E44 • Make It, Move on, Make Another • GABY DELLAL, dir. of ‘Park Avenue’ at the Santa Barbara Film Festival

Gaby Dellal discusses the journey of creating her latest film “Park Avenue”, which just premiered at the Santa Barbara International Film Festival. Her past inspirations include “Midnight Cowboy” and “Midnight Express”.

She reflects on her transition from acting to directing, the themes of motherhood in her work, and the impact of industry politics on her projects. Gaby also speaks on the intricacies of independent filmmaking, including her experiences working with the now infamous Harvey Weinstein.

The discussion also highlights the importance of collaboration to create emotional depth in storytelling, patience and resilience when facing gaps between projects, and today’s challenges in navigating film festivals.

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Chapters

• 0:01 Past Present Feature, Hosted by Marcus Mizelle
• 0:20 Gaby Dellal, director of "Park Avenue" at SBIFF

Transcript

Marcus Mizelle (00:21)
Gaby Dellal discusses the journey of creating her latest film, Park Avenue, which just premiered at the Santa Barbara International Film Her past inspirations include Midnight Cowboy and Midnight Express.

She reflects on her transition from acting to directing, the themes of motherhood in her work, and the impact of industry politics on her projects.

Gabby also speaks on the intricacies of independent filmmaking, including her experiences working with the now infamous Harvey Weinstein.

The discussion also highlights the importance of collaboration to create emotional depth and storytelling, patience and resilience when facing gaps between projects, and today's challenges in navigating film festivals.

Marcus Mizelle (01:00)
I watched your movie. Thank you for sharing. It's so good. Oh good. Did you love it? I really appreciated it. The writing was really tight and the directing was tight. The acting was tight. cinema, everything was just really nicely done. didn't. Oh, I say please. Right? That's what you want. I mean, that's what I want when someone is watching a film. just want, it just moved. It moved. It a nice balance between staying in it and not feeling rushed, like you didn't want to rush through it, but you also let it, it felt like it had some breath to it. So.

Thank you. And did you premiere, did you world premiere at Santa Barbara with this one? We did, we did. So, and it went down really, really well. I think that the film is about a mother and daughter and the mothers of a certain age. And I think that the audience was just right for it. So for me, it was very exciting because all the jokes landed beautifully. And I'd never heard it in a place where people appreciate the humor and the.

the cuttingness of Fiona Shaw who plays the mother who's called Kit. She's so good and it's so severe what she does. And what I've written is so severe that you have to have the dexterity and the charm to be able to deliver it without alienating your audience. And what it showed me in Santa Barbara is that it did not alienate, they just appreciated her, which was a...

Beautiful thing to watch. They're such great a great audience. It's such a perfect place for a festival. I premiered my last film at Santa Barbara and yes, it's just such a wonderful memory and experience. So Santa Barbara will premiere. You have Dublin coming up. What else do you have festival wise since we're already talking about it? so I don't know at the moment. I want to go to Venice and not Venice. I want to go to Vienna, but I've met because I've never been to Vienna.

I know we're waiting to hear from a women's festival in Paris, which I would be interested to do. So yeah, we've only just started this long process. Got you. so Santa Barbara World Premiere, how did that come about as far as, it's such an interesting landscape with festivals when I look at it from a calendar standpoint. Why the world premiere at Santa Barbara? How did that kind of shake out? Well, I think I wanted ultimately to go to the New York Film Festival. For some reason they turned me down.

which I thought was bit silly since it's on Park Avenue. So then my next step was to go to Santa Barbara. And as you say, I never really know what the LA Film Festival is. So I suppose everybody told me this was a great festival, so that's what we chose. Is Santa Barbara Film Festival being kind of the LA Film Festival? Do you think the reason for that is because LA is simply just not prioritizing kind of the

or the appreciation of film. And I know that that's not completely true, but as far as film festivals are concerned, it's like LA is business first, I guess. That's my guess as to why, you know. All us independent filmmakers need business as well. So, you know, we need it to be bought and the landscape is so bleak at the moment. So, you know, that's not, you know, I'm very keen to get.

distribution at the moment we've got a sales company and that's great but it's hard it's really hard out there because as we know no one goes to the cinema anymore and i came on the plane and i've realized now that they're soon going to take the screens out of planes because they've now put a little thing so your tray table comes down but they put a little ledge just for your mobile phone

And what they do is you can go on, yeah, so it's a real ball. It's a terrible thing. It's all about saving money, or money, money, money, money, everything. I'm not shocked though. Next thing you know, we're gonna be sitting on bicycle seats on the plane. You're right. I mean, like we do need show and business. Yeah. I mean, there's no, it's a balance like everything else, you know? Like you need that. Cause Hollywood is the linchpin as far as like it's where it all goes out of. It's the output.

Yeah, that point, you know, it's like everything everybody sees comes from here, you know, no matter where it's filmed or whatever. I guess for the most part, you would say mass distributed your sales agent. Who's your sales agent? Double screen. OK. How do you decide on and I like talking about this little practical stuff, too. I love I love the challenge of like what's after a movie. Well, I love a challenge. I don't know why something wrong with me, but I just get activated when I'm like, you tell me no, or this is hard. You know.

But as far as sales, that's a total challenge every time. It's like, who's the audience for this? Who's the market? Who's the sales agent that's gonna see it for what it is and how to properly traverse the sales space? So anyways, how do know what sales team to go with? Well, I went with the one who was most excited by the movie and I feel they're very into the movie and they really get it. And so for me, that's the most important thing. Whether they're brilliant or not, I don't know yet.

Sure, sure, Yeah, totally. Okay, so your movie itself. Going back, you as a filmmaker. So when did you first either realize that you wanted to be a filmmaker or were you making films before you even made that kind of out loud decision? No, no, I was always an actor until I was about 27 and then I started having kids and I was primarily a theater actress. Then I realized that...

As a theater actor, I used to do something called rep, which would be going around the country. And when I started having kids, I couldn't leave my kids. And so I started writing, trying to write for theater actually. And then I started a company where we did readings. So it was really easy for me to do. Then I decided to write a short film, Out the Blue, and I wanted to find a director to make it. And then my

partner said, you're the one that has to make it. No one will understand your sensibility. I said, no, can't do that. Anyway, I decided to do it. And then this particular short film did really well. It was a short film and it was called Toy Boys. And it was 25 minutes long and it did really well. And it won a load of awards in England. And so from there, I got another short film.

which was, well, it was a long film and it was called Tube Tales and it was made up of lots of short films all set on the subway. So then I got Rachel, I, the theater company I had been working in, she had just got the mummy and so I stepped into her shoes. So then I kind of got to know her. So then when I did the second Rosebud, I got Rachel in it. So then I was kind of on a thing and then.

I did a film called Football and that got into Sundance and then, so that was great at Sundance. I got lots of attention there. And then I got a movie called Two Wheels Only. I was casting, I was trying to cast, it was about kids on motorbikes and I really wanted this girl and it was all finance out of Italy and I went, biked this young girl's corner and they said, she's not good enough, she's not beautiful enough and she was called Keira Knightley. And I said,

I fought for her and they wouldn't let me use her. So then I met with Sienna who'd never done anything and they said, okay to Sienna. So then I had about 35 seconds of fame and I had CAA and everyone go mad. And then it lasted 38 seconds. then, yeah. And so then I started and I never acted again. wow. You never acted again? No. Wow.

38 seconds, that's pretty good. Well, how long's your, your 10? Okay, so 38 is pretty good. There was one project where I equate it was one project that everybody said yes to this, documentary about my hometown basketball story. Anyways, we had a green light all the way through and all I had to do was confirm with the good old boy head coach back in North Carolina to say, we'll allow film filming through the season. And he said, And then I went.

And I've turned it into a short film and we did our thing anyways, we finished it. But yeah, it was very exciting. Like, why is everybody saying yes, what's the catch here? The hell, you know, and then you realize like my view of Hollywood kind of changed at that point too, where it's like, they want to just use you. It's a low hanging fruit. I mean, if you want to, if you have something to provide of use to them, then they'll then they'll play ball. And if you don't market marketable wise, timing wise, and then they won't. It's not really personal at all, I guess, which helped me get get over all that stuff. So so you're 38.

Your post 38 seconds, what did that look like? How did you move on once CAA stopped harassing you? So then it was like every independent filmmaker, it became harder and harder. And I'd made a film called Angels Crest, which was great with Elizabeth McGovern. And that was good. It got a lot of attention. went to Tribeca, blah, blah. Magnolia bought it. But you know, I find that every filmmaker, especially women, gets four or five

years between projects. wow. So you finish a movie and you go, I've learned that I'm going to apply it to the next movie. And then you've forgotten because it's taken so many years to get the next project off the ground. So for me, it's taken a long time to get projects off the ground. But I've done TV. I've just finished an episode of you, which is great. The Netflix show. Yeah. And then I also do a lot of theater. I direct a lot of theater. Amazing.

I have a, I'm going to do my first play soon. think direct, my first play. Yeah, it's really fun. I have this project that is based on the basketball doc that I told you, but it takes place entirely in a double wide trailer in North Carolina, my hometown. And it's about this basketball prodigy, this, you know, big recruit who is having this party. It's all in real time. He's having this announcement party where he's going to go play basketball. And it's all about the ownership.

mentality of like an athlete, right? Everybody but the athlete thinks that they know best for this guy. And so anyways, it's like, I want to make a film, but I was thinking of also make doing a kind of a little modest, like, I don't know, 99 seat play first, just to like, workshop it. Any advice for me, for my first play? It's very different to directing a film. And it's a very ensemble thing. It's about the acting and

Obviously it's about the production design, et cetera, but it's a very like close, you have a lot of time in rehearsal and then you let go when the production goes up. So it's a different thing and it's an actor's medium. Sure, sure. And that's why I kind of want to do it because it seems different. And I was a huge fan always of Mike Nichols. I know he had a play background first, he was directing plays, he was in the verse, right, and then directing them. And then his films were always better for it, I think.

Wasn't Sydney Luma also from the play? From the theater background? You know what I mean? all those guys, like those films, their films were so tight. And of course it's like the acting is always fantastic for that. anyways, thank you for giving me a background of your stuff. You had a few more films since. Yes, I did. I did a film called Three Generations, which made a big storm at Cannes and Harvey Weinstein wore a dress to try and convince.

us. So was before the trans explosion, but Harvey was clever because he knew that what I had made, no one had made anything particular or commercial about a mother having a trans. So it's basically about three generations of women, Susan Sarandon, Naomi Watts and Elle Fanning, and Elle Fanning wants to transition to a boy. So we made it, we showed it at Cannes, Harvey went bananas and

there was a bidding war and Harvey bid the most and he knew, like he always knew what was gonna work, but he didn't really have the money that he offered, so there was a sort of delay because he was just greedy. He was just bleak as street, he was trying to knock everyone out of court because he was right. And then he was conscious, because I had written it from the mother's point of view, because I didn't know very much from the child's point of view.

It was so not out in the open yet. Transparent wasn't out yet. The conversations weren't being had. Yeah. No. so then, so then Harvey made me do a re-edit to up the child's point of view. And he was right. So was able to do that and shift the balance, which was really great. Wow. So he was good at giving notes and tweaking. He was brilliant at giving notes. And then,

He was a nightmare, though, but he was brilliant. And anyway, so then when we released it, the trans world was getting a hold, and they went mad that I didn't cast a trans actor. And so, poor Elle Fanning was left feeling to this day where she won't mention it. But my argument, and I had so many arguments online, was it's a child who hasn't transitioned yet.

It's so she's thrown a girl and isn't presenting yet. She's presenting as a boy, but she hasn't started hormones. The whole thing was about the permission to start hormones. So I didn't think there was anything wrong. Plus at the time, the attention on trans actors was very small. Harvey was, we were on the road to a whole Oscar campaign and Al should have really done it, but then the politics got in the way. wow.

Wow. Yeah, so whenever you get, you hit the zeitgeist without knowing you're there before anyone else. Love these stories. These are so important because, yeah, and it's like such, it's so separate of the film itself. It's like the campaign of the film. Even this year's campaign where it's like, I've been rooting for Enora since I saw it. I just love Sean Baker and Enora. Yeah, I love Sean Baker, yeah. Then it's like, kind of, know, one can and then.

whatever, but then you had the Brutalist kinda coming up and Amelia Perez and all of sudden, Inora kinda got this shadow. Yeah, but I Inora's coming back. No, no, no, that's my point. Now it's back because they just won Critics Choice, they just won DGA, he just won DGA. Did they win PGA? I think they won all the guilds. I don't know. But he's lovely filmmaker, isn't he? He just knows how to entertain. You know what, I think he just also, like this podcast, and I've hit him up a few, I'm trying to get him on this podcast and he's like,

He's so kind and sweet, you know, he was like, I just have so much going on. But I just love how sweet he is and how he's a good human, but also he knows his cinema. Like he watches movies. He knows some obscure stuff. know what I mean? Enora, I'm hoping, takes it all. That's my favorite movie. Yeah. But it's like- Mine was Nickel Boys. I didn't see it yet. I didn't see it yet. you better see it. Okay, okay. I watched Conclave last night, which I really enjoyed. I'm gonna ask I loved Conclave. So good.

So tight and solid, like, loved it. Loved the cinematography also. But I bring it up because it's just so interesting, the gauntlet of like a campaigning for a film all the way to Oscar, all the way from like the festival debut to the, from what I can, I don't have any experience, but I just, as a film lover and onlooker, it's such an interesting space to look at from afar. And could you imagine the relief the day after you win the Oscar? Like, it's over. Yeah, it must be, yeah.

Must be really hard. We'll know soon. know, we'll know. I mean, it's also like the film gods have a hand in all this too, wouldn't you say? Yes, I think they do. They're never on my side, but I think the film gods do. But also, what lovely experiences you seem to have had too, as far as even though, course, Harvey's polarizing and we don't have to get into all the recent stuff. I mean, like he was so respected, like he was good at what he did.

you know, separating the art from the artist for a minute. You know, like I'm a big Polanski guy, you know, but it's like, it's awkward combo, you know, if you get into it. But Park Avenue is a woman who returns to her New York City apartment after fleeing her controlling husband. She rediscovers her life and must face buried truths with her mother. I was very surprised when this film opened because, of course, I'm expecting Park Avenue, New York City. And you're in the wilderness, you're in the country, you're in the

I mean, shot it in Colorado. Okay. I wanted it to be, I wrote it as Saskatchewan. So the idea is that the daughter rejects her childhood home, which is Park Avenue, and goes and lives in Saskatchewan and is a cowgirl, a cowboy. And I always dreamed of making a film about Park Avenue, but the title's being on this beautiful.

you know, wild Western expanse. I love that. So I got that. And so that was a thrill. And then I shot a lot more there. But what we discovered through the edit is that you just wanted to get to the crux of the story, which was a mother and daughter spending time together unannounced. So they'd been estranged. The daughter's 40 something, the mother 60 something, the mother's dying of cancer and wants to do it quietly and on her own. And the daughter turns up unannounced.

and they end up spending about six to eight weeks together and they discover secrets and lies which have formed the daughter. And so in order for her to be released and broken free from the ties that bound her, which is endless lies that she was told as a child, she needs to confront and get the truth. And amazingly, she does without knowing that it's actually the last few weeks of her mother's life.

At of the film, she arrives and has to ask her mother for a hug, and at the end of the film, she holds her mother in a fetal position in a hospital in New York City where the mother is dying of cancer, which is a complete shock to the daughter. I'm so glad you said all that, because I wasn't sure what spoiler situation or whatever. Yeah, it had such a balance to it. I told you, like it had such a flow and a balance to the script, to the story. And I see here you had a little bit of a quote here. I seem to make films about mothers and kids.

which you've already established. Why is that? Why do you think? Where does that come from? Well, you know, the best creations of my life are my children. And I guess they, the notion of being a mother inspires me. And although I only have male children, this one's about mother and daughter because I am the daughter of the mother and we all have mothers. So I think it's always about working something out in one's own life. And it's our different artistic expressions of the experiences we grow up with.

So I don't think that I'm making a very similar film, but apparently I am. My children seem to say, mom, it's just the same film as last one. But you have different angles, different flavors of the same kind of themes and topics, right? Which is like, you really feel like you're contributing something too. Like you do have something to say, which is a good thing. Yeah, but a lot of writer directors actually do make the same film. So one person who makes the same film is Andrea Arnold, who's one of my heroes. And they never bore.

but they're always the same landscape and they're always the same people. What's your favorite Andrea Arnold? Well, I'm very in love with her one bird at the moment. I mean, bird, it's fantastic. Have you seen it? No, I've been sleeping on Andrea Arnold. Fish Tank was the first one that I saw. like, what is this? This is so special and weird and great and something. Yeah. And then what? The other one? Red Road, Weathering Heights, Cow.

But know, Fish Tank was her best film, I think. And Bird, you just go, oh, it's the same. It's the same estate, or as we say in America projects, it's the same kids. They're to dance. They're going to be naked. They're going to be in underwear. They're going to be screaming at each other and you make a good cheeseburger, and I'm not going call this a cheeseburger, but if you make a good branzino, which is what I'm good at making, like the only best dish. she does is

every film is so moving. And even though you know where it's heading, I watch them and I weep. And it's so heartfelt. So, and I love her because she's the opposite to me. So she makes films completely different from me so I can admire her. What do you mean opposite of you? How so? Just her visuals, everything is different. Her, you know, her landscape, it's all very different. But I totally appreciate her and I think she's a brilliant filmmaker.

And so yeah, Bird's the one that just came out, right? Was it Khan or was it Taran? Where was it? It I think it was Khan. It said it Khan. Khan, Khan, yeah. I never know how to pronounce Khan, Khan. I will never pick one. I'll go back and forth, always. Bird is about Bailey, 12 years old, lives with her single father, Bug, and her brother Hunter in a squat in Northern Kent. Bug doesn't have much time to devote it to his children and Bailey, who is approaching puberty, seeks attention and adventure elsewhere. And you saw it in New York Film Festival? Mm-hmm. Okay, got you.

So it's coming, it's coming, yeah. And then what would you like your, you think Fish Tank is probably her best film. What's your most favorite Andre Arnold film besides Bird? Fish Tank. Okay, there you go. Moving right along. Fish Tank was also the first time I think I saw Fassbender, Michael Fassbender. Were there any films growing up that really shaped you? Yeah, Midnight Express. Or the Hutsucker Proxy. wow, Hutsucker Proxy, that was filmed in my home.

Well, my almost hometown of Wilmington, North Carolina. was it? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I used to work for the key grip of that film. So he was telling me stories about the talents and all this. I never saw this. No, because you're too young. But it was such a brilliant seminal film. You should watch it. OK, I will. Nice. What is it about the film that got you going? I think it was the two characters. think it was a Midnight Cowboy as well. I think it was.

It was a situation. was two guys getting thrown into prison for smuggling hash. Okay. In Turkey. And it was fantastic and gripping. Midnight Cowboy I rewatched recently. What a... And it worked still. Yes. What a stunningly made film. Just the use of camera and frame and everything. It's such a beautiful... And possibly Butch Cassidy was seminal to me and probably why I wanted to make a film with a cowboy in it. Okay.

Okay. And then he just thought of that. Would you say butch casting this? Okay. Do you like Westerns or like kind of anti-Western? It's almost like you're talking about anti-Westerns here in a way. This is just how I interpret it. Where it's like what happens after the frontier is discovered, right? Yeah. I just finished a documentary that I put an anti-Western structure onto about the indigenous Tuscarora native people of North Carolina. And I was like, what if it's not about cowboys and Indians, but Indians and cowboys? You know what I mean? Where it's like, what, this is after the frontier is discovered.

And you start thinking about these films like I think Outlaw Josie Wells would be the end though. McCabe and Mrs. Miller, like that's one. Midnight Cowboy is probably the perfect example as far as you know, it's like the cowboy in the city. mean, come on. Anyways, yeah, that's what I think of. It's like this anti- Bush, Cassidy and Sundance kid. They're getting chased by these like corporate hired hands, right? The whole time. Anti-Western. And they're trying to like navigate the new world.

Can you talk about writing and like kind of production of this, of a park Avenue? Like, first of all, like you co-wrote it, I believe. Seven years in the making. Basically it was based on a woman I met in Central Park, walking my dog. And I just met her and she was amazing. And she was called Kit, which is the name. And she said, don't ever have chemotherapy. And she was just screaming it out, out to no one.

feeling very sick, leaning up against a tree. And so I said, can I help you, madam? And I sat down and we became friends. And then we would walk our dogs and I discovered that she was dying. And we spent two years walking together and then she eventually died. And I had a secret fantasy that she lived on Park Avenue and then she would end up giving me her apartment. It was just a fantasy. And then I started writing every time I finished my walk.

because I thought, oh, this is inspiring me and this is a story I think I want to tell. And I felt like her daughter. And so I started writing about a daughter having a moment with her mother. And it was based on her, based on my mother, based on my co-writer's mother. Basically, I wrote it for a long time on my own. It was very solid. And then I needed someone to come in and I needed

an American voice and I needed to start what happens with me often is I write until I can't write anymore and then I need somebody to bounce off. And so, yeah, that's what I did. And so I had a great co-writer called Tina Alexis Allen and we spent several years, you know, in different towns and different countries, but swapping ideas and swapping scenes and then rewriting each other's scenes. And anyway, so we came up with this.

And that's kind of my process. then we kind of, I then I found a producer and then I got it on. So that's it's Genesis. Question. How did you decide on this particular screenwriter? I have been working with her on something else, Tina. And so it just seemed like a nice match. We liked each other. Yeah. It's a no brainer. Yeah. Gotcha.

And then so production, any notable kind of challenges or highlights? mean, anything that's- not really. No, no. It was all quite smooth and great. And New York was a great host and there's, you know, a dream making a movie in New York City. So yeah, I have been blessed and the process has been seamless and exciting and working with Fiona Shaw was a real, real, real brilliant thing. So I'm very-

great thoughts about. So how do you go about kind of packaging and getting your films ready to be made and produced and taking it from the page to real life? How does that process usually look for you? So it's really about chipping away at something and being tenacious and not being afraid of being rejected, which you get time and time and time again. So actors don't read, take six months, agents get in the way and then, you know, trial and error. Sure. Got you.

What would you tell your early filmmaking self if you could go back in time and say, hey me, check this out, think about this. To enjoy the process, it's taken me this long to actually not worry about the outcome, whether it comes out, who champions it, who sees it, just enjoy the process of working with actors, designing a set, writing, executing the film, editing it, doing the sound, making the music, and then you just have to give it up.

and put it into the big world. And if it doesn't stick, it doesn't stick. Move on and make another.