E41 • Embrace The Unforeseen • AARON ROOKUS, dir. of ‘Idyllic’ at the Rotterdam Int. Film Festival

Netherlands-based director Aaron Rookus explores themes of self-acceptance, mortality, and the quest for fulfillment through the lens of filmmaking ahead of his Rotterdam Film Festival premiere of “Idyllic”. Past inspirations include Tom Tykwer’s “Run Lola Run” and the films of Charlie Kaufman.

Aaron speaks on the impact of personal experiences, such as illness and loss, on creative expression and the importance of humor in addressing serious topics. The conversation also delves into the dynamics of character development in ensemble storytelling, the role of script editors in shaping narratives, and the evolution of film consumption in the digital age. 

The conversation also reflects on the pervasive issue of loneliness in modern society, exploring themes of urban indifference, the struggle for connection in contemporary life, and the search for meaning amidst life's challenges.

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Chapters

• 0:01 Past Present Feature, Hosted by Marcus Mizelle
• 0:20 Introducing Aaron Rookus, dir. of "Idyllic" at the Rotterdam Film Festival
• 1:01 Embracing the Unforeseen & Confronting Mortality
• 6:25 "Idyllic" at the Rotterdam Int. Film Festival
• 7:40 The Ensemble Approach: Weaving Multiple Narratives
• 12:50 Finding Humor in Sadness: A Unique Perspective
• 14:20 Crafting a Cohesive Story + The Role of Script Editing
• 19:26 Challenging Systems + Loneliness in Modern Society
• 23:38 The Struggle for Connection + Urban Indifference
• 26:16 Sometimes There Is No Meaning + "American Beauty" dir. by Sam Mendes
• 28:41 The Science of Storytelling + Why Make Films?
• 33:24 Challenges and Triumphs of Making "Idyllic"
• 37:37 Past Inspo: "Run Lola Run" dir. by Tom Tykwer + The Films of Charlie Kaufman
• 41:50 IFFR: The Rotterdam Film Festival Experience
• 43:15 Filmmaking Advice: Do Your Own Stuff, Don't Copy Others

Transcript

Marcus Mizelle (00:21)
Netherlands-based director Aaron Ruckus explores themes of self-acceptance, mortality,

and the quest for fulfillment

Through the lens of filmmaking.

Aaron speaks on the impact of personal experiences such as illness and loss, on creative expression and the importance of humor in addressing serious topics. The conversation also delves into the dynamics of character development and ensemble storytelling, the role of script editors in shaping narratives, and the evolution of film consumption and the digital age.

The conversation also reflects on the pervasive issues of loneliness in modern society.

exploring themes of urban indifference.

struggle for connection in modern life, and the search for meaning amidst life's challenges.

Speaker 1 (01:01)
If you embrace the unforeseen, it will never let you down. In idyllic, I investigate the theme of self-acceptance in a variety of characters with crossing storylines. They have one thing in common, they almost learn to accept there is no path paved in front of you. Such you. Why did you feel the need to tell this story and to lean into that theme specifically?

Speaker 2 (01:22)
Well, when I was young, like 23, I was in my graduation year of Arts Academy and I had this big film. All the crew was there, everybody was ready, and then I got cancer.

Speaker 1 (01:37)
Oh my gosh, yes, I read this. You had testicular cancer when you were 22? Yeah. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (01:43)
Yeah. The cancer is like common for young men. Okay. So you get it on a very early age. And I was there quite early in the progress of the cancer. So I was lucky.

Speaker 1 (01:56)
Obviously you caught it, you guys caught it early on the early side.

Speaker 2 (02:00)
But after a year, it spread it out in my body. And I was like, okay, well, I have to get a radiotherapy now. And I was like, come on, can handle this. And after five years, they said, okay, the cancer is gone. So congratulations. But we found a new one in my kidney, which was like totally unreliable. But it was a different kind of

lump on my kidney. And then, you know, I had this box of chocolates, which I like almost put out of my bag to give it to them to say thank you for the last five years to, you know, when you took care of me. But I brought it back into my bag and I ate it on the bus on my home on my way home. And, and, and I just had to laugh so loudly because I thought this is the funniest thing I don't know.

I don't know what the world is telling me. I just don't know. And then I realized, okay, well, there is nothing the world wants to say to me. There is no path. The world can just scoop you over. Yeah. Where my realization came from, like, yeah, what the quote is about, the thing that you just.

Speaker 1 (03:21)
feel like we've been talking quite a bit about mortality in this podcast, the past few episodes. really? Maybe you attract what you're fixated on because I've been fixated on this with this project that I'm working on. about kind of, mortality is a big theme. So it's very interesting to me that, that's just my interpretation too. But yeah, it's very interesting, but also it's like, is the human experience. It's part of the human experience to be mortal and to, whenever you come up against something that threatens your

your health. mean, this is crazy for you. 22, like of course you would be, your response would be what it seems to be, you know? Life is about facing challenges, finding solidarity, embracing wonder, happiness is full. So yeah, I mean, my mom passed away when I was 22, actually same age. And that helped me. I know for sure that that also, you get a front row view of the mortality thing. And I think then it's interesting how one responds to that.

My response was similar as far as time is short, life is fleeting.

Speaker 2 (04:23)
Yeah, time is short, life is fleeting and there's nothing you can do. You know, these things just happen and you can like fight against it. Like, I'm too young for this, it shouldn't happen to me or you know, something like that. you know, that's not helpful. the only thing... Yeah, I mean, the only thing you can do is embrace it and accept that it's not all about joy, happiness, happiness. Sometimes you just have to face it.

Speaker 1 (04:40)
victim mindset.

Also, let's just, I'm gonna use a super silly probably example, but like, you know, if you're eating like delicious food all day, every day, you're not gonna appreciate it as much either. You know what I'm saying? It's like that line in vanilla sky, the sweet and the sour, you know, it really does help help you appreciate. One thing you can't, one thing I feel like I could and did do about it is you can't change the fact that we're, you know, we're gonna die. And also time is moving quickly.

Speaker 2 (05:17)
quite happy that we're dying like in the end otherwise you know

But it put things in perspective.

Speaker 1 (05:30)
Well, I think it's motivated me more than I would have if I didn't have that specific experience, which helps to get things done while you do have the time you have. It frustrates me and I try not to get frustrated, but when I have people that come and go or that are in my life that don't seem motivated, it really annoys me. But I realize also like they don't have the same experiences and they are who they are.

Speaker 2 (05:53)
I do another film, I interview with a vampire.

Speaker 1 (05:56)
Yes, the Tom Cruise direct, Tom Cruise.

Speaker 2 (05:59)
Tom Cruise, yeah. And there's this one girl, what's her name again? actress Kirsten Dunst. And at one point she says, I'm never growing old. Because she's bitten by a vampire and she will always be a child. I love that scene. I love her acting. But it also says something about mortality that, you know, that it's to be aged. That there's an end to it.

Speaker 1 (06:14)
yeah.

So your film is called Idyllic. It's premiering at the 2025 Rotterdam International Film Festival and at the big, in the big screen competition. So what is the big screen competition? What is that? It's like the top tier competition.

Speaker 2 (06:38)
I think it's 20 films and the description of the competition is they do the artistic, the mainstream and the new. So I don't know. They have the Tiger competition, which is very famous. This is for first and second time filmmakers and it's more on the arts house edges. And this is a little bit more mainstream, I guess, but it's not like.

Speaker 1 (06:49)
Okay.

Speaker 2 (07:06)
there would be a big Hollywood film in it.

Speaker 1 (07:09)
Sure, gotcha, okay. So your film is idyllic and the long line is, a life-affirming drama following different generations of an extended family searching for the same near impossible thing, perfect fulfillment of life, which proves to be a near impossible task. I mean, that's, they're all in search of a perfect fulfillment of life. What a goal for a film. And then you have a lot of different characters too. It's an ensemble story, huh? Talk about that.

Speaker 2 (07:39)
It's a Mosaic film. I started out because it, you know, I started out with a film about just one character. It was an opera singer who was in her 40s and at the height of her career. And then she got cancer. And then she realizes she is only busy with her career, has no friends, has no relationships with her family. I started out like that. And then I realized that this is not the story I want to tell because then you have this arc.

where she has to be happy with herself in the end that she's dying, like embrace that fact. I wanted to tell more ideas about the fulfillment of life. So I threw the whole script away and I just started to write scenes with characters that I enjoyed. And then there, so I wrote about this kid who is 10 years old and a classmate acts like a fortune teller and says, you have one week to live.

And then he's like, one week. Okay. What do I do now? And he gets a book, with a list, all the things you have to do when you have one week to live. And then he goes to write his best friend. He's going to forgive the people he loves. He's going to make love. you know, all the basic things. I actually, I got this list from, elderly people who were giving advice to, to young people.

Speaker 1 (09:05)
Interesting.

10 year old boy with a bucket list. That's good.

Speaker 2 (09:09)
10 year old, but a bucket list. And then I have a grandma, she's not happy with her life that she looks back on it. And then she's like, I want to die, but God doesn't take me. And then she tries to, she does some attempts for suicide. We have the actual opera singer, which I just said, it's still a part in the story, but much smaller.

Speaker 1 (09:32)
So she made her way back in.

Speaker 2 (09:34)
She made her way back in and what I did with this story is that she gets the news that she gets cancer and then she starts thinking about this other life. What if she had made different choices? So it's like a sliding doors thing. And then you follow this woman as well who chose in her life very safely. So she got a husband that she doesn't really love, but she has a husband and a kid and a house.

She has old, she ticked all the boxes but she isn't happy.

Speaker 1 (10:07)
What's more sad than that? When you see these characters, you see a lot of this in film too, feel like, in real life as well, it's just so sad to have people be with some people that aren't in love with them or aren't happy. I mean, I guess it happens, right? I haven't seen your film, I wish I could have seen your film, it sounds fantastic. But were they in love and then they went out of love? Or what happened there? Okay, yes. They got what they asked for, really.

Speaker 2 (10:26)
Stitcho safety.

They got what they asked for and they got, I think they also chose, in Dutch you have an expression that you have a house with a garden and some animals and some kids. I mean, that's what society says. That's the goal you have to... That's of course bullshit.

Speaker 1 (10:46)
Sure.

Bye.

That that that that that's been given to you and not questioning it or anything.

Speaker 2 (10:58)
Yeah, I think a lot of people do that.

Speaker 1 (11:00)
I would say it's most people maybe at least I don't know the percentage, but I feel like it's most people for sure

Speaker 2 (11:05)
Yeah. And then there's the last line. It's about this gay guy. He's in his forties and he just came out of the closet and then he goes on a date in markets and then he realizes I'm too old already. And he realizes the best years have been already there. What do I do now? And then, you know, his story is that it's not about coming out of the closet, but just looking for happiness. that something?

You you should achieve, he's achieving it in the wrong ways.

Speaker 1 (11:40)
in this new chapter halfway through your life. Yeah, that's always an adventure. But also that's a character you can get behind for sure. Like a character that wants to reinvent himself or herself, right? I love that. love that. Amazing. So you have four main characters. Is that correct?

Speaker 2 (11:55)
Well, there's also the husband of the opera singer's double-ganger. Do you still follow? He is actually based on my father. And it's quite a sad character. my parents are divorced. And my mom told me like 20 years ago, he's just, and he was like 45 or 40.

Speaker 1 (12:03)
Gotcha.

Speaker 2 (12:23)
He's just waiting for his retirement. And that is what a lot of people are doing, just waiting for their retirement. now, you know, he was just putting it open his papers and hiding behind the newspaper all day.

Speaker 1 (12:25)
Wow.

yeah. Yeah, have flashbacks of my parents in a way, you know.

Speaker 2 (12:43)
So this character is just waiting for life to pass by and to get to the end. And it's a funny film, I have to say that.

Speaker 1 (12:52)
so it's funny. What do mean? Like it's funny? like,

Speaker 2 (12:55)
Every time I talk about these characters, it feels kind of depressing, but there's a lot of humor in the film. And when I started out telling about that I had to laugh in the bus on my way home, there was a feeling that I wanted to have in the film that, one hand, it's really sad. And on the other hand, it's the way you look at it. It can be very funny. And that thin line that is the...

Sassy comedy, I think.

Speaker 1 (13:27)
When do you stop being, like if you're gonna be sad, you're gonna be sad, you're gonna be sad, okay, then what? What if I do something else besides be sad? I mean, it's just like this fucking comedy of errors almost in a way, right? That's kind of what that's based on. It's like this comedy of errors. I mean, good for you though. It takes somebody to make that decision though too, I think, to shift. And a lot of people do get in like this victim mindset. Why me, why me, poor me, poor me.

Right? I think so. That's a dangerous thing because that leads to more suffering, know, more complaining. You don't move on. You just stick in it. You stay in it. So I'm so sad. Everybody sucks. you know, whatever. It's like, no, don't be a victim. Get out there and do something different. Do what you have not done before. What you're doing ain't working. And then you keep doing it and it still ain't working. And why would you continue to do it?

Speaker 2 (14:19)
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (14:20)
So writing the stories, what made you want to do an ensemble? When did you have that clarity to say, this could be several characters instead of just one protagonist?

Speaker 2 (14:29)
Well, it was six years ago, I started writing this in one summer, 2018. It was very hot in Europe and I couldn't do anything after 12 because it was a heat wave of two months. I threw all my former stories overboard. Somebody said, because I had a, you know, my first attempt was a screenplay with this woman of her forties. And somebody said, no, you should do it from your own perspective as a young

guy in his 20s. So I started it out and then it didn't work either. So I just threw it all away and I just started writing all the scenes that I liked. yeah, know, conversation with the son and his father, or his father says, you're not special. That's the best to remember. You're not special. Remember that this really, really help you. So different. I just, you know, had this key scenes and then

Speaker 1 (15:14)
Well,

Speaker 2 (15:28)
I had a very good script editor. Nice. And she said, this belongs to this world, this belongs to this world, this is the theme. she created clarity in the chaos of all the scenes that I had. then I realized, okay, so this is actually the heart of the film that all these characters do something very different, but

Speaker 1 (15:45)
Okay.

Speaker 2 (15:57)
because you tell the stories behind each other, they get the meaning of every scene can be quite different because all the characters interact. One thing can be very sad for one character, but because it's opposite of another character, it can be really relative and become funny.

Speaker 1 (16:05)
Okay.

The reactions are different.

Speaker 2 (16:20)
Yeah, so that is something that was really interesting in writing the film, of composing the film actually. It's more like composing the scenes together.

Speaker 1 (16:31)
Your script editor, so how do you know when you found the right script editor? How did that relationship start, I guess is my question. And then also, that's somebody to trust, if anyone, right? You just feel good about her notes, like how did that relationship start? I've never been through that process where I'm actually, and it sounds wonderful, where I I send out and get notes from people, but like I haven't had an actual designated script editor.

Speaker 2 (16:55)
Well, we were in this development program called Boost NL. NL is for the Netherlands. It was something that IFFR, the Rotterdam Film Festival did together with the Dutch Film Festival and there was a script editor attached. A good friend of mine organized that and he said, I have like a wonderful script editor for you. And it was Anna Sinek from Les Arq Film Festival. She's the head of

acquisition, I don't know, but she's fantastic and she really dove into the film. So she was attached to our project and we had one week with her and then she, you know, she asked me questions. So where's the story coming from? What is your idea behind it? So it's like an interview. And then she had this very good analysis of the film. And later on, I don't know if you know Eave? No.

the producers club where you producers can come with a film and we were at the beginning of the pandemic in Luxembourg with this club of people and we also had an Irish script editor so this was the next script editor and this is you know with all these development programs it really helps you because you get a lot of great international people on board and and with this EAVA

project it's three times in a year. So you have three appointments with the same script editor and time between them in which you can develop your story. Yeah, and you know, they are the best. So that helped.

Speaker 1 (18:39)
just submit for that, essentially.

Speaker 2 (18:41)
They got us with the script. The hardest part about this film was the synopsis because I didn't write a synopsis beforehand. I just started out making scenes and I had a script beforehand and then I had to bring it back to a synopsis and that was the hardest part.

Speaker 1 (18:58)
Gotcha. Because to uniform it a little bit.

Speaker 2 (19:02)
All

these six lines of stories and how they interact.

Speaker 1 (19:07)
Sure. Is that something you've always struggled with or just for this project?

Speaker 2 (19:12)
No, just for this project because there so many lines. And I'm just really glad that the film is finished and that I have a trailer because now I don't have to pitch the film anymore because it's really hard to...

Speaker 1 (19:15)
Sure. Yeah.

Bitch. In your press kit, reading, what inspired you to create a film about meaningfulness? And then you say you feel like one of these human batteries from the Matrix sometimes where a slave plugged into a machine serving the system. This kind of shift fuels a deep sense of loneliness, which is another major issue of our age. That is some real shit.

Speaker 2 (19:42)
Yeah, but do you feel the same?

Speaker 1 (19:44)
Yeah, of course. think so. think it's always, think, yeah, I think there's always a, look, I'm always like, fuck the man, honestly. Like I just had, I don't know, I just like the man, down with the man. You know what I mean? Like the system, you know, I'm not an anarchist, but I do believe in challenging, or at least questioning authority because my instinct tells me to do that sometimes, you know? And it's just like, it's just at least, don't, that's definitely the approach over just, you know, putting your fingers in your ears and you know.

pretending like nothing is wrong. Anyways, as far as the systems in place, there's some frustrating things out there. The converse, I am actually genuinely amazed at how all of this works so well as far as the human experience in like modern society. It's kind of crazy that it actually does work as well as it does. I you're halfway across the planet. Well, not quite, but almost. And like we're here just having this nice free flowing conversation and it's just,

We're lucky, like, you know, I don't want to complain too much about things, but at the same time, the systems in place are annoying as hell. But then this kind of sense of loneliness that can creep in when you don't have certain elements in your life. You know, I think connectivity and community is an important thing with that. That's my opinion. But also, like, where's the line between having a community and leaning on a community or, like, you know, somebody who maybe hangs out too much and doesn't take care of themselves? Like, solitude's a good thing, too.

You know, so I think it's like with anything else, it's a balance. Balance is the key. But yeah, as far as our age and how loneliness taps into it being a major issue of our age, social media of course is not helping. A lack of being present in the moment is kind of a big, I think, big cause of this. And the thing is we went from an analog to a digital world. So it's kind of crazy to think about that. We literally went from like,

having to use our imagination and being present and talking and, know, until literally just looking at our phone. That is really causing a lot of of lack of fulfillment.

Speaker 2 (21:53)
But it's also, I've read this book, it's called The Loneliness of the City. don't know, it's an American writer. don't have the title here, but she said, everyone in the city is more lonely despite that we live so close to each other, but there's too many people to know, so you don't know anyone. I realized that I hated the city a few years ago and there was a guy sleeping.

Speaker 1 (22:14)
It's so interesting.

Speaker 2 (22:22)
before the supermarket and he didn't move and people were just passing, know, stepping and stepping over his legs. And and I was like, I don't want to be this person who just walks by a guy who is probably dead. but I didn't know what to do. So I called a friend. What should I do? What should I do? And she said, you can call the police and they will get in touch because I know beforehand I tried to like

Are you still alive? This was in Amsterdam and then suddenly he like... And he had his drugs in his hands and it was really crazy and it creeped me out and then I called the police, please check this guy. But beforehand, just people were just passing, stepping over him and I'm like...

Speaker 1 (22:54)
This is Amsterdam.

every day in LA.

LA is just like a lot. It's a pretty bad problem. Yeah. Yeah. But it's a whole crazy. I don't

Speaker 2 (23:18)
to

be like that. I don't want to live in that society where people just like

Speaker 1 (23:22)
It's something to think about. because you become, it's like normal, quote unquote. It's what you tell yourself. It's like, this is what it is. Then that's when things really start to happen, right? But as an individual, you feel so hopeless. Like, what can I do?

Speaker 2 (23:37)
Yeah, and I mean, as an individual, cannot do anything because you are, you know, you are part of this bigger thing. That's what, you know, makes me lonely sometimes. No, just see a lot of people, also a lot of friends who are in their 40s, they're single, working at home, and then are in their apartment, upstairs.

Speaker 1 (24:00)
Without working.

Speaker 2 (24:06)
five stories high in their apartment with two doors that you have to go to so they don't meet people. It's also how we do our architecture now, that it's all gated communities. the architecture is also making you lonely because you don't meet any other people. Because there's a hallway with all doors and you close and that's it.

Speaker 1 (24:31)
my gosh, it's so interesting. Yeah, I that's the value. You start thinking, I start thinking about my hometown in North Carolina, small town, 20,000 people. back then, you know, the mall, the mall was kind of a town square back in the, you know, late eighties, early nineties. That was my version growing up or the movie theater. I don't know what it's like to grow up in a city, you know? And now being in LA, I was in New Orleans for two years. My film, my community was the film, the people that worked on movies, you know, I just worked on movies all the time.

being a crew person, that was a community, that was nice. Here in LA, you know, I did more directing and producing and working from home, a lot of working from home, doing this from home. And it does, there's this need, I feel like I need to maintain a social, I'm a very social person. I feel the need to make sure that I've got my social life. But also I so enjoy kind of finding that little pocket of solitude where I could just get into my work too. So personally, I'm happy.

where I'm at, but it takes work though. It does take work. And it's one of those things where you start feeling a little funky. Another thing that helps me out is exercise, a little bit of exercise, which just totally helps out. But it's like, there's some sort of natural thing that makes you want to just stay inside and be protected. Sit on the couch. That is not good. It's not good. You gotta get out and try something, because it ain't as bad as you think it is. What if I go somewhere or do something and meet somebody and they don't like me? That doesn't really happen like that, you know? It's just this weird fucked up thing in your head.

Speaker 2 (25:59)
But it's also like a, it feels like that we have a muscle that we are not using that much anymore and it's the muscle about making connection.

Speaker 1 (26:09)
Yeah, and people are products of their environment and our environment is wonky. So back to your movie though. So, okay, your film. Did you ever find out what the universe was trying to teach you with that cancer diagnosis?

Speaker 2 (26:22)
Yeah, I think it taught me that there's nothing to teach.

Speaker 1 (26:26)
yeah, that. There's no problem to fix, right? We like to, is that what you say? There's nothing to learn sometimes.

Speaker 2 (26:34)
Yeah, there's no point. To me, there's no point except to stay in the moment and to show each other and see beauty. mean, that's what I think. If you're always busy with the future or with the past, then you're not in the moment. And it's really hard to be in the moment. But if you are, do you know the film American Beauty? That is being in the moment.

That is like that you see that you are there and you see this fantastic. I saw it when I was, I don't know, 16 or so. And I thought that is exactly what it is to be in a moment and to see that. To to yeah, that movie is hard to notice those moments when you are, you know, living your busy life.

Speaker 1 (27:17)
It's hard

You can always look into the future too much trying to plan or you can look in the past with something that either you regret or something that you miss. And it's like neither one of those, maybe for a little bit they can serve their purpose, but man, yeah, living in the past is not good.

Speaker 2 (27:43)
What

if I did this back in the days, what if I chose differently?

Speaker 1 (27:47)
Yeah, yeah, I try not to, I try to just delete the word regret out of my mind. American Beauty, it's funny because the first feature I made back in 2009 in North Carolina, we used American Beauty trailer music for our trailer, for our first trailer. I never forget that. Yeah, I mean, it's like sometimes, like human beings just want to like solve problems, even when there's no problem. I really do think this. And it's not until you calm down and, you get to a point in your mind, whether through a hard life lesson,

or say, I don't know, psychedelics or whatever. Like you realize there is no problem most of the time. A lot of it's self-imposed. So it's very interesting. It's very interesting. We want meaning, we want purpose. It's like, and it's just so fascinating to me as to why we need that so bad. And maybe it's because of the, I was listening to a Audible is a book called Science of Storytelling. Basically the first chapter or two he's talking about

Speaker 2 (28:32)
Sometimes there's no meaning.

Speaker 1 (28:46)
Greek storytelling. They're the ones that kind of started this individualism approach to like story and how. Yeah, and the individual mindset of like, you know, it's like, that wasn't always a thing, you know, and I think that might've created kind of like what we're talking about now, which is this kind of need for sense of purpose. You know, that's how we can make sense of things because we grew up with that three act structure, that mythic storytelling.

Speaker 2 (28:56)
to us.

Speaker 1 (29:15)
Then he talks about how Chinese storytelling and some of other Asian storytelling is so different and that we can't even understand it because we weren't, I wasn't, the Western world wasn't really exposed to it. So it's just like, maybe it's not a human thing so much as just a civilization passed down type thing as far as like sense of purpose, need for understanding, da da da. We're a little self-important. I mean, here's a question for you, film related. We're gonna get back into your film.

Why do you make films? This is a big question.

Speaker 2 (29:47)
Oh yeah, why do I make films? Because expound my death, think. It's expound my English word. Because otherwise I wouldn't know what to do. I thought about what if I had an office job or I think I would die or I would kill myself. Every time a film is finished, I have three new stories in my head already.

Speaker 1 (30:13)
Okay.

A storyteller, you're natural storyteller.

Speaker 2 (30:17)
Yeah, just am really in the lucky position that I can make a living with the things I like, which is telling stories. I just get really depressed if I have to do otherwise. So I think it's just something that I need to do. Yeah, that's why I think make films.

Speaker 1 (30:37)
That's great. Yeah, and I just, I've had like 40 or 50 different jobs. Many office jobs. I was a librarian once. I really enjoyed that job. That was a really, really wonderful job. That and working at a cafe. Love those jobs. They don't pay shit, you know? But it's like, there was just this peace. And library is like the place where the information is, you know what I mean? It was wonderful. But totally a great job while you're trying to figure out what you're doing in your very early 20s, late teens.

Speaker 2 (31:08)
Yeah, I did the same. I worked in restaurants and stuff and I did so many things and I still I mean, I'm exaggerating, of course, a little bit. Of course, I can make a living of other things, but it always, you know, is there.

Speaker 1 (31:22)
The value of like having all those jobs and then all being so low paying I mean really kind of like you know it's like okay wait a minute I thought about I had this thought it just came in there just popped in there I'm like wait a minute if all of these jobs that I don't want to do really are paying so little then I might as well do it what exactly I want to do if you know what I mean and it's funny because now I'm like making way more I mean you know as far as annually I'm making way more than I ever would have I would have just stayed put

and played it safe and all that. And it's just like, good job 21 year old me, or 20 year old me, good job. Or whatever the reason was that thought popped in my head. But I'm like, cool, all this kind of sucks. So might as well do what I want to do. And it goes back to what we've been talking about. People just getting out of their kind of like path that they think is set for them. It's like, nah, wait a minute. I think there's more to this. And even though nobody's telling me there's more to this, my mom,

helped me a little bit along here. She was from the country and she was like, you should be a filmmaker. And it's like, what? You think I should be a filmmaker? So I gotta give her Your mom said so? Yes, yes. say she's from the country because people from the country don't make films. Do you know what I mean? Like usually, their view would be that, know, it's like, they're working class. That seems like a fun thing to do. How can you make that a job? But you know, for some reason she knew that I wanted to be a filmmaker before me.

Speaker 2 (32:31)
So.

Speaker 1 (32:55)
there was still this kind of like, okay, how do I do that? Where's the path for that? So it's important to just, I guess, say to yourself, what am I not seeing here that's actually also an option? Because it goes back to what you were saying about these characters in your film, where they settled. They did the thing that they thought would just give them this solidity and they'd be safe, but then they find themselves having a midlife crisis, it seems. Well, you got what you signed up for with that kind of thing.

So production of your film, how long did you shoot and what were some kind of highlights and challenges to this film during production?

Speaker 2 (33:32)
Well, one of the challenges was a financial gap. So inflation went up 10 % and you finance a film a few years ahead. So that was a thing. So I started out with 37 days as a shooting period and in the end I had 31. And the hardest part, mean, films...

don't ever have enough cash. So, you know, you always have to adjust your project. But the hard part of this project was because it's supposed to film if you like, take one thing out, then the whole structure will fall down. So I couldn't take take things out. I just didn't know what to do. Because I wrote it myself as well. So I didn't have the distance to the project. Like I could remove this.

And of course in the editing you take scenes out and then I realized, okay, this could have been killed beforehand, but...

Speaker 1 (34:34)
Well, you don't see it sometimes, right? You just don't see it.

Speaker 2 (34:37)
see it, especially not in a Mosaic film where I'm really still have a hangover of the scenes that we have to cut out because it tells so much more about the characters but it was too complex for the storyline.

Speaker 1 (34:54)
That's a hard

thing. Like I'm doing it right now. When I get off with you, I'm gonna go edit this documentary. And it's like, man, I don't know what to cut, but I know I have to cut some stuff. I'm not putting out a two hour and 45 minute movie, but it's like, what do I cut out? You gotta make choices, hard choices.

Speaker 2 (35:11)
Yeah, I still feel the pain. No, we had a very good editor and we had some couple of audience meetings and the audience said, this is too much and don't get it. We don't get it. And then we cut it down till at least 50 % got it. Yeah, you know, I had this, I talked to some people two days ago who saw the movie.

Speaker 1 (35:29)
50 % from there.

Speaker 2 (35:37)
they didn't get it and I panicked but I thought oh I hope you are on that part of the 50 % people. I mean in two weeks it's the premiere and then we will see.

Speaker 1 (35:51)
Yeah, it happened, right? It happens, like no matter what. Can you ever make a film where every single person's gonna be like, my God, that's so great. It's not gonna happen. Yeah, yeah. So DVDs, though, how much do you miss the physical media of it all? Are you one of those people? Because I'm kind of a freak about that.

Speaker 2 (36:07)
Well,

I have lot of DVDs, special editions, which are now quite rare, I don't... wonderful. Yeah. But the thing is, I rarely watch a film twice. So I don't take a look at the DVDs and I don't know what to do with them. I want to save them because it was my... When I was in my 20s and I thought these were the films that formed me.

Speaker 1 (36:20)
out

Speaker 2 (36:36)
I don't, you know, in your 20s are so, your 10 and 20s are so wonderful watching films because they broaden your horizon. And every time I watch a film now, I'm like, eh, it's not that interesting.

Speaker 1 (36:52)
Unless it's like extraordinary kind of thing, right?

Speaker 2 (36:54)
Yeah, and I'm aiming for that extraordinary bit. Of course, it's like, almost impossible. it's really hard to get surprised by a film that really sticks on you after you're 35-ish.

Speaker 1 (37:12)
I felt the same. Anything you watched recently that you do feel that you loved?

Speaker 2 (37:19)
Recently, like one year ago, was The Holdovers. I loved that movie. That was a film that could go on for hours and I just want to wade in that world and be with these characters. That was something fantastic.

Speaker 1 (37:36)
Cool. Okay, well, what about the past films that you grew up with? What were some things that kind of changed your life or at least your way of seeing movies?

Speaker 2 (37:45)
Are you familiar with Lola Rent?

Speaker 1 (37:49)
Lola rent run Lola run. That's the American title. yeah. It's a taekwondo. I always fuck his last name up. Taekwondo. Tom taekwondo. That movie was so different. It was so different. It's like how was

Speaker 2 (37:58)
Thank you.

saw

that movie and then I realized, what the hell? What can you do with structure? You can start over again? Well, you can just start over again, apparently. That movie was something like totally different and especially structure. I love structure and non-linear structures. So that was a movie that really shaped my identity as a filmmaker, I guess.

Maybe it was a start, like I want to do this as well. So I think at that time I wrote a film, I think I was 14. I wrote a film in the same structure with three characters and you would follow them each. It was a love triangle story. was 14 years old. And it was a killing in the end. then you watch the story three times and then in the end you realized how

Speaker 1 (38:42)
Amazing.

my god

Speaker 2 (39:01)
this killing was about to be done by the main character. But it was inspired by Rondo Larran.

Speaker 1 (39:10)
So you wrote your first film at 14. First feature, first film. Amazing.

Speaker 2 (39:16)
I mean,

Louis V. James. 10 minutes.

Speaker 1 (39:19)
That's amazing though. Also, what a time period. Like 1998, Ronald LaRona, I you had so many wonderful movies coming out then. It was before, of course, all the CG and Marvel and all that stuff. But it was like they were totally bending and breaking all types of structures. mean, movies, like being John Malkovich just popped up as a recommendation. It's like, like, things, just, Magnolia, like whatever. mean, close your eyes and pick a movie. So good. We got spoiled.

I think we have an obligation as filmmakers our age. have to figure out how to like, I don't know what you call it, pass the torch down or, I just wanna like recreate, not recreate, but I wanna maintain. And if we have to recreate the culture and then have my kid to have what we had.

Speaker 2 (40:06)
Charlie Kaufman was also a big inspiration for this film and he blew up my mind when I was a student.

Speaker 1 (40:13)
Which one? Being John Malkovich?

Speaker 2 (40:16)
Meditation

was fantastic and course eternal sunshine of the spotless mind.

Speaker 1 (40:22)
yeah, yeah, of course, yeah. my gosh, so good. So you would say Charlie Kaufman's definitely an inspiration for this film? Idealic, your latest? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:32)
what you can do with structure as well and how to dive into different dimensions, I guess, and different storylines, story worlds behind each other. What he has done in adaptation, starting in his former film on the set of, then introducing himself, having a twin brother, writing about a book, be in that book.

back to the start of the earth. It's, it's, that film is crazy.

Speaker 1 (41:07)
It's, yeah, and you're just, but it's a ride and it's like, it is crazy. It's crazy good.

Speaker 2 (41:13)
And it's about an orchid, flower. That's whole name it.

Speaker 1 (41:18)
It's such a mmm. Just such a not how do you even describe that movie as far as the tone of it the filling of it? It's just cinema. It's like this like this wonderful Chris Cooper's character with the Meryl Streep on Everything just got that that unique fresh Quality yeah, know and that was that was that was the whole thing back then I feel like it was hard to find a fucking bad movie. Yeah, I feel like you're here to now. It's like Whatever I'm gonna have to stop myself two more questions one Rotterdam

Film Festival, International Festival of Rotterdam, is that what it's called? IFFR. So what is that like? You've screened there before, right?

Speaker 2 (41:58)
Yeah, my first film was there as well. I was in the limelight section. know, Rotterdam is an hour from Amsterdam. It's a totally different city than Amsterdam. why it's so lovely is that everybody can come on my premiere. So my family, friends, colleagues. We premiere in an IMAX venue. So 400 people can see the film. So I'm really excited for that and also kind of nervous.

But it's like, you know, close by, I've also heard about premieres, which are abroad and on the International Film Festival, and there are like 20 people in venue. If you are like on a very small film on a very big festival and you are somewhere, you know, at 11 o'clock you have your premiere.

Speaker 1 (42:48)
Yeah, I've experienced that.

Speaker 2 (42:52)
So

this is, no, so this feels like really good. It's sold out. There's a party afterwards and you know, the vibe is really low key. So it's not like people wearing fancy dresses and it's really, the vibe is good.

Speaker 1 (43:13)
So last question for you. What would you tell your younger filmmaking self if you could go back in time? What advice would you give?

Speaker 2 (43:20)
to myself. Do your own stuff, don't copy others.

Speaker 1 (43:26)
Well, it seems like you've done that. So this seems like a very unique film. I hope you have a great premiere. I do want to see it.

Speaker 2 (43:33)
Yeah, thank you so much.