Voice of the Occupier: Michael Creamer

Hosted by Adam Hoy, President of the CoreNet UK Chapter, this episode features a fascinating conversation with Michael Creamer of Cushman & Wakefield. Tune in to hear their thoughts on the pressing challenges facing occupiers in today's CRE landscape. 

Listen now to gain valuable insights and to stay ahead of the curve. 

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Transcript

 Welcome to the Voice of the Occupier, the podcasts from the UK chapter of CoreNet that dives deep into the world of commercial real estate from the perspective of those who truly inhabited. I'm your host, Adam Hoy, and I'll bring you insightful conversations with industry leaders, innovators, and visionaries.

Shedding light on the challenges and opportunities facing occupiers today. Let's get started.

Hi, everyone. Really glad to be back again with the CoreNet UK's Voice of the occupier podcast. I'm Adam Hoy. Current president of the UK chapter. I'm really excited to have my guests with me today. A gentleman that,  has been around the corporate real estate industry a long time has done a number of different things.

A practitioner, a lecturer, a podcaster, Michael Creamer has done a lot in the corporate real estate industry. I've known him for a number of years, worked with him in a number of different ways, and have always found our conversations to be interesting and enlightening and really hope to bring that to our general audience today.

So Michael, I'd like you to welcome you to the show. Great. Thanks Adam. Appreciate you having me. I guess the one thing I haven't done is work inside of corporate. I've always been on the service provider side. So maybe a slightly slanted view, but yeah, I think the good news and, you know, one of the reasons, Michael, I wanted to have you on is given your background in working with different occupiers, you know, I think from my point of view, and I've never been on the service provider side of the industry, I always find it enlightening to speak with you.

Speak with people like yourself, because you have such a wide view of the industry. You work with a number of occupiers across a number of different industries, and you've talked to a number of people, right? You know, in terms of the podcast work you've done, the lecturing you're done, I think you've done a lot and bring a really unique view.

And I think our listeners are going to be very interested in some, in some of the views that you have. So again, welcome. Thank you for joining us today. Really excited to speak. one thing I'd like to start with. You know, we, we've been a couple of years out of the pandemic now. CoreNet has really focused on the impact that the corporate real estate groups are having on, occupiers and, what effect we've had post COVID.

I think we've made a lot of positive steps. I think we've increased the brand of corporate real estate and a lot of our companies post pandemic. And I think it's been a really good time for us. And I think in CoreNet, we've paid a lot of attention to things like return to the office, things like, employee experience, workplace experience, and, we're really kind of turning that corner of, of looking for a seat at the table, I believe, to, to continuing to add additional, value post pandemic.

So it'd be really interesting from your point of view, where you think the biggest challenges occupiers are facing right now. What are you seeing as you speak to different clients?  Great. Thanks, Adam. I think there's probably two or three sort of big areas and, and  The first one I sort of comes to mind is ambiguity, uncertainty, whatever word you want to choose.

And you're right. I think the, the world of corporate real estate has taken a big step up post pandemic. And that's something maybe we need to dig in and to sort of why that's happened. And, and I think that opens some interesting avenues.  You know, businesses  since COVID are really redefining what work means. 

 So driving the right outcomes or the best outcomes for businesses in terms of what we do, the work environment, I think now is a real challenge. You know, maybe to give an example of that, if you think about what does work mean from a corporate real estate point of view, what it means, am I working from home?

Am I working on the road? Am I working from a third place?  Or maybe I'm even coming into the office, right? And you layer on top of that the environmental issues that we're dealing with, so everything to do with ESG, you layer on top of that the technology changes that are driving  where we can work and how we can work.

 And you've got to be able to talk to a business about what impact that has on their business. So I think that's important. Really tricky. I think we can absolutely work on it, but I think it's, it's not any, it's not as easy as it was for you and I pre pandemic, let's put it that way. Yeah. Agreed. I think maybe to, to pick on one of the things you said, and I agree, it's interesting, the, the step that the corporate real estate team has taken within the view of executives and a lot of big occupiers, right?

You know, we always say things like seat at the table. And I think one of the underlying, you know, views in CoreNet and, and groups like ours is we've, we've always wanted to get that seat at the table. And I think COVID, you know, not the best way, but COVID provided that opportunity for us to get a seat at that table.

So, you know, what do you, what have you seen? What do you think corporate real estate teams are doing more of better than they were doing? What do you think they're doing differently now compared to pre pandemic? I think the shift that is happening in some corporates and the shift, more importantly, that absolutely has to happen is, is about, for me, it's about data.

You know, I think we're a data poor industry, and by that, I mean, we can talk all day long about rents and yields and square meters and square feet and whatever else. But what we can't talk about or haven't really been able to talk about much is what the impact, the space that we design and have is on the workers and on productivity.  So the big debate now is on productivity.  The big debate is if I can be as productive at home as on the road as in the office, then what's the point of, of an office as we all know, and not to get into that debate. I think the underlying thing that's really interesting is data.

So the shift that is happening in some corporates is they're thinking, what kind of data can I get my hands on that will tell me. what I need to know to have those conversations at the C suite, to put into the business case that allows me to justify whatever it is I'm suggesting that we're going to do. 

So you think of, well, GSK's moved to Tottenham Court Road, AstraZeneca's moved to, to Cambridge. Those are big moves, they're costly, they're expensive, CFO has to sign off on them. So there must have been some data behind those that suggested that this was a better location and productivity was going to be in beyond the up and up.

So for me, that's a really interesting place that we all need to focus. Yeah, agreed. I think, you know, one of the challenges has always been correlating that data to productivity. And that's always been the, the Holy grail of, corporate real estate, how do we take that data? I think there there's services such as Leaseman and others that help kind of provide that lens.

Right. So I think for us in the industry, we've got different ways of, of taking information, benchmarking it across portfolios, either our own portfolio or other portfolios that allow us to kind of form that, that business case to senior executives around why we think we should.  invest money in certain things, why we think there's productivity and different outcomes that we can drive.

So I fully agree. I think data is an important piece. And again, maybe just another kind of offshoot of that, you know, we talk a lot about wellness and we talk about ESG and we talk about different things that we, we, we're starting to talk about those things pre pandemic, obviously sustainability has been around for some time, but healthy buildings and wellness.

It's definitely at a different level now. And you think of making that  value proposition, if you will, to the employee, you know, the term, earn the commute and things like that to, to bring people into the building, you know, something like wellness.  I think showing the employees that we have space that supports their wellbeing is important.

Showing the executive team, why having healthy people in the building is important. I think all those things are coming together the right way, but in your, you know, experience, wellbeing, wellness, how have you seen that evolve over the last couple of years or the focus on it, at least? Well, I think it's been massive and if I just step back a little bit and give CoreNet a plug and I guess also myself, I mean, seven or eight years ago, I set up a sponsored a PhD student, I say we, the Cushman Wakefield, and we got CoreNet involved, we got Royal Bank of Scotland involved.

And pretty much everyone said, why are you doing that? Why is productivity increase important? Why, why have we not thought about this before? It's impossible. And you fast forward and we have a pandemic and now everyone's talking about it. So, and in a way I think wellbeing is obviously different, but in the same category of.

You know, seven or eight years ago, people would say, well, that's not my responsibility as the employer. If you, Adam Hoy, want to go for a run and that makes you feel better, or you want to go to a spa or you want to take holiday or whatever it is, that's up to you. I leave you to you, but when you're in the office five days a week you're mine to do work.

And that, and, and your health and wellbeing is not my responsibility. The shift, which I think is really interesting, and I think it's generational to a large degree is that we're seeing, particularly in the Gen Z, this idea of what you might call individualism. So people are saying, I can come to the office, but I need to come to the office to do what I want to do in the way that I'd like to do it.

And if you don't provide that for me, then I'm going to go somewhere else, another employer, or, you know, or I'll stay at home or do, do whatever. So I think, whereas we grew up in a world of, as I said, square meters of rents, and you never thought about the employee from an individual point of view. We're now having to design space with everyone in mind.

So, and that talks to diversity, equity, and inclusion, of course, right? So there's been a massive increase in, in focus on that, which is obviously a very good thing. And there's been a massive increase in the focus on well being. And the other kind of stat that is off quoted is, if you look at mental health amongst the different cohorts in the workplace, mental health is deteriorating the fastest amongst under 28, 30 year olds. So as an employer, you have a duty of care because you want healthy employees because they're more productive. So it comes back to the productivity question. So all these things are interlinked, right? So I think COVID has, has made everyone realize that, you know, there's a difference between, You know, a machine doing the same thing 24 hours a day and a human, and we've rather forgotten that, and I don't mean that in a facetious way.

We designed space for people to come in, sit at a desk and work and go home. We've now got to think of the physical office, if we need one, and that's the first question, whether we even need them. But if we do, what's it there to do? And it's not there to be efficient in terms of maximizing the number of people I can fit into the space, but rather it's got to be productive in terms of giving the space that makes people do their best work.

So we're flipping everything on its head. And honestly, I think that's one of the biggest challenges, back to your earlier question, the industry has, is because we're steeped in a different way of thinking about this.  And I think if you start with well being and you start with data and you start with DE& I. And you start from a different place, we'll probably get a much better outcome.

Yeah. But I think that's really hard to do. Really hard to do. Yeah. Fully agree. I think putting the person at the center and then kind of figuring out what you need to build around that person is probably something that we haven't done, you know, until recently. And I think that's a really good point. I think with all that.

Yeah. in mind, right? We just talked about a number of things that have changed since the pandemic, different focus areas for CRE groups. In my conversations, you know, within CoreNett, we hold the occupier insight series where we bring occupiers together, those types of sessions, other sessions. When I talk to other occupiers, one of the things that comes up a lot is the amount of work that everybody has, right?

So we've seen We've seen new things come onto our agenda, but things aren't falling off the agenda. Right. And, and given there's only so much time in the day, I'd be interested if you have any thoughts in what CRE teams should stop focusing on. Right. We know what we should start focusing on, but any thoughts in, in, in, you know, kind of your experience, what, what the team should stop really focusing on?

And I think that it's a really difficult question to answer in a way, because of course, the, the, the. Paradox, which you're describing is how do I deal with what's in front of me, as well as my sort of mid to long term strategy planning, and both of those things have got more complex. So all we're doing is seeing the workload go up, as you've said.

Now,  at some point, technology is meant to make our lives easier. I just think it means we can do everything faster. And clients and customers and everyone else just wants things done in a, in a, in a more efficient, quicker, cheaper way. So I'm not sure that technology, although it does give us some efficiencies, is necessarily the answer.

 I'll tell you what I've found post pandemic, is this proliferation of meetings. So this is a kind of the other end of the scale from what I just said, but I think it's kind of interesting because I think we all went home. We all jumped on meetings and it was like the old war cry of, you know, how many, how many cities have you visited in the last two weeks and how many rental cars have you had?

From your, your, my day when we were in our 30s and 40s, now it's, I've got back to back meetings. I mean, I'd ban that term. I think if anyone has back to back meetings from eight to eight, they're going to burn out quickly. And it's a crazy way to, to work. And I think it's, it may be efficient, but it's certainly not as productive as it could be.

Right. So, you know, I think as managers, we've got to stop inviting everyone to meetings. and we've got to go back to a world where, you know, you, you know, there's almost not a hierarchy in the old fashioned sense, but information does have to get to people in different ways. And I think somehow cutting out meetings is actually one way of grabbing back time.

I mean, I think the other thing is we have to focus on what's really important. And again, I know this is maybe kind of  obvious to everyone listening, but it's, I've always found this really hard to do. So from personal experience, I want to do everything from personal experience. I want to see everyone, meet everyone, do every deal, do every job, right?

Be the best that I can be. And actually what I think is more important is from a CRE point of view is what are the two or three company goals that have been already laid out that have, and where can I make the most impact? And I'm going to focus on those. And my team's going to focus on those. And I've got to stick to them for 12 months until the, those priorities change, right?

So you know, you take ESG and cost savings, which are probably two of the biggest goals most corporates have at the moment. One cost you money, ESG, the other is all about taking money out. That's not easy. So I think we've got to spend more time on fewer things to free up time. Yeah it makes complete sense.

The other trend that is happening, and I don't say this in a self serving way, but I think there is more and more opportunity to outsource to different types of providers. But I also think we've got to get more strategic in how we outsource.  So I think there's some interesting things that could happen in the outsourcing market that would free up time for corporate real estate executives. Be that using how, how they're using technology to make their days more efficient. It's not just about the real estate, it's about the function of corporate real estate. So I think we need to think about that in a different way. Fully agree. And, and, you know, this comes up in conversation a lot. It's about really being clear around who does what in your, in your supply chain.

Right. So I think a lot of, you know, people that I speak to, there still is lack of clarity on how an outsourced service works. Who does what? Are we duplicating roles? And, are we, developing shadow organizations. So fully agree. I think time management is key. You know, how leaders are looking at expectations when they put meetings together, how people show up during meetings, as you said, I think there's the people don't want to be left out, right?

So they feel they have to be. To take all of these meetings, right? And you're exactly right. The term back to back, back to back. I think that's something that we need to get away from. So fully agree that we need as leaders, we need to look for ways to enable our people to, to, to balance their day a bit.

And I think it's, I think it's hugely important. I think if I look, you know, kind of deeper into some of the data and the tech items that, that, that you mentioned, in working with, with clients, are you seeing any really embrace AI at this point? Is it still something that's new? I know there's a lot of talk in different sessions I've been in around, you know, what could we do with AI today to really push ourselves forward?

But are you seeing any examples of, you know, not asking for specific companies, but are you seeing any, any, any good pieces of work come along? In the real estate space, it's really early days. So I would say, you know, we're in the, you know, step one of a very long journey. So I think people are, what we're doing is trying to figure out where it can help.

And I think for right now, it's around the margins. I think it will only increase. But again, I mean, it's a really interesting point. Because in order for AI, To have an impact for us. We've got to find time in the day to make it have an impact. I mean, you know, lots of people have it, don't use it or use it.

I mean, I know people who use it to rewrite their emails. So they have a softer tone when they're sending something to their boss or whatever it happens to be. I mean, that's not what we're talking about, how it's going to be really efficient. I think it's going to take, you know, 12, 24 months before it has a major impact.

I know, you know, so we're using it and we're using it, I'd say, in a good way around the fringes of core stuff. But again, it comes back to my data question. I mean, you know, I think the biggest use of AI right now in the real estate space is how you can analyze and use different data sources to come to better conclusions about what you should be doing.

And so that's where I'm seeing it. Being used, not in a brokerage capacity, let's say so much, but we have the ability to take more data sets and analyze them more quickly. And hopefully, and therefore, not hopefully, but therefore get to a better solution as to whatever we're looking at. So if I give you an example of that, you know, more and more real estate's about labor and where, where the labor is and kind of get my hands on it as a business.

Who's working at the competitors so on and so forth, right? The number of data sources that are now publicly available, not everywhere globally, but in, in much more so in the U. S. and Western Europe than elsewhere, it's phenomenal. So I think we can make much better real estate decisions if we start with the labor.

And labor analytics, and you can use AI to help you collect the data, analyze the data, sort the data. I think you still need human interaction to interpret the data. Yeah. So it's doing part of the job for us, but not all of it. Yeah, fully agree. And I think that's, that's a really interesting point. If I think about, you know, kind of back to the last question, what should we stop doing?

And to think of it the other way, what should we start doing? I think, I think getting into labor analytics and, you know, the corporate real estate team really playing a lead role in that is something that I'm seeing more of. I'm hearing more from occupiers that they're getting involved with. I think there's a lot of historic.

Occupiers where that would, that would remain in the HR team or into the business units themselves. Right. And, and the corporate real estate team would show up kind of after that analysis has been done to plug into what the output might be. Right. And I'm definitely hearing from more occupiers that they are starting to, to proactively get into that space where they're, you know, not necessarily asking for permission to do it, but just kind of getting involved to say, Hey, we can add more value.

If we come in before you've done the analysis, we can help with the analysis and then execute on a transaction within the markets you identified. Right? So it sounds like you're seeing that too. You're seeing more CRE groups getting involved in that. Yeah I think what you have to remember is.

You know, HR teams were built around, you know, what I euphemistically call pay and ration. So they're involved in that, they're involved in setting goals, internal training,  is how it then evolved to that. So you go on training courses, different management levels, different groups, you know, what they weren't involved particularly in hiring, obviously, but that was because we had a physical office in one place and people had to come into work five days a week. 

Now what? We don't have that anymore. Yeah. I mean, maybe we'll get back to it, but I don't think we will. So now what we're finding is those HR teams don't have the skill sets or don't have the bandwidth. To do it number one number two. It's not something that necessarily happens every day So as a bit like outsourcing, I mean, do you want to build an hr team internally?

That does nothing but that when you don't need it all the time so it's I think it's an interesting thing to outsource because I think the best skill sets or the best skills For that sit outside major corporations because most haven't built a team to do that So what we're finding is we're We're either doing it completely, more often than not in the larger corporations we're partnering with the HR team to do it.

And they go, oh, you know, we don't have those data sets, how do you get those? And we go, well, you know. We, you know, they're publicly available. We buy them in as it were. But so I think it's, it's, it's not a criticism of HR teams. It's just, it's not something they've had to do before, but it's now become business critical, right?

Fully, fully agree. And yeah, if we can connect the dots, yeah, every, every corporate back to your saving money, right. They've, they've cut back on the non client facing services to a large degree. So, you know, money's being thrown at the technology teams. So I think HR has probably suffered a bit in, in that sense.

Yeah , we're seeing it more and more is, I remember, you know, again, we were talking about this pre COVID, weren't we? The war for talent.  And the interesting thing is the, the, the pointy end of that is tech talent. It doesn't matter if you're a bank, a tech company, a pharma company, a real estate firm like Cushman.

We all need people who understand and can show us how we can use technology to improve the business, right? So all businesses have a big percentage of their employees are in tech. So we're chasing, I'm going to say the same talent, but you know, in the same sphere, right? And there's a lack of them because it's a new industry, right?

 So it's a very interesting challenge for our time and going forward. So speaking of that, and if we look at, we think about some of the, the, the younger people within our industry, right? I think, one of the, the basis and one of the core remits of CoreNet really is to look after, People coming into the industry, kind of setting them up for success in the industry.

We know we publish a lot of content. We put a lot of different types of learning events on, and it's really focused on the younger members of our community and the B the people that are at the beginning of their career. Now I know, you know, I I've known you for a long time. I know you've definitely you know, had a passion for mentoring and bringing teams together and, developing people in terms of their career. And you're obviously an advocate of the, the corporate real estate industry and, and kind of all that has to offer young folks as they come into the working world. I'd say. So if you were to pitch, if you will, corporate real estate is an industry to somebody starting their career or coming into you know, corporate life and not really knowing where they'd want to go.

Tell me a little bit about how you would make that pitch to, to a younger member of , you know, either new to corporate real estate or  debating whether or not to get into corporate real estate. Firstly, I'd say I've, I've absolutely loved it. I mean, you go into a career not knowing whether you're going to love it or not.

And I have, and I've been lucky and made my own luck, but I started going to CoreNet meetings in the U. S., so I moved from London to U. S., and then moved to Hong Kong, and then moved back to London, so for me, it's given me a global career, which has been fabulous, and so I couldn't recommend it enough, just from that point of view.

Secondly, you know, it does depend on what your passions are, but for me, I'm fascinated by, by cities, by planning, by how things were evolving and changing. And I always have been, and actually real estate kind of scratches that itch for me. So I think if you have that kind of mindset it's also a super industry.

You know, you think about planning and architecture and buildings, you know, I love walking around cities and doing that sort of thing. So I think people need that kind of, maybe that's something that, that gets their juices flowing I think I've combined that kind of love, if you will, with just a real interest in, in business.

So again, I think if you've got an interest in business generally, and Adam, you and I have talked about, well, sports and business, I guess I'd say, because that's what you and I tend to talk about. But I just think it's really interesting. And I think what's happened in the last two to three years is, you know, I wish I was starting my career again now because, you know, arguably it was a bit sort of slow moving and incrementally changed, you know, for the last 20 or 30 years, COVID came along and we're in all sorts of interesting spaces now, as we've talked about for the last half hour.

But,  you know, I'd say to them, look, if you're interested in business and how you can help businesses grow and how you think about. where they should be located and why they should be located there,  and how property plays a part. Super interesting industry. And now you combine that with ESG and technology and working from home, which is, you know, how people work.

You know, as I said, if I was starting all over again, I always wanted to do three things, either town planning, architecture, or real estate. And I'd probably have the same dilemma again, and I'd probably pick real estate again.  So I think for all those things, complexity, ambiguity, I think all those things really come into play.

I like the jigsaw puzzleness of real estate. I don't think it's simple. I think it's complex in a good way. And I think good people shine in it because they, they make that complexity simple. So that's not really an elevator pitch. That's a long rambling why I like real estate so much, but I think that sort of passion for it is, is, is there.

And I think, you know, anyone I'd recommend it to anyone who had any of those sort of thoughts about what they enjoyed doing. Yeah. fully agree. I think it's one of those areas where you get that helicopter view of the business as well. Right. So not only, you know, on the occupier side, you get the opportunity to plug into an industry and a community with corporate real estate, but you also get a high level view of your business.

You know, we're not good at our jobs if we don't understand what the business needs and how real estate can help support that business. So I think , it enables us. to learn not only the corporate real estate industry, but, you know, another industry as well. So fully agree. So Michael, listen, I really appreciate the time today.

Really fantastic. You and I talk often and, you know, good that we can record one of the conversations because I really enjoy it. And, I learn a lot every time we talk. to together. It's, it's really a fascinating conversation.  So I want to thank you for being on, on the show today. The CoreNets UK chapter is, is lucky to have folks like you in, in, in the group because there's a lot of people to learn from.

So really appreciate your time and coming on the podcast today. Great. No, thank you. And thank you to CoreNet because, as you know, I've done a lot with it over the years and always enjoyed it. So, it's been a tremendous help to my career.