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Build With Bitcoin
"Build With Bitcoin" is a podcast and advisory services company. We are your insider source to the innovators, investors, and thought leaders demonstrating that Bitcoin is far more than a digital currency, but a pivotal technology platform.
Tune in on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Fountain, Rumble, and more.
A list of all episodes and a link to subscribe to show updates is available at: https://buildwithbitcoin.xyz
About the Co-Hosts:
Lynne - A Bitcoiner since 2013, Lynne is an entrepreneur and investor, co-founding MITA Ventures in 2012 after transitioning from Wall Street and traditional finance at Merrill Lynch. She's an active mentor at Google for Startups in Mexico/LatAm.
Israel - An entrepreneur in the Bitcoin space since 2014, co-founded a company for remittances. Curious-minded and analytical, has held different roles within Venture and Finance. He actively supports technology ventures in the LatAm region.
DISCLAIMER: Build With Bitcoin podcast is for educational purposes only and does not give financial advice.
Build With Bitcoin
079 - Unlocking Bitcoin's Potential: Marco Argentieri on Scaling Finance with Ark Labs
In this episode, Marco Argentieri, CEO and founder of Ark Labs, shares his journey with Bitcoin and the founding of his company. He discusses the challenges of scalability and programmability in Bitcoin, and the innovative solutions offered by Ark Labs.
Marco emphasizes the potential of Bitcoin to revolutionize financial services and the need for a decentralized yet efficient ecosystem. He also addresses his own fundraising journey, privacy and regulatory considerations, and highlights the evolving landscape for Bitcoin companies.
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⚡ Get personalized onboarding at River for Bitcoin-only financial services: https://partner.river.com/buildwithbitcoin
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Marco Argentieri and Ark Labs
04:44 Marco's Journey with Bitcoin
08:43 Understanding Scalability and Programmability Solutions
15:14 The Founding of Ark Labs
22:02 Fundraising Challenges and Strategies
25:26 Exploring Ark Labs' Solutions
31:57 Use Cases and the Future of Arkade
38:41 Balancing Centralization and Decentralization
44:35 Privacy and Regulatory Considerations
50:30 Adoption Challenges and Market Positioning
References
https://arklabs.xyz/
https://arkadeos.com/
https://x.com/ArkLabsHQ
https://x.com/Arkade_OS
https://www.buildwithbitcoin.xyz/
https://x.com/BuildwBitcoin
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❗ DISCLAIMER: This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any decisions consult a professional.
We are all agree that Bitcoin is appreciating 30, 40% per year, so you don't really need to do anything. Just hold it, and it's fine. But in a way, especially in the West, we have this concept, and I think it will never go away. Put your money at work, right? Keeping hide all those Bitcoin. I think all the shareholder of this Bitcoin Treasury company down the road, the next cycle, will say, Okay, but what are you going to do with those Bitcoin. And honestly, I'm not seeing Michael sale or bridging their Bitcoin in wbtc and some sketchy bridges somewhere. So in a way, like, you need to build Bitcoin native solution. Because, like, is the easiest way for this new Bitcoin. Bitcoin Treasury companies, in a way, to evaluate risk, because it will be Bitcoin 80. They know the Bitcoin are there. They know there is a pre signed path to get those Bitcoin back without, you know, trusting that or that. Otherwise, they just go to financial entity, and that will be way better than go go to a defy on other chain.
Israel:Welcome to the podcast today. Marco argentiieri, CEO and founder of arc labs, shares with us his entrepreneurial journey in Bitcoin. Marco is a longtime builder and product leader focused on expanding the utility and accessibility of the Bitcoin infrastructure. Arc Labs is using a very innovative approach to redefine scalability and programmability on top of Bitcoin. Hear from Marco on innovative solutions to Bitcoins, toughest challenges, the importance of building relationships for fundraising and why Bitcoin set to revolutionize financial services. Let's dive in as a reminder, this podcast is for educational purposes only. If you enjoy our content, please remember to share or leave us a comment, as This all helps us greatly. Thank you. Lynne and I are partners at Bass layer advisors, where we use our network of Venture Capital Partners and startup founders to connect investors with unique opportunities within the Bitcoin innovation space. Alongside this, we help startup founders with their growth and fundraising. Visit our website's advisory section to learn more. Welcome to build with Bitcoin. Today, we are joined with Marco argentere, who is CEO and founder of arc labs, a company and solution that is allowing Bitcoin to scale. And we'll get into a, hopefully a balanced conversation between the technicalities of what our clubs is and everything you're you're trying to solve for Marco, I'm co host Israel. Munoz joined with co host and Bairstow, and let's get right into it. First of all, welcome and thanks for joining us on the build with Bitcoin podcast. Marco. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me absolutely so so maybe we can start before we get into our clubs and the problem you're solving, Marco, can we get an idea of who you are as an entrepreneur, a little bit about your background and how you were introduced to Bitcoin in the first place?
Marco:Yep, absolutely. I've been lucky to work on Bitcoin all entire my career. When I was 18 years old, I created my first startup in North of Italy. Was a Bitcoin for cash brokerage. So I was helping buying, selling Bitcoin for cash. And at the time 2014 so more than 10 years ago, was very hard to get on an exchange or to find Bitcoin. At the same time, people also so many questions, right? So Bitcoin never had the marketing department never had, you know, a way to explain what is it? And in a way, also was, you know, what everybody thought at the time, being the decentralized PayPal, right? So, the equivalent of BitTorrent, but for for money, I put one of the first Bitcoin ATM in North of Italy. And the people, you know what? That was really interesting. And first launch of the startup, because really helped to draw a lot of attention from traditional media, right? So having an ATM so you can withdraw cash, put cash and get bitcoin. So I think that was a very interesting entry point. And also that also was a very interesting phase for Bitcoin, because, really, everyone was using Bitcoin, not because they believing in in the price going up or the financial aspect of Bitcoin, but everyone was really using it to, for example, remittances, right? So many people were coming to me. They were saying, Look what, sir Lynne, is charging me 20% or they asked me a lot of you know, documents or I cannot even get an account and with you, I can really simply, in five minutes, send bitcoin over from Italy to South America, right, and send part of my salary back home. So in a way, like Bitcoin was already solving many of those problems, but in a way, 2017 the fees spiked, and in a way, the scalability problem really hit the major everyone, and I would say people started stopping using Bitcoin as a way, as a money, and in a way, Bitcoin now fast forward to and right now, 2000 in 2024 you know, we got ETF. And wow. Now. We are, went from decentralized people to actually digital gold, and is really part of every portfolio now, of major institutional investor now, so in a way, like looking back and really looking to something that was like maybe even, not even an industry, and now being something really game changer,
Lynne Bairstow:Marco, just taking a step back further. One, one step back further. How did you come to be introduced to Bitcoin? I mean, do you remember the and did you get it immediately? Or how was, what was your first impression of it? Yep.
Marco:So I remember, like in high school, one of our professor mentioning and to say, hey, there is a new thing. And again, the name Bitcoin was very appealing to me. And having a software engineering background, I was coding at the time, I said, Oh, that sounds cool, right? So I cannot program, I cannot do things with normal money, but with this, you know, I can look into the source code, I can go into details. So for me, it was really more a personal interest in the Bitcoin aspect, but also the fact that, then, you know, was a global phenomena, and something that really cool became something new, where I said, Look, I really want to create a career round of it sounds sounds fun, sounds interesting, cutting edge enough to focus on
Lynne Bairstow:this. And, and then the early use case that you had of Bitcoin as a medium of exchange and and and a substitute for cash and moving money around. That is, is that how you really started thinking about scaling, and the scaling, the potential scaling problems of Bitcoin, and that's what you wanted to focus on, or talk to us a little bit about, when you, when you realize that scaling was potentially a hindrance to the to the adoption and growth of Bitcoin.
Marco:Yep, at the time, Microsoft, Xbox, Steam, was all accepting bitcoin, right? And 2014, 15. But then, you know, when fees start, you know, getting very high. People really stopped using it. And in a way, they lost trust in the in Bitcoin as a, let's say, medium of exchange. And, of course, the narrative as well, from 2017 when we appreciated from 1000 to 20,000 you know, of course, people say, Oh, wait, wait a second. You know, even myself, you know, I wasn't expecting that pure or in a way, growth in terms of price. So in a way, like normally, one side the price on the other side, the scalability really impacted many of those use cases. In 2020 I started with my company woodland ventures, which is more like an R D lab, to do a lot of research. And we work a little bit at the beginning of Lightning Network, but wasn't the right place for us. We really needed the programmability aspect of, you know, let's say smart contract and stuff like that. And Lynne doesn't really offer that. That's why we started working on liquid, and I'm still sitting on the technology board of the liquid Federation, which is the sidechain, the sidechain from Blockstream, which basically is a clone of Bitcoin, but with more capability added. And in a way, like, Yeah, I've been like, spending a lot of time not only scalability, the pure aspect or throughput of Bitcoin, but also like, how we can expand the programmability, how we can expand the use cases that you're using Bitcoin for. Because, yeah, buying Bitcoin, storing it in your wallet, that's amazing. That's for sure, something game changer. But the thing like the saving market is not big as a financial market, right? So really, completely different sides, and in a way like it feels to me right now, we are financializing Bitcoin, right? And that's why I think scalability is actually an enabler to actually increase those use cases. And if there is no scalability, you will go to Wall Street right to financialize Bitcoin. You're not using Bitcoin actually as the platform to financialize itself. And I think that's, that's, I think are very connected topics, you know, scalability, but also like the amount of use cases and expansion of programmability of Bitcoin itself,
Israel:Marco, you know, to the best extent possible. Can you help us try to categorize these scalability and programmability solutions? Because it can, it can be a bit of a confusing topic. You have native programmability, such as miniscript. You have layer tools like lightning, which you referred to, which is more so for the for the instant payments, instant, instant settled micro payments. You have side chains such as liquid and, of course, everything you're working on at ARC labs, before we get into what arc Labs is, exactly, how do you, I mean, just give us, maybe your your mindset or framework as far as how you, how you think about this, this whole scalability and programmability side of things,
Marco:Yep, yeah, absolutely. I think it's a very, very good question. In a way, I think I will categorize in two major I will divide it into category one. I will call it native scaling, in a way, like you're really using Bitcoin natively, and you're using the Bitcoin scripting to actually. Do something and ideally go off chain, right? Because, again, you cannot scale a blockchain with another blockchain, right? So you need some other architecture to actually scale what's actually doesn't work very well on the layer one or another approach is simply, hey, we just replicate another blockchain, right? And we call it layer two. But then there is a bridge, right? There is an automate you just use the programmability to, just like, to allow you to bridge from the Bitcoin layer one into this, like, let's say, additional side chain, or Bitcoin layer two on that side. So in a way, like, you're creating a competing blockchain, just that you don't introduce a new token. You're just still using Bitcoin in a wrapped version. So I will categorize either you wrap and you and you move the wrapped version of that Bitcoin and that layer two, sidechain, roll up, call it what you want, and on the other side is like, well, how we can create an off Chain system? So we're not using the blockchain, but we're using, somehow, the blockchain as just as a judge, just as a let's say, in case things go wrong, we always go back to the layer one. But in the best possible scenario, if the incentive are right, we just stay off chain natively, right? So we create a system, and they will say, I will put in this category, Lynne network. I think that has been, you know, production since 2018 I guess, right So, and that is live it works right now in the same way. I will potentially categorize state chain as an approach. So you're not actually introducing a new blockchain, but you're just like keeping this pre signed transaction there. I will say what we are doing with Arc also is a native scalability solution, or a native layer, because we don't introduce another blockchain, but we just have a set of virtual transaction right? We just created this virtual execution layer, very similar to, you know, how cloud provider, you know, in a way, give you to you the assurance that you have a server, but you actually don't have a physical server on your name, right? So they handle the physicality of in the data center, but just, they just give you an abstraction that feels to be a server, right? It's called virtual machine. I think what we are doing is like with Arc, is really that, right? So we try to have what we call virtual ut saw. And the utxo is really, when you home Bitcoin, you have an aspen transaction output, and we just try to give you a virtual version of it that try to have the same security guarantee as the layer one, I will say, on the other category, you can put liquid you can put other side chain. You can put roll ups, bit game roll ups, because, in a way, like, yes, even if they're trustless, the bridging in and out is trustless. Of those Bitcoin you still have to grow your own blockchain, right? So it's a completely separated ecosystem. You're not touching much the Bitcoin, the Bitcoin layer as other solution.
Lynne Bairstow:Marco, just you mentioned fees, but can you, can you just explain, for our audience members who may not be aware, what are the constraints of Bitcoin scaling, like, Why? Why can't it handle the number of payments, and why are these solutions important to have
Marco:100% and many times we think as a bug, right? So we think we hear about it, or Bitcoin doesn't scale, or the throughput is not enough for every every person in the world. And in a way that this is seen as a bug, and that's why many other blockchain came out right? Say, Oh, we fixed this. Now buy my token right by my, my other Bitcoin clone. But actually this is, I think is a feature, right? Because we need to keep a global blockchain that is, like decentralized enough. That's why is low, and that's why is also is capped in thermal throughput. So I will say the problem is block space and block time, right? These two constraints are what, for example, right now we have 10 minutes block time, which mean to get some sort of Bitcoin finality of your transaction, need to wait for a block, which is, on average, 10 minutes. And the other aspect is, like, we have a limited space in this block to fit with transaction, so you can put more than, let's say, four megabyte, but this number just like, just to understand, like, is very limited, right? So four megabit is like nothing, right? So a picture of my iPhone is really double than that on average. So in a way, it limited. But this is actually the feature of Bitcoin and watch I and why I think Bitcoin will remain the HIPPS blockchain, because it will always prioritize, you know, to be safe, to not break and to basically be always automated and long running without any humans to intervene, because, like the slow time and also the limited space, really prevent the DOS, right? So a denial of service by malicious actor, because, in the end, Bitcoin is permissionless, as you actually need to have system in place to prevent abuse of the system.
Israel:Yeah, I mean, it's fascinating to hear you explain all of this Marco, because, I mean, admittedly, even even I, for a long time, would get very confused with these different scaling solutions. And, you know, size. Chain wrapped versus native. And I think your your framing really helps out as far as arc labs itself, then Marco, when did you found the company and what? What has been your journey to date?
Marco:Yep, absolutely, I think in the early days, you know, arc has been announced. And you know, many researcher in the space, you know, try to propose a solution that, at the beginning was thinking to be the Lynne killer, right? But at the same time, I did the first prototype with my team at open ventures in December 2023, on liquid, because at the time was we thought that we needed a software. We need a change to Bitcoin to make arc, to make arc work. But then in the spring of 2024 you know, Ruben Samson, a researcher in the Bitcoin space, actually came out with a solution to okay, you can actually practically do arc on Bitcoin today with no changes to Bitcoin. And for me, that has been okay. I've been like, really exploring arc as a research in the last year, but the fact you can actually build it on Bitcoin right now without asking permission, I think that really changed for me, the priority. And we decided to spin off, you know, all my and bring all the engineering team from bullpen into art club. So in June 2024, we announced the company, and we were very lucky on the response, and we decided to focus basically for the next decade on what I see, the biggest opportunity ever, and the biggest asymmetric, you know, occasion that that I have to contribute back to what is, is Bitcoin. And in a way, like after a couple of months, we were also lucky to attract, you know, couple of very important team members, and also to have other partner to join, to join us in the journey, like Tim Draper and Fulgur and axiom. So we closed a little pre seed that helped us also to have a long term vision, to focus on, on a bigger on a bigger picture. Build
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Lynne Bairstow:with Bitcoin. I have a question about that. Because, you know, we talk a lot about the fundraising journey, and it's, it's challenging often, for Bitcoin companies to raise funding. You launched in June, and by August, you raised your pre seed fund at a healthy amount. It was two and a half million, I believe. And you have Tim Draper, who's in Silicon Valley, you know, he's one of the few Silicon Valley traditional VCs, as also, we know is a bitcoiner, but how did you and then obviously Oleg, who were big fans of Fulgur ventures and and you have some good names, but did you start your fundraising before you launched the company? Or how did that journey kind of progress? And how did you approach these What was your idea that you that you presented to them that got them so excited about supporting your journey with Arc labs?
Marco:Yep, I mean, and you're very right in saying that to raise for a Bitcoin company is very hard, in general, to raise for a crypto company, at least maybe not in the last two years, where the political landscape change a bit, but, like, until two years ago or less, even last year, was very odd, right? So if you put the name crypto, you think you're like, Okay, you're gonna go to go to jail, or you're doing something bad, you know, like, always been very challenging, right? In the mainstream investor, and especially Bitcoin, right? Because, in a way, crypto, as they are lucky, in a way, to have the possibility to, okay, we do a token, right? So we do a liquidity event, or at least investor are know that in couple of years, they can potentially monetize or, you know, if the token get listed on secondary market, they can actually have a liquidity event, right? So I think that aspect is really put 2x difficulty on Bitcoin company, especially if you don't introduce a token and we just want to raise for equity, because, in the same way, like Bitcoin is clear as has been an asymmetric bet Bitcoin itself, but so far, we don't have an example of a pure Bitcoin company that, in a way, did a successful exit for mainstream investor and thing, even the broader crypto ecosystem, right? So just try last year, right, or six months ago, you know, when you know, did the acquisition? I mean, until that, there was no success story, right for a crypto company to do a successful exit in 10 years. So I think right now is moving very well the ecosystem. People are very interested. People are looking into it. But again, I think Bitcoin is still victim of the fact of like, not thinking in a very ambitious way, or Bitcoin founder not thinking ambitious way to really say, Okay, I understand what the rest of the ecosystem. Don't understand that Bitcoin is the best rail, is the best ecosystem to build on so I can sleep at night. I know there won't be. Problem or regulatory issue. We know Bitcoin has total clarity everywhere, and will always have, because it's really centralized, right? So in a way, like that really makes me sleep well at night, but the same time as a marketing problem, because I need to communicate this to the broader audience, and in a way, also try to make the case of why this is the right strategy when it comes I think to fundraise in general, I think, well, first of all is an art is not a science, right? So what works for us may not work for many others, but one thing I always suggest is like, start building connection, real connection, even before you have an idea like with open venture, we have been self funded for more than four or five years. We had conversation with main investor also to think about where the direction was of research, where to focus our team on. And many said, Okay, do are you guys raising? I said, No, we think we don't. We're not like an investable we're not like on a startup that can grow quickly, right? So we really R D, we want to have the luxury to spend time in research, right? So, like we did with Arc, right, even before, without, with no pressure, right, to create a monopoly right away. But when you see that there is an opportunity to create a company that can really grow crazy, anything can actually create an or create a new market. And I think that's where, where I think, I think to be right, to create a really easily, a blue ocean, right? So if you are successful, to create, you know, a programmable layer on top of Bitcoin, well, we build the best place for FinTech company, neobanks and digital banks to build on top of it, right? So when you have that conviction, then I think all the connection that you already have would be way easier, right? Because you don't need to go around and beg for introduction, because you already been known, you already been in the space. They already there are already people in the space vouching for you, right? Because in the end, it matters, right, what you've done your reputation. So I think, like the speed of fundraising is also the function of your own background and like the story that you can tell. And, of course, as to matter, and also the business case has to be appealing. But many times I see many other startup in the Bitcoin space, they have very good tech, potentially even a very good product, and also potential to monetize, but they always been too much, you know, not spending time to create those meaningful relationships that can actually help you, you know, to help you in the fundraising process. Did you
Lynne Bairstow:kind of select who you wanted to be, backers of your of your company? I mean, with all these relationships that you'd built, did you have a target list, and How involved are these investors with your kind of strategy and going forward, do you rely on them, or are they? Are they? Are they strategic investors, or are they more financial investors? We'd love to hear a little bit more about how you rely on, on your on your financial supporters,
Marco:under present, in a way like I always considering that, sir, you know you're co found, almost a co founder, right? So you and we talk of founder always say is like a marriage, right? So you need to really go well. In the long term, there will be a roller coaster, and then you need to support in good and bad moments. So in the same way, I think like taking money, of course, is important, is very but sometimes is like money only for the sake of having money is not great, right? You actually need investor that can help you to elevate what you're doing. Of course, the investor won't tell you your challenge. Won't fix your problem. One, you know, one, get your functional product or functional strategy. You have to do that. But once you in a way, see all of this, and you have the alchemy, you have the right team, you have the right you know, product and product and somewhat, you see the product market fit coming. Then one delegation that, you know, investor, strategic investor, can do, because in couple of real nice, well introduction, they can really, like, change you from, like, being in total dark and actually being the momentum. So in a way, like, Yes, I mean, we really wanted to look around and see who has been, who could help us in our future, you know, strategy. And I think, like the fact that, you know, you know, Draper always been investing in Bitcoin companies, not only Bitcoin companies, right? So that has been very important for us. We didn't want to just have Bitcoin early investor in a way. We really wanted to have a little bit of aspiration to go more mainstream. And I think Draper is like one of the best in that aspect. They really like very horizontal. They have connection across many industries. And most importantly, the Bitcoin company they invested are, are my favorite company. I think there are three, four right now. I don't want to name, I don't want to mention, to not make some mistakes, but their own company, you know that actually work in the real world, and actually bringing Bitcoin to be used in the real world. And I think I like to say that, that we wish that that to be a similar pledge, to try to be something very concrete and very useful for for Bitcoin itself, but most importantly, the user, the user of Bitcoin.
Israel:Yeah, you. You've you've done a fascinating job, Marco with your fundraising and getting strategic partners on board. I mean, the Draper VC fund, as you mentioned, has been one of the most successful early stage technology investors in in Silicon Valley. Folger and axiom both, you know, incredible thinkers. We've actually had both Alan and Oleg on the podcast before. So you, you've, you've built a great team and and backers as well. So you know, hats off for that. And maybe we can transition now into how arc labs actually works. Marco, so maybe, what are the different solutions? Because, as I understand, there's this layer two, more transacting solution, and then there's also a recently launched operating system called arcade, which I believe is more on the programmability side of Bitcoin, right? So we'll be getting maybe a little more technical now, but what are the solutions that arc lab provides
Marco:so, so I think, in a way, we started to with this journey to work and try to figure out the security property of arc protocol, right? But the same time, you know a protocol is not a company, right? So you actually need to build services, or, like, actually monetize that, otherwise you're not a company, or just, like, a non profit organization. So we right away understood that arc in a very simple way, is a compression technique, no more, no less. So in a way, like, if we see, and, you know, maybe people already using Bitcoin exchanges, they're familiar with the concept of transaction batching, where you do a withdrawal from a bitcoin exchange, you you will basically have a Bitcoin transaction where like exchange to save on fees, they try to put multiple customer right in the single transaction. So in this way they can, in a way, batch, again, compress a little bit their blockchain footprint and arc, just take this approach and, like, elevate to the next level in a way where, like, actually, we always consume a single, so called utxo, so a single Bitcoin transaction output, and in that single transaction, we can potentially, theoretically put 10s of 1000s of virtual transaction and in the end, this is, like, very interesting property, because, like, compression really helps in many, many scenario. One, you know, the Bitcoin fees goes higher, because it's very important to think about it that like fee are not calculated on the amount in Bitcoin, right? So you don't calculate, if I'm sending $1 million worth of bitcoin, probably I will pay pennies, right? Or maybe if I'm sending $100 maybe it will pay$10 and that amount of of the fee is based on what we call, basically the mempool. The Bitcoin man pool, is where actually we put the transaction to stay there for some time until they get included in the next block. So I think arc is just this. So we spent a lot of the time to say, Okay, let's say we build this compression technology. But like, what you do once you have this crazy compression, now you need to bring volume. Now you need to bring use cases, right? So, and in a way, like we look at it, and also maybe looking back and going on historical work and see where people were using Bitcoin the early days. Well, Bitcoin daily days was really used in a lot of programmable aspect. Everyone, every person was coming to me to do a purchase, especially the first time they were coming with a special address called escrow, right? So you can actually build already on Bitcoin, so called smart contract that are basically an escrow to protect you, right in this transaction, so you can refund, yada yada yada. So in a way, we lost that because people are afraid, or not only people, but especially businesses and startup to build on top of the Bitcoin layer one and build this kind of use cases, because in a way, like if tomorrow the fees spike, because there is an audio connection collection coming out tomorrow, and then there is a fee bidding war happening, and you need to shut down your business for a day. And that's really not good. Businesses will rather pay a flat fee or subscription fee per month. But they don't want to have a surprise. They want a predictable fee system. So in a way, these are like, again, like, I think what we are trying to work around is like the block space and block time constraint. And think arc is really trying to reduce two things. And in a way, like, Okay, how we actually bring this volume to actually enjoy and in a way, really leverage this compression that we're bringing to the table. And it turns out that, in the end, sure, payments is interesting, many use cases are around Bitcoin payments, but we can say that 99% of the payments in the crypto space are stable coin, right? So I think on that angle, there is the stable coin app. It were like we, of course, we are trying to work as well to introduce, you know, haset support. But again, like, if you're using Tron, if you're using polygon, why? Why you care, right? So you use the ray, that is it. And in a way, stable coin use cases are very mercenary, right? They don't really need your chain. They don't need to be on Bitcoin, in a way. So even though we will support still, payments is not something very captive. Is not something where we think we can build something good for Bitcoin itself, and that's why we think we introduce the arcade. And Arcade is our flavor, our way to commercialize an arc protocol. And would be, also be the name of our layer two, so called, right? So basically, people will be able to have a full fledged ecosystem to send transaction, to send bitcoin, send stable coin. But most importantly, do all the very basic primitive that we do expect from, you know, from from a blockchain in a way, right? So people get to know about Ethereum, they know about all these crazy financial use cases. But then when you look at Bitcoin, you can actually do anything of that. The only way to do those things in with custodians or exchange and etc. So in a way, we're really focusing on those. I'm very interested about Bitcoin lending. I think that's the most obvious use case that you want to do when you have your Bitcoin. And right now, you have many places in, let's say in other blockchain to use, so called defi. But you need to bridge your Bitcoin, which means you are introducing counterparty risk with, even worse, maybe sometime, a custodian, like who's running the Federation, who's running that wrap, that bridge, and notoriously, bridge has been very insecure, right in Ethereum, we've been hearing every six months about that hack, that other hack about the bridge so and also bridge, from a first principle perspective, a bridge is like a pot where all the money are concentrated. And if there is one risk, you have a systemic, you know, systemic risk for all the money of everyone, where, instead, with what we are building with, I think with the approach with arcade, we actually try to have you a pre signed transaction that actually can be go on real Bitcoin if you know, in a way, the system doesn't work. But in the most, in the best scenario, you're always transacting off chain. You're never touching the blockchain, but you're never bridging in a single pot where all the money, where all the money goes, in a way.
Lynne Bairstow:So can you, can you talk about use cases like, what does arcade allow developers to build around Bitcoin and the Bitcoin ecosystem that wasn't possible before, and Marco also, just in your vision for it? Are these all tied to financial scaling of Bitcoin, or are there other use cases? I know a lot of the the other projects around Bitcoin, and especially the ones that aren't truly tied to Bitcoin, you know are, and obviously we're talking in October 2025, so there's a lot of discussion about non financial transactions and on Bitcoin and then financial transactions. So can you, can you talk a little bit about what arcade does and what your vision for it is?
Marco:Yep, absolutely. So I think you can really The interesting aspect in Arcade is, like we are trying to introduce more programmable aspect that Bitcoin itself doesn't work. We see retain this virtual transaction semantic, which means instant execution, which means we remove all the limits that Bitcoin layer one has in terms of composing one transaction with another transaction that like unlock another, maybe contract and but beside the technical aspect, I think what we really think would be really interesting is like, in a way, creating the platform for FinTech, neobank and digital banks to actually create new type of use cases that actually use Bitcoin as a backend, right? And not only just, you know, we're still using the classic FinTech, right, the classic financial system, but you are actually basing new products on top of Bitcoin, which is really like an asymmetric, you know, way to deliver to your customer, because there is no central bank, right? So there is literally, like Bitcoin itself is a programmatic issuance, right? So Bitcoin itself is a central bank, right, which has a programmatic issuance of new of new coins. And why we stop there, why we are not creating also the commercial bank, and why we're not creating also the FinTech in a programmatic way so they can offer services, financial services, but the same time they don't want to hold the funds of their user. I think that's a very maybe nuance, but the same time, very important, like most of the FinTech don't want to freeze your account. They have to, because the system is like, well, we are getting, like, an account from the I have a license from this regulatory body, and they need to, you know, follow many times financial institution. They want to offer financial services to you the moment they cannot do it anymore for many reasons. You know, I'm traveling. I'm a digital nomad. My proof of address is not. Would do anymore. And, I mean, of course, they say, Okay, I cannot give you a loan now, right? Because you don't have your, let's say KYC, or a process being being in the right space, but at the same time, they don't want to freeze your money. You know what I mean? So in a way, like, if you can create a bank of the bank of the future, I'm seeing, and I hope to create, you know, this financial primitive, this financial software for this new type of banks, they actually want to keep your custody, so you keep your Bitcoin, or you keep your asset right, but the same time, maybe I will just stop giving you a new loan or giving you a new margin account on your on your bills, but then don't want to freeze your or your money. That's not my job, right? My job is not to be a custodian. It's not to be your vault. This is your money. Whenever you want to do a financial transaction, we follow all the rules, and we do our financial, you know, application on top of it. So I think this is a very important aspect, which I'm very bullish, and I think also the fact, and this goes to, for example, Revolut in Europe, which is, like, the biggest FinTech ever here, in a way, even Revolut was whole the banking licenses right now they're talking about a stable coin play, and that, you know, really wonder, like, okay, they have everything they can do, really, everything they have a full bank license in Europe. Why they're exploring stable coins. So this tells me that if you want to go global, if you actually want to innovate faster, you need to actually not only innovate on the front end level, which I think FinTech are being very good, but you also need to replace the back end in a way. And the only way, for me is Bitcoin. That's
Israel:that's so fascinating. Marco. We were speaking just before recording. I was telling you that I I spent a little time at swift right before, before doing the podcast here with with Lynne. And you know, what you just mentioned was something I've been, I've been thinking about for years already. Of course, you know, having Bitcoin on the background, it gives you a clear picture of this. But all, I mean, all the so called innovation, and I don't mean to discredit, you know, FinTech innovation in any way, but what you mentioned is just fundamentally so important, because a lot of the past decade of innovation in FinTech has been precisely that the front end, right? It's just the how we interact with, ultimately, the same rails, and, yeah, it's those rails have even gotten a little more efficient, but you're still in a web of intermediaries that's connected to the, you know, Fiat central controller, right? So it's just fundamentally a completely different system. And what you just described with with arcade as an operating system for this programmability. I mean, that's, that's the really, the true vision of this decentralized finance concept that was talked about in the early days of Bitcoin. And then, you know, we got all these other blockchains, but then you get away from the decentralized Bitcoin network. So, so I think we, you know, many, many people have gotten kind of lost in that, in that zigzag path. And what you just described, as far as your vision for for Arcade is, I mean, it's fascinating, because that's, that's truly the decentralized finance platform that, and you have lots of money in the public markets right now, also chasing that concept, let's say, with these, these other blockchains, anyways, not to get too off topic there, but I mean related. I do want to ask you your thoughts on, you know, how, how are incentives aligned as arc labs, the company that's creating these products, because, and some could argue, okay, so you are a company, and you, of course, seek, you know, some healthy margins or profits, which we can get into shortly. But what's the centralization risk there, or how to have you mitigated for that within the arc ecosystem?
Marco:Yeah, no, it's a very good point. And, and I will, I will also try to go back to the analogy of, I think, cloud providers, because, in a way, like, you know, even the early days of internet, we thought about it, everyone will run their own server, they run their own mail. You know, protocol at home, that's how internet supposed to work. But it happened that in a way we couldn't right? But even think about companies here, the E commerce company, they had to buy their own server, they had to screw they had to have their own data center, right? So it was very high barrier of entry, right? Because you actually have to build physical infrastructure before you can focus on your own web application. And I think what Amazon did, in a way, popularizing virtual machine, is literally said, Hey, I will give you something that for you fills. You have your own server. You can log in, you can install your program, you can install your application. But at the same time, you don't need to handle right all the complication of the physical server, like we run maybe two, three, Beefy, big server right in a single location. We are the expert we focus on that. We just give you an abstraction, a virtual machine, that you can use it. And when you're not using anymore, you just shut down and you just pay for on demand. So in a way like unless we think that everyone will be able to run their own server, I think we need to follow the same path. We need to keep guaranteeing you you have your own server, you can connect, install your thing, right, and not depend on a single big, giant corporation that actually offer you e commerce services. So give the possibility to big startup to build their own e commerce, and that's how I'm seeing it. So that's why we're focusing on, like, giving you a virtual transaction layer, right? So you want to keep the security of Bitcoin in this case, of course, the analogy is like, I want you to keep, in a way, a credible exit path of real Bitcoin with no way for you to to you don't need to ask permission to a federation or to a third party to get your Bitcoin back. Otherwise, you're just a very custodian, right? So you're is not really a layer. So I think that's important. That's what we want to preserve, right? We want to preserve the security of Bitcoin, or at least as much as possible, close to the Bitcoin chestnut, ship resistant property, but the same time since we want to expand the usage of Bitcoin, we actually need to understand that. We need to make easy and very simple to build on top of it. So I would say the R protocol and arcade is sure a client server protocol, in the same way Amazon Web Services is a client server, not protocol, but it's like it's a client server company, right? So they do say they focus on like things where actually economy of scale are necessary, expertise are necessary. But same thing, they offer you a nice abstraction, a nice API to actually only focus on your own business, building a web application. That's what, what I'm thinking, if you want to expand, if you want to go from here to the next billion right of user of Bitcoin, we actually need to take into account that we cannot assume everyone will actually run the entire stock. So what is the best solution? My approach is, like, it's not like giving up, just like being pragmatic and say, Okay, what is the best they can do first without taking custody of the funds otherwise, like, we're like, just, you know, back to square one problem, right? So I don't want to take custody. Okay? Now, eventually, yes, there is a force in architecture to to be more like client server, but that also mean being efficient and actually solving problem and actually onboarding companies so they can build on top of their businesses. And those companies are the best to make Bitcoin more than just a static asset, but actually be programmable money. You need company. You need them to innovate. You need them to create their own use cases. We cannot come up with everything. So I think these are more like, Okay, let's take a pragmatic stance, but the same time, try to be as much as possible, not, you know, in custody of funds, and try to give as much as possible the property, the property of Bitcoin. That being said, of course, our theme is full of like first day bitcoiner. We always wish to try to decentralize as much as possible. So if I can make you know another analogy to a cloud provider, what if the console right so the control pane of Amazon can be, actually be decentralized, so anyone can actually acquire a stake, maybe, or put something there. And maybe the same way, maybe you're buying the shares of Amazon, but you're not controlling the Amazon Web Services control plane. But what if we can replicate that aspect, and of course, like we're trying to research in that direction, and we think that whenever we will reach very good scale. I think that will be something that will pay off the research we are trying to do, to also try to decentralize and to remove ourselves, to not be captive, right, but actually trying to always building the next innovation on top of it, right? Because in the end, there is no moat, right? Or if we think that we create a moat, just by the fact we are creating, we are the first and we are there. I mean, that will just be parasitic, and will take zero time to a big incumbent to just copy our code and just do that. So how I'm seeing is like, I will try to decentralize as much as possible for how efficient can be. But same time is the rate of innovation that is important for our aspect to actually always be the first to understand very well the system, in a way, always try to propose maybe flagship product. On top of this infrastructure we are building.
Lynne Bairstow:This reimagination of financial services on Bitcoin is fascinating. It also brings to mind, I mean, when you talk about fintechs, and I've worked with a lot of fintechs over the years, but regulatory issues are always important or considerations, because you're talking about non custodial, and you're talking about kind of one layer up from Bitcoin, does that bring up any, I mean, and that sounds to me like it's more private. So as. People may or may not be aware that everything that's registered on the Bitcoin Blockchain on the layer one is is traceable. I mean, you know which address it is, so it's actually one of the most secure ways of being able to follow transactions. But you as a company, if you're on this layer above Bitcoin, and you're compressing the amount of transactions, where you have millions of transactions, would you fall under any regulatory scrutiny for tracking those transactions? Or how do you think about, how does arc labs think about privacy and regulatory balance?
Marco:Yep, we, of course, as you know, first time Bitcoin or the team, we care a lot about the privacy as being like a fundamental right for every human being. So for us, it's very important. And they will say, there is, of course, is a very huge topic, right? So I think I will discourage people to give us Logan about it, because it's very hard. In the same way, I think the peculiarity of the blockchain is, like, everything is recorded forever. And in a way, your bank account is more private than Bitcoin. Because, like, maybe your bank account is your banker, maybe the government knows about it. But like, think about maybe just a very basic aspect, like, you know, as a trader, if I'm doing, you know, any operation on a public blockchain, everybody, especially my competitor, will see my trade right? And I think that that's really very bad in a way. And normal banks, normal, you know, fiat money, digital money, in a Fiat in a Fiat account, right? They actually more private, more confidential, or at least, right? So at least you are off this public ledger of transaction. So I think that that's an aspect where, like any, I will say any layer two, but especially that Bitcoin native layers to, like Lynne, and what we're doing at arcade, they remove that blockchain footprint, right? So you remove that public trail, you know, on the permanent blockchain, in a way, and this is just like making very standard normal to how the financial world work, right? So we're not like doing something more anonymous. We're just like doing how it should be, right, trying to move all the costly purchases, all the small, you know, loans, micro loans took by millions of people, half of a public ledger, which, in the end, is very costly. It's very expensive, right? So I think that's that's the first aspect. So we really try to improve the current situation, and try to move to a system where at least you know who is your like intermediary, or who actually are access of your data, but not entire public and especially not in the future, when maybe right now is okay, but in the future, maybe you'll want to disclose something. So I think, like forward, privacy is also very important, of course, as you can imagine, as a company, and I think we've been maybe even the first even before started writing one line of code, I will say we've been very mindful to trying to understand how the legal framework heals around what we are doing. I think the peculiarity, what, of the aspect, I think, of course, is very it's changing, right? So the regulatory oversight happening in the last two years, especially in us, would totally change it. It flipped 180 so anyway, if you ask me this question two years ago, I was like, okay, very, I would say, hard to answer. I think right now, there is more optimism, in a way where regulators are like, in a way, like trying to, not to fight what is, in the end, inevitable, right to happen. We need to innovate. And if you innovate on the financial aspect, you also need to innovate on the regulatory aspect. I will say that, you know, our approach here is like trying to use cutting edge technology that try, in a way, to remove as much as possible liability to us in terms of, like visibility on the transaction. One thing which you know, in Arcade also introduce on top of on top we are introducing is the usage of secure enclaves or trust execution environment two years ago. We're very early. Right now, we think, based on our search, to be a very important, a very important aspect so we can actually operate cloud computing services in a way where we can prove we cannot see data, we cannot actually see into it, and this is very important sector, like aI right now, they're looking about confidential compute or confidential, so called confidential inference, for many reasons you know. Like, imagine if you are, you know, you're on hospital, or maybe you're a defense or a government agency. You don't want to throw all your data, you know, to chat GBT, right? So to a California based company, right? So for obvious reason, like, it's impossible to have all the intelligence be an API of a private company. So I think that aspect, we're just, like, trying to piggyback basically on, like, what is the cutting edge in terms of, like, being confidential, regardless of financial transaction, right? So we actually need to start from the assumption that we don't want to be. The middle as much as possible. So we're trying to leverage on side trust execution environment for this, and also to improve our trust assumption as operator, to offer maybe a better user experience, to wallet, a better services to build on top of us. So we are trying to take all the SAP again. There is no one solution. And of course, you're trying to work with regulator as much as we can to create pain. But I will say, in the same way, you know, roll ups like, you know, Coinbase has his own roll up, right? Call base, I think we, we're very, very similar in that aspect, as you know, as a regulatory frame as we as we working towards. So we think, actually we have way more example. We're not just like one of a kind, maybe like four or five years ago, right now, there is so many, much example across the industry that we can actually leverage for our own benefit.
Israel:Fascinating Marco, and I mean, if, if you do this right, the the amount of economic activity that you're going to unlock through this programmability is is, I mean, it's a bit mind blowing. And to the extent that you can share Marco, who are the type of, you know, maybe beta users that I would imagine for this operating system. You're maybe looking at Bitcoin native custody solutions, lending solutions, maybe derivatives products, exchanges. I mean, give us an idea of who these early interested clients or potential Bitcoin native solutions are that you're speaking to? Yeah,
Marco:absolutely. I mean, of course, as a vision, I really think that what we are trying to create, if you're successful, is will be a blue ocean. So we are going to create new type of company, new type of business model that don't exist right now, right? So company that don't exist without us, and that that will be the best case scenario. But you know, it will take time. It will take a lot of work to reach there. So at the same time, want to be pragmatic and see where right now we can be helpful to current business or current business model. And I always try to mention that, you know, actually, Arcade is not a competitor to lighting network. We actually improve lighting network in the same way lighting network can help arcade, because, like when launching right now with arcade live, we can deposit right now to cut to Coinbase or to binance, thanks to lining, right? So, and I don't need to go down condense and hey, exchange support now arcade, but like lining is is like kind of Lynne gua Franca, right? So there's like connective tissue that actually custodian, and let's say layers like us can use right away, without asking permission, to connect to other layer, to other exchange, to other ecosystem. And I think the biggest star, which I'm very excited to partner with and to work with, is bolts. Bolts is this like non custodial exchange, so you'll it allows you to go from Bitcoin on layer one to lining, or lining to liquid, or lining to road stock, right? So in a way, they're trying to take all the OG Bitcoin layer twos and trying to became a sort of bridge between them, just because you're using the Eastern settlement of Lynne to go over. And they are literally a business that is built on Bitcoin, they wouldn't exist if bitcoin wasn't around. And the interesting aspect like, they need also scaling because, like, if they need to grow and they need to get, like, 1000s of swaps right in the next second, the Bitcoin Blockchain wasn't able to support and indeed, in May 2023 they had to shut down for one entire day. I always tell this story because it's very people don't believe it. But for one day, they had to shut down because there was an ordinary collection coming out, and the fees spike, right? Maybe the day before was like 10 cents. But then that day, $200 to get in the next block. And they had to say, Guys, we are shutting down our weapons service. We cannot operate. And that's why I think for them, building on top of arcade will basically be a way to have a predictable fee model, and will actually be able to scale much more other chain, or much more other layer, because then they have a way, they have a buffer. So they don't always need the Bitcoin Blockchain when they need Bitcoin, because settlement in a way. So I think we are trying to focus on this very Bitcoin native company. Another is Lynne dasat, which, you know, just announced their open beta. They offer Bitcoin loans, so you can lock Bitcoin and escrow, and then you can get stablecoin or even Fiat, or even a prepaid virtual card on top of that. So in a way, they're trying to create a financial company without being a classic, you know, custodian, custodial financial company. And even for them, it's like, well, if you need process 1000s of loan, and a very small commercial bank in America every day is doing, you know, 1000s of loan, they won't scale on Bitcoin. So they really need. Need ourselves right now, without having the full fledge, you know, in a way, ecosystem being built out. So we're really focusing on like this. Bitcoin startups will understand very well the problem already. And in a way, we are giving them tangible value right away from the get go. And I think that's, that's how we were thinking. So we're trying to go with small players, with more fast they are also technologists. So they don't they're not scared. They don't need, like crazy stamp of approval for us, as you can imagine, being ourselves a startup. We need to conquer the market and credibility, and, you know, the trust of the general market. So in a way, we need to build and grow together with all this startup and help each other. But I'm pretty sure that down the road, you know, in the same way right now, stripe is looking very a lot to Ethereum world, because old ecosystem has been built in the last four years, right? So I think defi is a good word, right? Centralized finance is really a great, great word, just that we are associating too much, too many scans or too many things that happened in the past. But actually I think Stripe right now is building on EVM or Ethereum rates, because there has been doing a lot of test bed with maybe stupid use cases that right now we will regret about it, but in a way, they've been test bed, a test bed for their infrastructure. So that's we're seeing, and that's why I'm focusing on Bitcoin native use cases that actually cannot exist outside of Bitcoin, right? So if you want to do Bitcoin loans, you want to use Bitcoin as collateral, and you don't want to go over up Bitcoin in some federated or sketchy bridge, right? You want to be on Bitcoin as much as possible. And I think that's where, like we try to, we try to focus, and at the same time, you know, if you're able to create some new kind of structural financial products. You know, we're seeing the emergence in this cycle of Bitcoin Treasury company, right? We are all agree that Bitcoin is appreciating 30, 40% per year, so you don't really need to do anything. Just hold it, and it's fine. But in a way, especially in the West, we have this concept, and I think it will never go away. Put your money at work, right? And keeping hide all those Bitcoin, I think all the shareholder of this Bitcoin Treasury company down the road, the next cycle, will say, Okay, but what are you going to do with those Bitcoin? And honestly, I'm not seeing Michael sale or bridging their Bitcoin in wbtc in some sketchy bridges, you know, somewhere. So in a way, like, you need to build Bitcoin native solution, because, like is the easiest way for this new Bitcoin. Bitcoin Treasury companies in a way to evaluate risk, because it will be Bitcoin 80. They know that Bitcoin are there. They know there is a pre sign path to get those Bitcoin back without, you know, trusting that or that. Otherwise, they just go to financial entity, and that will be way better than go go to defy on other chain.
Lynne Bairstow:Maybe you can expand on that and just talk a little bit about how you're thinking about adoption challenges. You know how you get more people familiar with what arc Labs is doing? I mean, for me personally, I remember when arc was launched, when it was announced, when the whole concept was and at the time it came out, it was believed that it would take several years for it to to really be functional, and that there were changes required on Bitcoin in order for the functionality to really take place. And then you launched arc labs and prove that it's functional now. And and I think that there is some confusion that maybe people are have been working with lightning, and they think that arc is a competitor to lightning. And so how are you, how are you approaching the growth of your company and just the getting the message out that arc is a more is a flexible system that works with lightning, with liquid, with other players, that and that, it's an important technology base. So how do you think about that?
Marco:Yep, and this is literally my challenge. I will say, as a as I'm leading my team towards you know how to actually go to market? I think technology is important, but I will say it, it plays a minor role when actually you are like, need to battle with perception you need to battle with go to market. You need to battle with, you know, way more better funded company that, in a way, they're proposing the same solution, maybe worse on a technical level. But like in the end, the message is, what matters, right? Well, how you can go to market, how you know your strategy is that's very important. So I think I'm spending enough time in my more than 12 hours per day working to think about and try to evaluate and validate an approach on how we can actually create our own value proposition. And I think, in a way, yes, you were right, and we're trying in our communication to make clear that what we are doing is very well compatible with Lynne and actually really helping lining in many aspects. And I think that's that's how we win, right? So to be complementary and to try to give value, where, actually we really give value, right? So lining in a way, like people are in a phase where, like, we thought lining was, like this visa massacre, right? But actually it's more. Like Swift, right? And people got the delusion, their delusion. Are deluded right now about this, and we understood this. Maybe we could have launched something more scrappy six months ago. But the same way, what we realized is, like, nobody want to play with ALF baked or, like, just, you know, be in a garage and try with the server, like it was for Lynne, because there was a lot of hope in 2018 everybody was, like, with a super solution. We're, like, spending enough a lot of time, because there were a lot of enthusiasts. And right now we're like, on this like, okay, nothing works. I just keep my bitcoin cost storage. I don't think Bitcoin will ever be able to scale or to do anything more than that. Ciao, I'm out of it. So in a way, like we decided to, okay, we don't only build the solution and then wait for people to come, but actually what we need to do is create a full fledged ecosystem. So when we launch people actually, they see, you know, familiar brands or familiar names, or startups that already have already been solving problem in the Bitcoin space, and right now they can actually improve those problem even better, thanks to us, right? So we've been like trying to partner, and I mentioned again, I think this is a crazy team, amazing team. Bolts is one of the best team and I think that's why we really wanted to launch arcade with a full fledged ecosystem, to not feel like a cathedral in the desert in a way, right? So, yes, it's amazing, but like, Okay, what they what they gonna come to do here and in a way? So I think, of course, I don't think it's a solve issue, but I think that's, that's our strategy, and so far, we are getting a lot of positive feedback, and I'm pretty sure that, you know, from from here and onwards, will always be more and way more application and way more companies realizing that, you know, we're bringing value, and will also reinforce by themselves. And also, I hope, to make this company even more ambitious and say, Okay, now finally, we have the power, the gunpowder, to actually take back or reshore those use cases that maybe want to other blockchain right now.
Israel:Yeah, and you guys are very well positioned, I think Marco, because, you know, timing wise, you know, maybe the technology's been there for a while, or maybe you guys could have built what you built, maybe even, you know, I'll say three, four or five years ago. But it's only now I think that not only is the awareness of Bitcoin as an asset and technology starting to actually take, you know, take off, but on the regulatory side as well, you know, you are, we are starting to see, you know, kind of clear rules of the road, to put it that way. And I think you're at a very good moment where entrepreneurs are going to see opportunity and be comfortable with with trying to build the new businesses right on natively, on Bitcoin in this case. So yeah, I mean, I think, extremely exciting moment in time, and especially for everything that arc is working on. So we're really happy that you could join us to to get into all of this Marco. I mean, really, it's kind of what Lynne and I set off to do with build with Bitcoin. It was, you know, we said we need to show people that Bitcoin as a protocol, that you can innovate on top of it, right, like we need to start to showcase all these different, you know, value unlocks that this new protocol provides. And, you know, I I'm sure you feel the same way. Lynne, this has been an extremely exciting conversation. Could
Lynne Bairstow:have gone on a lot longer. So just Marco, just as we're as we're closing out for people who, for developers, for entrepreneurs, for you know, anyone who's thinking about this, what are some resources that you could point them to that would be easy, and we'll include these in the show notes too. But how can people learn more about what art labs is, is making available
Marco:absolutely so I think arcade with the K os.com I think is the best website. You will find there a documentation portal, which we update on a weekly basis. We do have also Twitter account, which we try to keep it active and try to share our journey. And you go by arcade OS as well as handle on Twitter and and I think, yes, also, we have a telegram group we will find in our website, if you want to get in the nitty gritty details with our team and explaining more technical aspect, I think we're always happy to to our conversation. And if you have any ideas, or even a crazy one that you think is impossible, come talk with us, because probably we can make it happen. Crazy ideas
Israel:and again, thanks for joining us today and really look forward to following the progress as well.
Marco:Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's been
Lynne Bairstow:a great conversation. We'll look forward. To having you back, because this is a journey we definitely want to follow. Thanks, Marco, you.
