E27 • Navigating Cultural Sensitivity Through Magical Realism • JASON JACOBS & DEVON DELMAR, dirs. of ‘Carissa’, Best Film Nom at the Venice Film Festival

Today’s episode features Devon Delmar, Jason Jacobs, and their feature film, “Carissa”, which just enjoyed its premiere at the Venice International Film Festival and was nominated for the Venice Horizon’s Award for Best Film. They are also joined by Producer Deidré Jantjies. Past inspirations include Benh Zeitlin’s ’Beasts of the Southern Wild’. 

The conversation delves into themes of community, cultural representation, and the challenges of storytelling on a tight budget. The filmmakers discuss their collaboration and process of crafting character arcs that reflect relatable struggles, all while navigating the complexities of cultural sensitivity. They reflect on the impact of their choices and the significance of casting non-actors to enhance realism. 

The discussion also touches on their unique editing process, the emotional connections that drive their storytelling, and how magical realism allows for deeper exploration of themes.

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Chapters

• 0:01 Past Present Feature, Hosted by Marcus Mizelle
• 0:19 Introducing Filmmakers Devon Delmar & Jason Jacobs, dirs. of 'Carissa' at Biennale
• 1:30 Producer Deidré Jantjies + The Collaboration Behind 'Carissa'
• 3:15 Exploring Magical Realism and Community
• 7:32 'Beasts of the Southern Wild' dir. by Benh Zeitlin
• 9:50 Character Development and Narrative Choices
• 12:21 The Impact of Budget on Storytelling
• 14:17 Casting Non-Actors and Authenticity
• 16:59 Navigating Cultural Sensitivity in Storytelling + Leaning into the Uncomfortable
• 22:12 Production Highlights and Challenges of 'Carissa'
• 24:16 Choosing What Kind of Film You Really Want to Make - Do it for Grandma
• 27:00 Editing and Collaboration in Post-Production

Transcript

Marcus Mizelle (00:02)

Welcome to the Past Present Feature podcast.

Marcus Mizelle (00:19)
Today's episode features Devin Delmar, Jason Jacobs, and their feature film Carissa, which just enjoyed its premiere at the Venice International Film Festival and was nominated for the Venice Horizons Award for Best Film. They're also joined by producer Diedre Gentigis.

Beasts of the Southern Wild. The conversation delves into themes of community, cultural representation,

and the challenges of storytelling on a tight The filmmakers discuss their collaboration and process of crafting character arcs that reflect relatable struggles, all while navigating the complexities of cultural sensitivity. They reflect on the impact of their choices and the significance of casting non-actors to enhance realism. The discussion also touches on their unique editing process, the emotional connections that drive their storytelling,

and how magical realism allows for deeper exploration of themes.

Marcus Mizelle (01:08)
A quiet village, a young woman is pushed by her grandmother to apply for a job opportunity on a new golf estate being developed in the mountains. However, when she learns that the estate will be built over her estranged grandfather's Roybus, he lands. She is confronted with a difficult choice, directed by Devin Delmore and Jason Jacobs out of South Africa. Did I pronounce that right? How do you say? Roybus. Roybus. How did you guys meet? And also how did this project come together from you guys collaborating?

That's where Deirdre Jantris comes in. I think I met Devin in 2018 when I was sitting on a panel speaking about the importance of representation and the importance of us representing our own narratives. And specifically, I started speaking about Indigenous stories, us representing our own Indigenous narratives and also taking control of

making our own films and presenting ourselves in a positive way. After the talk, Kevin came to me and he was like, you know what, I'm this white dude and I wrote this story about the coloured community and I really would love to work with you on this project. So was like, you know what, I don't want to be a writer or director on this project. I would love to be a producer on this project.

And was like, I know the best person that can write this with you, that can direct this with you. And that's how Jason and Devin came together. Now they're making magic with all their projects. Got you. Okay, that makes sense. So you were the curator. brought them together. At the time, I just had the experience of going into this little village, which is where we shot the film, called Wuppertal. And I just made friends there by going to visit. And I learned how to harvest the rooibos, the tea.

I was just hanging out in this place and I just thought there's something very special about this community, something very beautiful. And all I had in terms of narrative was very, very basic things. Not really a narrative in that sense, there was very little going on, but I kind of presented that to Jason and said, this is kind of something that's come up for me that I find very beautiful. And being interested in magical realism, which is one of the things that Diedre said, here's a guy who's working in theater and magical realism.

I think it was then the start of something. Yeah, I want to jump into what Devin said. think that the Dead Red bring us together was the catalyst to many more stories that came from there. Many more projects that allowed us to work in a similar nature as we with Carissa, where we worked in close collaboration with community in mind and really trying our utmost best to represent.

an authentic kind of positive representation of a people that are sometimes underrepresented or sometimes represented not so positively. Beautiful. So, Devin, did you write this story and where did this come from? Where was the initial seed? The initial seed would have been when I went into that village of Ubuntu for the first time, sort of by chance, just out of took me there and just making friends with various people in the community like Edgar Valentin, who ended up being in the film. He plays the representative of Montreal.

So many people we just made friends, we later cast in the film as quite big figures or characters. That was the germ of the idea, was just being there. And then Jason and I would go up several times, because it's quite far away, it's a four hour drive, two hours of that is on a very, very rickety dirt road. We would just spend time then, as we were there, we started sharing ideas and things going around and picking up on conversations and cues that are happening in the village itself, but on a kind of microcosmic level, but also happening in South Africa.

the sort of disenfranchisement of the youth and not sure what to do with your life and where to go and what decisions to take. Being backed in a corner by very large capitalist endeavors and having the same kind of responsibilities to your family to take care of them and needing to make something of yourself. So there's various expectations placed on young people that Jason and I really identify with. And so I think it was just this big melting pot of various things and conversations with a lot of elders in the village.

over all these years of development that just took us forward and we started to really figure out a narrative based on these things. We also went through various labs and that sort of thing and having international input and all these things helped us shape the story and figure out what are we actually saying. The labs come up a lot, it feels like, with these interviews. It's like a common denominator. Like the refining process, I guess, right? It seems to be a very valuable linchpin within the development of the script, I guess.

Can you talk about what you guys experienced in the lab? What did you end up with at PostLab? I think that the labs have really challenged us in a beautiful way as writers, having gone to different labs in a South African context, but also globally, has really created a sense of critical thinking around our choices. And also, I think, finding a truth within staying quite authentic to...

our lens and to our responsibility towards the South African community and fighting for our choices and not being swayed too much by specific things. But I think also in the same breath, refining ourselves as writers, building very strong connections with people, making beautiful relationships a possibility in the hopes of returning back to these labs and figuring out.

new ways of telling stories with the upcoming work that we have on our slate. Got you. It's important to like get out of your own perspective and have people come in and help you see some issues or problem areas or how something can go from good to great. Okay, I'm to read your bio. Jason Jacobs is a multi award winning writer director who creates from an African. I'm going to mess this word up too. Namakwa? Namakwa. He's theater maker, movement director and published poet. He was honored in 2017 by

Klein Karoo National Arts Festival for his contribution to South African theater and performing arts. With the short film Namaswan, 2018 film, and his most recent work includes a feature-length adaptation of Adam Small's highly anticipated Christmas Ben Map Jacobs. Devin Delmar's short films have been showcased internationally and locally, Cape Town being local.

His passion lies in exploring alternative perspectives to his own, the points of views of animals, mountains and plants. He is a lecturer in the study of magical realism, history of film and cinema of the non-human at the University of Cape Town. Very cool, damn. One of the movies that comes to my mind, Beast of the Southern Wild, would that be a magical realism kind of vibe? I think so. think Beast of the Southern Wild was definitely on our radar. It wasn't something that we were trying to emulate in any way. We did appreciate a lot of things from that film.

and especially in the way that it was able to capture the environmental crisis in something tangible for the character. I that's one of the beauties of that film, how it's able to take something that's called the slow violence of environmental degradation or something like that. That's a phrase I once heard. And how do you represent that in a film without it being taken place over thousands of years? You make it into an au rock. I think that challenged us in a big way of how do you represent for us, you kind of the environmental catastrophe is more in the guise of a

capitalist venture. I see. The global ecological collapse and the collapse within family systems as well and collapse within the South and how everything is so connected. Such a beautiful reference, Marcus. Beautiful, beautifully. You know, it's funny, I had moved to New Orleans the week before and I was a grip at the time and somebody was like, do want to work on this movie? About an hour, hour and half away from New Orleans. And at that time, you're not worried about anything except for how much are they paying, you know? And they're like, yeah, a hundred dollars to grip. And I was like, I'm not going down there to work on.

the southern whatever, for a hundred bucks. So my roommate ended up doing it and he ended up pulling focus on that movie actually, he was an AC on that. But it was so cool because it's just a job from my perspective at that point, but then once that movie came out and you realize how beautiful and special it was, of course I was like, damn it, wish I would have worked on that. What a great movie. What has that director done since? In Zaitlan, I saw his name pop up somewhere else recently, but I haven't followed. But in terms of experience, I think...

Maybe a parallel between our two films is how deeply it leans into the community. Okay. Which is something that we find as a recurring sort of motif in our films. It's not something that really set out to do, it just kind of happened. Don't you love when that happens? Yeah, there are so many motifs within our stories that keep coming up in animation and theatre and film, which mediums that we're writing in now. Yeah, let's talk about the motifs then, because I've noticed that with my own stuff too, where I guess this is what I really do care about. I wasn't conscious of it until now.

For me, it's a lot of underdog little guy versus the man type stuff. That's my pattern. And I feel like this film is similar. I related to it because she is trying to figure her way out, I feel like, and she's got these pressures of family and expectations from family, but also she's trying to figure her own self out and she's dealing with these bigger, confusing things of these macro entities as far as what the character's going through.

Yeah, sounds pretty good. Sounds pretty good. She's not too concerned about the big environmental thing. She's more thinking just about herself. She's not really like an eco warrior in any sense. She's just trying to figure out who she is. Which makes it more relatable. It's very universal. Yeah, she kind of by fate, in a way, falls into the possibility of caring for nature, caring for the robust fields and that relationship that then...

builds with her grandfather, but it's not something that she sets out to do at the very beginning. How did you go about creating her arc and how do you know when you've got it right as far as a character arc? We had this kind of almost eco-warrior thing in an earlier draft and it was never picked up or critiqued on by any of the labs we visited or anyone we sent the script to. Ikedesa was more active in her pursuit of being the little guy versus the big guy. And I think there was a point at which expectations for budget and the scope of the film we were trying to make.

we realized, that's not possible. Let's make a film within our means. And it was such a blessing. was something that we couldn't have actually anticipated, but bringing the film down to a lot more earthy level was the best thing that could have happened. Having a very small budget was totally in line with what the film needed to be and the actual story that we wanted to tell. It took us all these years to figure out what do we really want to be saying or what do we want to be asking of ourselves. How many years? I get confused when we met. It was either in 2016 or...

2017, he'd seen it somewhere around there. And this was our first project. Then what happened was it became simpler, basically. so, Carissa's arc, which was a little bit more fancy or bigger or more dramatic, became actually very simple. There was a sense that relying on story and the character and the complicated wars within Carissa's family setup allowed us to really deepen the narrative and to go to the root instead of

trying to put on all of these extra miscellaneous things that wasn't really important for this version of the story. Because I do believe that the other versions that came before this one could have and would have also had a very big impact. But I think essentially we were guided to respond to the world today with the version that we ended up with, with the truth that we could find in the process. That's beautiful. Can I ask how thrifty were you?

with this project? Are we talking like micro budget? we talking low budget? And then expand on what is valuable about having less. I think it's something we spoke about internally as to actually not mention the budget ever because it creates certain expectations. Even if someone's seen the film and enjoys it and loves it for what it is, it changes their opinion retrospectively.

And we try to avoid that. But in terms of making do with kind of the resources that we had, one of the things that was a kind of a constraint, but it led to, think, a very big strength was to cast from the community. That was a beautiful experience to just find there are such performers in this community, people who have never really acted before in any sense. was theater or as a child, maybe perhaps, but to just see them absolutely grab this challenge by the horns and just be incredible.

for example, of Oma Velomina, Calessa's grandmother. I won't say she was playing herself. There were elements to her character that she was taking from the script, but a lot of it was from her own life. She was shot in her own house and wearing her clothes and her manner of speech. It was very collaborative. Just conversations would swirl around and things that people say and thought and did would find themselves into the script.

And I suppose another element of our thriftiness was we obviously came in with a very fully developed screenplay, but as production went on, it just came clear to us that to actually allow the environment to dictate to us what the scene should be about, even though we've written dialogue and everything is very much set, we kind of played a lot more than I would have expected going into it. And it became so liberating to go, well, what materials do we have today to play with?

We know where we want to go to in each scene and what sort of has to happen. But to just go right here right now and let's go. I love it so much. It's like a documentary or fiction. We're always after realism. Authenticity is like the key ingredient, I feel like a lot of times. Trying to create and maintain authenticity so that you can connect with that viewer on an emotional level. I love also that the non-actor casting. You're telling me grandma was not an actor. That's crazy.

Yeah, but I think that we believe that she's always also been in a way, like she's very theatrical, she's known in town to be quite the storyteller when she tells a story. So I think there's that level of collaboration that we found. I remember once I asked, we already cast Vilhelmina and I was sort of feeling very confident about it, but we didn't do really rehearsals very much, even at all. We'd sometimes rehearse just a couple of minutes before we...

press record, but there was a moment where asked Edgar, who plays the main Montreal representative, and I was just a little bit worried about, you know, how heavy the scene has to go where Vilhelmina chases Kittes out of the house and beats her with a slipper. And was one of the ones I was worried about. Can she go to those heights? And Edgar, known Vilhelmina his whole life, was said, don't worry about that. She can lean in. He's seen her beat a few children since her last time, so don't worry. She can find that energy.

So yeah, it's just that trust was always there and someone like Vilhelmina, it's just so wonderful to work with. She just delivered and was so hardworking. So when you were casting, when she came across, how soon did you know that she was the one? How do you make these decisions casting? I think instantly. Like the final decision. Like you just know. There was a moment when we had to cast quite quickly. I think we only had two days to cast one of the characters. And it was a woman who had a very important speech in the phone for the lead actress.

And we knew in our guts that this is the person. And we went with that trust and that blossomed on screen. I really do believe that this was a once in a lifetime opportunity for all of us to come together. I do believe that every single person, especially the wardrobe and makeup and continuity department, they had such a big job to work with Devin and myself because we dreamt so much.

And everyone who was on board really, it really felt like everyone was called to be there for that particular period of, I think it's something that happens magically when you're in such a long development process and you really believe in a project, that the project pulls people together. And it really was magical. There's very little that we can say in terms of why it worked and how we trusted that the people were the right people to cast and to be on set with us. And it just happened.

It's also testament to Deirdre and her ability to know who to bring together. Let me tell you guys this. I want some advice if you don't mind. So I'm from North Carolina and I've been doing this short documentary about the indigenous people from Eastern North Carolina, the Tuscarora people. I've hired an indigenous editor. What else can I do to make sure that I don't step on toes and tell this story correctly? Besides, of course, staying in close contact with my subjects and make sure that I get their approval. I don't know about advice. I don't think I'm at a place.

At least speaking for myself at a place in my career where I can very easily dispense advice because I'm still learning so much every day and failing every day at so many things in a very good sort of positive way and the productive way. just had friends in Wuppertal and that's where it started. Just hanging out in Wuppertal and becoming very close with various people, especially Iskeren, just being at his house and having bris or barbecues as they're called in America and just having fun in that community.

Gradually the story takes place alongside Jason. And I think it comes up in conversation. But there isn't really an answer to this. think it's always something to talk about and to raise and not shy away from it and bring it up into the light so that it can be interrogated. Who are you and why are you here? Maybe not more so than anyone else, really. think everyone should be asking themselves those questions, even if it's an autobiographical film.

What right do you have to kind of tell any story? I don't know if there's a clean answer to that. I love what you just responded with. We do need to talk about it. Is it the right thing to do to like not be a part of a culture, but to have something to say? I think as long as your intentions are pure and good and you can help and you have some sort of blessing, then maybe that could be a way to go about that. You got to have the conversation. I think that's step one, right? I would like to respond as well. I think that for too long and for too many generations, the...

we are speaking to in terms of indigenous people, the First Nation people, the people of the Black community, the Brown community. For too many generations, we have not been able to be given access and platforms as big as these ones, to be able to really express what is at the core of what we understand our cultures to be and to mean. And I think that

The context with Endeavor and I is definitely worth investigating, interrogating and talking about, but it's a different set. I think that we were called together to speak about stories that will always be connected to indigeneity by nature of who we work with and by nature of myself as a filmmaker, but that isn't at the center of our investigation. I think that is by nature of us working together, but it isn't necessarily the focus point.

My response is, think that there's place for people to tell stories when you are called to the story and when the story has chosen you to tell it. And if you are able to navigate the politics around it and you're able to understand the sensitivities around a story that you're trying to bring into the world, that it will inherently by nature, naturally be a process that is respected and needed for the outcome to be what it will be.

But as you also say, I think it's about intention and I think it's about understanding our position, my position as a man also, my position as whatever these human-made labels push onto us. The beauty about my relationship with Devin, for example, as a collaborator is it extends beyond our politics, is that we go to the more than human to find perspectives, to find ways in which to navigate the world as storytellers.

And it's so exciting that we could be having these conversations as descendants of such a complex and complicated past within the South African context, that we are able to be given space and access to challenge the past, but also at the same time, acknowledge our position within the present moment, talking about politics from the past that we are still constantly trying to deal with. A beautiful poet speaks about a kind of colonial hangover.

that we are still navigating. And I think that's quite interesting for me and a way for us to do that. But yeah, it's great that you asked the question and it's great that we can discuss it. We need to do it more often. Yeah, think also an interesting thing between our relationship, Jason and I, is we like to lean into the really uncomfortable conversations. think to unearth things from them is where a lot of magic comes from. But it's being quite vulnerable, which

I is a struggle for all of us. It's being vulnerable. think that's why a lot of what we write, I think in various stories and various mediums, becomes very therapeutic for us because we lean into the difficult sides of us that are difficult to unearth. And to bring them up to the surface means you have to face them. And the things that your families don't want to talk about with you, we kind of do with each other.

I think growth requires discomfort, right? What's the alternative? To have some like boring conversation about whatever. Let's try to find some progress or some common ground or some inspiration or some understanding, you know, where's the good stuff? Thank you guys for sharing. So production, any other notable kind of stories, highlights or challenges or anything during production that are worth mentioning? I'd like to raise Gretchen's performance. think that's something that I'm excited to share with the world. I'm excited for her to be in Venice.

for her to see what effect that she has on people and just the enormity of her performance and what she delivered as a way of kind of introducing her to the world. I feel very honored that it's through a project that we've done that Gretchen Ramston can be seen in the world at large. And I watch the film now and I kind of struggle to watch the film. really? Because it brings up so much for me since we completed it. But the one takeaway for me at all times is just how amazing.

she is and how completely absorbed she was in her process on set. And you can really see it. She leapt in. It's completely courageous. She holds it down for sure. She holds it down. It's a hard job to keep that going. This is not a cinematography podcast, but I love the way this movie looks. Talk about y'all's decision to shoot it the way you shot it. You like the full three? What are your thoughts? I like it a lot. wait. There's an intimacy to it, right?

Totally. It kind of brings you in closer, I guess, right? And also I love when people use things from the past. It's just a fresh way to approach a story if it's relative to it. It was quite a gamble from early on. kind of knew, and we've been told this, we've kind of been told that we kind of jettisoned the idea of commercial success by making it 4-3, which I think is quite harsh just because of how personally beautiful we find it and how it just completely naturally fit with the vision of the film that we had.

4.3 was kind of from the beginning, this is what we're gonna do. We decided that early on. That's a bit sad to hear that kind of means so a big percentage of people will now not watch it. That's a bit sad. I feel like they're missing out on something. They're missing out on something beautiful. You're talking about Hollywood. I mean, they're missing out on a lot of things. I feel like there's a fork in the road a lot of times when it comes to how you're gonna make your movie or what movie you're gonna make. You know, is it gonna be for like a commercial marketplace or is it gonna be for

emotional impact. A lot of times these days it seems like that they're getting further and further apart. I feel like there have been times in the past where they converged, where it was commercial and emotionally engaging films. But right now, think if they do make it through, it's an accident. So you almost got to make a choice from the beginning, right? I didn't get into movies to make money. If I did, I'd be an executive. I'm not. So it's like, I'm sure you guys didn't either, right? You have to choose the path of emotional engagement.

What speaks to you and what's right to the project? But I do think maybe being naive, Jason, jump in if you disagree, but I do feel like both can be true. I think also you grow up watching films and you watch films with your family and you go, wow, I want to make my family feel this way. I want to represent them whenever I tell a story. want them to be seen on the screen. I want them to celebrate themselves. And I want my community to go, wow, that's us.

away, that's us, you know, there's a level of excitement that you always strive for. And I think that's a sense of truth that you just continuously live with and for I think commercial, non-commercial, whatever the outcome is a result of many different things that come together. That's like an alchemy that creates a thing. But at the core of it, you're like, I want my grandmother to watch this film and I want her to have

a transcendental experience because I know that her review is the one that will be the most honest. You're doing it for grandma. Yeah, exactly. I think at the heart of it, think we as filmmakers and maybe I'm generalizing, but we're always trying to make films that has a lasting impact on the people who mean the world to us. And you can call it wanting approval or wanting a pat on the shoulder.

But at the heart of Connectivity too, right? Yeah, it's the sense of like, I'm here because of you and we are here together. We made this together. Which is why I'm excited for Carriza for Venice, because my entire family will be there in spirit and we'll all celebrate this moment together. That's exciting. You're to get some good red carpet pictures. No way! We just figured out what the music will be on the red carpet, which is kind of...

not something you ever think about when you start making a film. It was based on how much Didre enjoyed dancing to it, I think. It was the party scene. It's called the real dance. Okay. And so when everyone's dancing in the dust, so it'll be a jam, think, being on the red carpet. That's awesome. How was it to edit? Were there any specific highlights or challenges to editing non-traditional actors? It was my first time editing a feature. It was so useful and beautiful to have Jason there all the time. So I think we were co-directing the edit. Awesome.

It would be a constant back and forth to see what's working and what's not working. But it wasn't too much of challenge to be editing performance, especially from someone like Vilamina, who delivered consistently on every take. Amazing. That's why I think Vilamina is just incredible. Every take? wild. Which makes you a happy editor, doesn't it? Because there's so much coverage I can just go to all the time. So I edited for a few months and because it was my first sort of venture on this...

scale, we brought in a finishing editor, a man called Richard Starkey, who's very famous and very well established in South Africa. abroad as an editor. The name sounds very familiar. Yeah, he's incredible. I was very lucky to spend, I think, four days with him. And there was a particular sequence, the bizarre sequence, where that real music comes through. He came in specifically for a few sequences that there were things that I couldn't do, the fast-paced dance sequence, for example.

I had no idea how to bring something like that together and make it fun and exciting. he just pulled the rabbit out of the hat. Absolutely. He gave suggestions there that I would never in a million years have even considered. At some point, Jason and can go back and go, actually, this isn't the vision. We're going to go back to what we decided. That's really hard because you're going against a lot of experience there. And it might even have been the wrong decision in the grander scheme of things. But you just have to trust your gut, even if you are.

That's the collaboration. Yeah, it's director editor collaboration. Yeah. Yeah.

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