081 - David Foley's Macro Lens on Bitcoin Treasuries, Smart Leverage, and Adoption Tipping Point

In this conversation, David Foley, co-founder of the Bitcoin Opportunity Fund, discusses the evolution of the fund from its first iteration to its second, highlighting key investment strategies, market dynamics, and the growing importance of Bitcoin treasuries for companies. The discussion covers deal flow, public and private market investments, and the valuation of Bitcoin treasury companies, particularly focusing on MicroStrategy's role in the market.

David Foley also discusses the critical role of capital markets for Bitcoin treasury strategies, emphasizing the importance of intelligent leverage and the ability to tap into debt markets. He highlights Bitcoin's unique position as a scarce asset and its potential to serve as a safe haven during financial crises. The discussion also covers the macroeconomic outlook, including the risks associated with the job market and shadow banking, and how these factors may influence Bitcoin's adoption and value in the future.

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Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Bitcoin Opportunity Fund
03:08 Transitioning from Fund One to Fund Two
08:17 Investment Strategies
14:13 Evolving Deal Flow and Market Dynamics
18:58 Understanding Bitcoin Treasuries
23:00 Valuation of Bitcoin Treasury Companies
33:32 Capital Markets and Bitcoin Treasury Strategies
40:07 The Role of Bitcoin in Crisis Management
47:05 Bitcoin's Scarcity and Value Proposition
55:33 Macro Economic Outlook and Bitcoin's Future

References
https://x.com/DFoleyBOF
https://www.bitcoinopportunity.fund/

https://www.buildwithbitcoin.xyz/
https://x.com/BuildwBitcoin
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❗ DISCLAIMER: This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any decisions consult a professional.

Transcript

David: 0:00

Eventually, even the US gets questioned again. In that world with Treasury rates going out like this, and the Fed printing money to keep the rates down, there will be only two safe harbors that people will run to, and it will be gold and Bitcoin. I think Dalio has that right. That's where I think you're we're going to have a conversation where you're like, oh my god, I can't believe bitcoin is already at this price level that I didn't expect to hit till seven years from now. I don't know what the probability of that financial crisis is, but it is on the bingo card, and it's higher than you think, and it will be just like that, the weight playbook of how the banks went it will be at the sovereign though the banks are going to be much healthier, but everyone will call everything into question. No one will want any counterparty risk of any bank, even any company, even if it's apple, with its ecosystem and cash flow, the fear will be that everyone's going to default on their phones and walk away. That'll be irrational, but that's what will happen. It'll be gold and Bitcoin. They're the two safe harbors, if you want to. It's just a matter of when. So I don't mean to be dramatic or hyperbolic, and I've been long winded by I think that that's how I see these things playing out, and that's why you're in the right space of Bitcoin. From a store value standpoint, no other crypto, just Bitcoin. And to me, Bitcoin, gold and silver, the soundest monies in the world right now. I

Israel: 1:24

Lynne, today we're joined by David Foley, co founder of the Bitcoin Opportunity Fund. Join us as he unpacks the fund's bold evolution from the first iteration to their current fund. Two discover impactful strategies for building Bitcoin treasuries the dynamics of intelligent leverage in capital markets and a deep discussion on MicroStrategy and broader Treasury company valuations, David has a sharp take on macro risks and bitcoins role as the ultimate sound money. Let's jump in as a reminder, this podcast is for educational purposes only. If you enjoy the content we're producing, please remember to share and leave us a comment. Thank you. Lynne and I are partners at baselayer advisors, where we use our network of Venture Capital Partners and startup founders to connect investors with unique opportunities within the Bitcoin innovation space. Alongside this, we help startup founders with their growth and fundraising. Visit our website's advisory section to learn more. Welcome to build with Bitcoin. I'm co host Iran. Munoz joined with co host Lynne Bairstow today we have the pleasure of welcoming back onto the podcast. David Foley, co founder and Managing Partner of the Bitcoin Opportunity Fund, David, it's a pleasure to have you back. Thanks for joining

David: 2:38

us. Oh, thanks Israel and Lynne, I appreciate it great to be with you both. Yeah,

Lynne Bairstow: 2:41

I'm excited about this conversation with Bitcoin Opportunity Fund. It's a little bit of a different type of a Bitcoin investor. We usually talk to venture investors or angel investors, and so David, you just have a great perspective of public plus private markets with your funds. So we're excited to get into what you're seeing in both of those areas today, no

Israel: 3:01

happy to take wherever you want to go and go any direction. It's not too long of a time period since we last spoke. David, a year is not much, but a lot has changed since then. So we last had a conversation with you and James in August of 2024 and you guys were off the back of fund one you had recently raised for for this private, public strategy that Lynne mentioned Bitcoin was at points 25,000 around that, that time period, hard to believe that we're we're seeing people upset about 110 120,000 now you know all that to say it'd be great to get your perspective now that you're on fund two, and we can get a little bit more into the thesis there. But what, what have been some of the key takeaways from fund one to fund two? David, just to

David: 3:51

refresh, we are the Bitcoin Opportunity Fund. We raised fund one like you're talking about Israel back in, God, I don't know what year it was now is that 2022 2323 I guess we were raising Bitcoin was crashing down from, you know, 40 something 1000 to 17,000 it was hard to raise capital. We raised, you know, about 13 million at the time. Happy to say that we turn around and drove really good profits on that. James lavish and I are the CO managing partners of it. Larry Lepard, Mark moss and Greg FOSS are advisors, and we have done basically about 78% of our investments have been on the public side in that fund. 22% have been on private venture capital deals or mining related ventures. You know, that's kind of what we were doing, and we did well. And we were approached over the last year about starting reopening the fund up, which we're not able to do. It's a closed end fund, but we decided to start a fund too. We just launched that here in q2 and that's been going well. We're about 35% toward our goal of raising capital on that. It fund is open. It's open every month any investor. And will remain open. So we kept this fund to the one key difference is it's an open end fund where it's any month, any new investor can join the fund at the struck NAV of that month's value of the portfolio. We invest in public and private also in fund two, just like we do in fund one, you know, on fund two, we've been doing a handful of private deals so far in the first five months since we launched it, but we've been really active in the Bitcoin Treasury space, among other areas, in the public markets. I'm sure we'll get into that on our valuations in that whole space. Of what we see going on there, we've been doing kind of like private round pipe investments in those Bitcoin Treasury companies, where we're buying in close to one times, mnav and and so our view is that fund one and fund two will be kind of mirroring each other going forward, right? It'll be that's what we're doing when we do a public investment for that we like we're doing a pro rata allocation in fund one and in fund two. When we do a private deal, same thing. We're doing a pro rata allocation in fund one and fund two. And so we're attacking it that way. I think we're long term. I think we view ourselves as, as Lynne said, we're kind of a hybrid. We can do both a public and private. That's what we've all done in our careers. And we want to kind of just go wherever the opportunity resides, whether if it's a really juicy private opportunity, then we want to be a part of it. If it's a really juicy public we want to be doing that. We want to be doing portfolio hedging as well on the public side. For instance, right now, over the last few weeks, we saw some of the problems in the auto market, and so, you know, we were able to buy some really interesting, put spread trades on on some of the auto finance companies that are really paying off nicely now, over the last week, to hedge out some of the volatility of the portfolio, and why we see that as correlating with Bitcoin. If, if the stock market tips over in recession, Bitcoin could get volatile to the downside, we can dampen some of that with portfolio hedging. So those are the things we're doing, and we're really excited. We're seeing a lot of interesting not only public opportunities, but private as well. And last point I'll make is, you know, like we view ourselves as a little different than the pure VC companies in the space. We'll often invest alongside them, but usually they're the ones leading those rounds, and we're co investors along some of the deals that they're doing. We try and just make ourselves nimble right now so that we can kind of go wherever it is, but we're kind of very involved, but not quite as just singularly focused on early stage venture funds like those guys are doing with big portions of their capital. We're doing smaller investments in

Lynne Bairstow: 7:29

those deals. David, that brings up just a couple of questions about the makeup of the deals that you're seeing. I know when we last talked, you were talking about some distressed assets, which obviously at that time, you know, with the kind of the fallout from FTX and Celsius. So there were some some assets that were more challenged than others. Have those opportunities kind of gone away. And then, in terms of the innovation aspect of it, are you seeing more later stage deals, and is there any difference in the makeup between fund one and fund two, that you might be writing larger checks in fund two than you did in fund one. That was when pretty much all the Bitcoin companies were at earlier stages.

David: 8:08

Yeah. So, a couple thoughts. One, you're right, Lynne, like when we were starting fund one in the middle of 2022, in fact, I think out in Santa Monica, I remember being at that conference, and, you know, we were digging into the data room of core scientific at the time, right? And seeing all sorts of great assets there, which, you know, have now proven to be, you know, historically huge assets with the AI HPC trends that that has become, right? They're more than just a bitcoin miner Said another way, they're a power player. And so we were digging in deep in that, and we did, we were able to buy core scientific around $3 call when it kind of emerged from bankruptcy. But there really was no distress cycle. I would call it. During that period, there was very few opportunities. It was just kind of short lasting, and things kind of work just went through more of a workout, rather than a pinata, asset, sale of good assets. We were hoping we were all over it. So I would say that that really hasn't played out so far. But like everything in life, it ties come in, ties go out. There will be, always opportunities like that. We want to take advantage of those when they do come Secondly, you know, I'd say that, yes, we're seeing kind of, certainly more Series B type investments coming about. We've chosen to do some different private ones here recently. Two that we've done in the last handful of months are agility. Robotics is actually a humanoid robotics company. Basically, there's about a handful of good players in the humanoid robotics. Tesla is obviously up and coming. One that Elon's focused on, agility is a really interesting team. The CEO is used to run Microsoft's biz dev group and venture group. Her son is actually a core developer. She got him into bitcoin in 2012 she wanted us to kind of advise them on a Bitcoin Treasury strategy. Even though they're burning cash because they're building the business. We were drawn to it because of the quality management team, the fact that they're one of the top four, three or four players in this space, the fact that they are interested in doing a Bitcoin. Treasury strategy that we could assist them, and the fact that we would be able to invest in that at about a $2.1 billion valuation, which we thought was attractive relative to where a lot of these AI businesses are being priced at more like 15 to 30 billion. So it was both a value and a growth play and a Bitcoin Treasury play with a woman who's known as the core dev so there's a deal that's little unique to you know, that maybe the other people, I think some people, might even criticize us at one point, saying, Hey, that's not a Bitcoin deal. And our view is, well, no, it is. It's it's taking a good technology business at a cheap valuation with a good management team that's interested in exploring how to manage and try and move and manage their cash flow with Bitcoin. We want to do those things. We don't want to be the people that will turn our nose up at that. That's all good, because we think that can help change the world and change the path of this space of Bitcoin. And so there's one deal. The other one would be radar. Radar is an RFID technology. Peter Thiel had backed these guys who dropped out of college about eight years ago at Wash U to start this and Spencer really had a passion for RFID and what he's doing is in the retail business, like the targets, the gaps, uniqlos and American Eagles, you know, on average, your retailer only knows about 81% of their inventory at any one time where it is so 19% is basically going to waste that they're losing all sorts of value on that. It's tying up capital. You don't know how to move it from Nebraska to New York, where maybe those blue jeans are selling more aggressively at that time or and so these guys have a technology to track it and help save a lot of money. And it's the best cutting edge technology out there. The gap beta tested it and liked it at all their Old Navy stores, and decided to sign up for a multi 100 million dollar contract. American Eagle did the same. And American eagle in the gap invested in the venture. There was also the venture investors behind it. We came in alongside them, and similar to agility robotics, it was the same thing. It was they wanted us to advise them on a Bitcoin Treasury strategy. And so that was the overlay there, again. So not a pure Bitcoin company, but an interesting, innovative AI related technology to help retailers manage their cash flow better. And that's brutal and vital rather, in that industry, but us also helping them with understanding Bitcoin and a Bitcoin Treasury strategy was interesting to us. I've been happy to say that we invested in that March or April, I guess it was. And then they're already out there with a series B at a much higher valuation, from where we invested. That was the Series A round we were in. You know, it's all all good. I mean, I think that that's we're trying to find interesting private deals that are unique, and obviously plenty of stuff in the Bitcoin, pure Bitcoin technology related plays too, that we have invested in here recently and that we're looking at actively now.

Israel: 12:49

Yeah, that's fascinating, David. You know, I have great respect for you guys and the team, precisely because you have to stay so nimble. You know, as as you're looking at both public and private markets, and then the pure eco Bitcoin ecosystem plays, and also these bridges from traditional tech and finance that you're referencing, and you know, maybe going going off the back of that. I'm curious how has deal flow evolved from fund one to fund two? David, you guys have much more name recognition as well. The industry, of course, has grown. Private and public markets are waking up to Bitcoin. What's, you know, what are some of the notable differences? As far as you know? I don't know whether it's, you know, geographies or the size of the deals, maybe the check sizes that you guys are doing. How have things evolved in these last 12 months of deal flow. Yeah.

David: 13:42

I mean, certainly that was one of the reasons why we like doing fund two. It kind of goes back to the point you just made Israel, and what Lynne was asking about before, of check sizes, our ability now to have more scale right where, luckily, our fund one has grown nicely, where we now have more capital to deploy that we can sell down public securities if we find an interesting private deal and do a bigger check, and then, combined with fund two and having resources there, we can do bigger checks. So that's certainly one. Number two, geographically, we are hearing a lot of more reach from things like Latin America and Central America and South America, as well as Europe. Not a lot in Asia. Yet, we have not really been, there's some stuff there, but it's been more crypto related. And so we're trying to stick to just the Bitcoin space, just to do one thing and do it well. And so we're doing that. But I I'd say kind of, those are kind of the two of the bigger differences, you know, as we've kind of now migrated to to fund, to raise fund two and growing. And, you know, I think beyond that, it's a lot of Bitcoin Treasury stuff. Obviously we've been very involved in over the last five months. That's been the hot space. A lot of lending type stuff we're seeing and looking at some that we want to be careful on. I mean, some of it just feels like paper Bitcoin to us and and I personally don't see a lot of demand for some of these things. In other words, some people would be better off. You. Or holding their own keys, or trusting a more scaled custodian, because you have no idea what some of these smaller ones are doing, if they're rehypothecating capital, your Bitcoin on the other side, through lightning and things like that. So I won't name names, but there's a few that we've looked at like that that give us a little bit of pause. And yet, look, I mean, to be clear, I mean, I think the Bitcoin Treasury companies themselves are a form of paper, Bitcoin and and again. Yet I'm used to that, having invested in the gold space and silver space for a while, that you know paper gold and paper silver exist, and then you get these moments where suddenly the market tightens up, and that will happen to in Bitcoin. And anyone that you know is writing a short side of any paper form for Bitcoin will be in deep trouble and and they get the heck out of the way. You're watching that transpire in silver and gold lately as well, of that short squeeze happening, and now that will happen here in Bitcoin as well. But so there are paper forms out there of Bitcoin that have emerged, but, but, you know, you just got to be careful. And, and I guess the last point I'll make is we're pretty discerning. We're very careful. I think the nice thing about being on a Bitcoin standard at our fund and having public opportunities to invest in, we're very picky and choosy of what we're going to invest in and what we're not on the private side. We want to be careful not to find something that is just maybe too, too early for its time. You think, think internet 1995 right? A lot of interesting businesses like pets.com right? Companies like chewy made that into a great cash flow business a decade later, but they were eight years or nine years too early in pets, dot coms case, selling pet food and pet supplies on the web. E commerce hadn't developed yet. We didn't have the fiber built out. I would argue that the medium of exchange, part of Bitcoin is going to follow behind the store of value run that we will have, and I think then the close follow behind it will be medium exchange. That's what I think is going to catalyze all sorts of interesting businesses in this space. We have to be patient. We have to be careful as fiduciaries, not to invest in something that takes 10 years to build out when we're really a 10 year fund. We've got to make sure it's something that's going to, you know, strike in the next few years, and so that we can deliver returns for our investors, so we have that fiduciary duty to be very picky.

Lynne Bairstow: 17:06

David, I want to talk a little bit about the concept of Bitcoin treasuries, and the way I look at it as two different ways. Like there are companies, two examples that you just gave being some of them of companies holding Bitcoin inside of their company as a treasury strategy. And then there are the Bitcoin Treasury companies, such as strategy. And I know that you guys have invested in a number of these, as you mentioned. But before we get to that conversation, which I really want to have, and we have not had that yet on our podcast, we stayed more on the innovation side than the Bitcoin Treasury company side. But when you're talking to these two, for example, these two companies that you did that wanted your advice on setting up a Bitcoin Treasury strategy. What is the advice you give them? What sort of allocation are you looking at advising them on? Does that grow? Does that rebalance? Do they adopt their Bitcoin strategy through cash flow, or do they take some of their assets and convert it into Bitcoin? How are you thinking about that? Because I think that's a trend. I mean, Israel and I are actually doing a lot of work on that, and we feel it's really essential for businesses going forward. But love to hear your take,

David: 18:10

yeah, I think so. Two camps. I'd say one, these are both startup growth mode companies that are burning a lot of cash right to really grow their business. I think some of their when I remember having an orange pill with the CFO at one of them where they weren't kind of seeing like the CEO was. And I explained, I said, Look, you've got to deploy 10s of millions of dollars every month where you're burning it out to grow your business, and yet you're going to go and raise well over $100 million you better make that 100 million bat for you in an inflationary environment over a few years, and so having some portion of your cash flow in Bitcoin as a store of value that's protected against that inflation risk is vital. Now that's a company that probably shouldn't put 90% of that capital in Bitcoin, given the volatility, but there's some portion that should have it. I think that second would be the companies that are cash flow productive. Let's be extreme. Let's say it's apple and they decide to go to a Bitcoin Treasury strategy. They probably can be a little bit more higher percentage Bitcoin exposure, right? Should they be more in that 15 to 20% camp, or whatever they're comfortable with? Probably because they can risk that amount of volatility, meaning it's not going to crush them. If Bitcoin goes through a down Valley on volatility for six months. Apple's got plenty of cash flow where they'll be able to make that back and yet protect the overall cash in the business over time. So I think that it depends on every company's unique in what their cash generation profile or cash burn profile is like. But yet it can make sense for either of those type of businesses. It's just a matter of, you know, kind of thinking through cash needs and how much cage cash needs to be around, so to speak, and those things. And I think it's important to walk through CFOs. And I've found that when you come in and have a real discussion around that of what their needs are like, the way any good going back to my Goldman Sachs days of like, you know, listen. The client. What does the client need? Work through it with them. Walk through permutations and multiple solutions. Don't just say, this is what you got to do. Have that conversation. Any good doctor does that too, right? Have a conversation with the patient. What do they need? Don't just tell the patient, hey, you got to go have the surgery. Talk about the risks and the opportunities and the options. I think the same thing is important when you're advising companies on Bitcoin Treasury strategies, really understand the business and what you're getting into, make sure that they truly are patient investors that can understand that this is a four year horizon. This isn't just because the worst thing you want is some CFO that panics when Bitcoin goes down 20% in a given quarter and they're freaking out. They don't understand they need to understand what we're doing here. You got to really hold their hand. That's how I see it

Israel: 20:44

build with Bitcoin. Is a proud affiliate partner of river. River is a financial services company that allows you to purchase, sell and transfer your Bitcoin, all through a great suite of products high security standards, and as of recent, even allowing you to earn a Bitcoin yield on your US dollar cash deposits for a personalized onboarding experience. Go to partner.river.com/build, with Bitcoin. That makes a ton of sense. David and I think it really does come down to what you just hit on. I mean, it can depend case by case, but taking into consideration time horizon and cash burn, you can form a strategy around that, right? I mean, I think for most companies, having no strategy or having zero allocation is probably not the right call, because that's just cash that's kind of being slowly inflated away, right? But that's that to Lynne's point is a fascinating topic for the private sector, and then you have the public sector as well. The Well, not necessarily private versus public, but let's say the Bitcoin Treasury entities, of course, pioneered by MicroStrategy, and we've seen a plethora of other public entities that are trying to tap into different debt and leverage instruments in the capital markets to just accumulate Bitcoin. I'm going to leave it very vague. What are your thoughts on this sector? Yeah. How do you think about valuation. So, I mean,

David: 22:01

look, there's, you know, what, just under 200 companies that have raised, you know, well over, you know, million plus Bitcoin in the last few years. You'll hear critics of the space, friends of mine in the Bitcoin space, that are very critical of these Treasury companies, saying they're paper Bitcoin. And I've said to them, you're right. I mean, in other words, if they're gonna, if, the way you think about that is if some if Grandma Jones in Nebraska comes and buys MicroStrategy stock at 1.35 times book where trades today, or mnav, theoretically, she could have bought one bitcoin herself, and yet she put capital into a company at 135 now, the good news is MicroStrategy turns around and buys the Bitcoin with it, but there are cases where maybe they don't, and so therefore, she's paying a higher multiple to book that's not buying quite the same amount of bitcoin that she would have directly. I see that nuance, nuisance nuance of some people that think that these are treasury, you know, or paper Bitcoin and not good for the space. What I see is it's levered ways to play Bitcoin, right? It's, I'm a believer that Bitcoin will be at well over 300,000 a coin in the next handful of years, right? Perhaps a lot sooner than that. But we're trying to be conservative. I'm also a believer that multiples for the scaled Treasury companies will expand. And so I'll share a screen here on Bloomberg here, when I look at, when I look at JP Morgan, if you look at their price to book they're trading at 2.3 times book value, right? And historically, if we run this analysis, you'll see that historically, JP Morgan's traded anywhere from 1.25 to upwards of three times book value. So JP Morgan has book value of assets, right? Loans that they're making returns on that drives cash flow to investors and shareholders. People are willing to pay a multiple to that because they are the scaled bank in the world. They are fortress balance sheet. They are well managed, and so therefore they get that now you look at like beacon financial. This is a Brookline bank was up is a regional bank up near me, outside of Boston. They were acquired by these guys. And so when you look at Beacon financial, BBT is a ticker that's trading at point eight, six times, Booker, just under one. Why is that? Well, they don't have the scale benefits. They don't have Jamie Dimon and people like my brother Kevin, that are at JP Morgan. They're running things that I think are well managed bank. And I think that you have these regional banks that have commercial real estate risk. They're smaller, so they traded a discount. I think that the Bitcoin Treasury space will be the same thing. MicroStrategy will be at 1.35 times. Mnav, or book value, is how I think about it, right? MicroStrategy has assets. Its book value is Bitcoin, and it's utilizing that book value today to generate returns by doing things like stretch and Stripe and and preferred deals where they are, you know, growing their their base. So if we look at MicroStrategy today, let's go to fa 101. You've got a valuation on this thing of 92,000,000,092 point $93 billion enterprise value, right? The debt is about 8.2 billion. They've got preferred as well. You know, in general, it's, it's around 6 billion. Are preferred as perpetual, it never matures. Then they've got convertible debt. And it's pretty spread out. 28 through 31 on maturities, right? It doesn't kind of come at them once. It's unsecured debt. They have done intelligent leverage here and managing it. And so when I look at that 93 billion, and I look at their 640,000 of Bitcoin on their balance sheet today, I think they can, kind of round numbers throw it at about 75 to 100,000 of Bitcoin per year each of the next few years. So let's just be conservative and say, All right, you wake up in two and a half years, and they have around 800 825 what's called 800,000 the Bitcoin. And if bitcoin makes that run to 300,000 then you're at $240 billion of book value when you wake up in a couple years, conservatively, you're paying less than 100 billion today. Or that why you're paying like, point three, five times future book value. AP Morgan trades at two, four. I'm making the pieces like MicroStrategy will be the JP Morgan of the Bitcoin Treasury space. Why? Because I think Bitcoin in those 300,000 range will be a tier one asset along with T bills and gold, it will be, they'll be able to do all sorts of things, beyond just doing preferred deals, borrowing against it. They could open lines of businesses. I do think at some point in 20 years time, MicroStrategy will be like Berkshire Hathaway or JP Morgan, where they can use that book I collateral, and open lines of businesses, like insurance lines, if they wanted to be it, where they can borrow against the Bitcoin collateral, and that that value at that time, it'll be two, 40 billion. We said, in this math case, you know, they could go and take 40 billion down against that and go open some business line of insurance that then generates more cash flow that allows them to keep buying Bitcoin every quarter. There's all sorts of ways they'll go. So I'm highly confident that MicroStrategy, I think, is one of the best Yu stocks in the world right now. I think it'll be one of the best performing stocks over the next five years, as it has been over the last five and then I think on your smaller Treasury companies, ie the ones that don't have 640,000 the ones that have 20,000 or less, they're going to have that regional bank thing. They're going to have work to do to get that multiple up towards one times M nav, to one and a quarter times M nav. And sure if they can do the accretive dilution strategy that they were doing in May and June that was propelling the stocks higher and the multiples higher, that will help drive that multiple to something higher than one and a quarter. But look, the good news is this, for all of them, the MicroStrategy, or some small Bitcoin strategy company, they own an underlying book size of assets that's growing at over 30% a year. If you believe in power law theory, those stocks are going to be fine. The question is simply, what's the right multiple for them, and what will the multiple expansion look like? I'm highly convinced that MicroStrategy will get that JP Morgan treatment and trade at call it two times M nav, not the 135, today, and it has growing book because of the ability to hit the capital markets. And that book value is going to compound at 30% a year. I don't think there'll be many stocks that will beat it so over the next handful of years. So I'll pause there, but I think that that's that's kind of how we see it is the scaled companies are better in that space. If you're a small Treasury company, you better be very smart, how you manage your leverage, how you're not buying private jets, how you're not wasting cash flow. You know the world is going to be watching, and if they see in quarterly calls and 10 Q's and 10k that you're doing frivolous things with the money. You're going to get severely punished. And those companies won't last long. And guess what? MicroStrategy will benefit. They'll be able to go and acquire all these things. Let's say someone, one of these Bitcoin Treasury companies, is just like BBT or beacon financial trading at point, eight times, mnav a few years from now. And MicroStrategy is theoretically is, say, at one five. And it's been a downturn in Bitcoin, they're at a one five multiple MicroStrategy could go off for them, a 1.1 M nav purchase price, completely clean house on the company. But take all the Bitcoin. It's accretive to the BBT shareholder equivalent of the small Treasury company. And it's a creative to MicroStrategy, because their stock trades at one five. In our case, we're saying and so it's a creative if they do a stock for stock deal. I said that to the Treasury team at MicroStrategy in a recent call. I said, you guys don't know it yet, but when the capital markets are closed during a downturn, all these Bitcoin Treasury companies that you can go and acquire allow you to keep growing even during a downturn when the capital markets are closed, because you can just do stock deals. It's another reason why I'm excited about MicroStrategy and their positioning here. So I could go on and on, but, but I you can tell that MicroStrategy, I think, is like buying amazon.com back in 2003 you're just going to compound for 20 years. You don't even know it yet, unclear what the timing will be. But I think their credit. With one position. Jim,

Lynne Bairstow: 30:01

it's been fascinating for me to see MicroStrategy kind of remake capital markets and even go back in, like the the preferred stocks and some of the convertible some of these, some of these types of vehicles and capital markets that we really hadn't seen active for 20 years. And, you know, with the negative and flat interest rate environment for so long, and now they didn't even really need the interest rate bump to them, because you have the underlying asset that's appreciating. But it's just been a fascinating experience to watch this and watch these resurrection of some of these different assets. But how important is that capital market play versus having an underlying business strategy for all these other Bitcoin Treasury companies. You know, Saylor has written, literally written, a playbook on how you can adopt this inside of your company, but in the various geographies, such as metaplanet in Japan and and smarter web company in UK. How important do you feel the, you know, having a being able to continually issue different sorts of instruments in order to keep the flow going? Yeah. I

David: 31:11

mean, certainly in capital markets are critical, right? And that's why, in my opinion, the ability to tap the debt markets with intelligent leverage is vital, right? And so metaplan has done a pretty good job in Japan of proving that out, that they're able to kind of start now tapping into that market a bit, I worry a little bit about Japan is starting to liberalize the ability for other institutions there to come into the Bitcoin space and for people to buy bitcoin. I think that could create a little multiple compression on meta planet. That's probably the one challenge there. But they're able to tap markets. Now, I think what MicroStrategy secret sauce is. He has such a head start and such a singular focus on building this that he's got that scale. Now he's got $70 billion worth of collateral value on there. Today, he's able to go issue 10% preferred stock deals that are eight to nine to one covered, meaning 70 billion of collateral, and he's got 6 billion of preferred and, you know, a few billion of converts above it, and most of that converts the stock goes up. That just converts into equity, it goes away. The point is, you're incredibly well covered in those preferreds at like nine to one coverage. If you believe that Bitcoin is a viable source of collateral, compare that with Argentina. You're buying 10 year Argentinian paper at 14% today. You're getting stretch in those at probably 10 to 13% is where they'll run that dividend over the next few years. I'd rather take MicroStrategy risk covered nine to one on that collateral Bitcoin, and take Argentina risk that's begging the United States for $20 billion swap lines three three weeks ago, and now it's had to get it to 40 billion just this past week. Like, you know, what are we doing? This is a credit bubble out there, and yet, you've got the most, fastest growth asset in the world, in Bitcoin, and you can go invest at nine to one coverage in those preferreds like fire a retiree, that's a big portion of what I would have for my fixed income exposure is the things like SdRC covered nine to one. So capital markets are vital. Sellers got a, you know, strategies got a great position there with having that collateral, and able to do it. It's why I'm very confident like I think they can do probably 10 to $20 billion worth of preferred each of the next few years. That's why I think they can compound, adding about 75,000 plus Bitcoin to the balance sheet every year on average, right? It'll be lumpy and volatile, but like, that's why, on our math that we walk through an 800,000 like, I think I'm conservative. Now we'll see on Bitcoin price. Maybe I'm conservative there too, or not. But the point is, the underlying book is going to grow at 30% and if you're able to go tap the capital markets and keep compounding that that's vital. The second part of your question, I think I heard is, you know, having a cash flow business that MicroStrategy doesn't right. Their underlying business doesn't generate cash. They're reliant on the capital markets. That is a risk factor. We all see it. But I think I laid out the mitigants to you guys that I think as long as they're conservative the leverage and they manage it well. And I think Michael and those guys learned the lesson well from the silvergate loan at MicroStrategy, and 2122 21 that that was a $200 million secured deal. And if bitcoin went to probably seven bucks, they were in trouble. $7,000 there they were in trouble that could have fully forced a complete margin call on it. And you know, they haven't. They're not doing any of that stuff now. They're being much more smart about it. But you know, capital markets are key point. If you're a company like him that doesn't have cash flow, I think if you're a regular operating company in the world, though, as we talked about before, having some percentage of your cash flow in this asset class makes sense, and I think I think the world's waking up to it slowly. I think we're in the second inning of this game where you have Ray Dalio, a month and a half ago, recommending that endowments and companies and individuals should think about having 22% 15 to 22% of their capital in gold or Bitcoin. Now, he prefers gold because it's more of an on the run asset for central banks. Right, for now, right? That that is the tier one asset that people are running to at Central Banks instead. T bills, but yet bitcoin is that only other non counterparty money, as he points out, along with gold, that people will run to in any crisis. And so I think that when you start seeing that type of discussion, you start seeing kind of companies, endowments looking at it little bit more closely now, and yet, we're still so early. I mean, I mean, there's so many anecdotes I could tell you. I'm there's a, again, a really great university, liberal arts college, up here in my area. And I'll say, in New England, I won't say the state, with a multi billion, over a billion dollar endowment. And I was approached by some of their people that work there. I won't Dox them, but they said, Hey, we're Bitcoiners, but, you know, we want to learn more. But I can't quite get ready to tell the university to convert to it. And I said, why not? Well, career risk. They were very honest. Like, I don't want to put my career at risk because it's it's like, and I explained to them like, Well, look, if you go to Nakamoto portfolio.com you'll conclude that 10% of the portfolio should be in Bitcoin, because your Sharpe ratio improves your reward over risk is greatly improved in the overall portfolio, but they're not there yet, and that's okay, like, you know that's that's how it goes, but, but I see the engines room warming up, and I think that when you get into the next crisis, whenever that will be the Dalio thoughts, our thoughts that we've all been talking about for a while, of having exposure to space is going to be vital. That will all play out. People will realize the only wrong answer is 0% it's it's got to be more in that five to 10 to 15% category. I think that's coming. And I see the wheels improving, especially as we raise fund two and the conversations we're having, that's kind of, I think one of the changes that I'm seeing on a macro basis.

Israel: 36:39

Well, thank you, David, I mean, that framing is extremely constructive. And, you know, you were just mentioning the career risk component. And in just in general, I think what's, what's so difficult, the underlying behind all this is that the book value, in the case of these companies, or, you know, the the pristine collateral that's backing them is sound money that's compounding at, you know, 25, 30% a year. And I think just that alone is is still just such a cognitive shock to call it that for, for mostly everyone. But that's maybe still doubtful on this, but it's, it's really just math and physics, right? So once you understand that we're transitioning into this sound money system, and that that underlying book value or collateral is just, you know, almost by default, compounding at that rate when measured in Fiat, then, then the framing you just laid out on book value, comparing it to these banks makes a ton of sense and creates, of course, a lot of opportunities. And to that point, I'm curious, David, does that scale in the chase in the case of JP Morgan versus the regional banks, and the difference in those multiples that they trade at, does that also resonate in the other let's say, mature stock markets around the world? So let's focus on maybe Europe and Japan or Hong Kong. Is that the same case in those markets?

David: 38:03

Yeah, it always is right. Because, again, if you think about and that's why, like, I know this summer, everyone's talking about in Mark moss and I on our team, really spent a lot of time having this debate and going through it, is price to M nav, is that? Is that a PE multiple, or is it price to book? And what I remember saying to mark is, and is seeing it now is that, as I learned in oh eight being in distressed debt, investor in the hedge fund at that time, and we were going through all the finance companies, every bank, every GMAC, you know, all sorts of non bank, finance companies, as my mentor there taught me, in a crisis, it's all about price to tangible book. That's all that matters, right? And no one talks about PE so it's like, if for finance company that's levered, it's what's the value of the assets, and how can I liquidate that if I had to to be covered? That's true of any asset, whether that's Bitcoin or car. If you were in g max case, in 08 we were investing that or airplanes at CIT group in oh eight, when we made a lot of money on those type of investments. I think that, to answer your question, where I'm going with this is price to book or price to end. NAV is always a function of if you're a higher multiple one, like JP Morgan versus regional bank or MicroStrategy versus a smaller Bitcoin treasury. It's a function of your scale, your ability to withstand time and space, your quality of your management, your quality of your assets and book and leverage, and your liability side and your asset side, and then the belief in the collateral, right? Were those airplanes at CIT group gonna be worth 50 cents on the dollar, like we thought, were those auto loan after delinquencies and defaults at GMAC and oh eight going to be worth kind of 62 cents on the dollar? Like we thought, that was the debate. Same math you're doing here, what's the value of Bitcoin and downside case, kind of, how do I how much am I willing to, kind of pay as a premium to their underlying collateral, Bitcoin for the upside case of in micro strategies case, the ability that a bitcoin is going to go higher B, that they're going to. Have intelligent leverage and continue to compound, adding 75 to 100,000 more Bitcoin per year on average, and see kind of, you know, just their ability to kind of grow and compound with that book. So I think that that's why people pay higher models for JP Morgan, because it's well run on all those fronts and has good sound diversified assets. I think MicroStrategy has that secret sauce. I think the smaller Bitcoin Treasuries are going to have to all find themselves and figure it out, and in some cases, they'll merge like you're seeing strive do that with Semler right now, and I think you're going to see more of that consolidation over time. And that's all healthy. And I think ultimately, again, I still continue to contend the way JP Morgan's able to snap up a regional bank when they want to go into a market like Boston and buy up, you know, branches, and that they can go pay a regional bank 1.1 times, and the regional banks trading at point eight, well, that's creative to that regional bank. They'll do that deal, that board accepts it, and it's accretive to JP Morgan, because they're issuing stock at 2.4 times book, and they're buying a business at one one, everyone wins. So MicroStrategy is going to have that huge advantage in due course. We're not ready to talk about that yet, but in a few years, you will be, and it's like Michael J Fox, and back to the future, right when he plays Chuck Berry, he says, a little too fast for you guys, but your kids are going to love it. And I think that's like MicroStrategy in a few years. And so, you know, I think that I don't know if I answered question, but the answer is, yeah, that's true universally in Europe, anywhere in any finance company. And that's what these are. These are finance companies. That's why, again, having that experience of trading distressed debt in the finance companies in oh eight reminded me a lot of that when I when we've been very active in the Bitcoin Treasury space, and we've been very active in it, investing in most of the major Bitcoin Treasury deals this summer where we were buying in anywhere from point nine, six times M nav, to 1.15 per anjay in Brazil is one that a point to that we have known guy Gomes for a while that runs it really love his team. Love how they're positioned in Brazil. Happy to you know, been a big participant in in backing them. And so when we're buying in at near one times M nav for a company and an asset that I think will be well managed, and that the asset is going to grow at 30% per year on average, and their ability to tap capital markets to continue to grow not quite like MicroStrategy. MicroStrategy has a huge advantage. I'm not sure anyone will catch them, but I think they have a chance to trade at a higher multiple To that end, nav than most. And so that's another example beyond MicroStrategy that we really like a lot.

Lynne Bairstow: 42:27

And David, as you're talking I'm thinking, you know, the comp with JP Morgan, which you know credit creation is, you know, in Fiat terms and banks and how they grow their asset. Bitcoin is a increasingly scarce asset. So can you comment on how you think about that? Because, you know, MicroStrategy, if they accumulate 75,000 Bitcoin a year. I mean, we're mining less Bitcoin every cycle and and we're at 94% of all Bitcoin ever being released. So how do you calculate that into your whole thesis?

David: 43:00

Yeah, so I'm going to pull up the slide that we all love going to right, which is here, I'll share one more slide here so we can talk through. I like to talk with pictures. It helps my brain kind of synthesize better. But the old Jesse Myers chart that we use in our slide deck, yeah, that, you know, again, golden. And I think this is overstating it, Larry, and I feel like, you know, a large percentage of this gold value is in antiquities, like, think, the Vatican and museums that's never going to be sold. The real on the run gold market is well under $20 trillion Bitcoin, I would argue, is less than 2 trillion. Why? Because over three and a half million coins have been lost, you know. And when people didn't value Bitcoin, when it was at $100 a coin, back in the day, you know, was being thrown around. And so there's been so many lost keys so And moreover, a lot of people handle it like a lot of us will be huddling this stuff for probably generations. And so it is more scarce than you think, with only about two and a half million coins on exchanges that trade. And so when you look at this, it's less than 2% of global financial assets. And in 1980 gold and silver, the sound money assets that time, were at upwards of nearly 10% of global financial assets after that crisis of the 70s. So you know, that would put Bitcoin and gold somewhere, probably closer to, like, $100 trillion relative to the 20 trillion today. You know, like, That's ridiculous, right? Of just how much of this capital and bonds in particular that's going to come flying into the scarce asset when we get into the crisis. And that's really Ray Dalio his message to people, well, this past few months of you know, gold and Bitcoin are the only two non counterparty monies, meaning United States dollars. You got the Federal Reserve and US Treasury on the other side of that, just like you had Lehman Brothers as a Counterparty in 07 US should be safe. It certainly reserves, reserve currency and leader, but I don't know. I mean, they might have to print like crazy and and I think that you know, equities are taking counterpart risk of each company, and bonds are taking the underlying sovereign. Work company and and real estate has its other issues of maintenance costs and inflation and taxes and and renters that don't pay. There are only two in crises that people will run to, which is gold and Bitcoin, these non counterparty monies. So it's a matter of whenever this crisis is playing out. And I think you got a little appetizer of that over the last month and a half or two with gold, where you could see gold shooting up. And why? Because the exchange has been drawn down in London and New York. Why? Because the central banks in Asia have been pulling off so much gold and silver off exchanges over the last 18 months, and the West finally woke up to that here in the last six months, and we started pulling back too. For instance, JP Morgan brought $4.8 billion worth of gold back to New York from London in q1 why? Some would say because Fort Knox needs to be replenished. Others would say that JP Morgan cannot afford to not be able to deliver physical if it's asked for something to note in the month of August, silver contracts on the COMEX exchange in New York usually are only 2% physical settled. It's usually 98% just a cash settlement, meaning Goldman settles with Morgan Stanley for cash. One's a winner, one's a loser. On the contract, no one trades the physical silver. For a few weeks in August, 100% of all silver contracts were being exchanged and settled physically, because the world is short physical silver and gold. And that's that same thing that will happen in Bitcoin. It's a scarce asset. So it goes back to your point, Lynne, of the beauty of Bitcoin is the inelasticity of supply. No supply increases happen. Even if bitcoin went to 500,000 next month, it would stay the same 10 Minute algorithm, the same scarce amount of 19 point 8 million Bitcoin in existence. Much of a lot of it that's been lost, a lot of it's being huddled very few on exchange. Now, there'll be more that comes out. You saw that this summer. We saw $80,000 Bitcoin transactions with some of the whales selling it. That's going to happen, but it still remains a scarce asset, and in any crisis, all this money is going to come flying into the gold and Bitcoin, this is just a matter of when, not if. And I think that something that we talked about offline earlier is I view that I keep talking as a store of value technology, and that's what I think Bitcoin sweet spot is today. I think as you get on that other side of the crisis, and as it does explode into a much higher value in a safe harbor along with gold, then people will realize the store of value, technology benefits of Bitcoin, the fact that it's divisible, the fact that it's portable, all those benefits and the scarcity understanding that has now grown, because by then, all the endowments will see it in the crisis. They'll be like, Oh, my God, I'm late bitcoins at 275,000 I should have bought it a couple of years ago when I was worried about career risk. Now they come in. Now it's moving. Now the institutions are coming into the space. Okay, on any great reset or other side of the financial crisis, the world will wake up and realize that Bitcoin, in some form, is the only real good sound technology that can be now medium exchange, where we can they'll all get used to using wallets and transactions, and us sending lightning payments to each other for Satoshis that that's divisible, that you can travel with it at anywhere. We won't be using our apple wallets anymore, our Venmo. We'll be using, literally, Bitcoin lightning type wallets and and such, that store of value, medium exchange, rather play, I think, will come very quickly on the heels of the store of value blowout, as I'll call it. That's how I see things playing. That's why, again, we try to be careful on any private venture deals we're doing that. You know, we've got to be right. Within 10 years of our fund, we got to make sure that this company is not pets.com where it was eight years too soon, it's rather a company that really will come into a great need in the next five to six years. That's why we're always having to make that judgment on any company, public or private that we're looking at. And now obviously, look Square's taking some big leaps toward that over the last few weeks, announcing what they're doing. And so I think all those things help. They're all additive. And I think it's a matter, in my opinion, of having that crisis where the store of value, exclamation point of Bitcoin kicks in, and then quickly that medium of exchange element will be really appreciated a lot, like how Venmo came about. It Slow, slow. And then all of a sudden it became a thing where we were all venmoing people all the time, and I think it will play that

Israel: 49:24

way. You're spot on as far as the importance of timing there on the, you know, private venture side of things, David and we are seeing a lot of advancements in the store value solutions and ways to custody it, as well as the other infrastructure behind bitcoin, the network and ways to move it. Layer two is the different scalability that we're seeing, medium of exchange, optionality that will come into into the spotlight and become more important at some point in the near future. To your point, but it does make me hopeful that Bitcoin is growing. I do see it that way, both as a hard money and. As a network, it's growing a lot more resilient each passing year, which is great, because it kind of needs to be ready to absorb a lot of this. And you are seeing some of the cracks, or fragility, to call it that, in some of these other asset classes when you were when you were showing that that chart of, you know, global value and equity and real estate and debt and all these markets. So maybe, as we close off here, David, we're in October of 2025, how are you seeing the macro picture? Of course, pound money is now suddenly in in the headlines. Everyone's talking about gold, a little bit of Bitcoin as well, but it's still gold that's dominating, I think traditional finance and macro. How do you frame macro right now in this moment of time?

David: 50:45

Yeah, so I'll give you kind of like, I'll try to send a two minute summary. I think that, look, AI is going to change the world. It's a big deal, but so was the internet. And that doesn't mean that valuations are not ahead of themselves. I think a lot of the AI valuations are way ahead of themselves. Mag, seven trades at 48 and a half times cash flow. That's too much. I don't know if I think these things are pricing in probably 2032 or 2035 earnings. When you hit a hiccup in the economy, people throw that overboard and they won't pay that suddenly they're not looking that far out. They're worried about six months from now on cash flows at their or their own portfolio. So I think that was Risk Number one. Number two is jobs. I worry that the job market is going to end up biting worse than we all think. I have friends from business school that are senior people at Amazon, and they've been saying that to me since June, that one of them said, David, I don't think the world appreciates just how dangerous this is about how we at Amazon are not hiring humans anymore. We're trying to do as much technology outsource we can, and that's spreading, writ large, throughout the entire economy. And so I worry that the job market truth, if you will, is going to come out over the next six months. That's going to be very painful to stock valuations, because now we're talking recession. The third element is the shadow banking system. You're seeing the auto markets beginning to collapse a bit. You know, we've been buying put spreads on Carvana, and we've doing very well with that. Jim Chanos was out there talking about it yesterday, and he's kind of calling attention to what we've been seeing. We've been looking at charge offs and delinquencies growing massively month over month in the 2024 ABS trust at Carvana, we think that that 66 times earnings, it was way overvalued. And so we don't short stocks. What we do is go and buy put spreads that mature next year. And so our view is that if the car market begins to turn into a problem, that stock will be in deep trouble, as it was in 22 as well. Moreover, they have issues like they have 55 to 75,000 used cars of inventory. One of the downsides of ice sending a lot of immigrants home from the United States is those immigrants are literally picking up and leaving jingle mailing in on the car. They're just throwing the keys. They're not paying the loan anymore. They're walking away from the used car that they took down when they got here a few years ago as a subprime credit that's going to be a problem. And so we think that those things are a little bit reminiscent of the MBS mortgage backed security stuff of 0506 and so we're trying to do that to manage our portfolio risk to the downside continuing on. I think therefore that Bitcoin has a lot of levered hedge funds in it, I think in the short term, Bitcoin could take a bit of pain, because there's that levered unwind. You saw that twice in the last two weeks play out Friday? Was it Friday? I think at 415 one time when it got cleaned down. Those are banks margin calling it and just selling the Bitcoin of the underlying hedge fund. They have no choice. So I think you're taking that risk. You saw that a little in gold here on Friday and Monday of this week. But here's the good news. I think that gold and Bitcoin are really well positioned as those two non counterparty inflation hedges. I think that this is a global debt problem. You saw the United States. If we zoom in on that, Doge couldn't really reduce cash. You couldn't reduce cost much the student loan debt forgiveness. The Trump administration, again, is talking about this week, even though they campaign saying they wouldn't forgive student loans, they're having to do it. I don't that's not criticizing their administration. I just think it's the reality of a debt based system. They have no choice. They it's the Lynne Alden point of nothing stops this train. They've got to keep printing. They've got to debase the currency, to debase the debt, right to be able to pay down the fixed debts with higher dollars in the future by growing GDP through inflation. That's what's going to be at play. And I think the world is waking up to that debasement trade with gold and Bitcoin and gold in particular, over the last few months, showing that. I think that's going to continue to play. But just like gold in the Weimar Republic was, if you look at charts, you can Google it. It was volatile, like this month to month. You could not be levered. You have to be really careful. You're seeing that in gold here in the last week, and you'll see that in Bitcoin too. But if you can sit tight and be right, you know, as Jesse Livermore once said in the 20s, you know you're gonna you're on the right side of this trade in these sound money assets. And I think that I worry about recession risks to land the plane, then I worry about some of. Those things biting. And then I think what happens is the deficits blow out the next recession. They're going to have to print so much money they have no choice. And again, I think that the biggest 2008 fear I'd have is that the Argentinian crisis, with their bond market being lost in the US, having these swap lines, that that starts to spread to places like France and the UK at some point in the next few years, or sooner, and now us is providing swap lines to them, and that's exactly what happened with bear. Stearns in August of oh seven, then became Lehman's problem when bear got taken over by JP Morgan in March of oh eight. Lehman became then on point starting in March and April, a little earlier than that, but they were the problem. Then it was Merrill, then Bank of America, then Wachovia, and then every bank was Goldman. That's going to be like that with the sovereign level, it'll be Argentina, becomes France, becomes UK, and then eventually even the US. His question. Again, in that world, with Treasury rates going out like this, and the Fed printing money to keep the rates down, there will be only two safe harbors that people run to, and it will be golden Bitcoin. I think Dalio has that right. That's where I think we're going to have a conversation where you're like, oh my god, I can't believe bitcoin is already at this price level that I didn't expect to hit till seven years from now. I don't know what the probability of that financial crisis is, but it is on the bingo card, and it's higher than you think, and it will be just like that. The weight playbook of how the banks went it will be at the sovereign though the banks are going to be much healthier, but everyone will call everything into question. No one will want any counterparty risk of any bank, even any company, even if it's apple with its ecosystem and cash flow. The fear will be that everyone's going to default on their phones and walk away. That'll be irrational, but that's what will happen. It'll be gold and Bitcoin are the two safe harbors that people want to it's just a matter of when. So I don't mean to be dramatic or hyperbolic, and I've been long winded by I think that that's how I see these things playing out, and that's why you're in the right space of Bitcoin from a store value standpoint, no other crypto, just Bitcoin. And to me, Bitcoin, gold and silver the soundest monies in the world right now, and will be best positioned. And I think then, then again, we'll get into that medium of exchange element. And so many of these businesses that we're all looking at will thrive, particularly thrive on that other side. So it's a matter of which startups can be withstand the storm. Think amazon.com as a bookseller in 99 was standing the storm, figuring it out, turning it into a major distribution business, ultimately turning it into an AWS model at Amazon. It stayed alive. It figured it out. It was learning it was getting better and stronger. That's true of every Bitcoin startup in this space who can survive, who can be thoughtful, not wasting money on hiring other fraternity brothers or private jetting it like being really smart managers. That's that's vital right

Lynne Bairstow: 57:47

now. And then the career risk will be not having Bitcoin in your as part of your portfolio. And who? So who has not seen that wisdom? David, this is just great. I mean, we could talk for hours. I'm sure we have, like, a whole list of questions that we didn't even touch on. But I do want to, I mean, I want to circle back to the the fact that you have this fund to the open fund, available for investment. But in addition to that, if somebody is curious, what other resources do people have that they can follow? What your train of thinking is, you and James are just really well known in the in the space, in terms of your macro perspective. So we'd love for you to point our listeners to other resources that you might make available to them. Yeah,

David: 58:31

so I'm more the quiet one on the team, but I am on Twitter, and I don't post a lot, you'll find me pretty boring, because I've got my head down here trying to just figure out portfolios, but uh, D, Foley, B, O, f is my Twitter handle. James lavish is out there as well. If you want to learn more about our fund, we're at Bitcoin opportunity dot fund. Bitcoin opportunity dot fund, and you can put your name and email there, and Rosie on our team will get back to you. And we can, you know, happy to talk more about our fund, but we are open every month for new investors that are accredited and qualified investors and and throughout the world, we also take IRA money as well in the fund. So a lot of people are investing in portions of their IRA retirement accounts with us, we are potentially opening an offshore master fund as well that's about teed up, and I think in the new year we'll be having and launching that. So any offshore investor, like in the Cayman Islands, our entity will be so we will have, you know, the tax efficiency of the fund structure set up by then as well, by beginning of the year. And so that's, yeah, that's where you can find more. Again, Bitcoin opportunity, not fund.

Israel: 59:35

Well, make sure to include all of those links in the show notes. David and your vast amount of experience and objectivity is much appreciated in the in the space you know, really thankful for all the work you do in the broader Bitcoin and macro ecosystem, and of course, for your time today. We really appreciate Lynne

David: 59:55

and Israel. I appreciate everything you guys are doing this space. So thank you very much, and thanks for having me.

Israel: 59:59

Well, pleasure. Sure, David and we hope to have you back on that at some point in the near future for for another checkpoint, thanks.

David: 1:00:06

Thank you. You.