Voice of the Occupier: Ronen Journo

Hosted by Adam Hoy, Past President of the CoreNet UK Chapter, this episode features a conversation with Senior Managing Director, European Head of Management Services at Hines, Ronen Journo.  Tune in to hear their thoughts on the pressing challenges facing occupiers in today's CRE landscape. 

Listen now to gain valuable insights and to stay ahead of the curve. 

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Transcript

 Welcome to the voice of the occupier, the podcasts from the UK chapter of cornet that dives deep into the world of commercial real estate from the perspective of those who truly inhabited.  I'm your host, Adam Hoy, and I'll bring you insightful conversations with industry leaders, innovators, and visionaries.

Shedding light on the challenges and opportunities facing occupiers today. Let's get started. 

Really happy to be back here in 2025. Again, we have a great guest today. My guest is Ronan Giorno with Heinz. He's the head of European management services. Welcome to the show, Ronan. Really happy to have you here today. 

Hi, Adam. So it is nice to be on the show today and thank you so much for the invitation.

Yeah, absolutely. So Ronan, we've known each other for a number of years in Cornets and I've seen you at a number of industry events all over the world. And you've had a really interesting career, I think, in terms of the journey you've taken. So I was hoping you could just maybe start by, by telling our listeners a little bit about your background and some of the things you've done over, over the span of your career.

Sure. Happy to. So I just just started my 31st year in the world of the built environment in this 30 plus years. I've spent 26 years paying rent. So representing the occupier. I actually joined Cornet before Cornet came to life in the days of IDRC back in 1994  when I worked for. The Spina Katsikakis at DGW, shortly afterwards, I moved into Cisco Systems and played multiple roles in Cisco during a long journey of 21 years, ultimately to lead the EMEA organization, which was a very dynamic organization, very dynamic portfolio due to a lot of acquisitions.

And that was an excellent training ground of learning what it is to be a corporate real estate leader and really strive for that. Partnership that sit at a table with our country leaders with our original leaders and figure out how do we add maximum value to to our core business after 21 years at Cisco?

It was the right time to make a move and get uncomfortable, and I went and joined Adam Newman. I worked for Adam Neumann for three years at the, at the heydays of WeWork. When I joined Adam, WeWork was only 300 people. When Adam left, we reached 15, 000 and the rest is history. My role there was to help build the enterprise business.

By the same time, translate for the WeWork leadership, how do occupiers of large scale, the global occupiers that Cornet represent, how do we make decisions? How do we think? How do we, how do we formulate a real estate solutions at the portfolio level, at the local level, and really make sure that the concept of flex was becoming part and parcel of what every occupier  on earth.

was considering. So it was fascinating journey, but everything came to an end after three years and I was back on the market. And at that stage I said, I need to bet to get even more uncomfortable. Let me look beyond the occupier, beyond the service provider. And the opportunity came to join Heinz, which hopefully the audience are familiar with Heinz, but it is one of the world's life cycle integrated.

Investor, developer, manager, and operator of real estate. It's a family owned business owned by the third generation of the Heinz family from Houston, and we are a discrete giant. We do things at very large scale across the world, and we are highly diversified. We do everything from high end skyscrapers and placemaking to high end retail, logistics, data centers, and residential. 

So that's where I am today. I have moved from the paying rent occupier side of the equation to the investor developer operator side of the equation, and it's been fascinating. 

Yeah, that's great. I think a really, really interesting career track. I think, as you say, you've seen the industry from all angles, obviously being, being around for 30 plus years, the, the change between where we sit now in terms of the seat at the table and, and obviously the, the way that CoreNet looks to help its members in terms of upskilling them to have a bigger voice, to, to add more value, to, to really.

Creates that, that sense of place, uh, for its, its, uh, enterprises that, that it, that it supports. You've been, you've seen it from, from multiple different angles. I think, uh, given that Ronan, you know, we're at an interesting point in the market today. It's hard to believe that the, the pandemic started almost five years ago, but we know that.

In the corporate real estate world, that's, that's definitely a marker in time in terms of how things were pre pandemic and how things are post pandemic. I think as an occupier, you know, we talk a lot about return to office. I think that I think that conversation has probably died down a bit, but we know in 22, 23, even into 24, Return to office is a big thing and what companies were doing in order to incentivize and, and, you know, earn the commute was something that we talked a lot about a couple, a couple years back.

I think we're, we're nearly through that. I don't want to say a hundred percent because it seems like every day you still see something come up around. You know, this company is five days in the office or there's, there's new new thinking on that. But given the fact that we are 2025 now, can you, can you talk about some of the challenges that you are seeing in the marketplace?

What, what occupiers are seeing as challenges these days? 

Yes, happy to. And. Maybe one, one point, many of  our listeners will probably say, well, how would you know what occupiers are thinking, given that he's now in the world of the investor? I've never left the occupiers world. I'm still a very active member of Cornet as well as Urban Land Institute.

Uh, but I interact with a lot of occupiers on behalf of Heinz because we feel it's fundamental for us. To build bridges with the people who are our clients, who pay the rent, who occupy the portfolio and the buildings that we, we build. Um, I think being an occupier today is, is, is really complex and challenging place to be.

Uh, because you mentioned Adam, there is the concept of hybrid working, yet there is the push top down. We want everyone to return to the office.  So we have the mandate versus the magnet.  How do I deal with Apple, you know, senior leadership who want to mandate a return and at the same time, we fundamentally know that the office needs to become an evolved to become a magnet.

a place that people choose to go to,  because they have an emotional connection. They have an alignment to the brand and that's a place they have a community and they really want to go there and it has the right amenities that support their wellbeing. So I think that's, that's a really big challenge and a balancing act.

How do you, how do you deal with the messaging and narrative and the management practice versus the way you provide services. Equally, I think post COVID, every large occupier in the world has begun to accelerate the optimization of footprint,  right? Get rid of excess and reinvest in the core strategic locations that we maintain.

Uh, and that comes with costs. So what is the payback? What's the ROI for making those trade offs? And at the same time, Do I relocate or do I stay, right? The cost of money is still very high. The cost of construction is high. So does it make sense to really relocate? So I think again, back to portfolio planning and scenario planning, it's become even more complex than in normal times.

On top of that, we have  decarbonization. That's not going away, whether it's operational carbon or embodied carbon. The real estate team is right in the middle of this conversation.  And why is it important? Because every one of our occupiers is a business. is having to make declarations to their customers about their position. 

So if you're in professional services, in manufacturing, right, in IT, you're making declarations to your client base. And the real estate leader have to, have to be in the middle of that. What am I doing to my portfolio versus what we're telling the market?  I think the final element is that there is growing expectation from the workforce.

We have now four generations in the workforce, much bigger, growing young employees in many, many companies, and they're expecting more from that destination. We call the office.  They expect the amenities. They expect hybrid. They expect flexibility. They expect a degree of personalization  and on top of that, they want to feel a sense of community and they want to know that everything we're doing is having a positive impact on the community and the social  environment around them. 

This is a tall order for any leader to contend with.  And I think with that, it brings. with it demands on the skills and capabilities of the corporate real estate team  and individuals. And where do they spend their time? Do they spend their time on cost cutting and risk mitigation? Or do they spend their time on social impact and decarbonization  or navigating all of that? 

So I don't envy my peers and my colleagues. I think it's a really tough place to be. But equally, I think intellectually, it's probably the most fascinating. Time to be in corporate realistic  compared to you when you and I began decades ago. 

Yeah. Yeah. Fully agree. I think the skillset that people need is evolving and that's, that, that's for sure.

You know, the, the, the, the term you used kind of at the beginning of that was, was, uh, mandate versus magnet. And, and you know, that's a phrase that, that, that I've heard from others in the industry. It's interesting and I fully agree, right? It's, it's, you know, my hope is that the, the level of mandates. Go down and we're providing these magnets for for people to want to come back to and I think You know in the corporate real estate world, you know That's really what what what we're driving towards is to create these spaces where people want to be part of that I'm wondering from your seat, you know, I I think from a from an occupier and i've seen this from, from different lenses, you know, you have the, and maybe it's a, it's a general generational thing as well.

But, but, you know, depending where a corporate real estate team might report into CFO, I think there's a lot more that are reporting into the, to the, to the HR group in some instances now, but you, you know, you always come back to the, the, the question about finances and costs. Right. And, you know, I think we've seen a lot of.

flight to quality where maybe companies will have a smaller square foot footprint, but that they'll have a, a nicer office or, or set of offices from, from your, from your point of view, how are you seeing that debate play out in companies where, where, where the corporate real estate team has to put that business case together?

Maybe it might cost, you know, the cost profile might be different, but how are occupiers creating that magnet in, in, in this marketplace? 

I think it's an excellent question. So perhaps I think it's important to look at what's happening out there in the streets. And if we take the example of London, the flight to quality that you describe, Adam, is very real.

You know, your own organization, GSK, is yet to visit, but it has just opened a much talked about extraordinary building right at the heart of London, near Clifford Chance, relocating from Canary Wharf.  But right to right to the city,  HSBC has got a plan to relocate and a number of other large players are moving closer to the center,  smaller footprint,  but higher cost pound dollars per square foot,  much better access to transportation,  much better access to local cultural amenities.

And services and really that whole equation is not only about optimization, but it is about the war for talent.  It is about attracting and retaining the next generation of digital employees that you need to bring into the workforce.  Whether you are in a law firm or in a pharmaceutical or in a tech industry or in the banking, that is the equalizer.

It is back to the wall for talent. Equally, it's about recognizing that your brand is conveyed through the physical space and the place you call your headquarter. So again, where am I located and the type of building I'm in and the level of amenities and services of my building.  State something about the values of the organization and the brand and organizations have become very conscious of that.

And so between the world for talent and the brand, organizations are making those conscious decisions. Smaller footprint. I recognize hybrid working is not going away. But equally, the purpose of the office is shifting.  It's not necessarily just going to be, you know, 40 hours a week or 50 hours a week at my desk.

People come together to collaborate, to learn together, to meet clients, to demonstrate, you know, their products. So therefore, organizations are saying the office has a strategic importance in the way I do business.  It's not just the second largest cost for my P& L.  With that, I think the role of the real estate leader is to have a deeper understanding  of the talent  and really get under the skin of the world of HR.

What does it cost to bring our talent on board, talent acquisition? What's the cost of churn of losing people,  right? Who are we fighting against to bring talent on board? Get a deeper understanding of the cost of talent, get a deeper understanding of brand and brand value,  and equally get a deeper understanding of risk. 

Reputational risk as much as business risk, not just facilities risk, and the more the leaders go into those domains, the conversation does not just become about, you know, pounds or euros per square foot and three year payback or five year payback. It becomes a bigger conversation about, is this going to enable our business  to go where we want to go in the next three to five years. 

And then the numbers, not that the numbers disappear, but the numbers are taken in the context of a much bigger business conversation. I hope that makes sense. 

100%. I think, yeah, spot on. And, and that's definitely the conversation that, that we're seeing more of in, uh, discussions we have with occupiers around how they're bringing value to their, to their enterprise.

And I, and I fully agree. I think it's interesting because if you know, you think back a couple of decades, that really wasn't the conversation, right? The enterprise would put together. A place where people worked and the expectation is you come into work. So the corporate real estate team simply had to, to fit the building out, make sure things worked, but the magnet was the bosses saying, this is where you work 40 hours a week and, and it wasn't a, it wasn't a choice and I think that mindset shift is definitely there. 

definitely from the, the, the occupiers, the people that are using the building in day to day, but I'm definitely seeing that more with, with upper management in terms of how it needs to be positioned to make sure people are coming in. Interesting segue. I think one of the things I want to talk about is the role of the corporate real estate executive in the enterprise and the evolution of that.

You know, if I think about Cornette and what Cornette tries to do, obviously from, from a networking perspective, really a good organization to, to, to keep, professional contacts and to learn from people, but also upscaling different individuals and professionals in, in the world of corporate real estate.

So in your time, how are you seeing that role of the CRD executive evolve? I think we've, you know, we've always talked about getting a seat at the table and I think more of us are doing that, but, but give me some of your thoughts in terms of the evolution of the corporate real estate executive. I think if I could just 

mention back, back in the late nineties, Cornet published three, Books, manuals, which were called CRE 2000, you may remember them.

And those for me became the Bible of where corporate real estate as a role, as a function, as a profession began  to get identified back in the nineties. And, and it really helped us visualize the journey we have to take from being a specialist taskmaster doer to subject matter expert. That eventually should strive to become a true business partner and enabler and a leader of change  in supporting an organization.

So fast forward today, 30 plus years later, I think today, what I've seen is that.  We still need subject matter experts within a corporate real estate function. We need to, we need to have people who understand construction facilities, operations, data centers, hospitality, transactions,  without doubt. Uh, but often those, that, that expertise now resides in the hands of our partners, of our service providers.

So within a corporation, within an occupier, the role of the real estate team and leaders Has evolved dramatically.  They need to have much, much stronger business sense as I describe a better understanding of finance of HR  of risk or brand  of how a business operates, how people generate revenue and develop products.

And what does that mean? to the way, the way a workforce plan is formulated. How does that translate into an M& A strategy? And thereafter, what do I do with that in terms of real estate solutioning? So they need to have a much broader understanding of the core business. They need to have much stronger people skills. 

There's no excuse to just be, you know, I'm an engineer and I just do my thing. If you're in charge of a corporate real estate function, you have to be a connector. You have to be an effective communicator. You need to have curiosity and you need to be humble enough to acknowledge.  that to enable the business, you must partner. 

The real estate solution is not the only solution. It doesn't work in isolation. So you have to work with the HR and the legal and all the other functions so that the whole package supports your business.  And those are, those are people's skills. Those are interpersonal relationship, communication skills, navigation skills.

That need to be constantly refined to be effective.  I hope that makes sense. I'm sure from your leadership position. You are seeing that 

Yeah, fully agree. I think the you know, one of the interesting things is and you're right you need you need a team that have the fundamentals covered right so the transactions fm delivery projects, whatever it may be, but it's definitely over and above that now and I think if we think about People coming into the industry, we see them coming from other parts of the business, other types of, you know, more general management skill sets where they can understand what the business strategy is.

And then, and then take that and help craft a specific corporate real estate strategy, whether that be a real estate or FM. So fully agree. And I think, you know, the role of, of groups like coordinate in helping upscale, I think I've seen the evolution of. The learning programs, you know, obviously the fundamentals are there, but, but focused on stakeholder relationships focused on understanding the business business at a higher level.

I think those are, those are things that, that, that are important given that, you know, if you, if you take a crystal ball out, do you, do you see. You know, in your, in your, in your opinion, what additional value can we provide? Are there things that we could be doing differently, more of, you know, one of the things that I caution, you know, teams on is we want to be very good at what we're good at.

And if we can add additional value, great. But if we can't, then, then let's stick to what we do well, but always open to, to, to see where we could push. Are there areas that, that you see, you know, of opportunity for corporate real estate organizations? 

Yes, yes, absolutely. I think first of all, I think you're spot on.

I think as a corporate real estate leader,  you must get the basics right.  The buildings need to be well maintained, the food needs to be served on time, the toilets cleaned, right, data centers running with no failure, and the right degree of hospitality and quality. You must get the bread and butter right, because if you don't,  All the aspirations to be a business partner, an innovator, help on an acquisition integration, those will go out of the window because you will not have the credibility and the trust of the people who run the business.

So getting the basics right is fundamental. It's essential. The next step is once you get the basics right, and once you have the right people in your team with that inquisitive mindset and the right personality to engage and collaborate, there are many areas where we can support any business. One is clearly in innovation.

How do we support the innovation side of our business? Whether it's, you know, in, you know, entry into new markets, acquisitions of companies, incubators, there, it's, there's, it always comes down to a physical place where those innovations take place. How do we enable that? Uh, so it's, it's an ecosystem conversation.

We can help our company with the brand value.  Uh, every location conveys messages about who we are. So if you're supporting the Olympics game, if you're supporting a particular other sport or event, the building is an instrument that helps your business convey.  Who they are and what they are. So how do I support those events in time?

Because it supports the marketing. It supports the business. Which I think is really fundamental. And I think if you take it to 36, 000 feet,  business is conducted inside a physical environment.  Right? If you take it to that level.  So we have a really important role to make sure that everything is seamless. 

Everything from the experience of the customer coming into the environment, the way they're greeted, the way they conduct their business, the way technology supports. The meeting and the demonstration, whatever is taking place, we're really there not to underestimate that all of those elements, if they work well, they are supporting and enabling a business transaction and business growth.

When they don't go well, it creates a mess.  So not to undermine that, that, that important role. And finally, I think it's around the  ESG, whether it's an environmental impact or the social impact. It's again, the convergence between the business, the culture, technology is the physical space.  So make sure you're in the middle of the conversation and you are helping to solution it and connect the dots.

Ronan, I think you've had the opportunity to work on many different sides of the equation in the corporate industry world. I think we're at a different position with regard to occupiers and landlords and how they interact. Can you talk a little bit about your view around how that relationship is looking today, where it might be different from past years?

Yes, thank you for the question, Adam. I think historically, just using the terms landlord and tenant created a gap. And when we look at the list documents and we look at contracts, they often  introduce the tension. between the parties and there are too many, you could argue that there are many intermediaries between the person who owns an asset building and the occupier who pays the rent.

I think the industry is recognizing that that needs to evolve. One of the biggest changes is, is Angela, right? Our former CEO of Cornet Global, who has now joined the Urban Land Institute. I'm a member of Urban Land Institute, have been for the last 20 years. I've been a member of Cornet for over 30 years. 

Our apply is around developers and investors in real estate. Cornet is really predominantly occupiers and now service providers. So I think there is a recognition that we need to start building bridges between a demand and supply. Why do we need to build bridges? Because if we're going to solve  The most fundamental problems of decarbonization,  we can't do it in isolation. 

70 to 80 percent of carbon footprint in the building is controlled by the occupier.  The remaining balance is controlled by the operator and developer and owner of real estate. And if we're going to make a difference, we need to join forces.  Placemaking. The occupier only controls so much of what happens in the building or around the building.

To really do placemaking like we know in King's Cross and other parts of London, for example, or Paris, the occupiers must partner with the operators, the asset managers, with the owners of those environments to actually get the right mix of services, amenities, to support the placemaking activities. So again, partnership, social impact requires partnership. 

The last one is really flexibility and optimization.  If an occupier wants flexibility in their building,  yes, you can sign a shorter lease. Yes, you can go into flex. But if you truly appreciate the location, And you like the relationship you have with your, with the owner, you need a dialogue  about flexibility, how your business is changing and evolving, and how does the owner of the building can work with you on those changes. 

It doesn't always have to be black and white. I relocate. So I think there is a recognition in the industry that. It's time to get closer to each other. It's time to build bridges. It does not mean that we kick out the brokers, the agents, and the occupiers reps. On the contrary, they are important facilitators of this new dynamics of the relationship.

We're doing that very proactively in Heinz, by the way, on the back of a very substantial development called 18 Blackfriars. We have, uh, assembled, uh, a number of roundtables with heads of real estate. Regional and global purely to test our vision. With them.  There's no obligation for any other than is our vision.

Here's what we're going to develop and build and invest in. What do you think?  And for us, it's fundamental that we hear directly from the people who are managing those portfolios. So I think we're embarking on a new era  where speaking, we're going to have to develop common. Matrix, common success measures, and we're going to have to understand each other's language. 

Because today the language of an investor owner is quite different than the one of a corporate real estate. But I'm optimistic. 

It's good. I fully agree. I think, I think redefining metrics is a good, good way to put it, right? I think we, it doesn't have to be adversarial. And I think we're seeing more of that now.

So I think it's, it's an important point. And I think more can be learned if we bring those relationships together. Absolutely. Totally agree.  Ronan, this has been very interesting. I think one, one final question I would ask you as, as you've been, you know, a member of CoreNet and other organizations for a long time, I think we both would say we were in a, in a great industry that's provided a lot of the growth opportunities, benefits, but if you were to give an elevator pitch to a new grad, somebody coming into the workplace, what would be your elevator pitch for the corporate real estate industry?

I would say  it's probably one of the most fascinating professions that one can choose to pursue.  And it's complex, yet it's simple. It has many, many facets.  You can go in many directions. You can go to the investor and developer side of the equation. You can be in an operator and manager. You can be at the construction side.

You can be a design side, or you can be an occupier side. So  it's got tremendous richness. It's got tremendous complexity. And at the same time, when you get it right, it creates.  Emotions, right? Every office building, every built environment, every building that we interact with creates emotions and has an impact on human beings, whether it's in retail or residential offices.

So it's something very tangible. And if you like. To be in a, in a business and a profession where you can visualize and touch,  uh, what you do, well, real estate is one of those places at the same time. I think it's intellectually very stimulating,  many, many different aspects you can choose to go over 30 or 40 year career.

So I would, I would highly recommend it to, to any youngster who is thinking to pursue a career in this. All I would recommend is that they focus on diversity and very rich set of experiences. Don't get locked into one area for 20 or 30 or 40 years.  Step out of comfort zones and try something different.

Seek mentors, have a couple of good mentors who will guide you, have different sets of experiences and find your passion.  Some people are passionate about design, about engineering. Find your passion with this, within this world and hang on to it. It's going to take you very far. 

Fantastic. Listen, Ronan, I think you, you summed it up well.

I fully concur. The amount of opportunities in the industry is phenomenal. And I like the way that you put it through the conversation to get uncomfortable. And I think that's where we grow is when we become uncomfortable. So I think you've been a role model of that through the career that you've chosen.

So listen, Ronan, really, really glad to have you on today's episode of Voice of the Occupier. I think the listeners will concur a really fascinating discussion. So thank you for joining us today. 

An absolute pleasure. Thank you so much, Adam. 

Thank you. And thanks to all that are listening. We'll be back soon with another episode of Voice of the Occupier.