How A Homebrewer Sold To Molson, Bought Back In, And Bet On Better Canners

A homebrewer chases a Boston lager in his basement and ends up selling a Detroit brewery to Molson Coors weeks before the world shuts down. From there, the story only gets wilder: Mark Reith buys back into Michigan beer with Lansing Brewing Company, revives a century‑old brand, and builds a portfolio that spans lagers, ciders, spirits, and award‑winning non‑alcoholic craft beer. Along the way he discovers the quiet variable that decides a beer’s future on the shelf—dissolved oxygen—and why packaging technology can be the difference between stale in two weeks or bright for months.

We sit down with Mark and Microcanner’s founder, Todd Vriesinga, to connect the dots between passion and process. Mark walks us through the Atwater pivots, the breakout hit Dirty Blonde, and the decision to lean into cans with a smaller footprint and a smarter line. Todd opens his shop doors for a rare tour of the machines behind the machines—CNC precision, a bullet‑fast waterjet, and a team that prototypes same‑day. When supply chains buckled, Microcanner stocked PLCs and motors early, shifted to remote training, and literally flew themselves to customers to keep breweries alive. That mix of foresight and grit reinforces a theme that runs through every segment: quality scales when the details are right.

We also zoom out. The market is changing, not shrinking. RTDs, THC sodas, and NA beer are rising; lagers are having a moment again; and smart brands are building portfolios that flex. Mark keeps LBC rooted in Michigan with MSU Athletics partnerships while using shared infrastructure to take select labels national. Todd keeps Microcanner privately held and relentlessly practical, focusing on low DO, reliable fills, and can‑format versatility that actually pays off at retail.

If you care about craft beer, canning tech, and the decisions that keep small businesses alive, this story hits every note: strategy, engineering, and the human side of work that doesn’t quit. Hit follow, share this with a friend who loves craft beverages, and leave a review to tell us what surprised you most.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Setting The Flight Plan
• 1:36 Mark’s Origin Story And Atwater
• 3:12 Early Pivots And Dirty Blonde
• 5:20 Surviving Downturns And Taproom Shift
• 7:10 Sale To Molson Coors And Transition
• 8:50 Fuel Beverage And NA Expansion
• 11:10 Old Head, Co‑Packing, And Ireland
• 12:40 Why Microcanner And Cans Matter
• 14:30 Shelf Life, DO, And Tech Advantages
• 16:10 LBC Revival And MSU Partnerships
• 18:20 Velvet Peanut Butter Porter Plans
• 19:40 Five‑Year Vision And Brand Strategy
• 22:00 RTDs, THC, And Market Headwinds
• 24:20 Grit Over Hype And Ownership
• 26:20 Advice, Working Capital, And Grit
• 27:55 Microcanner Shop Tour Begins
• 29:40 Tooling, CNC, And Precision
• 31:20 Waterjet Power And Safety
• 33:00 From Design Firm To Manufacturing
• 35:30 Early Installs And Barn Builds
• 38:20 Scaling, Travel, And COVID Pivot
• 41:10 Supply Chain Bet And Team Culture
• 44:20 Founder Backstory And Work Ethic
• 48:10 Product Evolution And Flip Rinser
• 50:30 Diversification Wins And Misses
• 52:30 New Bets: Tugs And Pasteurization
• 54:20 Canning Every Format That Matters
• 56:10 Jobs, Tax Incentives, And Made‑In‑USA

Transcript

Eldon Palmer: 0:00

Today we're flying into Michigan's craft beer story from the inside. We're heading to Lance to sit down with Mark Reith, owner of Lanceon Brewing Company, and we get a behind-the-scenes look at the microcanner in action before we fly back and take a tour of the microcanner facility itself. And then we wrap up with the story of Todd Briesinga, the man who built it. Welcome back, guys. Today we're here with Mark Reith and Todd Briesinga. Is the owner of Lancium Brewing Company and Todd Briesinga with Microcanner. We're gonna have some conversations about uh the business, how they got started, and a little bit of your history. Uh, before we get started, though, I do have a real quick little gift for you from Grand Rapids. I really appreciate you taking your time. Um so we have uh little Herman's boy. So you seem to be somebody that likes local stuff. This is local for Ferraria, Grand Rapids, my favorite coffee shop. Um, they do some other things. Great breakfast shop as well, and breakfast and a little bit of everything. So if you're ever in Rockford, you gotta stop by. Um, and then some coffee. That's the Pantling Brend, um, wh ich is a downtown hotel. Um, it's famous. It's one of their like long-term famous yeah, it's the Amway hotel. Oh, yeah, sure.

Mark Rieth: 1:09

Awesome. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Eldon Palmer: 1:10

You're welcome. I appreciate your time as well. Thank you. In the flight over, got you a little something pretty similar.

Speaker 1: 1:17

Very nice.

Speaker 4: 1:18

Actually, I gav e you the wrong one, so I'm gonna say that.

Todd Vriesenga: 1:20

My daughter's go nna make my daughter's gonna steal all this stuff from me. Oh, absolutely. It's uh Herman's boy is uh whenever she's in town. Yeah, we have to go there. That's great. Love it.

Speaker: 1:30

Thank you very much.

Eldon Palmer: 1:31

Yeah, you're welcome. So let's get started. Mark, um, I understand. Let's tell me your little bit of your backstory. Like, how'd you get started into the brewing business?

Mark Rieth: 1:42

Oh boy, it goes back to uh my early days when I was homebrewing. Uh I was living in Boston in uh late 80s, early 90s, and um had a passion for making my own beer because of Sam Adams, one of the first entrants into the craft beer scene, as we know. And so I wanted to make uh the Boston lager in in my basement as best I could. I think I did a pretty good job. Yeah, I drank the beer. So uh, and so that's kind of where the passion started. And then uh I moved back to Detroit in uh 1997. That was the year that Atwater Brewery opened up in downtown Detroit. And I wanted to start a business in the city, be part of the rebirth of what's going on in Detroit. Uh walked into Atwater and I'm like, I want to be in the beer business. So uh that's kind of where it started. Uh and I invested in 2005 uh and then bought it out, or excuse me, 2002 and then bought it out in 05. Okay, and then I went home and told my wife with three young kids that I bought a brewery and quit my job. So that went over great. But she doesn't even drink beer.

Speaker 4: 2:48

So that was what's she think no w about that?

Speaker: 2:51

Well, she's okay now.

Speaker 4: 2:52

Okay, yeah. Good. So what happened? Well, tell me some other story. Like, what was some of the early things you struggle with at um at Atwater, like with the growth?

Speaker: 3:02

Yeah, I mean the the early days were were uh like anything. You know, at that point we were the I think the fourth or fifth brewery in Michigan. So uh early on in the whole craft beer world, so we had to kind of find our way, concentrate on the tap room. You know, uh we started out with German-style lagers, which was very unique to us. That's all I wanted to make were these great German-style lagers. Yeah, but then you know, Bells and founders started hitting the road with their IPAs, and I'm like, I think I can need a shift, maybe make beer for what people want to buy and not just what I want to drink. So that was a big shift. So um we came out with some other options, and then our big one was uh was Dirty Blonde. So, you know, we came out with that because uh we made a great half of ice and a German wheat, but we wanted to do something a little bit different, and something that wasn't already in the market in Michigan, and uh so that was kind of our big turning point is when we came out with that product, and that ended up being 68% of our overall sales. Oh wow, yeah. So the the ear and then you know, everything else about running a small business, you know, CapEx, not having enough working capital, all those things were very true, and uh you just grinded it out until you hit your stride.

Speaker 4: 4:20

So, do you rely on a lot of people around you? Do you have a good partner? Um, what how did you kind of work through some of that stuff? Is there a mindset that you kind of well and so I never brought out a partner?

Speaker: 4:31

So it was uh uh and and I'm glad I never did in in at the later stage of Atwater in the ear in the beginning stages. I would have loved to brought on a partner, but it was it was just not the right timing. Uh the financials weren't where I needed it to be. Um, and then then you went through 08 to 2010 with Detroit going to bankruptcy and the economy going into the toilet. So we had to shift and we actually shut our tab house tab room down.

Speaker 4: 4:57

Oh, really?

Speaker: 4:57

And then we just brought in uh beer garden tables into the production area and just serve beer in there and open up the overhead doors, and people actually loved that.

Speaker 4: 5:07

Yeah.

Speaker: 5:08

Um, so that was kind of a unique deal. We shut that down for five years and then reopened that up in 2015 when things started coming back. And so that 2015 to 2020 range, that five-year stretch was huge for for craft beer, Michigan craft beer, and and that's when we started having conversations at the later part of 2018 and 2019 with um also courses to to have them buy us.

Speaker 4: 5:32

Nice. So did you have uh have you maintained your employees, uh, any of the same employees through that period? Did you have to um shorten up when you kind of downsized there with the tap room and that? Like what's your um process for kind of handling that?

Speaker: 5:48

Yeah, the tap house was a little difficult because obviously you shut the kitchen down, you know, so we had to lay off some people. And um, but one of the always things I always said is, you know, everyone's like, oh, it's great you sold your company or this or that. But I'm most proud of never missing a payroll. Awesome. Yeah, and as small business owners, we we understand that. And uh, you know, taking care of your people was the most important thing to me. It wasn't just about me and my family, it was about the employees and their families too. So uh you just got you know, it's grit. You you grind it out, you figure out a way, and uh you know, you come back on the other side.

Speaker 4: 6:19

Yeah. So you sold the Molsa course, um, and then what what year was that roughly?

Speaker: 6:25

That was uh 2020, is when we actually signed the deal. It was a week before COVID hit.

Speaker 4: 6:32

Okay, nice.

Speaker: 6:33

Just in time. Just in time.

Speaker 4: 6:36

So so what did you stay on there with them? Is that part of the deal? How long were you there after after selling?

Speaker: 6:43

Yeah, I stayed on for about 18 months, um, you know, part of the transition period. And I actually thought, you know, I'll just stay on. But then what happened is after about a year, you realize that they want to run it a certain way, and I want to keep running it my way. And uh it was time, so I transitioned out at the end of 21.

Speaker 4: 7:04

Yeah.

Speaker: 7:04

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 7:05

So 21, I think what'd you buy? This 23, 24?

Speaker: 7:10

Uh Lansing Brewery was May at 24.

Speaker 4: 7:12

Okay. So, what'd you do in between retired life out the beach?

Speaker: 7:16

Uh you know, that was about a week, and my wife's like, uh, you're not I'm not used to you being around here. You need to get the hell out of the house. So go. Um so I found you saw the opportunity in the NA space. Uh so I started a company called Fuel Beverage, and uh it was NA NA craft beers and uh functional energy drinks. Okay, and still have that company today. And uh the NA beers are we're doing great with them. We've won uh multiple awards in the U.S. Open Beer Championship, beat out Athletic a couple of times in the NA IPA and the Feel Better Blondes. So that's been a lot of fun. The energy drink side is wild, wild west. Yeah. I thought that I knew beverage, you know, because I was in the beer business, but that is a whole different ball game. Um so we're still in it, but uh so fuel beverage is still going. Then I started Detroit Liquid Ventures. Okay, and um, we started co-packing some of our uh other items we made out of Detroit. I wanted to so I did the German side. I'm also Irish, so I wanted to come out with some Irish style items.

Speaker 4: 8:18

Nice, yeah.

Speaker: 8:19

So uh came out with a brand called Old Head and actually just got back from there two weeks ago from uh Ireland down in Cork. So there's an iconic golf course called Old Head. And uh so we made an Old Head Red, an old head stout, and an extra pale ale and owed to Old Head in Ireland. So we did that out of Detroit. So now all of our production is all up here in Lansing.

Speaker 4: 8:45

So talking about production, big part of the reason we're here is Todd and Micro Canner. So how did Todd like you first started working together at Atwater? How'd that come about? How'd that come about? Why'd you decide to call Todd and Micro Canner?

Speaker: 8:58

Yeah, so we we were looking at at um options uh for as far as our canning line. At the time we had a bottling line, and you know, people were shifting from bottles to cans. So we wanted to uh look at something that could fit in our footprint, which was you know very important, right? And the best thing that microcanner had is had that solution, right? That had you know uh all the technology and a smaller footprint that allowed us to produce the cans that we needed on a timely basis. And uh they were great partners, came out, installed everything, um, and and it worked out really well.

Speaker 4: 9:32

So, Todd, how early in in microcanner's development was that?

Speaker 1: 9:36

I'm gonna guess 2017 or 2018 is about when we put that in. Sounds about right, yes. And then uh, and then you know, we had heard that he had sold to Molson Cours, and we had stopped in there and talked to some of the guys, and then all of a sudden a week or two later, Mark calls us up and says, I need another canning line. Perfect timing. We've got brand new product, way better than the old product, and uh, you know, it's just evolution. And then we rolled one out here uh just this spring. And yeah, it's so it's been a good partnership.

Speaker 4: 10:09

How how did that help you grow? What was the competition, I guess, like in that space? I don't know if there's a lot of uh a lot of competition in the canning space, if there's like a large price difference. Uh, you said portable portability and size uh were important. Like, did it give you a competitive advantage or just an advantage to be able to grow um like quicker because you can sell the brand? Tell me a little bit about the canning and and how packaged goods like really support the business as well.

Speaker: 10:37

Yeah, I think that for us uh at LBC here, uh we didn't have the space to put in a uh carton after, right? So we use pactex. Um, and so knowing that and knowing our space limitations, uh the current model that we had when that I inherited when I bought the company, uh, we weren't receiving uh the uh oxygen, uh we were receiving too much oxygen content, and we had a depaletizer that was very inefficient. And so uh you know, that's when I went to Todd and I said, look, you know, we need a better solution here. And and it's not just the speed or the or the uh size of the canning line, but it's the technology and the ability to fill these cans uh effectively and in the in the best interest of the product downstream. So when we get into marketplace, we want to make sure that that product's gonna last longer in market. So that was one of the things.

Speaker 1: 11:35

Yeah in a can is a bad thing. It can reduce shelf life. If you have low DO or low dissolved oxygen, you can have stable shelf life without refrigeration for maybe a year. But if you have high DO, you might have it for two weeks. Oh wow, it can really be bad for the beer.

Speaker 4: 11:52

Yeah. So yeah, we'll get back into more of that later, too.

Speaker 1: 11:55

I think just wanted a quick yeah, no, it's perfect.

Speaker 4: 11:58

Like, like, really, we'll explain to the viewers a little bit more of the details on the specs because that's over my head on the oxygen content. So, really, um, so what's exciting here now? I understand you're doing um spirits as well, and ciders, and seems that cider seem to be growing a bit too. Um, and uh non-alcoholic. Do you have a lot going on? I I did read somewhere that you're also trying to revive a peanut butter brand, like a West Michigan or a Detroit area.

Speaker: 12:29

Yes, yeah.

Speaker 4: 12:30

Um we don't need to get too far down that road, but it sounds like you got a lot on your plate. Yeah. Um, and it's exciting stuff. So what are you excited about now uh that you're working on?

Speaker: 12:41

Yeah, and part of that that goes into part of it is I I'm I'm a big fan of of reviving uh brands that have uh either been dormant or need to come back. I mean, Lansing Brewery Company is a perfect example of that. You know, they LBC was founded in 1898. Oh, really? It's a hundred-year-old brewery that uh stopped production like many during Prohibition. Uh, and then it was brought back in in 2015. So that got me excited. I'm a Michigan State guy, so that's really easy. That's why I'm back here in Lansing. Uh, we're the official partner of MSU Athletics, so we have our product in Spartan Stadium, we'll have it in Breslin. Those kind of things really get me excited about the future of LBC and moving forward, is strategic partnerships like that. Uh, that's that's great. Um, so those are some of the things that we're really excited about.

Speaker 4: 13:30

So you have a little fun to sink time.

Speaker: 13:33

You have to. If you don't, you know. That's after I did my exit, I said whatever I do next, I gotta have I'm gonna have some fun with uh but the Velvet's fun because we're doing Velvet is the name of the peanut butter company uh and we're making a velvet peanut butter porter here. Okay, uh we're gonna be canning that all right on Todd's uh canning line here in about three weeks for the first time. Um people are really excited about it. We have it in draft, we have it across the state and some handful of accounts, and people are really going crazy over it.

Speaker 4: 14:02

What's the uh future hold for the next year and then maybe like five years? What are some of the goals that you're really trying to hit?

Speaker: 14:10

Well, I I think that you know, craft beers, you know, hit some road bumps, but uh the one thing about beer is not going anywhere, right? I think it just changes, it shifts, it's a little bit different. So we're you know, I'm kind of taking a look at you have to be ahead of the game. So we're we're a beverage company, not just a beer company, but beer is you know the focus of who we are and will always be that way. You know, is all the new products that we come out with. We want to come out with a uh you know, a seltzer product, uh, we want to come out with some our spirit in the marketplace. So those are big things over the next five years is that we're gonna release those into the market, our new beverage items, but always focusing on the core, which is our beer. So those are the things that we're really looking forward to over the next five years.

Speaker 4: 14:54

No, you think you're gonna mostly stay a regional company, or you kind of have bigger plans to maybe grow some portion of that business, uh, maybe nationally or internationally.

Speaker: 15:05

Yeah, we're uh you know, world domination. Not taking too far. No, and it's always been you know, that's been my it's always been my goal as world domination, but it uh but selectively, and I think that'll be with different brands. Okay. LBC will always be a Michigan brand. We're not gonna go out of state with that, but we can take the infrastructure we have under different brand names and take certain products national.

Speaker 4: 15:26

Okay.

Speaker: 15:27

Yeah, that's what we're planning on doing.

Speaker 4: 15:28

Super interesting. Look forward to seeing that growth.

Speaker 1: 15:30

Yeah, absolutely. Well, what I find interesting is you started with loggers and then everyone did the IPA shift, and now I'm seeing everybody transition back to the loggers. Yeah. So you're ahead of the game.

Speaker: 15:42

Yes, thank you.

Speaker 1: 15:42

I appreciate that.

Speaker: 15:43

Tell my wife that right now.

Speaker 4: 15:47

Yeah. So anything else, Todd, what do you um what do you see? And you talked about your little cans, and that's something that sounds like would be more for this the spirits line.

Speaker 1: 15:57

Yeah, so well, and people are already doing RTDs in our normal canning line. What's an RTD? All ready to drink cocktail. So whether you know, like a soda-based with vodka or whiskey or whatever, whatever spirit you mix with it, that's always already been pretty popular. Uh, we're seeing it and with THC infused stuff as well, is becoming really popular. But um, we have seen that the the brewery has had headwinds, but guys who like Mark are looking forward and are more visionary, they're going to succeed, and they are succeeding. So we're we're getting more applicants than we're losing breweries, but you know the breweries that are gonna go out the day you meet them. They're just uh they don't have the fire. You know, they're everyone just wants to, they think they can jump in and do it. And it takes some dedication, it takes some grit, and it takes uh a willingness to uh you have to have a passion for it, or you're not gonna, you're not gonna make it. And that happens with canning lines also. I mean, we've got a lot of competitors out there, and they've all sold the private equities and they're all circling the drain. They're all having big difficulties, and now we're kind of like the last guy standing. We're the only privately held company doing this. And I I was I was made some good offers and I've resisted because I don't want to watch my baby get you know pulled apart. I'd rather just keep having fun with it.

Speaker 4: 17:27

Seems to be a common thing with private equity over the past few years, especially. Yeah, I appreciate that, yeah. That really focused on the local and the people and the old old brands, have some fun with life and business, um, all good stuff. And you gotta be hard-nosed like your uh like your beer.

Speaker 1: 17:44

Like our spirits and beer. Yeah, hard nosed. Yeah, I just have a blast because I get to meet guys like Mark, and they're all over the country, and there's success stories everywhere, and it's it's just a lot of fun traveling and meet these guys and see it all.

Speaker 4: 17:57

I think for um, you know, a lot of this podcast and channels about uh business owners and I think having fun is seems to be a common common thread, and being curious, I think that's another one that's come up lately is always being curious because you're always gonna get better, you're always gonna want to get better and uh learn, explore, and change with the market.

Speaker 1: 18:17

Yeah, you better love it or you're not gonna survive.

Speaker: 18:19

No, yeah, and you gotta be ready to pivot. Because if you if you think you're just gonna go down one path and I'll I'm gonna be successful doing this forever, it's not gonna happen. So, you know, nimble pivots, I call it. Yeah. So monitor your exits. Yes, yeah, right.

Speaker 4: 18:37

Anything else you'd like to share? So I here's a good one to maybe wrap up on. Sure. Um, like if you were to go back and tell your 20-year-old self, what might you do differently, or what advice would you give?

Speaker: 18:50

Oh, in fact, I just oh, right out of college.

Speaker 4: 18:54

Maybe, yeah. Well, either way, no. I'm sorry, I'll let it go.

Speaker: 18:57

So I gave the uh commencement speech this year at Michigan State Business School. Awesome. Uh yeah, that was in the Brussels Center, 5,000 people. That was that was something, you know, and that's what I told everybody. I said, look, you you you you can't have it all figured out day one, right? And you think you do, but it's gonna take time, right? And I always talk about you know, working in your passion. That's great if you can find something that is in your passion that you can make a great living at, but you might be really good at something else, and maybe you do that, and then you you work on your passion on the side, and maybe it all comes around in the future. I said, but you can't map it all out day one. It's just not there. So um that's one of the big things and one of the messages I when I talked to a lot of the uh you know, the graduates are soon to be graduates is telling that that story. Because, you know, I thought I had it all figured out and I didn't.

Speaker 4: 19:51

Sure.

Speaker: 19:51

You know, and uh, you know, if I look back at, you know, when I first started the business, first thing I would have said is you need a lot more working capital.

Speaker 6: 19:59

Yeah.

Speaker: 19:59

You know, I tell everybody that make sure that if you think you you have your working capital worked out times it by three, and then you might be there.

Speaker 1: 20:07

But if you wait that long, you might not make it happen.

Speaker: 20:10

That's true. You just have to depends on the business you're in, that's all.

Speaker 4: 20:13

Yeah. Well, I see that with another um person I've interviewed recently. Is working capital is really showing up. You really see the value in following that business.

Speaker 6: 20:23

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 20:24

Awesome. Well, appreciate your time. We're gonna continue the conversation later with Todd at least, and maybe we'll catch up with you at some point again. Um, we're gonna have a look around. Appreciate your time. Uh thank you so much. Thanks for the time, Todd. Thank you. Thanks for the conversation here. Thank you again. And thanks you guys for joining us. Cheers. Micro scanner is gonna walk us through how the candy process works and a bit of a split.

Speaker 2: 20:58

So, this is our basically panel control room, and the guys have jigs for the panels down here, and they just they have a big cart with spools of wire, they just pull it out.

Speaker 1: 24:25

You can see here they've got tons of wire all spooled up underneath, and they just pull it out of these holes in the workbench to the length they need to cut it and strip it and assemble it. And you'll see better uh examples of PLCs out here. So, this is the tooling room, this is where we make all of our parts. So, we've got anything from old school bridgeboards to um precision state-of-the-art CNC machining centers. This one has a uh fourth axis, so we can do multiple setups and kind of program it to do whatever he wants it to do.

Speaker 3: 25:04

So, yeah, this is it just gives us extra capability of like doing side ops and and doing more complex parts um in like less operations and just makes the manufacturing process easier.

Speaker 4: 25:18

So, what types of pieces do you make here?

Speaker 3: 25:20

Pretty much anything we we can make, we make it here. Um, and like limited on the machinery and space we have here. Um and anything that we can't make, we can't we just outsource to local um machine shops that have which is mostly sheet metal. Just sheet metal, yeah. So any like three-dimensional part that we can make on the middle or a lathe, we make it here. We like making the parts here so we can control the quality and everything and make sure our parts and finishes and fits are like the best it can be.

Speaker 1: 25:48

So in the beginning, we outsource stuff and it would come in with crooked screw holes or missing taps or just weird stuff, and then and some sometimes it would be good, and then sometimes it'd be terrible, and we wouldn't find out the terrible until it was too late. Yeah, so Jake can control it now, and like these machines are way newer, better than anything any of our outsource guys have. These are more these are purchased brand new, yeah, and we don't run them to death, they hold really tight tolerances. Like he can, he's repeatable but like what tighter than a thousandth of an inch. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 26:22

We hold easily a thousand.

Speaker 1: 26:24

Yeah, so like less than a third of a human hair diameter is with the repeatable precision on these, and less than maybe half of that even.

Speaker 3: 26:32

Oh yeah. It also helps with prototyping too. We can we can engineer things way faster and just build things and make things better. We can come up with better ideas and just make them right here, you know. Like I'll make a design change the same day, I'll have the part done and put on a machine and test it. And testing it. So that's awesome. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 26:52

And it's not possible to cut anything up. Now there's it happens to be plastic in here right now, but it'll cut through stainless steel. It'll cut through three eighths, it'll cut through three inches of stainless steel. So fingers and hands and pick your hand right about it.

Speaker 3: 27:07

There's right at the tip right here, 60,000 psi of water comes out and it mixes it with this fine abrasive, so it's like sand water coming out of it. And I think it the guy said it's coming about the speed of a bullet coming out of that tip.

Speaker 1: 27:22

So it does have to be treated like a gunshot. If you get hit by that, you need to go to the hospital and tell them this is a water jet, I need to be treated as if it's a GSW.

Speaker 6: 27:33

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:33

Because it gets so much air that it'll start to poison your blood and it'll move up your arm. And if they don't stop that, it can get your heart. Wow.

Speaker 3: 27:43

But that'll never happen. We won't do that.

Speaker 1: 27:45

In the beginning, it was just basically Jake, Arthur, myself, and I think Mike Elkins. Yep. And we were working in Belmont. We were a design-only company. We didn't do any manufacturing. We designed for people who manufactured. And Jake liked working with his hands more, so he left briefly to go be a Jimmy John sandwich delivery guy because he was running bikes. He's one of the fastest bike riders. Oh, that makes sense.

Speaker 3: 28:11

I don't know about that. I'm decently fantastic. Yeah, I can compete. You're unstrummed, yeah. One of the top guys.

Speaker 1: 28:18

So don't be all humble. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, I called him up and like, you gotta come back. We're making stuff now. So he came back, and that's when we had finished up Seedsma's first machine, and we started designing the reproduction machine, put it on Pro Brewer, and guys started showing up from Connecticut. So, next thing you know, we're building this stuff in our prototype lab in the back of that little office building, and then we're just we're driving out to Connecticut and we're installing machines and going to like this place Noble Order in the middle of uh nowhere. Just some crazy stuff happening on all these trips and then old firehouse brewing.

Speaker 3: 29:02

Oh, yeah. We stayed right on the Mississippi right there.

Speaker 1: 29:07

A few characters there were. Oh, yeah. And then he got to stay uh T-Lixer kombucha, one of our first guys down in West Palm Beach. Yeah, we did some work for him, and then the guy kind of had a temper and he tore apart his machine, and Jake had to go down there and do some repair to it, and he ended up getting to stay at right next door to Marlago where Trump was in town, and the CIA or the Secret Service.

Speaker 3: 29:32

It was like right when he was first getting elected, too, and it was just like, yeah, they they had cop cars on every corner of that island, and the owner of Marlago or the owner of TLix or Kombucha, his dad had a house next to Trump.

Speaker 1: 29:45

Yeah. And Jake had to wait to catch his flight, so he took his skateboard down and just slipping around.

Speaker 3: 29:50

Yeah, yeah. I didn't I didn't get arrested or anything, so that's good. But yeah. Yeah, it's cool. Cool. Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1: 30:06

Oh yeah. And then he couldn't get a home.

Speaker 3: 30:11

It was like a delta shutdown or something where their computers went and I was just like stuck. And they they had no solution for me. And I'm like, well, I guess.

Speaker 1: 30:25

I gotta go left because there's no bridge to get me. So he has to go left like overview chat or whatever. And I happen to be in Justin and just total the Martin is and we towed a trailer down behind her angle delivering the top screwing. So I had to have a buddy of mine tow the trailer home because the car was done. We had a running car. I didn't get a call from Jake and he's like, hey, why is the microcannon trailer behind the sound?

Speaker 3: 30:54

I'm just driving on my Todd's vehicle. What is going on?

Speaker 4: 31:05

It'd be nice to kind of rewind a little bit, start from the beginning again, and see where the seeds were started here, but I'd actually like to go a little bit further back and um hear about a little bit about your growing up story. You shared some of that in the car. I don't know if we got that, but I'd like to hear some of the um some of the little Todd up to Big Todd and kind of what led you down the whole path of of entrepreneurship and and then more specifically in the engineering design and then into Michael Canner.

Speaker 1: 31:34

Yeah, so I started out living in Marriedhausen, Michigan State. That's where I was born. I kept my dad out of the Vietnam War by being born. That was my first accomplishment. And my brother was born and they adopted my sister. And shortly after he got his PhD in uh genetics and horticulture and had a few patents for tomato uh varieties under his belt, and uh dole pineapple hired him. So we moved to Hawaii, and Hawaii was kind of home base for quite some time, uh probably the rest of his life. He just most of the rest of his life. So he uh he became president of Dole Pineapple through a lot of transfers, like he took transfers that nobody else wanted. Like we went from Hawaii to Honduras, Honduras back to Hawaii, Hawaii, everyone wanted Hawaii, Hawaii back to Honduras, and then Honduras to Mindanao, Philippines, which was in the middle of Civil War, which Honduras the first two times were in the middle of ABSCAM and the Sandinista Contra war. So you had war in Nicaragua, you had war in El Salvador, and all those guns came through our little sleepy home port of La Seba where we lived. And uh so there were a lot of interesting characters around that had participated in and survived the Bay of Pigs, and we're working for three-letter agencies running around. And there aren't many people that speak English in those countries, so they become kind of your friends in your orbit. Yeah, and um so there was that. Uh, my parents got divorced when I was in the third grade, and I came back here to Michigan. This is where they're both from. My grandparents are from, and this was home base. So I would go to school here and then get shipped off every summer to wherever he was living. So high school was my favorite ship away period. That's where I learned how to work hard.

Speaker 4: 33:27

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 33:28

And when I say learn how to work, it's working third shift or at third, it was second shift in the pineapple farm doing pineapple harvest is grueling. Yeah. So so through high school, it's uh well, the thing is, we were the only two howly boys, that's what they call white boys. There's a lot of racism in Hawaii. And uh, and if you're white, you're not liked, and you're gonna get beat up a few times. And when I say a few times, I mean a lot, you learn to uh deal with it and uh and run fast. Motivation, yeah.

Speaker 4: 34:03

So, yeah, the exterior motivation.

Speaker 1: 34:04

Eventually you prove yourself, and you're working in these pineapple fields with um, they're mainly like uh migrant families from Philippines and uh China and a few Japanese. So I had a my field boss, one of my best field bosses ever, was uh Senator Anoye's son, Mark Anoye. And uh he really worked, he he worked as hard, but he taught us how to work, and uh and he was always had a smile on his face, super nice guy. And uh and Senator Mark Anoya himself came up picking pine, they call it the pineapple. So we would pick pineapple all night long, and then we'd surf all day long, and then hurry home, throw our fried rice in a Tupperware, and throw our giant chaps on, and grab our screen goggles and our hats and go back out to the field where we'd work in the sun for a couple hours until sunset and then or until one or two in the morning, yeah, do it again. But uh we did that for three summers. We were the only three Howley boys that came back three summers in a row that anybody can remember. Yeah, but we were kind of had to because we were the boss's sons, yeah. So we didn't have a choice. Um in fact, my dad was so adamant that we had to outperform everybody. Sting. It was actually called the police back then. The police, Joan Jet, Foreigner, all these bands were playing at Aloha Stadium, and they were big, and it was 1982, and we wanted to go so badly. It was a Friday night, and he's like, No, you're the boss's son, you gotta work. So I messed up, and then some friends of mine invited me on a catamaran trip to go with their uncles to Kawaii to surf kawaii. It's just an 80-mile trip on their family catamaran. No, it interferes with work, so yeah, the bittersweet, but the the sweet is it it taught me how to work. Yeah, so one thing that I did find is whenever I got could get out of pineapple picking, they would come and ask for volunteers to the shop. And I was always quick to raise my hand because I love working in shops. I was always in, I loved drafting in junior high uh in Grandville, is where I kind of learned it. I loved welding. My buddy across the street, he and I would build go-karts. Okay, he ended up in the tool and die industry as well. And uh so they're like, Do any of you guys know how to weld? I'm like, I know how to weld. Can you fabricate stuff? I'm like, Yeah, and they're like, How old are you? And I lied about my age because OSHA wouldn't let a 15-year-old go to the shop or even work in the pineapple field. So I had to say, I'm 16. So I would cut steel and rebuild these trucks that were rusting just as fast as they could because you're on an island next to the ocean. Yeah, so I got pretty good at welding and fabricating and uh came back here and we moved to uh Grand Haven, and Grand Haven offered Ottawa Area Vocational Center where I took drafting technologies and I learned computer aided design. Entered the workplace right out of high school at BB Design, started designing there. They introduced me to CATIA, worked there two and a half years, didn't like somebody that I had to work for, so I got a job at Frederick's Design. They gave me director of computer-aided design within a year of being there. I was 19, and I had uh, I don't know, like a dozen people that were working uh under me at one time, uh like three or four immediately, but then we kind of expanded quite a bit. Okay. And we had a company called Build Incorporated where we started building the machinery we designed, and when you do something 70 hours a week, you get really good at it, you know. So we immersed ourselves in our work and we all loved it. We played hard and we worked hard, and uh and then later on I ended up in the Grand Rapids area and uh at Capital Engineering and connected with a guy there when it was in the middle of a buyout. He and I started Levant Incorporated together. He was the owner, I was just running his automation division. A couple years after that, I'm like, you know what, I can do this on my own. So I opened up an engineering firm and ran that for since 1997, September 7, 97. So I was like 30 years old and freshly 30 years old, or maybe turning, no, I was 29, I was turning 30. And uh ran that until we had babies, two uh two girls and uh later a boy, baby boy, and then we were doing fun work, robotic weld cells, we were doing assembly lines for the Chevy Volt and the Chevy Bowl, and it was all under our engineering umbrella, and it was fantastic, it was so much fun. One day my cousin comes in the door, he owns Seatsman Cider, or his family was Seatsman Cider. He carried in a box of these big champagne bottles with corks in them, filled with cider that he had made, and said, Hey, as you know, we sell cider and donuts, but this is hard cider, and I'd like you guys to try some of it. So, next thing you know, we're all kind of hammer-faced. He's like, I need a canning line. And I thought of it a little bit because years before, just before the 07 deal, I was I had gotten a brewery approved that I was going to start. Like we had all the licensing, everything in place, but we had to move out of the facility because my partners didn't want to help support it. So I had like a good background on beer and the customer side, kind of too. Yeah, and I knew what it took to make a good beer and how to preserve it and what's involved in packaging. So that would transfer over to CIDR a little bit as well. So I told him, yeah, I'll design that for you. So we set out to build it. I told him this will be the easiest project we design all year. We designed designed and built it and uh ran it off and his facility, and it ran great. And I'm like, okay, so here's the deal. This thing's running pretty good. Do you want to buy this from me now? Or should I put it on Pro Brewer? And he's like, Let me go get my checkbook. So the first one I think was $45,000. And it begins, yeah, and there it goes. So then Jake and I are like, let's design the 201, we're gonna call it, take everything we've learned and just make it way better. So we did that, and within three or four months, we had one running, we're already advertising it. This was back in like 2015, maybe 2014, and we were the first ones in the industry to develop this flip rinser that takes the cans and rinses them out. Nobody ever did that before we did it, so we kind of incorporated that to all of our 201s and our 202s, which was just a minor evolution from the two. Okay, and we started having people come from Connecticut, Rhode Island, Albuquerque, they were flying in to see what we were doing in our little tiny prototype lab, which was no bigger than this kitchen, and that was it. And uh Jake, we're in trouble because these guys are buying this stuff, we need a bigger space, so I went out looking. There was nothing on the market because times were pretty good at that period, and you couldn't find that empty space. So I said, Okay, I've got a 40-foot by 50-foot barn in my yard with uh observation deck to watch my girls play basketball from. We're gonna put a bathroom under that, turn that into an office, and we're gonna build canning lines in my front yard. It's not quite legal for zoning, but as long as nobody complains, no one's gonna know. We'll just be good neighbors. So we did that. We had uh and Tina was excited about this too. Uh she was when she saw the activity. She's like, You might have something here. Nice. And the orders just started coming. And so I went back to YouTube videos and looked at my oldest ones, and there were weeks where I flew to Albuquerque and I trained a crew of guys, and then I came home, and then I flew to West Palm Beach and trained a kombucha guy, came home, jumped in the pickup truck with Jake with a trailer and a trailer and machine or a loaded-up trailer, and went all the way to Connecticut, dropped one there, and dropped one on the way back, and next to the uh where the Underground Railroad was formed in Ohio, right on the river, the Ohio River. And uh, you know, we were just meeting all these cool people. We were it was hard work though. I was literally living out of my truck and out of a suitcase, and and flying anything that I couldn't drive, and your LTL freighting. So after a while, we're like, this is too much. Let's LTL freight everything and we'll just fly there and train them. So we did that right up until COVID, and then all of a sudden, 50% of the country, almost exactly 50% of the country, didn't want to see us in person anymore. So we're like, okay, we want to get these people, their breweries can't survive without putting beer in cans. So how do we help them survive? So we did training videos and started microcameraparts.com, and then they could do everything on their own from a video and with a Skype phone call. And the rest of the people are like, Will you come see us? And at this time, it's like, oh my gosh, I had my pilot, I just got my pilot's license, and I'm like, I have a way to go see them. I don't need commercial airlines to take me. Sure. So I'm like, honey, I have to go. So I would just go and Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. I got to see Three Mile Island approaching on approach as I came in and trained those guys at Zero Day, and just went to Asheville, North Carolina and trained Dissolver, downtown Asheville, and and that really helped propel us forward, it moved us forward quickly. And then we eventually thought said, okay, let's phase out all in-person training unless they want to pay for it. And that way we don't have to boost the prices of our stuff because during COVID stuff started becoming expensive. Oh yeah. My sister was teaching English and she was in China for 11 years. And uh I heard that Delta shut down their last commercial flight out of China. So I called my sister and said, Stacy, put everything in two check-in bags right now. I want you to take an Uber to Shanghai Airport and get home because all the commercial airlines are gonna be shut down probably by Monday. And she's like, I gotta get my last paycheck. I'm like, how much is that? She's like, $1,200. I'm like, I'll give you two grand just to come now. Come on, let's go. Yeah. And then uh she's like, No, I gotta say goodbye to my colleagues. I'm like, okay, but then I expect you to Uber there, give them hugs, get back in the Uber, go to the airport. So she did. She got in the, I think it was, I don't remember if it was the American Airlines or the United Airlines, but whichever one, all the people from the opposing airline walked over to join them because there weren't many of them. They all got on one plane and they said, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the United States. You are the last American commercial flight out of China.

Speaker 2: 45:41

Wow.

Speaker 1: 45:42

And I sent her to my dad's house because he was in Honduras visiting friends, yeah, trying to figure out how to get home. Sure. And uh and the next morning I woke up like with an epiphany, oh no, where are all my board level components made? Where is all my where are all my electronics coming from? And I started Googling automation direct, click PLCs, Wuhan, China. So the next morning I said, guys, buy up all the inventory of everything we need right now. So we stocked a million dollars worth of PLCs, motors, HMIs, all the controls parts that we needed to build canning lines for almost two years. That's really forward-thinking. Like that's great. And then we called all of our vendors in and told them they need to have blanket orders in place for everything coming out of Germany. And I want, I'm gonna stock 20 motors, you're gonna stock 20 motors, and I want a hundred motors waiting for me in Germany. They're like, oh, you're you're being too you're being a little bit over dramatic. It's nothing's gonna happen. The next week they come in, you were totally right, our supply chain is crumbling. I'm like, get me my motors right now. Yeah, so we filled this place with stuff, and we built our our orders tripled because they had to to keep breweries alive, and we worked our butts off. And uh, that's where I said this kitchen came in handy because when all the restaurants closed, I made meals for the guys every single day, whether it was pork, uh you know, smoked ribs or steaks or hamburgers or whatever, and eventually they started telling me what they wanted on their repeat. So we had our we had like 14 days and I would rotate kind of like the hot lunch program. Sure. Just a little bit better, I'm guessing. Oh, yeah, and you know, so I'm just cooking away. I I learned to cook from my grandma, and we had meats in Honduras that took me to the market every day because we didn't have stable refrigeration, so you had to kind of go figure out what was fresh. And to this day, it's like it's my habit to stop at home and then figure out what we're gonna have for dinner based on what looks the best in the store. Sure. What's the freshest? What this came in. Does the fish counter look like it's good? No, it doesn't look like it's good. We're gonna go have this, yeah. So yeah, anyway, no, it was fun. This is a family here. Uh yeah, these guys we've traveled all over together and we've done a lot of stuff together, and uh, it's it's just been a blast. We've got the best team I could ever ask for. And like Jake was telling you, his tenure is coming up this December, and uh he had hair back when he started, and mine wasn't just gray. And uh I'll tell you what, it went by fast, and it's a it's just been fun. And I don't think there's anything I'd change.

Speaker 4: 48:45

Yeah, work hard, play hard. It sounds like the theme.

Speaker 1: 48:48

If you love what you do, you never work it in anymore.

Speaker 4: 48:51

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 48:52

And surround yourself with the people you want to be surrounded with. Yeah, it's been good.

Speaker 4: 48:58

That's a great story. I think we've seen a lot. Um where where do you go from here? Like what's uh what are you working on now? And then what's next time? How do you see the next five years?

Speaker 1: 49:12

We're always looking at diversification. So we're big in the canned beverage industry, the canned beverage industry. Um I was showing you our XE mobility wheelchair that we tried to launch, and that I thought it was gonna be like a huge success. And it turns out I think people's lives just change and their desires change and they no longer really need to. I thought they'd want to go outside uh if something happened to them. But we tried hard marketing it, we couldn't get any traction whatsoever, even through like Black Rifle Coffee Company and uh Wounded Warrior Program and uh veteran, the veterans uh hospital, uh various insurance companies. Turns out insurance companies don't really like to pay out when people get hurt, so they don't want to buy them stuff. Yeah, who would have thought? I wouldn't have thought. But um, anyway, that kind of fell apart. So now I'm playing with a new airplane tug design that'll work really well for like grass strips and uh inclement weather and bigger, clunkier machine uh planes that are hard to tow through snow and ice and slush because nobody makes anything like that out there. So and an airplane tug for the audience is something that you can pull your plane in and out of a hangar with okay, and something we have to do all the time. And and here in winter in Michigan, it gets kind of hard for a little old me to pull a 3,600-pound plane with only wheels this big around out through these chunky ice craters. So I want to get something that's a little bit more of a beast and electric and smooth and clean. So we're working on that, and we may revisit um pasteurization, we may revisit automatic pack techers. Uh, we did develop some labeling equipment for a while, and those worked great until the pandemic, China started sending all this stuff with weird backers and adhesives and scrapping what they could, probably. Yeah, and people didn't want to buy. We told them if you're gonna buy our labeler, you have to buy these labels from this guy or this guy, and only them, because they know of the problem and they're the only people we trust. But they're two cents a label more, we're gonna get them from our guy. I'm like, you're gonna avoid warranty. So they did, and they destroyed their equipment, and it was really difficult. And it's like, you know what, let's quit making these because people don't want to listen. Let's just they're not working. So we may find another thing like that, but I don't think that you know, beverage canning for the niche small market like we have, it's not going anywhere, it's just changing. Yeah, so you're seeing CBD and THC going into sodas, you have ready-to-drink craft cocktails, you have guys that are just doing soda uh cocktail mixers. We have this guy called Wisconsin Drink. He makes uh he has a maple uh sugar farm, and he also makes, so he makes these Wisconsin old-fashioned mixes and Manhattan mixes, and then he cans them, they're slightly carbonated, and you just mix them with your own whiskey. Interesting. He there's guys like him all, there's just different stories everywhere. There's coffee guys doing nitrogen dose, coffee, flat wines, yeah, you name it, it's out there, and it seems like it never turns off.

Speaker 4: 52:31

So in your business and the manufacturing process, does that change things a lot with the amount of I don't know, nitrogen, oxygen, all these different uh methods?

Speaker 1: 52:41

No, not really. It all adapts surprisingly well, and it's very easy. And um, you know, like when we started, there were 4,200 breweries in America. There are now something like 9,800. So last year we gained, I think, we lost 400, but we gained 550, so there was a net gain of 150. So the gains are getting smaller, but you have to look at the difference. We started with 4,500, we have well over 9,500, and less than 1% of them have a canning. So there's a lot of opportunity out there. Yeah, our used stuff does compete, but used stuff starts to get more expensive as parts become harder to find, and our technology gets better and improves, and and we start making things faster, better, cheaper, and more streamlined. Like one thing, too, when we started, it was just 12 ounce or 16-ounce cans. That was it. Now everybody wants sleeks and slims and standard cans, eight ounces, 12 ounces, 16 ounces, 19 ounce stove pipes, which are much taller than this. So we make our machines so we can basically do everything except the slims. We don't bother with those because cool people kind of holds the uh they kind of hold the the market on those, and that you can only get them a couple months out of the year. Oh gosh. They've monopolized it. But uh, but yeah, I mean, I don't really see it slowing down much. Uh if anything, this year we picked up a lot with our new designs. It's gotten much busier, and I'm just hoping that we kind of stay at this pace for a while. Yeah. And we'll see if we if we do move another product, we'll probably have to with our new building, maybe have two halves to it, or we'll go in half you know, product A on one side and product B on the other side, so that everybody can kind of collaborate and crosstalk and we can share engineering, share manufacturing, and just kind of share everything, but have our own separate assembly spots or our own storage for uh for commodities items.

Speaker 4: 54:58

Yeah, exciting to see potential growth. You're still open to new clients, and almost sounded like, hey, I'd like to keep things steady, but I'm guessing you mean like not dropping, but steady or increasing in a bit.

Speaker 1: 55:09

I think they're gonna continue to increase. I mean, we're seeing this year surprise. We have a there's a lot of new breweries starting out, and there's a lot of guys buying brand new equipment. They see the value in having a one-year warranty in the latest and greatest.

Speaker 4: 55:22

I think there's some incentive tax incentives now as well.

Speaker 1: 55:26

Those are coming back as well.

Speaker 4: 55:27

For business, you know, they're helpful for small businesses and capital investment.

Speaker 1: 55:31

That's exactly why we bought that brand new lathe that you saw. That's a $150,000 investment. It's made in California, it's 100% US made. And we're 100% US made. So when you go do that and you don't pay tax on it, that it comes off your pre-tags. The goal is to spend all of your income on stuff that brings you further ahead in the future, and that's capital equipment, whether it's you know, trucks, mills, airplanes, whatever. I mean, it it's furtherance of business, and that's only gonna help America because the guys that are building those lathes and those trucks, they all need jobs too.

Speaker 4: 56:15

So yeah, and you're supplying the materials for people that are supplying jobs for all the people doing the canning, brewing the beer, brewing the kombuchas and the the wines and everything. Yeah, you saw today.

Speaker 1: 56:25

There were what three or four people running the can. Yeah, that was great, and they run it every day. So those are three or four jobs that are made. If you, you know, if they didn't have that canning line, they wouldn't have those three or four people that do that every day.

Speaker 4: 56:40

And then it creates a sales job for somebody as well.

Speaker 1: 56:42

Yeah, yeah, many, not only there, but then at the distribution and then at the store clerks that have to stock all the extra beer, and then everybody gets more beer variety to drink or craft cocktails or whatever you want.

Speaker 4: 56:57

Yeah, good stuff. Anything um I should have asked so far?

Speaker 1: 57:02

I don't know. I think we covered way more than I ever thought. A long, long, long day.

Speaker 4: 57:08

It has been a long day, Todd. I really appreciate you um taking the time to spend with us today, and I really enjoyed getting to see your business.