Voice of the Occupier: Allison English

The latest instalment of The Voice of the Occupier, our monthly podcast that dives deep into the world of corporate real estate through the eyes of those who truly inhabit it, is now available. The podcast series explores the most pressing challenges facing occupiers today, from data integration and wellbeing to the ever evolving dynamics of the workplace.

This episode marks a special moment for The Voice of the Occupier podcast as it is Adam Hoy’s final episode as host. Over the past couple of years, Adam has been the guiding voice behind the podcast, helping to shape meaningful conversations and bringing real occupier perspectives to the forefront. We would like to extend a huge thank you to Adam for his energy, insight and commitment throughout his time as host.

It is a fitting and exciting handover episode as Adam speaks with our new host, Allison English, Co Founder at Aéto Strategy, to discuss the future of the podcast and what lies ahead.

Tune in to celebrate the journey so far and the next chapter ahead.

Thanks for listening. Follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram.

Transcript

 Introduction

Welcome to the Voice of the Occupier, the podcast from the UK Chapter of CoreNet that dives deep into the world of commercial real estate from the perspective of those who truly inhabited. I'm your host, Adam Hoy, and I'll bring you insightful conversations with industry leaders, innovators and visionaries.

Shedding light on the challenges and opportunities facing occupiers today. Let's get started.

Hi everybody. Welcome to another episode of The Voice of the Occupier. Brought to you by the UK chapter of CoreNet Global. I'm Adam Hoy here with you today. I've got a very special guest it's actually a bittersweet episode for myself. This is actually my last episode of Voice of the Occupier. It's been a great two years coming to you every month.

And I'm here today with Alison English. Co-founder of Aeto and she'll be talking to you a little bit about the podcast and how it's gonna be taken forward, but extremely glad to have you with us here today, Allison. Oh, thanks Adam. I'm delighted to be here and so excited for this opportunity.

Yes. Yeah. Like I said, it's been a great two years. We've had a lot of fun on this podcast, and I'm really looking forward to what you do with it going into the future. But before we do that, I'd love to talk to you a little bit today about what you are seeing in the industry. As a lot of our listeners are interested in multiple different views of the industry and what's going on, 

Obviously you, you've, you have a very certain niche, I would say in the industry. Your experience with Leaseman and the work that you've been doing can you talk a little bit about your company and kind of what you're doing now?

Absolutely. So as you mentioned, I was at Leesman for six years.

And the new business that Tim Oldman and I are running ATO is this, it's a spinoff from Lisa. And essentially in our last couple of years there, more and more organizations were coming to us and saying. This data is amazing. It's great to understand employee experience. Can you help us understand what it means when we start to look at other data?

Can you do a bit more, a deeper investigation into that data? And we quietly spun up a little team to do that. But as more and more clients came to us, became more and more clear that it was, it's something distinct and it started to look like consulting, which at least then we always said was a line.

Line we work at across. But with the sanction of the new ownership, Tim and I were able to take that small team with us and start Aeto. We carried on doing bits of analysis. So we were looking at experience data, but starting to also look at that alongside things like badge rates and sensor data video conferencing data.

Because what we were seeing and what clients were telling us is as more and more data became available to them. They actually do less what to do with it. It didn't actually help give any clarity. It brought more confusion. So what we've started to do is actually get to the heart of what the data says, find those needles in those data haystacks and help organizations figure out how to make decisions based on some of the insights they have, as well as some kind of strategic advisory support as on that, on top of that.

Data Challenges and Solutions

Yeah, that's interesting. I think those of us that have been in the industry for a while, the amount of data that we're now seeing with all of those tools definitely is becoming overwhelming. Might be a little bit much because we always can use data, but it's the question of what you do with it, I think is always something that leaders probably struggle.

Might be a little bit too much, but they probably ask questions about what they can do with. So what kind of insights are you seeing in, in some of the work that you're doing? Vast array of different insights. And a lot of it depends on different clients. So in some cases we're using data to derive experienced personas.

This isn't Bob is 45 and works in marketing and has two kids or any of that sense. It's about who are their users of a space based on the data we have about them, and then what are their needs within space. So being able to categorize that and understand exactly what tools they need in the workplace what's gonna.

Bring about a better experience for them. How can you remove friction points? And then actually starting to audit floor plans to understand from a data-driven standpoint, how can the experience be better in a space before it's even been refitted or designed before people are actually using that space.

So some of the insights are, some of the basics are being missed, if I'm honest. A lot of the stuff that I think designers would feel like is design 1 0 1, and certainly buyers are seeing. That the attention is not being paid to what employees really need. And I think a lot of the data and insights that we have, they're not being fed back to designers to design better spaces.

So that's one of the things we're trying to help them do. Organizations are bringing us in to support, support those designers and bring about a better space for the occupier. So I'd say that's one of the insight. The other is that within organizations. And I think any, all occupiers would probably agree with this.

The data is sitting in different. Camps. So tech's gonna have some of it. HR is gonna have some of it. But as the expectation for tech and people and real estate is to start working more closely together, someone's gotta break down those silos to bring all of that together. And our clients are having challenges with that.

So in, in some cases, we're helping them not necessarily break down those internal. Barriers. But once they can do that, start to try and visualize what does a platform look like that might bring all of that data together so you can start getting insights out of it. 'cause the data has the potential to be amazing.

But again, if it's not used, or if you aren't able to overlay it and see what the picture is actually telling you, then it can become meaningless. Yeah, that's interesting. I think, maybe your latter point first, the work between HR tech and real estate obviously has been a key for a number of years.

But you're right, a lot of this data does sit in different places and different organizations. So bringing it together definitely is something that is something that's needed. And until you get that all into the same place, it's tough to make well-rounded decisions across people. And your first point around.

Getting what people actually think back to the rights, either de designer or the rights player within within the structure. I think is a very interesting one. One of the things I've noticed over the years is that we've got a lot of really smart people in the corporate real estate industry and we do a lot of really cool things, but there's times where.

We miss some of the easy things that people want or need within the spaces that we're creating. And one of the things I've always said to teams over the years is remember that we're designing for the people that are gonna be in this building. It'll be great to show others what we've done here, but.

Unless the people in the building are happy and productive in the work environment we've created, then the external view of it is not as important. So it's interesting to see that that you're designing a way to get that actual input back into the design. Yeah we're certainly trying to, and I think more clients are also tuning into that, trying to almost change the procurement process for how design is even bought.

By thinking, just thinking differently about that. We're working with some clients on. What we're calling design red lines. So stuff that should never happen in a space. So organizations are delivering their space and it's authentically theirs. It's not, okay, we're hearing the industry talk about collaboration.

Let's like max out on collaboration. Okay, what do you, what does collaboration look like to your organization? And how do you, is it in person? Is it virtual? What does the data say? What are your people telling you? And then how do you then set up spaces that support and facilitate that? Yeah.

Yeah. Huge need for it. I think making sure that people that are in the building feel that it's a productive building for them. That's really what we're doing every day. And if if we're not doing that's certainly important. 

Post-COVID Workplace Challenges

Are there any specific challenges you're hearing from clients, specific watch points?

Anything that, that you're hearing? Now, maybe it's the same as it was post COVID, but are you seeing anything now that we're a few years away from it? I think some of the challenges we're still hearing it's not I think thankfully RTO has been largely put to bed, but organizations are having to define more so than ever before, the purpose of the office.

Employees in general have more choice than they did prior. Even if there is some sort of mandate in place, by and large employee. There's more flexibility than there was prior, and the office through the end can't necessarily be everything to every person. So instead of just providing a space, because that was something that you had to do as an organization, it's about providing a purposeful, intentional space.

So I'd say that's something that's still clients are struggling with. It's one of the things that we're. We're helping clients with is figuring out, again, what is it? When we talk about that authentic version of an organization, how then does the office reflect that? And not necessarily from an aesthetic standpoint, but how will you know it's your space when your employees are in it?

Or if you took all the branding off, how would you know it's yours? So I think that's still a challenge that organizations are wrestling with. And some of that comes with, large corporates having legacy portfolios and then obviously there's a huge cost, there's a huge investment to try and keep up with ever-changing technology and how the workplace really has changed.

That's a continued struggle. Interesting how you put it. If you take your branding off, would you recognize it as the, is that your enterprise's space? I think that is definitely something that, that's important to focus on. 

Health and Wellbeing

Health and wellbeing have definitely been a few things that the industry has shifted towards coming outta COVID.

I think we were starting to angle that way prior to COVID, but going in and then out of, there's a lot of talk about quality versus quantity. And when we go to quality space, health and wellness, obviously a big part of that. A lot of buildings around the world really focusing on wellness different organizations.

Popping up to to judge the health and wellbeing of your building. So definitely a big focus. How are you seeing that come into some of the data that, that you've been seeing? So I think health and wellbeing is a fundamental component of the employee experience and every facet of the work we're diving into deals with employee experience.

So whether I'd say the organizations we're talking to are looking at it explicitly or implicitly because it's part of employee experience, as you said. It's definitely become a bigger focus. I think there's more you can get out of the data now to understand. More about health and wellbeing.

So some of that can come from experience data, like the Leaseman data organizations who are looking at Zoom metadata, for instance, can start to track some of those changes. Changes in employee behavior that might be indicators to that. So again, I think it's about harnessing and leveraging data to understand what are some of the, what are you trying to achieve from a health and wellbeing and an employee experience standpoint?

And then how are you able to use that data to see if things are starting to drift or if they're not heading in the direction you want them to be heading in. Yeah, so it's interesting I think from a, from an occupier perspective, the conversation around wellness and. Healthy buildings is definitely grown and it's more recognized by the C-suite now is something that's more essential.

And I think, years ago it was, those were nice to have type things where if you could do something within the building that. Promoted health and wellbeing. That was a nice to have. But now I think we're seeing them become more must have type design elements, which I think is essential.

C-Suite Engagement and Real Estate

So one of the things that I've always found interesting in talking to different occupiers and people in the industry is, their view as to how different C-suites are seeing. Those types of elements come into design and into the way of working. So in your seat, are you seeing, how are you seeing C-Suites kind of respond to new types of space that are being developed?

I think I. Overall in the industry, there's a positive trend towards the C sweeping way more involved from an experienced standpoint. And one of those changes is the shift in a lot of cases from the real estate team sitting maybe in a cost in a, in the finance. Arm of the business and moving under people.

And I think that move or being, I guess parallel with people, but usually they're sitting from what we're seeing sitting under the chief people officer. I think that move in and of its in and of itself speaks to a perspective shift from, okay, this is a cost we have to bear to.

This is something, this is an investment in our people. How do we make it stand out? How can it be a benefit to them? How can it positively impact health and wellbeing? Typically it's, one of the largest costs on a p and l is usually right after people. So with those kind of things sitting together.

I think it sets organizations up for success in delivering all of the values real estate can bring, not only to the organization and helping it, helping people achieve, helping the organization achieve its business outcomes, but then helping the people who work within that organization, who are using those spaces have a great day at work, but also succeed in what they're there to do.

It makes sense. I think you're right. If you look around the, I think traditionally corporate real estate was sitting in the finance group, and I've seen it sit in a number of different places. Supply chain operations, chief admin type roles. Definitely more groups sitting underneath hr, which I think is probably where it should be as a people, core people activity and group that's really focused on.

The wellbeing and the productivity and of the people that come in every day. One of the things that, that I talk about with different teams is you put the employee at the center and then you've figure out everything else, right? Whether it's the real estate, the tech any of the services around the employee.

The employee doesn't really care who's delivering these different things to them, right? It's they want to come in or they want to work from wherever, and they want to be productive. And we need to make sure that the support functions that we have are supporting it. I'm wondering, as you're working with teams that maybe go up into different groups, are there different metrics you look at or different bits of data depending on where corporate real estate does it shape how you are working with clients in terms of the stories that you're trying to build?

It does. It certainly shapes the narrative because the finance side is all about. How does this either save us money or how does this help us make more money? The people side is much more focused on the people aspect. There's obviously a. There's always a financial component to it, but absolutely the narrative between those groups is really different.

Both groups see that in some cases, both groups can see the value in spending money on space to make it better. The clients working with us see that value that's what they're, that's what they're looking for. But no one has limitless budgets. So it's all about, I think one of the things we're helping clients do is figure out where that spend should be to maximize.

The output, what is, what are you really trying to achieve? And that's not from a real estate perspective, it's not about getting a certain number of it's, it's not densification, right? It's not the cost per person. It's about what is the business trying to achieve and then how can your space help enable that and help facilitate that.

So regardless of where real estate sits, I think if you can help an organization, if you can help the occupier try and answer those questions and then frame it in a way that finance gets it and people gets it. I think you're gonna win. Yeah, that's a great way to put it. I think from a capability standpoint the corporate real estate industry one of the benefits of coming into these different groups is be having to develop skill sets in different areas.

The financial piece obviously. Whether the team reports into the finance group or not, we need to have that financial acumen to be able to tell the story. Obviously the softer side, the more the more experienced elements we have to create that visual. And I like how you said it. We need to identify what the purpose of the space is and how do we enable that to, to maximize the value back to the enterprise.

And I think that's why we're here every day. So really well put. 

Advice for Young Leaders

One of the things that CoreNet tries to do, and I think does very well, and I'll say this about the UK chapter, I think the young leaders in the UK are one of the best groups of young leaders in the world. And I've been a part of a couple different groups.

I think as we focus on the next generation of leaders in corporate real estate, people coming into to CoreNet, I think it's a great industry to be in. I've been in it for a long time and I'm always. Very supportive and I promote it, where I can with people that are either at the beginning of their careers or just coming into it.

If you had the chance to speak with some young leaders as part of CoreNet or really wherever what kind of advice or what kind of pep talk would you give about the corporate real estate industry and why those young leaders should be in this industry and create a career within it?

There are a couple of things. First, it's incredibly dynamic. There are, you can be on the occupier side, you can be on the supplier side, but within either of those areas or anywhere in between, there are a tremendous number. There's such a variety of different roles in different. Things that you can do and different skills you can pick up.

And I think even just trying to piece together and understand how different organizations work and what they do, it's challenging. It's challenging, I think to, I was new to this industry when I joined Leman, so I can say as a non young leader, I didn't qualify when I joined Leman. But as someone new to the industry trying to understand the different terminologies and the acronyms and all industries have that can seem overwhelming, but everybody is incredibly.

Giving that I found any just ask questions and people will answer them and everyone. In general likes to talk about themselves and what they're doing. So I think the more events you go to CoreNet and host an incredible variety of events with great speakers. And I've never gone to one where anyone's been shy to share what they're doing, share their experience.

So I think the more you can get out there and ask people what they're doing and when they tell you what they're doing and you don't know what that is, and the follow up question is great, tell me more about that. 'cause you don't know, but I think not being afraid. To ask and leverage the knowledge of everybody else in the network that like, it's an opportunity that absolutely can't be missed.

I think the other thing from a young leader standpoint is I think just being open to what, I don't know where your career in general might take you. I had never considered a career in corporate real estate and frankly didn't really even understand, 1% of what it was prior to joining leaseman.

But once I did and I got into. Into it more. I reflected back on the roles that I had prior. Working with Unilever was a client of mine before and I traveled to their offices all over the world. So I actually consumed and understood workplace in a way that I didn't formally recognize, but had a background in working with a number of different clients, the same caliber in seeing the differences in their space and how they worked and how they delivered them.

So I'd also say you probably know more than you think. That you do. So don't underestimate if you came from outside of the industry. And even if you haven't, if wherever you've studied, whatever experiences you have, all of that will be hugely valuable as you carry on in a career in corporate real estate or anywhere else.

Yeah, that's really good advice. I think a couple cool things about the industry is, if you sit within a corporate real estate organization, usually have a good view into what the company does, right? So it's a good learning ground for whatever industry the enterprise you're supporting is in, which I think has always been a cool thing to be able to learn business through the lens of corporate real estate, which has been really good.

I think the other thing is. The amount of varied responsibilities you have within the area and the opportunities you get across the board. I think corporate real estate is definitely one of those places where you can vary your career in different areas and agree, I think CoreNets very welcoming the UK chapter, lots of events, lots of people that are willing to talk, and I think it's a great, it's a great learning ground for anybody coming into.

A corporate environment, whether that be in an occupier or a service provider or really wherever in the industry. Fully agree. Allison, listen, thank you for the time today. I'm excited to, to hear what you do with the podcast series. I think we've done it for a couple years now.

I'm extremely happy with what, what we've created and some of the conversations that we've had. I think it's just the very beginning and I'm looking forward to where you take it. And I wish you well with everything. Thank you, Adam. Thanks for having me. Thanks for all you've done for the CoreNet UK chapter and obviously everything you've done getting this podcast up and running.

So I'm super excited and look forward to staying connected on it. Thank you and thanks to everybody for listening today. Thanks for having me as the the host on the podcast. Really looking forward to hearing the next podcast with Alison as your host. Thank you everybody.