E43 • Environmental Awareness Through Cinema • DANIEL & AUSTIN STRAUB, dir. of ‘Out of Plain Sight’ - AUDIENCE WINNER at the Santa Barbara Film Festival + Slamdance + DOC NYC

Director Daniel Straub and cinematographer (and brother) Austin Straub discuss their film “Out of Plain Sight”, which just won the Audience Award at Santa Barbara, ahead of their LA premiere with Slamdance. Past influences include Alex Garland’s “Annihilation”.

The conversation explores the themes of environmental awareness and the legacy of chemical pollution, the power of documentary filmmaking and the authenticity that comes from capturing real stories, emphasizing the impact a documentary can have on public perception.

Also explored is the evolving landscape of documentary filmmaking, where fiction and non-fiction increasingly blend, and the ongoing need for accessible storytelling that resonates with viewers.

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Chapters

• 0:01 Past Present Feature, Hosted by Marcus Mizelle
• 0:20 Introducing Dir. Daniel Straub and Cinematographer Austin Straub of "Out of Plain Sight" at SBIFF + Slamdance

Transcript

Marcus Mizelle (00:20)
Director Daniel Straub and cinematographer and brother Austin Straub discuss their film Out of Plain Sight, which just won the Audience Award at Santa Barbara ahead of their LA premiere with Slamdance. Past influences include Alex Garland's Annihilation.

The Conversation explores the themes of environmental awareness and the legacy of chemical pollution, the power of documentary filmmaking, and the authenticity that comes from capturing real stories,

a documentary can have on public perception. Also explored is the evolving landscape of documentary filmmaking, where fiction and nonfiction increasingly blend, and the ongoing need for accessible storytelling that resonates with viewers.

Marcus Mizelle (00:59)
My first thoughts were, like, that's right there. You know, it's right there. Like, we're screwed. And we've been screwed. And then also when you guys showed like how it's happening elsewhere too, all around, it's just like, man, like we grew up thinking that everything was in its place and nice and neat and tucked away. No, not the case. And this film is a reminder of that aspect, I feel like. Yeah, there's an interesting line like towards the beginning of the film where

someone says like the thinking back in the day was dilution is the solution to pollution. And I think like back when all this was happening, people were like, yeah, like if we put this in a large enough body of water, basically is harmless. And, and it's just fascinating because the way these chemicals bio accumulate and never break down, they do end up just reaccumulating. And we're, we're going to be living with that. like the guy at the end of the film says, Mark Gold.

He's a scientist now with NRDC, but he makes the point that like, this is not a story that's told in decades, but probably in centuries. And while like we're still putting out chemicals that are going to be doing this and we're going to be reckoning with the consequences for it for long after any of us are gone. So it just shows you how much we don't know anything. It's not even that far. It's like what? 10 miles off the coast of LA essentially. Is that correct? 10 miles. Yeah. Yeah. I think that the radial circle.

is like 10 miles to the edge, 12 to center, I think is pretty much what it breaks down to. So yeah. Oh my God. Yeah, that's crazy. So let me ask you guys. Well, first of all, I think it's like, this reminds me of the power of what we do for a living, know, especially if you're making documentaries or just films in general, like, you know, it's an activism approach to where it's like, you know what, like, yes, these things, these things are happening in the world that are just terrible or whatever, but.

power of film, know, the power to be able to put it into like an hour and a half to two hour, whatever package and to just learn, you know, teach people without, of course, giving them some sort of informative delivery, but more of an emotional engagement, you know, which your film does. And it's just like, I didn't, how did I not know about this? That's the biggest thing. It's like, how did I not know? So thank you all for taking the time to do this. It's crazy that

you're in the middle of premiering and screening and all this right now. So I know it's just still like you're inside of it, but how does it feel to finally get this message out to people? Like, are you seeing like people kind of shocked or what, has the response been? think, yeah, I mean, I think, I think part of what's interesting about this is we, we heard about this story through Rosanna Shaw's initial article and back out where like, man, like it would be really cool to work on a doc like that.

one day and we were things at the time like we were on other projects. And then eventually, he kind of started wrapping things up and asking the inevitable what's next question. And we were like, still haunted by the story and kind of like he said, it was it's, it's just off our coast. every time you look at the ocean, after reading the article she wrote, you can't help but think about this being out. And

We reached out to her and kind of made our appeal of like, Hey, we want to do a doc. We don't really know what it's going to be because the science is still unfolding. We don't really know what container to live in, but like we think this could be something. And we didn't know at the time, but she had been pitched on it like 14 plus other like other like, you weren't the only one that saw that article. Yeah. It's always that fresh reminder of, yeah. When we started making it and like it really

became clear to us that like she was the way the public has gotten to know the story. like, most people are not getting unfortunately their news from reading the newspaper anymore. They're finding it out in other ways. issue like this, we felt like would really lend itself to the documentary format. And I think being on sort of the other side of having made it and we're still within our first thousand people that have seen the film.

This is our second festival and it's just been incredibly meaningful. I think for a while we weren't sure what to do with the ending of the film because it was a messy ending. And I think one of our friends who's also a documentarian, Tim Grant, he's incredibly talented. He was a producer on a film called The Bitter Pill that we just watched last night. Oh yeah. Clay's movie. Clay Twill. Yeah, Clay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How did how was the movie? Phenomenal. Yeah, it's fucking incredible. He's pretty good. He's pretty good.

Clay actually helped me with a documentary project five years ago, him and Shannon on a basketball dock. Yeah, yeah. I was going around town pitching, pitch meetings with Clay and Shannon. That's so cool. But he made the point with that film. It had a messy ending. And he said for a while they weren't really sure what to do with that. But then as it started to make its way out into the world, he realized that like the messy ending just means that it sits with people longer. It's not.

a problem that gets tied up really neatly and then you don't have to think about it anymore. It's like, okay, well everything ended happily. So I guess we're fine now. The thing that I'm realizing as it rolls out is like that forces people to live with it. Like we've been getting stopped walking up and down State Street and people are like, I saw your film last night. I can't stop thinking about it. And I'm like, that is the coolest thing to hear. I think also like you guys land heavy on like a nice call to action, which is great too though, right? Even though you don't have some sort of maybe quote unquote ending of like some

bow tied tightly at the end. Okay, thanks for coming. It's like, you have that call of action. I think the purpose of this film, at least my takeaway of the purpose of this film is to just simply like, just to understand what's going on and to know what's going on and then to like, just be aware of like, y'all need to know this. Yeah, we were so struck by, we have the quote, open the movie actually from Rachel Carson's book, Silent Spring, who wrote about this issue.

way back in like 1963. she says the obligation to give us the right to know. And it's this idea of like, okay, we're here on this planet. We can't change that fact, right? Like we're here, things have been done and we deserve to know what those things are. Like if we have to live with them, we have to know what they are. And I think that was kind of the foundational principle. That was what was surprising too about part of the doc whenever I think it was about halfway through maybe where you

You say how this wasn't a secret. This was public knowledge. They literally hired a company to take this offshore and dump these barrels of, I should read the synopsis of your film. Let me do that real quick. What if you lived in a coastal city, never knowing that the ocean hit a deadly poison? That's exactly what LA residents did for decades until a scientist alerted LA Times journalist Rosanna Shah to a problem ignored by officials for years. They discovered that as many as half a million barrels of DDT waste had been dumped into the ocean.

and are finally able to connect the dots between six sea lions, a poison ecosystem, and the legacy of health issues and all who've been exposed. So yeah, just so we're clear as to what this is about, literally dumping poisonous waste into 10 miles off the coast of LA in the early 60s. Yeah, I was shocked that like, this was not a secret. It makes me think about the house that I rent out here in LA. It's a great house, love a house. When I moved in here, I had a little bit of a smell to like a chemically kind of like a, long story short, it was like a heavy, it was a heavy end hydrocarbon.

is what it was, meaning there was this kind of slight smell when it would get hot coming up from the old oil-based furnace system under the house. And so anyways, I'm talking to these guys, we got it figured out, we got the fans put in, we pumped it out, we figured out the solution, but we had this conversation about how back then they didn't know what they were doing. You know what I mean? And it's like, kind of reminds me of this as far as like, they didn't know what they were doing, but how do you not stop and think, hey, maybe this is gonna be unhealthy?

They didn't think of it that way then, right? They were just trying to get shit done, I guess. There was a saying back then, dilution is the solution to pollution. And it was this idea that big enough place that kind of no matter what you threw in there, it's big enough that that's never gonna come back to haunt us, right? And so was kind of the accepted wisdom at the time that that was safe to do. Out of sight, out of mind almost.

Yeah, and I think that's kind of the main takeaway from this movie is like there wasn't really anything nefarious being done. It was more so just like, hey, we thought that this was like, okay to do. And now decades later, we're seeing these chemicals re accumulate in the bodies of the wildlife. And that's super concerning and something that we need to be looking into. And like to the point of it being legal and known about at least by some people at the time was that like the archival footage that we pulled for the film

Austin was editor archival producer. I want to talk about that too. So enjoyable the way you guys pulled that and did an editor that loved that aspect of this film. Yeah. And like the archival material, it wasn't that people were like caught in the act on camera doing this. Like most of those archival shots were filmed as like tutorials. Like here's how you do this thing. Here's how you can dispose of this kind of waste. Here's

Like it was processed footage. wasn't like an expose that someone sneaked a camera in to discover the history. That's kind of what we were reckoning with during the course of piecing together the story with Rosanna was, and she says it in the film at one point is like, was this a secret chapter of history or did we just forget about it? And the more you learn, the more you realize how much you forgot. But one of our other scientists in the film who works with the sea lions, she,

made the point to us while we were filming that nature has a better memory than we do. go back in time a little bit. Let's just go back in time to you guys' origin story. You guys are brothers, clearly, right? I just want to confirm that. don't know you guys met separately and have the same last name, look exactly the same. So how did you guys start? Did you guys make films when you were little? What's your origin stories as filmmakers? Yeah, I mean, we have the classic story of like we've been doing this since we were like...

Nine children. mean, like we, we. Home video camera. Oh yeah. But like really, I think the moment that we started doing stories instead of just like taking pictures, filming stuff was there was this like Steeleberg Lego set that came out that had a little USB camera and you could do stop motion videos with it. And we would like, we would spend hours just like doing stop motion stuff. And it was like, Oh, you can like.

do this. Like there's like storytelling in this. And it wasn't just like we were filming and annoying our family members with it or something. yeah, we just kind of stuck with it. Just kept doing like videos and like trying to break into film. And I think the moment we realized it could actually be like a job was we were watching behind the scenes DVD from the box collection of Indiana Jones, which it's a masterpiece. If you've never seen that behind the

Yeah, that is so influential. we saw, it was specifically the scene where Indiana Jones is hanging on the side of the tank. In the Last Crusade. In the Last Crusade, and it's pushing against the wall. And in the behind the scenes footage, you see people with like shovels just put dirt down to make the illusion of it grinding against the wall. And it was like, a job. Like, you can do that for a living. And we were like, yeah.

way to get to it. But we grew up in North Carolina. There was no film industry exposure. Wait a minute. Did you really? I'm from North Carolina. Where at? Kinston. OK, we were in we were in Raleigh. So I'm like basically an hour and a half east of Raleigh. So I get near right right beside Greenville. OK, this is crazy. We were in Rocky Mount. shit. My dad always goes to Rocky Mount. my God. This is too much. That's why. OK.

I don't know you, but how did you get into film living out there? I'm like really curious. I mean, look, it was the same kind of thing of like very similar as far as being well as being I was bored and I remember like making stop motion animation with like the Spider-Man figure with my parents crappy JVC camcorder. They never want me never wanted me to use but they never used it. And then just like, you know, we would would always make like birthday tribute videos to our with our with our friends. Like if Wilson McBride's birthday was coming up, we would like

me and all the other friends would spend a week just filming these like skits that were joking on Wilson. I would play Wilson or whatever. You know, he drank too much. He worked out a lot. So I'm drinking with one hand and pulling a barbell belt with the other. And we made these like fun videos and then we would show them at the party, at the birthday party, you know, on TV and everybody would lose their mind. Anyways, it was like stuff like that where it was just for fun. And my mom then was like, you should go to film school. Like her country self was like, you should go to film school.

Like really? So I went to orientation at School of the Arts in Winston-Salem and I just, it was very cool, but I just didn't have my grades together. So I didn't end up going there, but I ended up still kind of reading, filming, always making stuff until finally I said, let me go to Wilmington and get in the film industry there. And I was like 21, 22, 21. I just got, became a grip on film sets and made films with friends that I met there for like five years.

And just got film education while I'm set, you working on Eastbound and Down and Wintry Hill and all those independent movies that came through. And then just followed the tax incentive around and went to New Orleans for two years, went to New York, you know, worked on big movies and got to LA in 2011 and just started directing music videos and doing, you know, continuing to make stuff all the time until basically making stuff became the job, you know, the income. So.

That's kind of the short, that's the short version, but fucking North Carolina in the house and not just North Carolina, Eastern North Carolina, Eastern North Carolina city. You've never heard of look. So Rocky Mount's only like 50 minutes North of Kinston, maybe something like that. You know where Greenville is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I knew Greenville. have Clay Twill Clay and them helped me with a basketball documentary that took place in Kinston, North Carolina. Okay. So Clay knows about some kissing. Was that a feature?

So it was gonna be a series and we had like, you know, all that we had so many yeses in Hollywood I've never had that many yeses in every fucking meeting we went to what happened was the good old boy head coach was like all we needed was just like a final like, you know thumbs up permission like we can film we can film the season, know, and his country ass said and I can call him a country ass because I'm a country ass motherfucker. He said, we you know, we don't want to risk it. He basically was trying to make his own YouTube channel. So

Clay and Shannon came off the board as did a lot of these, you know, the series and the feature, but I had enough to turn it into a short film, which I did. And then we went and put it on PBS and won a regional Emmy. So anyways, anyways, Small World, crazy. How did you guys get from, wait, so you grew up in Rocky Mount, you said, not Raleigh? We grew up in Rocky Mount, yeah, yeah, Rocky Mount. always kind of like wanted to get out to like, I mean, this is such a tropey way to say it, but like,

we watched Big Fat Liar and we're like, they make movies in Hollywood. We could, we could probably see a set and like, you know, whatever. It was just like, where the movies were happening. so when we finished high school, we were like, we're going out to California. And so came out, moved to like high desert cause it was cheap. And we were up in like Lancaster, Palmdale would commute down to work jobs and

A lot of the stuff was just like real low budget commercial, really low budget doc. and we with our own like short doc stuff eventually got connected with, a guy who's a director and editor and producer. name's Ben Hunter and he was working on a show, migrant kitchen for PBS about immigrants who moved to LA. yeah. One Davis, produced that.

PBS. Yeah. He put on my last film on PBS as well. Yeah. Yeah. Juan is a man. This is such a small world. This is never been, this is never been, this is the smallest world interview I've had for sure. what? Somehow we're just now. Yeah. It's so funny. And you had a film in Santa Barbara last year, right? Or two years ago? Yeah, two years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bellevue. So we basically premiered at Santa Barbara.

which was so great. And then we broadcasted with PBS SoCal and Juan was my guy, know, Juan and Dwayne Bright, I believe it was, over there that put it on. What's funny is while we were filming Bellevue before I even knew who Juan Devis was or anybody over there at PBS, I said to Vincent, the guy that was in my film, we're gonna put this on PBS and we're gonna target just like this region hard. and of course, barring any sort of like massive deal with Netflix or something.

but it's like, we're gonna go the PBS route. And it's funny because I just harassed PBS and Juan Devis until they, I found Juan on Facebook once I figured out who I needed to talk to. think Rachel and PBS North Carolina was like, you should talk to Juan Devis. And then I found him and basically just kind of like solicited him and told him what I was doing and then cut to like the LA area Emmys. And I'm sitting at a table beside him and we had just won the Emmy and we came back to set back down. And then Juan just like leaned over to me he was like,

Good job hitting me up. Something like that. He's like, I'm glad you hit me up. It's correct. Congratulations. I was trying to tell you, Juan. He is like the executive. He loves creative, supports creatives. Every year that I've been at the Los Angeles area, the result of that attitude towards creatives is he's sitting at a table like 30 Emmys because he's just like, yeah. like, yeah, Juan is amazing force for good in the world.

So who do we not know? That's the real question here, I guess. Yeah, that's but like documentary, I think like just our foot in the door. Like I kind of initially. Yeah. Like where we thought we would end up necessarily because like we were inspired by scripted Indiana Jones type films as kids that we were just watching tons of and then just found such joy in the process of documentary that I can expect. Like it was just

sort of intoxicating to show up on set and like things would be happening and you're reacting to them and figuring out where you belong in this process and like where the audience needs to be taken. And it was just like it's such an intoxicating process that like I initially it was just a foot in the door and then it was like, no, this is what we want to be doing. We just want to be doing. I can so relate. It's like the authenticity that you get.

you know, you're filming real people and you can still do your cinematic thing, which you guys definitely did on this film, but it's like, you know, applying, you know, I guess more cinematic fiction techniques that, well, I say that based on what people are used to seeing in those films and then moving it over to real life to where like, you're not, God, it's so nice not to worry about, you know, locations and location fees and permits and all those things. I mean, I don't know what a film permit looks like, to be honest with you. I'm not paying $800 for one.

You know, nice try, Film LA. Not happening. You know what I mean? So, you know, we made fiction films. We made two fiction films, one in North Carolina, one feature, and then two here. I don't call them narrative features. I don't understand that difference between narrative feature and documentary. Well, documentaries are narrative features too, you know? So I refuse to say it that way. I call them fiction, fiction films, fiction features. I don't care. You know, I'm going to start, I'm going to start, you know, saying that more. The fiction path was

always disappointing at the end of the day, you know, as far as it was wonderful to make and wonderful to make films with friends and to try and to create from scratch and all that. But when it came to time for sales and distribution and audience reaction, it felt so let down. I felt so let down because it's this packaging game. It's this celebrities medium almost, you know, where it's like, you don't have a big star. So we can't really do much. We can't give you money upfront and we can't give you really a big distribution deal. I'm generally speaking here.

unless you make something phenomenal, which requires amazing acting and a great script, of course. The documentary, it's like all of a sudden you switch over to that. And my first one was, I went back to North Carolina to film this documentary. And that's what I got bit by the same bug where I became intoxicated with documentary because you don't have to worry about this perfect script right off the bat. You can go and film.

You can also you don't need actors. You're filming real people. Authenticity is already there. It's going to be powerful in that sense because that is the key ingredient for a viewer. Does this feel real or not? And then all of a sudden it's like, holy shit, I can actually make a good film. And I'm only spending a little bit compared to that fiction, you know, way. It's wonderful. Walk into like this space that someone lives in and they're like, sorry, let me clean up a little bit. And it's like, no, that is what we would pay someone tens of thousands.

dollars to dress on a narrative film. Leave everything where it is. Yeah. We just push record, baby. We don't have to overthink this at all. It's like, it's it's so good. And all the stuff that comes out of people's mouths too. Sometimes like, thank you so much. it's it's a documentary is like, I, I think some people see it as like a good starting point. And there's like a

There's a sensibility that comes from it. There's a nimbleness that comes from it for sure. There's like the multidisciplinary out of necessity because budget tier and all of that. like, man, it is just like, it's such a, you show up every day and there's just this alchemy that's unpredictable when you turn on a camera and you're face like that, that like you go into it with a vague expectation of what you may end up getting. More often than not, you are pleasantly surprised by what ends up unfolding on camera. And it's just,

It's addicting. It's like my favorite thing in the world. that you don't know, yeah, that you don't know what's going to happen is the best part about it. It's the same thing as watching like a football game or something. If you knew what was going to happen, would you watch it? You know what I mean? Like, it wouldn't be as exciting. Documentaries are very much like that. I mean, it's nice to still have some ideas in your pocket, but. totally, totally. Yeah. And I think it's like there are stories that

are so well suited for documentary, obviously, like there's there's so many great docs, like, at all these festivals that we've been playing out so far, it's just I bury myself in the doc category, it's watched as much as I can, it's I'm always so, like thrilled by like hearing about a story that way. But there are some stories that are just like, they are better suited in the fictional container, or they are like, the only possible in that, like, one of our big operations, like Alex Garland's work and like working this sort of like sci fi

base of like, everything is sort of real and normal, except for like one off putting thing that just like sets a completely different feeling. And like, for us, that was that was kind of the story. Like you're on the bottom of the ocean, looking at the seafloor. And then there's just one thing that's very out of place. And it's a barrel. That's like kind of your in road. Opening shot of your film, right? Essentially. Yeah, it's the opening shot of the film. Yeah, it's a horrifying visual.

Can I ask you which Alex Garland film really inspired you the most as far as maybe even that inspired with this? Any other films besides that that inspired this film particular out of plain sight? Yeah, I mean, I personally am a big fan of Annihilation. I struggle to draw parallels, like I do just really, I think that was something that we struggled with on this movie was like, it's a very haunting issue to think like, our ocean is

severely polluted. But the ocean is also such a beautiful place. And I think Alex Garland has this way in his films of displaying these psychologically distressing concepts, but still it is often beautiful. And I think that was something that we wanted to make sure was true in our film is the world is a beautiful place worth saving. The ocean is still a beautiful place with beautiful wildlife, and it deserves protecting. So yeah, I would say that that movie in particular, I think,

has been a North Star in terms of like tone and like his ability to create these like challenging moments in the container of things that are often very beautiful. Nice. That juxtaposition of like the beauty with like this nasty thing going on within that, you know, or that ambiguous, dangerous thing going on within the beauty is like very compelling. Yeah. And I think like the California coast, such an iconic

Like it's in so many movies since so many shows and people travel from around the world to come to the ocean here like along this coast big sir gorgeous place Insane and you can't it doesn't do it justice when you see something when you're here It just takes your breath away, especially the first time it's like what yeah and like I think that idea of like we do have something worth protecting like I've there have been so many times where like I think working on a project like this or

being involved in like sort of this environmental storytelling kind of space, it can get really depressing. And I think there's these moments where you experience something like, yeah, this is what we're fighting for. This is what we're, this is what's worth protecting. I think that's something that we really wanted to be in the film just as much as that sort of terrifying prospect of what that other thing could be. That's also sharing that space with us. Got you. mean, every time I've driven to, to and from Santa Barbara or up the coast for that matter.

and you get that stretch right when you're leaving Santa Barbara heading south. It's so beautiful and I always look out and see those oil rigs and I'm like, well I guess it's okay. I mean doesn't seem like that should be there. And now I'm gonna look at it differently because I'm gonna think about the barrels under the water now. Not blaming the oil rigs but still, it's like the same kind of, I put that in the same box of like, why are they out there? You know what I mean? Who chose that? Who chose to put X amount of oil rigs out there? There's probably like what, 15 of them? Maybe, 10 or 15?

And now with your doc and hearing about this, you know, the barrels of DDT, it's just like, what else do we not know? I think that's like the sort of crux of this film is like, I think we should be examining things that we are doing that we won't easily be able to take back just like these barrels and the waste that is already out there. Examining our relationship with things that we're doing now that could impact generations from now. Yeah.

And like there are things that are just overlooked, like we don't think about them in our daily life that we will be spending not even just from a health perspective, but a financial perspective. These problems are enormously expensive to attempt a remedy or even just to understand like the amount of money that it takes to study this issue before you can even get to the point of like, okay, so now what do we do about it? got really frustrated too with the previous generation for doing this to us, you know, it's like

thanks for hooking us up there, pals. Maybe they weren't thinking about it. Luckily it goes back to your title, Out of Plain Sight. But it's just like, man, what? Why would you just save? Why would you save this for your future generations to find? Or were they just not even thinking about it that way? Yeah, I I think it was out of sight, out of mind. And I think the thing that, as we were working on the film, gave us

hope the bright spot of this is that there are people now who are giving their lives to studying this issue, to trying to understand and potentially find a remediation for those things at some point in the future. They are making it their life's work to leave the world a better place for the generations that are coming after us. that's the thing that really kept us inspired as we were working on the film, is just the incredible scientists doing the work to try to

leave the world a little better and we got it. And what is a bigger deal than that? mean, you even if you were making Indiana Jones seven or whatever, like that would be funny. Great. But like, is that more important than even this documentary? I don't know. I don't think so. Right. It's crazy. The power of what we do documentaries made their way into the mainstream. I feel like what I I think Michael Moore, like I could be wrong here, but like I feel like my first memory of a documentary at the theater was a Michael Moore film. I forget which one probably inconvenient truth or something. We're like, documentary.

you know, going back into the past and seeing all these amazing films, you know, like there are some, some very well shot and well made films that just probably were just delegated to, or relegated. They were just pushed onto them into more of like an academic space or more of a kind of like you had to dig to find it type place. Maybe that's the difference. The cameras now, the camera sensitivities, the, know, all this, like what you guys even did, this is one of the prettiest docs I can remember seeing. And I'm not trying to butter you up. I'm just saying it's like a beautiful.

beautifully shot film. So where you can bring even, even, even more so now the cinematic-ness, you know, over to the doc form. And then all of sudden it's like, well, what, is the difference between this and a fiction piece really when it comes down to the viewer? And then I'm interviewing a lot of people. I would say a third of the people that I've interviewed in the past 10 interviews, it's been this like, they've made films where there's this total blend of fiction and nonfiction, which is getting exciting. So I'm fucking pumped about the future of one.

person called it auto fiction, then you can call it docu fiction, or you can call it doc hybrid. But it's like, there is like, you know, some, some amazing films coming, I think with the ends and out there as far as the blend of it all, you know, where maybe you're not even capturing real life, you're kind of setting the stage. And this is not to say this is a larger conversation, of course, and doc ethics and all this, but there's these, these forms that are crashing into each other, I guess, which is very exciting to see, you know, they're setting stages.

to then create it like it is a doc. Is it, is it not? I don't know, you decide. Like there's just so many, like the form is wildly compelling. no, yeah, that's something we've been really excited to see like at these festivals that we've played out so far is just like, I'm so inspired by the documentary community and so thankful to like the programming teams who are putting together such like inspiring and innovative programming at these festivals. And I think like it's oftentimes hard to sit in your silo and work on a piece for like,

years and years of your life and then finally put it out into the world and getting to be here with these communities of other filmmakers and passionate people in the community has been really cool and we've been fully enjoying our festival experience so far and I think it leaves me yearning for, I wish that we could do this all the time. I wish that there was this in-person robust community of doc filmmakers and I think, don't know, my wheels are turning in terms of like...

Yeah, like so many people are doing such great work now. Like how do we keep sharing this work with not only the world, but each other? It's been really cool. And in LA, we are incredibly lucky to be having Slamdance come to Los Angeles this year. It's the first year, Yeah, first year in LA and the program, like, it just looks so good. So is Slamdance, when does that happen? When is Slamdance?

That's going to be starting opening night is February 20th. And then I think it runs through the 26th. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good little pocket for them. I feel like because you have some that's already in the rear view mirror, Santa Barbara and South by is coming. Right. That's a nice pocket. Yep. It's a really good pocket. And I think it's like there's just a need for this type of like film community. So many people have just like I've conversations with friends like every week who are impacted by it.

just the marketplace and the way things are in the film landscape right now. It's devastating, but like it's a little less devastating when we know that we're in it together and like we're able to act with each other and remember like why we do this as well. And this is like the podcast. Exactly. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, so important. So I'm, I'm super grateful for like these festivals that are just doing so much to like bring people together. for people like you who are like,

bringing filmmakers together on podcasts like this to like tell the stories about the process. We got so much to talk about too. I feel like we're like so relegated to Q and A's and like that's maybe a few interviews and then all of a sudden you're done and it's like, wait a minute. That's how I felt where it's like, I got more to say, you know? And it's just like community. Community is very, very, very important. And like, so I fought this idea for like four years, three or four years. Finally, I was like, okay.

I need to do this for me. Like I need to quit worrying about does the world need another podcast, you know? And it's been fucking fantastic. And I always share the story. We were in the Berlin out. I was there with a supporting a friend and we were filming this fake documentary about his, this actor friend who basically in real life was in a film in Berlin. And then we were filming this fake documentary on the side where he plays the world's most pretentious filmmaker, German filmmaker. So I'm filming him using Berlin as a backdrop, Cullen Moss.

We ended up going, he ended up getting invited to the Sunday filmmaker brunch and he took me along with him. And it was all the German filmmakers that were in Berlin now. And so anyways, it was a Sunday, was literally church hours and it was like the church of cinema. And it was just all these European filmmakers and German filmmakers eating soup and drinking fancy lattes and smoking cigarettes out the window and just talking like ferociously about cinema and all this. And I'm like, I've never experienced this before.

And this is probably what the new wave was like. And you know what I mean? And the near realism scene and all these passionate, like artsy fartsy cinema filmmakers. anyways, then COVID hit. And so of course the sense of community really compounded when we got that taken away from us. So once the dust kind of settled, I just started, just crave that getting back to even that just like two hours of that brunch or three hours at that brunch where I'm like, LA feels very.

fragmented and separated. can feel that way. Yeah. And it was just like, that's kind of where it came from as far as like, need, I don't want, I need that again. You know, as far as like conversations with other filmmakers, because like sharing information and sharing war stories or even just like connecting and like, you know, whatever, or just lifting each other up. Like it's such a great thing. So yeah, it's been, it's been, it's been a good move. Being like in those kinds of conversations too, like after you

I'm sure you had this experience too of like you play a film and like you talk to people who just get it. Like they, they watched it in a community set, like a communal setting. They saw the film and get it. And like, that is one of the most rewarding experiences, like to just get to talk to people who care about film and like understand and are giving their time to it. Like, think being like playing documentaries in the theater is like one of the most fun.

things that I've gotten to do and gotten to take part in, like going and seeing documentaries in theaters. It's sort of a rare experience and I don't think it should be. It's really rewarding to go see a film and hear people talk about it and go talk about it over dinner, drinks or whatever after. That kind of thing, I think, is so healing. And it goes back to just, again, the landscape we're in as viewers. How many movies

that we give a chance now to that we don't talk about afterwards because we don't care. You know, it's like content, content, content, you know, and it's just so not to bitch and moan too much, but still it's like, no, like let's, let's do something about that. Let's like talk about it and like try to figure out something. But you know what? Shout out to like the film festival world, the film festival circuit. Like it's a beautiful ecosystem. And I was going to ask you real quick to doc NYC. That was where you were premiered this film, right? What was that like?

Yeah, man, it was it was awesome. I think we were there for or I guess I was there for 10 days. You were there for seven. Yeah. And I think like we watched probably 30 films in the time we were there. It was like back to back. There was always something incredible playing and just like, yeah, it's it's a documentary is basically a showcase of the year's best. There's a mix of premieres, but then there's a lot of stuff that's sort of ending its year run there. And it's just

such a great festival. had such a great time. Jay, their artistic director is so, so kind and was so generous to us about our film. And that was like really, that was our first time ever playing it in public and we didn't know what the response would be. is first festival ever. Like yeah, first festival ever. Yeah. Whoa. Doc NYC was wow. It's big. Just getting to premiere a film about something happening in Los Angeles outside of LA and seeing people care about it.

And the way that they did was it was humbling. It was a really humbling experience. And that's amazing. Yeah. Just a pair of great shows out there and watched a ton of movies and ate a lot of bagels and pizza. And it was great. Also New York City.

So Santa Barbara, already had two screenings or three? You got two and you have two more. You got added a screening, right? You got a screening added for Saturday? We've had three. We've got one more on Saturday. Really excited about that. It's been such a great experience out here. But totally every audience has been different, which has been really fun. like, I think ultimately like this is a new happening.

in California's backyard, right? And so I think it's been really cool to finally be showing it to a California audience and seeing people connect with it. Which is really cool. So, Barbara is my favorite. As far as just, it's such a wonderful, even when I've been doing this podcast, I'm coming up on almost a year from doing this, you know, like a whole film festival year.

It's so cool to see all the stars come out and be all cozy and warm with the audiences there. You got the Chalamets. But also, that festival also so honors unheard, unseen, important films. Internationally, documentary, whatever. it's such a classy film festival. And the town itself, it's just a perfect size and place and art community to host it. Yeah, so I can't.

I cannot say enough. They ain't sponsoring this podcast, but you know, I'm just saying love you, Smith. But they could. Yeah, yeah. Well, then the other ones would be jealous though. Let me ask you, how did you get, like Santa Barbara, did you hear from like Claudia Puig or did you just get a film freeway thing saying you got in or how does that, how did that look for you when you got accepted or you got invited to premiere, to screen? Rosanna got an email that was like, Hey,

checking on like your guys' status, like a veil check. we're like, seems, that seems good. And then I think we ended up getting a phone call from Ernie, one of the programmers, who's just a gem. Like he has been running from screening to screening, doing Q and A's. Phenomenal moderator. A great moderator. Yeah. And he did a panel this morning on cinematography that Austin was on. And yeah, he's just,

such a gem, but he was like, yeah, this film was like a no brainer for us. I'm like, that's crazy because it's heavy. I'm glad you like it really is such a, yeah, it is. mean, not even just the location of it all. It does seem very perfect for Santa Barbara and Ernie Ernie might've been the guy that that talked because Claudia Puig, I think she's the head programmer. She's LA film critics association. She's, she's the one that hit us up, hit me up initially and said,

the same thing. What is your premiere status? We'd to scream Bellevue, da da da. And I'm like, you know, I was like, wait, what? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know? And then, but then like, remember, I remember after the first screening that we had, I don't know if it was Ernie. I don't remember the guy's name, but he was one of the programmers. And he said pretty much the same thing, right? This was a perfect, basically my takeaway was that he was the one that kind of pushed it, passed it along and pushed it to Claudia in the upper, the upper tier of it. And I'm not sure if it was Ernie, but

Shout out to whoever that was. Cause you need these programmers to like, you need champions, man. You need people to champion your movie. Yeah. Ernie, Claudia, really the whole team out here has just been so, so like they're, they're volunteers. Like when we're waiting out, like waiting to get into the theater, we're like, Hey, like how long you been working here? They're like 30 years. And I'm like, Oh my God. They're so sweet and they love it. They're so happy. I feel like it's sometimes Santa Barbara seems like the biggest LA film.

even though it's not in LA. And now I'm thinking, Slamdance moving to LA, hmm. Brilliant for them, brilliant. Yeah. It's really cool. So we got booked for opening night where the opening night film in the Egyptian, before the officially went out, we had sold out. And it was just so exciting to see the LA film community, I think, really has been wanting this. And for Slamdance to have taken the gamble on like,

Yeah, we're going to do it. We're going to see. It's like I think when we were in New York, we were chatting with people and we're like, yeah, like we're excited to play the film in L.A. And they're like, good luck getting people to come out like no one wants to go to the movies. And I'm like, yeah, that's like I'm just so stoked that like we have a festival there now to really be Egyptian to. Are you kidding me? The films that have written there? mean, congratulations. That's so sick. I saw Chinatown there a few months ago.

a retrospective of Chinatown. was really special. Actually, I filmed, I've been following around these, my latest doc, and I'm very happy today because I got my cutback from my latest doc and it's good. I'm like, shit, I got a movie. But I've been following around these two private investigators for three and a half years. And I filmed them watching Chinatown because basically the, my main PI was mentored by the PI who Jack Nicholson based Jake Giddies off of. So there's like a relevance to it.

That's the only time I'd been in the Egyptian too. So, uh, but what a fucking space when is you slamdance was last week in Feb? Uh, yeah, it starts on the 20th. Yeah. 20th. Yeah. Gotcha. I'm going to try to come to y'all screening. Yeah. No, if you can make it out awesome, you know, like slamdance as a whole, like they are programming just really, really incredible, bold stories. And I think it's going to be a really great week for like

DLA film community to like really come together and just like remember the power of this medium that we all care about so much. It's very exciting times. think we're all going to we're turning a corner as filmmakers. There's like some good shit coming. There's good stuff here, but there's also I think there's good stuff coming and also slam dance really quick. mean, Christopher Nolan, they gave the first, you his first kind of like platform for Sean Baker. Like, I mean, slam dance has been.

such an important space, you know, and I love how it's like the Pepsi to Sundance's Coke in a way, you know, and sometimes even more important. You know what I mean? And they're really like, I think this is a cool moment for them to like, this coming to Los Angeles moment is really special because it is a bigger festival than I think they've been able to do before. And it's like very special to see things that they're elevating. And they have such a focus on like diversity.

and they have such a focus on inclusion. We got the note from them, like, hey, we need to burn in the subtitles so that it's accessible. I'm like, that is such a cool thing for a festival to require. At first we were like, oh no, that's a legitimate problem that we have to burn another DCP. And then we're like, that's really cool that we have to do that. Yeah, that's sick. OK, I have one more question for you. What would you tell your younger filmmaking self if you could go back and give yourself some advice? Or not even advice, just even, I don't know, anything. I think I would.

Tell them to watch more movies.