championing working parents.

Host Kelly Berry explores sustainable life design with Courtney, founder of Working Moms Movement. They dig into executive functioning skills, time‑saving home systems, and the mindset shifts that turn “doing it all” into “having it all.” If mom guilt, blurred boundaries, and nonstop to‑dos feel familiar, expect an empowering blueprint for balance and career growth.

Find Out

• How tiny “snack‑size” habits crush working mom burnout
• What executive functioning adds to career momentum
• Whether mom guilt silently fuels stress and overload
• The best boundary script to stop scope creep fast
• Her take on redefining success so moms thrive

Links

• Working Moms Movement Official site
• Working Moms Movement on Instagram
• Courtney on LinkedIn
• Luxury “REtreat (yo’self)” Girl’s Trip
• Life Management System podcast
• Wally's First Day of School

Chapters
02:20 Courtney Cecil’s Journey and Working Moms Movement
05:09 Creating Sustainable Work‑Life Balance
09:35 Burnout, Time, and Mom Guilt
14:18 Executive Functioning at Home and Work
17:56 Decision Paralysis and Mental Overload
21:24 Parenting Stages and Emotional Load
23:11 Perfectionism and Gender Bias in Corporate America
29:37 How to Prioritize with Intention
35:41 Authenticity vs. Assimilation in the Workplace
40:38 The Sacrifice Myth: Why Doing It All Isn’t the Goal
45:49 Why Community and Delegation Are Keys to Sustainability
50:13 Having It All vs. Doing It All

Life Intended is a podcast and coaching platform for women who are ready to stop waiting and start leading. Co-hosted by Kelly Berry and Sadie Wackett, each episode explores self-leadership, identity, emotional wellness, and living with intention.

About Kelly Berry
Kelly Berry is a strategic business leader, coach, and founder of Life Intended. She helps women build clarity, confidence, and alignment in life and work. She enjoys spending quality time with her husband American entrepreneur Nick Berry and daughter Vivienne. Her life is a testament to the power of resilience and intention.
🔗 kellyberry.info | @lifeintendedpodcast

About Sadie Wackett
Sadie Wackett is a C-suite HR executive, certified coach, and co-founder of Life Intended. She supports women through leadership transitions, self-trust, and personal transformation. Sadie is originally from the UK and now lives in South Florida with her husband, daughter and dog, Pickles.
🔗 sadiewackett.com | LinkedIn

Life Intended is published in partnership with FCG...

Transcript

00:00 Welcome to Life Intended: Living with Purpose
02:20 Courtney Cecil's Journey and the Birth of Working Moms Movement
05:09 How to Create Sustainable Work-Life Balance as a Working Mom
09:35 Common Working Mom Struggles: Burnout, Time, and Guilt
12:05 Executive Functioning Skills for Career and Life Growth
14:18 What Executive Functioning Really Means at Home and Work
17:56 Overcoming Decision Paralysis and Mental Overload
21:24 The Reality of Parenting Stages and Emotional Load
23:11 Perfectionism and Gender Bias in Corporate America
29:37 How to Prioritize with Intention and Let Go of Control
35:41 Authenticity vs. Assimilation in the Workplace
40:38 The Sacrifice Myth: Why Doing It All Isn’t the Goal
45:49 Why Community and Delegation Are Keys to Sustainability
50:13 Redefining Success: Having It All vs. Doing It All
56:30 Final Thoughts from Life Intended

Kelly Berry (01:05)
Today, I'm excited to talk to Courtney Cecil. Courtney is a founder of Working Moms Movement. She's a burnout coach, a speaker, host of the Life Management System podcast, author, and she is the head of culture at a Fortune 50 company.

She studied industrial and systems engineering at Virginia Tech, is a proud wife and mom, and she's based in Charlotte, North Carolina. believes in building a movement to help busy parents reclaim their control and free time so that they can confidently remain in the workforce without losing their sanity or themselves. Welcome Courtney, it's great to have you here today.

Courtney Cecil (01:23)
She studied industrial and systems engineering at

Thank you Kelly and I will say it is a little uncomfortable sitting here hearing my resume read off like that but it was kind of cool at the same time. Thank you so much for having me here.

Kelly Berry (01:50)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, thank you. I've talked to a couple guests about that. Like it kind of just brings about some imposter syndrome. Like who is she talking about? But you, yeah, you've done a lot. So I'd like to actually hear more about that because I know, you know, you do have this company that you're running, the Working Moms Movement, and it's very personal to you. So I'd just like to hear your story, how you got where you are and why.

Courtney Cecil (02:04)
Yeah.

Bye.

Kelly Berry (02:20)
you what I read about you helping people navigate and stay in the workforce. Like, why is that so important to you?

Courtney Cecil (02:26)
my gosh, there's a lot to unpack there. So let's start with the crux of what working moms movement is, because I think that is going to help provide a little bit of color as I talk about my story and what led me there. And then of course, why it's so important to me to help keep women in the workforce. So working moms movement takes the best of both of my worlds. is the behavior change.

Kelly Berry (02:29)
Yeah.

Courtney Cecil (02:52)
that I pull for my day job. So culture shaping is nothing more than behavior, true rooted behavior change. In order to change the culture of an organization, you drive it two ways. One is the top down, the second is the bottom up. And the way you're gonna drive it from the bottom up is intrinsically motivating people to do something different. Because when you show up differently, that's going to be felt by your team and then the organization at large.

culture shaping is essentially behavior change and behavior change is essentially habit change. So one of the things that I work with my clients on is helping them change their habits and help create systems so that they that way they can have a more permanent way of doing life. when I the systems piece that's that's for my industrial systems engineering background. So I see for those that don't know it's essentially efficiency 101 effectiveness 101 like how do I make how do I optimize?

whatever it is that I'm looking at, whatever the quote unquote system is. So as it relates to the business, it's helping working moms specifically, if I'm in my B2C practice, if I am speaking to in my B2B role, working with companies or talking to their employee resource groups or that sort of thing to working parents at large. It's the same thing. It's how do I help you and the ecosystem around you be more efficient so that way your career can become more sustainable.

and you are in a place of power to where you can be more engaged both at home and at work. So the reason that's so important to me is, well, the easy answer is as a head of culture, the culture space is solved for two things essentially. It's how do I retain my employees and how do I keep them engaged? So it is just inherently what I geek out on in the day job, but more importantly, I've known what it's like to

to be ready to throw in the towel. actually am coming out of the back end of what I'd consider Kelly probably borderline PTSD from the workplace. I had an incredibly toxic boss in work environment. Gosh, it's been seven years ago now. But it took that long to recover from that circumstance. And it was a very unsustainable part of life. So dating back to 2017,

I was in a place where I had just had my second kid. I had just moved into a new house. So a lot, just a lot of personal stuff going on. And then I took this new job and this new job was, I was working under a very, he was known for being somewhat of a toxic leader, I was working 80 hours a week. And there was this moment where my youngest had RSV.

He was probably seven months old at the time. And I worked 80 hours that week, 80 and a half to be exact. And my youngest is just so pathetic, could not breathe. And I couldn't find a half hour to sit there with my son and just hold him and be there to support him. following the next week, I ended up getting in trouble for the level of results.

that I got out of that week. But I gave everything away to the workplace, which was so unfair of me and so unfair to my son and my family that I was sacrificing that much of who I was. So the fact that this boss, it tells you the kind of culture I was working under at the time. The fact that I got in trouble for working 80 hours because it wasn't enough is just, that's part of the narrative that is one, quite frankly, bullshit.

there's no reason that that should have been the conversation that he had with me. It should have been thank you. But two, it was my wake up call because I was experiencing some severe PTSD from working in that environment. I wasn't sleeping. And because of that, I developed severe sleep anxiety. was very unhappy and there was absolutely no balance. So in addition to giving too much of myself a way to work in ways that they certainly weren't paying me to do.

I was also not able to balance what was going on at home life because I was working so much. And I realized that in order to continue my career, I had to figure out how to make things more sustainable. And while that certainly included putting boundaries in place with work, and then that's part of what I do is help women figure out how to put those boundaries in place. But the other thing I had to do was treat my home life like I treat my work life. I had to learn to delegate smarter. I had to learn.

Kelly Berry (06:57)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (07:17)
to create systems that would make sure that I am in a place of time freedom and stress freedom. that way, whatever is going on at work or whatever is going on in my personal life, I know that my home is still cared for and that doesn't have to be the source of stress for me. So that's one of the things that I kind of work with moms on, but having been in that circumstance before and felt so broken and helpless, I just feel immensely passionate.

Kelly Berry (07:34)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (07:47)
about saying, you know what, if you do work that much, one, I hope it's something you really enjoy, but two, let me help you figure out how you manage it all to make it sustainable so you don't get to the place of burnout, which is where I

Kelly Berry (08:00)
So you said something in there that kind of caught my attention and made me start thinking, but did you use the phrase like permanent lifestyle?

Courtney Cecil (08:10)
Yes, so it's a state I use this term sustainable lifestyle. So I always say my core program, I have a group coaching program. And that core program is called the life management system. And the life management system, I always say is just applicable as applicable to a 22 year old dude as it is a working mom. It's just that my niche, I am so passionate about helping the working moms that that's, that's where I've doubled down done. But the point of it is

Kelly Berry (08:14)
Okay.

Courtney Cecil (08:36)
What I teach people is intended to build a sustainable life to where you perpetually feel more in control and more at peace and less stressed and you have more time abundance. Whether that be your mental state or the physical state to make the life management system work for you because that sustainability like regardless of it's for example, one of my best friends is a stay at home mom and she volunteers a lot.

inherently works as hard as we do, but she doesn't get paid for it. But if she is electing to spend her time in that way, that's fine. The life management system applies to her too. It's how, you know, how would I help make the lifestyle she has chosen for herself sustainable so that way she can do all of that without losing herself because that sustainability is what's ultimately going to keep a dual income family possible.

to keep more women in the workplace and therefore get more women into leadership roles.

Kelly Berry (09:35)
Yeah, so when people find you and they're looking for your help, like what are some of their most common struggles that they're having or problems that they're just not able to fix for themselves?

Courtney Cecil (09:48)
Yes,

thank you for asking that question. I like it. So a lot of it is time and stress. Like those are the two fundamental issues. I don't have enough time. I'm losing myself. I can't take care of myself. I'm not present enough for my family. Last time I went to the gym, apparently it was three years ago based on the dust on my gym shoes, you know, that sort of thing. That tends to be the leading one. One of the others is mom guilt. So

Kelly Berry (10:12)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (10:12)
That

tends to be more of the problem that comes up in my DMS. I'm very, very active in my DMS, my working moms movement account on Instagram specifically. And the mom guilt tends to be a problem, not necessarily something that people want to invest in and the quite the same way that they do and time and stress management. But what I'm finding is the underlying guilt tends to be a lot of what's causing them both the stress and the time.

that they that they're suffering from. So I would say that time and stress management is one of them. The other big thing is career related decisions. So I'm not a career coach. I'm not going to sit down with you and say, you know what, I believe that this job over here, solving this problem at this type of industry is the best fit for you that that's not what I do. But what I help women with is figure out the the executive functioning skills they need to continue growing their career.

And those executive functioning skills are a byproduct of what they do at work and at home. So often when we get exec coaching, it's focused or any coaching or training for that matter, the workplace focuses on what happens in the nine to five. But what happens in the five to nine is just as important because when you take care of the five to nine, all of a sudden you're in a place of power where you can be more qualified at work. You can continue growing your career.

And that's something, by the way, I never thought I'd be able to do. I remember turning to my husband back in 2011 and saying, you know what, I really never hoped to become anything more than a manager because I didn't think it was going to be possible to continue growing my career and managing a family. So part of what women will come to me for is either one of two things primarily related to their career. One, hey, I really love this and want to continue to do more.

Kelly Berry (11:53)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (12:05)
more of it, but in order to continue growing, I've got to do something different because this is, I can't imagine a life where I could take on anything more than I do now. Or two, hey, I'm actually not sure if I want to work. I'm not sure if this works for me. So how can you help me get clarity on the role that work plays in my life and plays for my family? So that way I can make a more calculated decision. Because what I always tell people is, listen,

my in the scheme of things, my program is a drop in the bucket, truly drop in the bucket, very affordable for almost all dual income families. But the cost of losing your salary is significant. And even more so the cost of losing your salary as it relates to the growth is significant. the way that I think about it, Kelly, is more of this economic curve. So if I stay in my career an extra

Kelly Berry (12:50)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (12:58)
three years, five years and continue getting promotions and continue growing up in my career. Well, that is that much more incremental money that I can outsource and get rid of and delegate at home to make my home life easier. So I'm actually working just as much as I was, but I'm doing less of the bottom feeder kind of work that doesn't actually fill my cup up. So I always, the phrase that I always use is,

around focusing on your highest and best use. like truly life intended, that's life intended. When you are focused on your highest and best use, you're doing the things that are aligned to your values, are aligned to your skills and aligned to you being the best person to do them because it either brings you significant joy or because you're the most qualified. Like that's life intended. So helping women get more calculated.

Kelly Berry (13:31)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (13:53)
and more intentional with their decision making, with their actions, with their time is what ultimately leads to that career growth, that career path or the career clarity on the role that their job either enhances or detracts from them personally and their family.

Kelly Berry (14:08)
Mm-hmm. So for those in my audience who aren't familiar with executive functioning or what those executive functions are, can you kind of define what that means as it pertains to like the conversation that you were having?

Courtney Cecil (14:18)
Yes. Yeah,

yeah, thanks for calling that out. So I would say executive functioning is truly the ability to perform at a higher level. It is the polish. It is the ability to manage the workload, which happens for anybody that's had more than one kid. It's perfect analogy. You, and probably the best analogy to make it tangible.

So when you have one kid, I remember, gosh, my husband and I, we thought we had it nailed. We're like, I don't understand why this parenting thing is so hard. And then we were significantly humbled when we added a second kid to our plate, because holy crap, it's bananas. And it was so hard, so incrementally harder than having just one, and we weren't prepared for that. So that's probably the best analogy of executive functioning at a macro level.

It's less about the individual things and more about the ability to continue growing without letting any balls drop. So part of it, you refer to exec functioning in the workplace, that is the polish in the decision making and that sort of thing. But those are the same kind of skills that are gonna help you at home. The decision making, the problem solving that helps you in the workplace will help you at home and vice versa. And in fact, I would argue 10 times out of 10, a working mom or whoever's the lead parent at home,

they're the ones that are getting all of those executive functioning skills at home that will bleed into their work life and make them that much better because you you think about your home life you're having to prioritize you're having to decision make you're having to do all the stuff that will will help you make those hard decisions move fast stay stay focused and whatever it may be at work so it is those home exec functioning skills that i focus on the most not not fully like there are plenty of my clients

that really do struggle with boundaries or time management specific to work. And we work through that. But I would say three quarters of them, the problems act, they think it's work, but it actually is what's happening at home in ways that they just don't realize. It's kind of the decision making or the lack of intentional decision making that is permeating all parts of their life.

Kelly Berry (16:26)
Yeah. Well, side note, I only have one kid and I think it's really hard. And I think all people who have more than one kid are superheroes. And also...

Courtney Cecil (16:33)
Well, I guess I will tell you,

like after having the second, anytime I see like three or four or five, like walking down the street, I'm like, oh my gosh, God bless those parents. I don't know how they do it.

Kelly Berry (16:42)
I know, I know.

Talk about balance. like, I how do you, you know, I'm just thinking about this week. It's like, all of sudden, my daughter crawls out of her crib. so even though I've like been researching toddler beds and all this stuff, I don't have one. So last night, I'm, you know, spending my time ordering one and then she's got daddy daughter dance. And then next week is like, bake sale at school and Valentine's Day and all this stuff. And I'm like,

I mean, imagine if you had three or four kids that you're trying to like make all these decisions and juggle this all around. You know, I'm like overwhelmed with, you know, I need to check. Does she have a dress for the daddy daughter dance or do I need to order one? Do her sandals fit or do I need to order them? But you know, it's just those types of things all the time. And I think to your, probably you see this a lot when people get overwhelmed or bogged down by those decisions or maybe like

Courtney Cecil (17:11)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kelly Berry (17:36)
They're trying to handle all of this and work is really stressful and you're so dysregulated that you're also, you you're not able to think clearly. You're not able to like make good decisions or maybe make decisions at all. Do you find that women like struggle with that aspect of it too? Just being totally like frozen? Yeah.

Courtney Cecil (17:56)
Paralyzed, exactly. So

in fact, just yesterday I was on my group coaching call. So I'll take on one-on-one clients. Those tend to have more white glove needs, either because of the complexity of their problems or because they are at an executive level themselves already and it's too much to be able to force their schedule into the group program availability. But in the group program, one of my clients just yesterday was...

exactly what you're describing, completely paralyzed from being able to make a decision because her life is so, so saturated. She doesn't even know where to begin. So one of the things that I do and the way that I start this is, hey, we're gonna go, we're gonna start 60 minutes outside the group program. We're gonna get really deep with you and your specific schedule, your specific problems. So that way I can give you like just a sliver of what you need to focus on now.

Kelly Berry (18:31)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (18:49)
And that's where the behavior change strengths from my technical qualifications come in because what I'm essentially trying to get them to do is introduce one tiny habit at a time. I call them snack-sized habits because when you're introducing a change and we're doing it in such a consumable way, it allows them to actually transition it into a habit to where then...

it's showing up in their lives every single day. And then you just go on autopilot. So it becomes part of what they are, but it is helping them take a step back from the swirl and just say, you know what, I know you see the swirl, but I see opportunity. And let's tackle those opportunities one tiny bit at a time based on where you're bleeding the most. And let's stop the bleeding.

Kelly Berry (19:38)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (19:40)
and then slowly get you, like dig you out of the hole and get you above ground a little bit. But so many of them are in the point of overwhelm. And unfortunately, that isn't where I wanted to be. When I first started working mom's movement, I thought I was going to be working with expecting parents. Reason being, my thinking was, hey, let me help you get ahead of this. I can help you make sure you never get to the point.

where you feel like you're drowning or where you realize that life is just chaotic. But that's not where we are mentally when we're having our first baby. At that point, we're thinking, okay, I need to worry about the crib. I need to worry about what size my little peanut is or my cantaloupe is. We're just not thinking about, hey, what's this gonna look like on the flip side and how do I make it all work?

Kelly Berry (20:26)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (20:31)
So I have found that all of my clients so far have had kids. The large majority have multiple kids. Because that's when you realize this actually is just really tough. You live in this blissful cocoon for a bit where you're like, when they start sleeping, everything's going to get better. And then it's, when they start napping or when they stop napping, everything will get better. Or, no, when they're out of diapers, everything's going to get better. Or when they're in.

Kelly Berry (20:43)
Yeah.

Courtney Cecil (20:56)
daycare full time or when they're in kindergarten. And then it's oftentimes when you hit kindergarten and you're going into first grade, you're like, you know what crap, that's just, no, this is really hard. Like this is just really hard and I have to do something different or this is what my life will look like for the next 12, 13 years because they only get that there is such a misconception that life gets easier as they get older because they're in school. And that is just.

Kelly Berry (21:07)
Thank you.

Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (21:24)
from every parent that has come before me that I've talked to, they're like, yeah, you might not have to take care of bedtime, but that's literally the only thing that's giving up. Everything else is harder. Like you just get pulled in a lot more direction. So it is at that point where many of the moms call Pee-Nuckle and they're like, God, help me. How do I dig myself out of this and make it to a point where I actually get to enjoy the next 13 years as opposed to feeling like,

Kelly Berry (21:33)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Courtney Cecil (21:50)
you know, every single day is a struggle.

Kelly Berry (21:54)
Yeah, yeah, I totally get that. It's almost like that you don't know what you don't know type of thing. It's like, yeah, it would be great if part of what we thought about when we were getting ready to have a baby are all of the things. But like, you can really only tackle. you think that the stage that you're in is the hardest stage, but then you get to the next stage and you realize that it's harder and it just keeps going and going and going after that.

Courtney Cecil (21:59)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah,

Kelly Berry (22:20)
First year.

Courtney Cecil (22:20)
but every single one of them is so much fun. And that's one thing my parents always told me is they're like, really enjoy the stage and you're in my dad said he had a tendency when we were growing up to get really excited about the next one. So it's like, you know, when they're this age, we get to watch these movies with them, or they'll actually be able to actually be able to work on.

Kelly Berry (22:23)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (22:40)
how to dribble a basketball or whatever it may be. it's like, you just need to enjoy the phase that you're in now, because they're all really good in their own way. And I completely appreciate that.

Kelly Berry (22:45)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Okay. Well, I have something that I wanted to talk to you about because I feel like with your corporate role as head of culture at a Fortune 50 and what you're doing with working moms, that you can kind of like break down some of these things a little bit better. I actually, somebody sent this article to me last week.

And it is a 2022 Harvard Business Review study about harmful ways that women must adapt in corporate America. And as I was reading through them, myself had not been a part of corporate America. I've been an entrepreneur or in entrepreneurial working environments for the past 20 years. So I can see these, but I haven't lived them.

Courtney Cecil (23:23)
myself have not been a part of Open America. I've been in...

in the past 20 years. I can see these, but I haven't lived

them. But I think...

Kelly Berry (23:34)
But I think like

for the majority of people that you work with and a lot of my audience, these will really resonate. So kind of just want to see these are things that you've experienced in corporate America or a big thread here for the women that you're working with. So I'm just going to go through them like one by one and let you kind of talk about them and see if these are things that people that you work with kind of like suffer with. So number one is the need to be perfect.

Courtney Cecil (23:48)
just gonna go through them one by one and talk about them and see if these are things that people that you work with kinda like stuff away. So number one is the need.

Kelly Berry (24:01)
And so what they say is this causes like hypervigilance, extreme self-criticism. People are constantly on guard, especially, you know, this is Black History Month. So this applies for women, but really minorities of all kinds, like women of color. Like they, a lot of times feel like the only blank in the room, whether that's the only woman in the room or the only, you know, whatever that is. Is this like perfectionism?

Courtney Cecil (24:24)
Is this perfectionism

Kelly Berry (24:27)
something that you see or something that your clients struggle with a lot.

Courtney Cecil (24:27)
something that you see or something that you might struggle with a lot? Oh, I, 100%. I don't have a single client that's come through that hasn't claimed that that shows up for them. Now, to your point, a lot of the more entrepreneurial type clients are a little bit different. But I would say of all of the corporate, it's like in spades. it wasn't, this was a big insight for me.

Kelly Berry (24:38)
Yeah.

Courtney Cecil (24:54)
I went just last year, I went to a conference that was full of entrepreneurs. It was the first of its kind I'd ever been to. And it wasn't until then that I realized, wow, we are very different in corporate. The rest of the world doesn't think and act and say and talk and do all the things that we do. It was so insightful for me to realize that in corporate, we tend to be a little bit, know,

myopic in the way that we engage and the ways that the rest of the world just really isn't. so I, it even hearing you talk now, Kelly, when I hear what you just said, I'm like, wait, that's not a problem that everybody's else. Yes, it is. I, and I do believe that, that it's

Kelly Berry (25:38)
Right. Yeah.

Courtney Cecil (25:47)
probably the minorities of which I have often been one as an engineer as a female engineer. It shows up like that has very much been a part of my life. And I think a lot of it goes back to the fact that we are and we feel like in order to compete at the same level of standards, we have no grace granted to us because there is some unintentional bias that is applied simply because we think process.

Kelly Berry (26:08)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (26:14)
very differently. So part of it comes back to managing against the inherent bias that you know will be introduced. The other part of it is the pressure of playing catch up. So I actually just had a conversation with a gentleman earlier who is the founder of a company called the company is actually called the company of dads. It's called the company of dads. the point of Paul, his name is Paul, the point of Paul's company is to help

encourage both organizations and men to essentially become equal partners in the workplace. And part of doing that, part of what leads to that is taking a full paternity leave, just like you're, know, as a caregiver, many of the women, particularly the childbearing women, will take a full maternity leave. But that often doesn't happen with the men.

And what happens is that man is getting, so if I go out and I take three months, but my husband doesn't, and by the way, my husband got zero days when we had our oldest. And apparently also the average parental leave that men take, the average is one day. So that tells you they just tend not to do it. So what's happening though is they're getting FaceTime that entire time we're out. The entire time that we're healing,

Kelly Berry (27:30)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (27:37)
our bodies and taking care of getting the baby matured enough to be able to hand off to the next caregiver in order to be able to work. That's a lot of time across, when you think about it at the macro scale of women being removed from the workplace. And that is at our detriment. So if you think about the way that perfectionism shows up in the corporate.

think about what a ball and chain that is for women at home. Because so many of my clients, and me included, this is something I work on every single day. It's figuring out how to let go of the stuff that doesn't matter. Because I am used to feeling the pressure of being perfect all the time at work. That even at my home life that shows up. But I still, I'm not at a place at work where I would ever cut a corner because

I know that it's going to be held against me. And it showed up like one of the most tangible ways it showed up for me at my last company. I spent 16 years there. I worked for two different CEO administrations. And in my last role, I had a gentleman reporting to me who was very capable, but had eight years less experience. And you could tell that in his, you know, in some of the feedback that I was giving him and

some of the way he showed up, but he had eight years less relevant experience and he made $62,000 more than me. And both HR and my boss who had all of the authority in the world to write that wrong, instead said, Courtney, I'm sorry, you can't give him his compensation conversation because he makes more than you. Instead of saying like, hold up, time out, something's wrong with this. They continued to let that, that

narrative continue. So that tells you that there is just an uphill battle that women are constantly trying to fight in order to reach parity. And that's that leads to that perfectionism.

Kelly Berry (29:26)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Yeah, all really good stuff in here. want to ask you a question I mentioned to you. I've been listening. Courtney has her own podcast. You should listen to it. It'll be in the show notes, but something I heard you talk about, or maybe even it was on Instagram stories recently, you really know your priorities. So you're able to kind of ignore the things that are not in alignment with your priorities.

I'm sure that conflicts with your perfectionist tendencies. You even mentioned, you know, like you were the valedictorian of your class and you're still able to like look away from things that don't matter. And I know that that can be really tough for people. So how do you, how do you do it? How did you get yourself to the point where you could do that? And then how do you help other people like, I guess, turn a blind eye to things that just really don't matter?

Courtney Cecil (30:25)
Yeah, well, there's no blind eyeing it. Like, it's still very much called at me. I call it the B minus mindset. And what I mean by that, and why I always joke in the context of me about be valedictorian, like, I care a lot about good grades. And there are just some things where the grades don't matter. And it's kind of like taking a class that is not actually going to get applied to your GPA. You can show up, you can do the learning and learning your style. But maybe you're not showing the work.

Kelly Berry (30:30)
Okay.

Courtney Cecil (30:54)
you're not showing your work on your homework, if the grade at the end of the day doesn't matter. It's kind of that same mentality. I like truly, truly, truly more than anybody I know, live my life with absolute calculated intention. And part of the way that I have to be intentional and the way that I have to do things differently now that I have kids is I have to get even clearer with aligning.

what it is I do and how I do it with my priorities. Because there's just physically not enough time to go around in the day. I always tell my clients or anybody who will talk to me, especially when I'm speaking out, when the company brings me in to speak to their women's research group or working parents, research group or managers or whatever it may be. I'm like, y'all newsflash there are 24 hours in a day and we're all human and we all need to sleep. And the only way that you can care for your wellness and get sleep and still get everything's

that you want to get done is to get super clear on what your priorities are. And that muscle, that learning to let things go, learning to be a little less perfect, this, gosh, Kelly, this podcast is the perfect example of that. I would have never gotten on a podcast where I know is being recorded. Like, I mean, I don't look shabby, but I don't look, I don't look my best self right now either. But it was either what I used to let me, like what I used to do is I would let,

Kelly Berry (32:10)
you

Courtney Cecil (32:18)
my perfectionism be what, what ruled my decision making. And that's unfortunately crap. And it, was starting to take me like mentally and physically taking me. So it wasn't until I had this insight like, man, I am letting this vanity expectation of how I need to look, how polished I need to be in order to be in the executive ranks be what is

driving everything else I do because I was spending way too much time getting myself ready. I would never work out or do anything that would put me in a place where I have to wear my hair back in a ponytail like it is now. know, things like that that were holding me back from truly being at my best self, but moreover being happy and being sustainable, you know, living the sustainable life. So part of

The big part of what I help my clients with when they struggle with this is narrowing it with perfectionism specifically is narrowing in on what those priorities are. Because when you know it's really it actually goes back a step further. It's your value system when you know what you value. And by the way you and your family are aligned about around that you know what you prioritize we know what you prioritize you know how to expend your resources whether that be time money or energy. So

What I also find is that oftentimes women and their partner, the moms that I work with and their partner, they're not aligned in what their values and priorities are. So that's causing a lot of friction as well because they're chasing two different things and they don't even realize they think they're aligned. And it isn't until I make them go through these exercises together where they're like, well crap, you know, this is where I'm headed and this is where I'm headed in order for us to actually have live in harmony.

Kelly Berry (33:52)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (34:06)
and to be able to raise our kids together and to know that we're going to still be together on the backside of it, we have to start figuring out how we get closer together, but also how we help each other on our own priorities. Like my husband, as an example, loves to go skiing. I do it for him. I hate the cold. I will show up and do it for him. I've skied my entire life. But if it wasn't for it being a priority to him, I would never go. And because he loves to go, I'm also going to support him.

Kelly Berry (34:31)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (34:34)
going out what plays fine out West too. So we went, went skiing as a family and then he'll take two other trips this season before, before the season's out. And I'm going to make sure he's able to do that. But he also knows this business is important to me. So when it comes to doing things around the house and taking on, as for an example, this weekend and most weekends, have birthday parties and basketball and soccer and football and all the things.

He's doing a lot of that Aaron running that we used to be very equal on because he knows that's my time to get worked on for this business. So it is getting clear on those priorities that allows us to better manage the decisions that we make as a family and how we can support each other. Teamwork makes the dream work.

Kelly Berry (35:09)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, teamwork for sure. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay, so that was just number one, perfectionism. So we'll go back to the article number two. The thing was, I need to fit into rise. So this one talked about how women feel like they have to assimilate, give up their core identity.

remain like professional quote unquote. And so what this looks like is like not sharing about their personal life, not sharing about their kids, not putting pictures in their office. They kind of like look around the room to see how are other people showing up here and feeling like I have to show up like other people show up. I can't show up like myself.

Courtney Cecil (36:01)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that is thankfully becoming more antiquated, but still very much a norm. I think that one of the best things the DE &I movement has had has been allowing people a little bit more breathing room to not show up as like this harmonious robot. So having black people, women particularly, being able to wear their authentic hair as opposed to feeling like the weaves need to be there. Allowing our LGBTQ

community to lean in to their natural, you know, whatever style they feel more comfortable with. That kind of physical presence is actually encouraged now in the workplace in ways that it never used to be. I remember my first day on the job though, Karina this was in 2007, like my first day in corporate, I was a manufacturer before that. My first day in corporate, we're getting talks about things like make sure that your pants always extend beyond your ankles.

no ankle showing, make sure that if you have multiple piercings, you only wear one ear piercing. And as you can see, Kelly, like I've got two ear piercings. They're very professional. And I just, it's just my stud and then a hoop. That's what I wear every day. But those are the kind of, that's the type of feedback we're getting circa 2007. I would say that yes, is women as a whole are expected to show up at work.

Kelly Berry (37:18)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (37:25)
like they have no home life. That all the things that we do are in support of serving the company. And that's exactly when I go back to that story of why I started Working Mom's Movement. The reason that I did is I was expected to not have a family. In fact, the fact that I had this seven month old baby at home that had RSV, that's not an excuse to work less than 80 hours. That like,

Kelly Berry (37:26)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (37:53)
That's crap, that's absolute crap. So I would say thankfully that is a lot more normalized now. It's not nearly as bad as it was 15, 20 years ago, but it's still gonna take another 15, 20 years for things to look really different.

Kelly Berry (37:54)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think personally, my experience before having a child and after having a child, I think for whatever reason, I just didn't understand what it took to be a mom and the amount of brain cells that you no longer have and all of the directions that your mind is going. And so hopefully,

people like you who are bringing more attention to this and people who are really, I guess, championing for people to be treated like people in the workplace instead of like robots. We'll see a big change with this as well. But I think to expect anybody to be able to show up in complete service of the company and they don't have a personal life is pretty unreasonable, I think.

Courtney Cecil (39:00)
Yeah, it

is. And thankfully, is people were putting a lot more emphasis, particularly post pandemic, on just acknowledging that people do have another life. So I think the pandemic actually helps accelerate the normalization of work-life integration as opposed to work-life balance. I'm a big believer in work-life integration because it allows you to be seen as human.

Kelly Berry (39:05)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (39:24)
and for people to be empathetic with you having other priorities that are not always your job. I'm also, just, gosh, was like two weeks ago, Kelly, I was commuting, was traveling to Des Moines, Iowa for work. And I looked around the room, I was like, huh, I am legitimately the only executive in this room that is married with kids. So it is sending the message that not only, like to get to those levels, not only,

can you not have kids, you can't even be married. So it was the, you know, it is that kind of environment that I'm trying to fall for because until we get more working parents or primary caregivers, so I would say, you know, there's no stronger advocate than a man who is a parent and the primary caregiver himself. They are the strongest advocates we've got.

Kelly Berry (39:57)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (40:23)
But it's not until more primary caregivers get into the role of leadership that we start really breaking down some of the walls that are permeating and perpetuating some of these things you're talking about.

Kelly Berry (40:38)
Yeah, yep, I can totally see that. Okay, number three, I know you'll have something to say about this, because I've heard you talk about this one as well. So the next one is I need to sacrifice to succeed. So people feel like they have to engage beyond their scope of work to the point that they're not paying attention to like what their bodies are telling them, what their stress levels telling them, what their relationships are telling them.

Courtney Cecil (40:42)
I know you'll have something to say about

The next one is I need to.

Kelly Berry (41:02)
You know, it looks like a lot of different things for a lot of people, but essentially it's like, my job is not enough. I have to do more than just what I'm responsible for.

Courtney Cecil (41:12)
Yes, and it's like being in an abusive relationship that is very much a problem, particularly for women, because we feel it goes back to that perfectionism thing. We feel like we have to be 100 % at our best all the time in order to be seen and be recognized. And I will say, you know, if we're going to be honest, there are times that in order to get that exceeds expectation and performance reviews.

or in order to get the promotion, your year is gonna look different and maybe that year's a sacrifice. But for that to be the norm, that is unhealthy and unsustainable. And that is absolutely where I was. My boss, was the CEO, ironically, the last one I reported to, always gave me feedback in my performance review. He said, Courtney, you need to learn how to turn down your volume dial. Like, your knob is turned all the way up. Like, how do you get it somewhere in the middle?

Kelly Berry (41:46)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (42:05)
So you're still doing a job well enough that it's protecting your brand and will continue to allow and present you some of the big opportunities you've gotten. But to have your volume dial up all the time, something's not working, something's broken. And I have found that part, like a lot of that looks like inefficient work. It looks like boundary problems. It looks like negotiation. A lot of women don't know how to negotiate.

about their work boundaries. So I always tell people like the simplest, simplest, simplest thing you can do is tell your manager like, look, I've got these two things on my plate. I only have enough capacity to do one of them. Which one of them is important to you, you get to choose, you get to choose out of these two things, which gets done. But there's only one of them is going to get done. Because so often, our bosses will come to us and just ask us to do more and do more and do more. And guess what?

the more that we're asked and the more we take on, the more you're gonna get. It's like the gift that keeps on giving. So you have to start putting up your, like you have the agency to put up your boundaries. You have the capability of having those conversations with your manager to say, listen, this cup is overflowing, something's gotta give in order to get things to get done. But often as women, we don't have those conversations. It's like having.

Kelly Berry (43:05)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (43:28)
what I just talked about, my direct report with significantly less experience than me making materially more money. It was completely within my realm of responsibility to have that conversation with both HR and with my boss who knew about it to say, hold up a tick, something's not right here. And I didn't know, thankfully this gentleman is, I'm good friends with now. So I do know what that magic number was and 62 was a lot of freaking money.

Kelly Berry (43:55)
Yeah.

Courtney Cecil (43:57)
At the time, I didn't realize what it was, but I also just underappreciated that that was my problem to solve for as much as it was theirs. I never once said, hold on, like, something's not right here. We need to talk about what you just said and figure out how we can make this more equitable. I never did that. So I think it is our part of what I teach the woman I work with is how to find the language.

Kelly Berry (44:08)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (44:25)
to actually put something back on our manager so it doesn't become their problem. Because as much as they're willing for the organization to take advantage of them, the org's gonna take care of them. They'll take absolute advantage of you. it's bit of an accountability challenge that we have that people are just used to taking advantage of women because we don't speak up for ourselves. When we do, it's, well, she's a bitch, or know, like.

Kelly Berry (44:35)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (44:49)
it must be the time of the month or whatever. Like all of these really unfortunate and unfair narratives when in fact that's not the problem at all. We're just finding our voice in the same way that men have their entire lives.

Kelly Berry (45:03)
Yeah, yeah, that's negotiation is something that's come up on here before. I think it's super and definitely a skill that all women could work on, whether it's, you know, in this scenario negotiating for a higher salary, you mentioned negotiating boundaries, even like.

Courtney Cecil (45:14)
that all women can work on, whether it's, you in this...

Kelly Berry (45:25)
Being able to clearly set and hold expectations. There's a lot of things that I think that we have just felt like if we do it, we will come off in a way that we don't want to come off in that way. And so we've just said yes when we shouldn't and suffered for it, really. Yeah. Okay, the next one is I need to do it alone. So women really just head down.

Courtney Cecil (45:36)
Mm-hmm.

Yep, exactly.

Kelly Berry (45:49)
focused on the prize, not taking time to build community mentors, advisors. So then when they get where they have always wanted to go, they look around and they're like, crap, I don't have anyone here. know, basically I've, I've felt like I couldn't.

I couldn't use anybody to get here or I wouldn't have legitimately gotten here.

Courtney Cecil (46:11)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Another like all of these Kelly, please please please send me this article after we finish like I can't wait to read it, but that's another one that's absolutely a problem and in fact, it's so much a problem that it that's what shows up in their home life So one of the things that I help women one of the big solutions that I help women with is learning how to delegate at home because we're just used to taking on so much and more and more and more and

Kelly Berry (46:16)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (46:40)
are inherently selfless. I don't care if you were just a birth mother and then gave the baby up for adoption, you just carried a child for nine months. There's something even from the very beginning inherently selfless about moms. But yet that selflessness tends to continue to be the same thing that makes us drown. So teaching women and helping them figure out how to break the cycle of

the solitude type of work or the warrior. It's almost like you have to be everybody's savior. No, you don't. You're responsible for yourself. And that's it. You're not even so often as our kids grow up, we also have tendencies to still continue to try to be their savior. And that's not our job. Our job is to raise them to be highly functioning contributors to society. It's to be able to teach them how to vacuum instead of feeling like we always have to be the one that vacuums ourselves, you know, or whatever, to fold their clothes or whatever it may be. So

Kelly Berry (47:32)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (47:35)
One of the things that I work a lot with my clients on is learning how to delegate at home, whether that be to your kids, to your partner, or outside the house. I'm a huge believer in a house manager. It has truly saved my sanity. I teach women how to, how do you hire a house manager for cheap? Where do you find them? What questions do you need to enter ask in the interview? What flags do you need to look out for? How do you find somebody that's going to stick with you?

going to show up every day for years to make your life easier and what type of stuff do get rid of? And by learning the way that they need to work with other people, the way that they need to delegate to a man specifically, by learning to get comfortable with getting rid of things as opposed to always having control, those are the type of skill sets that will help you show up differently at work. My mom told me once, I think was last Easter, she's like,

gosh, you have no problems delegating. I was like, I know. like, she kind of meant it as a little bit of a, because I had a lot of people, there were a lot of people there. I was hosting 18 people. I was like, hey, can you do this? Can you do that? Can you do that? And that's something she would have never done. But that is years worth of muscle building to get there to one, I have to now. Leverage is the only way I can do my job. I have to learn to leverage down at work. But it is,

Kelly Berry (48:34)
Hehehehehe

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (48:59)
through by applying that notion, that idea, that concept to my home life that I've been able to do more to continue growing my career and to continue to get like low hanging items off my plate that aren't my highest and best use. But a lot of that too goes back to perfectionism and control. So, so many women in addition to being selfless, the reason they do it is because it goes back to the perfectionism thing. You know that you can trust yourself to do a good job.

And the more that you let go of control, your state of control expands, the more you're not sure what that quality is gonna look like. But that is also like, that's a manager skill, that's a teaching and coaching skill that's also equally as important to apply to your home life. And the way that you raise kids, the way that you like, I, my house manager says to me every day, including today, she's like, I don't know what I would do without this job because I learned so much from you.

based on how you do life and the indirect coaching you're giving me when you're giving me feedback. Well, yeah, that's a learning. It's like the whole thing's cyclical when it works well, and that's why it's a system. That's why both my podcast and my program are called the Life Management System, because they all hang together to help you be at your best self.

Kelly Berry (50:03)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. That's really good. And I think that, you know, they're all going to sum up in this fifth one and basically like your whole entire mission. But basically women have been led to believe that success means having it all. Where women feel like they have lost all sense of balance, that we have to be able to work and do all the things. Like we can't outsource because then we're not doing it all.

Courtney Cecil (50:18)
think that, you know, they're all gonna sum up in this.

Kelly Berry (50:38)
You know, we're doing childcare, house care, house management, all of the things. And success means being able to do all of the things, do them all well, and make it look like you're not doing any of

Courtney Cecil (50:52)
Yeah, yes, you're exactly right. This is the very thing that I help women with. But I do believe more often than people realize you can quote unquote have it all. The problem is people tend to inflate having it all with doing it all. And those aren't the same things. Because having it all means you're clear on your priorities. I have like talking about me as an individual,

Kelly Berry (51:08)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (51:16)
I have a, I'm sitting in executive role in the Fortune 50. I have my own business. I have my own podcast and newsletter. I am writing, by the way, I'm also writing a children's book that I've been working on publishing for the past two years that hits the shelves this summer. I have two kids. I never ever miss a game of theirs. I traveled one to two times a month. I am very close to my friends and all of them would say that I'm probably the more than any of their other friends, the one that's always reaching out saying,

let's get together and actually initiating scheduling. I have a very full life. So in my mind, I get to do it all. Or I get to have it all, should say, but I don't do it all. I'm not the one enabling all of this stuff in the periphery. And that's what having a good life management system looks like, where your life is working for you, as opposed to you being a slave to doing having to do all the things yourself. So you get to concentrate more on the things that bring you joy.

Kelly Berry (51:54)
Yeah.

Courtney Cecil (52:12)
and being present in the moment with them, as opposed to constantly feeling like you were on this rat race of having to check off your to-do list where your to-do list becomes what manages your life instead of you managing your life.

Kelly Berry (52:24)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yep. I think that sums it all up perfectly. Like, having it all doesn't mean doing it all. Yeah, I love that. This has been awesome, Courtney. So much good stuff in there. I love the B- life. I love the outsourcing. I know there's takeaways for everybody. And what I want is for people to be able to find you. So can you...

Courtney Cecil (52:33)
Yep.

Kelly Berry (52:49)
Tell everyone where can they find you, where can they listen to your podcast, what do you have going on, all of the things.

Courtney Cecil (52:54)
I would

love that. So let's start with a podcast. It's called The Life Management System. I have designed it to be short snack sized, like get in, get out. They're between eight to 18 minutes. And we try to go really deep on one topic to where you're able to get a couple tactical lessons that you can apply, triumph for size, that sort of thing. the Life Management System is on Apple and Spotify and Amazon Music and iHeart.

I Heart Radio and YouTube, so you can get that there. I'm also incredibly active in the DMs on Instagram. You can find me at Working Moms Movement. You can also look me up on Facebook if you prefer that forum. Look me up on LinkedIn, Courtney Cecil Anderson. can find me there. And last but not least, if you are a parent of a rising kindergartner, my book Hits the Shelves.

This summer, so if anytime after May, you will be able to pre-order that. It is my love note to parents everywhere that are seeing their kids go off to school because so often while I knew the first day of school, particularly the first day of kindergarten is a bit of a tired topic in the book category, those books are more very much written for the kid.

And while this children's book is called Wally's First Day of School. So Wally, I have two, I three W's actually, Witten, Wyant, and Wynn, Wynn the dog. So while my book character naturally had to be a W, but it's Wally's First Day of School. And while this is intended to be, as a book intended to be read to children, more than anything, it is written for you as a parent. It is to help give you words. And a very, from coming from a,

Kelly Berry (54:15)
Hehehehe

Courtney Cecil (54:33)
a very high EQ person that's helping give you the words of what it is that you wish and you hope and you pray for your kid as they go through the next 13 years of school and giving you words probably to some of what you're processing. So that way you can be in the moment with them and really experience from your runs what it is you're experiencing and just.

let you be in those emotions. look for that here in a couple months as well.

Kelly Berry (55:02)
That's awesome. A children's book is on my list too. It was on my goal list last year. I didn't get it done. But I think, you know, the way that you describe it, like a love note, you know, I think that changing the world happened through children. And I think that that's amazing that you're doing that. So.

Courtney Cecil (55:17)
I love

that you said that Kelly. love that quote, changing the world happens to children. Yeah, is writing a children's book has been humbling. It was a lot harder than I expected. The publishing process is incredibly long. am out, it'll be two years just publishing and then it was, you know, not to mention the six months of writing and rewriting and getting feedback and that sort of thing before.

Kelly Berry (55:24)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm

Mm-hmm.

Courtney Cecil (55:43)
even going to query publishers. So it's been a humbling process, but we're almost there.

Kelly Berry (55:47)
Yeah.

Well, congratulations. That's awesome. And follow Courtney so you can be notified when that happens and you can get a book. Amazing. Great. Well, thank you so much for being here, sharing your time, your talents and your wisdom with all of us. I know it's going to be super helpful. And she did mention that she's on social and her podcast. She does give extremely tactical information. Everything, her newsletter, everything has something that you can actually like take.

Courtney Cecil (55:51)
Thank

Yeah. Yes.

Thank you so much for being here.

Kelly Berry (56:16)
and try or take and implement and see if it works for you. So I would encourage you to find her and her.

Courtney Cecil (56:23)
Thank you so much for having me, Kelly.

Kelly Berry (56:25)
Thank you and we

will talk soon. Thanks for being here. Bye.

Kelly Berry (56:30)
Thanks for listening to Life Intended.

Sadie Wackett (56:34)
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Kelly Berry (56:46)
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Sadie Wackett (56:54)
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Kelly Berry (56:57)
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