E38 • Meta Absurdism Explored Through Docu-Fiction • PASQUAL GUTIERREZ & BEN MULLINKOSSON, dirs. of ‘Serious People’ at the Sundance Film Festival

Co-directors Pasqual Gutierrez & Ben Mullinkosson blur the lines between fiction and non-fiction with their latest film “Serious People”, which just had its World Premiere at the Sundance Film Festival.

Ben discusses his filmmaking journey from Chicago to Shanghai and Pasqual shares the inspiration behind their film, which stemmed from a vivid dream he had, as well as real life - and also from the past works of Roy Andersson (“A Pigeon Sat on a Branch”) and Ruben Östlund (“Triangle of Sadness”). The discussion delves into the challenges of blending fiction and nonfiction, the importance of casting the right talent, and the creative process of improvisation. 

They reflect on the personal relationships that influenced the film and the unique challenges of co-directing with a partner. They also dive into the art of long takes, the concept of auto-fiction, and the ethical considerations in documentary filmmaking. They speak about the collaborative spirit that drove the project forward, culminating in their acceptance into Sundance.

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Chapters

• 0:01 Past Present Feature, Hosted by Marcus Mizelle
• 0:21 Introducing Pasqual Gutierrez & Ben Mullinkosson, dirs. of "Serious People" at Sundance
• 1:13 Early Filmmakers and Films in LA
• 3:10 The Dream: The Birth of "Serious People"
• 6:28 Navigating the Meta: Blurring Lines of Fiction and Nonfiction
• 11:00 Casting Choices: Finding the Right Talent
• 13:16 The Creative Process: Improvisation and Collaboration + "American Movie" dir. by Chris Smith
• 17:00 Production
• 19:03 Past Inspo: Roy Andersson (“A Pigeon Sat on a Branch”) and Ruben Östlund (“Triangle of Sadness”)
• 21:43 Balancing Personal and Professional Lives
• 27:44 Roy Andersson pt. 2 + Cinematography
• 33:07 RIP David Lynch
• 35:42 The Concept of Auto-Fiction in Film
• 39:21 Ethics in (Documentary) Filmmaking
• 44:48 Memorable Moments from Making "Serious People"
• 48:34 Getting Into Sundance
• 50:11 Shared Filmmaking Wisdom: 1) Chill The Fuck Out 2) If You're Scared to do it, DO IT.

Transcript

Marcus Mizelle (00:21)
Co-directors Pascual Gutierrez Ben Mullenkasten blur the lines between fiction and nonfiction with their latest film, Serious People, which just had its world premiere at the Sundance Film Festival.

Ben discusses his filmmaking journey from Chicago to Shanghai, and Pascual shares the inspiration behind their film, which stemmed from a vivid dream he had, as well as real life, and also from the past works of Roy Anderson and Ruben Oselen. The discussion delves into the challenges of blending fiction and nonfiction.

the importance of casting the right talent, and the creative process of improvisation. They reflect on the personal relationships that influence the film and the unique challenges of co-directing with a partner. They also dive into the art of long takes, the concept of auto-fiction, and the ethical considerations in documentary filmmaking. They speak about the collaborative spirit that drove the project forward, culminating in their acceptance into Sundance.

Marcus Mizelle (01:13)
So Ben, you are a Chicago guy. How did you end up in Shanghai? Oh yeah, so Pascual and I actually got into documentary filmmaking together in around, what year was that? That was like 2011, 2012? so we started learning together around the same time and then...

We both worked in LA doing commercials and branded content and I did one Facebook commercial and I was like, fuck it guys, I'm out of here. And I moved to China to go skateboarding because China is the it's the best place for skateboarding on the planet right now because it's modernizing so fast. So the spots are really good for skateboarding. But yeah, that aside, I've been there now for eight years and I love it. And this, the idea for this movie,

actually started when Pascual and I were living in LA together shortly after 2012, so maybe 2013, 2014. We were living at a house together close to downtown called Stacks. And at that time we were being kind of pretentious filmmakers, filming each other. We had an Instagram called Pretentious Fucks. Okay, so you were self-aware at least.

self-aware or pretentious? Yeah, I think the auto-fiction element started at that time period and we wanted to make a film together, but we didn't know, we didn't have the resources or the narrative arc at the time. And so since 2014, I feel like Pasquale and I have been talking about random ideas that we could try to shoot together. think like five years ago, I tried to film Pasquale and his wife, Christine getting married.

but that film didn't work out. And then finally, Pusk Wall had a dream and hit me up. And yeah, you can elaborate on the dream if you gonna ask you about the dream. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, the dream happened. My wife was pregnant. I was having some anxiety about the work-life balance. was pretty bad at the time. I was working a bunch and it was kind of a...

challenging first trimester and I was with her in New York and I had this super vivid dream that was basically me casting this doppelganger to play me and fulfill my work duties so that I could be this present father and that was like basically all in this dream and I woke up I was super sweaty

I told my wife about it. I was like, what do you think about this? this, is there like a, should we do something about this? And she's like, you should just make, just try to make it, just try to make it a film. It sounds hilarious. And of course, you know, I called Ben, Ben was the first person I called and was like, dude, you got to come back from China. We got to make this serious people. Ben? Because you guys, you guys have history with the, you guys were

and love with nonfiction at the same time, et cetera, you guys came up together? Yeah, we did come up together. And I think also, you know, I've always loved Ben's work. Like this is this was my first foray into feature filmmaking, you know, in real life. I do a lot of music videos. That's who I play as myself in this film, obviously have long form aspirations. And, you know, I love the work that Ben did, especially being this kind of verite observational filmmaker. I think his work.

really lends itself to that nicely. And he's just my friend, you know, we're homies, like we have that long standing relationship and I, and like he knows the friend group super, super well. He's part of the friend group, you know, even though he hadn't been in LA for a couple of years, you know, everybody loves Ben. And I knew that someone like that was gonna be super important and like paramount to making this film because it was gonna be a bunch of.

real people having conversations and I didn't want to have like, you know, some random person up in here filming. It's like, dude, it's got to be Ben, you know? Yeah. So that's where that came from. And dude, I will, I will say like, timing wise, because my wife was pregnant, you know, in real life, this is all stuff that's happening, you know, in tandem with the production of the film, we did start production.

like a little earlier without Ben and it was just me and it was so hard dude because. you're in it and you're trying to direct. Yeah, you know, I'm setting up the camera. I'm trying to do these things. I'm trying to make it feel doc. I'm trying to make it feel authentic, but then I'm so self aware of the whole thing. And then I'm running across the street, trying to sit down, having conversations with my wife or whatever. It's got to affect your performance or quote unquote performance. yeah. I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Big time.

It reminds me of a movie that I've made. The first feature I attempted to make back in North Carolina where I'm from with me and one friend and I was in it as well. Man, yeah, that's the only time I've ever acted and tried to direct at the same time. It's fucking terrible. But anyways, was there a moment where you always sure that it should be kind of, that you should keep your names and keep a sense of your real self and like, would you say it's autobiographical in a way? I mean, where is the line between?

Yeah. don't know, fiction and nonfiction here. I think it was always meant to be reflection of my reality. And I feel like the strength of the film is that, you know, you see these conversations and you can understand that there's such a deep chemistry between all of these people that's very long standing. And I think when you think about the doppelgangers character Miguel coming into this as

more or less a disruptor. You can really feel that. It's very palpable on screen. we want to, mean, and Ben, I'll let you talk to this. Cause when Ben came, he was like, we're making this a doc. Yeah. I that was the original thought process was that it's going to be a cinematic observational documentary. I didn't think we were going to really like set anything up.

I mean, Pasquale and I, we were passing a script back and forth on a Google doc, but even that, you create a script when you make a documentary the same way and you even write like tentative lines of dialogue. But we kind of tried to keep the dialogue in this a little bit open-ended so everyone could improvise and play a version of themselves. But nonetheless, even from the get-go, because Pasquale is one of the most eloquent and hilarious

friends that I have. And so I knew that he would be like a movie star immediately. even even on a documentary level. And I also think what was really exciting to me about this is that Pasquale is a really good writer. Like he wrote this novel that isn't out yet, but it's like it's so good. So I knew that like our collaboration using Pasquale's skill sets on camera or just being himself also with his writing.

in this more documentary format could be a really interesting blending of genre. yeah, when I arrived in LA, I was thinking, like, we'll probably make this more doc style. But as it turned out, everyone is so busy in the film because everyone's a director. Most of, like, we've seen Pasquale's wife is, she was pregnant and also directing a commercial at the time. And Raoul,

Pasquale's partner was also directing a commercial at the time, so he had only a couple of days where we could schedule around him. So it kind of turned into just a scheduling thing of like, okay, we need to film this scene on this day, and we need to film multiple scenes back to back. So we started to schedule it almost the way you schedule a fiction film. But then everyone is playing themselves, so it's not like the traditional, you know.

Did you ever get lost in the meta of it all? it seems it can be confusing if you're inside of it. Were there moments where you're like, wait a minute, you had to stop and like just readjust and reassess? 100%. 100%. It was, I think we got halfway through the film and there was a big come to Jesus moment with the whole thing, you know, it was, and it's funny because I wanted to be

naively optimistic about the whole process thinking that it was going to be super just like fun and games the whole time. But I would say probably for myself more, more than anybody else, it had some ramifications in my real life, you know, it was really challenging on my relationships with both my partner, both of my partners, my creative partner, and also my my life partner. Because you know, they're

signing up for this film and they're playing these versions of themselves, but they're bleeding far beyond the screen, you know? That conversation on the roof between Christine and myself is very real, you know? Like, I wasn't out the night before partying with Miguel, but I was out.

the night before working on this film. And so those frustrations that she feels are being manifested in a way that feels super authentic and true. Yeah, nice, nice, nice. Fucking Miguel. Miguel. Miguel? Miguel. Miguel. What a guy. What a character. Fuck, man. This shit's hilarious. He's hilarious. I love how you guys did a great job of just the trajectory of the monster being created.

You know, by the end it was so awkward. God, that last scene is so awkward. It's like, god. You know? Just these one-liners that Miguel has. Like, there's some bangers in there. How did you find this guy? Who is this actor? What is his name? His name is Miguel Huerta. Well, there you go. Of course, yes. So you kept his first name too. I kept his real name. So funny. Did you cast him similar to the movie storyline?

Miguel's character, he was someone that I had in a short film that I did with Raul prior to Serious People. So he was someone that we had casted. But even then, he was like a first time actor. He's not from the industry. He didn't have, you know, acting classes and come up in that traditional way. Which is what I love about him. Yeah. He really has aspirations to break through. And, you know, in real life, I

like really love this guy. I think he's such a hard worker. He's an amazing kid, amazing young man. But he kind of plays a version of the character that he played in the short film. So I knew he would do a great job at this. Also, he was so excited to work like that, that ethos and that work ethic that he had, he applies towards anything.

And when we kind of explained the premise of the film to him, which was very conceptual, you know, it wasn't like a traditional, here's the script, buddy, read the lines, let's go, let's get it. It was more of like ideas and character arcs and personality traits and things like that. And he really latched onto it super well. And he just knew how to kind of press roles buttons as well because we had worked together prior.

on our previous film and spent a lot of time together. I think, yeah, that's really, I think the heart. Nice, there was a scene in the office about midway, a little past midway through where he just gives Raul some shit and it was great. Yeah, how much improv? How much improv, how loose was it? I mean, dude, we have a script, but it was a Google doc. Love that, love that. For the record.

But it's cool because it doesn't feel like there's concrete poured on top, right? It's not like, like a script can feel kind of like constrained, constraining. And this movie reminds me of a movie that we made years ago, 10 years ago now, I'm calling it Actor for Hire. But it came about with my friend Jesse, who just kept getting into these ridiculous situations in LA. And eventually I'm like, we just have to film something, let's just film something. And so we did the same thing. We kept everybody's real name, very...

pulled from like real life and then just exaggerated the hell out of it from there. And it turned out pretty well. I love movies about movies and about industry people and especially about directors. It's so fun. And in the vein of, in the tone of this podcast, it reminded me of, I thought about American movie. Remember that documentary? Oh yeah. Wow. Haven't thought about that in so long. I love that movie. Oh, so good. I never forget that movie. So was that one that came to mind and- I was gonna add that as a reference. And then for some reason, Miguel-

Yeah, and like you guys, so you guys have seen that. Yeah, I haven't seen it in a minute. Because it's a movie about a guy trying to make a movie with his sidekick, right? I mean, it's very kind of sad. And then Miguel reminded me of, for some reason, two different characters in Napoleon Dynamite. I don't know why. Maybe it's because, like the Rico character and the Pedro character, just because they were so new, you'd never seen these actors before, but they were so enjoyable, so colorful. And it's like, who the hell is this guy?

And then I think also just like a lot of the kind of scenarios you guys created and a lot of the props or a lot of the ideas, the car, the the aesthetics of this movie really helped elevate it too. know, like the fact that you set up him being a boxer, which I knew was going to come around somehow. I didn't know how, just the whole look of it. mean, him match, the fucking concept was funny. Like the doppelganger concept is funny and him kind of having to him having to look like you and like a knockoff version of you is just a

Good shit. Like the glasses? the glasses. What about the glasses? Yeah, for sure. Ben's got some great ideas about trying to make some merch out of the glasses. I would say which is a great idea. Yeah. I mean, I don't know, Ben. I'll let you add to it. mean, for the glasses, it's kind of a trope, I think, for a lot of flashy directors to be wearing sunglasses all the time. So that's kind of part of where that idea came from.

But also there was this underlying theme which was that if you watch the film closely, you know, my character, the version of myself that I'm playing, I'm always wearing sunglasses whenever I'm not home. And that's kind of this thing we are playing with, which is that when you're inside the house, when you're with Christine and myself, it's very close to what's really happening.

in our lives and our relationship and it's the real pregnancy and it's the real kind of trepidation around approaching parenthood, et cetera, et cetera. Those are real conversations with real people. But when you go outside, there's a little bit more of a facade to it, you know, when you have these glasses on. Makes sense. Kenny Powers vibes to East Bonadio. Huge. I've worked on that by the way, first two seasons. I was a grip for a while. But no, it's like memorable, memorable characters, memorable.

moments, you know, which is crazy how you can just do that with like little things too, right? Like even for the pair of sunglasses, a hairstyle, you know, going beyond just like what the character's doing. So how long did you guys shoot this? Was it like a slow burn or did you guys kind of knock it out quick? What was it like? Yeah. So I think Pascual hit me up in October of 2023. And then we were shooting in

November or no, I think it was a little longer actually. My timeline is off. We basically from Pescual's dream to production. think there was five months and production took place over the course of two and a half months. We shot probably two or three times a day. I mean at the end we only shot 22 days of footage. It's not like a yeah, which is crazy to me coming from the last project I worked on we shot.

125 days of footage over the course of five years. my gosh, documentary. Yeah, exactly. it was all very quick. But I will say, you know, Pasquale always says this, every time we shoot, every time we shot, it was a small miracle because this was just a very small group of people were like, okay, where are we getting the camera from today?

who's gonna be the cinematographer? Do we have all the lobs? Do we need to run and grab a lob from someone else? It was all, and there's, I think there's like maybe, there's probably less than five scenes that have lighting in it. It's all just like natural lighting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And these cameras are so fucking sensitive these days and the lenses. mean, you gotta know how to use them, but, and I don't wanna make it about cinematography too much, but what did y'all shoot on? Was that red or what is that? What camera was that?

was a combination of cameras. We shot on the Alexa LF. We shot on the Alexa Mini. Did we shoot on anything else? There's like a car mount shot on a smaller, I forget the Sony name. What about shooting for three? What was the decision behind that? we've got to shoot for three. Yeah, I mean, I think we were really inspired by filmmakers like Roy Anderson and

Ruben Ausland and movies like Dina, if you've seen that too, that were shot for three. So we were, think, you know, another thing about the Alexa mini LF is that when you shoot open gate, it creates this four three. So our, our aspect ratio isn't exactly four three. It's like, I forget the number. It's like 1.4 or something. Okay. So it's a little off that. Yeah. You know what?

It gave me Triangle of Sadness vibes for sure. The first third of that film also, especially the opening of your film with the casting and all this. Yeah, I love that movie so much. Everybody loves that movie. I love that movie, Triangle of Sadness. Just the whole kind of model opening of that. Yeah, total vibes. So you guys are Oztlen fans then? Huge. Yeah, he's so good. He's so good. His next movie is coming. Are they filming his movie right now? It takes place entirely on an airplane? Some sort of satire on an airplane?

cannot wait for that. I can't wait. Dina is an eccentric and outspoken woman who invites her fiance Scott to move in with her. The couple face many challenges as Dina copes with a mental disability. What is it about this movie that you like so much besides the shot in four three, I guess? I think really the cinematography. I mean, it's also a love story. I mean, I think serious people is kind of a love story too in a lot of ways. I mean, he's incited by love to maintain, guess. How would you say it's a love story? Yeah, I mean,

Pasquale, feel free to jump in any point too. But I mean, I think that Pasquale and Christine have a really special relationship where in real life, Christine is allowing Pasquale to make this film while she's pregnant. And then in the film, she's able to argue with Pasquale about this doppelganger project. it's like this almost this therapy that's happening where Christine and Pasquale get to really be vulnerable in front of each other.

on camera, even though they're talking about this specific project in the movie with Miguel, but it's like a way of referring to the process of making this film. So there's this reality there. Yeah, like there's this meta layer. And I think, I think it's really beautiful. feel like Pasquale and Christine have this really vulnerable and honest relationship where they can, they've, they've done it. And they're also, you know, like keep in mind in our friend group in LA.

Pasquale and Christine are the first of us to have a baby. And so they're kind of like, you know, leading our group in a lot of ways. it reminds me of what you said, Pasquale, in your director's statement about having to give up weekday dinners. Yeah. That's real shit. I have a five year old. Oh yeah. Very real man. You can do it. Yeah. Well, I co-parent, I mean, it's different because I have

half the time I have off, but then I'm trying to recuperate. But it's like you gotta pick your battles. Even then, it's like weekdays or school nights for sure. But also, how old's your kid now? She's 11 months. Okay, okay, so you're, wow. Yeah, so right online with the film. wow. Wow. Yeah. Was there any sort of real life kind of big struggles with you and Christina? Is it Christine? I'm sorry, Christine Christina?

Christine, yeah. Christine, is there anything in, yeah, that you guys had to go through while you were making this movie? Besides the obvious stuff of juggling pregnancy. I think it was a lot of the obvious stuff that you see in the film that was a lot of what it was. It's like, Christine's also director. All these characters are actually directors, I think, for the most part, which is really funny. But that was something that we were really trying to figure out how to navigate because you know how it is.

as a fellow filmmaker, it's not your nine to five, you know what I mean? It ebbs and it flows and it's feast and it's famine. And so just figuring out how you schedule time, what is your relationship with time and how is that going to change was something that was definitely on the forefront of both of our minds and I think was manifesting its way in various forms of conflict and tension that you can feel in the film for sure. Yeah.

What about you guys directing together? Any, I don't know, trickier moments? I mean, I would say my biggest conflict wasn't necessarily with Ben. It was more so just the film as an entity. You know, like what happened was when the film started taking off in the way that it was, it was very challenging and like we would be shooting scenes and Christine in real life would be like, hey, where the hell are you? Like.

you need to fucking come home right now, you know? And I was feeling that a lot, you know? And a lot of it was also the same with what was actually happening with Raul and myself. We were still trying to manage how to do jobs, but we were making this film. And you can only be in one place at a time, and that's what this film was about. And that was very much the conflict that was kind of coming from the real world into this film.

in this weird meta like manifestation. I think I would have a lot of anxiety towards the end of production. remember, you probably remember Ben, there was one scene we were trying to shoot and I was like, fuck it, man, I gotta go. I'm leaving, I'm done. You know, like I gotta go home now. Christine's upset. You know, I gotta go. What scene, I'm curious. It's actually not in the film. okay. Yeah, it's not in the film. Not in the film. had an alt ending at one point. I mean, I don't know. I work with a partner, like Rose, my partner. Sure, sure, sure, sure.

We work together all the time. And also like, dude, because I'm acting in this film, like it was amazing. Like it's like Ben was able to be like fully focused on capturing that like Roy Anderson-esque quality of this film in a way that allowed me to feel like safe and present with these characters who are all non-actors because in a way I'm directing them by speaking to them. Like I was...

navigating conversations and I was pushing conversations one way or pulling them another way because I'm in so many scenes and it was really difficult for me to do that all by myself in the beginning of the film because I was also thinking in the back of my mind like, how does this shit look? How does this shit sound? How is this, you know? And so it was, I don't know. Is that if you want to add to that? Yeah, I got to, have one, there's one funny memory. There was one.

scene we were shooting with, you remember Jen, who is Christine's friend who has a romance with Miguel. There was one scene that we were shooting inside of Pasquale and Christine's living room and it was like the end of a 12-hour day and everyone was there and we just couldn't get the take. Like things just kept going wrong and I remember

Like things were going right and then I was doing DIT at the same time as the scene happening because you know, we're just, everyone's doing everything. So I'm like dumping the card and then I remember the scene is going really well and then I dropped the card reader on the ground and everyone in the scene just like looks over and totally blows the take.

We're like, oh, we gotta go again. And then we went for it again and I did the same thing. I think I dropped like the card reader a couple times. Interesting. And everyone was just like, the temperature in the room was just rising and everyone was getting stressed out. That 12 hour mark, something fierce. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I remember we had like, I remember that moment, all of us, everyone involved. wasn't just like, it was the, the, the DPs at the time were, were angry and like,

I remember Teddy, who one of our producers comes from an acting background. He was in the film Miss Purple as one of the lead actors that played at Sunnets a couple of years ago. And he was helping coach everyone in the scene as like, okay, you need to drive this in a way. You need to get upset over here, giving feedback. so he was getting upset. Everyone was like, this was kind of like a boiling point at, I remember. It's contagious too, isn't it? Everything's contagious. The energy's contagious. Yeah.

Looking back at it now, I'm just like, that was hilarious. The scene didn't even make the movie. Wow. Roy Anderson. I have a confession. I haven't seen any of his stuff, but I'm glad this is why I love this podcast. Cause it's like, I'm going to watch this stuff now. Uh, he's a Swedish film director best known for his distinctive style of absurdist humor and melancholic depictions of human life. Personal style is characterized by long takes. he's in stiff care, uh, caricaturing of Swedish culture.

So he's, yeah, Ru and Oatland kind of vibes, but ahead of, you know, been around much longer, 81 years old. So this guy, you love him? yeah. What's like the one movie if you had to pick? I mean, Pigeon's Island on a Branch probably is like his most well-known film. I mean, the thing about Roy is there's a lot about him that feels intangible. You know, it's just these long, long scenes without any cuts.

Love it. And they have sometimes they resolve, sometimes they don't. Sometimes it's just a moment. And sometimes it's absurd and subtract. I think that's what he's really good at. But he's also like such a visual artist. I mean, like from what I've read about Roy, like he spends, you know, tons of time setting up one single frame. And the intention is for you to look at that frame and never cut away from it. And so obviously with serious people like

We didn't have the tools that Roy has. We were not spending like a day or half a day lighting the bar, you know, or my house for that. So, you know, it was the ethos of him and the inspiration around him. think that we wanted to like try to apply that to quote unquote real life as much as possible, I think. yeah, he's an observational cinema guy, you would say that's his kind of thing. Well, it's kind of like a

when you watch it, almost feels like you're watching real life, it's, it's very, everything he does is very set up and very art directed to him. Like he spends a lot of time creating everything on sound stages with like massive backgrounds and mass, like very specific color themes and like hundreds of extras sometimes. And, you know, so we're not necessarily reflecting that or, or inspired by that, but more so the framing of how he like each frame of his film looks like a painting. And also on top of that,

things are just playing out in these wide shots. And so one of our rules for serious people is every scene has two shots. Generally speaking, that was the approach we came in. There's a wide shot, like a super wide, and then a super close up. And that's our coverage for the scene. We're not shooting shots of hands or. Yeah, which was noticeable. Yeah, and when I say totally, I haven't seen his films, but it reminded me of your films. And yeah, you have a lot of painting-esque, like lot of wide shots that are pretty hypnotic.

A lot in the house and the office you went back to it, it became a motif in a way, which is nice. just ties it. That's how you make a film feel kind of tied together when you keep reapplying. And it felt appropriate. I wasn't sure what you were going for, but it made you feel a specific way, which is always great as opposed to like, we're going to do some coverage. Here's a close up. Just because we're supposed to.

Because we're trying to make it, because the film is a comedy, because it's comedic, because it's hilarious, because there's lots of jokes in it, right? We really wanted to subvert that genre. And I think this is our attempt at doing that. You know, when you think about comedic films on their face, that's where the comedy is. The comedies in the close up, the comedies in the coverage, the comedies in the blocking. But what if, what happens when you strip all of that away?

and comedy comes from the amount of negative space that the characters are having these conversations in. And that was something that like really excited Ben and me and we just committed to that. Just going in the opposite direction, seeing what happens. Yeah. Yeah. The unexpected. Nice. As far as those long takes and like the appreciation for the longer takes where nothing maybe happens or it's just this observational kind of vibe.

There was this film that I interviewed the filmmaker for New York Film Festival called Direct Action. Have you heard of this documentary? It came out, well, it's kind of just coming out. This film has like 15, 20 minute shots, one, like just takes where like there's, you know, this 15 minute scene slash shot, which is just a closeup of two men playing chess in the French countryside. And so hypnotic and it's like, I don't.

I remember watching it, like, don't know about this, can I get through this? That movie made me fall in love with the observational style. I wasn't even really learned on that as much as I wish I was before. anyway, something about just the hypnotic nature of just sitting and watching and just like, I don't need to be spoon-fed some sort of plot or some easy thing. It's really a lovely film. And then also it's like, fuck a runtime, fuck the.

I'm going to say fuck the audience, you know, it's like, where is that line between, you know, trying to serve or trying to appease or indulge an audience and like know how to kind of move it along, but also try to do something different and do something that's exciting and fresh and like challenging the audience's expectations. You know, I thought European filmmakers are really good at that. know, so yeah, I mean, talk about that, I guess. mean,

our rest in peace to David Lynch, man, for real, like fucking heartbreaking, man. But he's like my favorite director. he says something great about this, which is, you know, like, why is everybody trying to make me cut? There's like some video on YouTube. He's like freaking out. He's shooting. Yeah, yeah, probably. It's like they're trying to the producers are trying to make him like move along and they're trying to make him.

break the scene up and he's like, that scene is the fucking scene. And it's so true, dude, you know? I think, I don't know, Ben, all that you talked to is I think we had just like a lot of great elements working for us that allowed us to live in these takes for such a long time. Again, I think the chemistry that each character had with one another, I think the awareness of the filmmaking process, like I said,

You know, me being a director, Christine being a director, Raul being a director, my friend Spencer, is another kind of tertiary character, being a director. Everyone's kind of a filmmaker, film adjacent in the film. And so when you're doing this style, they're almost kind of like subconsciously putting a ribbon on the scene and making it work. I actually didn't hear about David Lynch until just now. RIP. I just like looked it up. that's all I didn't know. I saw it right before we went on. Damn.

Yeah, it's like David Lynch. There's even a like a David Lynch poster in the Squaw's living room. Yeah. I guess, you know, Blue Velvet, course, that building that Isabella Rossellini lived in, know, where Dennis Harper with the mask. So I lived in the building beside that in Wilmington, North Carolina. So I always woke up and did that and would always see. Just think about that movie. And I think that's my favorite David Lynch movie, Blue Velvet. mine. I think it's my favorite. It's one of the one of the best. Top five.

It's just fucking, it's just like a, talk about subverting genres and doing whatever the hell he wants, but also just keeping you hypnotized. Man, yeah, RIP. Probably, I don't want to rank anybody, but I'll put him in my top five American filmmakers of all time. I'll do that, yeah. Yeah, I think, mean, I don't know. I definitely think the same way about David Lynch. Like his films are all so strange and unique and they always generate such a reaction.

You know, like I think the first time I came across his movies, I was like, I hate this guy. You know? And then the more I watched, the more I liked. And I really do think there's a value to in each film trying to push the genre or push filmmaking in some way or another. And you know, obviously Pasquale and I are coming at this in a very small way. But I think even, you know, back when we were living at Stax in

2013, we were always talking like, how do we change the game? How do we make something that's a little bit different? you know, I think serious people is still 100 % rooted in narrative structure. know, like we're still, this still is a film with three act structure. There's still conflict tension is still raising, but there's little things that we played with, like what is documentary? What is fiction? And, you know, like,

What is this like take on comedy? And so I don't know. I think we're trying to push ourselves in this film a little bit and we'll see if we can apply this to our next films going forward too. Yeah, you pushed it. It's got a freshness to it. And like, auto fiction, let's talk one more little teeny bit about that. Yeah. I don't think I read the definition here.

Auto-fiction blends fictional elements with details from the author's life. The result is a work that often reads like a first-person account of the author's life, but with blurred lines between fact and fiction. How new is this for film? Or is it new for film? I do you see it a lot? I feel like auto-fiction is definitely more in the literary space personally than it is in the cinematic space. And it has been around, but at least in my perspective, it's always a little bit more on the fringes.

It's more in the art house. It's a bit more obscure. There is a film that Ben referenced to me I hadn't seen called Our Time that I had not seen before. And it is starring a director who's living on a farm. It's a Mexican film and he is the protagonist and his wife is also in the film and he has some of his real family members in the film. But it's obviously takes a much more like

delves further into surrealism and things like that. that was something that we had all spoke, Ben was really talking a lot about that early on. Yeah, Carlos Regados, I really look up to that filmmaker. I think he does some of that too, of pushing the genre like David Lynch, but this film is done in an auto-fiction kind of way. I think it's interesting because some people are gonna watch this and they're gonna...

Cause we're also submitting this to documentary film festivals. We're kind of like submitting that when we submit to Sundance, we submit to the documentary category and the fiction category. Because there was so much backlash of like, how do we place this film? And we're like, well, we don't know. Like you decide, you know? Yeah. Interesting. I think that, you know, this year is going to be interesting for Pasquale and I if once we start attending documentary film festivals and people are like,

standing up and saying, this isn't a documentary. And I think we can have conversations about the genre and how important it is to think that there isn't just one type of film. There isn't one type of documentary. It's like, you know what? There's manipulation required. There's storytelling. There's writing involved with each form. I it's just what it is, right? Absolutely. It's like I reached out to my documentary named Clay Twill. He did Gleason and some other stuff. yeah, I know Clay. You know Clay? Yeah.

And when I first did my first short doc about my hometown, he was helping me out. And my first question to him was, so how much manipulation is there in documentary? You know, it just made sense to ask. what is, you know, cause I was so unfamiliar. He was like, that's a, that's, that's the question, isn't it? You know? And it's like, and everything kind of stems from that. It's like, okay, cool. Well, then what's, even if your film here, Serious People is 50 % nonfiction. It's still fucking nonfiction, isn't it?

I don't know. What do you say? Yeah, man. I mean, to go off of that, right? Like, because talking about documentary as a form, you know, many times when you're making documentary films, specifically, you know, character driven pieces, the characters, which we would describe as subjects in documentary, right, they are being manipulated. They are manipulating themselves because there is an element of

awareness to the camera. And we're constantly seeking for what's the truth, right? I feel like that's cinema verite, right? Like, is there ever a true cinema verite? And I think what's interesting about serious people is we took the ideas of that, and we applied them to myself and to my friend groups, right, my close knit people, and Ben's as well. But the difference was a lot of times in

a lot of observational docs, the subjects, are not super aware of the filmmaking process. They're not truly aware of like the editing process down the line, the coloring process, the finishing, how their image is going to be assembled, et cetera, and so forth and so forth. But for us in our little world, everybody was pretty fucking aware. And I think what's interesting about that is we found new truths that way because

In some ways, would say, we would say it's actually the most ethical form of filmmaking because everybody was in on it. Everybody knew what it was. And the versions of themselves that they're expressing, there's so much emotional truth there. Even if like the subject matter of the conversation is not exactly A to B what's happening outside. It's emotionally that. Right. Wow. Emotional truth, I guess you're saying. Yeah. So the truth of it all, it's like, what is fucking truth? You know what I mean?

Yeah, 100 % because even in some of the last films that I've worked on, like last year of darkness and don't be a dick about it, there's a lot of moments that we captured on camera that I really liked, but we couldn't use it because the protagonist felt that it was something that was not something that they were uncomfortable having in the film. And I, as a director, you always want to respect your protagonists in documentary and fiction. so by collaborating,

You can kind of work out something where everyone feels that their scenes are motivated and important. And so by scripting these scenes where Pasquale and Raoul can argue or Pasquale can hang out with Spencer or any of the scenes, it's giving Raoul and Spencer and Christine a voice in the film to express themselves. And to me, that's a more ethical collaboration, even if it's more

on the fiction end and say if we're standing really far away spying on someone arguing, know, like maybe that's actually happening. But if you put that in a film, it's kind of insulting to those who are on camera. So I feel like this collaboration is maybe a more moral form of documentary storytelling. That's interesting. Very interesting. Real quick, what are your thoughts on like when you do make a documentary and there's a moment or a scene or whatever where you feel like you so need it, but your protagonist either doesn't want you to, your subject doesn't want you to use it.

Or you feel like they're not gonna appreciate it if you use it and don't tell them where you, where do you stand there? But it drives the story in your mind, you know, my God, this will be need. So you say to yourself, I mean, I think that's for me, I've, I've encountered that a lot and I, and I've come to feel like that's a problem in documentary filmmaking, because if, if they don't, if a protagonist doesn't want it in the film, you can't put it in the film in my hands down, you know, it's, it's ultimately the people who are on camera.

are the real heroes of the film because they're being vulnerable with their lives. So if you disrespect them and include something that they don't like, they have no reason to trust you and you shouldn't be making this film in the first place. like, I mean, that's my hot take on it. I think the documentary community is aligned with that, like, I think you have to take it out. And so you have to be telling a story that documentary protagonists are aligned with. Otherwise it's like,

You don't want to be that person either, where you see it when you watch a film where it's like, this subject got fucked here. You can tell. 100%. And then on the flip side, it's unfortunate for you as a director. If a narrative thread that you're trying to tell is not comfortable by the protagonist, then yeah, you have to realign what you're doing. so I feel like what's cool about this with Serious People is we had the opportunity to really

Collaborate like pasquale is the pasquale is right pasquale came up with the concept and he's the star of the movie so like you know This is this is pasquale's like yeah You asked for it What What's your favorite moment of? Making this movie like what's what's like the highlight as far as you know whether it be production or just any for any part of the phase like what's like the So far because you got Sundance coming up I'm sure that's gonna be hard to beat but as far as showing it with the world and having that Sundance experience

Besides that, what do you think your favorite moment was? You go first, I think favorite scene in the movie, or you mean like a part of this whole process? guess I meant more so like when you were making it, while making it or creating it, what's a really nice moment that you remember? Where you were just, I don't know, that you felt good. You felt like, yes. I I remember when we wrapped, we all went out to a Chinese food restaurant.

that was like, and we had kind of like a goodbye dinner. It was kind of emotional. was pretty cool because Christine, I don't know if you remember in the film, but Christine says like, like I got this commercial. She's on a phone in the car and she gets an offer for a commercial. Yeah, yeah. So Christine actually did get a commercial and she actually directed the commercial. And she's like, I think like seven or eight months pregnant at the time.

And so Christine had just wrapped a commercial and then she came out to dinner and then we had just finished the movie and we had Teddy was there who was just like making the movie happen from day one, like doing all the things that like all the producing, just coordinating everything. And Waju, the sound man was there. And I think this was Waju's one of his first movies that he worked as a sound man. And we're all just sitting there like, damn, this might be the last time that we all.

hang out before Pasquale disappears in the fatherhood and we can, you know, like enjoy this moment and celebrate that we've made something together. I think Pasquale even like cried at that dinner. Yeah, I cried. I did cry. Yeah, I mean, it was emotional, man. It's awesome. What was it for you? the accomplishment sense of accomplishment? It was, it was, it was all of it. You know, it was all of it. I think it was my first feature, you know, like

It was something that I had told Ben when I got the news that like I'm going to become a father. And I was like, if we don't make this film, I'm never going to make a feature. And I was like, I have to make this movie. I have to make it. And I have so driven by it and the collaboration around the film.

with obviously Ben, like we're roommates, were roommates. Teddy and I, we used to live with Teddy. Wadji was my childhood best friend. The people that came around this and came together to make this film, they're like my best friends, you know? And I knew that this was gonna be it. And what an amazing send off into the next chapter of life. my gosh, it'll motivate you having a child.

I have a friend, filmmaker friend, Gil. You know Gil Clubin? He's a silver-light guy. Louis Felix. Oh yeah. You know Gil? I don't know Gil. I would like to know Gil. You should know him. He's about to be called The Wave with Justin Long. Oh Anyway, he's a great filmmaker, but he was struggling to get his second film made. And right when he found out his wife was pregnant,

He got, it's just like out of nowhere. It's like, boom, like I'm already in pre-production for the next film. Like it just motivated him in a way where it's like, and now it's done, it's in post, it's already, you know, but it's like, yeah. And same for me as far as when I knew the kid was coming, it would just, it does something to you. It's like this like motivator, it's a motivator. Sundance, you guys getting that acceptance to Sundance. What was that like? Were you guys pretty happy about that? What that I also cried at that. Yeah. Oh yeah, dude.

That was a good one. Yeah, Ben was in China and I was doing a commercial and I had gotten phone calls from Sundance and from the programmers they had questions about our submission and I was super paranoid. I was halfway through the day. We were on lunch and I missed the call and I'm like, my god, we blew it because we submitted as a doc and as fiction and maybe they, you know, all in my mind is racing.

we rap and they give us the call and it just, I mean, dude, I don't know. I feel like this film of all films too, you know, just in the way that it was done and how deeply personal it was as funny as it is, as much as it is kind of like an experimentation and it is an art project. Like I'm all up in that shit, you know? And there's a lot of truth in there. And so to see that be the one that hit, you know, cause it's both of our first Sundance. It's like,

just beyond really. That personal stuff, when you really pull out, it just seems to be that that's the key ingredient that I feel like that gets you over the hump. I I was a mess. I was trying to, you know, pay homage too much to past movies that I love. And then I realized like, ain't working. What am I doing? What am I saying? What do I need to say? Nobody needs to hear this. Then I went back home and made a documentary and everything fell into place. You know what I mean? That's true. The personal kind of thing that I needed to do. So it's beautiful. Congrats on the Sundance.

Last question, and I always go back to this, just the question I always ask at the end. What would you maybe, tell your past filmmaker self with what you've learned? The thing I would tell myself is to like, chill the fuck out a little bit. Because I think in the early days of making films, I was like so passionate and I would get upset at people who I didn't need to get upset and it probably, you know, like,

created hostility in some relationships that like wasn't necessary just because I was kind of like hot-headed about certain things. And then I look back and I'm like, why did I care so much about that? I'm guilty of that too, yeah. I think what I would say is if you're scared to do it, do it. Definitely.