Voice of the Occupier: Patrick Marsh

Hosted by Adam Hoy, Past President of the CoreNet UK Chapter, this episode features a conversation with Chief Property Officer at Imperial College London, Patrick Marsh.  Tune in to hear their thoughts on the pressing challenges facing occupiers in today's CRE landscape. 

Listen now to gain valuable insights and to stay ahead of the curve. 

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Transcript

 Welcome to the Voice of the Occupier, the podcast from the UK chapter of CoreNet that dives deep into the world of commercial real estate from the perspective of those who truly inhabited. I'm your host, Adam Hoy, and I'll bring you insightful conversations with industry leaders, innovators and visionaries.

Shedding light on the challenges and opportunities facing occupiers today. Let's get started.

Hi everybody, and welcome to another episode of The Voice of the Occupier podcast, brought to you from the UK chapter of Cornet Global. I'm Adam Hoy. Good to be back with you again today. I have a special guest with me today, Patrick Marsh. Somebody that I go back quite a number of years with.

Patrick, really happy for you to be here. And thank you for speaking with us today. Great, Adam. Delighted to be here. Thank you for inviting me to your podcast. Absolutely. Patrick, you've got a very interesting background in terms of corporate real estate. We've talked to a lot of different leaders over the course of the show, and we've talked to people that have done a few different things.

I don't think we've had somebody that is in the, the role that you're in today. So can you give us a little bit about what you're up to today and then maybe a brief background of what you've done? Yeah, I've certainly got a, an interesting mix of things. Thanks for flagging that. I think in terms of the, the history chartered surveyor by background, you know, started as a graduate of CBRE, I think, when the world was still black and white.

Not wishing to show my age, but I've really kind of balanced my career over being a client and a consultant. So yeah, I had the pleasure of running some pretty big global accounts. Microsoft, an example, Unilever, Adam, where we first met. But then also, you know, client side. And I've been very fortunate.

I've worked in some really interesting mergers, acquisitions, you know, divisions of companies. So, you know, HP to agile technologies, you know. Consulting when it went to Accenture and of course most recently, GSK as it went into, and we're headed at property there. So very much corporate related.

Today, I'm not corporate, so I'm the I'm the inaugural Chief Property Officer for Imperial University. So a very different change of direction into, into higher education. I've swapped the airports for the delights of South Kensington and, and White City. Probably asked me some questions around cabin fever later on, but it's just very different.

You know, I've got 600 staff, I've got a 1.5 billion bunch of assets. I've got 8 million square feet, but I've got everything from a sports division to early years to engineering, to project management. So it really is like running, you know, a whole new company. So very different. Yeah, that does sound different.

I think you know, you, you take some of the challenges and I'm sure they're similar. So maybe you could talk us through some of the projects you, what kind of things are you working on and maybe if you can compare and contrast a little bit between the experience you've had from a corporate side, so to academia and give us a flavor of what that looks like.

I. I get the question a lot, which is, you know, you've, you've swapped crazy corporate for sleepy university. That's actually the complete opposite. I don't think I've worked quite so hard. So you've got all the sort of same things going on. So, yeah, one big thing, and it was actually announced today, so super topical, so new operating model.

So how do you take an organization that's been in play for 10 years? Plus, you know, with it, with its culture and how do you modernize it? You know, how do you get that fit for purpose performance orientated? So, you know, not dissimilar from a change management view to the corporate world, but I think, you know, that drive around.

Delineating performance, how you establish it, how you bring that into a culture that, that's very different in this higher education world. Another big area for me, you know, same for corporates energy and sustainability, but particularly energy transformation. You know, these are big portfolios, big estates, you know, big fossil fuel, reliant, you know, legacy structures and strategies.

And how do, how do you do that differently? So, you know, merging a lot of work around hybrid strategies, ground source, heat pumps, air source heat pumps, and all the other sort of decarbonization activities that you would expect in the portfolio. So different, I imagine corporate world just because of the nature of the estate, the size and scale you know, our own energy utility centers.

So just a much bigger scale of complexity. Other things, capacity. You know that that challenge between, we're in growth mode, more students, more academics, more professional services leaders, but the utilization isn't there. So how do you fulfill your sustainability credentials by not just building new space constantly.

So how do we reuse what we have? How do we repurpose it? How do we take away some of the fiefdoms? But ultimately, how do you drive up that capacity that's that's pretty similar to. To corporate world. I can imagine. And then back to utilization. One of the first projects I had walking through the door was, let's relocate a few people from our South Kensington campus into agile working.

So, you know, we don't really do agile working, so again, very different perhaps to corporate world and things I was doing 10, 15 years ago. To suddenly pick up 1200 staff and put them into a single floor plate, 50,000 square feet office and to do it in just under 10 months. Yeah, that was a pretty dramatic project.

And one that's just landed very, very successfully. So a lot of similarities, a lot of differences, a lot of work. Very interesting. Maybe just to dig into that a little bit, so the, the stakeholders and the customers you have, it sounds like a variety of different groups. Obviously you have students, right?

The, the, the, the, the lifeblood of the university, the students that come through. Then of course, administration and the staff that would need different types of space. So, can you talk a little bit, when you said utilization, do you look at utilization in terms of, you know. In-person online classes. How did utilization come into account when the stakeholders, a group of students?

Can you talk a little bit more about that? Well, I think the first, first challenge is even just understanding the utilization. So what I found interesting around Imperial, you know, it's a every day of the year operation. So you kind of think there's gonna be students coming in for three terms, there's gonna be a lot of downtime, holidays, and everything else.

What I've actually discovered is, you know, undergraduates, postgraduates, you know, they have different times, you know, when they wanna work. Some stay on campus all year. We have almost 50% of our student population, you know, is international. Particularly our Asian students also like to stay on campus. You know, for most of the year we run summer schools, our hall of residents turn into hotels.

There's always events going on, so it really is just a constant city of activity. I. As you walk around, you just find areas of, you know, emptiness. And I think, you know, we don't have sensors really just beginning to triangulate our wifi data. So actually, you know, the empirical evidence around utilization is still pretty nascent for us.

I think what you then see is you split the space into three real types. You know, the office space, you know, the more traditional co collaboration areas, easier to understand, easier to visualize. I think the lecture theaters you then come into, is it the lecture theater, you know, the quality of the environment, or is it the time tabling?

So there's a bit of a blend between the two. And then of course we have a lot of laboratories and you know, you know, from your time at GSK, it's difficult to monitor whether a lab is actively being used, whether it's being run remotely or whether it's just an old lab that's no longer fit for purpose. So still trying to wrestle with that puzzle of.

How do we delineate what's true utilization? How do we land on what's the, the new pie chart of space distribution that we should actually be going for? And then how do you do all of that and mine out what really is, you know, potential and latent capacity and therefore you can underpin it with your growth agenda.

I. So again I like my challenges and I've definitely got one around utilization in a, in an HE environment. Yeah, sounds like it. It's, it's interesting because it's, it's just a new layer of complexity with regard to that student section. Right. When you, you go from a corporate into, into a university kind of thinking that stakeholder group and, and what, you know, do you think about experience when you think of students, how do you overlay a, an experience lens across space that you create for students?

So you come into to different benchmarking organizations and I think what we're seeing, you know, we have, we have a very new estate that we've built out in White City, and they're in the process of constructing further, and then we've got very old estates. You know, we've got nine in total. So part of the challenge is.

You know, like a corporate through an m and a process. You know, there isn't really a consistent level of workplace or portfolio. It depends on, you know, when was it bought, when was it gifted, when did it actually get delivered? So the first challenge is, you know, consistency of, you know, look, feel as you come through the space.

I think what we then land on, and our students have been very vocal around this. They're, they're kind of okay with the lab environments. You know, they're reasonably okay with the teaching environments. We just need more of them. But what they're really struggling with is, you know, where do they go and collaborate?

Where do they actually go and get that quiet downtime? So we've probably got the least amount of capacity imperial compared to our peer group around the collaboration, you know, the creative and the quiet spaces. So that's something that I'm looking to dial back up into that space. Experience. Yeah, I noticed this when I walked around Imperial.

I was quite vocal from day one, particularly coming from Haley and GSK environment, you know, expecting to see our science on display, expecting to see our brand everywhere that we walk through the environment. Actually, it's, it's very internally focused. You know, you can walk around the outside of the campus.

You probably wouldn't even know what's actually going on in any of the buildings, so I. There's an opportunity to bring the outside, outside in, and the inside out so that the culture is far more visible to everybody. So I know that from an experiential viewpoint, it's important not just to current students, but also you know, the students that we want to attract.

And I think just on that similar vein, some of the world's most brilliant ideas are being cultivated in imperial things that are orbiting Mars at the moment and lots of other amazing environmental things that we're doing. But you wouldn't know. So again, to what a point you actually start to showcase the IP and the thought leadership that's coming from such a prolific in integration.

Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. I think, you know, if we talk about experience and, and clearly one of the things that you've been out in front of for a number of years is future work. And obviously you were thinking about future work before it became a buzzword when we were coming in and out of COVID, I think, you were definitely a pioneer in that space. Can you give me, you know, some more general thoughts where you think the market is with regard to what we call future of work, what some new trends might be, what you're seeing from, from a broader sense? Well, I was delighted to walk around GSKs new HQ and Totten MCC Court Road, so I could recognize some strands of DNA in there.

But what I really enjoyed about it was. Seeing it done on scale and seeing that, you know, that human-centric experience was really important to the organization and because of that, I think it allowed you to, you know, you'll, you'll tell me, but I think it allowed you to successfully navigate. Yeah, a major change project and a major downsizing from the original hq.

So I'm still a huge fan, a huge advocate of the fact that it should be a healthy experience when you go into the office. I still believe that it should be a highly interactive experience when you go into the office, and I still want to feel and understand the brand for the corporation that I'm actually working in.

So nothing that's different in terms of my kind of belief system. It's interesting, the project I referenced around moving 1200 people into White City. Actually, I took a secondhand office building, so it was a good design. 7-year-old fit out from a tech company called Net Supporter. But I was very clear with my peer group that I wanted a single floor plate.

So, you know, 50,000 square foot floor plate is is pretty large in its own right, but we used 80% of the existing fit out. So apart from sensory rooms you know, some other wellness areas, I didn't build any other walls in the space. You know, I reused all of the workstations and the furniture. But what we brought in was very subtle, discrete branding, particularly focused around acoustics.

You know, we brought all the biophilia in that you would expect to see, you know, suspended imperial eyes in the sky, and just things that are talking points to the organization to come in. And what was fascinating, you know, within a week of having moved in, just the amount of feedback from the team around collaboration.

Because they'd come from such isolated parts of the broader campus. They, they just weren't seeing their colleagues. So now, you know, single floor walking around, of course coming to, you know, the noisier part of the environment for their food and beverages and everything else. It's just absolutely dramatically increased the level of collaboration through the organization.

So I still think that a lot of these are fairly simple techniques that you can employ in the offices. I still walk around a lot of office buildings where they're just very vanilla. And I think with the exception of, you know, GSK that I've seen recently, I feel as though we've, we've gone backwards slightly, you know?

The level of retro around, you know, health centricity of the office environment doesn't really seem to be there. A lot of the, the visuals you see of new buildings posted on LinkedIn, fine. There's a lot more work, there's a lot more biophilia, but there's not a lot that's particularly new. So I, I'm just really curious whether the, you know, the corporate community is, has lost value or just can no longer afford to see the value around interesting, curated, you know, health centric workplaces.

So I think definitely at a, at a, a inflection point in the industry. Yeah. So that was kind of gonna be my next question. Obviously, you know, if you go back to your GSK days, obviously you were doing experiments and looking at future work you know, way before COVID, right? So we, we had kind of the work that you were doing with the team.

We then went into COVID and out of COVID, and I think COVID in general in the marketplace gave us a little bit of space to try different things, right? Because we, we, we know that. Coming out of COVID, we were, a lot of corporates were ramping up in terms of people getting back into the office. And I think we saw a little bit of latitude from, you know, the, the general market in terms of what we could do and what we could try in different buildings.

And that was gonna be my question. Do you, are we progressing quickly enough and what we saw kind of coming. Pre COVID through COVID and now, and it sounds like, you know, the offices you are seeing aren't quite, you know, keeping pace with where we could be in terms of health, wellbeing, connectedness, et cetera.

Is that, is that kind of your, your view? It's an interesting conversation. I'll, I'll look at the, the office that we've just moved into. So I brought Sonya Stocker, one of my former colleagues, you know, to come and help me around the change management. And in reality, probably the, the design and delivery of the physical office.

Yeah, it was 10 or 20% of the total project. I massively underestimated the complexity and I guess, you know, the, the political change management needed in an he environment to get 1200 people to want to move into. Agile working and leave their, you know, their core academic environment and to move to a different part of London, even though White City is one of our campuses, and to suddenly move into this agile office.

What I've actually seen is because we invested the time and continue to do so into the change management of the office, and because we gave them a really nice, interesting office with the features that I promised them, you know, on the first week I think of joining Imperial. So they, they saw the trust that we, you know, we wanted to focus into the space.

It's actually landed, so it still comes back to. You have to curate and constantly curate the experience. You know, the, the change doesn't just naturally happen. And if anything, people are still resistant to the change. You know, that COVID lag hasn't washed through the system yet. I, I don't understand. You know, all these years on we're, we're still probably at pre COVID levels of utilization, but that said, you know, the busiest day I now have in the office is a Friday.

We're at about 70 to 80% utilization on a Friday, and we've only launched this in the last six, six weeks. Ask me again in six months time to, to reaffirm the metrics, but I was really nervous bringing my team in and saying, first of all, you've got to do three days a week in the office. It's gonna be anchor days because 1200 people don't fit into to 50,000 square feet.

And guess what? You're gonna have an anchor day on a a Friday. It's landed, and again, it's back to, you know, the environment that we're in, using the facilities around us. You know, providing different levels of experiences in the office and the social events. So again, it's, the office is important, but the social fabric is essential to glue together your culture and, you know, your leaders need to recognize this and invest into the change management.

Yeah. Yeah, I think the change management is so key. I think you look at big projects and if you don't get the change management right, you know, you can have the shiniest, coolest building, but people need to be taken on the journey of kind of where you were to where you're going why it's beneficial for them.

And I think that's, that's a, it's essential part. And it sounds like in academia it's the same, it doesn't sound any different from corporate. Which makes sense. So, Patrick, you've been around the CoreNet's group for a long time in different iterations. Clearly, one of the things that, that we try to do is look at different ways to educate people to bring them in and help them in their careers through networking and, and training and whatnot.

As we started the conversation, you've had a really interesting career. You know, you've, you've gone through different different companies, different sides of the industry. Maybe just a, a question about your experience through your career in corporate real estate. Can you, can you give a little insight around, the benefits of getting those different views, how has that benefited you as a professional, you know, working at CBRE and then GSK and now, can you just talk a little bit for younger listeners who might be thinking about how they build a career, how you've kind of thought about that through your time? I think it, it's a, it's a wonderful career, a wonderful industry to come into.

I think the first thing is it's such a diverse industry. I mean, it's global. There's real estate everywhere. There are companies providing and servicing, building and, you know, dealing with real estate in every, every country around the world. So, you know, all of that fabric of opportunity exists straight away.

You know, I'm a chartered building surveyor, you know, back in the day. And if you'd said to me, the younger version of me, you know, would I expect to be a, a global leader or a chief property officer for, you know, one of the world's top universities? I, I would never have foreseen that coming through. But what I did and what I enjoyed about the industry is I.

There are brilliant people there. They'll talk to you. Go and find them. You know, don't, don't be shy. Be bold about, you know, your network and connecting. You've got some very smart clients out there. They're very keen to show you your space, to tell you what you did. I find this a very open industry in terms of people's willingness to, to share.

You've got brilliant platforms. You know, corner is a good example where. That accelerates the access to all of this. So use your network and people want to hear from you. They want to know what you're actually learning. So don't be shy. You get your case studies, get your voice out there onto the various platforms, and I think the extra dynamics that I brought in.

Yeah, I, I really enjoyed every time I went into a, a different client, particularly from the consulting side, to just stop and pause and understand what was different about them. Because there's always something different. You know, Unilever is very different to a, Microsoft is very different to an Nestle, so stop and try and figure out the culture.

They'll also do something which is better than any other client or corporation that you've worked with. So what is that particular system or process or way in which they, they motivate their leadership teams that you can take and rebrand as your own. So I think just be cognizant to, to seeing and what you are observing.

And I think the final piece, which, you know, I've, I've absolutely adored over my career. You know, my kids ask me over dinner, Hey dad, how many countries have you been to? And I can never remember, but it's more than 50. It's the fact that I've had a chance to, to literally visit the world. And therefore, you know, you see so many different types of environments, different ways in which we deliver.

All things property and real estate around the world, but you just get to meet some truly brilliant people. And again, you know, if I look back at the network, the individuals have a chance to, to work with lead, manage, et cetera. Yeah, it's thousands and that's great. You know, I still get contacted by lots of them on any given day around LinkedIn and the other platform.

So, you know, you really do. Generate this brilliant community. So work it, you know, total advocate for it, but it's there for you to just go and go and embrace. So embrace it. Yeah. Yeah. That's really good advice. I think I. A few things that I might add. One of the things in talking to teams and especially people that you know, have been working different occupiers or maybe service providers, it's really key to understand what's important to the business that you're working in or supporting.

Right? I, you know, you go back 10 years, 15 years to the, the Google offices that we all heard about, the, the ball pits and the slides and all the cool things that Google was doing right when they started doing cool things. The thinking was you can automatically take that and, you know, put it into a different company and it would work.

That was the way to do things. And you know, you take that into a Microsoft or JP Morgan and you know it was gonna work, but obviously once you, you're around for a little while, you understand that certain things that work at Company A might not work at company B. So I think it's key to understand the company that you work for and what matters.

So I think. For young professionals coming into the industry, it allows them the opportunity to really understand the business and then take that, you know, that they build the strategic skills of mapping what their expertise might be in the corporate real estate world to what the business objectives are, which I think is phenomenal.

And I agree, the ability to, to, to, to be part of different teams globally and to see different things I would agree. Phenomenal. Benefit of working in, in, in the, the, the property world. Patrick, I really appreciate you joining us today. Like I said, we, we've known each other for a bit and it's great to hear about what's going on with your current role, like you said, a little bit different than the the roles you've had in the past with corporates.

It sounds like same challenges. You know, another thing that I tell the team quite a bit is we're always supporting people and people are people no matter where you're at, right? So the end target is always the same. So. Patrick, thank you for joining us Voice the Occupier podcast. We appreciate it and thank you very much.

It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much, Adam. Thank you. And thanks to all for listening. We'll be back with another episode soon.