084 - Highlights 79-83: Bitcoin's Quiet Revolution in Treasuries, Scaling, and Real-World Uses

This episode of the Build with Bitcoin podcast features insights from builders and investors in the Bitcoin space, discussing the evolution of Bitcoin, treasury strategies, scaling solutions, and innovative use cases beyond financial applications. The conversation highlights the maturation of the Bitcoin ecosystem, the importance of long-term thinking among founders, and the role of institutional adoption in shaping the future of Bitcoin.

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Chapters
00:00 Intro
03:18 The Evolution of Bitcoin and Its Builders
06:02 Treasury Strategies and Institutional Adoption
12:19 Scaling Bitcoin: Layer Two Solutions
15:15 Innovative Use Cases: Beyond Financial Applications
21:03 The Future of Bitcoin: Insights from Investors

References
https://www.buildwithbitcoin.xyz/
https://x.com/BuildwBitcoin
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❗ DISCLAIMER: This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any decisions consult a professional.

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Lynne, this isn't for everyone. It's for the ones who know the old system is broken and are ready to build something that lasts. Welcome to the build with Bitcoin podcast.

Israel: 0:21

Welcome to another highlights of the build with Bitcoin podcast. In this set, we have four builders and one investor perspective. So the builder is our founder, Marco from arc labs, Jesse from ambas technologies, Jose from Arcadia B and Carlos, from simple proof and the investor perspective is from David Foley, a managing partner at Bitcoin Opportunity Fund. They're involved in both public and private markets. So lots to unpack here. What? What are your thoughts on some of what we have lined up. Lynne, I also want to mention that three of the five are actually repeat interviews for us and but the the information is not repetitive, because in in these three cases, all three have gone on to update us on the innovation and the progress and the developments they're making, which I think is a really good sign. I think it kind of underscores what we're looking at, is that we're really at the beginning stages of a lot of development on Bitcoin. So we had Jesse from Ambus and Carlos from simple proof that have really significant announcements about how their company has grown over the more than a year since we first talked to them, and then Bitcoin Opportunity Fund. So they were launching their first fund when we first talked to them, and it was a challenging time and in the Bitcoin Mark market from a financial standpoint, but they have had a really successful first fund. They're raising their second Fund, which is on kind of a perpetual close, so open to additional investments, and just what they've been able to see and propel in the market has been really strong. So I love the fact that, you know, since we've been growing, we also are following the the growth and the continued innovation and and success of the founders that we've been that we talked to early on in the in the podcast, and I think it shows the maturation of the space, right? It is growing in a very healthy direction. And to your point, there's a couple of repeat conversations here that really go to show all of the advancements that can happen in one year in this case, right? So let's maybe set the stage with how to think about these, these different, these different approaches to building on on the Bitcoin protocol. So we, I think in this set, we see a very clear formation of how Bitcoin is is basically a multi layered protocol in that you have the base layer and then you have people who are building by anchoring on to that base layer. So high level, we have here builders on the base layer, specifically Arcadia and David Foley's perspective as well. On the Treasury side, we have layer twos that are payments and programming side of things. And then we also have simple proofs, innovative use of the base layer through a non financial use case of information integrity. So yeah, a lot we can start off with the with the maybe Treasury theme. Lynne, what do you think on the base layer side. So we have Arcadia B and, of course, David Foley also had some plenty to say on this topic. But what are some of your thoughts on the Treasury side? Yeah. And I, you know, I think that if you follow the Bitcoin space at all, of course, the Treasury companies, starting with strategy, MicroStrategy, Michael saylor's company, you know, has just given so much fuel to the fire to Bitcoin in terms of institutional adoption, remaking capital markets and really innovating that financial aspect of Bitcoin in on an institutional level. And we haven't really spent any time on our podcast talking about it, because it's more financial engineering than it is. You know, company building, which is what we tend to focus on more innovation and entrepreneurship from a pure, pure standpoint, instead of from a capital market standpoint. Yet, obviously, we're fascinated by it. We watch it, and we see how strategy has been a leader in showing how Bitcoin as a foundation can really change the trajectory of a capital raising structure, as they have shown, can that be

Lynne Bairstow: 4:29

transmitted into a startup founder, or how does that apply? And through many conversations, we've seen that having Bitcoin in a Treasury can really support a founder's ability to retain control of the company and also lessen the dependence on needing to raise capital. So anyway, it was really fascinating for us, I think, to explore the whole concept of a Bitcoin Treasury with David Foley, who talks specifically about strategy and also talks about the overall Bitcoin Treasury company space. What he sees in terms of what will make an ultimately successful Treasury company, and really lays it out to where strategy could be, like the Rockefellers or the JP Morgan or the anchor financial institution of the future, and why he believes that. And David is one of the smartest minds in terms of macroeconomic thinking and and viewing long term perspectives hard money. So it's a it's an excellent episode for listening to that from that perspective, a little different than what we usually get into on our podcast, but I think it helps bring to bear why this is such an important space for innovation and the role that treasuries can play and what the future financial institutional layer may look like. And then it takes it down to Jose, you know, who is a builder who implemented a treasury strategy early on in his company, which is a exchange and on ramp for Bitcoin in Mexico, specifically, and how that really did fund his company over time, and then how he switched. And Jose's company, which used to be called capital X and now is called Arcadia B, and what their path is in terms of being able to offer Treasury types of instruments or new financial instruments in the Mexican Public Market, specifically in the pension space, and so it's a, you know, it's a great way of looking at it from from different perspectives, and how the capital markets really are important for kind of a leadership role in terms of what startups can can look to do. But I'd love to hear what your insights are and takeaways Israel. I mean, some what Jose is doing in Mexico with Arcadia B, I think is super important. You mentioned pensions there, and there's, I think, with capital markets and with these public companies and public securities. I mean, strategy has, of course, been the one to shed light on this. But it is fascinating to see how many pockets there are in each country of capital that can't access

Israel: 7:06

just regular spot Bitcoin, right? And so in the case of the pension funds in Mexico, for example, I think that's a super interesting angle that Jose also speaks to the afores, which is the term for these pension funds in Mexico. And, I mean, you really get into a really important aspect of the future financial well being of the country and of these pensioners. to Bitcoin exposure, I mean, it's all ultimately going to protect them from all the debasement that's that's inevitably happening. So it's, it's a very to your point. Lynne, it's not a topic we get too into, um, but it's a very fascinating one. You do see, just globally, this trend of more and more exposure through the capital markets, through the public capital markets, to to Bitcoin, which I think is also in its in its own merit, a very healthy evolution. But the the aspects that that David highlights, as well as how to look at this through the investor lens, I think, to me, it's, I think it was the best framing that I've heard to date of how to look at the valuations of these companies, because it's a, it's a messy topic, right? Um, I mean, you, you're in six months time, looking at companies that were valued at, I think, something like, you know, 10 times what they hold in in Bitcoin to now, at the current, you know, November 2025, timestamp less than one time. So the market is clearly kind of chewing through this still. And David just does a really, really good job comparing it to how he sees banks that are traded in these public stock markets valued to in comparison to their book value. So yeah, fascinating conversations. And and looping back to Jose's work with Arcadia B, I mean, he he's a very mission driven founder, and you can tell his his vision is long term education and and he mentions the kind of Trojan horse approach as far as just getting initial exposure to Bitcoin, and then people kind of gravitate towards just being a little more curious. More curious. On the self custody side, yeah, what was, what were any takeaways? On that end, I'm smiling because you're just hitting on something that I loved our conversation with Jose, and the mission driven aspect was something that really stood out. Because I think in the whole Treasury company's conversation, you've seen a lot that have appeared and popped up, possibly just to take advantage of the moment in the capital markets, where there was this arbitrage of being able to raise on Bitcoin and access

Lynne Bairstow: 9:56

investors that you may not have been able to before. But Jose, you. You know, clearly, it's like his mission is to orange pill Mexico. And so he, he sees having a treasury strategy, especially the pension. I mean, he wants to, he wants every individual in Mexico to be able to to have some bitcoin, whether it's individually purchasing it, or for somebody who's not even aware of it, to have it as part of their pension plan, to protect against the high levels of inflation have historically occurred in Mexico and other parts of Latin America, and just protect, you know, currency protection and purchasing power protection. So you know the whole conversation with him, just learning about money in a US university and becoming a little disillusioned with the process, and then finding Bitcoin and just his total ethos on you know how Bitcoin can really help build a stronger financial future, especially for those who have been left behind in the past. So I loved our conversation with him, and I think it mirrors what we find so often with founders throughout the world who are coming from places where the you know, the opportunities are not as evenly distributed for individuals to get ahead financially. Yeah,

Israel: 11:11

and there are some regional insights as well, as far as Mexico and LATAM. So if you're interested in some of those perspectives from a from a company building in Mexico, and take taking on this, you know, public listing journey. Give, give that one a listen. It's, it's a fascinating episode. And the Treasury conversation, just more broadly, is, is an important one, and I think it's an important one to just work through as well, because it can be a very broad topic. But for a private company, it's, you know, maybe a very different mentality than for a public entity, like some of these that we're speaking to. And then in the private sector, I mean, how do you differentiate, you know, a small business owner from maybe high growth technology startup and their cash and burn needs? So it's there. There's lots of kind of angles to look at this through, for the startup side, which is a little bit more of of our audience. The importance as well of building a Bitcoin treasury, right? So we're not talking about just this, this strategy or meta planet approach of let's leverage all these instruments and do some financial engineering and in the public markets to just accumulate as much Bitcoin as possible. That's one approach has its merits in that space. But on the startup side, I mean, we just see this as basic financial health that can extend the runway of a company. It can protect the company from being overly diluted. It instills that long term thinking that's very important for a multi decade company to survive. So yeah, on the startup side, I mean this Treasury component we've we've gotten a lot more into it in recent episodes, and I think it's extremely interesting. I completely

Lynne Bairstow: 13:01

agree. I think it's one of the most important. Most important learnings that you and I have had on this journey of interviewing companies and investors, is how Bitcoin on a in a startup's balance sheet can really help align incentives between the investor and the founder, and I really hope it leads to a new type of funding vehicle, or options, optionality for funding for startups that just gives the founder a little bit greater control and still gives investors healthy returns, but just makes it a little bit more of an even playing field between investor and startup

Israel: 13:37

build with Bitcoin is a proud affiliate partner of river. River is a financial services company that allows you to purchase, sell and transfer your Bitcoin, all through a great suite of products, high security standards, and as of recent, even allowing you to earn a Bitcoin yield on your US dollar cash deposits for a personalized onboarding experience. Go to partner.river.com/build, with Bitcoin. You know, you mentioned incentives there. It's funny some sometimes, you know, you can think through it incentives from the, let's say, philosophical or ideological lens, but I mean, we were showcasing that well aligned incentives lead to very healthy financial outcomes as well, which is, it's just important to keep that in mind for anyone listening. I mean, well lined incentives lead to just great outcomes for all, basically, maybe transitioning over to the other content in this set. So we let's talk about the scalability of Bitcoin, which can be a complex topic. In this set, we had a very interesting couple conversations on different approaches to scaling Bitcoin. So on one hand, we had Jesse on from the Lightning Network, and then we also had Marco from arc Labs, which is a. A different approach to this layer two, scalability side of Bitcoin, arc labs, focusing more on some programmability aspects of Bitcoin and enlightening, of course, is more of a payment approach, and they ultimately end up working together. I think it was, do you remember that conference recently in Europe, Lynne that I think archives and and lightning were both used as the payment infrastructure. I'll take honey badger, yeah, yeah, that's the one. So, I mean, what I'm getting at is a lot of these solutions end up actually being interoperable and just make the network a lot stronger. But, but, yeah, let's maybe start with the, you know, with the with the payment side of things, and lightning. What were some of your thoughts from Jesse's updates? Well,

Lynne Bairstow: 15:47

I mean, I think just from a foundational standpoint, we all understand that Bitcoin, on its own, as a as a very secure layer foundation of global finance is not going to have the ability to process the amount of payments that take place on a daily basis globally. And so these layer twos are really important, and it's been one of the biggest focuses of innovation in Bitcoin is, how do we how do we make payments, which is the original concept of Bitcoin, peer to peer Electronic Cash System. How do we actually implement that. And so, you know, Jesse through amboss has really been focusing on the Lightning Network. And one of the things that is so exciting is he's found a way to add liquidity to the Lightning Network, which is needed. I think it's been very good for making smaller transactions, but when you get to scale, when you get to larger transactions, it's been challenging to have the liquidity inside of the lightning channels that you need to find it for processing larger transactions by using AI to properly channel you know the the payment flow to the appropriate channels, and maximizing the fee revenue that somebody can earn by staking their Bitcoin. He's found a way that you can custodial, keep sell yourself custodial Bitcoin. So put your Bitcoin to work, earn a fee revenue. So it's not interest on your Bitcoin, but it's actually generating a fee by providing the liquidity in the in the lightning channel, and improve the liquidity overall in the market. And this is such an exciting thing. And you can see by you know, we've been talking to Jesse. We talked about the fact that he'd been on earlier, but just the evolution of ambos as a company and how they've continued to solve some of these, these, these growth challenges that lightning has had, and now to really, finally come to come to this particular product called rails, and the demand that he's had for it is just really outstanding. So it just shows that people want to put their Bitcoin to work. It's almost like using Bitcoin as working capital, or being able to generate a fee on it, and then providing an important, needed aspect to the system that just it makes it much more viable as a payment layer. We're, you know, November 11, 2025, yesterday, block part of, you know, square and block square announced that they're accepting bitcoin payments on lightning throughout their entire network, opening it up to something like 4 million merchants. So lightning is a big story, and having the liquidity to process the payments. I think we're only going to see more and more use of the Lightning Network. So really applaud Jesse and Tony, his partner of ambos, of what they're doing in order to really facilitate the growth of the Lightning Network and support it. So really great conversation. And just points to, you know, what can come in the future. And he talks a lot about the the additional path that they're on, yeah,

Israel: 18:43

and I'm glad you mentioned the square news as well, because I think it is one of those signposts that goes to show how quickly we might be moving into these other medium of exchange and network effects of Bitcoin. And yeah, to your point with the rails product from ambos. I mean, I forget what the exact figure was, but if I'm not mistaken, I think they had on their wait list something to to the likes of, I don't know, between 30 to 50% of your global capacity currently in the in the Lightning Network, wanting to try out some of amboss's technology, and being able to get some fees by providing liquidity and yeah, I mean, amboss as a company, is just fascinating for anyone interested in lightning, specifically give our past episodes with Jesse from amboss A listen, because they're working on all sorts of tools. They're incorporating AI machine learning and just really providing some innovative and efficient tools for for how businesses and individuals are interacting with the Lightning Network. So, yeah, you, you're, you're spot on. And I think we're, we're quickly moving into a phase where we're. We're seeing a lot more activity happening on these layer twos. And another such case of that is, of course, arc Labs, which is building on the arc protocol. So that was that conversation was with Marco, the founder, and arc Labs is, I think, also one to definitely keep a pulse on. They're working on some very, very interesting things. And, you know, they, they basically just developed a very clever way to be able to program natively on Bitcoin through their technology. So I think, for me, the the best way to kind of stage this, for the listeners, is there's been many approaches in the past to trying to apply more smart contract functionality to Bitcoin without having to go to other blockchains and tokens. And most of the other attempts at this involve some sort of bridging or Federation models, which, like it or not, gets into you're losing a lot of the maybe core decentralization ethos of Bitcoin and arc Labs is doing a very creative approach to being able to apply programmability natively to Bitcoin, bitcoins protocol. So the conversation with our collabs, I mean, it was really fascinating, apart from the technology. I mean, conceptually, I think there's just so much to be explored there. Marco gets into some of his vision on all the applications that can be that can be built on arcade their operating system, you know, from stable coin use cases to lending and how he sees many Neo banks and fintechs using some of arcades programmability features. But what were some of your takeaways from the arc labs conversation?

Lynne Bairstow: 21:49

Well, and adding on that agentic AI? I mean, I just think you and I talk about this often, but it's like the potential, you know, as we keep seeing AI and agents and llms and the use of, you know, tools like anthropic Claude and grok and, you know, chat GTP. But you know, it's like, we're going to have a payment layer that's already in there. And I think, you know, arc, that labs with that they're building, you know, is really positioned to help facilitate that agent to agent financial transactions. So you know, when he talks about scalability of what they're able to do with their protocol, it's fascinating. And I think that they really are setting themselves up where that could be one of the biggest growth aspects. But two things, one was a comment that you made in the interview Israel, because you had, you had experience, you know, you'd worked at swift for a while, and just you were commenting that, you know, the promise of FinTech, which has really been just kind of putting a different user interface on the existing financial rails, that arc is really reimagining and recreating these financial rails. And I thought that was just a stellar observation, because you lived it. You see it, you understand those rails, and you can see what the difference is between what arcs building through arc labs and arcade, you know, on top of the arc protocol, versus what currently exists. So I liked the fact that your perspective and your experience was able to visualize that so clearly, then the other is just kind of a personal issue. When you look at Marco, you know, Marco started working on Bitcoin when he was in high school, and he's still a very young founder, but with incredible network because of how long he's been working on it, he has experience with liquid block streams layer two, and he's still on the foundation of liquid. He had a research company that kind of explored these and developed, you know, really important relationships before finding a product market fit, basically some element that he felt that he could really build, utilize the arc protocol to build on top of the Bitcoin layer to create greater scalability, and then took it to market. So, you know, you you don't often see founders who have that wisdom at such a young age to develop the relationships, to really understand when you, when you go out to, you know, develop a for profit company that has the ability to attract investors. And so, you know, I just really enjoyed the conversation with Marco, and I just think he's a talent to watch in terms of being a founder.

Israel: 24:27

Yeah, they're bringing very important efficiency and scalability technologies to Bitcoin. So yeah, I highly recommend anyone interested in those topics to have a listen. And then maybe we move on to the last, last startup of the builders, which was simple proof. So that was with Carlos, one of the co founders of simple proof. Take a step back from the, you know, financial side of things and conversation. Because symbol proof. They're working on something that's not, not necessarily financially related, right? It's a very innovative approach to using the Bitcoin protocol, and specifically the immutability aspect of the Bitcoin protocol. So, you know, sometimes think, many people think of Bitcoin and immediately associates, you know, the price tag to it, or the money aspect. But let's not forget, it's a it's a massively powerful computer network that's decentralized around the world, which makes it very resistant proof and immutable. And so simple proof is basically anchoring to this, this decentralized computer network, and the immutability side of it for information integrity. So, very different type of conversation. There very different use case. But what we're what are some of your takeaways? This is our second conversation with Carlos in the past year. And lots of updates there. Yeah.

Lynne Bairstow: 25:56

Well, I want to start out by saying that I am of the camp that Bitcoin should be a financial protocol number one, you know, one and maybe only, but I but I also do understand kind of the nuances of the technology of the Bitcoin protocol, and really feel that in this particular age where deep fakes and information manipulation and false information is so it is becoming increasingly rampant that what Carlos is attacking with simple proof is really, really important. I think it's critical. So the the way, I probably would not be as enthusiastic a champion of simple proof if it took a lot of space on the Bitcoin Blockchain, and it doesn't, it's like, it's a tiny footprint that each information timestamp, you know, secures and so, and we get into the technicalities of it a little bit more with Carlos, but it's just that by by entering the information in a very, very conservative way on The Bitcoin blockchain, you guarantee that that information is solidified. So when we see any and he's and he's approaching it from a governmental standpoint too, because that's important. I think governments, you know, if you, if you change regimes, or change political parties or whatever, you can go back and say, well, this happened and and, in fact, it didn't. And so this way it, it secures the information on the Bitcoin Blockchain, which will be in perpetuity, you know, so that you can verify the truth. So I think truth is such an important commodity today that what they're doing is is a really core part of what I think Bitcoin can solve, not just for financial truth, but also just truth in general. So I love that episode. And I love the the the efficient way that he's using the information storage on the Bitcoin Blockchain to secure the truth. So I I really, I love this really important use case of of the Bitcoin Blockchain, time chain, actually. And I like to use the word time chain to differentiate it from all the other blockchains that actually can be reversed or rolled back or whatever. And the word blockchain never appears in the Bitcoin white paper, which surprises many people, but it doesn't, and I think it's more accurately described as a time chain, which is exactly how Carlos approaches it. What were your thoughts?

Israel: 28:22

Yeah. I mean, precisely Carlos is anchoring his whole value proposition is going off of the time chain, right? That, that there's an immutable proof in this point in time. So, um, yeah, I think the time chain reference you make is is particularly relevant to what simple proof is working on. And thanks for also highlighting that that block space component of it, because it can be a sensitive topic and and they, they have a very innovative use of Merkle trees and some technical aspects that you can listen in our previous conversations with simple proof and Carlos and that to your point. I mean, they're just, they're just able to to prove that this information integrity existed in a certain point of time without having negative repercussions on bitcoins core monetary and financial uses. So, yeah, I mean, fascinating. I think simple proof is, I want to say, maybe misunderstood as far as their their potential, but I mean, you kind of referenced it in the beginning. Lynne is as far as just the digital age and with deep fakes and AI that we're only going to accelerate into, how you, how you verify integrity and truth in the digital realm is is going to be extremely important. And I think simple proofs potential is actually massive. So yeah, very interesting conversation with with Carlos, definitely one to watch. And you know, perhaps. We can leave things off there, on, on the builder side of things, of what we covered in this recent set and kind of landing the plane with some of David Foley's perspectives from the investor angle, specifically through what they're doing at the Bitcoin Opportunity Fund, investing in both private and public markets. You know, one aspect of the conversation with David, that's, I think, very worth the time listening to, is how they think about allocating capital in the infrastructure side of things. So you have a lot of these startups. Well, this just the startup world generally, is a lot of these, you know, kind of moonshot attempts at at making things 10x better, right? So startups, just by nature, are very risky ventures, and they're trying very bold new things and some things that haven't been tested before. So you have a very balanced view from David on how they look at all the opportunities that they're seeing through the Bitcoin Opportunity Fund, and the importance of timing, specifically, you know, and where, where are we in this, in this kind of maturation cycle of Bitcoin, the network, it starts off with, you know, it's its core kind of digital gold, or store of value, peer to peer components. And then, as we got into in this conversation, you get into all sorts of these other more complex and exciting topics, but David has a lot of valuable insight, and he's just one of the smartest people you can you can hear from as far as the capital allocator and investor side of things, on how they think through these cycles and how they deploy capital accordingly. I mean, what were some of your thoughts on that topic? Lynne, just

Lynne Bairstow: 31:44

want to compliment that with you know, we're so lucky to be able to talk to people like David and David with Bitcoin Opportunity Fund, he's partners with James lavish is this other Managing Partner, and James is also just an incredible thought leader in terms of current macroeconomic thought. But then also Larry Lepard. David's been managing a fund with Larry for years that's based on gold and sound money and and traditional investment. So I mean these investors, and I'm just like, super fan of Larry lepard's, you know, just I adore Larry and and his book, which the big print, which I think everybody should read, but you know, the perspective that they give informs their way of investing. So they are a fund that balances the private and public, as you mentioned, so they can hold spot Bitcoin when they feel the opportunity is correct. They can also invest in public companies like strategy, which obviously David is a big fan of, and has a, you know, has a very thoughtful position in it that he explains, and then also invest in the infrastructure and the future, you know, the venture investing that will underscore and underline and help propel innovation on Bitcoin going forward. So I really love that approach, because we're so early right now in bitcoins innovation cycle. It's only 15 years, and you look at the the history of the investment knowledge that David Larry and James bring to the table of being able to view cycles and cycles of traditional finance and and traditional technology and what they see in gold, and then see how this interacts with Bitcoin going forward. So they're really great people to listen to, to get some perspective on a broader on a broader sense, and also it kind of underscores what we do, which is, why is it so important to pay attention to these new builders of the infrastructure and the tools and the companies that are propelling the utilization of Bitcoin as a financial and other asset, financial asset, and, you know, the use, the use of Bitcoin and I and that's why we like to focus on these companies, like, like Jesse's, like Marcos, you know, that are implementing, you know, new, creative ways to build a new financial system that's more empowering for more people.

Israel: 34:02

Yeah, and to your point, David and the other investors you mentioned, just bring a very level headed approach to everything that's going on, because you you have to pay attention to the the cycles in the capital markets. You have to pay attention to what's going on in in macro and broader global liquidity, and you have to pay attention to where we are in the technology adoption curve, right with all of this going on that we just highlighted. And this is just one set of, you know, over 80 episodes that we've done, so there is definitely a lot to get through. And all these guests bring some just fascinating insights. I mean, I truly encourage people to to give whatever is of most interest to you. You know, the the time to listen to, because you you're able to absorb a lot a lot of learning from from each of these conversations. Maybe wrapping things up here. Lynne, what were, what were some of the I guess. Common Threads between, perhaps, maybe on the founder side, between these, these founders, they're working on very different technologies and different approaches to building with Bitcoin. But I think we continue to observe a lot of you know common denominators. What were some things that jumped out for you?

Lynne Bairstow: 35:19

I think you know more than anything. And we see this, not just in this last five episodes, but also amongst all the episodes that we've done, is just the lower time preference that a Bitcoin focused founder has, that they have a longer timeframe of you know what the what success looks like. They have a more patient approach. And that goes to fundraising too. Fundraising is still challenging in the Bitcoin space, because so few investors really understand it. There's a lot less capital in the Bitcoin founder space. So relationships are important, building the relationships early, thinking long term, and then attacking the problems that are real in terms of, how do we scale Bitcoin? How do we bring it to more people? How do we, you know, make the tools easier to use and provide, you know, more aligned incentives between investors and founders. So, you know, I think those were some of the takeaways that we heard in these conversations, and we heard them before, too. What stood out to you?

Israel: 36:21

So to your point on long term thinking, let me just pull specifically some quotes from the different conversations. So Marco from arc labs, we decided to focus basically for the next decade. Jesse from ambos, we're looking very long term. Carlos from simple proof, mission driven generational thinking. Jose from Arcadia, built through multiple cycles, patient capital approach. I mean, these founders truly are thinking very, very long term, and so you have to have patience, but, but, I mean, I'm certain that a lot of these companies that we've spoken to in the podcast in you know, 510, years time, are going to be some very big companies. So it's fascinating to see the long term thinking that was built into the Bitcoin white paper proliferate through society and and through, you know, anyone participating in this ecosystem. It's super exciting. I mean, you you hit on the main ones. Lynne, I think the only thing I would perhaps add is the patience and strategic thinking from a product building perspective, there's just a lot of value in there. So, I mean, you know, Marco speaks a little to the of the R and D that they had to do in order to to kind of bring arc labs to life, and they're still in that process, really. I mean, we're still very, very early stages of this and proving out some of these concepts. But he speaks to all of the research and development that they had to go through. The importance of building your network. Jesse also spoke to some of the network effects that are very important for their products to actually succeed. Arcadia, he spoke to his, you know, some of his failures before launching their current iteration of the product.

Lynne Bairstow: 38:10

And his path for, you know, rolling out different other financial instruments to be, to be a truly all around financial services company, you know, based on Bitcoin, so with lending and other operation you know, and self custody options,

Israel: 38:30

exactly, and so, from the you know, kind of company building perspective, they're just very fascinating conversations that They

Lynne Bairstow: 38:39

are simple proof, starting with governmental entity applications. But, I mean, you just let your imagination run wild, and anything that needs information verified or confirmed as being accurate and truthful, you know, that's the market.

Israel: 38:55

Yeah, yeah, and you have to iterate, be patient and stay true to your vision. And they, they're all very different examples of that. So, you know, that was, I think, a very interesting common commonality that, you know, I took away from those conversations and, you know. And interestingly enough, these we had quite a bit of geographical representation in this set. We had, you know, we had Italy, us, Guatemala, Mexico. So it was, yeah, you you can tell that this is a global network. And the builders who are plugging into this are, you know, they, they can come from anywhere, really, which is, which is fascinating to see. And also David, I think, spoke a little bit to that, you know, they're, they're, of course, based in the US and very savvy capital allocators, but they're, they're also not at all shying away from international opportunities. And quite, quite the opposite, you know, they're looking, they're just looking globally at all the talent and everything that's going on. And, you know, they get an. Their perspective from the investor lens as well. Any closing thoughts here? Lynne, I mean, we got into a lot in this set, but

Lynne Bairstow: 40:06

I think, no, I think you expressed it perfectly. I think this is a, you know, we do these highlights so that, hopefully, without having, you know, it saves time and helps our audience hone in on, you know, exactly what episodes resonate with them the strongest and where they want to listen. But no, I think increasingly we just, I loved the fact, as I pointed out early on in the episode, that we had three people come back on the show during this group of five and give us really exciting updates that are meaningful. It's almost like a whole new company or a whole new use of innovation that they're they're working on. So I like seeing that trajectory.

Israel: 40:47

Yeah, we're lucky to have a backstage seed into all of the innovation happening behind this protocol. Yeah. We hope you enjoy these, the summaries and some of Lynne and I's takeaways. You