When Scripture Collides with Power: Thomas Abell's Story of Integrity with Theresa Haynes

In this episode of Just Talking About Jesus, author Teresa Abell Haynes shares her lifelong walk with the Lord—from childhood prayers on the school bus to the deep faith that carried her through life’s hardest seasons. Theresa reveals the fascinating research journey behind her novel The Queen’s Priest, a powerful story of integrity and courage inspired by the real-life martyr Thomas Abell, a man who stood for truth against King Henry VIII.

We explore the cost of obedience, what it means to stand for righteousness in the face of pressure, the role of Scripture in shaping conviction, and the importance of spiritual perseverance today. Whether you’re a history lover, a person of faith, or simply someone seeking encouragement, this conversation will strengthen your spirit.

The Queen’s Priest

Music from #Uppbeat

https://uppbeat.io/t/sky-toes/the-summit

License code: YEMOID7DEYZIE4N3

Consider subscribing to this podcast, YouTube and Substack- all with the same name: Just Talkin' About Jesus!

https://www.youtube.com/@JustTalkinAboutJesus

https://jan-johnson.com/

https://justtalkingaboutjesus.com/

https://janjohnsonauthor.substack.com/

https://www.youtube.com/@JustTalkinAboutJesus

Thanks for listening!

If you have a story to tell, check out the form on my website- justtalkingaboutjesus.com.

I'd love to connect with you!

No, really.... hit me up!

Transcript

Jan: Welcome, everyone. If you are new here, I'd love to welcome you. I'm Jan Johnson, your host, and I'm glad that you are joining us.

Theresa: And I hope that by the end.

Jan: Of this show, you feel encouraged and strengthened.

Have you ever faced a moment where doing what right came with a cost?

What does it look like to walk faithfully with Jesus your whole life?

Today,

author Teresa Bell Haynes joins us to share her testimony, her love for the Lord, and the incredible story of a man who chose truth over comfort,

even when that cost was his life.

This is a conversation about integrity, conviction, and God's unfailing faithfulness.

Teresa Abel Haynes is a journalist and historical novelist dedicated to bringing hope through inspiring stories.

She is the author of the Queen's the Story of Blessed Thomas Habel.

Teresa holds a master's degree in the Religious Roots of Europe from Lund University in Sweden and a bachelor's degree in journalism.

She spent nearly two decades homeschooling her children and now contributes to Christian news publications.

Blending her love of history with the art of storytelling.

She lives in the Pacific Northwest with her husband, Kip, of 30 years.

She enjoys reading good books, hiking, raising chickens, and when it's raining too much, exploring new places.

Theresa: Let's welcome her. Welcome, Teresa.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Theresa: I met Teresa at a writing conference. First of all, online, back and forth, and then in person with Northwest Christian writers.

Tell us a little bit about your testimony. Where,

where did you been like a Christian all your life? You just like, or there was a defining moment or yeah.

Speaker A: So my name is Teresa Abel Haynes. Abel is my maiden name.

And I, I grew up in a Christian family, a wonderful Christian family. My mom and dad both had a really strong relationship with the Lord and they modeled that for us.

And I always had a sense of a desire to know the Lord and to be with Him. So even as a kid, I remember praying and just talking to Jesus and, and just imagining him right there.

I remember going to school on the school bus, being a little bit lonely and just thinking, Jesus is sitting next to me.

So I, I, I grew up with, like, I think a real special relationship with the Lord.

I think I was probably about 4 or 5 when I asked Jesus into my heart. And I was about seven when I was baptized.

And I didn't really have a time of walking away from the Lord. Specifically, I went on a mission trip when I was in high school with a group called Teen Mania.

We went to South America, and it was during that time that I really had the experience of spending time with the Lord. Every morning. So we would get up every morning, and all the kids would go with their Bible and their journal and spend maybe a half an hour with the Lord.

And then we'd get together and pray.

And I think that that period of time was really formational for me in terms of understanding that practice of walking with the Lord.

So that was really great.

And then my husband and I met when we were actually teenagers, and we got married when I was 18 and he was 20.

And so I think that we've always been partners for each other, spiritually, just encouraging. And,

you know, there's definitely been seasons that were more difficult.

And I think, especially in my late 30s, I went through a season where I just really needed. I really understood my need for the Lord in a new way.

And I think that really brought me into a greater intimacy with the Lord and realizing that was what I wanted more than anything.

Theresa: Yeah, yeah. Not everybody has, like, this dramatic thing, is this is like I was down in the pits and now I'm here. Which are amazing testimonies, but it doesn't minimize your experience.

You know, I mean, everybody is drawn to God in their own special way and whatever.

Speaker A: And.

Theresa: And it doesn't mean that you've never had any little bumps in the road.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah, for sure. For sure.

Theresa: You're right. Because it's the bumps that kind of bring you to a closer. Closerness. Closerness. That's not a word. Closeness.

Speaker A: Yes. A greater intimacy.

Theresa: Right.

Speaker A: And humility.

Theresa: Yeah. And it just brings you into. When you understand him more, you see where he is drawing you closer and realizing where he's more faithful and that those promises that he has really are for you as an individual.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah. I think especially as my kids were entering their teenage years, just really remembering how to pray, just remembering,

oh, I need to be fighting like we're in a battle, because we are not with my kids, but with the spiritual forces around us. And I think,

you know, that was probably a time when I really started growing in that area of my life especially.

Yeah.

Theresa: Yeah. So you wrote a book.

Speaker A: Yes, I did.

Theresa: You wanted to delve into some of your. Your name, your namesake. And how did that happen? How did that come about?

Speaker A: Yes. Well, my family were the Abels,

and I knew that we had an ancestor who had carved his name in family emblem, which was like a bell symbol with an A in the middle in the Tower of London.

And, in fact, when I was a kid, in our apartment, we had a picture of this up on the wall.

So I kind of grew up with this image, but I didn't really know very much about it.

And so as I got older, I started researching, and about that time, things were starting to come online, like Wikipedia came online and things like that. And so research became a little bit easier and more.

I learned about Thomas Abel. I realized that his story was just a journey of faith. And so I wanted to look more into it.

And a couple years. I guess more than a couple years ago,

about three years ago, I started really doing some research. I decided I wanted to write the story,

and I was really motivated about trying to understand who Thomas Abel was and why he did what he did.

And that was kind of the beginning of. Of that journey.

Theresa: So as you were doing it, I mean, you had to decide,

like, what avenue you wanted to go to. Like, as I've read the book, it's really.

It's really a story of integrity.

Speaker A: It is. It really is. And I think the more that I looked into it, the more relevant it felt for today.

And I thought. Thought, you know, there are people all over the world who are in a situation where they're having to choose between standing up for their faith and living a comfortable life.

And that was. That was actually what he was facing as well. And so as I began to write the story, I. I felt like the Lord was putting it on my heart to write it,

because I think this generation needs more heroes like that to look up to, more people to say, hey, this is somebody who is faithful.

Theresa: Right. And so this was at the time.

Speaker A: With Henry viii, King. Yes.

Theresa: And who also had one wife after another.

Speaker A: Yeah. So the history on this is King Henry VIII was the king of England,

and he did not have.

He did not have an heir. And he was concerned that if he died without an heir, that who knows who would be the next king and there could be a civil war.

And that was actually a realistic fear because his own father had come to power after a long period of civil war. And so he wanted to avoid that, but he also was motivated by wanting to be married to his mistress.

And so there was that.

And so he set out to divorce his wife, Catherine of Aragon, whom he had been married to for almost 20 years.

And the way he went about doing it was trying to use scripture to prove that his marriage to her should never have been.

And that's where Thomas Abel really came in, because Thomas was asked to basically defend.

Well, he was asked to approve of what the king was wanting to say, and he stood against that. But perhaps I've kind of walked into the story backwards I haven't really mentioned who Thomas Abel was at all.

Theresa: Yeah, yeah. Because at one point he became the Queen's priest. Right. Queen Catherine's priest.

Speaker A: Yeah. So the name of the book is the Queen's Priest, and it is. It is the story of his life and that part of his life. But he started out as a tutor in Oxford, and we think that he came into the royal household as the Queen's priest because the King wanted to replace the Queen's staff with English priests that he could maybe lean on to influence the King and influence the Queen and have her agree to do

what the King wanted her to do, which was repudiate their marriage and go to a nunnery and,

you know, get out of the way, basically.

Theresa: Right, right. Which she didn't feel like she needed to have to do.

Speaker A: No. She felt like since the time she was a child, she'd been told that she was intended to be the Queen of England. She was betrothed originally to King Henry VIII's older brother.

And they were married when Queen, Queen Catherine and Arthur were like 14, 15 years old and mere kids.

Yes, they were kids. And it. And that was not uncommon in that time period.

But it. The marriage itself didn't last very long. He was mysteriously ill and died within a few months of their marriage.

And she claimed that they had never even consummated the marriage.

And so the plans were made for her to marry Arthur's younger brother, which was Henry viii. But this sort of was in limbo for about eight years.

I don't even know if this. I went into the. Into this part of the history in the book, but this is the history.

And so she waited. And then when King Henry, when King Henry VIII became king, the first thing he did was say, I want to marry Catherine. And it seems that they really were in love with each other,

you know, from different historical records.

And they were, like I said, they were married for almost 20 years, which.

Theresa: Is a long period of time for it is, considering who he was.

Speaker A: Yeah. And she had had six children, actually, and only one of them had survived, which is her daughter Mary. So.

Theresa: And so then at that point, well, it was her priest prior to that. Right.

Speaker A: Cardinal Woolsey. Right,

right, right, right, yes. So he was kind of. He was sort of the head honcho and he was called sort of like second only to the King because he basically controlled the powers of the state and the Church.

He was officially a cardinal in the. In the Roman Catholic Church because they.

Theresa: Were pretty pull, you know, politically involved.

Speaker A: The Church was that's right. Yeah. So I like to think of it as the EU is today. You know, the EU is kind of like we have separate states in. In Europe, but the EU kind of has a little bit of power over things to kind of make sure that they don't go to war with each other.

The Roman Catholic Church had sort of a similar role, I think, in what was then called Christendom, which we today call Europe.

Theresa: Right, right. And remind us what year that was.

Speaker A: So we're talking the late 1520s. So this is also not that long after Martin Luther.

And so there was probably a bit of anxiety about all that happening in Europe as well, so that many of the countries around Germany were leaving the Catholic Church at this time.

And this is where King Henry saw his opportunity to set himself up, up as the head of the Church in England so he could make his own rules.

Theresa: And so prior to that, was King Henry, was he Catholic to begin with?

Speaker A: Yes, he was Catholic, and he was.

He was actually called at one point the Defender of the Faith,

because he was. He seemed to have been very devout in his religion, you know, and he seemed very sincere, actually. He wrote hymns.

But at some point, he began to make decisions, and it seems that his heart slowly turned away from the Lord as well as from the Church in general.

And one of the things I kind of wanted to do with the story was show two opposite trajectories. You have Thomas Abel deciding, I will follow the Lord no matter what it costs me.

At the same time, King Henry VIII is saying,

I will do what I want to do no matter what it costs me.

Theresa: Right, right. You know, self serving self.

Speaker A: Yeah, at that point.

Theresa: So what. What was the. What was the crucial scripture area that was defining there that. That Henry wanted to do?

Speaker A: Sure, yeah. So when I started looking into Thomas's life, I think that the question I wondered was, why did he do what he did? Like, what was it that motivated him?

And so I was given the opportunity to go to London and I went to the Tower of London and I saw where Thomas had carved his name and family emblem into the Tower of London, which was really an amazing experience to be in that room and think about what he went through.

He was actually incarcerated for seven years,

we think, alone during that time.

And so, you know, you have to wonder what that would have been like for him and what kept him going through the loneliness.

And then I was able to go to the British Library and Thomas Abel had written a book, which was really probably the thing that got him into trouble.

The. The Title of the book is great. It's Invicta Veritas. An answer that by no manner of law it may be lawful for the most noble king of England, King Henry viii, to be divorced from the queen, his lawful and very wife.

That's a great title.

Theresa: Maybe he could have had a shorter title and that could have been on the back of the book.

Speaker A: No, you would think. You would think. So it was on the back of the book.

It was so much fun to find this book because there's, I think, two. Two copies still in existence, and one of them is in the British Library. So I made an appointment with the librarian, went in, had to hold this book in my hands.

Theresa: Ooh.

Speaker A: And. Yeah, and the librarian said that someone had transcribed it,

and. And he printed it out for me, and I took it home with me, which is what I have here right now, actually.

Theresa: It's like, oh, my word.

Speaker A: Transcript. And it's. It's. It's hilarious because the English is creative spelling. You know, L, Y, F, E is life. And, you know, I don't. I don't know. It's. It's really kind of took a while to decipher.

But as I read through it,

I realized that he was offended that King Henry VIII and the theologians of England and France and just different areas were basically saying that King Henry VIII's marriage was unlawful before God and because of Leviticus.

But there's another verse in Deuteronomy where God had commanded the Jews to marry the wife of their dead brother and produce an heir.

And so his whole argument was, if God had told the Jews to do this in the law,

then it cannot be against God's nature. It cannot be an evil thing.

And so that's. I know, it gets really complicated.

You could tell that he was a lawyer as well. And it has this sort of legal repetitiveness as he's building the case.

But he was very impassioned about it. He called it blasphemy to say that what God had commanded was good was somehow evil.

So.

Theresa: Which is a valid argument. You know, you're just pulling out that. What was the scripture in Leviticus?

Speaker A: Yes, I looked it up right before we got on this ball to make sure. I'd remember.

So the verse in Leviticus comes from Leviticus 20,

where it says, if a man marries his brother's wife, it is impurity. He has violated the intimacy that belongs to his brother, and they will be childless.

And so King Henry VIII had said, that is why I'm childless, because I've married My brother's wife.

And,

you know,

and.

Theresa: Yeah, at the same time, he's. He's saying, well, I'm supposed to do.

Speaker A: Yeah, he was terrible. He was really terrible.

In fact, his second wife, he had actually had a relationship with her sister.

And so he was very hypocritical in arguing this, for sure.

But I think what Thomas and other. Other theologians and priests said about this verse in Leviticus is that clearly it was talking about marrying your living brother's wife. It wasn't talking about your.

The widow.

Theresa: Right. So, yeah, it makes a little bit of a difference, maybe.

Speaker A: Yeah. This whole idea, if you have two scriptures that seem contradictory, one's in Leviticus, one's in Deuteronomy, if you read them together,

there's a lot of wisdom that comes from that. And I think that, you know,

biblical scholars do that all the time. There's two things that sound like they could be contradictory if you actually read them together.

It. It makes a lot of sense, and it kind of fills in the gaps of things.

Yeah.

Theresa: To be able to research. So how long did it take you to do all this research?

Speaker A: I probably worked on the original research for about a year,

and then I wrote the first draft, and then I couldn't stop doing research. I kept finding little details, and especially about the tutor world. I started reading other.

Other novels, other historical accounts of things in tutor life. And so I would sort of tuck little details in here and there. And so I wasn't really done doing research until I hit publish.

Theresa: I know. And it's kind of a rabbit hole, isn't it?

Speaker A: Oh, I love it. It's so much fun.

Theresa: Yeah, it is, isn't it? Yeah. So to. To wrap up your story, though, basically. Well, I guess we won't tell the ending.

Speaker A: You know, it's funny that I think I've had people ask me about the ending, and I thought that that would be obvious from the beginning. He's a martyr in the Catholic chur.

Yeah, he is. But my.

One of my goals in writing it was writing it in such a way that that was a victory and not just a tragedy,

you know, because I think it is. Of course, it's a victory when somebody is faithful their whole life and is willing to go to their death proclaiming Jesus on their lips.

And so that was my goal in it. Yeah.

Theresa: And I mean, did you wonder yourself at some point whether you could do that?

Speaker A: Oh, yeah, I think there's always been that. That thought ever since I was a kid, you know,

I think, you know, you look at church history and you realize people have faced this over and over again.

And even right now, people all over the world are facing this. In fact, even in England today,

there's a lot of oppression in terms of being able to have freedom of speech.

I don't know if you're aware, but there have been a few cases where people have been arrested for praying in front of abortion clinics.

So there's definitely.

Yeah, there's. There's. It's. It's not easy, I think, to stand up for your faith in certain areas of the world.

Theresa: Well, and I don't think it's, you know, it isn't always easy in a lot of places. I guess with Thomas, he knew. He knew that.

Jan: He knew that.

Theresa: He knew that he was right.

You know, he knew his relationship with God, and he knew that what he was trying to do. And plus, he. He loved Catherine as a friend.

You know, I mean, he. He dearly loved the woman as a friend and wanted to stand up for her like that, too. So part of that made it helpful to be able to.

To keep your stance.

Speaker A: Yes, there. There definitely seemed to be a strong sense of loyalty and also a sense of what I would even call social justice.

Like, it didn't seem right to Thomas that this was happening to the Queen. And I think we know from history that a lot of people felt that way in England at that time, felt like it was not a just situation.

But most people were afraid to speak up and say anything because they didn't want to be on the King's hit list either.

Theresa: Right. And. And even still, at that point, what could they do?

Speaker A: You know, that's true.

Theresa: You could be against it, and you do. And you had all the different classes of people and all of that kind of stuff, so. So the power was not in their hands.

Speaker A: That's true. Yeah.

Theresa: Yeah. I think you did a fabulous job on it. It was just. It was a great.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Theresa: A great, moving story that I would recommend people read. Just because historically, for one, you know, but you. The way that you brought out your characters and your descriptions and all of the way it was all layered together, it's just beautiful.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Theresa: So what's next?

Speaker A: You know, I'm talking to the Lord about that right now.

I. I really enjoy hearing my favorite kind of movies and favorite kind of stories are the true stories that maybe I wouldn't have known and really exploring the motivations of why people do the things that they do.

And so I've been working on a story about another Christian Hero of the faith in. In the 17th century. So.

Theresa: Okay.

Speaker A: All right.

Theresa: In Europe again.

Speaker A: Yes. This one's in France.

Theresa: In France. Okay.

Speaker A: During the 30 years war.

Theresa: I just might have to go to France, huh?

Speaker A: Yes, I know. I know. I might have to do. Yes, yes. I might have to justify another research trip.

Theresa: Would you say that this book was appropriate for teens or for just, you know, adults? Is it?

Speaker A: Yeah, no, I think it's appropriate for teens. I really enjoy tutor fiction, but a lot of it can focus on sort of these sex scandals. And a lot of the books out there have things that I wouldn't feel comfortable giving to a teenager.

And so one of my goals in this was to have it something that families could enjoy together.

So it does. You know, of course,

there are adult themes in it, as,

you know, that was something that was a big part of the plot,

but it's a story about Thomas's faithfulness, and so there are no scenes that I think would be inappropriate.

Even his death. I tried to focus more on his looking to the Lord rather than the pain or the goriness of it,

so.

Theresa: Right. Yeah, I think it'd be a great homeschool book, you know.

Speaker A: Oh, I would hope so. I actually homeschooled my kids for 17 years,

and one of our favorite ways for learning about history was to read a historical fiction. So I had that in mind as well as I was writing. Yeah.

Theresa: So have your kids read your book?

Speaker A: They have, yeah. My. So my daughter really enjoys audiobooks, so she is listening to the audiobook right.

Theresa: Now, which just came out.

Speaker A: It. Yes, it just came out a couple weeks ago, and I had hired a narrator from the uk and he does a beautiful job,

just this rich British accent reading the story. And he does the queen's voice, who has a Spanish accent. Well. And I just. I was very pleased with his. His performance.

Theresa: Oh, that's great. Yeah, that's good. Okay, well, what would you like to leave our listeners with?

Speaker A: Just keep following the Lord. Just keep listening to his voice. Keep. Keep on persevering.

Theresa: Do what's right.

Speaker A: Yeah. Just. Yes. Yeah.

Theresa: Hold on to what's right.

Speaker A: Yeah. Walk with him and he'll show you what you need to do.

Theresa: Yeah. Thank you, Teresa. This has been really enlightening.

Speaker A: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me on.

Jan: So I would ask you and ask myself, what does faithfulness look like in your life right now?

I'm not sure if I would stand by my convictions clear to being put into prison for seven years and then beheaded.

Unless, of course,

like, Paul said in Philippians for to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain but if I live on in the flesh,

this will mean fruit from my labor.

Yet what I shall choose I cannot tell, for I am hard pressed between two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ,

which is far better.

I do think that this should be our goal, to be so steadfast, immovable, and ready to stand in integrity.

Follow this podcast for more faith building conversations. And don't forget to check Check out Teresa's book the Queen's Priest, available now in print and audiobook with a stunning British narration.

And if you're enjoying this podcast, think of two friends that you could share the link with that will help it grow.

I'll leave you with these Scriptures. 1 Corinthians 16:13 Be on your guard. Stand firm in the faith. Be courageous. Be strong.

James 1:12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test,

that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

And Micah 6:8 he has shown you, O mortal, what is good.

And what does the Lord require of you?

To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

I look forward to sharing time with you again next week.

Theresa: Until then.