E36 • Story First, Jokes Second • DELANEY BUFFETT, dir. of ‘Adult Best Friends’ - Golden Key Winner at KWFF following Tribeca

Delaney Buffett, recipient of the Golden Key Award at the Key West Film Festival and director of “Adult Best Friends” which premiered at the Tribeca Film Festival, stresses that when creating comedy, the story comes first. Past films discussed include Mike Nichols’ “The Birdcage” and Paul Feig’s “Bridesmaids.

She shares insights on developing her film with friends, the significance of real-life experiences in crafting relatable narratives, and the importance of emotional depth in storytelling, including the intricate balance of blending genres. Also discussed are “two-lane directors” such as Billy Wilder and Mike Nichols, who have mastered both comedy, drama, and other genres. 

Delaney speaks on challenges faced during production, and the importance of communication and collaboration, emphasizing the need for patience and resilience along her filmmaking journey.

Like, subscribe and follow us on our socials @pastpresentfeature

Chapters

• 0:01 Past Present Feature, Hosted by Marcus Mizelle
• 0:24 Introducing Delaney Buffett, dir. of "Adult Best Friends"
• 1:12 Who Dat - Filming in New Orleans
• 3:01 Influences and Inspirations in Comedy
• 6:31 The Balance of Comedy and Emotion
• 8:32 Past Inspo: "The Birdcage" dir. by Mike Nichols
• 10:22 "Two-Lane" Directors + Developing a Film with Friends
• 15:02 Real-Life Inspirations for Storytelling
• 19:17 The Importance of Collaboration and Team Dynamics
• 23:03 Auto-biographical Insights and Authenticity
• 27:20 Understanding Genre and Storytelling Techniques
• 34:07 The Power of Comedy in Film
• 39:44 The Art of Blocking and Directing
• 43:27 Communication and Collaboration on Set
• 51:42 Editing Comedy: Finding the Right Pace
• 56:12 The Journey to Film Festivals
• 1:04:39 Lessons Learned: Patience and Resilience

Transcript

Marcus Mizelle (00:24)
Delaney Buffett, recipient of the Golden Key Award at the Key West Film Festival this year and director of Adult Best Friends, which premiered at Tribeca, stresses that when creating story comes before the joke. Past films discussed include Mike Nichols' The Birdcage and Paul Feig's

She shares insights on developing her film with friends, significance of real life experiences in crafting relatable narratives, and the importance of emotional depth in storytelling, including the intricate balance of genres.

Also discussed are two lane directors such as Billy Wilder and Mike Nichols who have mastered both comedy, drama, and other genres.

Delaney speaks on challenges faced during production

and the importance of communication and emphasizing the need for patience and resilience along her filmmaking journey.

Marcus Mizelle (01:12)
have a first question for you. Are you a New Orleans Saints fan? Because I know your dad was a big Saints fan. I am, admittedly, I don't follow sports, but yes. I mean, if I had to choose a team, would just allegiance wise because he was. We have a bunch of his stuff now. So yeah, but.

Yes, it's the short answer. I don't follow sports. So I can't pretend like I know you're so much happier for that. I'm Well, they just fired their head coach this morning. So I just wanted to talk sports on a film podcast. Where are you from? North. I'm from. OK, so I'm from North Carolina and I couldn't get into football because like their culture. I don't know. I just couldn't get into it. then I was always basketball. I'll keep this very brief. And then I got into the film industry in Wilmington, found my footing there.

and then went to New Orleans, followed the tax incentive around and just, I was a grip for like eight years, seven years. I wanted to go work on big movies. So I went to New Orleans where they had the film industry going crazy there back in like 20. So like actually a month after the Saints won the Superbowl and I just fell in love with the Saints culture, New Orleans. And then also how New Orleans was just rabid about football. And so it was just like, okay. Yeah. And then of course you start watching, we're on film sets and there's like,

We would film a lot on Sundays because you, you know, like to get filming to schools or like, you know, places that weren't open during the week or weren't available during the week. Like there would be six TVs on set watching the same. It's like fucking priorities, know. used to, the second movie I was a PA on was in New Orleans. So I worked on there in two movies in 2017, 2016. Okay. What movies? It was called billionaire boys club. And then I was a producer's assistant on mud bound. Okay. So.

Cool, thank you for doing this, appreciate it. watched your movie. It's good. It did remind me of Bridesmaids. Yeah, yeah. Which I guess mainly because the friend doesn't want to give up her friend to her soon to be husband. Would you say that's a good assessment? Yeah, think Bridesmaids was definitely an influence on the movie. I think just...

by nature of the plot and the fact that there was a female friendship at the center of it, we were definitely referencing it quite a bit and it's hilarious. So that was kind of in the back of our minds with a couple other references, but no, that's not the wrong thing at all to say. That's always a compliment. What past films inspired you for Adult Best Friends? And then also what past films do you love the most that maybe aren't associated with this new film of yours? I think...

When we were writing this and I think in general, my writing partner, Katie Corwin and I who have, you know, we've been best friends, which is in line with the movie since we were 10 years old. And I think when we started writing together seven years ago, I think we were just wanting to make comedy and we love it so much. And I think we started out on, you know, making a web series together. And so I think all of those comedies we grew up with, you know, that the

Bridesmaids and Superbad and a lot of those early Judd Apatow movies just because I think we wanted to write, you know, hard comedy, but always have, you know, sort of a universal message surrounding it or like a central relationship that you cared about bringing you through. You cannot, I think it's interesting making it because I think all those movies they have to do such a good job of that. Or it's just like you actually care about the people and they're cast so well and the writing so great.

And I think that's what we wanted to do is create a personal story and have there be sort of a universal message at the center of it, but also feel free to make it kind of like weird and goofy and funny. I think, you know, comedy is so subjective and I've learned that with the reactions to this, but also my reactions to certain comedies. So I think it was important that you could also feel something because for us, if there was no structure to it and there was no people that you cared about, you know, it could just

to me it's not as fun of a journey. So we were sort of hoping to do that. So, okay, thank you for making comedies. We need more of them. We're in a weird place, we all know that, with comedies. We don't see a lot. I think people are scared to get canceled or scared to say the wrong thing or whatever. But you should know that my first love as a filmmaker was making comedies as well. My first two features were comedies and they were hilarious by the way. The first one didn't give a fuck.

which was good, but there might be some things that I'd be cringing on if I put it in front of group of people now. This was 09. I made a film called Actor for Hire and comedy and two things. One, we used the actor's real first names like you do in this film, which I love and it's so cool and kind of gives it an autobiographical anchor, I guess, at least for us, maybe for you two. Kind of a Seinfeld approach as well, Larry David.

You know, and then you're pulling from real life. You can't help but to do that. But you're also kind of exaggerating and extending from that and having doing whatever you want. And so the other thing is your comment about it not just being comedy, but about it having substance and having, you know, an empathetic line out to the audience. Right. Cause like I see comedy as always. Well,

I think comedy needs to be on top of another genre in place too, right? You can't just have laughs, laughs, laughs, or your audience is not gonna care after 20 minutes, even if you're hilarious, right? So talk about the importance again, like expand on the importance of the other genre that you probably wanna attach to a comedy film, you know, to give the audience a, you gotta give them like a character that is really going through something. It can't just be laughs, right? Yeah, I think that's super like,

When we've screened this, which it's really great, we've been at a few festivals and that's been really fun just to watch a comedy in theaters to see people, what people react to because what you think they'll react to or who you think will be affected is very different than what happens, you know, and people have come up to us of very different ages and said, you know, this really affected me in a certain way. And I didn't, you know, we always talk about this, but when Katie and I were on set, when this was on the paper, when this was on script, it was a very

much more of a hard comedy. And certainly there were undertones of emotionality. But when, since we are actual friends in real life, when we started filming a lot of the scenes, like we don't, you know, we don't say a lot of this stuff to each other. It's very much implied in our relationship, like the implication of a friendship is you love the person and you want them in your life. So when we started saying this stuff out loud to each other, like we would cry, we would get upset. And I think

I realized that this was more of romantic comedy between friends than it was a hard comedy. That sort of came together honestly in the edit when I was choosing with the editor, sort of like what's the tone of this and how do we hone this in? How do we make it emotional but have heart? And those are my favorite movies, I think. One of my favorite movies, not to jump around, but is Birdcage. And I think I always talk about it because I've seen it a hundred times, but.

It's such a good example of just characters you care about. And it's such a universal experience of, you know, wanting no one to judge your family. And so you watch it you know, you have that feeling, but it's also so funny. And it's a lot of the funny moments come from the specificity of the characters and the characters' voices. And I really love that. So I think, again, it's about caring.

for the people that you're laughing with and making those characters multi-dimensional because like to your point, I think there's certainly moments in our movie that do this and a lot of comedies I see where it's like, know, sometimes certain scenes or certain moments can feel like a long sketch if there's not structure to the characters and to the story. And so that's something I'm always striving to and not always succeeding with because it's difficult, but in comedies really hard as I'm sure you know. So.

I think striking the correct tone in a comedy to your point where you're trying to sort of merge it with like horror or merge it with dark, mean, it's a dark comedy or merge it with, you know, romance. Getting the right tone is super hard. It's serious. Comedy is serious business, know, somewhere. I love that you brought up Birdcage because it's one of my favorite directors and I had to Google it just to...

I'm usually, I have this weird like encyclopedia in my head of like who directed what and I'm starting to doubt myself more. So when I Google it, I was right in my mind, but I still wasn't sure. Mike Nichols, I love, love, love Mike Nichols. mean, closer, it's not a comedy at all, but that movie's my favorite Mike Nichols film. Obviously the graduate, but Birdcage like, and he reminds me as far as Mike Nichols directing Birdcage, it reminds me of like Billy Water.

directing something like it hot or he made serious films like Sunset Boulevard, but he also made comedies like I love that. These two lane directors, know, like the understanding of genre and combining genre too, as far as like when it comes to modern comedies or any successful comedy. Like you're saying yours is a rom-com, right? Romance and comedy. Which the romance drives the story and drives the empathy for the characters. And think we all kind of know that.

at this point you should, mean it's like comedies offer this like, what is the valuable thing with comedies? Like it offers like a, it is a time capsule and like you look back at some of them and the comedy isn't working maybe 10 or 15 or 20 years later, but at the time it really does because it's really social commentary, right? Of the time that it takes place in. So I mean, I don't really have a question for you.

No, think it's also it's like a very cathartic, people say this a lot, but so it's not a new thought by any means, but it's a cathartic experience. think, you know, for us making it, know, Katie and I, the test of our friendship, but also rewatching it, you know, I tear up a little bit at the end because of my own movie, which is very self-indulgent, but it's not it's not because the scenes affecting me, it's because, you know, it makes me think about my

relationship with my best friend and what I would be without her and how there she's been there for me. And so that was cathartic for me. And I hope it's cathartic for people who watch it as well. know, whether the experience is nostalgic or happy or sad and encourages you to like call your best friend. I don't know. But I think the reality is when you get older, your priorities shift and friends can't be in the center of your life anymore. So it's about making time for them. And I think

I am at a point in my life where that is important to me. And I think a lot of times like your pull shrinks a little because you don't have as much time as you did. And I think we just wanted to make a movie about friendship and that sounds simplistic. But again, I think we were never setting out to make anything but something.

that we hope is relatable and we hope people enjoy watching. I think we just wanted people to laugh and feel anything or something. It's simple, but simple is good. Universal is good, right? You can really tap in. You can connect with a lot of folks that way. mean, who can't relate to losing or going through a trying time with the best friend, you know? And I think it's just a character going through a change, a specific, relatable change, which that's a main ingredient of a good film.

So let's talk about the kind of you developing it, developing this project out with Katie, right? You guys wrote it together? Yeah, Katie and I wrote it together and we were working with our friend, Marie Nicolova, who produced it. And we kind of, we all wanted to make something and we wanted to do it low budget. And Katie and I really wanted to make a comedy that was specific to our voice, which is hard nowadays because things go through so many different phases. And to your point, like there's a lot of

you know, external things that are making comedy more difficult than it has in the past. And so I think we wanted to make something and our friend Marie worked with Zachary Quinto and she worked for him and, you know, we started writing. She's like, let's just go make, let's make something very low budget indie. And, know, if you write Zach a role, like I'll send it to him. And, you know, we worked with Zach on his Zachary Quinto on his character, Henry.

alongside him and sort of developed it with him. So it got to a place where one, could shoot him out in one day. Two, we could make a very specific character driven person who was multi-dimensional, even though they're in the movie for two to three scenes, you know? it's, it's- Which you spread out throughout the film, which is- Yeah. And it was important for us to sort of do that with everyone, particularly people who were larger actors coming onto the film because it was, you know,

a real shoestring situation. so Katie and I wrote it and would send it back and forth to Marie and we wanted to write something personal. And that was our friendship. I had given a speech at her wedding and talked about how I think the final was like that I was like passing the torch over to her husband in terms of the most important person in her life, which I think hopefully we share that seat a little bit, but reality checks and that happens.

And someone came up to me after the wedding and was like, you know, no one really ever talks about what happens when your friends get married that much. And I was like, oh yeah, I guess that's true. And I, you know, I didn't thought about it because I just turned 30 and not that many of my friends were getting married yet. So I personally hadn't experienced it. It's this abrupt thing too, I guess, for most people in this situation. like I didn't even think about it until I was writing the speech, giving it to Katie on her wedding day. And so that's sort of the origin of us discussing that. And then we were like, we have to develop a plot around it and certain characters and, and

The plot is completely fictional, but a lot of the emotional things that we went through definitely are setting the tone for the movie. So that's sort of how we developed it. then we were cast, we wrote a lot of characters for our friends who are comedians or our writers and worked with them and workshopped it and then started to bring on other cast once we had people attached and committed to it. But I think we knew that

We weren't going to have a lot of time and a lot of money. So we made the scripts. We try to make the script as tight as possible. I was like, it needs to be 95 pages or less. We don't have the time. We don't have the schedule. Um, and so I really wanted to have the tightest script possible. He needed to vote at Anne-Marie before stepping onto the set. And I wanted to be as prepared as humanly possible because I was wearing a lot of hats. I didn't want to.

be letting anything fall through the cracks in any of my roles. you don't want to be a statistic. No, no. I wanted to really set everything up so that when I was on set, everyone knew collaboratively what our responsibilities were, who was in charge of what, which was really important and in hindsight was effective in terms of us getting everything done. Yeah. Just having that solid foundation. It's the whole house metaphor, but really, it's like,

And I just love when people take real life and use it as inspiration and then also infuse it into their film. I mean, it's such a great way to make a movie, especially if you have limited resources or whatever, you And then with that also, it's that whole silver, it's the gift from like, you know, a limitation where you're getting these authentic moments and these like authentic scenarios as well. Yeah. And I want to revisit one more time.

the actor for our movie that we made, the inspiration also came similarly where my friend Jesse is just a walking comic character, really, like in real life. Like he's like, oh man, my head hurts. I'm like, what do you mean your head hurts? I just got hit by a bus. Wait, hold on, what now? So yeah, I was just walking, standing there, was just walking and the bus comes in the mirror, hits me in the back of the head. I'm like, that's funny, you're funny. You're like a dude walking down the street and you step into a pothole. And anyway, so it was just like,

three more of those situations, you know, where I would go to the Starbucks at the Grove. This was shit, eight years ago. And he would, there would be a line of silver MacBooks. And then at the end of the table, the last table would be Jesse with his little like eight inch like Dell crap top, we called it, you know. So these little real life moments, like I would be a fool to not like write at least a web series, which you brought up too. We did a web series pilot. start small.

And then you just see what happens. You have nothing to lose at all. You don't have to do anything with it, but you're going to have fun making stuff. And it came out great. And then we expanded it into a feature. And it helped us all out quite a bit. And it all came from just taking note of real life. Yeah. I think you're right, too. And when you meet, there's so many when you actually open your eyes and look around. And think after you write something or you do something, you realize your point. You're like, wow, this person is a character. There's nothing I have to do with them. They are.

perfect for the page, they're perfect for the screen. And like that idea of him just standing in the Apple Store with his Dell computer, that's like, you're like, okay, this writes itself. And so I think that to me is the most fun is when you meet people or you discover people or you're just interacting with people that are inspiration for funny and sad moments. And I think there's so many crazy and cool people out there.

And with their permission, know, here, please. Yeah. Or, you know, you can always pull from smaller moments, but I think that's the, that's the way in my mind that you can create something that's relatable is like, wow, like I can, I know this person or I've pictured this person, or this is someone that is so ridiculous. They remind me of, you know, my cousin or my uncle or whatever. So yeah, I think that's the most fun to pull from is real life.

And it's also in your title of the movie, like part of it, best friends, like making a film with your best friend or someone that becomes your best friend. That's the best. It's the best. You know, we still, we have the inside jokes. We still like share stupid pieces of dialogue and you know, it's just like, my God. It's great. No, I think working with people you love and working with people like for us, I think a huge thing was because we were all doing it because we were friends or we'd work together. There are people I'd worked with on previous projects like

I think there was a lot of ego left at the door, which we had to establish early on, because it's like, look, like this is going to be really hard and challenging for everyone. So let's collaborate. Let's not, you know, blame shift. Let's like really make this a fun experience because why are we doing it? You know, if it's not fun. And so I think the entire time I just wanted to make sure, and you know, it was easy because everyone who worked on it was so incredibly.

kind and generous and patient with me as a first time filmmaker and with the limited resource that we did have. And so I really lucked out in that sense. But I also think I always want to create a fun environment, especially if it's a comedy. I think there's always being sensitive towards the actors and performances. But I think you can kind of meld sensitivity and fun and sort of read the room. And that's a big part of what I learned of being on set is just kind of the ability to juggle.

Yeah, a lot of different personalities and moments and sensitivities and I think that's something you learn quickly and hopefully you adapt because it's It's draining but it's important and to have morale and on a 18 hour 12 hour day where you know We were shooting in Mississippi in the summer as you know, we're in New Orleans. It's hot So, you know, you got to keep people's people motivated by something like Biloxi. Where are Mississippi?

Galaxie. Yeah, just a guess. don't know. yeah. Being an extension to like real life, like the ego thing, like it's nice to make fun of yourself as an actor, right? as you know, as a, you know, like being able to just have fun. does kind of keep the ego in check a little bit. And the thing is like making films, it's there. mean, it's self and being self-indulgent, you're being self-indulgent as soon as you start, as soon as you decide to make a film, right? I've got something to say and I'm going to say it to the world, which is great. But it's also just nice to just like explore and play around with.

whole kind of question of what am I trying to say here and how do I want to deliver it and back to real life briefly I'm a broken record with this but like I find it fascinating my own journey as far as going from being obsessed with making fiction to moving to documentaries for the same reason that we made actor for hire which is real life is hilarious and or fascinating and people are everywhere and this is my thing but like I just fell in love with the doc form and for example like right across the street from me

Like right across, not even to the left or right, but right across is this, you know, not to make it political, but it is the election eve here and he is a massive Trump supporter and great neighbor, great dude. He really is. I'm not a Trump supporter, but I'm from North Carolina and I'm not so flabbergasted by how someone could be supportive of the other side. Anyways, my point is right now, like I'm like, this could be an interesting thing to document during, before, during and after the election.

So I've been filming this little short documentary about this guy, which I had to go film a scene after this podcast. But my point is, you open your eyes, it's right across the street, a lot of this stuff, you know? And then also, like to the left of him is my other subject, who is a liberal, and I'm filming him as well, and I'm contrasting and juxtaposing that. So I don't know what's gonna happen. Maybe it'll be on PBS SoCal. I have no idea. But the point is, we're gonna film, we're gonna see what happens, because usually it works out.

I don't know. don't know what I'm doing. it's no, it's really interesting. And I think like, like you said, if you just open your eyes and listen to people like they usually have very compelling stories to tell and and, you know, to your point, like if you have right across the street from you, someone from each side of of what is happening right now to be able to just like roll a camera and see what people are saying is important. And I think it's like very, you know, you can

The thing about doc that's so great is like the edit is hard, but like you're not manipulating anyone's, you know, the edit you can, but it's a script is like you're scripting something. But when you just get a documentary person, you're just subject to just go off and talk. It's, very interesting to sit and listen to something that you one probably don't want to listen to normally wouldn't listen to. and it makes you sort of open your mind and kind of, and just like, learn about someone, whether you agree with them or not.

the authenticity is what I'm after most. it's like, you get that in spades with documentary stuff. I guess there always comes a point where you do have to, you go from observing being objective to making a decision, a creative decision as a filmmaker, as a storyteller. So, I mean, there's no lack of, there's no zero manipulation, you know, it's a nasty word, but you know what I mean? It's like, there's always a choice to be made. And I think, you you ask yourself, I asked myself with this doc project, for example, which applies to any movie you're making is like,

What is my goal here? Like really, what is my goal? What would I prefer? What could, or even what could be no concrete poor, but what could be, you know, the takeaway here. My takeaway with this is like, I'm not interested in stirring the pot. Like there's going to be juxtaposition and contrast and conflict based on left and right, you know, blue and red. But like, really my goal here is like, surely there are some commonalities. Surely like there's gotta be, even if they're being said and dressed up in different ways. So that's my goal. And it's like,

once i film film film and then getting the edit and it's like there there's the goal there's a go look at what they're saying the same thing and saying yeah i think different colors or whatever that's like when you get into it with a bunch of doc footage is so interesting to find the commonality of find a through line to find what's gonna pull you through the entire interview because when you're interviewing two people back to back and not seeing them side by side you yourself get confused about what was said or what wasn't said but it's

It's amazing to sit with footage and if you're doing something like you are where there's two sides to an argument, it's just to actually see like, well, when I cut this side by side to your point, a lot more of a commonality than they probably even think. Yeah. And it's a lot of juxtaposition and contrast is, a big deal, right? Especially with storytelling. keeps keeping things simple. it's like, I like to, I used to, I went through a phase

like five years where I tried to make everything so difficult, especially when I was screenwriting, where I'm like doing, which I'm glad I did, because it was a total like workshop of my, like nonlinear, as much nonlinear stuff, ensemble stories, you know, all that stuff. And that's advanced stuff, first of all. But then I realized like the simplicity of, you know, like what, what all my favorite movies, you know, for Star Wars, for example, you know, like it's very simple, but it's well made, well done, very clear. It's got a lot of clarity, good, bad, whatever.

and light versus dark, if you will. And I just find that contrast, just simple juxtapositions gives you so much to work with. then what is the op, you know, like how your story began. And I'm being like, this is very basic general kind of stuff, but I, but you know, like the hero's journey or like even, you know, how to find, if I can figure out the first half of a story, then I have no issue figuring out the last half because at least I know I can just do the opposite. I can look at the opposites of how that first half looks.

And if my story is about two guys, and I'm gonna get off my own project for a minute, if my story is about two opposites, then the opposite of that is that they get along. They find agreements, they find commonalities. so it's like, it's basic, but it works. And like our brains don't need some new wheel shape. We just need a nice wheel that works and glides down the road well, you know? Yeah, no, totally agree. And I think like, you know, I'm writing something right now and...

It's an intervision period of it. And Katie and I look at something, I think everyone has this, with everything, whatever you do has this, you overcomplicate things. And then you go down the line, you're like, it was, why did I have two characters? I only needed one character to tell the story. Or why did I have this scene and this just overly complicated and to just go through and I'll take, you know.

save the cat, literally I'll pull that up, which is the, you know, the basic screenwriting do's and don'ts. Snyder, right? Blake Snyder. And I'll just be like, am I hitting these beats? Cause I'm so lost in the story. I'm so lost in act two. I need to make sure to your point, like if I'm starting two people that are friends or not friends, they should get together in the end or things like that. And I think people, you know, I'm not trying to ever reinvent the wheel. think that's something that

Like you said, I hope that's something I can do with more experience because ensemble is tough and nonlinear is tough, all of that. And it's something that I aspire to do, but I think for me, I'm not some born genius. I couldn't write, what's that movie? The most famous one about the nonlinear one, Memento?

Memento? no one's yeah, Memento. can never write Memento. See, but Nolan is a genius where like, mean apparently he uses Venn diagrams to map out his story paradigms. He's like, okay, okay. You are not overpaid. No, but it's like, it's like these are, you see these things, you watch these things. I watched Memento, I just watched Girl with the Dragon Tattoo last night and Which one, the David Fincher or the original? The David Fincher. Okay, that's so great.

Great, the original is great too, but it's these stories and you see and it's like, you know, you wonder too, like, is this just something someone's born with doing or is it the, you know, thousands of hours of practice and learning? And I think for me, it's like, I just want to be able to somewhat, you know, master basic storytelling before I try to do that, because I don't know, I don't have the confidence right now. And I think.

that that's something that you hopefully develop over time, it is something that's so to make me man, don't even think of something like that. To think of any of these large ideas, I watch them and I'm like, damn, that was so smart. And I'm blown away and I'm like, fuck, I hope, sorry. It's totally fucking fine. Okay. I hope that one day I can do something like that. But I think, you know, I love comedy so much and that's the space that I think I feel most comfortable in. I would love to your point. I love Tulane directors who can do both.

one day I could do something more serious, but I just want to make comedy so badly and continue to do so and hopefully do it with more resources next time and in a larger level because it's to me where I'm happiest. Can we talk more about Tulane directors, comedy, a director, and I have two in mind real quick, where they're making comedy, but also another genre attached to it. Martin McDonough. Yeah, very much so. All of his, and even like when I saw

three billboards, like there were certain, was so funny at times. But then there was like the scene with Frances McDormand when she's crying, I think to Woody Harrelson, it's so emotional and raw. And you're like, oh wow, how did this person just take me from here to here so quickly? And it felt so, you know, was like a guttural, I was like, whoa. And yeah, that as well. And you're just like, how is this doing so many? And again, the storytelling is so great. And I think

For me, I love directing. I love writing so much. I think I'm not a, you know, I didn't go to film school and I'm less of a technical person because I, and I love, that's why I think I love a director like Mike Nichols where it's very like character based directing. And he's from theater, I think originally. Yeah. And he's a theater guy, which I think Martin McDonough has started in theater as well. Playwright as well. I think, you know, people who do both and like his movies, like they always are just like, wow, how does someone blend a genre this well?

It's understanding genre. It's understanding the power of genres and studying genres. And I gotta give a shout out to John Truby. I love John Truby as far as when it comes to writing anything, know, understanding genres. Like there's a book he put out called Anatomy of Genres. Just buy it. Like I try to put all my people on it. Everybody just buy that book. this is not, John Truby is not a sponsor. But no, I mean, it's just understanding like what has already been working for a hundred years in film.

but just understanding the roles and then of course trying to transcend those beats. But just knowing how the game is played or at least, and getting inspiration to kind of create your own stuff. I'm a sucker for Guy Ritchie, like especially early Guy Ritchie as far as action, crime, know, crime, action with comedy, like that's a blend that I haven't seen as well done as he's done, like Snatch and Blockstock and Two-Stuck and Barrels. And he's continued on, I feel like. The Gentleman, there's this sprinkling or like this nice layer of comedy.

No, I think it's also like specificity of voice too, where it's like that is such a specific. Okay, yes. You know what I'm saying? Like, which totally is the thing. it's like those people have, when I watch it, I'm like, oh, like, like, their voice and I and this guy Richie Wright, his movies as well. Yeah, I think so. Or at least he's usually a co writer.

But anyway, I think there's such a specific voice too where you're just like, this is so interesting, like in Martin McDonough as well. Like you're saying, like they layer it and maybe they're just layering it so well throughout the process. But it's like, that's something I also am like, wow, like this person has gotten their style and their voice down. And I wonder, know, like again, were they always doing that? You look at someone like Wes Anderson whose first movie was, I guess, Bottle Rocket, which is a lot less stylized than his stuff now.

So it's like, how does someone find their style and their voice and how do they hone it? like, you know, is it just like people respond well to it and it's like, okay, this is working. I think a lot of it too could be just like what we love to watch and what we come up with. I mean, there's a lot of Greta Gerwig, like she's one who came out the gates hot, you know what I mean? Like Lady Bird and is Lady Bird her first film? Bird was her first feature that she directed. think she co-wrote.

Francis Ha, I could be totally wrong. Which I mean, you know, guess Lady Bird has comedic elements for sure. Comedy is so wonderful, it's a powerful thing. It cuts through like a knife, know, like back to Three Billboards, or in Bruges, you can have something so profound. The number one ingredient is to have that connection with the characters, right? Like the empathy or the sustenance of that, the umbilical cord. But then to like...

Hit them with comedy when they least expect it is so solid. So you saw it. I ain't trying to talk about Marvel movies too much, but like you saw how they incorporated it. guess James Gunn did it first with like what Guardians of the Galaxy and then the Avengers took it and added comedy and it works massively. No, I just watched Deadpool Wolverine in it and it's super comedic and all mean all those movies are but like.

very tongue in cheek and I appreciate it. I think it's such a difficult thing to do. But again, I think those movies are, the Deadpool movies are very specific in tone and voice and kind of have been from the start. And that's again what you were saying about specific voice, Ron Reynolds' specific brand. The dude can't help it to be hilarious. Yeah, exactly. He's like a funny guy. So I want to ask you about your, veering back to your film,

your films or your, you know, but yeah, let's talk about, let's talk about the production of Adult Best Friends and maybe a little bit of post-production too, I guess. This is always a good place to start. Let's start with like, what was like a challenging, but like ultimately successful moment from production. Like something that maybe like the biggest challenge that gave a really good result, if anything. There were a lot of challenges in production. I think that, you know, it was really hot.

That was shot in much worse conditions, I'm sure, than we did. I think getting... This is a challenge. We had one camera, obviously, and at one point there were eight of us in this Airbnb with no AC. And the AD was, one of my good friends, Tyler, was like, there were all eight of us shooting this one scene, and it was with the most actors in the room. And we were shooting it, and the way we were covering it and doing it was just like...

Tyler and I both discussed after like we had no idea if how it was gonna work. Like there was eight of us, we had zero time. Like I think I got, you one take and everyone else stressed. Yeah. And we're something where I looked around and I was like, no idea how I'm going to edit this. No idea if this fits together tonally, if everyone's in a different movie, if I'm in a different movie, if I'm in a different head space. And that's a difficult thing with comedy too, is trying to make it.

you know, everyone has such different styles of comedy and we had a lot of comedians in ours and it's just trying to make sure that that all is cohesive in one scene. So that was the biggest challenge, not only because of the heat, but just because there's so many actors, I'm a first time filmmaker, I'm in it. You know, I can only split myself so many different ways. And then when I was in the edit, because the actors' performances were all so strong and they were such strong comedic.

had such strong comedic backgrounds, it worked. It took a lot of editing and zhuzhing, but everyone was doing what they were supposed to be doing. And I was very lucky and happy. it was like, again, everyone was a good sport. So it was like, okay, it's a hundred degrees, but everyone did their limited takes that they had, unfortunately, and it worked in the edit. And it's one of my favorite scenes, I think, just because I...

Katie and I always joke and we're watching, always have a story, as you know, you always have a story or a memory behind each scene so they can be tainted. If they're funny scenes, they can be tainted because it wasn't so funny when you're shooting it. And for me, that just feels like an accomplishment when I'm watching it because it was such a challenge to shoot. Sometimes the reality is you just have to shoot first and ask questions later. Yeah. That's what it is. yeah. I mean, there's so many moments where like,

especially with the doc stuff, where I keep it rolling. Nothing I could ever plan, like some of these best moments. Like, did that just happen? Oh my God, you know what mean? You just have to roll sometimes. You want to plan. And there's this really interesting space between being prepared and allowing things to just breathe and happen, right? That is where a lot of the good stuff really does take place. And also, the struggle is a gift. It is, like lot of times where,

You just somehow get sharp and focused and camaraderie gets built when with everybody, whenever they're sharing the same struggle, like 100 degrees. I think no joke, like all that stuff. No, I think that's an interesting point you bring up too about like, where do you like, there's a fine line from prepare between preparedness and spontaneity when you're on a set. It's like you can only prepare so much and everything's going to go completely wrong. And, know, my AD and I would always joke. He's like, he was like, did you sleep at all? Or were you thinking about everything that could possibly go wrong tomorrow?

And the truth is, as I was always thinking about everything that could possibly go wrong, but again, it's that thing of like, I'm as prepared as I can be for this, and that is all I can do. And then once I get on set, I have to kind of have the flexibility of, you know, the blocking isn't going to be how you thought, you know, in a low budget movie, you don't really get to location scout, you don't get rehearsals. So you really have to, to, I mean, most movies, you know, I don't know, I haven't worked on something except I've worked as a

and I've seen rehearsals and things Which is film school. It's film school. Yeah. That's I've observed. And you see how things function on a larger set, but you kind of are forced to be like, this is, for me, because I was less technical director, I was horrible with blocking. Horrible with blocking. And my AD put me through a boot camp of like, you need to learn how to do this and communicate this.

because this is incredibly important because I kind of was like very like, we'll figure it out, it's comedy. And it's like, no, we don't have the time, we don't have the schedule, we don't have it. So it's like, and he very much, which I was appreciative of, was patient, but had like a hard hand in terms of learning of like, you need to do this so that the set had functions and it's in line with the process of filmmaking right now because there's not a lot of, we don't have a lot of leniency in any department or any time.

we haven't talked much about blocking on this podcast yet, I don't think. It's a massive aspect of directing and making a film, yeah. I mean, it's so foreign at first, it's so weird to think, wait a But then you realize, well, this is where the filmmaking happens. This is a big part of it where how are you going to capture this and how are you gonna use the space? And back to Mike Nichols, I thought he was really good at that. And I think a lot of filmmakers are good about, it's that gray area again, or whatever you wanna call it, where it's like in between,

having your own idea, but also letting the actors fill and play and then having the DP there to also dance, you know, but like, hold up DP, just real quick, let's see what the actors got. Because you don't want to like force a square into a circle hole. Like you want it to be fluid and you want it to be organic, I guess, right? And blocking, it's a lot of that. But one more thing, sorry, is like, I think it's so great, because you know, it's your first film and...

It's just brought blocking is definitely something that I feel like is an acquired thing You know, you have to just continue to do it because it is so weird if it's so strange at first No, it's so weird and it's like, okay, you know, I'm a bit of a people pleaser So it's like, okay, I want to please the actors, but I want to please the DP and I want to please the ad How am I going to look at this in the space that we're now in with the actors for the first time? and sort of

make sure that I am staying true to my vision for the scene, but also, you know, again, like, is this comfortable for the actors? Is this how they can, is there, do they have the freedom to sort of do what they need to with this scene? And also, am I completely screwing my DP, you know, in terms of like their, you know, what they wanted in terms of like how they're going to help me? know, I was in most scenes, so I didn't get to look at monitor.

A lot of was me having complete trust in my DP and me begging her and she was very, very good at it. But like, you know, we just, would sit at the end of the day, me, her and the, and the AD Tyler, and we would be like, I would be like, what can I do better? Like what can we all do better? Was I not present enough for you today? Cause a lot of times she was like, I need you a little bit more because I would be with the actors or I'd be, you know, I'd having to read. And so it really helped me.

Again, because we had no ego and we were friends, we would communicate when we were frustrated with each other. so it was, we were able to sit afterwards, have calm conversations of like, you know, this is where I think I can improve. This is where I think you could improve. This is where I think the department can improve, which was, was very important. And I think a learning experience for us, cause I didn't know a lot of stuff, like in terms of camera technicalities, I didn't, again, with my background, but she did, but she hadn't, you know,

The AD, we all had our weaknesses, but we weren't afraid to sort of voice them. communication, oh, that's so important and not enough of that a lot of times, I feel like. Also just, it's like, wow, it's so beautiful once you actually finally, I mean, I have to speak for myself, once I have finally chilled out and not worried so much, because it's a natural thing to do and you are trying, humans are problem solvers and even when there's nothing to solve, you wanna have a problem to solve.

I think naturally sometimes and like learning how to be stoic or like meditate on things in a healthy way. It's just like life with, know, whatever making whatever you're going to do, making a film included, you know, once you kind of let you know, like it's I think of that scene from Enter the Dragon when Bruce Lee is trapped in this tight space and all he does is he stops fighting and he sits in the Indian style and he just like starts meditating. Nothing he can do. You know what I mean? Nothing he can do.

and he just has this calmness and whenever the time comes, he will then take action. that is, everything's about old movies, I guess, gotta tie everything in. But it seems like, I don't know, yeah, I mean, there's things to learn for sure. And also it makes me think about how when I first started, I was trying to, I was making the things that I wanted to make. And then I started learning, then I started realizing later that I was trying to pay too much homage to past films and filmmakers and then-

Maybe five years ago, I finally felt like I film who I am as a filmmaker. think some people get there quicker, some people get there later. But for me, it was like, oh, okay, this is what gets me off. This is what I'm about. And it feels so great to not have to worry about a damn thing, except for like practical stuff. But I don't torture myself as much anymore. And like, I'm still trying to grow. can't just act like you got everything figured out. But to not have an ego and do what you did, which is to like have clear,

communication at the end of every day is a huge thing, feel like, which I didn't do enough of when I was making my first few films. No, I think that's a testament to like just everyone else like wanting communication. like I think to your point, you know, I certainly think I'm still finding myself in terms of my style and my voice. And I think, you know, the balance of what you're going to pay most attention to on set and then like having the knowledge and the experience to sort of again, like

I think the thing that shocked me the most, which I've said, is the amount of questions that you're fielding as a director, because you're just like, like, and you don't know really what to prioritize and what to say. And I think to your point, like, you honestly have to sort of enter a meditative state while on set, because like, you know, the second that you start to show like anger or like frustration, like, I really do think it trickles down to the rest of the set.

And for me, again, that comes down to like the leadership skill that I was having to learn the entire time of like, okay, like just like, like find a meditative state, take it one by one, answer these questions. Don't show, don't ever get angry with someone because it's not, it's not helpful. I mean, unless, you know, there's anger warranted, but, in my mind it's stress sets are already such stressful places.

There's no need to add stress. And I think that's something I learned too is like, okay, you're to get so many like fucking questions and just like, you need to learn how to like sit and ease your anxieties and ease any frustrations you have and just kind of get the get your answers out there that are supporting your creative, you know, vision for this day, this scene, these actors and do it. And, you know, learn how to be like, need two seconds to answer this. I'm with so and so.

Just so people feel seen and heard, even if it's taking you a minute to get back to them. Also, like documentaries with me, like it's easy for me to feel good about myself. Oh, I got it. I handle it. I'm not managing people like I was in fiction. Like you're managing it. That's the massive difference when it comes to film fiction filmmaking versus nonfiction where it's just you. It's just me mostly with a camera, which I love. Yeah. But that is not the same thing as directing fiction as far as you're not managing anybody. You're just, you know, you're you're operating off instinct, you know, like, but no, like.

Fiction filmmaking is managing and having a tight game. It's so, so schedule-based. And like you're saying, whenever I've done doc stuff, there's no schedule. There's maybe we're going to meet here at 2 PM and shoot for two hours. the idea of, you know, there's a schedule every single day and you have to hit it. And there are repercussions if you don't. And, you know, it costs money and people's time. And also it's being mindful that people are giving you their time and there's, you know,

parameters around those with rules and guilds and stuff. And I think there's so much you just learn that you can't be taught until you're thrown into it. There's so much that we in line producing something or in looking at the budget or dealing with guilds or dealing with everything on a production side of something, which I think a lot of times on lower budget things, most directors are also producing in some capacity because like,

It's that thing of like, it's not really gonna get done unless you are doing it and passionate and the weeds with people. That is the beauty of documentary filmmaking. It can be more spontaneous, you know? And it's liberating in that way. It's liberating in that way. But again, I think it's also thrilling to be able to leave and say, we hit everything on the schedule today. I'm super proud. feel more fulfilled. the collaboration is just so.

Great. mean, and also I think it's important to, you're not going to be perfect as a director or as a human being. And it's important to not beat yourself up too much, to learn, but not to just not, hang, don't, don't hang around with your shoulders slumped all day, you know, like learn and move on. think that's super duper important. Yeah, absolutely. think you have to let things roll off your back and people are going to get frustrated and take it out on you because you are the person that is answering the questions. And it's kind of like not taking things personally, which is really difficult, but even that's like in

in post and with reviews and with everything it's learning that you don't take things too personally and you made this and you're proud of it and not everyone's going to like everything. That's something that you learn quickly, guess. I have learned a lot of times. I don't go on letterbox. That's not my platform choice, you know, some people read the reviews, some people don't, but I think

All in all, I struggle with it and I think everyone does. Why wouldn't you? Making something creative is very, making something and putting it out in world is super vulnerable. You want people to like it. Even if some people would pretend like they don't want to make people happy or they don't care what people think, get out of here. Like everybody cares. Oh, for sure. I would love making a film. If you didn't care, you wouldn't make a film. Exactly. I love everyone like movie and everyone doesn't and everyone won't and that's totally fine. But that's something that you just have to.

come to accept and the same thing on set, you might not get along with everyone and that's fine. Not everyone has to love you. You don't have time to make everyone be your best friend. You do have time to earn people's respect and treat people well and their reactions to that is, you know, is a different thing. But you don't have time to make everyone your best friend, but you do have to learn how to, again, like you said, it's really important to manage people and be respectful of their time and their job and understand what they do. So you are able to

process the questions quicker. you know what, to your point, if you know what the grip and the electric and every single person's thing on set, you kind of know what they're doing. So you're not going to interrupt them. Yeah. You're not going to interrupt them mid rigging or mid whatever and be like, Hey, you do do do, because you're going to know that, this is a priority just in a, you know, and I think that's a great thing. Again, my AD was very adamant about process and that was like, you know, we would always make fun of him about it, but it was true in the end. is a process.

The context is important, you know? What is that person doing over there? Yeah. You know, it's like the scene from Aviator. Again, I'm tying it into an old movie. It's like, I'm doing over there. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a balance. Directing is a balance, especially fiction filmmaking. You've got to manage people, but you also have to know when to shift the gear back in the direction of like, what do you need for your film? What does your film need? What's best for your film? And it's never going to always be in alignment. No. Post-production, editing, comedy, pacing.

et cetera, talk about the editing process and like how you kind of, how do know when you found the right edit for a scene? Editing comedy is so hard because I think you're, you know, everyone, like I got the advice of focus on story first, like focus on the scene structure and the story and then sprinkle the comedy on.

But time and time again, I would ignore that and just be like, okay, I need to make this as funny as possible off the bat. And if I'm not laughing, the scene's failed. And so I think when I finally, you know, honestly got more experience in the edit and edited things that are sketches in short form, that's much easier than stringing all this together and having it work. And there was one scene in particular where I was going jokes first, story second.

And I didn't realize even until the last week of the edit, was like, oh my God, like this is such a pivotal moment in story. And I need to stop trying to make it so funny. cut out, I added a lot of improv and cut out most of our like, like our actual writing. I was like, oh my God, the scene doesn't have a purpose. So it just feels like a sketch. So I need to put back in the purpose of the scene and then I can look at it again. And so I think once I sort of.

became better at that and wasn't like, I'm gonna make this the funniest thing ever, that I started to find my groove with editors. And again, like I had very talented people working with me and pacing, I think has a lot to do with a great editor and comedy specifically, you have to pace it correctly, or it's just like dragging here. And they're certain, I'll watch it now and be like, ooh, like I would have paced this in certain way, know? It's everything you wanna do, you could edit forever if you wanted. Your pacing was good, it was pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, it was nice.

And I bring up pacing because of my, I have scars, Robin, actor for hire, it was, I look back at it now, I'm like, shit, why is this scene so awkward? Why did I have this three seconds of fucking awkward pause here? And I know why at the time, because I thought it was just funny to be, you know, it's a scene where an actor's in a audition. And of course, like you want to amp up the awkwardness to feel more for the character and be there.

But it was just a little bit too much, you know, where it's like pacing is so so important with the film, but especially with comedy. I think Frank Capra was the guy that when I saw a quote from him, he was saying how if you want a film to feel like regular life for an audience not to get like bored, then you have to like double time it like whatever it would be in real life, like make that twice as fast. Depending on how you cut it or how you know how you have the actors delivering the lines. And I feel like you you definitely had this like

kind of reminded me of those older like the 50s comedies, know, like Billy water kind of like thing. I think that pace in it's so hard. And I also think like, like you're saying in terms of like pacing and awkwardness and jokes, I think a lot of times we would shove two, three jokes in and the two jokes would overshadow the funniest one. So it was basically like going back through and being like, like this one joke is funnier than all three of these in here. Let's take two jokes out, see how the pacing is and see if that joke gets a

a bigger laugh. So it was learning little tricks like that, that I'm sure come with time and watching. you know, I think again, like there were moments where, especially if you write what you're directing, where you're like, oh, I love that line so much, but like it's, know, I got to kill the puppy. Yeah. It's not working. And then it's like, who cares? It's about like, this is not the script. You're basically, you know, you have a moment to take out weak story moments and weak.

Moments in terms of transitions with scenes that you had on the page that you didn't realize till you were shooting you have a moment think about better So, you know again, that's the thing about balance between sticking to the script but also allowing there to be spontaneity in the in post and in Production. Yeah, and you can see I can think of films where like they didn't do that where they just stuck with the gag and they didn't honor the story and like they're Forgetful there. They're not

They're not fan favorites because people, even if they don't know it, they just want to feel like they're connected with the character. Yeah, and story gives you that proper story. Yeah. Okay, so like Tribeca, what was it kind of like, your film's done, you feel good enough about it, what was the path between finished film and Tribeca premiere? We had turned in a rough cut to a couple festivals.

like the fall after we shot in the summer. I think that I, seeing, I think they joked that like, you're really happy with the dailies and then your first cut, you're like, what is this? Like I've heard that's a common thing. I hope it is. Cause you're just like, wait, this isn't what I saw. And you're like, well now it's gonna look a lot different altogether. But I think the best moment was like, we finished the edit and we had a little bit, we had submitted to Tribeca without sound and color.

And so I think it was an, one, it's an amazing thing to get in and know that you get to show your, again, having a comedy be shown in a theater and at such an amazing festival like Tribeca was super cool and wonderful. And I was really excited for us and the cast and the crew, because everyone works so hard on a film that when that happens, like, great, they're going to get, like they can maybe come to New York and the gets to see it. So we were all like,

super grateful and excited. it's like validation too. It's like, man. Extreme validation. And also like then once we were in there was a little bit of a weight off and that I felt that I, you you're so stressed in the edit and I got to experience the mix and the, you know, the color with a little less weight. And I think I allowed myself to enjoy that experience because it's so wonderful to see something come together. And for me, sound and color can just

just elevate and we had to tell people that it just elevates it to a point where you're like, oh my God, like this is so amazing. Can we talk about sound design real quick? Because I didn't, you know, I've always thought it was important. It's an important aspect. But I didn't fully, really fully dive into sound design until I did something not a comedy. Like when I switched gears and did a crime film, which, you know, anyways, it is like such a main character when it comes to certain genres, you know.

my God, it's like everything. So now, of course, it's like even with documentaries, whatever you're making, it's like it's such a taken for granted thing where if it's not there, then it feels flat. But if it is there, it's not. Nobody ever says, wow, unless they're filmmaker, nobody ever says, wow, what sound design? That was a great sound design. Yeah, it is so crucial as is coloring. Coloring can be undervalued as well, you know, and it's such a tricky thing to get right. I don't need to mess with that. I'd do if anything I do a little bit, but

Coloring is weird to me. Like how do you, to be a colorist, you gotta be in a different spectrum I feel like. Correct. I think for both, I think also like on the subject of sound, like for me, I think like we worked with this place, Immersive Sound, and they did an amazing job. And we sat down with them and all of their ideas to make the movie funnier. I was like, that's amazing. Like how did you think that? And they really had a creative eye for filling in.

some of the awkward spaces, the awkward beats, things that we not actually could fix with an edit. And they were like, well, I feel like this would be funnier if like, you know, there was one example of there was just like little moments, you know, and, then my producer, Maria Globo was like, there's this one scene in a motel and she's like, wouldn't it be funny if there was just like a headboard going in the background, just put it in. And I was like, that's, that's funny. Is that going to work? And they did it and it sounded incredible. And it was Marie's idea, but they brought ideas like that consistently themselves to add. And again, that's the

To me, the best part is the collaboration of like what all of these incredibly talented people are bringing to your thing that you wrote and you made and they would come up with these ideas. Same with the colorists that we worked with here, Light Iron and they were so wonderful and they were do things where you're like, how, like to your point, like, how does your brain go that way? And then the Post-Rest of Silk, our music supervisors that we worked with, Radish, they would, you that you...

One big thing I've had to let go of, I'm sure you know this too, is like, and I've always talked to other directors, is like, you're not gonna get the song. You have the song, no matter what, the, you know, like, you know, it's difficult. You think, this is an indie song that I found that I love, I love this band. It's like, no, it's like, it's really hard to get music rights. But the way that music supervisor Radish did, where they'd be like, I'd like, I love this song. And they'd like, probably can't get it. They would come back with the playlist that was some of the best.

music substitutes elevated better than I thought up and you're like wow this entire thing everyone is so good at what they do and and there's so many areas of it that come in to make this final product where you're like I don't know what I would have done without anyone. Music licensing is my hell like I produced this fairly high budget short film great filmmakers great directors you're actually going to meet them in Key West.

they're wonderful, great, but Garrett really, really, really, really, really wanted stuck in the middle with you for this like mid point moment. Right off the bat, I'm like, we can do anything you want to do, but it's going to cost a lot of money. And he's like, that's fine. I'm like, well, but I'm not done yet. Also, it's going to be, it's going to take forever to get if they potentially approve it. And so he wanted to go for it and we did it. And we ended up ultimately not going with it because

You gotta get both sides. gotta license, you know, the person that, whoever owns the publishing rights and also whoever has the recording rights. And it's usually some massive conglomerate. know, you and me or Sony, which in this case both. And it's like, bro, like they wanted, I think, well, it would have been about 13 or 14 grand just to use it for two years. Yeah. limited release. Do you really want this? Also, it's a short film. And so.

It was a reminder for me, a very recent reminder of how terrible it is to try to get a big old popular song. That being said, it's so great whenever you find, I have a music supervisor who I love, Becca Nelson. she, same thing with like when you're talking about Radish where like I give her my dream, you know, soundtrack. And then she sends me 300 options that fit that same tone. honestly, like a lot of times I like it even more. Yeah, exactly. You're like, wow.

like this song is, know, and it's such a, there's such cool jobs that require so much work and so much expertise. Yes. And that's why I think this podcast is important because it's like, filmmaking is so great and fun, but there's so much to it. And it's just nice to sit back and talk about it and analyze and like look in the toolbox and like, shit, pacing. We haven't talked about that blocking. man, sound design. Okay. Yeah. And everybody has these different experiences and these different collaborations. And I look at it as just like,

free information, everybody, if you want it. Yeah, yeah. I it's great. I love hearing, you know, that's great thing about going to film festivals is hearing everyone else's experience and also like their tidbits or like if they're further along in their career than you or you're in the same place and their process and how they did post, did they edit the movie themselves? How did they edit it themselves? Like that's beyond me. And just like learning that. I think that's what's great about film podcasts and just festivals is

gaining information from other people's experiences. I have learned so much by doing this, even like just thinking differently, just thinking differently. My friend, Ellen, always says, think different. I know you already said that today. But you know, it's like even this, I'll wrap this up, but there's this very observational documentary, three and a half hours long. It premiered at New York Film Festival called Direct Action. And I'm watching this movie. interviewed the director and I'm like, and a half hours. And I had my honest assumptions of like, I don't know. And I put it on and it's literally,

a series of very long takes, 15 to 20 minutes, sometimes static camera. And I'm like, and then I suddenly just became hypnotized and mesmerized. And then I just watched the whole thing and it was like, this is so special. And then that made me, that shifted my whole, went in this one week, like the week long rabbit hole of just observational cinema and these types of documentaries. like, just, this is gonna affect, this is kind of how I'm trying to

somewhat go about this documentary across the street. it's just not even just information, it's inspiration as well. And we need it because this shit's hard. Filmmaking is not easy. It's fun, but it's also you got to pay to play. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. OK, so last question for you. How long have you been a filmmaker or at least wanted to be a filmmaker? I think probably not probably like 10 years since I graduated school after I was working in an office as an assistant, I think I.

probably nine or 10 years, nine years is more realistic. What do feel like the biggest thing that you've taken away from your journey so far could be? You know, if you could go back in time 10 years ago when you first said, I want to be a filmmaker, like, what would you tell yourself? I think patience and resilience is key. I think there is such a wonderful feeling of being so excited about getting something made and this, you know, when you're younger, you're like, I want it to happen now, I need it to happen now. And I think

Patience resilience also trusting that like the more time you have with something the better it will be You know, there's scripts that I've wrote six years ago that I would Not want to ever see the light of day that just with my own experience and things I feel like they will hopefully come out at the right moment and it's better that they come out You know with me having six years less of writing experience and look I haven't been doing this a long time But I think for me there are people who are super resilient and super patient and I hope you know

I have had a leg up in many ways and I don't discount that or ever not think that. I think like, even so it's always been very instilled in me that patience, resilience and kindness is sort of the key to hanging on. And that is what I would continue to tell is just like, keep on keeping on, keep doing it. Like you're going to hit speed bumps. You're going to get a lot of no's, you're going to get a lot of rejections, but don't let that discourage you. And it might take you a really long time to get something made.

But if you love it, keep writing, keep making, you know, web series and things that you want to do, because it's just building out your portfolio to have more to support your later work. And again, I probably, if I watched some of my older stuff, I'd be embarrassed, but at least I did it and it helped me sort of hone my own comedic voice. And yeah. I bet there's also stuff too that you would rewatch and say, that was actually pretty good. Yeah, there's some stuff I'm like, that's funny, that holds up.