The Enlighten DXB Podcast

Ep22. The Forgotten Path Into Manhood, Men’s Work & Brotherhood

• Erika Welch • Season 1 • Episode 22

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What does it truly mean to become a man in today’s world?

In this episode, Nic shares his experience with men’s work, men’s circles, vision quests, and the journey from adolescence into grounded manhood. Through years of facilitating transformational work for men — and attending the same men’s circle with the same group of men for 17 years — he reflects on the lessons that emerge through brotherhood, accountability, emotional honesty, and long-term commitment.

We explore why men’s circles have become such powerful spaces for healing and personal development, how men’s and women’s circles differ, and what many boys are missing in the transition from adolescence into mature masculinity. Nic also speaks about rites of passage, authentic purpose, soul calling, and what it means to “step up” as a man in the modern world.

This conversation covers modern masculinity, conscious manhood, emotional maturity, men’s mental health, personal growth, leadership, spirituality, and the importance of community and initiation in a disconnected world.

If you’re interested in men’s work, masculine development, self-discovery, purpose, brotherhood, or navigating manhood with greater depth and authenticity, this episode offers grounded insights and lived experience from decades on the path.

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Connect with Nic Woodthorpe-Wright

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nicww1/
Website: https://wwacoaching.com/

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Teaser & Introduction

SPEAKER_00

Oh my god, I need a place to bring this because this is something's gonna drive me nuts unless I can bring this. And it had to be a masculine space because there was a combination of anger, frustration, um, venting that brought me to that moment. But I needed men around me that could hold that. There are different facets of you that sometimes you need to call on, that either you're afraid to call on, you don't know to call on. And so in the conversations, we get to really expand that sense of what is the masculine here. We have to push, you know, uh adolescent men not into dangerous places but into places where suddenly they realize they have to call on their own abilities. And I have an interesting example of that that happened with one of my sons. So we're reading the map, and I'm reading the map with him, and eventually I said, Okay, you need to get us home now. And at that point, there was the this deep mist that landed, and we had no idea where we were. And and he said, Okay, I need some help here. I said, No, no, you're on your own. And it was a messy journey, trust me. We didn't, you know, we arrived late and and we were we were uh you know exhausted and so forth, but we arrived. And that evening I remember sitting with him and him with a level of pride saying, I got us here. Those are the moments that are very powerful in that transition from adolescence to manhood.

SPEAKER_03

I really want your perspective, Nick, of what does it mean to be a man today. If this show is resonating with you, don't just feel it, support it. Follow the show, subscribe on YouTube, turn on the bell, drop a comment, or leave a rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're tuning in. It takes just a few seconds, but it helps this message reach the people who need it. We feel your support and we're grateful for it. Now let's get back to the show. Welcome to the Enlightened DXP Podcast. I'm your host, as always, Erica, and I'm very excited today because I have, first and foremost, a dear friend who's sitting across from me, Nick Woodthorpe Wright, who is the founder and CEO of WWA Coaching.

Nic’s Journey Into Personal Development

SPEAKER_03

And we are, you know, I've envisioned this episode since we started because we've been friends for a while now. And when I think of you, Nick, I think of really what this podcast is about from the masculine lens. This is a podcast about spiritual transmissions, deep person of stories about deep personal transformation, um, the tools on how to get there for the daily spiritual warrior.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And so I'm so glad that you're here.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03

And the first time I met you, and for the first few years, actually, you had a necklace, a wooden necklace, that had an arrow pointing up. And that is actually the Norse symbol, and I love runes. It was the Norse symbol for spiritual warrior. And I think I told you that as soon as I saw it, and I was like, hey.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And so it feels very apt that you're here to dive into something I think a lot of men and also women, women are, I'm curious as well about the men's work side of things. But first I want to dive into, I guess, you, Nick, a little bit of your history. Um, I guess you could kind of give your age and where you are in life right now, but I would love a little bit of a a Coles Notes version of your journey as a boy to a man and where like this personal development journey started for you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I I can give you that, absolutely. And and so I'm 59. I've actually lived in the UAE now for nearly 32 years.

SPEAKER_02

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

Um, but interestingly, that wasn't my first experience of the Middle East, and and that's part of the journey that that I've been on. Born in the UK, um to uh uh a father was a pilot, right? So he was moving around a lot, and we ended up with a situation that allowed us as a family to go and be in Q8 in the mid-70s. And so having only experienced the UK as a young lad growing up, just like you know, all childs, children that just have that experience of being in your home country, then to be um I I guess like jettisoned on some level into such an alien world, which was Kuwait in the 70s in the mid-70s, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03

How old were you then?

SPEAKER_00

I was that would have been six. I would have been six, right?

SPEAKER_03

So really pivotal time.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. Probably your first memories. Absolutely. I mean, the arrival in Kuwait was that for me. We arrived in the dead of night, uh, didn't have uh any way of well, getting out of the plane, you didn't have these lovely air-conditioned corridors. You literally had to step out onto a stairway down to a bus. And I remember staring there, they opened the door and just being hit by this immense wall of heat to a point I could not breathe, and thought, that's it, it's over.

SPEAKER_03

Oh my gosh. And how long did you stay in Kuwait for?

SPEAKER_00

We were there for a couple of years, and it was a it was a a very formative experience for me in terms of my connection with this part of the world. And I think that's that's what drove me at the end to come back on some level. It was a there was a different thing that I was seeking, clearly, but I already felt that there was a a connection, yeah, a deep connection.

SPEAKER_03

Right, because if I recall, at some point you went back to the UK for boarding school, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, right, boarding school and university and all of those things.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. And how old were you when you came, when you were looking for your adventure to come back?

SPEAKER_00

So I was I was in my sort of latter half of my twenties at that point. And um I'd spent time in London. I I'd been working there. Actually, I was managing restaurants uh in those days for a large, large organization. Okay. Um, because I'd gone through hospitality. That was my sort of journey, right? That sense of service, which has never left me. I really feel that anyway. It was just the hospitality industry really spoke to me at that point. And then going into London, working, managing restaurants, and then getting to a point that I was thinking, really? You know, I'm I'm in London, I'm traveling two hours to and from the workspace, great. But I I started to think there's something else for me here. I'm really looking for an adventure of some sort. And I said, you know, I've got nothing to hold me back in terms of being in the UK. Let go let me go and spend a couple of years somewhere else. And you know, there were options, right? So do I go to the Americas, do I go to the Far East, do I go to the Middle East? And ultimately I had a friend that was here at that particular moment in time that was on a work experience, bizarrely, from university. And so he said, Yeah, come on out, have a look. So I came out with a friend and just went, Oh, I love it here. It was uh it was the wild west of the Middle East, if you want. Yeah. Yeah, it was a very different place to what it is now.

SPEAKER_03

And how old were you then?

SPEAKER_00

Late 20s.

SPEAKER_03

Late 20s. So late 20s, you came out here. By then, I've already heard you say, you know, and I do see you as a man of service, someone who's very much that that's one of your pillars that you drive toward. Was there this piece in you that was already doing some introspection and personal work? Were you kind of confronting pieces of yourself and going, ooh, there's there's something here?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that started really in my late teens, bizarrely. I mean, not because I was uh it was something that showed up in me directly, but my father was working for a financial institution at that moment, and they they were handing out these tapes um by a guy called Brian Tracy, who's amazing, still around. And the program was called The Psychology of Achievement. And it was about 10 cassette tapes in those days. And and my father said, Hey, you should really listen to this stuff. And I went, Yeah, yeah, whatever, Dad. Um, you know, I stuck it in a drawer and off I went to do my thing. For some reason, I ended up picking up those tapes, and honestly, they blew my mind. A whole new world opened up to me. This idea of setting goals and taking responsibility, and that that you know, the possibilities that were available to me, if I was prepared to look at how what the role I was playing in in this journey. And and that was the beginning for me. Then I was absolutely smitten with the idea that ah, if I if I work on myself, then actually anything is possible here. Um, and that's always stayed with me from that moment. And it's just been a constant, you know, journey in the sense that that sometimes I'm really into it and it's absolutely critical to me, and other times when I'm just kind of like I'm breathing deeply and stepping back from the edge.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And I do see, like, when you say edge, the first thing that comes to me is yeah, expansion through figuring out where our edge is and then pushing beyond. Um talk

From Adolescence to Authentic Manhood

SPEAKER_03

me through what you think the boys to men journey is, and like what are some of those edges that maybe even your sons have experienced that you've watched them experience and also from your own experience?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's very interesting because uh I think for me, of course, that formative journey I think probably happened at boarding school, right? So I went to boarding school from the age of about nine through to the age of of uh 13, 12, actually. Um and that was uh heart-wrenching and gut-wrenching from a point of view that I was kind of ripped out of the and and my parents obviously didn't mean anything by this, right? So it wasn't like they were trying to inflict this upon me, but I think it was this moment where I realized that uh I had to take care of self and the creature comforts that and the care uh of the family, as in like you know, being taken care of to that degree, suddenly didn't happen. And so there was a massive transition for me at that moment in time. I look back and I go, Whoa, that was tough. You know, I wouldn't I wouldn't want to put you know my kids through that process, but I also see how important that moment of transition, I guess I had to grow up pretty damn quickly.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I think there is a moment where as the masculine needs to appreciate, to some degree, has to be ripped out. It's probably not the right phrase, but but certainly has to has to be forced on some level out of the creature comforts of the home space. And and I know that's an important part of the transition that many of the cultures, certainly the more ancient cultures, used to use was okay, you're transitioning from adolescence to manhood. Um, that means that that you're going to have to show up differently in the world, and you can't necessarily always expect the system and maybe the the support systems that you've been used to to be behind you, right? So we're gonna pull you out of that that level of comfort and plonk you in a place that says, now show us what you can do. And and I have an interesting example of that that happened with with one of my sons. I have three sons and and one daughter, and the middle son was also at boarding school, actually through his own choice.

SPEAKER_03

Interesting. Isn't that funny how our kids reflect the other side of the stars?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yes. Yeah, and and he was going through some challenges, right? And and he was in the UK and we were here, and I went, I remember going over to the UK and saying, right, we're gonna spend a weekend together and we're gonna go out walking. And he must have been 17 at this point. And we went out walking, and and you know, we're having a great couple of days, and we're gonna stay at a particular place on en route. And and so we're reading the map, and I'm reading the map with him, and eventually I said, Okay, you need to get us home now, you need to get us to this next place. And at that point, there was the this deep mist that landed, and we had no idea where we were. And and he said, Okay, I need some help here. I said, No, no, you're on your own. I said, Either we get there or we don't get there, but you are leading this, you are now in charge, and and I and I will just follow you. And and it was an absolutely pivotal moment, I think. He was incredibly angry at me, having having so I guess to some degree thought, oh, but you know, where's my support structure here? And when I ripped that out from under him and said, You're on your own, in fact, you're now responsible for me and getting us there. And and it was a messy journey, trust me. We didn't, you know, we arrived late and and we were we were uh you know exhausted and so forth, but we arrived. And that evening, I remember sitting with him and him with a level of pride saying, I got us here.

SPEAKER_02

Wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. That that that shows up actually. Yeah, yeah, it was a it was a it was a powerful moment, I think. And I think that those are the moments that are very powerful in that transition from adolescence to manhood. Um, we don't like it, and we'll we'll rebel, and that's why to some degree we have to push you know uh adolescent men not into dangerous places but into places where suddenly they realize they have to call on their own abilities. This is the the masculine energy that now needs to engage more deeply because that's a very powerful energy going forward.

SPEAKER_03

I love that. I've got little goosebumps, and I love that because I was gonna ask you, you know, in this day and age where we're in creature comforts and we're in a world of abundance, even in times of war, where we're sitting here with missiles flying overhead and and we're fine, we're happy, everything is functioning, and and and then you illustrated it so perfectly of how you know the the masculine, the father can show up to really give that lesson without you know what we used to do in ancient days, which at 12 years old you would have to be sent out into the forest and dropped off somewhere, and they would say, Okay, hope you find your way.

SPEAKER_02

Good luck to them.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, come back in seven days, you know. And um, but it it now I have a greater understanding of your love also for vision quests. For

Vision Quests & the Power of Men’s Circles

SPEAKER_03

those people who don't know what vision quests are, and I also share your love of them because my masculine is very turned on by these things. Um what is a vision quest and why has it been such a potent part of your journey? I can already see the linkages to your childhood actually.

SPEAKER_00

I uh so a vision quest really is is I guess an opportunity to step away from everything you know, quiet and quiet in the the mind, remove yourself from distraction, and spend time away from from the world that you as you know it in order to give a sense of possibilities of something to show up in terms of potentially that deeper soul message, to listen so deeply, to give a space for that energy and that voice to have the potential to show up. Um and then to get curious with that, give yourself the space for that. And uh yeah, as you know, I I've run a number of vision quests over the years as a men's group. We set up a men's group now. Gosh, 17 years ago, I think, um came out of a very interesting uh experience that uh that had me understand that I needed a a masculine space to to try and understand some of the challenges I was facing. And it had to be a masculine space because there was a combination of anger, frustration, um, venting that brought me to that moment. But I needed men around me that could hold that, um, understand that, not necessarily say, yeah, that's you know, what you need to do is X, Y, and Z, because that's not what we do in the men's group. But to be able to um, I guess, have with their own experiences, for me to go, ah, okay, fine, there's a normalization of these experiences I'm going through. That doesn't make them uh right. It just means that I'm not alone here. And and now, because I'm not alone, we have an expanded conversation that we can all have about these things because it's not just me experiencing this, it's everybody else in a slightly, subtly different form, but it's a masculine experience, it's a masculine moment, if you like, of an edge, of something showing up that needs to be recognized and needs to be processed.

SPEAKER_03

And it's usually something that's quite emotional, right? Like something that's really taking up a lot of energy and space in you.

Why Men’s & Women’s Circles Serve Different Purposes

SPEAKER_03

I've I've been lucky enough to witness a few men's circles, and I find that even though a lot of the things that you're saying, like you know, others holding up a mirror to you to also to really share in your experience and again normalize it, that's very similar to what women's groups uh and women's circles are like. But I've also experienced that there's a very big energetic difference between a men's group and a women's circle. Could you speak into that a little bit? Like what do you feel that is? Because I know you've also you've been witnessed, you've I think you've been lucky enough to witness a few women's circles as well.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely, yeah. So uh um Vanessa, my wife, has has held uh women's circles for for many years and was one of the instigators of of the red tent in in the UAE. Um so yes, I've been privy, if you like, to the process of of women's groups. And I've what I've noticed in terms of the different different elements was that that that is a very I I what I imagine is the the the the women's circles are very much about holding the pain. Holding the pain, um sitting with it, supporting it as as it's unfolded. What's interesting for me about the masculine groups is it's not that we can't and don't hold the pain. To some degree, the the pain is the route into the challenge for us, um, the discomfort. And I what I find in the men's conversations is that we can leverage that with heart, of course, but the challenge that we are, you know, when we're held in the support in a space that says, you know, what is what is that about, you know, and and we push further into it, into the discomfort, into the pain, into the the hurt. Um and that's where I think the masculine energy differs. Yes, it's it's held with heart, both both places are. And and I think there's more of a um uh what's the phrase? Um the uh uh you know the the love that is held in the men's circles is is a sort of a a uh tough love. A tough love, thank you. Yeah, a tough love versus uh uh a heartful, caring love, which is in the feminine circles. Both very powerful in those spaces, but the tough love element, I think, is to some degree what we seek. Yeah. Because we're pushing into the unknown. That's part of the masculine, right? Is to drive forward, it's is to have vision, it's to have purpose, it is to work these things out. And we can't do that by necessarily only sitting and thinking. We have to move into spaces, and that energetic push that we get from that masculine around us can be very powerful.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's exactly this energy that when I've been in, you know, co ed groups with men and women, I think, oh, wow, how potent is that? Because even though I think I have quite a strong, you know, masculine energy, even I in the women's circles, it feels like that really does fall away a little bit. In normal life, I can have that energy, but there's something really, there's a different coherence of energy when women get together. And it's also so beautiful. It's so beautiful. Um, but I've always admired the energy that men bring when it is integrated with women as well in a circle, because there is that, it's almost a it's a forcing, like sometimes with women, we take longer, as you said, we hold uh a pain and then we let things slowly open and unravel. And then the transmissions of how to solve for it sort of come naturally. It's sort of ebbs and flows like water. And how I see men, men's work and like that masculine energy as you speak about, is like very penetrative and it's very in your face sometimes. And it's like, uh, excuse me, what what are you whining about? What is this? You are better than this, and that we are asking you to be better than what you are right now.

SPEAKER_00

To step up, to step up. We in fact, the the name of our of our men's group, which we've run for many, many years, awesome guys that I'm privileged to have been on that journey with, we call it the next level group. And it it is always about, okay, and it's not about always being on the journey to to to do more. It is about where can we continually uh tweak ourselves, move ourselves so that we can show up better in the world, show up better as businessmen, show up better as fathers, show up better as husbands, show up better as community members. All of the roles, and there's many other roles that we would play, of course, as there are in the feminine, that they're all places where the world needs and wants, and indeed we want, to show up in our highest form. And so that sense that we're always looking into what's more here. You know, yeah, it's not saying that you're doing it wrong, but there's always something else that we can do to bring more to the game. And as we bring more, it's not that we're achieving more on the other side, it's that something gets opened up. Opened up on that side, opened up on this side. So there's a consistent opening of the possibilities for everybody, and that's what I really love about that work.

SPEAKER_03

I love that. Um I have a

What Makes Men’s Work Deeply Meaningful

SPEAKER_03

lot of men in my life right now, and some of them have even spoken to you. Um, but over the years, there's been this what I see as an explosion of interest in men creating men's groups and creating these support groups. There's a lot that goes into it. It's not just a bunch of guys that come together and, you know, drink coffee, you know, that's the old, maybe the old way that we everyone's done it, but to be really conscious about getting to the next level in some way as a collective. If you were to think about what are the ingredients that are necessary to create that container, to, you know, if there is a couple of people listening out there from wherever they are in the world that wants to start this, what what advice do you have? What are some of the tenets that need to be in place?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think there's there's got to be a deeper desire to bring something more to the world through yourself, and then to find others that can align with that. Um, this is a process that you have to lean into. And it's not just one person, it's the collective of people that need to lean in. Not because it's good for others, but because it's good for them initially, and they see the value in that process, right? So you're in service of yourself, you're in service of that masculinity. And and it's it's a win-win, really, at the end of the day. You we all have to pay in, and and the dividends are are are massive, and and and sometimes not even you don't even know what the dividends are. Um but but it is finding that passion, that sometimes it comes from that discomfort, right? That pain. And as I mentioned, what what you know, I'd been talking about it with a friend for a little bit about yeah, we should start a men's group. It sounds like a good idea, you know, we're men in the world and so forth. And it wasn't until I faced uh uh just a a really testing moment in my life where I suddenly went, oh my god, I need a place to bring this because this is something's gonna drive me nuts unless I can bring this. And it was it was an energy that I had to bring, not just a problem.

SPEAKER_03

And can you speak more into that? I it feels very alive. Like, what do you is that something you're willing to uh share?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I can share it with you, and it's almost you can look back and say it was just you know, it was a strange thing, right? But so you know, we were living uh uh in Dubai and and the two boys, the older boys were were with us, and and I was away on a uh on a on a course that weekend, and um Ness had said to me, Hey, you know, um, and we'd agreed we were talking about having pets for the boys, right? And I'd said, Look, you know, I think a hamster is a great place to start. Hamster, that's that's kind of me maxing out on the whole animal thing. I'm nothing against animals. It was just like, you know, I realized that the boys are only gonna, you know, look after it for a matter of minutes, then it's basically our job.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Um, again, nothing against the boys, but that was just that's what we're dealing with. And I said, a hamster, I think we can deal with that. So they said, Oh, off they went to, and I'm at this course, off they went to the uh pet shop. And the next thing I know is that I've got a message on my phone towards the end of the workshop, and the message says, Hey, we've just been to the pet shop, and there's this amazing dog, and he's so cute, and we love him, and he's amazing. Um, but you know, and we've been allowed to bring him home for the evening. So, anyway, so I'm picking that message up. I come home, and so here I am, two boys running around with this dog in the house. You know, you can imagine the joy, right? And then the moment was, hey, but you know, we don't have to keep him, and you know, we can send it back if you want. And I really at that moment went, you know what, I've just been stuck in a corner here. You know, there wasn't, and again, it's a process, right? There was a moment where I just went, I you know, that that is so unfair. You don't make me the bad guy. And and I realized I didn't have a choice at that moment, and that made me upset, I guess, more than upset, made me angry. But I couldn't bring that anger because there was so much joy. And you know, and I guess I communicated my boundaries, and not and and those have been crossed, but not with any bad intention, right? There was an intention to bring joy, and so it was a very difficult process to go through. Um, and we did end up getting the dog because we, you know, and the dog became part of the family, but but I think there was always that, you know, and with the dog in the house, it always meant that that was something I had to deal with.

SPEAKER_03

And and that's you know, it's fascinating because as you look back on it, you know, some people might just be, oh, well, it's a dog and it's this. It's it's really not about that, was it? It's about you setting very clearly what your boundaries were. You feeling that your boundaries were crossed, um, which of course should invite anger. Um, then feeling like you have to repress that reality because of the context of so much joy in the system. And of course, ultimately, I think, and especially for men, this happens for women too, but I find it's more for for men where there's this real question of freedom. And I know that freedom is a big driver for you. It's also huge for me. But the freedom of choice, and not just choice, but if I said something, I meant it. And for that to be disregarded is almost like, what am I, chop liver? Um, so I can I I can feel that. Yeah. And so you brought that into the men's group and you could just rage about it somewhere.

SPEAKER_00

I raged, I raged, I vented and you know, and and processed it. And and I was able to do that outside of the family unit so that that whatever I had to deal with, and it was my stuff at the end of the day, right? Um, could be dealt with in a place with other people that could hold that and and and not go, yeah, you're absolutely right. It wasn't about right or wrong, it was what is showing up here. What is it that I have to process in order to be able to come out and go and be with my family and be in that space where I don't hold anger and upset and and and so forth. Um, you know. Which was even funnier was the dog ended up loving me the most.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um always. You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

The spiritual lesson. Um and I'm

17 Years in the Same Men’s Circle

SPEAKER_03

curious, um this men's group as well, something that I find very interesting about your group is one that it's closed right now, particularly because it's been together for 17 years and most of the members of the group have been the same for 17 years, which is fascinating to me. Did you guys have, did you have to like in the first few years work through different groups and different people before you kind of came to that core group and said, Oh, these people, you know, whether you guys explicitly stated a contract or not, agree to the same contract that we're holding each other accountable, that we show up, that we, you know, push each other to whatever this next level is and hold space. What what how did that all transpire?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think we just sort of put it out to a bigger group of men that we thought would be interesting. Um, we all got together and and we sort of talked about what this could be and how it would work. Um and there was a you know quorum, I think, in in those days, about eight of us, and we've sort of maintained eights throughout. There have been men that have left because of whatever reasons, and then we've invited somebody else in to keep that that quorum of of eights. Um but yeah, there was it, I think it was just a uh it was it's been so powerful along the way. We meet monthly. And uh yes, we've missed a few months along the way, but not that many in considering it's 17 years, right? And that in itself is is a powerful indicator that when we show up, we always walk away with deep personal value and feel like we've been in service of each other as well. And I think we are all, no, I don't think, I know that we are all better for it. We've shown up better in the places that we care to show up more fully and with a better self-awareness and a better situational awareness and a better understanding of the masculine energy, um, both light and dark, right? Because it's not, it's not as simple as just saying, Oh, I'm gonna show up. There are different facets of you that sometimes you need to call on, that either you're afraid to call on, you don't know to call on. And and so in the conversations, we get to really expand that sense of what is the masculine here. And having, you know, smart and and and experienced, and it don't have to be experienced, but the sense is that because we've been doing this for 17 years now, we've all you know, there's a good range of ages in the group as well, which is also great. But that sense that that there are there are different perspectives that can be offered, not as advice, but as questions, right? Um, and when those questions get thrown into the pot, they really have to think more deeply about okay, what am I, how am I showing up? What am I what am I intending in my process? What am I afraid of? What have I got to let go of? What have I got to lean into? And a range of those and many more questions, of course, but but it's expansive. I think it's expansive as an individual that wants to be present and grounded and uh dare I say productive and intentional and purpose-filled, uh, and really wants that from deep down, but doesn't always show up that way. Sometimes it's messy, right? We don't always get it right. And when we can show up and in a group and say, I really think that I didn't show up properly. I really feel that there was part of me that wasn't present and I don't understand why. And then for others in that situation to offer a perspective and and uh uh an insight, sometimes a personal insight, sometimes a deep question, powerful question. It's it's uh it's expansive, it's deeply expansive. But we get to see more of ourselves in those places because we can see that in in others. Many a time we'll show up to a men's session, and you know, we've not talked about it before, but somebody brings a topic and then somebody goes, Oh my goodness, that resonates so fully with me right now. And and and then they have their experience, not of that topic, but their experience. But there is a there's a crossover and there's a theme that seems to develop, and so we get to expand themes on a larger scale, not just our own experiences.

SPEAKER_03

Wow, I can feel the energy of that, and I love that. Um, do you always follow a similar format in that just somebody, whoever feels most alive, brings something to the table? And and there's just a fierce commitment from everyone that it's not just like a yeah, everything's fine.

SPEAKER_00

We create space for each of us to bring whatever's happening. And it doesn't have to be something that's gone wrong, something's gone bad. Um, it can be anything, anything that's alive for us in that moment. And what I tend to find is that I don't come saying, Oh, I'm gonna talk about this. I come and I and I sit in that space with these men, and we we run it virtually more often than not, um, and just see what's showing up in me. And sometimes you listen to others and you go, Oh, right, there is there is something that I've I you know I think I need to bring here, which is something that's going on for me, and that then unfolds. So we create a space of we really give each other a good 10 minutes just to just to talk and not be interrupted. I think it's really important because I think we all need to sort of find out what is it that I'm talking about. Sometimes it's it's not very clear to start with. So you find, I'm going over here, I'm going over there. What where am I going with this? And then I end up going somewhere with that. And then ah, that's what I needed to get to. That's the thing that's really important. And then that gets the that becomes the piece that I want to unfold. And that's when, you know, we open that up to, you know, to curiosity in the group, literally, you know, deeply curious group.

SPEAKER_03

I love that. It resonates so deeply with me as well, because yeah, often, you know, I don't just sit here and go, oh, this is what's alive in me. Sometimes I have no idea. And sometimes more often than not, I find it takes me, I feel longer, you know, to sit still, listen to other people. But sometimes listening to other people drags me from my own stuff into their stuff. Um, and so it does take time to unravel and de-armor yourself to really get to the the golden things, the deep things that we don't allow ourselves to touch on a daily basis.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And no topic is off uh uh off grid. Uh everything is possible, and we've covered all the possible topics you can imagine. And and and I think it is that that permission to bring anything, anything is really important. Because where can we go as men that is a supportive place that can bring a combination of tough love and and deep support and also um you know shared experiences of some of the things that that we can't talk about in with our partners or with other friends because they might be embarrassing, they might be edgy, they might be shameful on some levels, right? You know, we're bringing something sometimes like you know, I'm I I know I need to bring this, I need to talk about this. It doesn't make me proud to say this, but I need to say it. And and when I can say it and be held in that space and and not be vilified in any shape, way or form, then then I've then I've got a place that I I can bring that, process it, and and step up into uh uh into a higher form of showing up.

SPEAKER_03

And I I

Modern Manhood: What It Really Takes to Step Up

SPEAKER_03

can only imagine how deeply enriching this has been for you, and also to see different forms of the masculine in yourself, but also in the other men around you. And I guess some of my curiosities are really around, yeah, how your view of masculinity, I mean, this is such a thrown around word these days, like toxic masculinity, this, that, whatever. We were talking about the manosphere the other day on Netflix. And we are in a very interesting time, particularly it sounds like, I mean, for all of us, but particularly for young men. And I really want your perspective, Nick, of what does it mean to be a man today? What are those challenges? What are the things you keep hearing about that keep coming up in your enlightened men's circles? Um and what does it mean to to really step up into that role of the masculine?

SPEAKER_00

I think it's a really difficult journey for for young men these days. Um you know, there's a there's a million resources that you can access, but but it's a really confusing place to see. And I and I see it, I I see it in my sons in the sense that that how tough the journey is, right? So, you know, I've my sons are uh uh uh 31, 26, 27, um, 18, and then I've got a daughter of of 15. And so I've got these multi-generational elements of the masculine all around me, and I I see those moments, um and I see how tough it is, right?

SPEAKER_03

And can you speak more into like I mean, I can kind of feel into that it's tough, but what what is that boy man experience that's so tough right now?

SPEAKER_00

You know, because I guess I come as as a 59-year-old, a lot of the challenges that it that people experience today, I've moved through. I never had those, and I have them in my adult life. And so I've got, if you like, I feel like I've got a foundation on which to manage and handle myself through those moments. But I feel that the masculine is being thrown into extremes very quickly from a very early age, even if we just talk about social media, right? The information that's being thrown up, the extremes of that information that's being thrown up, everything from extreme exercise to extreme diets to extreme pornography. And this is mixed in in a way that I wouldn't even begin to comprehend as a young man showing up. And all of that that you're trying to find your feet as in who am I? Being pulled left, right, and center, being told what it is to be a man over here, over there, over here, and and not to some degree it feels, not having the space to experience your own growing up journey without some of these this craziness all around you. So you're have you're being called to grow up faster and faster and faster. And and I was and I can't remember who I who I heard it from the other day, but that idea, and it was it was through a podcast or something, and someone's saying, you know what, adolescence doesn't really, you don't move from adolescence until you enter your 30s. If you think about it from that context, right, and you imagine that from the age of your early teens, you're being bombarded with something that tells you how to be a man, you're not given the space to create your own version of that. And to some degree, the other sad part, and you know, having looked at the Manosphere and um with uh Louis uh Thoreau, and and how some of those, and and there's many things included in that, but one of the sad parts of that was a number of those men had had not grown up with strong masculine figures in their lives. You know, their fathers had not been present, their fathers maybe had been dysfunctional in their uh in their approach to life and and how they'd shown up. So they'd had to create their own version of how to survive, how does this work? Um and you know sadly, it wasn't the right way of the information that showed up has skewed what it is to be a man, I believe. And you know, we can point the finger at at a range of things, but I think it is important that that as uh older men that we show up as best we can in those adolescent years just to be present in that space, to show another image, another perspective. It's not that we know better, it's not that we know more. It's just there's a grounding element, I think, that comes in that older masculine energy that is trying to offer um perhaps a more grounded journey through the chaos. You know, you will make you know, as a male, you're gonna have to make your own decisions from a very early on. But if you don't have other perspectives in the system, then your opportunities to really work out what is your best option are diminished, right? You're having to rely on these extremes and the crazy, you don't have that sense of, oh, let me engage with somebody that's been on this journey in their own right. Doesn't mean I have to do it that same way, but at least I can have, you know, that that mature insight into that masculine journey. And I think that's something I think you know, it's important that as older men, if you like, that we find ways to do that. And I and I think that's something that I must confess, it's not something I get an opportunity to do outside of of my my kids.

Finding Your Authentic Calling in a Noisy World

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head when you know it's it's about we live in a really noisy world now where the whole world is telling us who we are, who we should be. And it's not just for men, for women as well. And I think, God, yeah, if I were an adolescent now and I was on all of the social media, I would kind of have a lot harder time hearing or feeling actually this is who I am, you know, because even as a kid, when we didn't have social media, I remember being confused just by going to class, right? And going to school or being in your community and seeing all of the different versions of people you could be and going, am I like that? Or am I like her? Or, you know, is it okay that I like this this thing that nobody else seems to like? And and that takes time to really cement and and I think for men and for women to really go, oh, that's just who I am, versus that's something I've been fed that I should be by either my parents or society or social media.

SPEAKER_00

And I think, you know, as you as you go through that journey, of course, you make decisions, we all do, around what should I be doing? What does my culture, my surroundings say is what is success in that route. And so we all start off in that route. And this is one of the really interesting transitions I recall in my own life is that that uh you know, I was I was in careers all the way from you know leaving university and talked about hospitality, then I got into sales, and and sales was was like a great learning place for me because I was being tested, you know, as you're only good as your last set of results, right? So, and you want to do well and and you're driving forward and you have to do your work. How can I make this sales process work? How can I really add value in this place? It's not just going out and making the sale, it's also about how can I leave whatever environment I've been in in a better place, right? I'm selling value into a place that needs that value. How do I do that? How do I need to show up? And and going through that process and finding that while I loved it, it just I got to a moment, actually, it was in my mid-30s, where I realized that it was relatively empty, you know, and uh that emptiness was not going to be sustainable beyond that initial experience. Great formative experiences, but suddenly I was being called into something bigger or offered, it wasn't even, I couldn't even make it that clear, right? At that moment, it was something's not right. Can I do this for the rest of my life? And the answer was no way. This is not what I want to do for the rest of my life. Doesn't mean that I can't take some of these pieces forward with me, but there's something else that I think I need to do. And that was a pivotal moment, right? And I think we all go through that. That's that's that huge transition from that experiential journey that that we all have in terms of forming that foundation of human self into that moment in in midlife, you know, those that between 30 and 40, really, that mid-30s to late late 30s is where you start being called to something else. And you know, do we listen to that or do we not listen to that is the question. And it's important that we hold our uh our adolescence, both the masculine and the feminine, right, in those moments where they're being called. Because we need people to follow that calling. Because when they follow that calling, I think we have opportunities as a as a world to you know to show up differently, show up better, and and and I think that's a benefit for all of us. Nobody wants to be stuck on what is now becoming a much longer life journey. You know, you and I were just talking about this longevity thing, right? Yeah, you know, this idea that that you know people are now living naturally to 85. Um and and now we're looking at 90, 95, 100, and so forth. That's a big journey.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And the idea that we just be doing that to earn a crust to get by doesn't work anymore, right? And so it's that moment, I think that mid-30s moment where it's really critical that we we give space and opportunity for people to really question, okay, what is going on? And maybe that's one of the areas vision quests show up as an idea. Um, but many other things as well.

SPEAKER_03

Did you do a vision quest in your mid-30s when you this like soul calling was coming up for you?

SPEAKER_00

I was doing them not at that moment. I did them a little bit later than that, but I had some deep soul searching at that moment. Um, I was in a successful career, by all intents and purposes, I had a future laid out for me, but it just wasn't calling me. And I, you know, as I you as you mentioned earlier, I run a coaching company, and um I was being called, this is 24 years ago now, and in those days, coaching was not in the region at all. And um, it was barely in Europe and the US. It was just a new concept. Um, I was being called into that place, and that came from that earlier journey which I spoke to you about in terms of that psychology of achievement and all the stuff I'd read and looked into, and people were talking about this thing called coaching, and it it and I had a resonance with that. Didn't really know what it was, but I had this idea that you know, I'll do that when I'm old and gray. Um, of course, I'm both now, but but at that point there was something in it for me, and then I just parked it, right? Because I'm busy, I'm getting on with my life, things are good, you know, I need money in the system, I'm married, I've got kids. Um, you gotta keep the the hamster wheel is moving. Um, but there was something showing up in me that said, I gotta rethink this. And I had deep support from from my wife as well that that helped me that moment because of course that had to be, you couldn't just say, look, I'm leaving business, I'm going off to do this crazy thing that nobody's ever heard of. Um, and I think we're gonna be okay. I mean, that's not gonna wash easily, right?

SPEAKER_03

So did you actually at that time start taking like I don't know, night or weekend courses to become a coach? Is that the journey?

SPEAKER_00

What I did was there was nothing in the Middle East at that point. I I thought I need, do you know what? There was a there was an intent first, right? Um, I didn't know how I was gonna do this. I just knew that the route I was going on was not the route I needed to go on. I needed to go on a different route. I needed to bring something deeply alive. I didn't know what it was. In fact, I had two things on offer, right? And one was, you know, I restaurants, I love restaurants, I'll open a restaurant. And it seems weird to think about that now, but you know, and and restaurants are still, I love you know, food and and that's a a passion. So there was that sense. And then there was this thing called coaching, and you know, it was like, don't know much about that. But I think, you know, I sat down and I sat with it, and and there was a sense of, no, I think I'm being called deeply not to go and do something like running a restaurant and so forth. There's there's a bigger sense of bringing uh an unfolding, you know, and that was my own unfolding as well. Coaching unfolded me. Um and then the idea that that could bring this process to others was enthralling. And it really hit deeply in terms of like a soul calling, if you want.

SPEAKER_03

How is Nick today at 59 different from Nick at 39?

SPEAKER_00

I that's a really difficult question. I you know, it's much easier for somebody else to look in from the outside, right? Because I've been here all the time and the changes have been subtle. But I guess have they been subtle? I think there's a there's a deeper sense of purpose that keeps unfolding, and and I still don't know what that exactly looks like. But I keep asking that question. Okay, what's what's trying to show up through me? What am I being called to? What's exciting? What resonates? And I may have been asking those subtle questions all that time ago, but it was very confusing with with the level of insecurity and and and you know, I've got to I've got to be this to that person, I've got to be that to another person. I think there's a sense of now I know that I've got to be true to myself before I can be true to others. And there's a deep knowing in that, and and I don't have to feel embarrassed by that, I don't have to feel worried by that. I think it's taken me a long time to get to that place, you know, worried what other people might think or or how they might react. Um it has always been in my system. I think it is in most people's system. But you get to a point where you have to say, you know, the only way I can show up is if I allow myself to show up, and and I and I need I need to support that.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. You have to give yourself permission first. Um and I see that in parallel. It's the same as the women's journey and the men's journey. I see perhaps, I don't know, for for men, but maybe it takes a little bit longer to have that confidence to really stand in your truth and own it. Like I really see that as part of even we've talked about the dark masculine and the light masculine and the dark being like the masculine side that is unapologetically honoring himself and others by they're they're unapologetically honoring truth, whatever that form is. And they're so direct because there's with love, but they're so direct, they're so clear about what it is, what their boundaries are, what their parameters are, who they are, and who they're not. And I find in the women's journey, it's the same, but for many years, especially for women who have children, it can get convoluted. Um, where that question of who am I really can get pushed aside for a little bit longer. Um while for men, you know, they have a midlife crisis for a reason. There is the stage, I think, where this question gets asked. Not that women don't either. I think that we're having them more and more at a younger age now. But yeah, there are different um life milestones to navigate in that process.

SPEAKER_00

I think it's it's sitting as you get, as I got older, I have to speak from my own experience, is that I'm able to access more of my heart information. Um you know, as a male going through this journey, I think you're called into using your head, your your IQ, and now I'm being called more into my EQ and moving between the two with better flow. I think that's a really important part of the developing journey of all of us, but certainly in the masculine. If we stay on our heads too much, it it we don't bring enough heart to the decisions, to our outlook, and and I think we we end up not uh showing up in the way that the world needs so we need both. Um and of course, the spiritual intelligence and all those other ones need to be in the game as well. I'm not throwing those away, but certainly that emotional intelligence needs to be expanded. Everything in terms of our conversations, our engagement, how we speak to ourselves, how we speak to others, all of those things are part of the journey, right? You know, the relationship is the conversation, and and we're in constant relationship wherever we go with people, with the world, with and so it's it's a conversation that we have to be having, either inside our our own heads, right, um, or with others. And we've got to be better at having those conversations in order to be more impactful and more aware of what's possible and also how we can be part of that.

Nic’s Advice for Men Seeking a Purposeful Life

SPEAKER_03

Nick, I can talk to you for hours, and luckily I do get to. But as our time comes to a close, I want to ask two quick questions. One is if you were talking to a younger version of yourself, um, or to the many, many men out there that are kind of going, oh, there's something more there. I don't know. I don't know. What what advice do you have for men to really honor and discover the truth of who they are and do the work, do the life purpose work that they're meant to do here?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I know it's not a quick question, but well, I'll I'll try and answer it as best I can, but I think the the first part is that that you're needed. And you as an individual, you as a male, as a man, are critical to this world. And if you can understand how important you are to the world, then you have the opportunity and how supportive the world wants to be around that. Find the right people around you to support that unfolding, and then to go on the journey because it's not going to be an instant journey, it's a long journey, and we've got a lot more time than we've ever had in the past. So it's absolutely critical that you take the time to go on that journey, ask the deeper questions, acknowledge responsibility for both the good and the bad of what you've done and what you bring. You know, it's not because it's wrong, it's just when you acknowledge it, when you can sit with it and say, you know what? Okay, I didn't show up in my best form. And you can turn that around and find better ways, then then everything's gonna be okay. Everything's gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_03

I love

What Women Can Better Understand About Men

SPEAKER_03

that. And one sentence, Nick, to really close it off. What do you hope women can understand and take away about men? What do you want the collective feminine to know?

SPEAKER_00

I think we we need women, we need the feminine. We're nothing without that. I think that yin yang is an absolutely critical part of the process. And I think to some degree we need we need to be loved but also called forth. And and the feminine can be very powerful. So when you bring that skill, not from anger, but from uh from heart, and it can be tough, right? Because you know, Kali is there to to chop off the heads of the masculine that's not showing up, right? And and sometimes our heads need to be chopped off, not because we're bad, but because we didn't step into the fullness of what's possible as the masculine. And so there is a dance that we need to be on, and and we need to work together in this. So yeah, I think it's it's bringing that deep love for the masculine, but also not letting it get away with not showing up and learning the skills on how to metaphorically cut off the head of the masculine when it doesn't show up, so that it can step up and and find its fullness.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, beautiful. And and just a reminder that Kali is the dis the goddess of destruction. She comes into your life to destroy and take away everything so that you can see the truth of the matter, but she does it with love. And it's an odd combination of chopping off heads with love. Like I must chop off your head because I love you and I must let you to see what you are doing and what your impacts are here. And uh that's a that's a tough skill for all of us to learn. All of us, yeah.

Closing

SPEAKER_03

Nick, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you, Eric. Really love this conversation. Indeed. Awesome. Thank you so much. Hey there. If you like this episode and you're getting some beautiful transmissions or are feeling inspired to support this podcast in any way, the best way to do that is to give us a rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, on YouTube, or wherever it is that you're plugging into the Enlightened DXP podcast. You can also follow us on Instagram at Enlighten DXB. If you want to reach out to any of the guests we have on the show, you can check out their profiles and their work at www.enlightendxb.com. And for those of you in Dubai looking for community, retreats, or additional resources, you can also sign up to our emailing list there. Thanks for joining us, and we'll see you on the next episode. Until then, I wish you more joy, more ease, and a little sprinkle of grace.