041 - The Bitcoin Economy: Alex Mann, Timechain & Nico Lechuga, EgoDeath

In this episode Build With Bitcoin co-hosts discuss the evolving landscape of Bitcoin Venture Capital with Alex Mann of Timechain and Nico Lechuga of Ego Death Capital. They cover the recent 'The Bitcoin Economy' event held in NYC and talk through the unique challenges and opportunities faced by startups in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

The conversation highlights the importance of understanding Bitcoin as a protocol and its implications for investment strategies. The speakers also share insights on global perspectives in Bitcoin investments and the criteria for evaluating startups in this space, emphasizing the need for value-added partnerships in venture capital.

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Get more personalized onboarding with our partner River for Bitcoin-only financial services:
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction to the Bitcoin Economy Event
06:46 Exploring Business Models Built on Bitcoin
09:34 The Bitcoin Monetary Protocol vs. Bitcoin as an Asset
15:44 The Unique Mindset of Bitcoin Entrepreneurs
18:30 Challenges and Opportunities for Bitcoin Founders
35:41 Technological Innovations and Financial Institutions
39:52 Global Perspectives
46:24 What Investors Look for in Startups
50:30 The Importance of Value-Added Investment

References
https://egodeath.capital/
https://timechain.concentric.vc/
https://x.com/nico_lechuga
https://x.com/alex_singh_mann

https://www.buildwithbitcoin.xyz/
https://x.com/BuildwBitcoin
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❗ DISCLAIMER: This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any decisions consult a professional.

Transcript

Israel: 0:00

In today's episode, we speak with Alex Mann from time chain and Nico lechua from ego death, two of the top firms funding early stage companies building on the Bitcoin protocol. We cover some of the content from an event that they held in New York City last month aimed at prospective investors, and we get into some of the intricacies of building a company and investing in companies in the Bitcoin sector. We hope you enjoy and as a reminder, this podcast is for educational purposes only. Welcome to build with Bitcoin. I'm co host Israel. Munoz joined with co host Lynne Bairstow, and today, we're excited to welcome two of the top funds in the industry, ego, death and time chain, Alex, Nico, welcome.

Lynne Bairstow: 0:47

Yeah. Welcome back, because we've had both of you on previously, but this is a kind of a special edition Israel. Why don't you talk about the reason that we're having Nico and Alex on today and the event that you attended with them recently in New York?

Israel: 1:00

Yeah, so we, we'd love for you guys to, you know, tell us a little bit more about why you decided to hold this, this event, Alex and ego, but it was, it was a fantastic event, very well done in New York City. Last month, you had a small group of people, and you did a great job lining up some speakers who outlined, along with both of you the the role that Bitcoin has in the macroeconomic landscape, as well as the opportunities from the venture capital lens. So can you tell us a little bit more who attended? Who was it for, and why you both decided to hold this event called the Bitcoin Economy.

Nico: 1:38

You don't take it Alex, or, you know, dive in. Go ahead. Go ahead. So one of the biggest things that we've kind of seen within the industry of what is pushing capital on our side, I can't speak so much for Alex's, but it's largely driven by family offices. I think maybe we spoke a little bit about this on the last podcast that we did with Andy. And the one of the things with family offices is you typically have a few decision makers within the family office, and what we wanted to do was put on an event to give those decision makers a little bit more background on Bitcoin and what was being built on Bitcoin. This event was targeted at investors that probably are not as far down the rabbit hole as most of our other investors, but potential people that were interested in industry, we wanted to give them a little bit more of a taste of it. As you probably saw Israel, we spent a lot of time on, like, Bitcoin itself, the asset holding Bitcoin before we, like, dove into companies. And just wanted to give them a little bit more flavor to what was out there from an investment perspective than probably they were. They realized anything?

Alex: 2:44

Comments, yeah, well, the title of the event was the Bitcoin economy, and so really, as Nico was saying, the purpose is to explain to the audience, which was heavily family office weighted, that there is an entire economy being built on top of Bitcoin that goes beyond just buying Bitcoin and using it as a store of value asset, which is obviously the most important function, but that does throw up a whole array of new use cases and companies getting built that we term the Bitcoin economy. So we just wanted to make that point, and because there is this entirely new economy being built. There are a huge number of opportunities. And so family offices should be interested, because it might be useful for them in their pursuit of historic wealth for generations over time. But it's also an investment opportunity. So one sort of key pillar on that was family offices. Another was slightly more generalist venture funds who might have an interest in deploying money into some of the companies we've backed. Because we've backed because they're interesting companies, and then you know, some of the larger financial institutions as well, who we hope to get more involved in the Bitcoin ecosystem over time, and obviously dip their toe in with ETFs. But there's more for them to do, so we want to make it clear that we can, we can help them do

Lynne Bairstow: 4:02

as you're looking at these institutional investors becoming more curious, familiar, open to investing in Bitcoin. How do you walk them through the difference between Bitcoin the asset the ETFs, and then introduce them to the whole idea that Bitcoin is a technology that is that companies are being built on, I mean, is this, is this kind of a step by step progression? Or do you see that people might jump right into Bitcoin companies and venture funds because they it's easier for them to invest in and they're familiar with the concept of investing in venture capital.

Nico: 4:36

I find it really it depends on the institution, right? So if the if the institution has a percentage of the capital, like, if they already have an investment bucket and they have a percentage of capital that they're going to devote to private equity, and venture capital as a subset of private equity, then what you can find with like Alex and our fund is we can fit within that venture capital bucket. And like that might be an easy thing. The CIO, the Chief Investment Officer at one of these places, can, can place capital if they're going to look at it as a Bitcoin investment. I think that that generally, from, like our vantage point, there's, there's more friction, right? Like the the they have to first get over the fact of that Bitcoin, the asset, has this store of value component to it, and that the institution should probably have some allocation to that, whether that is in a multi SIG type, self custody setup or exposure via the ETF, two different things that then generally leads to then you need some degree of additional exposure in this other economy that we can provide you that type of exposure. Hey, we're going to be good stewards of capital in that space. Is kind of what what we it's much

Alex: 5:48

easier for them to understand Bitcoin than crypto if they do have a venture capital bucket, because with crypto, you have to introduce this mechanism of tokens. And you know, what are they? What do they trade? What they go up and down, all that sort of stuff. With us, we're just pure venture capital. You pure venture capital building on top of this new technology stack called Bitcoin. And that's an easier message for them to digest. There's no new sort of like investment thesis needed necessarily. Just have to buy into the idea that Bitcoin is this new technology stack, and I'm generating a good manager for getting exposure to

Israel: 6:21

that, yeah, and, you know, I love the framing and even the naming of the event that you guys chose the Bitcoin economy, and you, along with the other speakers, did a great job first, kind of outleting, you know, kind of that high level, you know, what is bitcoin within macro? And you had some great people there explaining its role, why it's important, its growth, all of that. But then you kind of transition to precisely this, this component that you're both mentioning, right? I mean, if you believe that Bitcoin is here to stay, this new, revolutionary protocol, then it just kind of logically follows, step by step from that, that there's going to be a lot of different business models plugging into into this new protocol that's still in its early stages. So I mean that being said for maybe a listener who's not as familiar with the type of business models or just businesses that have been or are being built on this protocol. What I mean, can you give us a sense Nico and Alex from your first fund, maybe, of what you've what sectors of the Bitcoin protocol stack you've invested in?

Nico: 7:29

Yeah, no problem. So a lot of it uses the Bitcoin as a protocol and the ability to either stream money or stream information across that protocol. So to get more tangible examples, I'm going to go in order, because that's how my brain works. Of like, when we placed investments, I kind of like see a chart in my head across so you have something like Fetty that's federated, both time chain and ego death. Have exposure to this company, but federated custody. So in that way, it's a it's a multi party custody. It might be an easier custody solution for someone in a developing market. So to be determined, is a very, very early stage type technology. There's been a lot that's been developed on the protocol, but in that way, we would see it as like as a stack on top of even the the Lightning Network, this like payment network built on top of Bitcoin, so something like a Sonoda that is in the energy space and is streaming money for energy payments. So imagine you're consuming energy, and in real time you're paying for that energy for bigger energy consumers. You wouldn't then have to lock up capital for your PPA. If you didn't pay for the energy. They would just shut the energy off all the way on the other side is we've invested in a company, both time chain and eco death Allen markets, that's a derivatives trading platform that's built on top of the Lightning Network. It started with futures and options for Bitcoin, and they'll still be moving into like other things priced in Bitcoin, but those are some of the use cases. I'm sure Alex has a bunch more that we can talk through.

Alex: 9:08

I can give maybe just a quick, high level framework that we use to think about how we're deploying within the space, and then the companies Nico mentioned, I think, fit quite neatly into it. So the high level framework would just be and it's very basic, but Bitcoin the asset, and Bitcoin the asset, and Bitcoin the monetary protocol, and so the assets, you know, obviously what everybody buys from, formally, Coinbase, but hopefully now Bitcoin only exchanges like relay, which, which we're also both investors in, if you're in Europe. But the way an individual or an institution or a nation state buys that asset and then makes use of it, so custody of users collateral is quite different, and so we're basically looking to fund those software applications that allow whatever end user it is to interact with the asset in a way that makes sense for them. That's probably the most basic sort of set of applications of Bitcoin. Is what everybody thinks about Bitcoin as a store value asset. The thing that's most overlooked. Horribly, or at least is people are unaware of, that gives rise to the entire Bitcoin economy. It's Bitcoin, the monetary protocol, which just allows you to move money at the speed of light with no permissions, and next no fees. And as we all know, it's failing in layers. So Bitcoin layer one, the Lightning Network, and then things like Fedi, which, which Nico was talking about, which, I guess you could argue, is a layer three, and depending on the end user, again, they will interact with Bitcoin and monetary protocol in slightly different ways. So if you're a nation state and you want to move $10 billion between two countries on a Saturday, you're going to use layer one the blockchain. If you're an individual or if you're an energy institution like sonota looking to settle an energy contract in real time. Maybe you'll use the Lightning Network. If you're an individual in rural Kenya, maybe you'll use a sediment that's Bitcoin the monetary protocol. And all applications that we fund basically fit within that, that matrix, I guess, Bitcoin asset, Bitcoin the monetary protocol, individual, institutional, nation state, conflict. And Nico just gave three examples of some of the, I would say, sort of leading examples of companies that we've backed over the last couple of years.

Nico: 11:12

One of the things, too, like just building on what Alex is saying, is, so we have this, you have this thesis of, like, how you're investing, and you have some company use cases. But the thesis we're seeing this happen right now, the thesis at the beginning, is that if there were an opportunity to exceed bitcoins rate of return, this compounded annual growth rate of Bitcoin, where could that happen? And so our core thesis was the only place that that could happen would be investing in companies that Alex is talking about. And the reason being is that you have this high growth tech company that is can cash flow Bitcoin. At the end of the day, someone is bitcoin is the underlying like asset within this technology company. And it when the company becomes cash flow positive, then the treasury of the company is in Bitcoin. And so that becomes, like, really, really profound. Like, we have a company that we have exposure to. Both of us have exposure to that at a seed stage, at 1.5 million in EBITDA last year, but it was in Bitcoin. So they, they actually made 2.2 million last year. Now, when we look at this from an investment lens, and Alex comes out of another fund called concentric, so you've got a lot more VC reps at this point in the space, and it's, it's not common to have companies at a seed stage that are cash flow positive. It is highly

Unknown: 12:38

or any state, yeah, yeah,

Nico: 12:42

it is highly unlikely that you have a seed stage company that's moving from a revenue standpoint, like, Forget volume, because entrepreneurs conflate volume and what is actually revenue is moving millions of dollars at even a series a stage, and we're seeing that in this Bitcoin Economy, so that we're starting to see this thesis prove out, and the belief that we have internally is, as you're seeing this prove out with these use cases in these companies, that the kind of risk curve of those companies is brought down, and the failure rate that you would historically have in venture capital versus some of these companies that we're starting To see within Bitcoin should be much, much lower based on the early revenue numbers that you're having the potential for profitability. Basically, the companies are choosing between whether they want to be profitable or not, and the failure rate just decreases. And it's really, really exciting to see. And I think then it comes into the other part of it, of the event of let us educate you or show you about this other thing that you might not know about, that you maybe want to put an allocation

Alex: 13:46

it's really interesting point, the effect that Bitcoin has on on the companies in general. Nico's highlighting something that's really important. The other one that I think is kind of interesting is that the way the founding teams actually think themselves, because their cost of capital is Bitcoin, so they don't make internal economic business decisions unless they think that that decision will exceed the rate of return of Bitcoin as well. So it has this really profound impact where everybody is pursuing really sort of like high growth, high impact measures at every single step of the business, which is perhaps one of the reasons why they get profitability so soon, or they grow so fast. And then that's just not true for companies in other sort of venture capital spheres, whether cost capital is a Bitcoin, they don't think in Bitcoin terms that. I think that's, that's, that's not the point. It's the one that's overlooked. And actually, I'll just make one other point about the crypto ecosystem, which is the crypto guys will issue tokens, and that distorts this very delicate product for market fit finding mechanism at the early stage. And so a difference you see at early stage Bitcoin companies. Versus crypto companies is that the Bitcoin companies are pushed to cash flow generation profitability very soon, because they don't have this, like, almost get out of jail card, which is launching a token, trying to monetize that by then providing something valuable to the market.

Lynne Bairstow: 15:17

Yeah, I think that's a really important point to kind of drill into a little bit as a difference between what most people are thinking of in terms of digital assets. And, I mean, there's so much in crypto, and the word is being used now more broadly, thank goodness. But you know the confusion between what is crypto and what is Bitcoin, and the types of founders that you're working with, and the model of starting a company based on Bitcoin, SATs flow, or Bitcoin, you know, generating Bitcoin as part of your operations, or how these founders are thinking. Nico, you want to kind of tap into what Alex was talking about and just kind of highlight some of the differences you're also seeing in founder mentality, or how they how they approach fundraising on a long term basis for their companies.

Nico: 16:05

So one of the things that we look at a lot in this space, and get the entrepreneurs to hopefully look at is timing. So timing is a huge component of these things, of depending on the what certain companies are doing, whether it's like streaming money for energy or streaming money for music, the timing of that has to be right for the market. And so, like, one of the big thesis that we have is you don't want to be right on the solution and like, wrong on the timing of maybe we're three years out on this curve of funding that. And so trying to get the entrepreneurs to understand that, I think early on, has been helpful, and it's like with things that that we are backing, I think that the component that you're getting into, from a funding standpoint, is historically, venture capital has really used VC dollars to grow right like you needed every 18 months or 24 months, depending on the funding cycles, additional funds to flow in. And it was growth at all costs. And what ended up happening was in funding downturns, when the capital dried up, those certain companies would fail. What we saw basically in the last cycle from 21 to 22 there was a lot of froth in the market in this particular space, and companies were were valued at this that at valuations that they probably shouldn't have been at. They raised money, and they with applications that were nowhere close to being able to generate any degree of revenue. And so that's kind of like, brought the market back. Like it is an amazing time to develop capital in this space, because the entrepreneurs have the scar tissue of that, as long as they were here for it. And so they realize, like, they have to immediately solve a real world problem today. Like, it doesn't matter where in other ecosystems, like, if you're building on polygon or polka.or Solana, right? It might be interesting because you have X, Y and Z token, and you can market that token, and you can find another way to have liquidity. It doesn't matter if that token thing is fundamentally inefficient to like how solutions work today in today's economy, in Bitcoin, the founders, the equity looks exactly like a Delaware C Corp or the corresponding jurisdiction, and they have to solve a real world problem today, using bitcoins protocol, they understand that every 18 to 24 months, they have to hit certain metrics in order to raise more money. However, because these companies, when they start generating cash flow, the amount of rounds that they might have to do might be less in that they're going to have a more profound impact of like we're seeing this right now with another portfolio company that had a run rate of just over seven or generated just over seven last year, and has a run rate as of last month of just north of 10. Like that company, if it continues, and it has a pretty sizable Bitcoin Treasury with the profitability like, whether it needs to raise money in the future is not the right question. It's more of they sit in the power seat, and can they raise money at the terms that they want to raise money at? And I think that the entrepreneurs in this space are starting to get conditioned of that as they start to get success. And we're seeing that, I think it's why it's really, really crucial, of where Alex and and so where time chain and ego death invest of this seed series A stage is really where you have the opportunity to still step in with the company and make a big difference, from both the company's perspective and where capital has a pretty big

Israel: 19:39

impact. It's, in a way, still a bit unbelievable that there people aren't a little more aware of this, this massive asymmetric opportunity within venture capital, right within this company, building a framework that we're speaking to. You know, Lynne and I have have been also gathering. A little bit of research and data looking into trying to size the industry as well. We were doing this wrapping up 2024 and these are 2023 numbers. But Bitcoin, global Bitcoin VC funding, speaking precisely for Bitcoin startups, right was roughly 300 and global VC funding was 250 billion. So, I mean, just, it just gives you a little bit of perspective. I mean, we're talking about roughly what point 1% of of global funding in venture capital is going to this specific protocol stack, right? And a lot of it may be due to the confusion in the market as well, right? And I think most people still don't realize a point that actually Jeff made during the the the event in New York City, which Jeff was speaking to, how people still and I thought it was a great point, are still confusing, and will continue to confuse Bitcoin as a technology versus a protocol. And how, if you look at how protocols evolve. They kind of, they tend to be, they're building on layers. They evolve or mature on layers, and they tend to be a kind of winner take all game. So from that lens, Nico and Alex, do you do you still see asymmetric opportunity within Bitcoin venture capital for a few more years? Or do you start to see other VCs, and maybe, you know Alex, since concentric also has a few other funds, you know, perhaps you you have some perspective into this. But where are we? As far as other, more generic VCs, starting to actually look into what's happening here,

Nico: 21:34

what Alex because he's got, he's got the other prize, a little more intel than I do on this

Israel: 21:39

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Lynne Bairstow: 21:55

Lynne, I am, I am. I feel so confident referring people to River in addition to what you mentioned, also, they've got us based phone support, which I think for somebody who's less familiar with the space or used to personal service, is really helpful. In addition, they have a private client services division, so if you're looking to invest 100,000 or more, they have a special suite of services designed for you, whether you're a high net worth individual, a family office or trust. I also really appreciate the continued improvements they make in the back end, so that that reliability and security continues to be really apparent.

Israel: 22:27

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Alex: 22:49

onboarding, I would say, picking up a point you made about the amount of money that goes into venture capital and the split venture capital, I would say that I think a lot of that money that goes into venture capital, just generally globally, is pretty misallocated, and it's pretty inefficiently done. So I wouldn't necessarily say that, you know, more venture dollars leads to better outcomes, necessarily. You know, if you look at the European venture landscape, I've been sort of very critical of it, because a lot of these guys who make, who raise money, actually, a lot of the money comes from the state, which is a bit of a dirty secret in in European venture capital, a lot of it comes from, effectively, the EU, they have a mechanism to fund these sort of, these large funds in particular, and it's, it's got a lot of ideas. So it's going into the sixth generation of HR software in France or something. It's not necessarily what venture capital was supposed to be designed for, which is to take risks at the frontier and drive 10x improvements in various sectors. So I think a lot of that 300 billion is misallocated, and whilst only naught by 1% or naught point naught 1% whenever it is close to Bitcoin, venture capital, that money is used very effectively and very efficiently. Very efficiently. And the Bitcoin venture space, or the number of people building on Bitcoin historically, has been, in fairness, quite small, remains quite small. Very sort of dedicated, highly intelligent people who are who believe that they do do something very important. But if you just think about, like the the steps you have to go through in order to become a Bitcoin and then loan a Bitcoin entrepreneur going to be, you know, quite a small subset of people who are very highly talented, but it's, it's, it's obviously not going to be for everyone. So think part of the role we play is we are quite highly specialized funds that operate globally, that invest in a niche of the venture capital ecosystem, but one that is growing very quickly in terms of economic returns, but also in terms of the number of people who build. Two within the space. And I think it's always going to be quite specialized at those early stages. So from pre seed to Series A, I think the generalist funds will start to come in at the maybe some late series A Series B stage, when they don't have to necessarily understand the technical nuances are building on top of Bitcoin, all the trade offs involved, and when they can just evaluate the business and say, Okay, this looks like a financial services business that is monetizing really well, that's something that we understand, that fits within our skill set. And so that's where I think they'll start to get interested. And from the portfolio that Nico and I share, we see that quite frequently now, to companies that have monetized really well, to great revenue numbers growing really strongly, maybe within the financial services space or other sectors of the economy have a generalist fund can look at and say, like, I understand, like a pattern match to this? Oh, yeah, I understand this business starts, so I think that's where I'll come in. And we're starting

Israel: 26:04

to see that makes sense, that you especially the stage that you are both focused in, it just requires a lot more specialization, and that maybe knowledge gap is still, is still missing for the more generalized VCs. Lynne, anything to add there.

Lynne Bairstow: 26:21

Yeah, it does take just kind of building on what you were talking about, the difference between technology and protocol. You know, quoting Jeff, but, you know, I think there's not a realization of the of that layer of difference inside a Bitcoin. So how, how? I mean your your specialty in understanding this and and connection to the ecosystem. I mean, how important is that for an investor who's evaluating getting involved in this space, to to really focus on, on a VC fund that is, you know, they might say, well, I want to diversify, so I'll go with a generalist, because they'll have a little bit of Bitcoin and a little bit AI and things like this. But, you know from your from you know, what you offer is really a deep knowledge of number one who's playing in the ecosystem and the connections inside of that, as well as what are the opportunities on the protocol level for Bitcoin. So can you talk a little bit about, you know, what you why somebody who's considering an investment in this protocol should focus on a specialist rather than a generalist. I think

Nico: 27:24

this is a really good point that you bring up. So for us, one of the best things that we have done has been very, very specific about like, what is an ego death investment? So from fund one, we specialize at a seed stage of deploying capital at that and looking to lead deals. From fund two, we see this opportunity to step in at a series a stage. We're only looking at investing in technology companies that are building on top of Bitcoin. We're not investing any hardware or any mining, and because of that, we're able to craft our intelligence based on that. So we have two of the most esteemed developers in the space of Pablo Ferrand and Lisa nega that feedback. This is what the developer community in Bitcoin are talking about when we're evaluating a project. We're then going out to all of our different contacts within the ecosystem to make sure this we don't have a blind spot with this. To evaluate the project, look at the weeks points of it, see if that's understood, see if the other developers in the space are excited about it. One of the key things that I think is about Bitcoin is the open source nature of it and the open source nature of the projects. What does that mean? That means that if other developers outside of your company and are not excited about what you're building, like, there's not going to be any developer interest, and you're basically have to create network effects yourself. What happens? What we've seen with generalist VCs, or crypto VCs that come into this space, and these guys have made a lot of money, and so they have a lot of like stripes on their belt, and they're looking for pattern recognition. This is something that Alex just brought up, that they have seen in other spaces, especially if they want to play earlier. So for them, if they see something that mimics a technology that has been built on Ethereum or Solana, or interacts with other technology companies that they have invested in in those other ecosystems, the pattern to them matches their mental model of that. I think the the how we would push back a little bit harder on that is, if you want to deploy capital in Bitcoin, you have to be so deep on Bitcoin, and Bitcoin developers and the Bitcoin ecosystem understand if that thing is going to fundamentally work. Just because you provide a new space where something in Ethereum can play potentially with Bitcoin doesn't mean that Bitcoiners or anybody in Bitcoin will actually utilize that thing. And so that's where I think that the value add of funds, like a time chain or ego death, is we provide this intelligence, and then the exposure to these investments that would be very, very tough to do on your

Alex: 29:59

own. Right. Yeah, look, Bitcoin is a philosophy and an ideology as well as anything else, and you really have to understand that if you're going to fall in a way that makes sense for the ecosystem and that other bitcoin is going to appreciate and want to use. So if you're a if you're a crypto fund coming into Bitcoin, you're going to get that wrong, because you don't understand the philosophy, ideology, the economic principles that underpin the Bitcoin Economy in itself, and obviously we think that we have a good handle on that. And if you're a generalist fund, you'll probably make some of the similar mistakes, because what's monetized historically has been the stuff in the crypto space where they've been selling tokens, and that just obviously doesn't fly in Bitcoin. So you know, I think these generalist funds increasingly look to lean on funds like us to figure out where they should deploy capital in the Bitcoin space. And it helps that a lot of the businesses that we've funded to speak for themselves in terms of, you know, traction and metrics and just a sort of general development of the business.

Israel: 31:01

Yeah, well, well, thanks for thanks for that, that framing and, you know, maybe, maybe stepping into a broader look of where we are in in the industry, for for builders in the space, it's been very hard in the recent years, you know, due to maybe regulatory or other hurdles to to kind of grind through this, this company building, it seems like some of those headwinds are, are perhaps turning into tailwinds now, but you know, we're certainly not in the clear. What you know? What do you hear from founders Nico and Alex, as far as, where are the hurdles? Where are the challenges? I mean, from an entrepreneur's perspective, give us an idea of what it's like from, from, you know, from the portfolio companies that you all have close relationships with to be building on this protocol. Can I

Alex: 31:53

just offer just a quick thought here, and I'll keep for Nico stake on this as well, which is like, I know we have a different administration in the United States now, obviously, and it's probably going to be more friendly to people building on top of Bitcoin. But I never really met a bitcoiner who or somebody who was thinking about Bitcoin, who was waiting for the government's clearance to do it, you know, like it's, it's kind of like a nice to have, but it never really stopped anyone. Historically, we have certain companies who maybe didn't offer their products to United States customers because of concerns over the regulatory regime, but it was never like something that blocked them building the thing in the first place. You know, I think Bitcoin is a kind of built slightly different in that we're not really waiting for permission for from like a government authority, to go out and build something. But I don't know if Nico you share, you share that view.

Nico: 32:53

I think that your best entrepreneurs have that mindset, right? They're like, break shit, move fast. Regulation will figure itself out, and it'll catch up with me, like you saw with Uber, Uber, like geo blocking the regulators that were investigating Uber at some point. And I think the fundamental difference, though, of like that, versus like a slap on the wrist fine when the company is different, that I think that scared the shit out of a lot of developers in the space was when the samurai wallet guys were arrested, and there was, like, this lack of clarity of the KYC that you potentially had to have with some of the protocols in the space. It was just like, fundamentally not possible. And so I think that that the difference being of like you being arrested versus you getting a slap on the wrist fine, are two different things of, kind of the the the fear associated with that and kind of stepping out, I would say, with the newer administration, whether you like it or not, like the that fear is gone. It's it's largely gone away, I think, to Alex's point now, you go back to how it was historically, of like, if I'm playing in a gray area, the repercussion for doing that until the regulatory and regulation figures itself out, because a lot of these technologies are ahead of the curve of where any current law is, and historically, what would happen is the law would figure that out, they'd come to some agreement, and the technology company would continue to exist. I think that that's more of the environment that we're in right now. And now you're back to like the entrepreneur being like, I'm very comfortable pushing the boundary of where these things are at. But I I love Alex's point of like the entrepreneur just saying, Well, fuck it. I'm going to

Israel: 34:41

build, yeah, that, you know, it kind of reminds me, your opening speaker also kind of said, We've never stopped doing what we've been doing for years. And they're, they're big players, of course, and would to the regulatory aspect what what he mentioned was before it. Was, it was just more so a nuance. It was annoying. It never stopped us, but it was certainly very annoying. And now it seems like maybe that, that comfort level you're speaking to Nico will will at least improve the pace. I mean, it's, it's certainly will be interesting to see how you know, how the startup ecosystem kind of continues, doing its thing over, over the next few years, but, yeah, just wanted to get your take on, you know, as an industry where, where do you, where you feel we are, right? I mean, are there any other still, I mean, non regulatory or government related challenges or hurdles that that you still think are are very present or tough to work through for for a startup building on this protocol, anything on the technology side that's still, you know, not quite there for some business models or what other, I guess, hurdles Do you see?

Alex: 35:52

This doesn't sort of directly answer your question. It's slightly different. But I think a big development was the ability of banks to be able to custody Bitcoin, I guess, other digital assets as well, but in particular Bitcoin, which is where I guess we would expect the vast majority of interest to be, that should throw up a whole range of of innovation around financial products. And you know, hopefully they use some of the tech stack that likes of ego, death and time chain have funded, do that quickly. You know, they might try to build that in house. I think they'll find it quite challenging. And so, you know, we've been funding a lot of the infrastructure that these guys can use over the last few years build out these financial products. And so we hope to see some engagement from financial institutions, I think, given this change in particular. So I think that was actually probably the biggest sort of development I've saw, at least since the since the ETF probably flew a little bit under the radar, but I think it's important.

Unknown: 36:57

I think it'll come to the forefront with somebody like my take. I have no intel on this, of like, anybody doing this on our side or anybody else. So this is Saab 121, 21 that Alex is speaking about, basically how digital assets are handled by financial institutions. I'm really curious on the first Bitcoin company that goes out and, like, buys a small bank for the banking licenses. So what we're talking about is, like, on the other side of it, of the bank, having to interact with them, which still provides a friction point. So if we look at historically like, Why can't old businesses that are decades old innovate quickly? It's because they're like, stuck in their their patterns, the mental models and the the fundamental just limited nature of those institutions now, they do have some, like, really interesting tools that some of our companies, like, would love to make use of. From like, a banking standpoint, I'm going to be fascinated when, like, one of the companies in the space goes out and just buys a small bank for the licenses. I think that'll happen. I haven't heard of anybody saying they're going to do it yet, but I think we're on the flip side of it. I think that that, to me, would be fundamentally more interesting than the the interaction. We're not there yet, but I don't think we're far off. I agree it's flawed. Sorry, go ahead. Lynne, no, go ahead. Alex, I was just saying we've

Alex: 38:21

actually explored trying to do that over the last couple of years, is you can buy, like regional banks in the US, and that they're not as expensive as you would think, but it came with so much regulatory overhead, and your ability to interact or do anything interesting on top of Bitcoin was so prohibitive that it's just like, it's honestly not worth hassle, which Is why that's so cheap. But now to Nico's point, as this stuff begins to change, or maybe that sort of thing becomes much more interesting, and you can design all sorts of financial products in and around Bitcoin that people like Chris would find, I would say, very compelling

Lynne Bairstow: 38:56

indeed. Yeah, I think that's kind of an inevitability, and especially with, you know, now, now that it looks like, I mean, we're in early February 2025, but the, you know, the what's being unveiled about the choke point 2.0 the very real restrictions and hurdles that were being put up for for banking, anything related to the crypto or digital asset group, if those barriers fall away, that's going to Open up a lot. I'm sure some of the regulatory hurdles just made it impossible to think about buying a bank. But there's that's a trajectory. I'm just kind of curious, because we've been focused in the last few minutes about of the conversation mainly on us, which is a big driver with the ETFs and institutional appetite and in regulatory perspective, but you guys both work globally. I mean, your companies that you're investing in, and Alex, your your parent VC fund is based in Europe. So how are you seeing rest of the world and and what might this more open regulatory environment in the US ripple effect have on Europe? Seems a little bit more restrictive, or other part LATAM, Africa, Asia, Pacific, other opportunities geographically that you think are particularly interesting.

Alex: 40:10

Yeah, to a couple of opening thoughts. You know, where the US leads. A lot of the world tends to follow, particularly Europe. So I would expect positive language developments across across Europe, and actually put in place something called a new regulatory regime called Rica, which allows companies to operate more fluidly across Europe, where previously that was basically prohibited, because you had to go state by state to get licenses for Bitcoin and crypto companies. So there are some positive developments in Europe. The macro of Europe is much more challenging. So that's, you know, that's, that's one sort of headwind. On the flip side, it means that people in Europe really need Bitcoin. So there's a, there's an opportunity there as well. I think I'd say about Bitcoin talent is that it is globally distributed. So you find really talented people pretty much in every geography across the planet. And we want to make sure at timeshare and ego death, that we find those guys and support them if they do want to build a Bitcoin company. And so that is really sort of important objective, objective for us. And we see, you know, emerging pockets of talent, I would say, in particular in places like Eastern Europe, maybe because they have a pretty challenging history of communism and oppression. And Bitcoin is a particularly strong answer to that parts of Latin America, obviously, Asia, I would say I personally, at least as I don't talk for Nico eager death has seen relatively disappointing output from Asia in terms of there's just not many people building on top of Bitcoin. One anecdote is a year and a half ago, I went to Bitcoin Bangalore, which is basically the biggest Bitcoin Conference in India, or at least, build us that sparse attendance. How many? 5200 people? Polygon India was a week for 20,000 people. And I think in part, it's because the polygon founders are Indian, and then Balaji was giving it some hype on Twitter, which meant that it got good attendance. But Bitcoin penetration in Asia strikes me as very underrepresented. There are relatively few Bitcoin only companies. I think that needs to be addressed. So it'll be a focus for us in subsequent funds to try and find and support Bitcoin entrepreneurs building tools and solutions for Bitcoiners in Asia. It's also a good opportunity for Western companies who might want to exploit

Lynne Bairstow: 42:31

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Unknown: 43:12

of the things with Asia. So I think the two, two points that I would love to like build on with Alex, one of the points is you have to look at like the historical scar tissue of any type of area of the country. So even, like we have a portfolio company, time chain, ego death in Brazil. And so Brazil right now, while there's not like hyperinflation, we're not too far off of that. So the generation before the current like youth, so people in their 20s call it their parents are very, very exposed to a hyper inflation and environment in Brazil, and that scar tissue permeates to the to the younger generation. Like, I'm sure that if anybody's parents have gone through any degree of a depression or economic downturn, like you still have those, those things that your parents say to you in your head, and it affects your behavior patterns. What happens, I think, in those areas of Eastern Europe with communism or LATAM that have this hyperinflation type environment that's not far removed, is that you get these interesting builders, and you have, like, Bitcoin that's attached in more of like, a NEO banking form outside of the traditional system. So a company like BIPA is like, very, very exciting in Brazil, with Asia, depending on the region, what we've seen is that you have a much more like gambling environment, right? Like the cultural conditioning, how it has been historically, even with like luck, if you were to go to Macau or go to Vegas when it is populated, is their viewpoint on luck and how gambling actually plays out is much more in line with the tokens in the broader crypto sphere, and so that's been like a much more interesting area for them in this space, it's not solving the real world problem that. Like Alex and I are talking about, it's not, it's not, doesn't have the scar tissue from these, these previous hyperinflations. They see it as a casino that they can play with. And for them, that's, that's what they want. I would say the the other part of Asia that becomes really interesting that you guys hit on of like these companies being global, is that in Southeast Asia, particularly in Singapore, there's actually a pretty clear regulatory framework and place that you could put a sub. And I think what, what will end up happening with some of these companies in the space that are successful, and you start to reach into these other regions, particularly, particularly like a trading company in the space. You'll put a sub in one of these regions, because the regulation is clear. That's what I like kind of see happening. We would love to have more exposure to companies in Asia or Southeast Asia at this point, but haven't seen it to date.

Israel: 45:55

Yeah, interesting. I wasn't aware of that, of that gap that you're both speaking to in Asia Pacific shifting gears a little bit Alex and Nico, and this is maybe meant more towards perhaps an entrepreneur listening. You both evaluate hundreds of companies per year, what makes a startup stand out, and maybe on the other end, what are some of the potential issues or red flags you see for an entrepreneur looking for early stage funding in this sector, we look

Unknown: 46:26

for like product driven founders, so a founder that's felt like a problem in their own life and that they are looking to solve that problem, that problem though, It can't just be enough that the that that that is the first qualification, like we you need a relatively big enough market size for this to work. So generally, in like venture capital, you're looking for, like, an addressable market of a billion plus, right? Because even if we're off or you don't seize, you can seize a few percentage points on that, and the company can still be relatively successful. We want right out of the gate like that, you're offering something that's an order of magnitude better from a solution standpoint than anything else in the world. Forget Bitcoin, right? We don't want you to compete with Bitcoin companies, so it's not exciting. Are you competing with the world? And the reason why, like an order of magnitude so a 10x differentiator is you're looking to change your behavioral pattern, probably, or have something fit in the back of some other piece of technology. And in order for that to happen, if it's just like 10, 15% better, people won't change their behavioral pattern. But if something's in order of magnitude better, like that, that behavioral pattern changes. It needs to be solving like a real world problem today, and we need to be able to generate money revenue 18 months out from a seed stage of like one to $3 million is like what we'd like to do. There's a whole other host of like qualification or qualities that we look for from like any entrepreneur and the company standpoint that we do with a screener. But I'd love to just give the floor to Alex and let him go from here.

Alex: 48:09

I think you put that really well. The only couple of additional thoughts I'd add is, if you're if you if you're a founder, and you decide to build on top of Bitcoin, you're already sort of set yourself aside from the pack. Like, you're already probably a pretty special person to have decided to do that, especially historically, because it was much easier to monetize in other areas, you know, like, I don't wanna talk about crypto again, but if you are a talented founder, and you started to build a cutting edge of Financial Services Technology and then came across this thing called crypto, you'd probably get a free grant from some sort of crypto Foundation, the ability to launch a token again, liquidity in 18 months. If you've neglected all that that sort of cheap and easy money and decided to build something on Bitcoin, it means that you are sort of committed to this project for some really deep seated reasons, and that tells us something about you. So it's already a massive win that you decided to build on top of Bitcoin. The other thing to say is, for us, we tend to be really founder driven. I've been really lucky to have worked very, very closely from basically the genesis of two companies that went on beat billion dollar companies, and with the founders of those companies. So just seeing what it takes being on the startup side as well, like Biko, building these companies, and it's just really difficult. So there has to be something that's motivating you that is so deep seated that it will get you through the pain of building a really big business over 10 years. I mean, I cannot express how difficult it is to make it through that journey in one piece, have the motivation to do it. So we're really just looking for that fire within that person or that founding team, ideally, that will push them through those, those those hard times.

Lynne Bairstow: 49:58

So for. Share this thing like that, and also from the startup or founder perspective, where are you guys in terms of liquidity for your fund? Both of you have Alex, I know you're raising a second fund now, but how is your availability of funds or the immediacy of funds right now? And can you talk about, I mean, both of you, like Nico, I think you your ego death has completed Part of the raise of the second fund. Maybe you're completely full at this time. But where are you in the fund? Development of your of your venture firms

Alex: 50:34

quickly start. So we're still deploying the first funds. We've made 18 investments. Actually, number 19. We'll get to 21 for some reason, always just worked out that way. And we did commence the raising of the of the second fund as well. So time chain two, I'll be roughly a $50 million vehicle deploying pre seed series a Bitcoin only companies, alongside our friends here at Eagle, hopefully, and again, that process started a few days ago, actually, so we're in the process of making comments.

Unknown: 51:07

Congratulations. Alex, awesome. It's really exciting. We are on our second fund. We still have like one more portfolio company to put in the first fund, so we're still looking for, like a seed stage company to lead. We have capital that we have follow on, followed on. So we have nine portfolio companies. And fund one, we are raising fund two. So publicly, there has been, I think, on the form d, like 41 was the first close. We have 6060, to 70. That's like, verbally, we're getting through diligence right now, and then we're still raising the rest of the fund. So we're targeting fund two to be$100 million vehicle. We think that that's right for deploying into the the series a space right now. So you have a three to four year investment horizon trying to get two to three portfolio companies that you're going to lead a year from a series a perspective, we already have one public we did their round with time. Chain relay was the first series, a company out of ego, deaths. Second fund couldn't be more excited about Julian and the rest of the team there. Is phenomenal vodka.

Lynne Bairstow: 52:22

I love that you guys are working together. And it does feel that the Bitcoin venture ecosystem is so small and tight yet that there's a lot of CO investing going on and sharing of information. So, I mean, I just think that's, I don't know, coming out of traditional venture capitalists are refreshing a return to the foundational values of venture capital. And then, so, how do you, I mean, how do you guys approach? I mean, do you look for lead investing? I know Nico, your second fund with ego death is, is more of a series, a so that would be follow on rounds. Or what is your kind of portfolio makeup for that. And Alex, maybe actually, I'd love to hear if your second fund is going to follow the same trajectory or thesis as your first fund, where you'll be primarily early stage, or if that is being raised to kind of further make commitments to the to the to the first round.

Unknown: 53:17

I'll let Nico, so we love, like leading routes. We so like the first fund that we put together, we raised 25 point 2 million for the first fund. And the belief from our standpoint, and we designed the fund to really be this institutional organization. So we have a lot of bodies that ego death of Andy Pitt, Jeff booth myself, founded fund one. We had Preston pitch and Lynne Alden as advisors, in addition to Pablo Fernandez's tech advisor so fund two, we brought on Preston and Lynne as additional general partners. But the belief was, is that we wanted to lead routes. We wanted to go out and grab these companies and be able to structure the terms of the raise and really get the ear of the entrepreneur and like build alongside them. There are phenomenal other like seed stage funds in the space. And what we really, really saw lacking as we spent a little bit more time in the space was there wasn't a go to series, a fund that was going to do the same thing, but a series a fund and then hand it off to these other growth stage funds, like Alex was saying that have pattern recognition of the generalist funds as soon as the metrics get big enough. And so we wanted to step in. And the key reason of bringing on Lynne and Preston in more full time roles and Pete Bricker, who's the chairman of fortress and an investor in fund one, but him is like an advisor, was that we wanted to go out and lead 10 series A investments from Buntu. We still will have exposure to the seed, but we want to be more let other funds take the lead role with that, and then there's a portion of that fund always to follow on into your leading investments. But to us, it's really, really key. That if you have conviction and investment that you're leading or CO leading that investment, just because you're not going to be able to have the influence we believe, with the entrepreneur unless you're doing that.

Alex: 55:12

Yeah, I think Nico's absolutely right in his characterization of the space. There is a defcent capital at the series, a space and an ego death is just sort of primed so well to take advantage of that and lead those a rounds. If you're a Bitcoin founder, then there's not really a better fund to go to to read that a round where we bet time changes probably slightly earlier. So we'll do some pre see tickets in with founders that we know really well, or or in sectors where we have particular interest, or for like, you know, particularly advanced knowledge, or can accelerate their growth in some way through some sort of business development connections that we might have through the legacy concentric portfolio. But more often than not, we'll play at the seed round, perhaps to lead, or have to co lead, have to play at the sort of series A stage as well. But I think rarely in a lead scenario, perhaps a co lead for certain companies alongside ego deaths, but more often than not, will be in a follow capacity in that series A stage. So really focus more on leading seed rounds globally, not just in the United States. We understand a pretty advanced network in Europe and Africa through concentric where we sort of deployed many funds before, so that's a particular focus. And then sort of supporting the sort of grass, grassroots growth of the Bitcoin ecosystem in places like Asia, I would expect to be a particular focus for our second fund, as long as we can find those, those entrepreneurs as well. So think that's probably how we're thinking about the deployment of that that second fund,

Unknown: 56:42

I would say this too, like we're both value added investors, like we sit on multiple boards with Alex, and he's just, in addition to being like an incredible investor of how he thinks about like portfolio allocation, he's very, very helpful with the the entrepreneurs. And so there's, like, the reps that you have from a vehicle like concentric and that you can lean into for those learnings and helping to guide the entrepreneurs along their journey, I think, is really, really key. And so where we like to sit with, like, both of our funds, and we work really, really well with, with time chain, is we want to be a helpful partner. Like a lot of ways that we at frame capital when we're talking to entrepreneurs is you should look at a good capital provider as a partner to the business that is additionally bringing money. And if that's not happening and you're just getting dumb money, then you should probably be looking other places, because you have this real opportunity to create a win for you and a win for the capital provider. If you have a value add investor. And so it's amazing to invest with somebody like time chain, and be able to to have that same alignment with the relationship.

Alex: 57:51

Oh, it's interesting, right? Because a lot of these Bitcoin companies that we're invested in, they have these Bitcoin treasuries, which we were talking about before. And so they actually have optionality. They don't have to take money. And so as a venture fund, if you're coming to them and you want to invest, I mean, you've got to breed something above and beyond just the money. And so it's a bit of a cliche, but venture funds would always say, you know, where in like traditional ventures, funds would always say, you know, you'd be value add investors. We try to do stuff other than just add money. But in the Bitcoin space, you actually have to do that, because otherwise, you know, the companies, they just don't have to take your money, because they're not running out of it, because have these Bitcoin treasuries, which are growing at the pace of Bitcoin, and more often than not, they'll be cash deposited too. So it, it's actually quite a nice essentially, incentives, I guess, or the structure of the venture funds in the first place, and forces us all to be sort of better funds and better partners for these for these companies, which I think is very healthy.

Lynne Bairstow: 58:51

I think also you guys have a perspective into all the different startups and the evolution of the technology like taproot assets and some of the things that are enabling more flexibility of options of building on, on the Bitcoin protocol, and a founder might be in their silo of what they're working on, and they not, may not have that visibility into some of the different tools and and expansions of this that you would have by working, you know, by seeing pitches and by working with Different companies, so you can bring to them partnerships or, you know, alliances, or ideas of how they should be looking at it too. So I can see where, in getting back to our earlier question about, why would you know? Well, why would an investor want to be focused on a Bitcoin only venture fund? Entrepreneurs also, I think, stand to benefit in that broader sense of more than money, of really having a value added partner with them along the way.

Israel: 59:47

Yeah, that true partnership, you, you, you've all mentioned, is just so important and so so value creative at the end of the day as well, right? So, I mean, I guess any, any founder list. Listening, definitely get in touch with with the these two funds or teams. I mean, do you guys? I mean, congrats on everything you're you're doing at time chain and ego death, Nico and Alex, because it really is impressive and just kind of, in a way, also inspirational to see, because lots of these companies are the foundations of that kind of future Bitcoin economy, and it's great to just see it being built with such a great group of people and in good hands. And at the end of the day, the results are kind of speaking for themselves. But you know, maybe conscious of time as well, as we begin to wrap up, we started off with the Bitcoin Economy event. So I'd like to kind of circle back to that. There was just such fantastic content from there. And I know there has been some, I believe I've seen on X, some publications of some of the talks. If anyone's interested, is there any material from that specific event, Alex and eco that you can point them to. And then, I guess, second to that, you know, what's the best way to get in touch with time chain and ego death in general?

Unknown: 1:01:12

I think Preston dropped his sock on x, which is what you saw. I think we're looking at cutting Lynne's portion, that she did with Preston, and dropping that, and I think that that'll come out. I some of the company information that was shared in there, we're not going to share, just because of the the confidential nature of it, but we will release that I, Alex gave a great talk. I got to think about like, if there was anything in that talk that we wouldn't want to share, but you're probably more knowledgeable on that,

Alex: 1:01:48

so I give a brief talk on the Bitcoin economy from a venture landscape. So it's some of the stuff that we discussed out in this conversation. I think it's fine, so we'll probably post that on Twitter, but we'll give it a quick review. And then, yeah, if you go to Preston's Twitter, you'll see his talk. You know, they talk on MicroStrategy. So, so, yeah, we'll put that out there in terms of getting in touch. I'm at you can just email me alex@concentric.bc or you can find me on Twitter, where I'm usually just trolling British politicians. So it's probably not the most informative feed, but it's Alex underscore, sing, s, I N, G, H, underscore, man, M, a, double N, or just as I say, email, Alex concentric, you can reach

Lynne Bairstow: 1:02:29

out all these links in the show notes too. So if anyone's listening or watching on YouTube, we'll make sure that you'll have to write it down. We'll have these handy for you.

Unknown: 1:02:39

Yeah, I was gonna say you could go to our website. There's a contact form there, or you can just have contact at Ego Death dot capital or in the show. Links probably make it easier, but thank you guys. Thanks Lynne, thanks Israel for having

Alex: 1:02:52

us. Yeah, I really appreciate it. Congrats on the success of the podcast.

Lynne Bairstow: 1:02:55

It's been great. Yeah, no, it's our pleasure, and we really appreciate this and and as we mentioned the first time each of you are on individually. We this is such a great forum for just kind of getting caught up in your perspective collectively. Is is great to see where it's growing and advancing in the Bitcoin venture landscape. So we'll look forward to having you back again in the future. You Lynne, thanks for listening to the build with Bitcoin podcast. If you found benefit in what you heard in this episode, we'd truly appreciate it. If you would like share or leave a comment on whichever platform you're listening as this helps others find us, which is especially important for a new podcast. And as a reminder, our content is intended for educational and entertainment purposes only, and is not to be considered investment advice or recommendation to invest in any company or asset mentioned in the podcast. Build with Bitcoin is a proud affiliate partner of river, a full service 100% reserve custody Bitcoin only financial services company for your next Bitcoin purchase, use our exclusive link partner.river.com/build, with Bitcoin. Thank you sincerely for being a part of the build with Bitcoin community.