Financial Opportunities Uncovered: A Keeler & Nadler Family Wealth Podcast

Modern solutions for the inevitable need of long-term care

• Andy Keeler

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The way we think about long-term care needs a radical reimagining. Moving beyond the antiquated image of hospital-green hallways and institutional settings, our expert guests Sherlyn Swindell of Plus Financial Network and Lisa Harder of Securian Financial help reframe this inevitable life phase as an event rather than a place.

"We all are going to need care," Sherlyn explains, helping listeners understand that long-term care encompasses everything from occasional help with household tasks to full nursing care. What matters most isn't where you receive care but maintaining the freedom to choose how and where you want to live when you need assistance.

The financial landscape for funding this care has evolved dramatically. Traditional long-term care policies operated on a frustrating "use it or lose it" model with ever-increasing premiums. Today's hybrid policies offer revolutionary improvements: guaranteed benefits, one-time premium options, cash indemnity payments rather than complicated reimbursements, and even return of premium features.

Andy and his guests also breakdown just how these policies work, with Lisa explaining the qualification process (inability to perform two daily living activities or having severe cognitive impairment) and the flexibility of receiving cash benefits you can use however you choose. The 90-day calendar elimination period aligns perfectly with Medicare's typical 100-day coverage, creating a seamless transition to long-term care benefits when needed.

Perhaps most compelling is how these policies protect your legacy. Rather than potentially selling cherished family properties or depleting inheritance funds, these policies create dedicated resources that keep your estate intact. And unlike traditional policies, if you never need care, your premiums aren't lost—they return to your beneficiaries, often with interest.    This is a needed discussion with perhaps multiple members of your family and as always, Keeler and Nadler is proud to provide these valuable insights not just to our clients but to everyone.  

The opinions expressed in this program are for general informational purposes only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations.

It is only intended to provide education about finance, tax, retirement and related planning topics. To determine which investments or strategies may be appropriate for you, consult your financial, tax or legal advisor prior to implementing. Any past performance discussed during this program is no guarantee of future results.

Any indices referenced for comparison are unmanaged and cannot be invested into directly. As always please remember investing involves risk and possible loss of principal capital; please seek advice from a licensed professional.

Keeler & Nadler Family Wealth is a registered investment adviser. Advisory services are only offered to clients or prospective clients where Keeler & Nadler Family Wealth and its representatives are properly licensed or exempt from licensure. No advice may be rendered by Keeler & Nadler Family Wealth unless a client service agreement is in place.


Andy Keeler:

Chances are you or someone you know will need long-term care insurance at some point. How will you pay for long-term care? While most everyone would prefer to live out their final years in comfort of their own home, chances are pretty good that at some point you may either need some help at home or you may need to move into assisted living or even skilled nursing care. So how do you pay for it? Today, on Financial Opportunities Uncovered, we are joined by two experts on the subject: Sherlyn Swindell of Plus Financial Network and Lisa Harder of Securian, which is a provider of long-term care insurance products. Ladies, thank you for joining us.

Sherlyn Swindell:

Thanks so much for having me. Yes, thank you, Andy.

Andy Keeler:

So, as I said at the outset, no one really plans or wants to go into a nursing home. Some call it a death sentence, thinking of it as a sterile, institutional living environment. I think of this kind of hospital green, people kind of trolling the hallways, kind of in a daze, kind of solitary confinement to some extent. The questions I'd like to answer today is is insurance warranted? So if a client is trying to plan ahead and they want to make sure that they have the resources in place to cover either assisted living or long-term care in a skilled facility, is it warranted? And what I find is that there are really three different, I guess, parameters or categories that I would put clients in.

Andy Keeler:

Some folks just don't have the financial resources to afford long-term care, whether it's the monthly premium as a drag on their monthly expenses, or they don't have the, I guess, a lump sum $150,000 or $200,000 to put down on one of the newer kinds of long-term care. Then you have the folks that are sort of in the middle. They're that million to five million type net worth household. They can afford to pay the premiums or do a one pay. And then there are the folks that have so much money they really don't need to purchase insurance. They simply self-insure. Is that kind of what you guys use as a gauge when you're talking to prospective clients?

Sherlyn Swindell:

You have explained exactly what many people think. It's very easy for all of us to get a picture of something so. Long-term care is most times associated with brick and mortar. It is associated with a nursing home. You said it yourself. Picture the green hallways, the doldrum, the doldrums that you know, people strolling around.

Sherlyn Swindell:

It is important for people to to redirect their thinking and think of long term care as an event versus a place. We want people to stop thinking about the brick and mortar because, realistically, long-term care is inevitable. In other words, we all are going to need care. It is no matter what that looks like and that will look different for many. So, for instance, I may have relatives close by that maybe can come in twice a week and help me out and I get to stay at home. Or maybe I'm going to have someone come in once a week and do this, this and this for me. Or maybe I'm going to ultimately live with other relatives and ultimately I may prefer to be in assisted living, where it's a facility, there's a community of people and that's what I feel comfortable with, because I enjoy other people's company.

Andy Keeler:

That's a really good point. I think the first point you made is a lot of people are basing their images of long-term care or the need for long-term care on that skilled nursing facility the brick and mortar when it's really. It's a phase, it's not a place, and that phase can take many different shapes. It could be home care, it could be assisted living, it could be independent living on the grounds of a continuing care community, it could be, unfortunately, skilled nursing or memory care. But it's really reimagining what we think. Is that really dreary, depressing place? And think of that phase in our life when we will need some sort of assistance. Is that accurate?

Sherlyn Swindell:

Exactly. It's inevitable. We will all need care. We will come to a season in our lives where we will need care. What that care looks like could vary from A to Z, and so the long-term care policy gives us the flexibility and the freedom to choose whichever one we want and how we want that to look like.

Sherlyn Swindell:

It takes away the idea that we are forced to do one thing when we want to do another and the next thing I'll say when you gave the three categories as you put it, you know of people how they may, you know where they may be now and what that may look like, and then Lisa can talk more about the actual policy and what that may look like from you know back to like the nursing home and the flexibility that Securian provides. Oftentimes people will think let's start with your top category as far as people who may not think that they can afford the long-term care premium. Thank goodness, securian and long-term care in general, the hybrid products like they stand today. They offer premium options that work for many, whether it's a single premium or if that doesn't work for some, because of financial responsibilities at this time in their lives. Maybe they're trying to, you know, finish putting kids through college, or maybe they just did that, but you know they're trying to finish paying off a house. There are premium options in long-term care that provide affordable premiums.

Andy Keeler:

That didn't necessarily exist 10 years ago and certainly not in the 70s and 80s, when you had celebrities pitching long-term care insurance as a more or less a monthly premium. And, lisa, you're the expert. We'll get to you in a second. I want to kind of understand what the landscape of these policies and products is today, but to give our listeners a little background, back in the say the 60s and 70s, when folks were thinking ahead to the skilled nursing facilities, insurance companies like Genworth and others came out with these policies that you would pay a monthly premium more or less from whenever you bought the policy, typically until you entered the facility, and then maybe there was a waiver of premium once you entered the facility.

Andy Keeler:

But the problem with those was really two main things and I can get into more detail on that later.

Andy Keeler:

But the first one is you're paying that premium every month or every quarter for years and years and years and you could, for example, die in a car accident and there was no return of premium.

Andy Keeler:

You could die in your home without ever needing long-term care and it was a use-it, lose it proposition. And then the second problem that was compounded really by a lot of competition and companies sort of I don't want to say undermine each other, but basically trying to sell the most policies for the lowest possible premiums and very low interest rates in the bond market, which is what these insurance companies invested in, has led a lot of owners of what were considered Cadillac policies that provided a $300 daily benefit with three or 5% inflation riders after 90 days elimination period or waiting period for even life, and now they're getting notices could be yearly asking for them to either pay a higher premium to keep the same benefits or reduce their benefits, and so a lot of folks have been soured on those traditional policies, and so, as a result of that, companies like Securian have come out with policies. Sherilyn used the term hybrid, hybrid policies that are very different from those conventional long-term policies. So, Lisa, can you kind of enlighten us as to what the current marketplace looks like?

Lisa Harder :

Of course. So Sherilyn was absolutely correct. You know there's a lot of different needs for people when they're needing care. I think most people are going to start out in the home when they are needing care and with our hybrid policies, it's a cash indemnity benefit the client is receiving when they go on claim.

Andy Keeler:

Explain that versus the reimbursement of old policies. The old policies basically reimbursed the claimant or the insured for costs they incurred, with proof that they incurred those costs right with proof that they incurred those costs right. Versus what you're talking about now is an indemnity policy. What does that mean?

Lisa Harder :

So with most long-term care policies it's going to be the client is unable to do two of six activities of daily living, which is, you know, eating, bathing, dressing, toileting, transferring and so forth. So when a client is unable to do two of the six activities of daily living or suffers from a severe cognitive impairment and when I say severe cognitive impairment, somebody might get diagnosed with the onset of Alzheimer's or dementia and be able to function for a number of years before it becomes severe and they're unable to manage on their own a danger to themselves being left alone or to others.

Lisa Harder :

So, that's when they actually qualify for claim. But when that happens, the difference between the indemnity and the reimbursement is when you're unable to do 206 ADLs or you have a severe cognitive impairment, an indemnity policy is going to pay a cash benefit to you. A reimbursement policy you have to submit receipts to get those benefit dollars submitted to you.

Andy Keeler:

The fact that somebody has a cognitive impairment and or maybe they don't have a cognitive impairment but they're just weak and they're not eating they don't have the wherewithal to document the costs and file the claim in the first place. So at the end I want to talk a little bit about the work that relatives powers of attorney can have in helping their parents or the insureds actually file a claim, but we'll talk about that at the end.

Sherlyn Swindell:

Andy, if I could just add one thing to that idea.

Sherlyn Swindell:

So back to you know everyone's care will look different and you know our caregiver, whether that's a friend, a relative, regardless. Some people will be put in a position where maybe that caregiver isn't as, maybe as frugal with money as you know, as they wanted and so having the or maybe not as organized in their mind you know, to take care of them when it comes to a financial standpoint, not from a caregiving. It offers the insured the ability that they're going to get the payment from Securian on their long-term care policy, regardless of their caregiver.

Andy Keeler:

That's very good, like my mom had I would have called it a Cadillac policy, had, I want to say, $350,000 lifetime benefit, but it was reimbursement. And so there's something with all policies called an elimination period, which means that you have to be receiving care for a period of time often 90 days before the insurance company starts reimbursing or paying you back. And the catch there is that if someone is starting with in-home care two days a week, it could be a year before they hit 90 days because they're only getting two days in a week. So there's a little bit. I don't want to say it's a trap or a misconception, but people need to be aware. And this is where tracking is. It's incumbent on the relatives to if they are getting in-home care to be documenting okay, I've got two days, then I've got four and for them to be contacting that reimbursement insurance company to know when that company should start kicking money back to grandma's or mom's checking account. Right.

Andy Keeler:

But with the newer policies, with indemnity, let's say, you do qualify. You can't meet the two activities of daily living or you have a cognitive impairment, a permanent cognitive impairment. You've reached the 90 days. You're now getting a check or, in today's day and age, a direct deposit into your checking account Based on products that I've looked at some of them. Once that's triggered, it pays until the end of the benefit period, so it could be two years, three years. It's not like it starts and stops. Is that accurate or is that just dependent on the policy?

Lisa Harder :

It's dependent upon the policy. So most policies today have a recertification process, which is an IRS certification that needs to happen each and every year. So I can talk to the policy Securian has and once the claim starts it'll pay out a cash benefit to the client for 12 months.

Lisa Harder :

We have a concierge care management program that the client can use for the life of the policy and a care manager is assigned to that individual and that care manager will work with the client, the client's caregiver, whoever, the power of attorney executor, whoever to continue on with that certification process and all it really is is somebody saying, yes, you know, mom still needs care. Nothing has changed and the benefit continues for the client, but it is an IRS certification every 12 months with most long-term care policies, whether they're indemnity or reimbursement.

Andy Keeler:

Okay. So I'm going to back up again to the older style policies and then I want to try to get a feel for how a new policy could play out using real numbers. So the older traditional policies. Let's say somebody took it out at age 50 and they paid a monthly premium of, I don't know, two or $300 a month. Every single month they hit, you know, 75 and they go into a nursing home. I guess that's not typical, but let's say they went directly into a nursing home and they're receiving care, obviously every day because they're living there. And so then that traditional policy after 90 days often it could be 60, could be more, but usually it's 90 days. After 90 days, that traditional policy they want to see what the skilled nursing facility is charging that patient for the care and they reimburse accordingly back into that insured's checking account.

Andy Keeler:

And that continues until, typically until either the person gets sent home, but if they're in skilled nursing, you know average stay is a year and a half or two and then they pass on.

Andy Keeler:

So the policy pays to the end of the benefit period and it's it's done. But, as I said, if a person died in a car accident, died of a heart attack at home, that old policy, all of the premiums paid over the life of the contract would be forfeited. And it's likely that in the past five years that insured got notices asking for a higher premium or reduction in benefits because the insurance companies found that they just couldn't deliver on the promises that they made. And it was in the fine print in the contract that they could do that. So you know it wasn't necessarily illegal, but it was definitely not what most of the buyers of those policies either expected or certainly wanted. So the landscape has changed and now we have these policies where you could pay one premium, you could pay what's called 10 pay, make 10 premiums, but and a benefit of that, before you jump in and explain exactly how they work, would be, once you pay, that you're done.

Lisa Harder :

It's a guaranteed benefit.

Andy Keeler:

Yeah, that's a beautiful thing, it's non-cancellable. The ones that I've looked at are single pay, where a client says I've got $150,000. Let's just get this done and let it. It'd be like paying for a burial plot or something they just want to be done with it. It'd be like paying for a burial plot or something they just want to be done with it. So they take $150,000. They plunk it into this hybrid policy. What happens next?

Lisa Harder :

So if somebody's doing that, it is a guaranteed benefit. They paid their premium, everything is guaranteed. So what's going to be guaranteed is everything they have on their policy and their illustration, there is that 90 calendar day with our products. So, getting back to your other point where somebody might receive two days of care a week some are calendar days and others are claim days. I think the majority of long-term care carriers now have calendar days. So you're going to get that 90 calendar day and generally Medicare is going to cover the first 100 days for individuals. So that's why insurance companies only have that 90-day elimination period.

Lisa Harder :

It is a guaranteed benefit for somebody who's paid that single premium and whatever age they go on, claim is that amount that they'll get each and every year. Now, with with our product, they could take less than that and extend out the benefit duration longer if they wanted to Say most people are going to start receiving care in the home. Their spouse or a son or daughter might start helping out around the house with laundry, shopping, cleaning, whatever you need. But that cash indemnity benefit is nice because it provides that flexibility for paying your son or daughter on the missed hours that you know they're missing out on from work, or even if it means, you know, paying the kid down the street to help with lawn care or snow removal.

Lisa Harder :

We don't care how you're spending that cash benefit.

Andy Keeler:

You could throw it in the bank, you can do whatever you want with it Exactly, and you know, talking about the notion that some people may not take the whole benefit, I like clients to understand that there are certain components of their retirement income plan that aren't going to change. Whether they're in skilled nursing, they're in assisted living, they're in independent living or they're at home, they will receive their social security benefits, their pension benefits, and so if the total cost of, say, skilled nursing is maybe $130,000 a year, it's not like you need to ensure 100% of that need. You may only need to cover half of it or a third of it. And if the say pensions and social security or required minimum distributions from IRAs are enough, you may not even need the full monthly or daily benefit provided by the policy. So that's why somebody would say you know what, I don't need it all.

Sherlyn Swindell:

Andy, if I could just add something there with the design of the policy. While we're talking about premium options and how many benefits come with various, you know things to choose from. Let me also add that many people don't realize that. Let's just take Securian, for example I can start out with, regardless of the mode, the way it's being paid, whether it's a single pay or doesn't matter the mode. The moment my policy starts, on day one, my long-term care monthly benefit could be, let's just say, $5,000 a month for care.

Sherlyn Swindell:

The wonderful thing about the design with these hybrid products is that if the insured chooses to add different things like compound inflation protection, simple inflation protection, and that you know that can just vary, you know again, it's their choice.

Sherlyn Swindell:

It all, you know, comes around the cost of the premium.

Sherlyn Swindell:

But the wonderful thing is and I'm just using this for an example, not to the number, but let's say that they have $5,000 a month of a long-term care benefit from a monthly standpoint, day one of their policy, adding compound inflation or simple inflation, and that you know again, it depends on do they want their coverage for four years? Do they want it for six years? They could have 3% compound or 3% simple inflation protection by the time they're age 85, that monthly benefit could easily double to cover what they may need to keep up with the cost of inflation, just like it's meant to do. And so, while all of those other sources of income are obviously going to help and the long-term care policy is meant to assist in covering their care that is inevitable the design of the policy is always going to grow with the needs to keep up with the inflation rising health care costs, and so they have that peace of mind that you know, down the road, their protection, their guaranteed policy, is going to cover their needs.

Andy Keeler:

And I mentioned several times. With the traditional policies it was use it or lose it. So if you never made a claim, all of those premiums would be forfeited. How do these hybrid policies work? If somebody, let's say somebody, paid a $150,000 premium, single pay, and they pass away two years later without ever needing care, what happens to that money?

Lisa Harder :

So the great thing about policies today is they do provide a death benefit. So if you don't use your benefit, you will get a death benefit and it's generally going to be more than what you paid in for that premium. So, depending on age and sex, women are a little bit more expensive for long term care because we live longer and generally have more comorbidities than men do. But say you're 50 years old and you put in $150,000 of a single pay premium, your death benefit might be $180,000.

Lisa Harder :

That you're going to get Technically your beneficiaries are going to get it if you pass away prior to using any long-term care.

Lisa Harder :

Great. The flip side to that is, if they use every penny like the policy is intended to do, it is a long-term care policy set up to cover their cost. You know, for care there is a guaranteed minimum death benefit that would go to the beneficiaries, usually a small percentage of you know what the policy, you know the face amount, but it is still there as a guaranteed death benefit. It could be a minimum of $10,000.

Lisa Harder :

It could be, you know $12,000, but the idea is there's still something that does go to the beneficiaries and so kind of digging deeper in the scenario.

Andy Keeler:

Somebody puts in $150,000 and they're let's say that they're guaranteed. In my experience, $150,000 premium might get $230,000 in long-term care credit, if you will. So there's, you know, that's the sort of lifetime benefit of that policy and if they passed away, they again they put in 150, if they passed away five years later without drawing on the policy, without making a claim, they're going to get that 150 back plus some interest that was accrued on that. If they've made a claim, my understanding is the death benefit is reduced pro rata from the benefits paid. So if they're getting $6,000 a month, the death benefit at that point starts decreasing.

Andy Keeler:

But the point you just made, sherilyn, is that some of these policies, even still, even if the $230,000 lifetime benefit is completely exhausted, there may be an additional death benefit. That was kind of built in and no traditional policy that I'm aware of had that provision and that covers burial. So it does kind of make sense. The numbers we're throwing around here are purely hypothetical and for those that hear, well, I'm only getting $6,000 a month from this thing. That's only $72,000 per year and skilled nursing is 130. Where's the rest of the money going to come from. As I said earlier, you're probably getting social security, pensions and other things, so don't think that you need to lean on these things for 100% of the cost.

Sherlyn Swindell:

Well, and ultimately, we want the insured to think about this. Many people. At the beginning you had mentioned three different categories and maybe for those who you know, oh, I've got money put back, I've been saving, I'm all set, I'm good to go. You know, regardless of their financial status, do we ever want to be put in a position? And everyone can answer this on their own? They know their own situation. But as much as we think, and kudos to those who have done the hard work and saved and have all of that money put back. You know, of course they deserve pats on the back. But ultimately, with the rising cost of health care, with inflation as we've seen it, I mean, whoever thought we'd pay, you know like the joke, of course, is, you know, the price of eggs but you know who thought we would pay the price of eggs that we've paid, you know, in the last, you know four years kind of idea.

Sherlyn Swindell:

And so rising healthcare is going to happen, it's inevitable. But ultimately I always ask my clients even though you've saved and you've done a wonderful job, do you really want it to come down to a question of I'm going to have to sell the second home that has been in my family for 100 years and I wanted to leave it to my grandchildren, and now I'm going to have to sell it and use the proceeds to cover the cost for my care. And so, regardless of you know, just think of what a great chunk these long-term care policies take out of having to do that and totally self-insuring for long-term care costs.

Andy Keeler:

That's a really great point. I mentioned at the very beginning the importance of having someone to advocate on the insured's behalf. So in the case of my mother, I was her financial planner, so I was named her financial power. I was granted financial power of attorney. We sent the financial power of attorney over to the insurance company the long-term care insurance company probably two to three years before her health started to decline, and the purpose of that was so that when her health did decline and she was unable to call the 800 number and go through all of the steps to file a claim and understand in that particular case you know how she would meet that 90 day elimination period I could do that on her behalf. And I can tell you that, again, this was a traditional policy and so hopefully things have improved a bit.

Andy Keeler:

But even with the hybrid policies, I think it's important that you have someone of sound mind that can act on the insured's behalf because a call needs to be made. They're not going to know through TSP that the insured is in a skilled nursing center or needs assisted living. It's often a relative that has to notify them of that and to make sure that the reimbursements occurred and it was a reimbursement policy. Uh occurred when they needed to occur and so you know I had a login to my mom's checking account so I could see activity and and those kinds of things, and I had to send them documentation of the costs to reimburse, including time for my brother. They did allow my brother to give some assistance but, as I recall, it was maybe at a discounted amount.

Andy Keeler:

But in any event, it's very important that if you are listening to this podcast and you are either an insured or a relative of an insured, that you know where the policy is, you know who's the, who's the insurance company, what's the hundred number, our powers of attorney up to date and have they been filed with that with that company, and then you need to run with the ball as soon as that insured needs needs help. You covered the nuances in elimination periods and the fact that those traditional policies were care days and the newer policies are calendar days, so you would have avoided one of the situations that we encountered with these where we had to wait. I think it was almost six months before my mom started to get reimbursed for her care. Any closing comments before we go?

Sherlyn Swindell:

The only closing comment that I would have is, again, this is a reality. I always tell people the cost of waiting until tomorrow is only going to get more expensive. Unfortunately, with each of us, the older we get when it comes to insurance, regardless of the type, we can anticipate that the premiums are going to reflect that. But our health is guaranteed today and we don't want to take that for granted. We all do. But, yes, we want to just plan ahead, like you said, as far as documents and so forth, but we just want to have everything prepared and take advantage of the good health that we have today to get those guaranteed policy premiums and just make sure that we have that peace of mind.

Andy Keeler:

The 1035, for listeners that don't know what that is, that's basically a tax-free rollover of one kind of insurance product for another and so, as Sherilyn mentioned, a 1035 exchange to a long-term care hybrid policy could be done from, say, an old annuity that isn't necessarily doing what you wanted it to do. Maybe it was an annuity that was intended to provide retirement income and you don't necessarily need the maybe paltry income that that income annuity was supposed to provide. It may come from a variable annuity or even a life insurance policy that's underperforming. So taxability I'm not a CPA and when I took the CFP exam the taxability of long-term care benefits always was kind of a stumper. So take me through. Let's say somebody takes a non-qualified annuity and 1035s it tax-free into a hybrid long-term care policy. There's obviously no tax there the money that comes out to provide the monthly benefit. How does that work? Let's say we've been using 6,000 a month, so 6,000 a month starts hitting their checking account. That's $72,000 in a year. Is that taxable?

Lisa Harder :

With the 1035, it needs to be a like-to-like product. So with an annuity you could 1035 it into a single premium immediate annuity to fund the secure care policy. Or if you're 1035ing a life policy into a secure care policy, which is a life product, you can't deduct the 1035 amount. But if you're doing a single or a multi-pay premium, there's a portion of those premiums that you're paying in. And the contracts that do have that tax deduction are the acceleration for long-term care agreement, the extension for long-term care agreement and the inflation protection. So those three things the premiums that you're paying in each and every year do have some tax benefits and it's age-based due to the IRS. Each and every year they'll change those amounts. So depending on your age, there's a certain amount that you can deduct from your taxes if you're itemizing each and every year.

Andy Keeler:

So sounds pretty complicated, but you're basically saying that the premiums that you pay may be tax deductible. The tax deductibility of those premiums would depend on the client's age. Obviously, if they're not itemizing or if the tax deduction from the long-term care doesn't get them over the standard deduction threshold, it's not relevant. But I think that's probably a surface enough conversation about that.

Lisa Harder :

I brought that up not to confuse listeners.

Andy Keeler:

No, no, no, it's fine.

Lisa Harder :

Just to stress the importance of beginning a conversation around long-term care opportunities, because obviously people don't know what they don't know and our place is to educate and present what opportunities they have and then they will look at what fits best for them.

Andy Keeler:

That makes sense. Sherilyn. Lisa, thanks for helping us understand these new options and, as always, we thank our listeners. Be sure to tune in next time when I talk about the physiological and psychological responses to online betting, as well as the math behind betting odds. I'm Andy Keeler, and this is Financial Opportunities Uncovered brought to you by Keeler and Nadler Family Wealth. If you have questions on anything you heard in this episode, find out more on our website, Keeler and Nadler. com, and if you have an idea for a future episode or questions about what you've heard, connect with us on LinkedIn.

Speaker 4:

The opinions expressed in this program are for general information purposes only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations. It is only intended to provide education about finance, tax, retirement and related planning topics. To determine which investment strategies are appropriate for you, consult your finance, tax or legal advisor prior to implementing. Any past performance discussed during this program is no guarantee of future results. Any indices referenced for comparison are unmanaged and cannot be invested into directly. Thank you and its representatives are property licensed or exempt from licensure. No advice may be rendered by Keeler and Nadler Family Wealth unless a client service agreement is in place.