Flight Lessons in Leadership

Join guest host Aaron Prather and Capt. Barbara Bell, U.S. Navy (Ret.), as she shares her remarkable journey — from entering the U.S. Naval Academy to serving as a Naval Aviator and Flight Test Officer, and now shaping the next generation as a professor of Leadership and Ethics at the Naval Academy. 

Together, they explore the lessons learned in the cockpit and the classroom, and how navigating turbulence — both in flight and in life — can inspire stronger, more resilient leaders.

Transcript

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Aaron Prather (00:06):

Welcome to the following Sea podcast. This is Aaron Prather, your guest host for today. The following Sea podcast presents amazing guests that have worked for the Navy, from scientists and engineers to military heroes. We look at cool science engineering and standards and how those help the operations of the Navy across the globe. From the seabed to space and how you can get involved on today's show, we welcome Captain Barbara Bell, US Navy retired. She's an inspirational speaker, author and leader who empowers the next generation of leaders at the US Navy Academy. She currently is teaching leadership in ethics at Annapolis, and today we welcome her to the show to hear her story and how she went from Annapolis back to Annapolis. Welcome to the show, captain Bell.

Capt. Barbara Bell (00:49):

Hey Aaron, it is nice to be here this morning.

Aaron Prather (00:52):

Let's start with your journey to the Naval Academy because you are a Midwestern kid. I was a Midwestern kid and it's always interesting of how Midwestern kids always seem to gravitate to the Navy. <laugh>. My daughter <laugh>, wanted to go to into the Navy, following your aunt into the Navy. And I just wanna know your journey from Michigan to Annapolis.

Capt. Barbara Bell (01:14):

Yep. I grew up in small town Michigan, traverse City, Michigan. I was surrounded by a lot of water, the Great Lakes and uh, multitude of lakes in and around Michigan. So the way I got started, I have to give a nod to my parents. They taught their three children that we were all going to college and we needed to find a way to get there 'cause there wasn't money at home to go to the types of schools that we wanted to go to. My older brother, Dan, he was encouraged by his high school football coach to check out the Air Force Academy, and Dan ultimately went there and the changing moment for me was his parents' weekend. I went out to Colorado Springs and I saw all the opportunity that he had and I knew I was gonna settle for nothing less. So what I say is I settled for more and I settled for the US Naval Academy. It was similar in terms of challenge and opportunity. I wasn't gonna be Dan's little sister out at Air Force Academy. And when I saw Annapolis, I knew that it was the right place for me.

Aaron Prather (02:17):

That's amazing. I just think that's just such a interesting way of what brought you into it. But the whole thing is is when you got to Annapolis, you were part of a class, it was only 6% female. I mean, what was that like?

Capt. Barbara Bell (02:32):

I was in the fourth class of women to go to the US Naval Academy and I credit President Gerald R. Ford from Michigan for opening up the service academies to women. Yes, we represented 6% of the student body and you know, we were there to make change. The law said we could be there, but a lot of our initial experience was telling us otherwise. But what we did is that, uh, you know, we picked ourselves up, we put one foot in front of the other, we often fell and we picked ourselves up again and again and again. And we were there for ourselves, but we were there for something far bigger than us.

Aaron Prather (03:06):

Amazing. So by the time you graduated, how many females had gone through the academy? Less than a hundred still?

Capt. Barbara Bell (03:12):

No, let's see. So in the, by the time I graduated there, let's see, probably with my class about 250 women.

Aaron Prather (03:21):

Wow, okay. And so you get your degree and for our audience members, your your degree was in

Capt. Barbara Bell (03:28):

Systems engineering. So I was in the first robotics class, uh, at the Naval Academy. So my hat's off to you.

Aaron Prather (03:35):

Someone always has to go first.

Capt. Barbara Bell (03:36):

Someone's got it. Yep.

Aaron Prather (03:38):

So now you get your degree and now you're gonna go do some one of the coolest things and where's your next step? Past Annapolis?

Capt. Barbara Bell (03:46):

So my, my next step was flight school. I didn't have 2020 vision, so I became a naval flight officer, went down to Pensacola, Florida and started my next adventure there.

Aaron Prather (03:56):

Okay. And this is where it gets really cool because you become a test pilot in time, and this is where I geeked out as I was reading your book, <laugh>, and we're gonna talk about your book here in a little bit, is you have flown over 30 different types of aircraft.

Capt. Barbara Bell (04:13):

Yes.

Aaron Prather (04:14):

And that is just mind boggling because I mean, as I said, I have a sister in the Navy and she's actually been a aviator as well. And just the amount of aircraft the US Navy have and knowing that you have flown over 30 aircraft types.

Capt. Barbara Bell (04:31):

Yeah. It's not just the Navy, Navy, army, air Force, our allies. I've flown a lot of their aircraft as well. So it was for me, I met, uh, you know, importance of role models is just critical. That is one of my themes. And when I was at the Naval Academy, I met the first woman, Lieutenant Colleen neas to go to Navy test pilot school. And I hung on her every word. She told me how to get there and I listened to each of those four pieces of advice. The first one was graduate, the top of your flight school class. Second was get a thousand hours of flight time. The third was get all your quals as soon as you can. And then the fourth was tell every commanding officer that you have that that's what you wanna do. And I could apply that to any career, do your absolute best, get that experience, whatever a thousand hours might mean for you in your career field, get all those extra quals and then tell people what you wanna do next. So that led me to Navy test pilot school. So I armed with my engineering degree, went to TPS and I got to fly with the best of the best. It was a game changer for me.

Aaron Prather (05:38):

I'm just fascinated. I mean, just how you get there and I think those four points are, are really critical.

Capt. Barbara Bell (05:43):

Really critical.

Aaron Prather (05:45):

And really, I mean, if you guys did just not hear that on the podcast, rewind it right now and hear those again. And Captain Bell, do you wanna say those four real quick again?

Capt. Barbara Bell (05:53):

Graduate at the top of your flight school class, get a thousand hours of flight time, get as many quals as you can possibly get and tell all your commanding officers that that's what you wanna do. Because when it's time to apply, you're gonna ask for letters or recommendation.

Aaron Prather (06:08):

Okay. And let's talk about that last one. I I think that one's a real critical one. Uh, actually telling your leadership what you want and pursuing that. And I think this leads into your next, as you exit test school, you go on to do something that me as an eighties kid, just like, oh yes, this is amazing. And that step was to what aircraft?

Capt. Barbara Bell (06:32):

Oh, I got to fly f fourteens.

Aaron Prather (06:34):

So you were maverick.

Capt. Barbara Bell (06:35):

Uh, I was actually Goose, I was goose. Oh, you were goose the top gun. Yes.

Aaron Prather (06:39):

Okay.

Capt. Barbara Bell (06:39):

Okay. Maybe I was goose the top gun, but it was, it was great. So the chief test pilot of the squadron, I was going to major dick er is a Marine, and he said, well, what do you want? Your, my first aircraft was going to be an electronic warfare aircraft, the EA six B, which is um, yeah. Which which is my field electronic warfare. And he said, well, what do you want the second to be? It was the top gun era. And I said, took about a nanosecond to reply. And I said, F fourteens. And he said, if you think you can hack it, I'll get you a class date. So of course he thought I could hack it.

Aaron Prather (07:10):

And again, going back to your four points, I mean, you're hitting that fourth one again,

Capt. Barbara Bell (07:15):

Tell people what you want.

Aaron Prather (07:17):

That is such an amazing lesson. And I think a lot of folks miss out on that of, unless you tell people what you want, they're not never gonna know.

Capt. Barbara Bell (07:25):

They are willing to help.

Aaron Prather (07:27):

And so taking that lesson even further, you talk about leadership and all that, how do you apply that lesson both directions of you wanting to talk to your leaders up, saying, this is what I'd like, but then being that leader, hearing that from the subordinates. 'cause now you're in that unique position because you came up and now you're that leader.

Capt. Barbara Bell (07:48):

Yes, I am that leader. I have guided numerous people throughout the years, uh, to test pilot school and onto other opportunities, you know, in their careers. You know, what comes to mind is a, a gentleman who worked for me, he was a prior enlisted sailor and he was a GS 14 had done really well. And I asked him, so Tom, uh, do you, are you gonna finish your degree? And he thought, that's not that important. I said, oh, absolutely it is. You need to get your degree in order to advance. I knew he wanted to advance, but he was reluctant to get his degree. I said, if you look at your smart transcripts from the US Navy, I said, you'll find out. I said, I will bet you a beer that you have at least an associate's degree. About a week or so later, he came back to me and he said, I owe you two beers. I have more than an associate's degree. He got going, he got his degree. I ran into him several years later, he had been promoted to GS 15. And not only that, he said, my son went back to college.

Aaron Prather (08:48):

That story touches not just him, but the next generation.

Capt. Barbara Bell (08:52):

That's what I'm about.

Aaron Prather (08:53):

Yeah. And I think that really shows the power of leadership saying, not only do I believe in you, I believe on in every, even the ones I don't even see like his son.

Capt. Barbara Bell (09:04):

Right.

Aaron Prather (09:05):

And I think that's a really amazing story to take from, from this conversation is you don't know as a leader who else you're impacting. And I think that's, that's a really strong, powerful statement on that. Just for our listeners, we, we are holding the Captain Bell up from going to class to actually teach some students here in a little bit and we're gonna talk about that is before she runs off to that. But I mean, I think this journey you've been on and the lessons you've taken and now applying that, what would your recommendation be for those folks that are starting that journey and wanna become a leader like you? And besides the four points that you've already given is, what else do you recommend for those folks that wanna become those leaders in the future?

Capt. Barbara Bell (09:50):

Ask a lot of questions. Ask a lot of questions. What I have found is the more questions I ask, the luckier I get. And what I mean by that is, you know, maybe you're this emerging leader, you're not exactly sure where you wanna go. So set up coffee with a bunch of different, uh, leaders and say, Hey, why do you do what you do? And could you possibly see me in that role?

Aaron Prather (10:12):

So it's putting in the work, putting in the time, you

Capt. Barbara Bell (10:15):

Gotta put in the work,

Aaron Prather (10:17):

Ask those questions, and you agree that there are no dumb questions,

Capt. Barbara Bell (10:22):

There are no dumb questions. And for leaders as well, ask your team members questions too. Like, where do you wanna go next? I had a wing commander and he came into the squadron. He says, where do you wanna go next? I said, I wanna go to test pilot school. And he said, well, what if that doesn't work out well, that's what I want. And he said, I'd like to connect you with someone. And so he connected me with, uh, his name was Commander Don Folk and he was working for Naval Air Systems command. And I talked with him and he said, I would love to have you in my office. I ended up working with him many years later, uh, after test pilot school and after a follow several follow on tours, but reaching out and then reaching down and pulling people up, that's critically important. So he asked me questions, I asked him questions, and you gain a lot of knowledge that way.

Aaron Prather (11:09):

Amazing. Okay. So there is a book. Okay. And I, I've actually, uh, read it and I think you touch on a lot of these subjects. So for our listeners that wanna get more beyond this podcast, let's talk about your book Flight Lessons and what a reader could probably expect from that book. Where else are you gonna go in that book?

Capt. Barbara Bell (11:32):

Yes. So the full title is Flight Lessons, navigating Through Life's Turbulence and Learning to Fly High. Uh, in that, I, I break it up into three different sections. Flight lessons are really leadership lessons and the first part is gritting it out. I had to do a lot of gritting it out at the US Naval Academy, you know, in the fourth class of women I a lot about grit and persistence and it served me tremendously well throughout my professional life, I'd say, and my personal life as well. Then you, you've gritted it out, then you get to a point where you think, I've got it all figured out. You got some turbulence to navigate. And then the the third part is earning your wings and earning your wings could be literally earning your wings. It could be metaphorically earning your wings, you know, getting, being qualified, becoming that expert and what that feels like and learning to claim that.

Aaron Prather (12:26):

Excellent. I mean, again, grit. I I I mean yes, 6% female of your class. I mean that, that, that is amazing achievement and overcoming, but I think the grit, the overcoming those challenges, but exactly what it led to in your life. I mean, I mean, I think that this is just an amazing story and I highly recommend to our listeners pick up the book. It's a great read. It really does. I mean, I, I got really jacked in numerous sections of the book, <laugh>. It is a great read and so I highly recommend it. Uh, I, I believe it's for sale anywhere you can buy books.

Capt. Barbara Bell (13:01):

It is for sale on Amazon, uh, books a million, uh, Barnes and Noble. You can go to my website and get all those details. So you can go to my website@captainbarbarabell.com.

Aaron Prather (13:13):

Okay, so now that we got the book plugged, I wanna make sure we're gonna, like, let's close out on, you're about to go teach some students.

Capt. Barbara Bell (13:22):

Yes. Yeah. Yes. So it has been a full circle journey. I am back at the US Naval Academy. I teach ethics and leadership. I've been doing, this is my fifth semester now, and I'll walk into a classroom of students. Uh, I've got about an hour before I, I do that. So it's a, it's a real pleasure to come back. I look at these students and sometimes it feels like I am not that far distant from them. And other days it feels like there's, uh, quite a bit of distance.

Aaron Prather (13:53):

As you say, you're still connected those students, 'cause you were in those seats.

Capt. Barbara Bell (13:58):

I was in those seats. I was exhausted just like they are, you know, I had that tendency towards cynicism that many midshipmen can have. But, uh, it's usually because they're so, they're, they're tired and they have been pushed beyond what they perceived as their own limits.

Aaron Prather (14:16):

I can totally relate to that as again, having a sister in the Navy, she is told me this, those same stories. What though has changed? Is there certain things that have changed with the new generations? You talked about you're gonna teach ethics. What are some of the things that might have changed over time that are just new parts of the story, but the core of the leadership, the core of the ethics are still there, but something has changed.

Capt. Barbara Bell (14:42):

The mission of the Naval Academy is to develop leaders morally, mentally, and physically. That's the short version of it. And so we're focusing on the, the moral. As a young student, you might think, oh, just it's easy to do the right thing. These students live in a world that's far more complex than the one that I lived in when I was, you know, 18 to 22 years old. So we help them, uh, in a multitude of ways in that's ethics class. So we look at moral perception, that's the, the part that we are in right now. Then we look at moral deliberation. How do you deliberate, well, how do you rely on some of those great philosophers, uh, from, you know, generations, uh, and generations ago? What did they have to say and how can we bring that forward? Then we spent a a lot of time on character.

(15:31):

What does it mean to build your moral foundation and reinforce it? You want to be a person of character, but what does that mean? And those three building blocks lead us to just war theory. 'cause these midshipmen are going to commission into conflict. We know that the world is, uh, a challenging place right now and we're going to develop these students. So when they commission as uh, officers in the US Navy or the US Marine Corps, they are ready to do the right thing in the most difficult of situations. They know how to deliberate, they know how to communicate with one another and check one another. That's one of the things that I do in class. I provide a warning at the very beginning of the semester that this is gonna be a highly interactive class that we're gonna learn 19 to 19 instead of one to 18.

Aaron Prather (16:26):

And I'm guessing that unlike being the fourth class of women to the Naval Academy in your class today, what's the mix gonna be between male and female?

Capt. Barbara Bell (16:36):

There are now about 30% women at the US Naval Academy. I would say it's a, it's been a great tipping point. More and more opportunities have been opened up to women. I went to Capitol Hill in the, uh, 19 91, 92 to work to repeal the combat exclusion laws that opened up combat aircraft as well as combatant ships to women. And that paved the way for opening more opportunities for women.

Aaron Prather (17:00):

Yeah. And I really do wanna close on this topic now that that work is underway and is very much changing the dynamic of the military. How has that changed the mindset of the rank and file, but also what attributes are these female warriors bringing to the leadership equation?

Capt. Barbara Bell (17:17):

Well, first of all, we wanna be seen as war fighters. First, not as female naval officers. I am retired now, I'm captain. US Navy retired. And women want to be seen as war fighters first, not as women war fighters. And I think that narrative has changed over the years, yet there's part of living in the tension is what I call it. Where we are definitely role models and what we do affects others and how they perceive women as war fighters or women as military. So there's always that consciousness of living in that tension. Wanna be seen as naval officers first and women second,

Aaron Prather (18:00):

Just be a leader.

Capt. Barbara Bell (18:01):

Yes, I was a naval officer, not a female naval officer.

Aaron Prather (18:06):

This has been an amazing conversation. I think we could just go on and on.

Capt. Barbara Bell (18:09):

We could, we could.

Aaron Prather (18:11):

And again, to our listeners, I really highly recommend picking up Captain Bell's book. It is a great read. And again, let's go through those four qualities again,

Capt. Barbara Bell (18:20):

Four things, again, graduate at the top of your flight school class. Get a thousand hours of flight time. Get that experience, get all those additional quals as soon as you can. And then tell your commanding officer, tell your leadership what it is that you wanna do and ask them for a letter of recommendation.

Aaron Prather (18:37):

Be the best. Put in the time and ask the questions.

Capt. Barbara Bell (18:41):

Ask for their help. 'cause there are many leaders that are so willing to help give people a hand up, not a handout, but a hand up.

Aaron Prather (18:50):

Captain Bell, thank you for your time today. Thank you again for everything you're doing. Your story is so inspiring and thank you for continuing the work.

Capt. Barbara Bell (18:59):

Absolutely. You know, if I, I say my bottom line is what I've learned over time is that I was never going to fit in. So I chose to stand out. And that's my guidance to others. You will always find yourself in some place where you feel like you don't fit in. So choose to stand out.

Aaron Prather (19:15):

Stand out.

Capt. Barbara Bell (19:16):

Thank you so much, Aaron.

Aaron Prather (19:18):

Thank you Captain Bell.