065 - Bitcoin's Bright Future: Policy Shifts and Insurance Solutions with AnchorWatch's Becca Rubenfeld

In this episode, hosts Lynne and Israel welcome back Becca from AnchorWatch to discuss the recent US policy changes regarding the consideration of Bitcoin as an asset for loanworthiness. Becca explains how this shift impacts Bitcoin holders and the lending landscape. The conversation delves into AnchorWatch's innovative insurance solutions for Bitcoin, the risks associated with wrench attacks, and the company's plans to register as an exchange. Additionally, Becca highlights the importance of inheritance planning for Bitcoin holders and how AnchorWatch facilitates this process for their clients.

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Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Welcome Back
02:30 Impact of New US Policy
06:21 AnchorWatch's Role in Bitcoin Insurance
13:51 Navigating Regulatory Guidance
18:31 Bitcoin's Legitimacy as an Asset Class
25:21 AnchorWatch's Exchange Registration and Services
30:59 Understanding Wrench Attacks and Security Risks
40:25 Understanding Data Breaches in Cryptocurrency Exchanges
46:25 Innovative Custody Models and Risk Mitigation
54:55 Streamlined Inheritance Solutions for Bitcoin Holders
01:12:39 Perspectives on Wealth and Security

References
https://www.anchorwatch.com/
https://x.com/BeccaAmilee

https://www.buildwithbitcoin.xyz/
https://x.com/BuildwBitcoin
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❗ DISCLAIMER: This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any decisions consult a professional.

Transcript

Becca: 0:00

We are still providing everything in terms of the spirits of the guidance, so we're a regulated institution. We hold keys. We're a required signer, which means the collateral cannot just disappear. The customer, even if they wanted to commit fraud, would have a very, very hard time doing it. And we provide the attestations. We provide all the proof, and then in terms of the letter of the guidance, we are simply just going to become a regulated exchange if, if that's how the guidance holds up over time, it is not a major hurdle. Actually, I

Israel: 0:43

you, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, two massive players in the mortgage industry have recently been guided to begin considering Bitcoin and crypto holdings when assessing a borrower's credit worthiness. So what does this all mean, and how is anchor watch well positioned to serve their clients, improving and attesting to their assets, we have a discussion today with co founder of anchor watch Becca rubenfeld. Becca takes us through the impact of these recent news as well as some of the other updates from the anchor watch team regarding new product offerings and how they are able to handle inheritance planning for their customers. As a reminder, this podcast is for educational purposes only. If you enjoy the content, please remember to subscribe and share as This all helps us grow. Lynne and Israel are partners at Bayer advisors, where we use our extensive network of venture capital firms and startup founders to connect investors with unique opportunities within the Bitcoin innovation space. Alongside this, we help founders with their fundraising and strategic growth. Visit our website's Advisory Services section to learn more. Welcome to build with Bitcoin. I'm co host irael Munoz joined with co host Lynne Bairstow today we have the pleasure of welcoming back on to the podcast. Becca from anchor watch. Happy to have you on.

Becca: 1:55

Thanks for having me back on. You guys were my very first live podcast previously, so excited to be back on now that I've done a few reps,

Lynne Bairstow: 2:04

we were excited to have you on right when anchor watch Law launch, which was about seven months ago now. And so, yeah, we wanted to invite you back to give us an update on how anchor watch is. But before we get into that part of the conversation, specifically, you know, we were really interested in seeing the news last week that was issued by some, some policy guidelines issued by the US, Federal Housing Finance Agency, which now allows, and it's a shift from what their prior stance was, but allows For crypto, broadly, Bitcoin, particularly, to be counted as assets when judging the worthiness of a loan. So we thought, Who would know better than this, than you? Because we also saw a tweet that anchor watch had put out just talking about the fact that in your protocol and in your offering, you're already offering the sort of a policy guideline or a guarantee, a statement of attestation of assets. So without us getting into it, I'll just turn it over to you, Becca, and maybe you can share with us what your understanding is of this new policy change and the guidelines and how you're viewing it. As anchor

Becca: 3:17

watch, right? So I mean, very, very topical this week. I think it's a super exciting development for Bitcoin owners. So I mean, in terms of teeing up the problem that a lot of people with Bitcoin have is that they have maybe a significant portion of their wealth in Bitcoin. Maybe they have a Fiat job and Fiat income, but because of their either their income or their level of assets, they feel very comfortable holding a mortgage of a certain level. And currently with the pro with prior to this guidance, the crypto holdings, the Bitcoin holdings that they had, were not really being taken into account whatsoever in terms of of their worthiness as a borrower. And so they were really just being kind of held back from a potential loan that they could get. And so the result is that either they just have to sell Bitcoin to buy a home, and so they're paying gains tax just to be able to make that purchase, or they're just being forced into a financial situation that doesn't match their reality. So that was kind of the problem. So I think it was a great development, really, in the right direction to see that Pulte put out this letter saying that now Bitcoin and crypto, but Bitcoin can be, you know, taken into account. So that's kind of the setup. Then as you get into the details of the letter. It's, it's simply guidance. So this is not a law. This is not, you know, a hard and fast way, but this is the guidance that banks would look at in terms of if they, you know, will follow specifically it's going, if it's going to be using Freddie May. Uh, Freddie or Fannie. So the, I would say, the one thing that we would call out as something that we want to explore more deeply is the statement that says the cryptocurrency can only be kind of counted if it's held at a centralized, regulated exchange. And so that was very interesting to us. So if I back up a step and explain, kind of how anchor watch approaches this, and how we already were approaching it, and then how we're reading this guidance today. So with anchor watch, you know, we provide insurance on on Bitcoin, and that one of our theses on building the company is that at some point, banks will either allow Bitcoin to be considered as collateral, or will specifically do Bitcoin backed loans. They'll loan against the Bitcoin as collateral, directly outside of a mortgage loan, but more traditional loan, and in either case, what we expected is that when the banking industry develops to that point, that they would want to see that collateral insured, because that's how they view other collateral. So if they're letting you buy the home, but the the terms of the mortgage say that, okay, before you close on the home, you have to prove that you have purchased homeowners insurance on it, so we're willing to accept the house as collateral, so long as it has been insured against loss and and that's all detailed in your mortgage documents and in your insurance documents. And if the house burns down or you don't pay your bills like there's very specific stipulations on how that insurance kind of interacts with the bank in any of those situations. So anchor watch, saw this a long time ago and just said that, look, we, we think that is where the industry would go. It just it follows logic that banks will want to see insurance on it. And so we just proactively enabled that on the customer side. So we already have customers who are using us for custody insurance, who have organized a private loan, so a Bitcoin backed private loan. And so we're working with banks today on that. And so this is really just the next step of that. And so what we provide currently is in our customer dashboard. So if you're a customer of anchor, watch at any point in time you can pull an attestation of your Bitcoin. And so what an attestation is, is a cryptographic proof more or less that is saying that, hey, at this moment of time, we are checking the utxo of your particular Bitcoin, and we are proving that as of this moment on chain, it is where we say it is this amount of bitcoin is in this particular utxo. It's proven. It's current as of this second. So that is what the attestation itself is that technically and then really, the statement is just the statements. It's, it's PDF document that more or less takes anchor, watches, you know, status as a service provider and a regulated entity, to say, hey, and it's our platform right to say that, look, we're the ones that pulled the attestation, and we verify that at this moment in time that this client has this amount of bitcoin, and we'll stand behind that, because we're the ones that checked it. And then we can go one step farther, and if the client maybe their bank wants to remove the chance of the client kind of interfering. They can request that we send the certified letter directly to the bank, but it's same thing. It's, it's a simple statement, so I don't want to over, over, complicate it, or make, make it sound like this is magic, right? Like we're checking on chain and then we are putting our name behind it to say that we the service provider anchor watch and a regulated company, we vouch for this, and we can prove as of this moment. And so one, I mean, I think really, everybody, every company that provides any sort of custody for their clients. I mean, I think it's a very easy thing to implement, so I do not mind sharing that secret sauce with others, because it's not a super advanced idea. It's very straightforward. Saying, Look, we're holding the Bitcoin, or we're helping you to hold the Bitcoin. So we're happy to create that statement. So that already existed. And so now we have a new question, which is, okay, this guidance says that it must be in a centralized, regulated exchange. So what does that mean? And what did they intend it to mean? Because I really view this as a first a first communication. So I think it's super bullish. Even though we need to work with them, we as an industry, need to work with them, I think, to clarify some of the language. Yeah. So one, I think the use of the word centralized. So what do we think they intended by that statement? I think initially my my thought is a centralized exchange versus a Dex right versus a decentralized exchange. And if you think about what the regulators are trying to get at. And what the bankers are trying to get at is they're trying to get at security for themselves, right? They're trying to get some sort of assurance that the Bitcoin being used, that as collateral is not going to disappear like that in an unexplained way. They're they're trying to make sure that it's sitting there where it's expected, and it is actually acting as collateral. And so if we just take kind of that lens, then actually calling for the word centralized versus decentralized in the context of an exchange, I would say makes sense in the spirits of what I think they were going for. Next word is exchange, right? So why? Why would you use the word exchange versus custodian? Because a custodian who does not act as an exchange certainly can provide the same assurances to the bank that a exchange could right. If your business is to hold the customer's Bitcoin and then enable exchange activity. The this guidance is saying, Okay, we trust you as an entity to verify that the collateral is sitting there. So why wouldn't they feel the exact same confidence? If it's a different business who holds the Bitcoin as a custodian, doesn't provide exchange capabilities, but does hold it safe and sound in this manner. And so I interpret that honestly as just a developing understanding. You could look at it maybe as lobbying by the major exchanges. So that's very possible that, like some of the you know, the large exchanges did that, but also remember that most of the exchanges also have a custodian subsidiary within it, and so I suspect you know they're also eyeing this carefully and saying, Well, if our parent company does both, does this guidance mean that the customer's Bitcoin needs to be on the Exchange account versus in our custodian account, our trust account? Yes or no, and so those kind of things are not actually clear yet. But again, I take that as relatively bullish, because I think they're on the right track. I think while we would all love pure Self custody to be viewed as just as meaningful to the banks, as some sort of centralized custody. I mean, I think that's what most people who hold Bitcoin and self custody would want. I, at least at this point, am I accept that it's a process to get there with the institutions. We see the same thing in insurance. Right when anchor watch started, I think last time I was on the show, we talked about the origins of the company, and the origin of the company was retail, self custody insurance. You hold your wallets, nothing unique. You can get insurance on it. And what we found from the traditional insurance industry is they weren't quite ready for that, right? So anchor Watch has brought it to really enhance self custody using miniscript, where we share custody with the clients while insured, and then it kind of reverts to pure Self custody. And we were successful in getting this enhanced self custody insured, but we, we are not all the way towards self custody yet on the insurance side. And so to me, this, this guidance on mortgages, is kind of the same direction. I think I'm very encouraged that they're actually looking at it, that they're actually providing guidance. I don't like the term centralized exchange. I hope we'll be able to improve on that. But then in terms of what anchor watch is doing today, so today, this and how we're working with banks today is, again, customer holds their own keys absolutely like their own private keys, but anchor watch also holds keys, and we're both required signers while insured. And so in terms of the spirit of the guidance, we are still providing everything in terms of the spirits of the guidance. So we're a regulated institution. We hold keys. We're a required signer, which means the collateral cannot just disappear. The customer, even if they wanted to commit fraud, would have a very, very hard time doing it. And we provide the attestations. We provide all the proof. And. I think, in terms of the spirit of what they're going after, actually we are really satisfying the spirit of it, and then in terms of the letter of the guidance, we are simply just going to become a regulated exchange, if that's how the guidance holds up over time. It is not a major hurdle, actually, from a regulatory standpoint, to turn that on. I mean, there is a cost and time element to it, but we'll just, we'll just close that gap to make sure that we meet, we meet the regulators where they are, and that coming out of that we are, what we think is still the closest thing to self custody that can enable people to utilize their Bitcoin this

Lynne Bairstow: 15:42

way. Becca, I just, I just want to clarify one point. I know you said it could be an evolution, but at the moment, they're really only talking about consideration for risk assessment for mortgage loans and not yet collateral is that? Is that accurate? So right now, I mean, you're, you're just forward thinking and saying, we're going to be ready to to handle the collateral. Aspect is, should it occur? But at the moment, it's just, can you qualify for the loan? Or what is your risk profile for the loan?

Becca: 16:11

You're correct on this guidance. So I was conflating kind of two issues, the Bitcoin back loan concept, which we are working with banks today, and that is actually the collateral itself. And then you're right, this is guidance in terms of assessing the overall health of the client, and it is the latter. But either way, I think the services that we provide, the style of custody that we provide, and these assurances in terms of the regular attestations and everything that can be provided directly to the bank should satisfy that as well for assessing the health of a client.

Israel: 16:51

And just to put a little context on, you know, we're referring to this as guidelines, but for for those listeners who might not be as familiar with, you know what this all means. I just want to kind of contextualize because this is a massive step for the industry. We were Lynne and I were doing a little research as well when this all came out, and I was looking at the history of, you know, Fannie and Freddie looks like Fannie started from the first no deal, all the way back to the to the Great Depression, and then, you know, there's the long history since then. But fast forward, yeah, it is. And, you know, fast forward to today. And for listeners to just get a sense of how big of a weight in the industry, this regulator and these two entities have, I mean, as far as market share, from what I could find, Fannie and Freddie are directly supporting roughly 70% of the mortgage market and and what I found is that this is a $12 trillion market. This is the regulator who sets the standards for an absolutely massive industry diet, and now, and now they're saying this century, Bitcoin is is real, right? I mean, this is true money to be considered. So just to contextualize, I mean, some, some of the things where we're getting at here. I mean, you know, I 100% align with you. Becca, that I just interpret this as kind of the first step. And of course, there's lots of, you know, lots of things to be still defined. And you know how much, what percentage I remember when I was trying to qualify for a mortgage a few years back. I believe it was maybe, and I'm sure this very Of course, varies, you know, from institution to institution, but maybe 75% of my stocks is what of the value of stocks is what they Yeah? So, yeah, I'm sure we'll get, you know, some of these clear definitions, um, as things move forward, but what is absolutely clear is that Bitcoin is now being considered true money,

Becca: 18:55

legitimate, yeah, legitimate asset. It's great. It's one more thing that legitimizes Bitcoin as a as an asset class, and I think it's a symbol of the maturity and and, you know, my opinion is that, like the integration into tradfi is a gradual one, right? And this year has been big in that integration and a lot of fronts, right? There's a blending of assets, of Bitcoin and real estate across different companies in the space different models that are happening build

Israel: 19:26

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Becca: 19:46

with Bitcoin on the business side, it's definitely happening. So businesses are starting up, and they're blending Bitcoin and other traditional asset classes to you know, good effect for investors. It's good for adoption. Right? Because it allows maybe traditional investors, not Bitcoiners, but traditional tradfi investors, have had other asset classes, to start getting exposure to Bitcoin in a way that's very palatable from them, for them. And so then a letter like this, I just think, is from the other side. It's from the regulator side that's also legitimizing it. And so I think as just people are looking around, it stops being viewed as this dead asset, right? So I mean, if you're not a bitcoiner, if you're not fully kind of bought into the long term vision of Bitcoin, you're looking at it much more as what is the most advantageous asset class to hold. And yes, there's a number go up aspect to Bitcoin that's very attractive, but there's a long hold to get there, and a lot of investors are looking for different ways to, like, utilize their assets right to borrow against them, to just, you know, to prove that they're financially healthy, so they can buy a home, whatever it may be, but having a major portion of your wealth that actually impaired you, that's a that's a downside for adoption, right? So it's just, I think things like this just make it more and more palatable to normies, really, or Trad five people, or just people who have been considering adoption, you know, it makes them view it in a more open, open manner. I think,

Lynne Bairstow: 21:30

yeah. And I think the other, the other part of that is that bitcoins appreciation has been so significant, especially over time, that where it may have started out at a couple percent of your net worth now it could be, you know, 70 or 80% you know, should the trend continue? I mean, it just, I think that it does acknowledge that this can be a very considerable part of somebody's net worth and grant that. And we do, we do try not to be too US centric on our podcast, yeah, and even though this is a US policy change, we to Israel's point. You know, it does just give another touch point, which we've seen so many in 2025 that legitimizes Bitcoin. I mean, 2024 and 2025 where it's entering into more mainstream financial markets and and where the US tends to maybe start it follows elsewhere. So, yeah, I think that that's a good

Becca: 22:28

bullish, yeah, it's definitely a signal for sure. So I think is, I think what our regulators do absolutely signals to the rest of the world and where we are overly restrictive. You know, previously, I think that some other countries, especially smaller countries, they just follow suit. It's just, I think it's easier often, unless they're trying to do an actual strategy to attract Bitcoin to their industry, or do something very purposeful. There's, you know, obviously a few countries out there that have very focused strategies, but for the most part, I do think regulators look to us, regulators to kind of set the trend. So hopefully this will trickle around the world, and again, just people, people have more opportunity to get credit for for the assets that they have. You know, there's, there's another interesting thing, or timing wise, will be to see what happens this fall, I think, in terms of price action. You know, historically, since the beginning of Bitcoin, there's been this four year cycle. And while the details of any particular epoch vary a little bit one by one, the if you zoom way out, there's there's obviously a pattern, and it seems like with all the tradfi activity this year and last year, so all the Bitcoin Treasury companies, futures, options, like all these things that have come on over the last couple of years, the common opinion that I hear seems to be that that cycle will lessen over time, and maybe it's already done, right? That's, I'm not necessarily opining on that myself, but that's definitely what I'm hearing out there, is that's a very common view. I think it will be interesting to see with this guidance, or similar guidances that come out across the tradfi world over time. I think we'll be partially impacted by that, if you think about volatility and again, what is the bank trying to do? Right? The bank is trying to confirm that you have the funds to be good for your obligations. That's, that's what they're trying to do, and that's a valid thing to check, right? If they're going to lend money, they want to know that you're good for it. So, I mean, I just think that this is, it's a reasonable thing to look. At that volatility and to say, Okay, well, you have a million dollars of Bitcoin now, but we're looking at this chart, and we fully expect that to be$280,000 a Bitcoin a year from now. And that doesn't make us feel super comfortable, right? And so if, if the four year cycle actually kind of tapers off and we get into more of a grinding upwards thing. I actually think it, it makes guidance like this much, much easier for banks to get on board with, because then they're like, yep. I mean, for sure, any asset, and like Israel, you mentioned the equities, maybe it's 75% credit. So you know something, the reason they do those credits is to account for volatility, right? And so I could definitely see them doing something like that that says that assigns a number. Or maybe if, if it's a slow grind upward, then maybe they don't need to do less than 100% because it's, it's very dependable. So I think the price action over the next few years will actually impact how banks view

Lynne Bairstow: 26:03

this as well. Get back to something that didn't mean to just let you put that out there and not touch on have had anchor watch registering as an exchange. So tell us about that. Is that, is that news? Is that it is,

Becca: 26:17

I mean, kind of I wouldn't, yeah. So we already were and are imminently turning on exchange functionality, so meaning that we were partnering, will be partnering with another regulated exchange where the customer can buy sell within Trident, and it can go once it settles, the Bitcoin goes directly from that exchange account into their insured anchor watch account into cold storage. So kind of similar to what other providers have done, where you can buy bitcoin and it settles directly to cold storage, same premise, and we have been moving forward to use another exchanges, actual licenses to do that, and that's a perfectly good way to provide customers with that, with that access, with this guidance, we are just looking at doing the licenses ourselves. So if that will make the difference and enable our customers to utilize their Bitcoin that's already sitting very safely within our cold storage, then it is relatively a low lift for us to actually just grab that license ourselves and go about it that way. So we started the process to do that when we saw the guidance, really for the purpose of of meeting that guidance. And we think that legally, that the centralized concept is is not an issue, because we ourselves anchor, watch, we do hold our keys as a company. And you know, that's all provable on chain. And so I'm very, confident that how we do our business will will satisfy the requirements.

Israel: 28:04

Yeah, it certainly sounds like you guys are well positioned, you know, regardless on the final details, and you're kind of getting ahead of the curve. There Becca, but yeah, for listeners who are maybe not as familiar, and we do have an episode that we published in December, so you know, no need to get into all the details, but maybe now's a good moment to do a soft transition to anchor watch itself and the current services that you guys are providing customers. Yeah, give us a snapshot.

Becca: 28:33

Yep. So I mean, as the our primary service that's in market today is kind of what we've been speaking to, and it's this enhanced self custody that is up that can be fully insured up to the total value of your Bitcoin. So anchor watch is a Lloyd's of London cover holder. It means that we don't buy insurance that that we actually sell a custody policy that is fully backed by Lloyds of London. So it's the anchor watch policy, and it's it was built natively to integrate to our tech, and then the tech itself. And what's unique about anchor watch is that we do share custody while you're insured. So while we in Lloyds of London, have liability, anchor Watch has to sign a transaction. But we it's more advanced cold storage that has time locks. And so with time locks, what that means is that, over time, there are additional ways to spend the Bitcoin that can help us mitigate disaster if something goes very wrong. So if somebody is attacked, if they lose or damage a certain amount of keys, if they're you know, there's a kidnapping situation. If somebody passes away, there's all these different scenarios that, through the existence of the time locks in our vault, we can mitigate, really, the loss of the Bitcoin, and we can take something from what would have in a traditional legacy multisig arrangement would have been a loss, and instead, we can turn a loss of Bitcoin into a delay. Of access to your Bitcoin. And by using these time locked recovery options, we can we can help customers out. So we put together really a cohesive package that says, Okay, you are either protected from the tech, from what I just described, the time locks and the distribution of keys. There's a few places that you can poke holes in the tech, like, for example, a very well thought out and well executed wrench attack. A wrench attack can kind of get through, you know, a lot of security parameters, like, people have even within in pure Self custody. People have past phrases. People have decoy wallets. People have multi SIG. People do their things to mitigate. But is it perfectly mitigated? It's not right and so, and that's true, really, with the majority of security plans, because you put a gun to your own head, or your child's head, or whomever a loved one, and ultimately, you're probably going to give up the secrets, right? So the perfect plan does not remain perfect once you're in that situation. So our custody solution, we have built it to be absolutely as secure as possible anywhere that there are gaps or potential gaps, like wrench attacks, like anchor watch being a bad actor, right? Things like that that customers might still fear. We made sure that those are covered by the insurance policy. So we're covering you either by the tech, by Bitcoin, native l1 on chain technology, and we're plugging any remaining tail risks with regulated insurance from Lloyds of lemma.

Israel: 31:40

I encourage you. Highly encourage you to, you know, give a little more thought on what Becca just mentioned there, and you mentioned one scenario Becca, which we've unfortunately been hearing a little more of wrench attacks. Can you tell the listeners also what that is? If you've seen, you know, firsthand with customers, some some uptick in these incidents. And you know what to be aware of

Becca: 32:03

there? Yeah. So what a wrench attack is, is a that's just that colloquial phrase in the industry for really a kidnapping situation. So the the premise is that you can get through somebody's security with a, quote, $5 wrench. So you know, if you, you have any sort of weapon, right? That when you get up to somebody's clever security, again, we throw out pass phrases and decoy wallets and multi SIG and even advanced security, uh, you, you threaten somebody in the whole plan falls apart. So that's the concept of of the phrase of a $5 wrench attack. I'll hit you over the head with this $5 wrench, and you're going to give me all your money. So anytime you hear the phrase wrench attack, what we're talking about is violent theft. And so unfortunately, yes, there's been a huge uptick, not just very recently, but I'd say over the last 18 months or so that we've definitely seen an increase in activity in the United States, but especially in Europe, also Southeast Asia, but definitely within the first world, right within developed countries, where people are holding significant amounts of Bitcoin, there's definitely an uptick in these attacks. Most recently, the last, let's say, five to six months, there's definitely been a concentration in France. So it started with the ledger founder, who was kidnapped along with his partner, and I believe his finger was cut off immediately. And, you know, very terrifying situation and and this was all very public in the news, but that happened in Paris. And then there was a series of additional attacks located in Paris as well. But they do happen all over the world. They do happen in the United States. The interesting thing is that they're happening for all different wealth amounts. So the biggest, most news worthy ones tend to be large dollars, right? 10 million, 20 million, and those are the ones that have made the news, especially if they're very sensational. So a company founder being kidnapped, losing a finger, sensational makes the news, right? Some other guy in New York being tortured by the some crypto you know, King and torturing his business partner, very sensational. So gets picked up by the news, but if you actually look at the list of attacks and within Bitcoin, most people are familiar with Jameson LOPP, he maintains a really good database of publicized tax if you look through those details, you'll see that they are not all large dollar amounts, so unfortunately, people are getting targeted. Even if they have 10s of 1000s or hundreds of 1000s of dollars worth of bitcoin, you don't need to be ultra wealthy to become a target of these. And the other thing to note is that so anchor, watch, just recently, we haven't even started putting out advertising about. It. So you know, you guys are a little bit getting the scoop here, because we will soon start advertising it, but we've just started the ability to sell kidnap and Ransom policies, and those are a little different from our custody policy our wrench attack policy, which I'll explain. But as a result, we're getting a little more access to some of the information and some of the data on these reports. And while we can't ever go into detail on any specific incident that's not public, I can say that there's a lot more incidents than are public, right? And it makes sense. So if you if you were a victim of one, and they successfully got away with some of your Bitcoin, or even if they got away with all of it, but you survived right? The situation was resolved. Maybe a ransom was paid. Maybe they took the Bitcoin, maybe they didn't, and law enforcement was able to intercede, and there was no financial impact in any of those situations. There are many, many people who would prefer to keep that whole thing private right, because even just the knowledge that that happened, whether it was successful or unsuccessful, just identifies them as more of a target. So I think just one people should understand that this is a very real risk out there in the marketplace. I think there are definitely individuals who are higher risk than others, right? High, high profile people, people who are very public about their Bitcoin holdings. Those are the people who, I'd say like, make the biggest targets for big, sensational things. But if you look through the list of public like, there's also just normal people, you know, husband, wife,$200,000 worth of crypto tied up in their home for three days, right? That kind of thing. So, yeah, it's very much a real consideration, and I think people should approach it in a balanced way, just like any other risks we face, like, you know, driving is a relatively dangerous thing that we do. We all do it all the time anyway, understanding that while it's relatively dangerous in the grand scheme of our daily life, statistically, we're willing to accept those risks to go on and live our life and drive around with cars, and I would say with wrench attacks, it's, it's somewhere in the middle. I would say one statistically, you know, you're, you're still okay, right? Many, many, many, millions of people hold Bitcoin, including in self custody. And there's just a spattering of incidents. So I'm not trying to like so just extreme fear, but also, but just a level of reality that when you think about the people who are targeted, they're targeted because their ownership of Bitcoin is known, right? So it's public. So if you're not already public about your holdings may be a good idea to remain that way. And then you know if, if you already are public, or for any reason, that you could consider yourself at higher risk, then you know you have a couple of options. You can either rethink your existing self custody arrangement and try to think to yourself, am I? Is this as mitigated as possible? Right through self custody methods, you could look at us as a different alternative, meaning having insurance. You. Some people actually come to us and tell us that they think about when they think about this, it's just too scary. And so they want to just, even though they're familiar with the counterparty risks of putting on exchange or putting out a sole custodian, that they're like, You know what? I just don't want this danger in my home, right? I'm willing to accept the counterparty risk of a sole custodian, because it means the gunman doesn't come to my home and put my family at risk. And I think if you're public about your holdings, I actually think that even that is something that you need to think hard about, because nothing stops the gunman from saying, I know you have Bitcoin. Where is it? And you're like, I don't have it. It's an exchange. I can't move it for you. And they're like, Yeah, but you can call your exchange, tell them to move it, or I'm going to shoot you, right? And so it's like, almost regardless of key management, there's always kind of a way with violence to break through. And that's why we say at the end of the day, mitigation is very, very important. And whether you use us or somebody else, I would think hard about mitigation. But at the end of the day, I think insurance is the is the backup plan. So if one of these things happens, then you know you have the you have eliminated the risk of Ruin, and you can just focus on survival. Be in this situation, not like, how do I smart this? OutSmart this guy, and is my $500 decoy wallet enough to get him to leave? You know, if it's a meth head, probably, you know, that might be enough. But if it's a sophisticated attacker who's attacking you, because they have a good sense that you own a lot of Bitcoin. You know, they're probably not going to be satisfied like that, and that might just earn you a pistol whip while they continue to demand that you hand over a much larger sum. So definitely, things to think about and how you would approach those situations.

Lynne Bairstow: 40:38

I just want to add one piece of information here too, which I wouldn't ask you to do, but I will divulge it. It's like in May, Coinbase announced a breach of their I mean, they called it a hack, which was inaccurate, and they had customer records taken by contract employees inside of a coin base. So it wasn't really a hack. It was. It was a data breach inside of the company, inside bad actors, inside and so and but it revealed early Coinbase users which would have bought at a lower cost basis. And it did divulge home addresses, so you could be very private about your holdings. But if you have an entity in exchange like coin, like this particular one, and there been, I think, everybody that I know that has had Coinbase accounts early on have been contacted on by phone by people trying to impersonating Coinbase employees and trying to get that I have not heard yet of anyone physically going to an address, but the records exist, and so it's it's important to Be aware of these sort of of information leaks. So even as if you are as quiet as you, you know can be about your holdings, sometimes, if there is a data situation at your exchange, it can, it can put you at risk. Yeah,

Becca: 41:55

from what the direct customer impacts that we've had from it is we have not, like you said, we have not heard of anybody who found themselves in a wrench attack situation because of this data breach or this breakdown of their internal hiring and vendors. What we have had, though, is we have definitely brought on customers who were victims of the breach, some of whom had nothing happened. Their data was exposed. They're being inundated by attempts to fish fish them, but they didn't do it. However, the situation was enough that they decided to come work with us instead. So we've had multiple of those. And then we also have brought on customers who actually were victims of phishing as a result. And so these are people who the data was exposed. They were targeted. Communication was kind of launched between these phishers, the social engineers, and ultimately, Bitcoin was sent fraudulently. So where the customer did send it? In this in these cases that we're aware of, Coinbase actually did make them whole. So even though the Bitcoin did move and it was stolen, Coinbase, I guess, redeposited the same amount of bitcoin back into their account, which I, you know, I respect that they handled it that way. I mean, anything else would be unacceptable. So I'm glad, I'm glad to hear that they did respond that way, but all the same, then we've had customers that they said that was, that was enough for them of that custody model, because with ours, that it just really can't happen, right? Because even if a customer was fish, what would happen with anchor watch is the customer would be fished, and it would be like, hey customer, you know, we're calling from anchor watch, and you need to move your Bitcoin. And so the customer, if they fell for it, would be like, okay, all right, that's fine. I'll put in this address that you told me to, and I'm gonna put in the, you know, I'll sign with my keys, right? So the customer would start the process on their side erroneously, because under misinformation, but they would start the process and then anchor watch as a required signer, it would come over to us. We have a personal relationship with all our clients, so we, this is not a call center overseas, right? We, we've met our clients, and we would be reaching out and be like, hey, you know, when you signed up with us four months ago, you told us that this was your cold storage for the year, that you weren't expecting any major purchases before we complete these transactions for you, before we sign on our side, you know, let's get on a call together and just make sure everything is all right. Because you know, maybe you're you're looking to send all 4 million from your. Account and just this is very, very different from the behavior we told you expect. So at that point, you know, then the customer has the opportunity to either get on the zoom with us, get on a phone call with us, talk to the same agent, the same individual that they've already developed a relationship with, or even in the email just requesting the call, they can be like, no, no, I'm doing this because you told me to. And we'd be like, nope. We didn't tell you to, like, this, like, share more information, but we definitely did not tell you to, and then we would know that we're in a potential social engineering or a potential phishing situation, and we could prevent it from happening in the first place. So it's a big difference in how the custody model and the reason why we did this customer custody model. So this custody model with the dispersed keys, with the time locks, it was designed to be able to mitigate everything, right? So when we were developing the vault and the vault configuration, you know, we spent almost two years really game theory nets and so like, well, what if this happens? What if this happens? And we would think through and be like, Okay, well, how would that play out? Okay, nope, that one is mitigated. Okay, what if this happens? Oh, okay, well, there's a little hole. And so then we would change the vault configuration a little bit until we finally got it locked down, and we had a lot of eyes on it, doing game theory with us and really trying to poke holes. So there's a lot that goes into these decisions, and then at the end of the day, then putting insurance on it, just just in case, makes a big difference as well.

Israel: 46:38

Yeah. And I mean, the reality is, you have to think through these things and account for them. I mean, that's the whole reason why insurance exists. At the end of right, is to account for these What if statistically predictable events. Yeah, luckily, we have great service providers like watching

Becca: 46:56

it might be useful to also, like clarify the difference between our custody policy and a kidnapping ransom, a traditional kidnap and Ransom policy. So our policy that's out there today that you buy when you choose to use anchor watch as your provider, and by the way, you buy the amount of insurance as you want. So if you want 100% insurance, you can fully insure your vault. If you want to insure half the value, that's okay, too, but the the insurance policy itself is covering the loss of the asset. So let's just say, in the context, it also covers lots of other things. But for the context of wrench attacks, let's stay there. So if the gun is to your head, our head, your child's head, any heads, really, if the gun is to your head and the bitcoin is forced to be sent as part of the theft, our policy covers that so it covers the actual loss of the stolen asset. And often that is excluded from other policies. The stolen property itself often excluded from traditional K and R, kidnap and Ransom often excluded. Bitcoin or cryptocurrency is excluded from home homeowners policies. So even if you have it stored in your home, that's specifically excluded. Umbrella policies, it's explicitly excluded. And so our policy is just one that's saying, like, no matter what other insurance you have, specifically this bitcoin is protected and it's covered by insurance. What a k and r policy covers is a few different things, and it's actually a very extensive list. And so I think a k and r policy should be considered if you are, I would say an employee or an executive, anybody kind of public in a Bitcoin company. So I'd say that is kind of a prime target that's popping up, obviously, like people with significant wealth who, whether it's on public like Twitter or even just kind of public locally, like, everybody knows your money is from Bitcoin and like, that's that's understood, even if you're not, like a Twitter guy, you know, I think people like that. And then, for sure, like the Twitter guys too, like, I think those are people who really should be considering k and r so what K and R covers are like the ransom payments. So if, instead of send me your Bitcoin, it's tell your family to gather $5 million from wherever they need to and send us Fiat, or send us tether, or, you know, send us crypto. Of you know, send us Monero, but it's gathered from other places. That's a ransom payment that would be covered by KNR. I think the most important thing to note is that it covers the professional hostage negotiators, both the cost of them, which can be very expensive, as well as the fact that they are on retainer with Lloyds and the best in the world. So these are critical response. Seems. And there's, you know, a few companies that are recognized as being absolutely the best Lloyds, and the insurers work with these companies on retainer. So the second that we call in and say, like, hey, we have an incident happening right now, more or less it's the second call after 911, call 911, get traditional law enforcement engage second call the insurance company. Kick off this professional hostage negotiator. Those guys are on the clock immediately. So you're not trying to Google vet these companies try to figure out if they're even legit. You're going to have to send money as a retainer to actually engage them to start work. So then you're wondering, Am I even sending money to the right, right. So you're losing time, which is the most important thing. They need to be working right away. And so it covers it both enables that service and it includes that service. Our policy the cost of that are unlimited. So even if it runs into seven figures in terms of expenses for these critical response teams, unlimited coverage on that, and then it covers a whole bunch of kind of secondary things. So it has some medical coverage for injuries sustained during an event. It has some mental health coverage. It has loss of work. You know, if you have to take time off work to recover physically or mentally afterwards, it can provide loss of income and business interruption. So there's a lengthy list of services that are covered by a k and r policy that are really specific to if you find yourself in this terrifying situation. And so for that reason, I would say. And by the way, despite that long list of coverage, because these are still relatively low frequency events, the coverage is actually very, very affordable. KNR policies are not particularly expensive. So in particular, if you fit the profile, I think it's worth looking looking into and and maybe the last thing I would add about anchor watches policy in particular, and how it differs from the other KNR policies that are out there is there's definitely very reputable, long standing KNR policies, Deloitte Syndicate, that is behind ours. The only difference is that they are comfortable with us targeting and selling specifically to Bitcoin and crypto owners. So previously, if you think of a good parallel, the parallel out there in the industry would be Bitcoin companies trying to get errors and omissions or directors and officers insurance. So those kind of business insurance, if they just go to a regular Eno DNO insurer, they're going to get hit with what we call is the crypto tax, and they're going to get hit with a major, major penalty on their rate. So another company that has nothing to do with Bitcoin, that has nothing to do with crypto, maybe their errors and omissions policy cost them$3,000 a year, but a Bitcoin company pays $30,000 a year, and I'm not exaggerating, so it's a 10x penalty for having a business that has anything to do with crypto. So what happened is businesses popped up. Insurance agencies popped up that said, Hey, we know this industry very well, we can do a better job of underwriting the specific businesses and identifying which ones may be scammy and, you know, bad behavior, and which ones are legitimate businesses that just happen to do work related to Bitcoin, And as a result, these specific companies that target our industry, maybe instead of a 10x penalty, they're able to work with insurers, and maybe you get like, a 6x penalty, so you're still getting hit, but it's a lot cheaper than going to just anybody. And so the KNR is pretty much the same deal as is. There's, if you just go to the KNR marketplace, just Google KNR insurers, you're going once they figure out during underwriting that you are a crypto owner and that, you know, that's what you're really kind of protecting against, you will probably get a pretty hefty fee. And with us. You know, it's already been more or less aligned with Lloyd's of London, that this is our target market, and so our fees will likely be a lot more reasonable than they would be able to find elsewhere, but happy, happy to talk to anybody and actually get them quoted out so they can do cost analysis themselves. But that's pretty much the

Israel: 54:38

difference. Well, that's amazing. I mean, you're, certainly opening up a lot of door doors with the Lloyds of London syndicates is, I mean, much needed and just again, a sign of the maturing asset class, right? Just generally, one other aspect of anchor watch, which is extremely interesting, Becca, and this is moving away from the insurance conversation. And. Is the inheritance component of the way your vault is is built. The technology behind anchor watch makes it so that you've actually landed on a pretty unique and friendly inheritance solutions. Can we get into that last aspect of

Becca: 55:19

the Absolutely, yeah. So, you know, last time I was on the show, we went through a pretty deep dive of the vault configuration, right? And what we included in that conversation was the fact that there is what we call a recovery layer, which is before the vault becomes pure Self custody, but while you are still insured, and so more or less it's the vault begins when you become our customer, it's the customer holds their own keys, and anchor watch holds keys, and we're both required signers. After the policy ends, it's customer keys only. So it's true self custody right before that, though, there's this layer that is the recovery layer, and so you're still insured. And what that recovery layer is is actually it's a multi institutional custody layer, where anchor watch, and then our recovery partner, whose coin corner, the same one we talked about last time I was on the show, where we can together, sign a transaction and move Bitcoin on behalf of a customer. It's important that it happens while you're still insured, because one of the questions we often get is like, what if anchor watch and coin corner collude to steal the customer's Bitcoin using that layer? And the answer to that, aside from the obvious answer, of it would kill both our businesses to be caught doing that. But you know, the actual assurance to the comp, to the customer, is that it's insured. It's specifically covered in the policy that if anchor watch misuses that ability and commits fraud or or collusion, that that is covered in Lloyd's of London would cover that loss. So, but that recovery layer is the key to really, really foolproof inheritance. And so that was already kind of built into that threat modeling that we did. So as we went through all the different scenarios, we're like, Okay, well, what if a customer dies? What if a customer dies at the beginning of the policy? What if they die right before the end of the policy? How are we going to is this going to be an insurance claim, or is it going to be just something that we use the recovery layer? So from the beginning, it's the recovery layer. So if a customer dies, we are able to use this layer to recover the assets for their for their beneficiaries. What changed more recently is we had launched back in January, we've been bringing on customers, hearing their feedback, and really just heard from customers that they wanted a little more clarity in how this actually gets executed, as well as they wanted clarity for their estate professionals, right? So they they have a will, they maybe have a trust, or they're thinking about setting one up. They have trustees, or even if they don't, even if they don't have any of that, like, you know, they have their spouse, and they wanted more documentation in terms of making it easy for the beneficiaries or the trust professionals, estate professionals, to be able to recover the assets. So what we really did is we thought through the reality of the situation, the different ways it could come up, and we we tried to make it as easy as possible for all parties involved who start the recovery process. So anchor, watch never claims ownership over a customer's assets. So none of this is really particularly time limited. There's not, like, a certain amount of time that the beneficiary needs to contact us, and if they don't, we're taking their assets. That's that's very clear in our terms of service, that we do not do that. So the way our inheritance protocol works is, first of all, if a customer dies as part of a Bitcoin theft, right? So gun to the head, the Bitcoin gets sent, and then they shoot you anyway. That's an insurance claim, because the Bitcoin was actually stolen. And so then that's very straightforward. The Insurance Claim views the estate, the legal estate, as the beneficiary to the policy. Let's set that aside, though, and talk about maybe the more run of run of the mill, ways somebody could have a end of life event, as we call it, so they get hit by a bus, they have an illness, they're old, whatever it may be. They pass away. If it's early in the policy and the recovery layer is not open yet, then we would wait for it. So let's say the wife contacts us. And they're like, hey, you know, my husband passed away. I know we had an account with you. I think our bitcoin is there. What do we what do we do next? We would tell them, Okay, since you've reached out to us at this point, we have a few months until your recovery layer opens. The good thing here is that you the the wife, the beneficiary, the trustee, doesn't actually need to know anything about Bitcoin. So they don't need to have followed the treasure map that you know people leave in their file cabinets and try to, like, leave half the hints and then go to this other place and find another nobody has to do that. The spouse, the trustee, does not need to know your signing devices, location. They don't need to know pin phrases. They don't need seed phrases. They don't need anything other than preferably, to know that they're a beneficiary. Because it certainly saves us all time if they reach out to us. But even if they don't reach out to us, we would still start reaching out to them eventually. Because when you sign up with anchor watch, we collect your primary beneficiary as well as a secondary beneficiary and contact information for both. So what would happen is, if they reach out to us ahead of time, we would say, Okay, let's say on you know, August 15 is when your particular husband's vault will become available for recovery. So between now and August 15, we'll work with you to understand your intentions. If you want to keep hodling that Bitcoin and you would like to remain our customer, we're happy to help you. We'll get you a brand new vault set up. We'll educate you on holding the signing devices. We'll we'll help you whatever with whatever you need. And then on that date, we will move the Bitcoin out of the kind of stranded vault and move it into the new new vault that is owned by the beneficiary. If the beneficiary wants to liquidate, once we have exchange functionality, they can do it in house. Until then, we'll help them get it to a reputable exchange where they can liquidate it and take care of their family's needs. If the timing is a little different and we don't hear from them it, it's okay. So these are not time the the way time walks work in Bitcoin is once they become available, they remain available. So let's say the scenario is you pass away pretty close to the end of your policy, and so that that time is coming, and just with the way time locks work, we get back together annually with our clients, and we sign a transaction which effectively restarts the time locks, and we'd renew your insurance policy for the year, and have this annual check in maintains the relationship we get to, you know, check in on their expectations for the year, which helps us prevent fraud and wrench attacks. So we'd be reaching out and saying, Hey, Lynne, you know, on September 15, you know, your vault is up for renewal, if, if now's a good time, we could get a zoom call scheduled and and turn over your vault for the new year. So what about sometime in in late August, and we don't hear back from you, right? And so we, as time goes on and we're approaching this timeline, we're we're reaching out to you multiple times. We're saying, like, hey Lynne, you know, just really trying to get time on the schedule for you. We still don't hear back from you right before the end. We're saying, hey, Lynne, just as a reminder, your vault is going to become true self custody, you know, on September 15. So make sure you have your signing devices. It's no problem. You won't be locked up from your Bitcoin at all. It's just self custody now, so just make sure you're confident in the location of your signing devices, and you know, best of luck to you, right? And the Bitcoin just sits there. It doesn't move. We don't hear from you 90 days after your policy ends. So it's been sitting there in self custody, not moving 90 days after your policy ends, we're going to reach out to your beneficiary proactively, and we're going to say, hey, we're trying to you were listed as a beneficiary on Lynne's account with us. We haven't been able to get a hold of her. Are you able to help us get in touch with her? And hopefully at that point, the beneficiary would be able to tell us the situation. And if we can't get a hold of them, then we can be reaching out to the secondary beneficiary, and then we will do the work of, you know, really trying to find the rightful owner. Eventually, if we can't locate the primary or secondary account beneficiary, then, even then we don't claim ownership, we would follow whoever the state says is the proper owner of that estate. So we'd look to that and then one but once we have found the proper beneficiary and gotten in contact, then they would provide the death certificate, and we would just begin that process, the documents that we provide a customer. Customer as just part of our inheritance protocol. Where we started this, which was really came out of customer requests, was, look, I don't want my treasure map in my file cabinet. That's too risky. I don't want to say where I have my private C store seed stored, or where my signing devices are stored, or what those PIN codes are. I don't want that in my file cabinet. What I do want in my file cabinet is something that my wife or my lawyer can look at and start the recovery process easily, and so we have that document, so we have the proof of assets. At any time, the customer can pull that attestation. They can include that as an annual snapshot, if they'd like, but for the sake of inheritance, then there's another button that you can click at any time. It'll just say, more or less, okay. Lynne is a customer of anchor watch. Here's who anchor watch is. We're a Lloyds of London cover holder, and we have a custody platform where clients can hold Bitcoin. The above person has an account with us if there is a loss of life event, here's the steps to take, and we more or less just give the spouse, the beneficiary or the estate professional, all the initial steps and the information that they need to just kick off this process and make it easier on them to get in contact with us and Just make it very, very seamless. But the goal of the inheritance protocol in general is to make it foolproof, and so that's the goal here. Is that one way or the other, we will return your assets to your beneficiary, whether it happens very, very promptly because they reached out to us or it took us doing legwork to look for beneficiaries and look for the right person. Either way it's going to happen, and your Bitcoin will go to your intended in your intended errors.

Lynne Bairstow: 1:06:49

Yeah, I just saw that as such an important I think a lot of the early Bitcoin Bitcoiners, you know, may not have partners that are as technically skilled or and I just, I just thought that this is such a great way, because in the other side of this, which I'm glad that you explained, because I wasn't clear on that, but you know, is the fact that you don't even really have to disclose to your to your beneficiary, to your heirs, that you have this asset until you're passing, and then it comes up. And so that's a great way of you know, Bitcoiners do tend to want to be very private about what they hold oftentimes. So that's a that's another wonderful feature that. But, yeah, I immediately saw the, the beauty number one of the insurance, but then the beneficiary, the way anchor watch is able to handle beneficiaries in a way that I haven't seen anyone else be able to

Becca: 1:07:39

do. Yeah, I think, I mean, I think you honed in on that. You were one of the very first people to just really zone in right on that aspect of our platform and our services and something that makes us stand out. And it really is like it's been gratifying to see, to hear from customers too, that what we put together does, in fact, ease their fears. Because this, this idea of the treasure map is, is actually a very troubling one. It already kind of was, but now that I hear these stories again and again from people, it actually like it fills me with a lot of anxiety. Really hearing, hearing what people do and and so without telling us the exact details, people will be pretty open and explaining kind of what they have currently. And, man, I'd say it's there's two kind of risk areas. One is they are relying on other people to understand the importance of what they're explaining at the time so and that is hard for a bitcoiner to go back in time before they understood Bitcoin and remember what their knowledge would have led them to before they learned Bitcoin. And if, if you haven't gone through that education of Bitcoin, this idea that it just can't be fixed by somebody is a very foreign one, right? So if you're if, even if you get sat down by a family member and said, Okay, this is super important, you have to keep this information like you have to. They'll be like, okay, okay, but like, are they going to take it as seriously as you need them to, or are they really going to remember what you meant when you wrote down this kind of obfuscated half instruction, hoping that it's enough information? Are they are they really going to remember that? So I think there's a lot of concerns there in that area, just in terms of putting too much faith in your partner or family member, heir or lawyer, if it's memory based or somewhat obfuscated in form. Of the details. Another thing I see very, very frequently is customers do actually share the names of who they put down as their trusted helper. So they'll in this kind of treasure map, they'll say, like, you know, it's located in our secret favorite spot, you know, the spot, right? And then, so that's already concerning. And then the other thing they say is, like, if you need help, go ask this guy. Go ask Israel, right he you can trust Israel. Like, he's a good dude. He's not going to steal the Bitcoin. The problem is, everybody uses, like, the same five guys. I'm not kidding. Like, so many people are relying on these same several individuals, and that they're well known Bitcoin personalities who are high trust people. But I'm not kidding. First of all, they don't even get asked, right? People just put them down as that resource. And I'm sure they wouldn't mind, because if they find themselves in that scenario, they are willing to help. But I mean, I would, I would guess. Look, if just eight people have told me directly that they use the same individual, I feel confident there's 1000 people out there who have all put this person down in their file cabinet. What if he dies before you like, you know, like, what if things change? So there's, you know, there's multiple very kind of concerning practices that people are relying on that are, maybe, were the best idea that we had even five years ago. Um, but, you know, I think people need to upgrade, uh, upgrade their standards and really be thinking really long term, right? Like, you know what, what will be remembered by the beneficiary, not in three months, but in three years, or in 13 years, if that's how long it takes, you know, for something to come, come to pass? Will these individuals still be high trust in 13 years? Will they still be alive in 13 years? So how often are you looking at your inheritance plan thinking about it very critically, and I just encourage that to be a very active decision for people thinking about their their procedures and their plan. And obviously we've put out a solution that we think helps with that. But really, I think it's I've had my own learnings here, really from learning from customers, and I would say just whether you end up using us or not. I do think people need to really, really rethink, or at least re examine their prior decisions and see if they still think they're they're the best ones.

Lynne Bairstow: 1:12:52

And that's the good news about Bitcoin is it is evolving, and as it's growing in value, it's also growing in services such as anchor watch. I mean, you know, we talked about$5 rent attack. Most people would not have any idea what that is, even seed phrase and the term wallet. I mean, people, if you say the word wallet, people literally think that the bitcoin is in the wallet. And there's still many my peer group that thinks that Bitcoin can be a physical gold coin thing, you know, to be able to explain that and have a have a dictionary that goes along with the inheritance plan to help somebody understand. And I'm like that. But no, it's fantastic that you guys have put so much thought. I love the way that you game theory everything out and explore all the different possible scenarios and what could happen if, I think, you know, it clearly shows a thoughtfulness from you and Rob and the anchor watch team to to ensure that you've considered it all. Israel, what else do you have for Becca today? I

Israel: 1:13:55

think that we're probably at a good point to round things off, but you know, kind of going off of what you're what you were just mentioning, Lynne, I mean, this gets a bit philosophical, but even just kind of takes me back to, you know, I guess, what is the purpose of money generally, right? And to me, at least it's a means to achieve a better lifestyle and things you desire and or be being peace of mind, right? I mean, I think just when you really boil down what the function of money is to for most people, it simplifies to one, you know, flavor the other things and anchor watch, I see is really kind of filling that, that peace of mind gap

Becca: 1:14:37

that is ultimately the goal. We're trying to make it simpler, safer, easier, to hold it for a really long period of time, and kind of all these different risks go into that you know what? What is going to cause the loss? Human error is going to cause the loss. Getting fooled by scammers is going to cause a loss. Right? Dying without a. Proper inheritance plan can cause a loss. Getting kidnapped and getting attacked can cause the loss. So it's like, these are the real risks that you have to be thinking about. And there will be new risks that come on, and we will evolve the product or offer new products that address new risks as they develop. But you know, within our industry, and you know our friends and fellow Bitcoiners, you hear this phrase of generational wealth and the inheritance portion. I mean, it's moving straight till that like you might have sacrificed, really, your whole life. You could have had a low time preference, just and focused on accumulating Bitcoin, literally, for the purpose of leaving a legacy for your family and generations to follow. And you just you can't lose it just because of an inheritance mishap. It's just unacceptable. It's unacceptable. So we're pretty proud of how we approach things and how we go about it and really just trying to provide alternatives for people to achieve that peace of mind.

Israel: 1:16:05

Yeah, it's great to see the service offerings expanding. Becca, and you know, maybe, to end the episode, where can you know? Where do you want to point people to? What can, where can they find and get in touch with anchor, watch,

Becca: 1:16:20

anchor, watch.com There's more information on the inheritance protocol there, as well as our other services. So that's a great place to start, right there on the on the site, you can request a meeting with us and choose your spot on the calendar live. So we've made it really easy for you. You can always reach out to me or my handle on Twitter is Becca Amelie, and my DMs are open. You can reach me at Becca at anchor, watch.com or you can reach out directly to our sales team at agent at anchor, watch.com and those are all ways to get in touch. And we'll take care. Take good care of you generally. The process is, you would get on a call with us, we can answer any questions you have, walk you through anything that you're not already familiar with, and at what, and we'll give you a quote. So based on your specifics, we can give you a accurate rate quote for the amount of insurance you want and the different security parameters you want. And then we would move through a very quick insurance application. Takes about 15 minutes at most, just a typical insurance application. And then final step would be onboarding you to the vault. So we would send you brand new signing devices. You would set up your own private keys, and then we get your vault set up. It's a l1, layer, one vault. Everything is visible on chain so you can verify everything is as we say it is, and then you would move your Bitcoin into your insured vault at the at the end of the process. Okay,

Lynne Bairstow: 1:17:50

well, thank you so much again. Becca, thanks for taking us through this new development that we think is super positive for for Bitcoin and Bitcoiners, and for the updates, we're so excited about the progress that you guys have made in just a short six or seven months, rolling out a couple of new products and then more on the horizon. So thank you. We'll look forward to continuing to be in touch and have you back on

Becca: 1:18:13

appreciate it. Big fan of the show very much. Enjoyed it last time and this time. So thank you guys very much. Thanks. Beckham, all right. Have a great one. Bye, bye.

Lynne Bairstow: 1:18:29

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