E40 • Dreaming Your Sub-Concious Film Into Reality • GALA DEL SOL, dir. of ‘Rains Over Babel’ at Sundance + Rotterdam Film Festival

Colombian filmmaker Gala Del Sol discusses her debut feature film, “Rains Over Babel”, which just screened at this years Sundance and Rotterdam Film Festivals. Careful not to borrow too heavily, her cinema influences include Serbian filmmaker Emir Kusturica, who directed “Black Cat, White Cat”, and her favorite film of all time - “Children of Paradise”, from French director Marcel Carné.

Exploring a unique blend of magical realism, punk aesthetics, eclectic score and vibrant sound design, Gala shares her film's themes of loss, identity, and redemption, shaped by the challenges of creating art during the pandemic. She praises the support of her family during production, the role of dreams in creativity, and the collaborative nature of storytelling. 

Gala speaks on the importance of trusting the creative process, the impact of expectations on artistic expression, and how your film is ultimately a sub-concious reflection of who you were at the moment. Further explored is the concept that dreams, as a form of unconscious expression, can influence our waking lives and potentially manifest into real-world experiences.

Like, subscribe and follow us on our socials @pastpresentfeature

Chapters

• 0:01 Past Present Feature, Hosted by Marcus Mizelle
• 0:23 Introducing Gala Del Sol, dir. of "Rains Over Babel" at Sundance
• 2:48 The Unique Style of Gala Del Sol
• 4:40 Sound Design + Music as a Character
• 7:42 Finding Your Own Style + Paying Homage
• 11:00 "Rains Over Babel" Origin: The Birth of a Film During Crisis + Guilt as a Central Theme
• 16:45 Development & Pre-Production
• 22:02 Production Highlights & Challenges: Family Support + Visual Aesthetics
• 26:48 Influences and Inspirations: Emir Kusturica, dir. of "Black Cat, White Cat" + "Children in Paradise", dir. by Marcel Carné
• 30:45 Exploring Magical Realism + Dreams as a Source of Creativity
• 33:40 Collaborative Storytelling and Character Development
• 37:13 The Role of Expectations in Art + Finding Closure in the Editing Process
• 40:50 The Film is a Reflection of Who You Were at the Moment + Mixing at Sony Pictures Studios
• 41:35 Mixing & Working at Sony Pictures Studios
• 44:37 The Dream of Sundance and Future Aspirations

Transcript

Marcus Mizelle (00:24)
Colombian filmmaker Gala del Sol discusses her debut feature film, Reigns Over Babel, which just debuted at this year's Sundance Film Festival. not to borrow too her cinema influences include Serbian filmmaker Amir Costa Rica, who directed Black Cat, White Cat, and her favorite film of all time, Children of Paradise, from French director Marcel Carnet. Exploring a unique blend of magical realism, punk aesthetics, eclectic score,

In vibrant sound design, Ghala shares her film's themes of loss, identity, and redemption, shaped by the challenges of creating art during the pandemic. She praises the support of her family during production, the role of dreams and creativity, and the collaborative nature of storytelling. Ghala speaks on the importance of trusting the creative process, the impact of expectations on artistic and how your film is ultimately a subconscious reflection of who you are at the moment.

Further explored is the concept that dreams as a form of unconscious expression can influence our waking lives and potentially manifest into real-world experiences.

Speaker 1 (01:24)
I watched your movie. It's crazy, wild. It's a wild ride. I didn't expect it to be as stylistic as it was. It reminded me of, and I don't know how this is gonna make you feel, but it reminded me of Terry Gilliam's early stuff. Brazil. Yeah, Brazil.

Speaker 2 (01:39)
Got in there a lot lately.

Speaker 1 (01:41)
You didn't, you heard that.

Speaker 2 (01:43)
I've heard that before, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:45)
Okay, maybe it's like the lens choices and like the surrealism and the magical realism, I guess, really.

Speaker 2 (01:52)
But that's great. I do love Terry Gilliam. I love him. And then I love Brazil.

Speaker 1 (01:58)
Yeah, he's good. What's the last thing he made? I feel like it's been a minute.

Speaker 2 (02:01)
Um, the man who killed Don Quixote. I didn't watch that one.

Speaker 1 (02:05)
Really?

2018? Oh yeah, that's woman with the Adam Driver.

Speaker 2 (02:11)
I think the last one I watched of him was the Imaginarium of Dr. Parnassus.

Speaker 1 (02:15)
yeah, Heath Ledger. Did you ever see Lost in La Mancha? Like when he tried, the documentary about when he tried to make The Man Who Killed Donkey the first time with Johnny Depp? this is like top three documentaries about making a movie.

Speaker 2 (02:32)
What's it again?

Speaker 1 (02:34)
called Lost in La Mancha.

Speaker 2 (02:36)
I'm going to check it out.

Speaker 1 (02:37)
Yeah, yeah, so good. Okay, so your movie is, first of all, your name is Gala Del Sol?

Speaker 2 (02:44)
Gala del Solia

Speaker 1 (02:46)
You say it better. You are a Colombian film director, screenwriter, and creative consultant for narrative projects whose stories revolve around fantastic realism and have a punk aesthetic with a tropical twist. That is specific. That's a pretty good combo. Can you tell me why this combo? Where does this combo come from?

Speaker 2 (03:07)
You know, it's not, it's just who I am, I guess. know, like when I was in college, everyone, like all the directors were like, I need to find my style, my signature and so on. I'm like, it's just who you are. You know, like what kind of movies do you like? What kind of books do you like to read? And so like that, you know, I grew up in Columbia surrounded by stories filled with magical realism just in daily life.

and I've just always loved fantasy as well. So, I guess that's just, who I am. And I used to be like a little punk in college and, high school. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. So it's, it's just a combination of, what I enjoy.

Speaker 1 (03:54)
And the tropical twist element is just the Colombian little spice on top. I mean, it's a cool, you gotta come with something fresh. I mean, as far as anything in this world, especially as a filmmaker, if you're doing something that somebody has already done or is doing, that's a dangerous thing that nobody really wants to see. Like it's nice to have a uniqueness and you, yeah, your bio is like super unique. What you're about is very unique. And in your film, it totally,

Speaker 2 (03:57)
That's just the Colombian in me.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:24)
Right when the movie starts, does have such a, like, its own aura about it for real. Like, and it was a combination of like, well, the first thing that popped in my head was a combination of kind of a fisheye or a super wide lens or something going on there, but it was also the sound design was wild. Like the mixing is really good in this movie.

Speaker 2 (04:45)
Thank you so much. I'm so happy to hear that.

Speaker 1 (04:48)
I I noticed it right off the bat. It's like, boom, this is like the next level. Where did, like, this is a random thing that I love to start with, because I've never done it before. Let's talk about the sound mix right off the bat. Who mixed it? Like, what was your kind of approach to it? And I guess, where did you mix it?

Speaker 2 (05:04)
Jerry Vasquez and James Parnell mixed it at Sony Pictures Studios in Los Angeles.

Speaker 1 (05:14)
You know, I used to have an office right across the main walkway from that mixing stage. Well, I'm guessing it's the same mixing stage.

Speaker 2 (05:20)
I

loved it. think that's where they mix Spider-Bears and the Passion of Christ as well.

Speaker 1 (05:28)
Was it the one with the giant screen? Did you do it in there? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man.

Speaker 2 (05:31)
It was, yeah.

Yeah, it was so fun. It was so, fun.

Speaker 1 (05:37)
So many people have gone through there. I feel like so many quality filmmakers have mixed their movies right there with yours.

Speaker 2 (05:43)
I was honored to be there, you know? I couldn't believe myself. And then in regards to the sound design, to me it's so important because I almost treated like a character in itself and I wanted to be that, you know? To me, sound doesn't and shouldn't match reality, but it should create its own reality. And that's kind of like what we went for. The movie itself, it said in...

a Columbia of another dimension. So we ask ourselves, like, what does it sound like? You know, like, how do the birds sound there? And I just love in general to kind of like detail movements with sound, you know, or like the way that characters look at something and then that sounds as well. So again, you know, just like a sound design that will create its own reality.

Speaker 1 (06:37)
Damn, that's pretty good. Pretty good breakdown right there.

Speaker 2 (06:40)
Music,

you know, with Amiya, I asked my composer to create a genre. And I told him that I wanted a mix of salsa, because salsa is huge in my city, flamenco, Balkan music, and trap.

Speaker 1 (06:57)
Damn, you love combos. That's nice. And it created this like unique thing, like you can't put your finger on it. And I don't know much about any of those. But yeah, no, this movie has its own vibe going. Do you ever worry about combining too many elements or do you not worry?

Speaker 2 (07:15)
Never, never. I just try to make something that I will want to watch. And I think that's the key.

Speaker 1 (07:21)
Totally, and right here, it's natural audience. It's natural audience includes those who love world building, fantasy, magical realism, and camp. Created by a passionate team of 20 to 28 year olds, we asked ourselves one simple question. What's the kind of movie we'd love to watch? That's you that said that. Yeah, no, mean, but it's also like, you know, when I was asking you kind of like where your style comes from and you brought up other kids in film school or whatever, and it reminded me of searching for your style.

reminded me of my own kind of like searching for my own style back in the day. And did you ever find yourself or others kind of gravitating at first towards more of like trying to pay homage too much to other filmmakers you liked and other movies or because I only ask you that because I did. I was guilty of that until I think we all have like a different speeds as far as like our path, our journey learning process or whatever. But as far as like, you know, when I felt my style, my comfortability, like what I need to do as a filmmaker.

It was after I paid a little too much homage and made a few films that were trying, kind of subconsciously trying to be like other films that I loved. anyways, yeah, mean, you experienced that?

Speaker 2 (08:29)
That you.

I guess in my case, I started off doing very experimental stuff. and I kind of like just always like to, you know, like do the opposite of what I'm told I should do. So I guess when I started, I was just trying to do the weirdest things possible to be 100 % honest. And then I started learning about, you know, like narrative structure, how to properly, you know, like develop characters, character arcs and so on.

I made sure to learn all the rules and then started to break them. That's I guess why the film is what it is. And then in terms of like paying a mash, yeah, but then I just steal stuff that I like, you know? And I'm not ready to use it in a way. And I guess that the error is trying to do something like someone else instead of just like,

making it your own.

Speaker 1 (09:34)
Sure. What did you steal that you put into this film?

Speaker 2 (09:37)
I stole, like for example, the first shot of the movie is literally a painting by Remedios Baro, the surrealist painter that's called Harmonia. And I love that painting. So I just took it and made it my own and like inserted the painting into the world. But if you look it up, it's, you know, like a direct inspiration.

Speaker 1 (09:59)
You know, I saw something else that that I totally immediately reminded me of Wong Kar Wai film. The shot in the motorcycle in the tunnel, which is beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's great. And it's not necessarily the same shot, but it's just, you know, like, Hmm. That's a beautiful image. And like, why not do that? Because these, these things are going to get lost in the sauce anyways. You know what I mean? Like who's going to, I don't know what kids going to like, likely how many kids are likely going to rewatch like, you know, a Scorsese film 60 years from now, you know, maybe.

Speaker 2 (10:04)
yes!

This is the secret, yeah that's awesome.

Speaker 1 (10:29)
But who knows? Let's just, I'm just saying, think about it. It's fucking crazy.

Speaker 2 (10:33)
I just feel that it's important for us to pay homage to people who have inspired us somehow. then again, to me the important thing is just make it your own. Don't try to copy someone else because someone else is already that person. So don't try to be like them. Just grab whatever you like from them and make it your own. I think that's the key.

Speaker 1 (10:53)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just be inspired, but also like do your own thing. Nice. I'm gonna read the synopsis for your film. Rains Over Babel is a bold and visually arresting debut feature from Spanish Colombian filmmaker Galán Decibel, a rising voice in magical realism. The film is a vibrant representation of Colombia's youth combining magical realism with gritty modernity. It showcases visually striking sets and ensemble narrative, bold costuming and a genre-defying soundtrack that combines salsa, trap, Balkan music and flamenco.

The story resonates with universal themes of loss, identity, and redemption while celebrating Latin American mythos. Sound design for Reigns Over Babel was done at the iconic Chemnovac Theater at Sony Pictures Studios. So talk about the universal themes of this film, loss, identity, and redemption. Two questions actually, like why those themes for you? How are they incorporated in your film?

Speaker 2 (11:43)
It has to do with the way that the film was born and it was during the pandemic. So I lived in Los Angeles for six years and then in 2020 I returned to Colombia in the last plane that arrived before it closed. So I almost got left out.

Speaker 1 (12:03)
Was it late February? Or no, March maybe? Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right, you're right, right. I was on the first one coming back from Berlin, like February 26th or something.

Speaker 2 (12:05)
I was like April. It was the last, last one.

It was a crazy time. My parents thought that the apocalypse was coming and like, yeah, it was crazy. So I came back after six years in LA and I was actually going to shoot another film that was supposed to be my first film that year. And obviously everything got canceled. I was locked in my room for 20 days because we didn't know whether I had COVID or not. And so in the midst of that chaos, I was like, okay, what am I going to do with my life? I was in the midst of an existential crisis, you know, like

Speaker 1 (12:19)
Everything

Speaker 2 (12:44)
My film had gotten canceled. So I did theater since I was four years old. And I, you know, like I still love theater and theater actors. And what I love the most is to work with actors. So I called a friend who still moves in the theater circles of the city. And he got me a group of theater actors that were interested in starting to learn how to act for film. And so that's how everything started. Like, and without thinking that this was going to become a feature or anything.

but we just started video calling every week and talking about the differences of acting for theater and film and so on. And I did a series of workshops for them. And then one of the activities was to create a character. And so I gave them two prompts to create a character that they always wanted to play and to create a character that helped heal something within them.

Speaker 1 (13:35)
Love that. I've never heard that approach before.

Speaker 2 (13:37)
All

the characters began to get created. And so what I did is I just like met with them and started working, you know, like on the character arcs and so on. And still we didn't know that this was going to become a film. We were just, you know, like trying to cope with the existential crisis of the pandemic. And all of us at the time were between 20 and 25. I was 23. I think I had just turned 24. And so we were for the first time for most of us, at least like

grappling the idea of death, know, and illness of her loved ones, maybe of herself. And that's why the main character, La Flaca, like that's death personified, of course, she's the one that crosses them all naturally. So I think the film turned out to be a reflection of what we were living and what was naturally in our minds, you know, like us again, you know, like 20 year olds living the pandemic.

And again, you know, it's a natural reflection of that. obviously death is a central theme, also, you know, at the time I met an exorcist priest and he told me something very interesting that subconsciously, because I just realized this a few weeks ago when I was talking about it, but subconsciously I put it into the film. And it is the fact that he said guilt.

Guilt is what's keeping people in the material world. Thinking that we don't deserve to be forgiven or thinking that God should forgive our sins, you know, like for us to be worthy of salvation. And that really struck with me and naturally I inserted that into the film. And so, you know, like without me knowing that it was gonna turn out that way, the world of Babel, you know, like was hell.

and Babel itself was the purgatory and all the characters start realizing that they're in hell, you know? And then the threat, if you see closely, the threat, even though they're very different characters, the threat that joins all of them is that they are all feeling guilt off of something. And I just realized this, you know, like a few weeks ago, the film, like, okay.

Speaker 1 (15:57)
yeah, yeah,

Speaker 2 (16:01)
And it's totally that way, you know, that conversation with that exorcist priest seeped into my work, because that's just what was in my subconscious mind at the moment.

Speaker 1 (16:11)
love too how a lot of good characters in good films have these, call it many things, like a ghost that's following them around from a past event that happened before the film started, And usually it's a guilt-ridden thing. It's like a regret or a guilt or something that's bothering them they can't resolve, they can't figure out. And usually, just like in real life, once you start figuring out a way to not blame yourself or whatever the case may be.

you start kind of moving on and feeling much better, right? So that guilt thing does make sense. That's like a very like common denominator. And then as far as I loved how you made your, the bar purgatory.

Speaker 2 (16:50)
the bartender is the devil.

Speaker 1 (16:52)
The bartender is the devil. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Didn't catch that actually. Yeah. But I mean, that's, it's, you know, beyond just like, just that kind of like, it just really puts you right up in, in, in some fantastical, in a fantastical space, which, you know, along with the way it's shot and stylized, you know, it does, it totally works. But also logistically, I can't help myself, you know, producer cap on like, it must've been nice be kind of contained in a way, right. In one central location. I mean,

Speaker 2 (16:56)
El Boticario.

Speaker 1 (17:20)
I guess we're moving into production now talking about production. Like what did that look like for you? Did you guys shoot for a while or did you shoot quickly or how did that look for you? And then also was the bar and all the rooms inside of it, was that kind of in one area or was it around town?

Speaker 2 (17:33)
We had a total of 22 locations. We had 22 locations. The bar, Babel, was actually shot in two different locations, two different bars that are iconic from my city. They're called La Topa Tolondra and Espacio 1060. And so we had two places in Babel as well. The first place, which is the nuclear aquarium that was shot at Space 1060. And then the other place, which is kind of like the cabaret.

where we have like the drag queen dance and then the concert. Yeah. So, and then my little pony, they kind of like the motel that also like has the circles of hell, you know, where the little people are. The motel was actually shot at a real motel that it's like thematic and people can go there in real life and spend a sexy night.

with their partners there. Okay. It's just crazy. Like there's an Egyptian room, there's a polar room, the giant Venus tattoo is there as well.

Speaker 1 (18:39)
So each room has a different kind of So it's like the Madonna Inn. You heard of the Madonna Inn over here? Yeah. Yeah. San Luis Obispo.

Speaker 2 (18:47)
It's also like an iconic location of my city. And I think it gives so much production value to the film because everyone thinks that we built all of that.

Speaker 1 (18:57)
That staircase that like where the little guy comes down with it. I love the, what's the character's name? What's his name? Delphos. That was some Terry Gilliam shit too for me. It was so fun and unexpected. was like, what was happening now? But that combined with that location and the staircase and that little statue was just weird. You could tell, I would have been shocked if you built that because damn, then it's like, let me interview your production designer real quick, right? But it was beautiful. Okay.

Speaker 2 (19:03)
Delphos, Delphos. Yeah.

Anyways, Jaime Luna.

All the apartments were built. Manet's house is actually an office building. We also rented an apartment building from the 1920s that was abandoned. We built a bunch of the sets there, the pink set of Dona Elba. The reference was Dolores Umbridge's office from Harry Potter.

Speaker 1 (19:48)
yeah, yeah. I'm a Harry Potter guy. I'm not embarrassed.

Speaker 2 (19:52)
Me too, like I'm a Potterhead for sure. I love it. I'm afraid to say it. I love fantasy. It's so good.

Speaker 1 (19:56)
I'm the first book to my kid.

I don't ever think about making it myself, it's so fantastic. mean, talk about escapism, just fantasy. it's,

Speaker 2 (20:11)
But you know, like the thing about, for example, Reigns Over Babel is that I think it's right at the intersection between reality and fantasy. Which again, you know, like the characters themselves are based, a lot of them on the actresses life stories and what they wanted to heal. So I think that also like gives the film like a raw energy that helps drive the narrative forward. What I did was kind of like mix that with this imaginary world that's retro futuristic tropical punk, you know?

And I had to, you know, like have mythical characters there. So you get La Flaca, the personified, then El Boticario, who's the devil. And then you get El Boticario's wife, Erato, who is a guardian angel for some of the characters, no?

Speaker 1 (20:54)
And also just having purgatory be that middle ground as far as the story world. You have this built-in juxtaposition. You have that when you're talking about it was, you know, magical between realism and fantasy. It makes sense because you're in purgatory, right? That's your setting. I would think a lot of that juxtaposition and contrast and all that really do move a story forward. And I feel like you'd probably naturally just notice those things, potential juxtapositions more and more with that even space, that story space.

I would think, you know, like you're in the middle, like tug of war kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (21:28)
It's

fun, so it's not like a dreadful purgatory, you know, like it's literally a nightclub where people can dance and party. So it's again, you know, like why, why can I, I guess the question for that was like, why do we have to like think of the afterlife as like some dark place, you know, like that's not fun and boring. Why can't there be humor there as well? Heartache, you know, love as well.

So it's not like our world, but with mythical characters.

Speaker 1 (22:02)
What was like a highlight? What was like a highlight for production where you're like so ecstatic and feeling so good about this movie? And then also conversely, what was something where you're like, uh-oh, where you felt kind of nervous and concerned about it going okay?

Speaker 2 (22:15)
They're related. So three days before the production started, we got an email from one of our co-producers who was supposed to put like 150k, just by email telling us that they were out days before we started production. So obviously, you know, like that was a big hit. And then it was pretty chaotic, you know, like trying to get the money while we were shooting.

Speaker 1 (22:29)
come on.

Ugh.

Speaker 2 (22:43)
And I ended up working with my siblings and my parents and my A.D.s to get that produced, you know, and to get the money as we were shooting. We shot for six weeks. then, you know, like having the opportunity to work alongside my family in production, you know. Both my siblings do film, but then my parents, you know, like my daughter architect, my mom's a lawyer. It's nothing to do with that.

But just, know, like feeling their support and then just having them go to, you know, like extreme lengths to help us get it done was very heartwarming, you know, because it was not just making a film, but it ended up turning, you know, like, like as a family, we want to make something meaning, meaning.

Speaker 1 (23:21)
So cool.

Sure, I love that. And you went Sundance now too, ha ha. I mean, that's nice. Silly investor that dropped out, whoever you are. I'm just kidding. You shouldn't do it because you might get into Sundance, but still, that's a funny story. And good for your parents and your family for coming through and getting rewarded too like that. Your cinematographer, the movie's beautiful. The richness of like even like the opening scene, that apartment, the opening and closing scenes there and then.

Speaker 2 (23:45)
That's a funny

Speaker 1 (23:59)
I don't know, like just talk about your cinematography approach.

Speaker 2 (24:01)
name is Stenta Dashi Olson and he actually he was a senior when I was a freshman in college.

Speaker 1 (24:04)
Okay.

he's from Seattle, Washington, okay.

Speaker 2 (24:11)
And his senior thesis was my first set.

Speaker 1 (24:16)
Got you. Got you.

Speaker 2 (24:18)
And I always wanted to work with him. I think he's so talented. He got an ASC Heritage Award when he was in college as well. And he was the only crazy person that I met at college that was willing to come to Columbia for nine weeks to shoot it.

Speaker 1 (24:26)
Okay.

I mean, that sounds like a hell of an adventure.

Speaker 2 (24:37)
Amazing. He's amazing. You know, like he came for two months. Like he accepted a pay rate that was like way lower than he's used to. He put his camera, his lenses on. We shot with an Alexa Mini and like size vintage lenses. The way he interprets light, like the first thing that he said when he got here, he's like, my gosh, I've never, I've never been in a city that has worse

Natural lighting.

Speaker 1 (25:08)
wow. Why is that? Because it's like too bright, too much. Yeah. OK. This look, this and very briefly. Well, he's from Seattle, too, which is interesting because it would remind me that lighting up there would remind me of like the European Scandinavian or like, you know, northern European cinematographers who who come off as the best, in my opinion, when it comes to their imagery, but best being a super, you know, just my opinion.

Speaker 2 (25:10)
Yeah.

It's way too bright,

Speaker 1 (25:37)
But then you think, well, damn, the lighting is so fucking good too, and are naturally diffused in these areas.

Speaker 2 (25:43)
had

to do with what we had, you know, used a bunch of neon tubes, a lot of them got damaged, we're trying to replace them as we shot. So it was definitely an adventure. Also, you know, like his whole crew spoke Spanish and he only speaks English. After two months, he was already giving direction in Spanish, which was really, really funny. But yeah, in regards to cinematography, definitely one of the big influences was Wonkar White, of course.

And again, we were just trying to make our own thing where, you know, like he grabbed some of his influences and, you know, like inserted that into the Colombian landscape somehow with the elements that we got.

Speaker 1 (26:26)
for you as a filmmaker, what's like a big influence like film wise? And then also, is there any direct influences for this movie that you might've of looked at and like got hyped up from?

Speaker 2 (26:38)
Definitely my work is a mix of everything that I love. So one of my favorite filmmakers is Emir Kusturica. know, like underground black cat, white cat. He's Yugoslavian filmmaker. I love the music in his films. I love the characters as well. They're like so raw, but also so mystical somehow. there's a film that he has that's called Time of the Gypsies, you know? I think...

Character wise and music wise, Emir Kusturica is my biggest influence. And then my favorite movie of all time is called Children of Paradise by French filmmaker Marcel Carnet. It's 1945. I love that movie.

Speaker 1 (27:22)
Look at this, Children of Paradise. Mm-hmm. Les Infants de Paris. Don't ask me this big anything but bad American English. I'm gonna read the synopsis really quick for this film. Children of Paradise, 1945. In this expansive drama, the lovely and enigmatic Parisian actress Guérance draws the attention of various men in her orbit, including the thoughtful Mime. Though Guérance and Baptiste have an undeniable connection, their fortunes shift considerably, pushing them apart as well as bringing them back together, even as they pursue other relationships and lead.

Separate Lives, directed by Marcel Carnet. What is it about this film that you love?

Speaker 2 (27:57)
It also blurs the lines between reality and fantasy a lot. And it follows a group of characters that are all in love with the same person, and the stories of their lives. And it's also, I noticed that usually I build stories around places. Like for example, Raines over Babel is obviously built around Babel.

I have other stories that are built around like my short film, Transient Passengers, it's built around this place called La Muralla Roja by architect Ricardo Bofill, which is kind of like this Escher-like staircases building. Children of Paradise also does that in the sense that there's two theaters, a theater of pantomime and a theater of people who do like Shakespeare and so on. And it kind of like the characters move between these two worlds.

Speaker 1 (28:50)
The juxtaposition right there is crazy, Big and loud and big theatrical versus like subtle, you know.

Speaker 2 (28:57)
Definitely. And also just the way that he tells the stories and shows us the arcs of the characters and the tragical aspect of it all, because it's all like, know, like star-crossed lovers. The way that he shows that and the way that he builds it, I think influenced a lot how I structured my film. Like, Bavel, for example, it's like an upside down pyramid. It's like I started with all these stories.

And then they start to join during 24 hours till they all get to a bit where we have the climax of the story

Speaker 1 (29:30)
Okay, well, I wanna talk about you developing the story of this film, but I don't wanna forget about Emir Kostarica. Serbian film director, screenwriter, actor, film producer, and musician. The first picture that pops up is him jamming on a guitar. He's been an active filmmaker since 1980s. He's competed at the Cannes Film Festival and won the Palme d'Or twice. shit. I mean, look, it frustrates me and it makes me excited at the same time that I haven't seen any of this guy's movies. But I'm glad that we talked about it and now I can. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (30:00)
He also has a great band. It's called the Emir Costa Rica and the Non-Smoking Orchestra. Beautiful.

Speaker 1 (30:07)
come on.

That's nice. Okay. in what is like one of, and then you said black cat, white cat is your favorite or one of your favorites. Time of the gypsies. Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 2 (30:16)
other films.

Those are some of my favorite films.

Speaker 1 (30:21)
And is it also kind of like a blend of realism and fantasy?

Speaker 2 (30:25)
Most definitely. But like, I think I will describe it as Eastern European magical realism.

Speaker 1 (30:32)
Okay, what is Eastern European magical realism to you?

Speaker 2 (30:35)
Well, Emir Kusturica.

Speaker 1 (30:38)
All right. All right. Okay.

Speaker 2 (30:40)
You know, just I think I really think you should watch his films. know, it's it's stories that might, you know, like might have happened. Why not? But they're so fantastical that it's hard to believe that's magical realism. You know, it's like reality is better than, know, like, or like, yeah, reality is better than fantasy in those instances. That's magical realism. And that's also, you know, like a huge thing for Latin America.

And it's what gave Latin America identity in the 1950s with all these wonderful writers, Garcia Marquez, Cortázar, Borges, you know, that came out with stories that everyone here was just like, yeah, like that could have happened. But then seeing from the outside, it's so whimsical, know, like it's almost ridiculous that you cannot believe it. that's Magic Orioles.

Speaker 1 (31:33)
Amazing. Nice, nice. Educating us. That's good. Story wise, so when you're creating this story, the pyramid, the structure that you said, the upside down pyramid, how did you come up with that? What made you think of using that?

Speaker 2 (31:43)
Well, actually, I started dreaming during the pandemic with the world of Rain, Sovereign, Riverbell. Like in my dreams, I started seeing these two characters of El Boticario, the devil, and Erato, the guardian angel. Interesting. And it was like a common thing that it was not just one day. I constantly dreamt of this world, you know? And they showed me places of the city, which was my city, but in another dimension.

Speaker 1 (32:12)
So you have the dreams? You got your dreams? See, I don't remember my dreams. I remember like the vibe and I remember maybe a little detail, but then it just goes away.

Speaker 2 (32:14)
Very much,

No way. I dream whole movies. Like sometimes I wake up and I'm like, wow, I just dreamt a movie and then I write it down. And I'm like, I need to make a script of this.

Speaker 1 (32:29)
Damn. What do I need to do that you're doing so that I can...

Speaker 2 (32:31)
Yeah, yeah.

call

it the mental vomit. It's like you little, you know, the key when you're like falling asleep, your mind starts kind of like puking things, know, like phrases, images and so on. And I just keep a little notebook under my pillow that I call the mental vomit book. And I just write down everything that comes up. And also like that's a way to like never have writers block because you just keep going back to your little book for ideas.

And then, I just started dreaming with these characters. then funny enough, they showed me Babel. And Babel in my dream was a pyramid. Of course, in real life, I couldn't have that in the film, you know, it would have been too expensive. But at least in my dreams, Babel was a pyramid with different like spaces. And that's kind of like where the idea came from. It's like, what will happen if I like join a bunch of characters in this specific spot? You know, like what?

stories can I tell. And obviously there had to be a character that crossed them that turned out to be La Flaca death personified.

Speaker 1 (33:40)
the actors, the way you went about casting, which I get this a lot with these interviews so far, there's a lot of like autobiographical elements that are like accessed and then, you in different ways of going about casting. like, seems like it really does help a film, doesn't it? instead of building something from complete scratch and saying, here you go, act, 100 % act now or whatever it is. It's like you're building in like these pieces of the person inside this character.

That is going to make it feel authentic, right?

Speaker 2 (34:13)
I think so, yeah. think, you know, like again, I love working with actors because I grew up surrounded by actors and theater actors in particular are very outspoken. They have a lot of ideas and I love the creative energy that is generated through that, you know? And again, you know, like two heads think better than one. Sure. So, and also film is in essence collaborative. you know, like it was...

An experiment, again, I didn't know that this was going to become a feature or anything, but it was an incredible happy accident to have found such talented people with such amazing minds with whom I could build the characters with. They were all theater actors that wanted to get into film. And so we began doing a series of workshops. And then one of the exercises was a character creation exercise.

where I asked them to create a character that they've always wanted to play and to create a character that will help heal something.

Speaker 1 (35:13)
So I guess I had assumed that you were doing that with a feature in mind, but yeah, I just didn't think of it that way. But that's so cool. And I think it's so important to always talk about, and always remind other people and ourselves that you don't have to have some grand, you don't want to even expect to have some grand perfect scheme laid out before you push record or before you begin, right?

Speaker 2 (35:35)
It took two years to write the script and finance the film till we were able to shoot. But definitely, I think the fun thing about this film is that it doesn't take itself too seriously. Like there's a talk in Salamander, there is a motel run by little people who is like, it has Salma's autistic shadows in it. So it's pretty out there. And I think also the fun part is that it was made without expectations.

We didn't have an agenda or like we didn't have like this big message that we wanted to send to the world. We were just a bunch of 20 year olds playing during the pandemic, doing what they loved, which was, you know, like storytelling, character creation and so on. It actually was, it wasn't till we started meeting in person to do improv exercises and like keep playing, but in person that I started seeing themes, you know, and it was through that, that I was like, okay, there's potential here to like.

You know, I build a story like an actual film.

Speaker 1 (36:36)
And they're always there, right? If you're paying attention, there's always these repeating patterns.

Speaker 2 (36:40)
I feel like just trust your collaborators and don't be afraid to write with other people or like to because like I mean I wrote the script myself but the inspiration of some of the characters came from the work that I did with these actors. A lot of the times you just have to trust that the story is going to reveal itself. Like I didn't I didn't I didn't know you know like what the story was about like what the themes were till I finished writing it.

Speaker 1 (37:00)
Sure.

Speaker 2 (37:09)
for like the first draft and I was like, okay, this is what it's about.

Speaker 1 (37:13)
legit question about just, like a life question. Like, are expectations good for anything? Do you know what I mean? Like, is there more harm than good? It seems like, cause it's a whole stoicism thing, isn't it? It's like, do you, when you, you start expecting something, you fuck yourself up because when you don't get it, you're upset. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (37:31)
I think they're harmful if you're basing your personal worth on that. A lot of artists, myself included obviously, but I try to battle with it. We base our self-worth from our work and the way it's received by other people. And that's the perfect recipe for being unhappy. I think expectations are good in the sense that

Speaker 1 (37:55)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Speaker 2 (38:00)
Okay, I have these big dreams and I want to achieve them, you know, and I'm going to do everything that's in my power to do that. And I'm going to give my very best, you know, like to reach that. And like, if your expectations or if your goals are so high, you're probably going to fail, you know, but you're probably going to fail above a lot of people's notion of success, you know? So I think in that, in that way, they're good. Like if you take them,

from the side of, I'm just gonna give my best to see if I can achieve this. It's very important to not, and to remember, because this is hard, to not lose your self-worth off of your work, and to remember that you and your work, they're separate things.

Speaker 1 (38:48)
And not even to be a new filmmaker, but even just a filmmaker, because I'm on like my fifth feature film right now, and the edit is, I'm like, fuck, did I do it? I don't know if I spent three years, it's a documentary, I don't know if I spent my time, is this gonna be any good? I don't know, and then I thought, I'm like, this is the exact same thing that happened every single time, so why am I trippin', you know? This self-doubt moment, doesn't last long, but like, I'm talking about when you're in the edit and you're kind of like,

trying to find the story. And it's different with documentary a little bit, it's just crazy. It's like, you know, wait a minute. And then something else kicks in where it's like, you're good, dude, relax, just go through the process, you know.

Speaker 2 (39:28)
Just trusting it. That's the hardest part. Trusting that maybe you're doing things right now that they're gonna be wrong. Your first cut is gonna be wrong, your first cut. And just trusting that you're gonna build off of it. A very common thing is just to get stuck. Because you have such high expectations to just stop doing things. Like a type of writer's block, like guess a filmmaker's block.

Speaker 1 (39:40)
it out.

Yeah,

totally.

Speaker 2 (39:59)
Your expectations are so high that you just prefer not to do it because you don't want to blow your expectations. And it's so hard to battle that and to remember, know, like, okay, it's okay to do things that are not perfect. This is part of the process and I'm going to be building off of it. Even if I have to, you know, like undo stuff, redo, like, or redo stuff or change things, you know, but it's just part of the process.

Speaker 1 (40:03)
That's real. Yes.

And it's that balance of like trying to, you you gotta take control to a point, to a degree, but also having the balance to let things be the way that they want it or need to be, to like pay attention, like listen just as much as you talk kind of thing, you know, it's like that kind of balance as a filmmaker.

Speaker 2 (40:39)
And also that happens even when you're done with the movie. Like I watch the film and I can see all the errors. It will have to be different and so on. But it's important to understand that that film you're doing is a reflection of who you were at the moment. And as long as you feel like you did the best you could with the best you had, I think that's okay. And it's like, okay to let go.

Speaker 1 (40:47)
Yeah, of course all the blimps.

How do you know when the film is done? It kind of leads into our next little final phase, like the editing. How do you know when you're done with the edit?

Speaker 2 (41:16)
Personally, when I used to work, I kept doing things that were fucking it up, you know, and I had to keep on doing things. So it's like, okay, I reached a point where I think this is as good as it's going to get. Cause like, if I keep doing things, I'm just going to mess it up.

Speaker 1 (41:32)
I can't, okay, yeah, okay. So it started getting worse instead of better.

Speaker 2 (41:35)
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (41:37)
How did you mix at Sony Pictures Studios? How did that come together? That's a beautiful opportunity.

Speaker 2 (41:43)
Yeah, it was an amazing opportunity. Well, first my sound designers were very well connected with Sony. They had worked before. They had mixed at the theater before, Kim Novak. And also there was not a lot happening because of the strikes. So they were available and we got it at a fairly good price as well. yeah, it was again, you know, like one of those things where

Speaker 1 (41:59)
Yes.

Speaker 2 (42:11)
My sound designer said, you know, like, sucks for everyone in LA, but it's good for you. it's trying. We were able to, you know, like it was a dream come true, I think for any filmmaker to just like sound design. We mixed the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

Speaker 1 (42:16)
timing.

It

makes me think of, so you know where the Frank Capra building is? Uh huh. I had an office right there, so that's like kind of right across-ish from the thing. But anyways, I would go there and I would just go at the coffee shop there. And I remember one time I would see, the Coen brothers walking from the mixing stage to past us. I'm like, ffff, you know what I mean? Like, whoa. know, whoa. I mean, that studio, that lot, holds a special place in my heart.

But I will say, being a filmmaker and having a little office, thanks to my friend Nancy Karhoffer, who's a big post-production supervisor, and she said, hey, I have some extra space, do you wanna come see it? And I'm like, what are you talking about? then next thing I know, I have a fucking office at Sony. Anyways, it's interesting because as a filmmaker, as a creative person, it was really cool and exciting and a big flex and the ego liked it and it was good for business. But as far as going and parking in that parking garage,

every day and walking through the lot was cool but then getting into the office I kind of lost a little bit of creative spark going there.

Speaker 2 (43:31)
Wow, that's so interesting. I used to have an office as well and it felt the same. So I understand. I was in the office for a few months and then I was like, this is killing me. I need to write in different places. Like if I feel like going somewhere outside the city to write, I need to be able to do that.

Speaker 1 (43:41)
Yeah.

Yeah, because it's so sterile in there. It's like it's an old editing bay that we were in, but it was just like, hmm, I'm not feeling, you know what I mean? You know what mean. You already saying it. felt like a cubicle, which is not good for a creative person. And also I wasn't around filmmakers really. was around with like executives and worker bees in the studio system. you know, it's just like they were more concerned with trying to license a film for airlines in that room over there versus, you know what mean? Kind of cool at the same time.

It's also one of those things where you don't, the grass is greener, you know, until you get on the other side. And then it's like, I don't need this. I'm glad I did this. I'm grateful for it, but I don't need this. So it's much better just to roll out of bed, in my opinion, and start the coffee and just get to work. That's what I like to do.

Speaker 2 (44:34)
I agree.

Speaker 1 (44:36)
So Sundance, you got Sundance, when did that come in? Like when did you get notified of that and how did that feel?

Speaker 2 (44:43)
it was probably like early November. I was having coffee with my mom and I got the call, the call. and I saw some, the Sundance programmer, was like, she gave me the news that they were inviting us to, to premiere the film, in the next category. And I almost like lost it because I love Sundance, you know, it's my favorite festival and it's honestly a dream come true. it's.

Definitely a dream come true. And the whole Sundance team has been incredible, to be honest. Like, I still cannot believe it sometimes. Like, I remember calling my brother, my sister, and my dad and telling them, because again, they were the producers of the film. And it's like, we're going to Sundance and they were like, what? What? This film? You know, like, it's crazy. And it's our first feature.

Speaker 1 (45:32)
Wait, really?

Speaker 2 (45:41)
for my siblings as well. It's so cool. Yeah, no, it's been incredible.

Speaker 1 (45:46)
What, I mean, did you, was that your, obviously your dream? that your number one choice?

Speaker 2 (45:49)
That

was my number one choice. like ever since I started writing the film, my parents asked me like, so where do you see premiering? You know, like, I was like Sundance. Sundance. And in college too, you know, like I went to Chapman University, Dutch college. We were all talking about Sundance, know, like, you're like super excited about, you know, like one day, you know, there was a friend of ours who worked in a Sundance film. And to us, it was like the coolest thing.

Speaker 1 (46:00)
Okay.

You're still young too, right? Well, you know, I'm an old man, you know, you see my grades right here.

Speaker 2 (46:21)
Eight.

Speaker 1 (46:28)
thank you. Rotterdam. You're going to Rotterdam after this, right? Which seems like a really cool festival as well.

Speaker 2 (46:33)
Yeah, I'm super excited too. Like I've never been to the Netherlands, so I'm very, very excited. We're gonna be seeing a few friends there, a bunch of four. Like actually our festival agents are coming with us. Like one of them is one of my favorite people in the world. So I'm very excited. And it's just, you know, like having the opportunity to screen with amazing filmmakers, you know, like see the lineups and I'm like.

Speaker 1 (46:53)
Amazing.

Speaker 2 (47:01)
Are you kidding that I'm screening my film with these people?

Speaker 1 (47:04)
You need it, it's a rite of passage, right?

nice to get to those moments and then to kind of just take them off the pedestal a little bit, you know?

Speaker 2 (47:10)
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (47:12)
You're going to be somebody that somebody else looks up to, you know, five years from now