"FINE: Falling Apart on the Inside, Nice Exterior" — Nicole Roth's Guide to Breaking Free

Joy coach, author, and dietitian Nicole Roth spent decades chasing achievement, applause, and the approval of everyone around her — and didn't realize it was breaking her until a brave woman pulled her aside and said the truth out loud. 

In this conversation with host Jan Johnson, Nicole unpacks the four patterns she calls the 4 P's — performance, perfectionism, people pleasing, and pretending — and what happens when shame quietly drives all of them. 

She shares the difference between learning about God and actually talking to Him, why she calls the alternative the "light and easy life," and the one simple mirror exercise that has helped women start moving out of condemnation and into confidence. 

If you've been serving, achieving, and doing all the things while quietly crumbling on the inside — this one is for you.

Jeremiah 17:7-8 (ESV) — "Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, whose trust is the Lord. He is like a tree planted by water, that sends out its roots by the stream." 

Psalm 46:10 (ESV) — "Be still, and know that I am God." 

1 John 4:19 (ESV) — "We love because he first loved us." 

https://uppbeat.io/t/monument-music/the-beyond

License code: PLMOP0FDXHN2NOJG

Nicole Roth is a joy coach, author, and dietitian whose company, Restoring Belovedness, walks women through a five-course journey from condemnation to confidence, from striving to overflow. 

Her book The Joy Quotient is available now, and her new book Light and Easy is in progress. Find her community and resources through her Substack and website.

00:00 — Welcome & Introducing Nicole Roth, Joy Coach 

01:01 — What Is a Joy Coach? And How Did Nicole Get There? 

01:41 — Raised to Achieve: The Bootstrap Home and the Wound Underneath 

02:38 — Achievement vs. Addiction: Why High Functioning Brokenness Gets Applauded 

04:11 — Leading the Homeschool Group — and the Field Trip That Changed Everything 

05:06 — "Who Have I Become?" Stepping Down and Learning a New Way 

06:29 — "Cease Striving": The Warning She Didn't Listen to the First Time 07:33 — One Step at a Time: Jan and Nicole on Learning to Let Go 

08:46 — Jeremiah 17: The Shrub and the Tree — Which Way Is Your Heart Turned?

 09:50 — The 4 P's: Performance, Perfectionism, People Pleasing, and Pretending 11:12 — People Pleasing, Love Languages, and Where the Line Gets Blurry 

11:42 — Cake and Icing: Why God Has to Be Your Primary Source 

12:21 — Where Shame Enters: The Cocktail of Fear and Shame Driving Everything 13:41 — Shameville vs. Gracetown: The New Book Light and Easy 

15:03 — The Three Characters: Shining Star, Busy Bee, and Stay Safe 

16:01 — The Overflower: Living from Abundance Rather Than Scarcity 

18:19 — The Sequoia Story: Getting a Vision and Awaiting Further Instructions 19:55 — Living the Light and Easy Life: Not My Thing, His Timing 

21:23 — How Jan's Podcast Started — and Why That Story Mirrors Nicole's 

22:23 — The Women's Retreat, the Thunderstorm Forecast, and a Sunny Week 24:46 — Who Nicole Serves: Entrepreneurs, Autoimmunity, and Spiritual Roots of Disease 

27:26 — Restoring Belovedness: The Five-Course Journey Explained 

31:19 — The Mirror Moment: The Most Powerful Tool for Breaking Shame 

33:53 — "Let God Love You": The Invitation Behind Everything Nicole Does 

35:27 — Encountering Abba: Breaking Out of Performative Christianity 

37:57 — Closing Thoughts and Thanks

Welcome to Just Talkin' About Jesus.

I'm Jan Johnson, a seasoned believer who loves relationships and, you know, just talkin' about Jesus.

Here you will find testimonies of those who God has changed through his grace.

Stories of feeling unworthy because of being sex trafficked, or of radical redemption of a woman who grew up with abuse, neglect, abandonment and drugs. A story of an abortion survivor. This and more. Lean in now.

Consider subscribing to this podcast, YouTube and Substack- all with the same name: Just Talkin' About Jesus!

https://www.youtube.com/@JustTalkinAboutJesus

https://jan-johnson.com/

https://justtalkingaboutjesus.com/

https://janjohnsonauthor.substack.com/

https://www.youtube.com/@JustTalkinAboutJesus

Thanks for listening!

If you have a story to tell, check out the form on my website- justtalkingaboutjesus.com.

I'd love to connect with you!

No, really.... hit me up!

Transcript

[00:00] Jan: Welcome everyone, today to this episode. I'm so excited to be here with Nicole Roth, who is a joy coach.

[00:08] What can be better than that?

[00:13] I think that if you can come to a point where you are joyful, that means you had some places where maybe you weren't so joyful in your life and things that brought you to that.

[00:26] So I'm excited to see what she's got to share with us. We're going to talk a little bit about the lies that we tell ourselves,

[00:33] about the feeling shame and how that plays into us and even into how that plays into our health.

[00:41] Yeah. And makes a difference with that. So welcome. Nicole.

[00:45] Nicole: Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here. And I just know we're going to meet in person. We are like soul sisters.

[00:53] Jan: I feel the same.

[00:53] Nicole: Yes, totally feel the same. We're going to make this happen.

[00:58] Jan: Yes,

[00:59] totally,

[01:00] totally.

[01:01] So you wrote a couple of books and one of them was called the Joy Quotient.

[01:07] How did your testimony lead you to where, where you became joyful or wanted to do something that, that you felt like you had something to really share with others?

[01:19] Nicole: Yes. And you are spot on. I lived in a joyless place for decades and so now living from that place of joy, I don't take it for granted. And when it's try, you know, when the enemy tries to come and steal that,

[01:33] I am very aggressively,

[01:35] you know, without it, I'm like, no, no, no, that, that's, no, this is not yours. I'm, I'm taking it back.

[01:41] And so, yes, I, my quick backstory is raised in a very staunchly German brutes home. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Kind of John Wayne. I don't know, you know, all the things that, just very,

[01:56] very independent, very.

[01:58] I would, I would say prideful. You know, just that like self aggrandizement, arrogance.

[02:04] And I thought that was great. You know, my dad went to Notre Dame. Education was extremely important. And so I kind of. And from an early childhood wound of peer rejection from my so called friends who turned on me over a rumor that I never saw said,

[02:21] really brought me to this place of really trying to, I didn't understand at the time, but trying to desperately find my worth and my value in what I did. And I know that that is such a trap and the, the problem, the biggest problem with it is that we receive applause for that.

[02:38] So it's easy to. And I did a podcast on the Basement with Tim Ross and that was my,

[02:44] my presentation of the conversation that we might have, you know, with his past, he went into addiction. I went for my own brokenness. I went into achievement. So addiction is vilified.

[02:54] Achievement is applauded. It's like all the. All the alliterations, you know, for days.

[02:59] But it's. It's really tricky to unidentify whether we're, you know, pursuing the job or the degrees or the accolades or the titles, because that's where the Lord has led us, or we're subtly trying to find that applause, that achievement that,

[03:16] you know, well done from others. And it's just. It's just so sad. I've met a woman at church recently.

[03:23] We were serving together at Easter, and. And she's, you know, the. The standard American question, what do you do? I'm like, I'm a toy coach. He's like, what is that?

[03:32] I get that reaction often. And actually, I didn't mean myself. The Lord told me that. I was like, I don't know what that is, but okay.

[03:39] Anyhow, I. I shared what I do. She confided him, and she said,

[03:43] she has four degrees.

[03:45] And she said, I love the applause of the stage at the end. That's why I do it. I was like, oh, girl, I. I understand.

[03:54] I get it. It's just such. There's so much deception. And so it wasn't. I thought everything was fine. I thought it was working well. I was getting the A's and achieving, you know, whatever in my dietitian degree or career in the hospital setting seemed all as well.

[04:11] Well, fast forward until my children. I have three daughters, thank God.

[04:16] And we homeschooled the whole way through. And so we. I started a homeschool program. I was the leader of that.

[04:23] And everything seemed, again, to be going well. I was applauded. Everyone's, you know, was. The group was multiplied. We. We had a waiting list. We had to divide into two because there was so much demand.

[04:35] So I'm like,

[04:36] yeah, you know, it's. It's going well.

[04:39] And it.

[04:40] Jan: I know that person.

[04:44] Nicole: You know, what comes next?

[04:45] Pride comes before the fall. And so I was on a field trip, you know, no, no guard up. No, no nothing.

[04:52] And one of the moms boldly approached me and said, hey, can we speak? I'm like, yeah, sure.

[04:57] No, you know, no, no, guard up. And so she's, in a matter of a few minutes, said, the way that you're leading this group is making women feel like they are never enough.

[05:06] They can't do enough.

[05:07] Jan: They can'.

[05:07] Nicole: Meet your standards. And I'm like, Excuse me.

[05:11] Come again?

[05:12] I don't. I don't know what you're talking about. And so I left. I thanked her and I went home. I sobbed all the way home. And I thought, oh, my gosh, who have I become?

[05:21] Like, what monstrous woman have I become in my own pursuit of this type A driven behavior? And so didn't really recognize the fallout. The Lord tried to warn me a while back before that, in a very rare moment of quiet time,

[05:40] I was with him in my closet. And I'm like, I'm going to do this thing. I'm going to sit. I'm going to be a Mary. Even though I'm a mover and a shaker, I'm going to sit and listen and hear what you have to say.

[05:50] And he very clearly said, cease striving. And I was like, oh, that was you.

[05:57] Jan: And I distinctly remember the day when God. I wrote it in a note. I think it must have been during a sermon or something. But something hit me. It was like,

[06:05] be still.

[06:07] Nicole: That's what it translates to. Be still. Just be still.

[06:09] Jan: And I was like, yeah, how do you do that?

[06:14] Nicole: I wish I would have in that moment, my testimony could have been, lord, you're right, I'm gonna go in a different direction. You show me.

[06:21] But unfortunately, I didn't listen to that still small voice. I kept on charging ahead. And so it had. In his kindness,

[06:29] he had to pursue me in a way that was humiliating, really.

[06:33] So I stepped down from that role and went on a journey. I. And I made my little speech before my group and said, I don't know how to live other than this.

[06:41] This is all I know,

[06:42] but I'm willing to learn. And so goodbye.

[06:46] And so we left. And just. The Lord is so kind,

[06:49] you know, when we're ready to listen, ready to learn a new way. But to learn how to abide, learn how to rest, to learn to give the reins, to learn to trust, dependent, trust,

[06:59] all new. Like I had. I have no idea how to do any of this stuff, but I'm willing to learn. So that's.

[07:05] Jan: It's like every other change, though, you know, it's got to be one step at a time.

[07:09] Nicole: Absolutely.

[07:10] Jan: You know, it just has to be one step. And some of those steps are the wrong steps. And so you learn from them and you go back, oh, 1 million percent.

[07:17] But what a precious thing that your friend felt bold enough.

[07:20] Nicole: I tell you, I have to have

[07:21] Jan: that conversation with you.

[07:23] Nicole: Absolutely. And I've done that. When the Lord has brought things to me and My mind, I'm like,

[07:29] gosh, I've got to say something. And so I encourage anybody listening. And if you have not, not, you know, in a place of meanness or whatever, but from a place of love, if the Lord is leading you to have one of those hard conversations, do it, do it, do it,

[07:43] do it, do it in love,

[07:45] you'll never know the outcome. And this is literally changing not only my own lineage and my own daughters, my relationship with them, because I was driving them shockingly,

[07:56] in our home school. You got to do this and you got to be this and you got, you got to make me look good, essentially.

[08:00] Jan: But also, don't you think part of that is what are the voices that. That are telling us we have to do that? You know, because there is those voices that come that,

[08:10] that I have to do this to be a good mom or I have to do this to be whatever. I have to do this too,

[08:16] because nobody else is doing it. So. And it needs to be done. And so what are.

[08:21] Where are those voices coming from? And do we really need to listen to em? And I think that's a point of transformation, is when you stop and go,

[08:30] oh, but. And usually it's yeah, but,

[08:33] you know,

[08:34] right,

[08:35] Absolutely.

[08:36] Nicole: Yeah, but totally it. It is such a huge thing. And that I'm very simple. I just think it very simple, small pictures and like the simple things.

[08:46] But the way that the Lord has showed me, he's really ministered to me out of Jeremiah 17. And that's what a lot of my writing is based on. But curse is the man who trusts in man's flesh and makes flesh his strength.

[08:57] He shall be like a shrub in the desert. Shall not see when good comes. Which is really describes a lot of consumerism and the Western culture. That's a whole other conversation.

[09:08] But. And then blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord. He shall be like a tree planted by water.

[09:13] Shall not fear when he comes. I mean, anyhow, those verses have ministered to me so deeply,

[09:19] but really it's this little stick figure picture of which way is my heart turned. All those voices are going to be there no matter what. The social media, the family, the in laws, the this, you know,

[09:31] our own voices, the enemy, they're all there.

[09:34] What are we going to do with them? Are we going to listen to that first before we go to the Lord and know our identity, his love, his grace, all of that.

[09:43] And so that little shift of which way is my heart turned today, this moment,

[09:49] and am I being,

[09:50] you know, with shame or fear, whatever the people pleasing, you know. Anyhow, I talk about the four P's a lot in the book. I had three, but a client, one on one client I worked with, she said, no, there's four.

[10:01] I'm like, tell me what's the fourth one? And she said, pretending. So it's performance perfectionism, people pleasing and pretending. These, these patterns that we fall into, and those are all forward facing.

[10:12] It's, you know, to the people, to the crowd,

[10:15] what do I need to do next to keep everybody and all the plates spinning and all the things happy? It's like, it's, it's a trap. It's complete trap. And it only.

[10:23] Jan: And I had that conversation with my, my daughters or two daughters are visiting right now. And one of them, we had a, A long talk heart to heart about you know, being a people pleaser, which she is not at all.

[10:36] I mean, she is free to just say no and not to whatever, but that,

[10:41] what is the, the root of doing that? And then we started talking about really how much of that plays into like the five love languages.

[10:51] So part of it is words of affirmation.

[10:54] I love words of affirmation.

[10:58] I love giving a card or a little, you know, comment or something that just says how I impacted somebody's life. Well, is that just like feed in my wanting to do or is it just.

[11:09] Am I. Is it okay? You know?

[11:11] Nicole: Yeah,

[11:12] that is, it's always. There's such a fine line, and the only,

[11:16] the only one that can answer is holy Spirit, because from the outside, it doesn't matter what it looks like, you know, we can still be. And I, in the marriage class I teach called Cherished, we talk about that and how,

[11:27] you know, are we using these love languages as,

[11:31] you know, like a manipulation tool? Well, you need to do like idolatry, you know, like, you need to do this for me, so I'm okay. Otherwise you're a bag of scum, you know,

[11:42] or maybe the Lord wants to do that for us predominantly, and he's, you know, so I teach cake and icing. You know, our.

[11:51] The Lord has to be our cake, and he needs to be the one that first fills us up, gives us those accolades, what we, you know, even quality time. It's like, lord, let's spend time together, let's go on a hike, let's go on a walk, let's go on a bike ride.

[12:04] And then if my husband is able to do that, that's icing, that's great. But if I make him my cake,

[12:11] I will End in misery, I will be in idolatry. And nothing will go well for either of us because it's just,

[12:20] it's such a trap.

[12:21] Jan: Talk about where shame enters into this.

[12:24] Nicole: Woo, girl. It's so big. So,

[12:27] okay, so those listening going, oh, this is not a big deal for me, me, I'm just going to speed up the, you know, to the rest of the talk.

[12:35] I highly encourage you to stay tuned because years ago, I think it was 2013,

[12:41] if I'm not mistaken, Christine Caine's book came out unashamed. And I so distinctly remember in our church at the time, they had an equipped class and they had her book and they were going to do some sort of study.

[12:52] And I remember reading the description and thinking, I don't. Like, I have a lot of issues. I knew that fear being one of the major ones,

[13:00] but I thought, I don't, I don't need that class. You know, I'm gonna pass that by. And the Lord's like, yeah, so maybe you do.

[13:11] Okay, all right. So I bought the book and I dove in and I'm like, oh snap. This is actually running everything.

[13:19] I mean, it's pushing the drivenness, the all of those four Ps, like it's app. It's a combination of fear and shame.

[13:27] Horrible cocktail.

[13:29] And it fuels so much of our decisions if we're not aware of those patterns and how that's,

[13:36] that's really playing out. So I talk. I'm writing another book called Light and Easy.

[13:41] And it's all about shame.

[13:43] And it's a parable. It's a story within a story. So the, the story inside the story is an allegory and talking about these two towns.

[13:53] The one is Shameville and Gracetown. And so in the Shameville they are three main characters kind of operating in these patterns. The first one is a shining star. So that was me, what I just described.

[14:05] It's very clear, you know, I'm out in front, you know, look at me,

[14:09] give me the applause, give me the accolades. Kind of the influencer thing if we're not in a healthy place.

[14:16] So that's the shining star. Then the second one is the busy bee. So that person is looking to serve out of that again, that incessant need to try to find value and worth and belonging, acceptance and all of that.

[14:30] When the Lord's like, hey, I need to give that to you first.

[14:34] And then the third one is the stay safes. And so whether they operated in those other categories before and they're finally like, I give up. This is not working.

[14:43] And just stay in that place of putting the big walls around their heart, staying, you know, into that place of fear and shrinking back and smallness.

[14:51] And so we just can run on these patterns in these. These, you know, living out these roles of these characters until we finally recognize this is not going well. And a lot of times,

[15:03] almost always,

[15:04] sadly, it takes. It takes pain for us to get that attention raised. And so whether it's our health starts to collapse, our relationships start to crumble,

[15:13] something is painful enough for us to go,

[15:17] this is not working for me anymore. You know, I need to go in a new direction. And so anyhow, so the. The alternate option is to live as overflowers, where we are filled up from the Lord in his love and his grace and in our identity in Him.

[15:34] And that's where the overflow, the fruit of the spirit, including joy,

[15:38] can then reside. And we have something to share with others versus living from that place of scarcity, of trying to get from others what we're trying to so desperately.

[15:48] The things that the Lord wants us to have, a sense of value, a sense of belonging, worth all of that. He wants to give it to us, though, rather than us trying to go off and all these other false sources of trying to achieve that.

[16:01] Jan: Yeah. I mean, it all comes to the bottom line is your identity. And if you're.

[16:05] If your identity is, I am the one that's going to be doing all of these things because they need to be done or because,

[16:13] you know, God gives you a vision or you feel like you've got a vision to do something and,

[16:18] you know, because I'm just like, oh, oh, that's a good idea. Yeah. Okay, let's get it done. How do we do that? Let's do this. Let's make it happen yesterday,

[16:28] which has been good, you know, but it's also you. You can get wrapped up in.

[16:34] Into the next thing and whatever. And it's okay to say no.

[16:38] Absolutely okay to say no. And somebody else. And if nobody else does it, well, then nobody else does it.

[16:44] Nicole: Absolutely.

[16:45] Jan: You know, I mean, it's.

[16:47] Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely right things, especially in our churches, you know, these good ideas that we might have to do these different things. I think if all of us as parishioners would really, truly seek the Holy Spirit of, like, is.

[17:01] Is this what you're calling me to do? Do I feel a, you know,

[17:05] a fire for this and a passion and.

[17:08] Not that everything needs to be easy or fun or, you know, none. None of that. But are you giving me the grace to go in and do this thing. Yes or no?

[17:15] Yes. Great.

[17:16] Sign up.

[17:17] But if. If it's a no and everybody's a no, then it just doesn't go, you know, like, that would be the ideal, that these things just don't happen because it was never his idea in the first place.

[17:27] And then we just end up trying to strive and,

[17:30] you know, work in our own strength to do what he never thought was a good idea in the first place.

[17:36] Right, right.

[17:37] Jan: And then, you know, just feeling that assurance, really, I think it's pausing in between and saying, okay, I'm going to take some time to actually pray about this.

[17:49] Really what God is leading me to. Or is this just yes,

[17:54] you know, another idea to go and pursue? You know?

[17:57] Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. And one example of that. So the Lord gave me download. I do something. I go for a walk every day. We have five dogs,

[18:06] and they're wild and crazy. And so anyhow, I go on a walk with at least several of those pretty preachers every day. And one of those days, I was, you know, minding my own business, and the Lord said, I want you to do interactive gratitude with me.

[18:19] And I said, okay. And so I get my journal out, and I said, lord, what do you want me to be thankful for today?

[18:25] And he showed me a picture of myself hugging a sequoia tree now as a teenager. And I was like, this is weird. I don't know if this is, like, bad pizza or, like, I don't.

[18:36] I'm not. I think I got this wrong.

[18:38] And at the time, I was in my late 40s, and I'm like, this is a long time ago.

[18:42] I did go on a trip to California, and I don't think I hugged a tree. But so I was like,

[18:49] okay, God. And so he said, yeah, that's what I want you to focus on, that trip. And just all that. So I did. I wrote about as much as I can remember.

[18:56] And then I said, okay, what do you have to say back? And he said this phrase, sequoia strong,

[19:02] and gave me this whole download. And he said, I want you to create a forest of sequoias. So, like, all right. I don't know what that means,

[19:10] but okay, I'm. I'm down. Whatever. Whatever you want. And so I wrote that all out.

[19:15] My former self would have gotten, you know, yes, I made the canva and the graphics and the logo and all the things,

[19:21] but my former self would have been like, thanks, God. I'll pick it from here. We'll see on the other side, you know, like,

[19:28] you know, so even if we have the vision, if he's not given the directives of what the next steps are again, we can go right back into that mode of self sufficiency and striving and it does not produce any good fruit.

[19:42] So I just made the thing I, you know, he downloaded many things about that.

[19:48] I just created the canvas stuff and put it on the canvas shelf and like awaiting further instructions. You're going to tell me what this is. This is not my thing.

[19:55] So you're going to tell me. And he does, he keeps telling me what's the next step that now I'm at substack and creating that there. So anyhow. But it's so peaceful because it's not my thing and I don't need to strive to make it happen.

[20:09] He's going to make it whatever he wants it to be in his timing. And he's going to get the glory. Because I'm like, I had nothing to do with any of this.

[20:17] So if we do that in every aspect of our lives, like, this was not my idea and you're going to make it happen and you're going to get the glory.

[20:26] Everything. Wash, rinse, repeat, like,

[20:28] that's a great way to live. And so that's, that's what my book is about. Like that, that's what we're invited into.

[20:34] It's not easy for sure, but that's the goal is to live from overflow and abundance and rest and margin rather than scarcity and striving and pressing and pushing and all of this.

[20:46] That does not work, doesn't give us. Well, that's.

[20:50] Jan: That, that's how this podcast started was just God dropping. Like, I want you to do a faith based one because I was already doing a secular one. And it really,

[21:00] because I think I have enough things on my plate that you've asked me to do already. So.

[21:04] Because I was in the middle of writing two books at the time and doing that and living life and you know,

[21:11] and I was like, oh, okay. You know. Cause I had interviewed somebody that had a faith story and I limited myself to not do it. So I was like, oh, yeah, okay.

[21:22] Even when I started the first podcast that he asked me to do and I just like, I don't, I don't

[21:27] Nicole: know anything about a podcast.

[21:28] Jan: I mean, I listen to him, but what does that mean?

[21:30] You know, and every little thing is, you know, oh, here, I'm gonna let you go to have a ticket to go to a women's podcasting.

[21:39] Convention in God Sale. Like, oh, okay, well, my brother lives down there.

[21:43] I have free flights. I have just every little step of the thing provided for to get me going and to do it. I mean, just like writing a book the first time.

[21:53] It's like, I want to write memoir about your husband. Well,

[21:57] I mean, I kind of like to write, but I don't know anything

[21:59] Nicole: about writing a book, you know, But

[22:03] Jan: I think, I think when you step out, you know, if you really truly are listening and you know, you know when God's telling you and it's not just some idea or something, you know, like that, and you really step out, you just take one step at a time and see where it goes with it.

[22:17] Nicole: Because if he wants you to do

[22:19] Jan: it, he's going to lead you in his timing to do it too. Yeah, right.

[22:23] Nicole: Yes. Yeah. We just had. I just had my first women's retreat and the weather was.

[22:28] It was, it was going to be in or it was, I should say, broken boat, Oklahoma.

[22:32] And we, I mean, we'd been planning for months and months and upon the week coming to the event, looking at the forecast, it was supposed to be not only rain every day, but thunderstorms.

[22:44] And this was. We're doing fly fishing, we're hiking, you know, like.

[22:47] And so I, my co host and I,

[22:50] we prayed and I'm like, jesus, you have a problem. Like, I don't think this is what you want for your daughters. If this is what you want, great, but I don't think it is.

[22:59] So I am asking for sun. Like, we don't want any rain. And girl, I'm not kidding you, it was so amazing.

[23:06] Not only did it not rain, it was sunny the whole time. We got to do all the things. It completely shifted the entire forecast. We have screenshots of everything to sun.

[23:17] And so I'm just like, lord, this is. It's just the best way to live.

[23:22] It's this light and easy life. Like, this is not my. It's above my pay grade. So I'm making this to you. This is your thing to begin with, so you have a problem.

[23:40] Jan: Yeah,

[23:43] Nicole: I love that.

[23:43] Jan: And you know what else I love too? I think God has a sense of humor, you know, I mean, I mean, he made us and,

[23:51] and put funny things in our minds or to do or to be able to laugh or whatever like that. I think it's okay to just talk to God like that and say, you know what this is, you know, I'm doing all these things and whatever.

[24:05] Nicole: But what do you Think maybe you

[24:08] Jan: could change that a little better?

[24:11] Nicole: No, it was, it was, it's just so,

[24:13] it's so freeing. The pressure is off. It's like,

[24:17] you know, we'll flow with whatever is provided. We're gonna, you know, but we would really love it if we could do all these things that are playing Father Papa Abba,

[24:28] so. And I just, I just know he delights in giving us good gifts and he wants us to ask and ask big. So it doesn't give him any glory to ask big, you know, to pray small prayers, so.

[24:41] Exactly.

[24:42] Jan: Exactly. Come to him with expectations.

[24:45] Nicole: Right. Yeah.

[24:46] Jan: Seeing how. Yeah. How he's going to respond when you as a joy coach, describe what that looks like for people.

[24:56] Nicole: Yeah. So I work with mainly entrepreneurs, mainly the hard on herself version. So.

[25:04] Have a hard time receiving God's grace. Grace.

[25:07] Whether they look in the mirror. And again, this is my, this is me. This is how I know this is my former self looking in the mirror, finding all the flaws, thinking the thoughts of condemnation,

[25:19] unworthiness, whatever it is,

[25:21] self rejection, self loathing. That is a whole other conversation that the, the health connection of the spiritual root of diseases,

[25:30] specifically autoimmunity. I've had autoimmune disorder,

[25:33] Hashimoto since my dad committed suicide 2005.

[25:37] And so just,

[25:39] you know, it's all, there's so much connections to that. So those are the women that I really serve, the ones that are really depleted. And I've identified at least the top seven forms of depletion that really bring us to the end of ourselves, you know, and that like uncle,

[25:57] I'm ready, all right? I'm ready to. I'm ready for something different. I am dissatisfied with the way that my life is going to be.

[26:04] And then our ears perk up to what do you have? What is, what's. What's the,

[26:09] the other option? You know, this is the way I've been doing things. This is all I know.

[26:13] Many of us were raised,

[26:14] I call it good girl syndrome. You know, be good, look good, smile pretty.

[26:18] We did all of that in our own strength.

[26:21] You know, typically before we had a salvation moment or you know, entering into that relationship with the Lord and so we kind of can return to that place again. The people pleasing, the pretending, all of those things.

[26:35] And it just doesn't work. I mean it might work in quotes, but it doesn't, it doesn't bring. We know that it's not working. And so there's a acronym that I really love.

[26:46] I didn't come up with this, but Fine, falling apart on the inside, nice exterior. And I just feel like that describes so many women in the church who are, whether they're serving their hearts or leading all the things, leading the charge,

[26:58] running the women's ministry, doing all the things and everything looks good on the outside, but inside they are crumbling and exhausted and weary and wondering really if God loves them.

[27:09] Or maybe they know that he loves them, but they're not really sure he likes them.

[27:12] And so those are the, the women that I serve and we move from whatever, wherever they are in that. I have a series of five courses that women walk through and they're, you know, it, it builds on each other.

[27:26] So the first one's called beloved. And that is moving out of condemnation into confidence, receiving, you know, that head knowledge of God loves me, Jesus loves me. Yes, I know you know this.

[27:35] I know into I know it like I know it.

[27:39] Ginosko I think is the Greek word for that. But anyhow, so that moving from that course, Beloved, the next one is called rested. And that's all about what we're kind of, what we're talking about today is moving out of that place of shame and striving and, or shrinking back into a place of understanding God's grace,

[27:59] understanding how to abide. This is, it's a lifestyle. It's, you know, it's, it's a way of operating in our. The way that we sleep and eat and move and you know, all those things.

[28:09] So it's very comprehensive. I bring in my dietitian background and passion for natural health and really share a lot of those kind of things. Practice, very practical. I'm very simple, like I said, very simple.

[28:20] It's like, what do I do? You know, it's like a 2am problem. What do I do with this? I don't want theory, I want. Give me some action steps. And so we,

[28:29] and we do these things together in a community setting. So I think that's where the gold is, is where, yes, I work with one on one with women, but I find the group setting really to be the best because women,

[28:40] they take the mask off, they start to share. I provide a safe place. I'm an open book. I don't have any. I like, I have nothing to hide.

[28:48] So I share all my dirt and you know, and then they feel safe to be able to share what's really going on.

[28:53] And so from there we move into.

[28:55] And these have. Course the courses have retreats connected to them. So that retreat that I just mentioned is called permission to pause.

[29:02] And then the first one that goes with the beloved course is called. It's a sanctified slumber party. So it's a long weekend.

[29:09] Just fun spa time, girl time.

[29:13] Just take again, take the mask off.

[29:15] Know that you belong in this community. You're not on the outside, because that's what the enemy wants to do, is you don't fit, you don't belong here.

[29:23] And we don't believe that. So anyhow. And then the third one is really attached to the Joy Quotient book that you were mentioning and really starting to do the battle with the lies.

[29:33] What am I believing about myself? What are the idols that I am serving, unfortunately.

[29:38] And then taking those out, you know, taking them down.

[29:42] And the retreat that goes with that is more of an adventure, like nature national park or other nature adventure thing, where we're actually doing something that's challenging together and overcoming.

[29:54] And then the fourth one is called Cherish. That's the marriage course.

[29:57] And then the fifth one is fruitful. And that one's all about living out our fruitfulness as a beloved daughter rather than an orphan. So leaving that orphan spirit and just operating in our full fruitfulness.

[30:10] What does that look like? What does he want us to do? And then helping women to step into desire. Something that you have on your heart to share. How. Let's help you to create the course or the podcast or the book or whatever it is to get your message out there.

[30:22] So. So that's the arc of everything that we're doing. My company is called Restoring Belovedness. So that's it. That's what we're doing. Restoring Belovedness. And it's. It takes a while for people to, you know, nobody's ever arrived,

[30:37] but that's a process of undoing what could be 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years of living, like, in. In these different patterns and undoing that and renewing our minds to God's truth and his word and encouraging others and encouraging each other.

[30:55] It's so fun. I absolutely love it. I feel like I'm over on the bleachers with my popcorn and just watching what God's doing. And not only am I, you know, the ladies that I serve, but in my own life as well, because we never, like I said, we never arrive.

[31:08] There's never a stopping point. There's always more.

[31:11] Jan: So in your book, the. The Joy Quotient, you have one. One activity where you're looking in a mirror. Tell us about that, because that's really foundational.

[31:19] Nicole: Oh, my gosh, it's so huge. So this first Step. And this is really just my own journey because we can help the best. You know, we can best help those that we used to be.

[31:29] And so I noticed in my own healing journey that that first that really needed to be moving from condemnation to confidence. And so the biggest tool that the Lord gave me for that, I call it the mirror moment.

[31:42] And it literally could be 30 seconds a minute, doesn't take long, but it's really profound.

[31:47] And this is not self love,

[31:49] because that's not what the Bible teaches.

[31:52] The Bible teach. You know,

[31:54] the Bible warns us against being lovers of self, but he's being the. The Bible's also very clear that we also need to know God's love so that we can give it out.

[32:05] So we love because God first loved us. And so if we kind of skip that part,

[32:09] you know, accidentally,

[32:11] let's go on to, like, try to serve the people.

[32:14] It's not going to work. It doesn't. It's just we're. We're giving out of an empty cup and it just is never gonna. It's never gonna work. So in that first course I mentioned, that's the goal is to use mainly this mirror exercise.

[32:26] And all you do, it's very simple.

[32:28] Go before the mirror, look yourself eyeballs to eyeballs, and say in light of God's love, and then say your name.

[32:37] I really, really love you.

[32:39] And I couldn't do that. The first time I was invited to do a similar exercise. Absolutely sobbed. And this is very interesting. I was in a health. It was called Health through Inner Healing.

[32:48] So every woman in that class had a chronic illness and there were about 15 women. And so we came back the next week to see what the response was from that exercise.

[32:59] And not one of us could do it.

[33:00] And so I didn't understand again, shame. Didn't think I had any.

[33:07] That is absolutely at the core is shame and unworthiness.

[33:12] And so being able to smile at ourselves in the mirror and receive God's love because he delights in us.

[33:20] That is.

[33:21] That's the goal. And it's. It's so beautiful. And if you master that, and that's no longer a problem or a difficult thing of how women move on to the next level.

[33:30] And that is to be fully unclothed before the mirror and to. To do say those same words about your whole body.

[33:38] And again, it can be very, very difficult to powerful.

[33:42] But yeah, the most powerful thing I've seen to break shame.

[33:46] Jan: So very powerful. Oh, my goodness. Wow. This has been really good.

[33:53] Nicole: It's so fun.

[33:55] Jan: So yeah, boy, we could talk for

[33:58] Nicole: a lot of hours.

[33:58] Jan: So maybe we need to do a series here.

[34:04] That would be fun.

[34:06] I will put things in the show. Notes,

[34:08] you know, links for people to know where they can find you and follow up and know just even.

[34:15] Yeah, all the stuff. All the stuff.

[34:18] What would you like to leave us with?

[34:20] Nicole: Oh, I, I think my biggest invitation.

[34:23] I just wrote an article for Sisterhood magazine and the title was let God love you.

[34:29] And that seems like a small thing, but it's massive that that plays that posture of receiving again. We, we have to start with God's love. Receiving God's love even in the midst, and even, especially in the midst of whatever has gone on in our past.

[34:46] And to let that love in and then to receive God's grace. Like it all builds on each other. But it really starts with let you know, love you and stop performing.

[34:57] You don't need to check boxes. You don't, you know this performative Christianity. I think a lot of believers, even with the like the Bible streaks of like you did this many reading, you know, that's awesome.

[35:08] Of course we want that.

[35:10] But it can turn into performative thing where we're learning about God, but we're not actually talking to him.

[35:17] So I have a journaling process. I'm happy to share it in the digital form if you want me to share that. But it's called encountering Abba and I've just heard amazing testimonies.

[35:27] I developed this with the Lord because I needed that myself to break out of that performance mindset of my relationship with Him. I did my Bible study, I checked the boxes, I memorized scripture, I did the thing.

[35:39] It's like,

[35:41] but did you learn about me? Did you talk to me? Did you hear what I have to say to you?

[35:45] So anyhow,

[35:47] that's the process I take women through. And again, it's such a delight, such a joy to see what God is doing. And again, it's not my idea.

[35:57] Jan: I also just think that throughout your whole process of as you've been working with other women and going through all that,

[36:05] that has to have changed you as well.

[36:08] Nicole: Oh, 1 million percent. Yes. I used to have a six month long program. This whole process that I'm describing with these five courses, it's about a ten month long process.

[36:15] But I used to have a six month long program and at the end I didn't know because the Lord told me to do it. I created all the things. 20 years of all this healing.

[36:25] I'm like, oh my gosh, all the quotes, all the books, all the scripture, all the things.

[36:29] And I did it. I'm like, okay, I'm done. And I mean,

[36:33] yeah, the before and after. I actually have a photo of my co host, Chrissy,

[36:38] that, that I just mentioned about the retreat. We have a photo of her just two years ago when she went through that process with us. And she's not the same woman like I.

[36:46] The picture. I'm like, oh, my word.

[36:49] Her first picture is very, you know, she's pastor's wife doing all. She's a busy bee. Serving, serving, serving, doing all the things and just not taking care of herself. Not having a voice, not having boundaries, not.

[37:01] And not knowing her own value. And so she's a new woman and she is so beautiful. She wasn't beautiful before, but just the radiance, her confidence, but her spirit is.

[37:12] Yeah, you could just see it popping out of her photo. And so I'm like, oh, my gosh, we need to start doing before and after pictures. This is phenomenal.

[37:20] So, yeah, God just does. He does it and yeah, absolutely. They always say the teacher learns the most. And I'm like, absolutely. I,

[37:28] I love being challenged in these ways to keep showing up and staying accountable. Especially with the marriage course, that's, that's a big deal because it's so easy to slip into,

[37:38] you know, finding faults and trying to nag and control and all the things. Like it's never going to again. It's not going to produce the fruit that we desire so dearly.

[37:47] Jan: So,

[37:48] yeah, yeah. So good. So, so good.

[37:52] All right, well, thank you for joining me today. This has been lovely.

[37:57] I look forward to meeting with you again another time.

[38:03] Nicole: Thank you.