E50 • Navigating the Film Ecosystem • PHIL COX, co-dir. of ‘Khartoum’ at Berlinale following Sundance

Phil Cox discusses the importance and challenges of navigating the film ecosystem and festival landscape, and the innovative storytelling techniques used in his documentary “Khartoum”, which just screened at the Berlin Film Festival following its Sundance premiere. Past filmmakers discussed include the films of Frederick Wiseman and Joshua Oppenheimer.

Phil shares insights on collaboration and community among filmmakers, the challenges of activist filmmaking, which aims to resist traditional narratives, and the significance of self-care in the industry. 

He also addresses cultural sensitivity in storytelling and the intricacies of structuring non-linear narratives, all while reflecting on his journey as a filmmaker and the future of independent filmmaking.

Like, subscribe and follow us on our socials @pastpresentfeature

Chapters

• 0:01 50th Episode!
• 0:10 Past Present Feature, Hosted by Marcus Mizelle
• 0:30 Presented by Valerion Projectors
• 1:11 Phil Cox, co-dir. of "Khartoum" at Sundance + Berlinale

Transcript

Marcus Mizelle (00:00)
This is our 50th

50 episodes. We're almost a year in. And it's been a blessing. It's been great. Glad I did this.

Stay tuned for more.

In this episode, Phil Cox discusses the importance and challenges of navigating the film ecosystem and festival landscape and the innovative storytelling techniques used in his documentary, Cartoon, which just screened at the Berlin Film Festival following its Sundance premiere. Past filmmakers discussed include the films of Frederick Wiseman and Joshua Oppenheimer. Phil shares insights on collaboration and community among filmmakers, the challenges of activist filmmaking, which aims to resist traditional narratives,

and the significance of self-care in the

his journey as a filmmaker and the future of independent filmmaking.

Marcus Mizelle (01:52)
Thank you for doing this. appreciate it. thank you. Thank you for the interest. You know, there's so much out there. I know. mean, I'm just, the whole idea is just to try to like connect and lift each other up. It's hard to know who to reach out to sometimes. Yeah. But I think the issue of solidarity, support, identifying and like to lifting each other up, you sometimes I think that's

It's kind of our last bastion in the community with so many obstacles. We have to do that, you know, I think so. Yeah. I think so. That reminds me of Sean Baker's little speech. did it. I think BAFTA this past week talking about theaters, movie theaters, you know, he gave, he took his platform and just talked about how we need to lift back up theaters, you know, and like go from like a, back to a 90 day window, you know, like basically to your point, it's like the

This thing is like this film ecosystem, it's like it's own life. I don't want to be dramatic, but it feels like it's a little on life support sometimes, you know, things coming up so quick. we make, you know, this film we just made, Khartoum, it's at Sundance in Berlinale. I think that, you know, it's a good piece of work, this, I wouldn't say luck, but you know, so many films, they don't get there and they're great works and they're good work.

It's the films that kind of make that shortlist and then all the work that filmmakers do around that, that doesn't get seen or doesn't get that platform, but it's still, you know, strong, bold work. They just didn't get picked up by programmers. And I think, I I know we were discussing as a team making this film, Cartoon, that, you know, it's three years, which is not great by even documentary standards. And we might never really be seen. And it's just,

being able to have confidence in work you've done, not whether we're in a festival or not. And keep your kind of life support, not depending on others or programmers or broadcasters, but like within your own work. And if you can do that, you feel a bit stronger, but it's hard. yeah. I love this topic because it reminds me of my last feature doc. You know, we submitted all these festivals and we didn't get into any except for the very last one we were supposed to hear back from, which was Santa Barbara.

And in retrospect, and they were so sweet and they were like, ⁓ my gosh, do you have your war premiere available? And in retrospect, was the only, was the perfect fit for that film, you know? So I'm grateful because everything worked out from there, you know? But those other 29 festivals, it's like, man, you know, you can't help but to think sometimes, is my film not working or da da da? Yeah. It's how we value our work today. And with this recognition from like, okay.

it's a broadcaster and festivals. know, festivals as we know, deeply political and this obsession with world premiere. And I think, yeah, we have to find that emotional crutch of being able to look at work. It's not easy, because films are meant to be seen, aren't they? But I think within the community and recognizing each other work, film-maker to filmmaker, and in that kind of support network, yeah, it's the last crutch we have. We've got to hang on to it.

And you know, I've also found a lot of joy in kind of investing in being a ⁓ looking at sales and how sales work and kind of hybrid doing hybrid distribution with my films where it's like, wait a minute, we do have broadcast rights. We can put this on PBS because what else are you going to do with your broadcast rights in America? And, you know, we can do airlines. We've got an airline connection. Okay, that's cool. We got that over there. 200 million people are watching it in Europe. Cool. Whatever. You know, all the VODs like you get in where you fit in and there are

I'm always of the mind that like, what am I not thinking of that I could be thinking of that could get my film to a little more places? And it seems like that mentality leads to the film being in more places. So speaking of community, your film, you're part of a filmmaking community within just this film cartoon, right? I mean, it's five directors that make this film up, is that correct? five? Yeah, never make a film with five directors. my gosh. We'll never make more than two.

Yeah, I mean, this film, I mean, it was a very peculiar production. So it started off as a workshop in 2021. So I worked in Sudan, since in and out of Sudan since 2004. I went back in 2021 to make a film and do a workshop just in And a coup, a coup happened literally outside the window. Sudan had been in revolution since 2019. They'd overthrown the dictatorship.

And then the military components of that came back in 2021 when I was there and overthrew the people's revolution. And really kind of next to where I was working, there was this film center called Sudan Film Factory. A lot of young filmmakers there, a lot of talent who, you know, they just were energetic. They had exceptional kind of vision. They were working on 360. They had these old ideas and they had no kit. had no, nothing to work with. I reached out to Apple.

Apple donated a whole load of iPhone 14 Pros. How cool. It was a strange call. was trying to see if I could get three or four and they just gave a basket. Then from there, we all embarked on making a cinematic poem of the city. We didn't have much sound devices, so it was working on iPhones very close. I was always obsessed by these films like Berlin Symphony and the old movies of just picture and cinema in a city. We're not having interviews, nothing.

So we were filming for a while and these individual pines were coming together with five filmmakers. And then suddenly, 2023, a war broke out and Khartoum just erupted into a metropolis in violence. I mean, it was burning and killing. So as a production, we prioritized getting everybody out, all the filmmakers to escape to Kenya. And that took a while. And then in Kenya, we're all sharing a kind of

two-bedroom space, some mattresses. And we decided that somehow we should try and keep the film going as an act of resistance. We then looked for, bring all the participants out, which were two children, a single mom, two lady, a bureaucrat, and a motorbike rider volunteer. So then we spent four months bringing out these characters in covert ways out of Sudan and into Kenya. And then suddenly we were like 12 people in these two bedrooms with a load of mattresses. We're like, shit.

But then, you know, they all wanted to, they realized that we can't do anything, but let's make this film. This film could be a sign of resistance. It was then, how do we make this? Like, we have this footage before the war. We have nothing leaving. We have nothing leaving. And I have no footage of the ⁓ escape. So, yeah, it was a puzzle.

I've always really admired a filmmaker's work called Lola Arias. She's an Argentinian filmmaker and she kind of works between theatre and documentary. And she works with real people retelling their stories through recreation or taking them to spaces where they've been. And it's an amazing work. I've, you know, sometimes you see other people's work and I think, ⁓ I love that. I'm never brave enough to do it. But I thought we try and bring something of that because the stories and everything that was happened was inside the participants, inside these characters we brought out.

So we had to then find a way of working with them where they would reenact or rework their escapes and their lives before and after the war. So we created like a kind of doll's house in Greenscreen in Kenya. And we worked with them to choose which of their moments in their escape that they would want to reconstruct or recreate or redo. Also, we discussed

recorded all of their dreams, like as they were living in Kenya and dreams of memory of Khartoum, dreams of space, all in interview. Such a brilliant way to do that. I had never seen anything like that that I can recall. It's very cool. Yeah, so we started to build up this voice archive of dreams, fantasy, flying, riding on lions, spaces in the city. And then

when they came to reconstruct or re-reconstruct a pivotal moment that they chose themselves, I asked my fellow Sudanese directors to first do it themselves in front of the participants. So all the directors chose a moment like at a checkpoint of a militia coming into their room of saying goodbye to their mother. And I think, you for me, with actors you can do takes or, but with this you just gotta...

create that environment, it could maybe happen once with this real person and the directors did it and they broke down and they became emotional and the participants saw what was happening and they knew what to do and then they used each other to play different roles of their own reconstruction. So each of the five of them, one time they played in each other's stories. I'll be the soldier, you be the mother, you be the son. So they began in front of the green screen.

these very emotional and strong and sometimes funny reconstructions ⁓ of their escapes. And we showed that happening in the green screen. So you see the microphone, you see the team recording and you see them trying to do it. So it's very authentic. then we paired that with the footage before the war. And then because they were on green screen, sometimes we just flipped into animation. So we had 2D photos behind them.

But because they're in a ⁓ 3D space, they're in a, the real character is there, it felt like 3D. So we finished with this footage that was green screen reconstructions, animation, and real documentary before the war. And yet it's woven together by these voices of dream, memory, and somehow it comes together as an experience. Was this out of necessity, essentially, the creative approach to needing to tell the story in some way?

Yeah, the creativity was born out of circumstance and the circumstance was a war that blew us all apart. So we didn't have footage of the war. We didn't have footage of the escapes. So this became the way to retell that. And I think because you see them struggling to do it, so we filmed the filming of. So as you watch this film, Khartoum,

you see the directors and the participants trying to work it out, trying to do it. And I think then you just realize it's real. You see real people trying to struggle. And we didn't have the budget or the big funds to make it cool animation or to make it amazing, but that's what gives it its strength. think it's, mean, I was the kind of creative director and I kind of pretended it was all gonna work, but I had no idea. You almost have to do that, right? You have to psych yourself out. This is gonna work, this is gonna work, this is gonna work. It seems like. I'm gonna read your synopsis really quick.

Cartoon, Five Lives, One City, The Fate of a Nation. Five Lives, One City, The Fate of a Nation. From the metropolis of Cartoon, five Sudanese characters, a civil servant, a tea lady, a resistance committee volunteer, and two street boys all in search of freedom have their stories unexpectedly woven together through animated dreams, street revolutions, and a civil war. What is it like to...

work with four other directors. mean, talk about that process. What were some kind of like challenges and also just, I don't know, tips and tricks. If I ever find myself in a situation like that, what can I take and put in my bag? Yeah, I think, well, in this film, I mean, there were four clear stories, five characters and four stories. each of the directors, my colleagues, they really focused on one and they burrowed really deep into the character. They kind of slept beside them. They ate together and everyone was escaping war.

So always there was this bigger picture. It wasn't like, we're all fighting creatively. People were dying. Directors and participants had lost homes, family. And so everybody was really calm and let's try and do good work. And then my job was just trying to, how do we piece those four individual stories together? So we all actually had very specific roles. And then there was just the bigger picture of like, okay.

we're in poverty, we've got very little money, we've got to be creative. There's big shit happening. There's a war and let's all just be cool and know why we're doing this. And it worked out. it's, yeah, and it's for such a, it's, it's you call this activism as well, not just documentary, you know, activist filmmaking. I call it resistance filmmaking. Yeah. It's a film of resistance. I think that's what, you know, we, realized that the cinema is still valid and it can travel and work and they all knew.

my colleagues to Sydney, they said, there's one thing we don't wanna do. We don't wanna make reportage. We don't wanna make news. Like we're sick of that. We're sick of being portrayed as like informative black people in crisis in Africa, right? And like, if we do anything, let's be bold. Let's try stuff. Let's do dreams and let's play. So that was like, okay, let's do it. And then in this film, we didn't really have a boss.

You know, we scrabbled together money, grants, World Cinema Fund, Doha Film Institute. we, yeah. yeah, you know, there was nobody coming in saying, where are we now? Explain what they speak in this country. And I don't know what that's like actually that side of it. I mean, I just self-financed my own docs so far and it's very liberating and wonderful, but I couldn't imagine what it's like to, I don't know. I guess you could have healthy collaborations in terms of people financing it.

and setting you out on your way with a shared mission, I guess, but there are many times, huh, where you do have somebody to count like a client almost that you have to kind of hold their hand and break it down to them in the documentary world. You've experienced that? Yeah, of course. I mean, we all have. mean, I think for me, because I've been making feature docs for 20 years. so this was their first, with my colleagues, it was their first feature doc. So they kind of looked at me as if, ⁓ it will be successful. It will show, it will screen.

There's that fear when you work with participants over years, we make our work and you know that there's a possibility it will not reach festivals, it will not go out. And that was like a real emotional kind of way because being a director or working with other people is keeping that motivation, the energy, a belief, a vision, like a direction. But you yourself, inside, you're not, you know,

you're performing at times. it's, yeah. So to be, to be end up in Berlinale and Sundance, it's like, it's a relief for me. they, I'm trying to explain to them like how wonderful this is, but it's not the, you know, this doesn't happen often. Yeah. Who's Sundance and Berlinale? What? That's big one, two punch right there. I would think that's about as big as it gets, right? Yeah. And I'm trying to say that in six months time, a lot of the people patting you on the back now won't, won't answer your emails, you know.

Yeah, well, you know, it's funny. Thickle, thickle is the word that comes to mind. Yeah, hot, cold. It is cool though, how you, once you get some heat, how long that heat can kind of go and last sometimes. It's nice, but you got to be aware of the fact that the heat will die down and you better get started on your next thing, right? Not that the goal is to be, to have heat and be popular and to have social cachet, but those items, those things do help you to get your film scene and get your future films financed, right?

Yeah, but I don't know how you work, Marcus. I I always have to have two or three going, just because mentally, when the one hits that block and you're crushed, or you kind of shift to just thinking about the other one. Staggered. Yeah, there's some energy. don't know, people who just make that one single film, I don't know how they do it. I've done that before, back in my early or earlier, another time.

been around forever, but you when I was making fiction, micro budget fiction, just focus on one, focus on one, focus on one, and then you get it done and you put it out and it's like, ⁓ there's just this abusive relationship feeling, you know, where it's like this devastation of the world doesn't care. ⁓ But the documentary stuff, seems like I've, I'm on my, I'm finishing my third and fourth one right now. I just finished my third one as a short doc about the indigenous folks in North Carolina. Send that to PBS a month ago. So that's

off the plate, but I was making that along with my second feature doc, which I'm just now rounding the corner on about this private investigator in Los Angeles. And anyway, so it looks like this year I'll have two coming out, you know, for two and a half to three years, I've been working on these two and now they're going to come out kind of at the same time. But it's so true to be able to bounce back and forth between the two is almost healthy. I feel like, know, yeah, I think, you know, and also self care is a filmmaker, like how we look after ourselves mentally, how we.

how we keep working on a project. And it's really important. We think about those things just for the longevity of our projects. Sometimes it can only be within the filmmaking community because often we enjoy hearing each other's abusive horror stories. do you share with and how do you manage that longevity of looking after yourself financially and mentally? And when you hit these kind of walls and corners,

And I think community is a real way. Even if we come away, if I come away with one thing where I'm like, oh, I didn't think about that. Phil just put me on to something that I didn't quite think about. That's a bit, that's a huge win, you know, for a Tuesday morning in February. But it's also just, you know, to be able to feel less alone about it all, because this is a solo endeavor. feel like, I don't know, 80 % of the time, probably not the correct percentage for most, but that's what comes to my mind. It feels like that. I shoot my own stuff, you know, and I'm

And I love it. It's so fulfilling. But also like all we usually get are like Q and A's and a few interviews, you know, and then we're off to the next project. For me, like this podcast and other, you know, it's just nice to be able to ⁓ share information. It's almost like ⁓ a free database. I work a lot in the cross cultural space. So, you know, I was working in North Carolina. I did a film about Betty Davis, the second wife of Miles Davis there. yeah. Obviously, yeah. Got Betty, they say I'm different.

That was a few years ago. You know, obviously this film also is set in Sudan. Africa is working with Sydney subjects. You know, I'm white and how we manage these voices today. It's a minefield and how we do these things of cross collaboration. you know, it's a cartoon that represents like a really great world cinema film. And, you know, we all participated in a way we're all representative, you know, being white and British is also

a pivotal part of Sudanese history through kind of neocolonialism and why we are where we are. You know, there's a bit being brave in those spaces and being able to collaborate. ⁓ It's really important. How would you suggest someone? I'm a white man as well, but I'm interested in non-white stories. I'm interested in underdog stories. I'm interested in underrepresented people. It just feels like, you know, that's where the light should be shown.

question is, what would your advice be on how to kind of navigate as someone who's not of the world that you're filming, but you have something to contribute to the world? Well, I think we have to be able to participate in illuminating each other's stories. I think this idea of I can only tell my own color, space, gender, I think it's destructive. I think there's the real issue about pathways and opportunity and platforms

for those who are underrepresented. And I think that is just a really vital space. And I know who I am and what I've represented in the privileged pathway. But there's still basic good storytelling and there's basic shit storytelling, right? And I work on a lot of juries and I see, you know, I've seen recently producers or people being stating in their submission documents, you know, they...

they're white or they're black and therefore they won't comment on the director's vision or opinion because they're of a different ethnicity or a different gender. But actually when you come down to a story that you need combative kind of push and pull, you need criticism. I think, you know, projects that I have judged numerous ones that don't have a kind of a good critical structure around them of different voices, different opinions, they just become one dimensional.

they come predictable. And I think there's something about just good storytelling that you should be able to be critiqued on. It doesn't matter if you, you know, your color is that simple. to be open to it. Yeah. Yeah. It's not that complicated. Yeah. Cause that is what we're doing here. Let me ask you this structurally for cartoon. How did you come across the structure? I know it was kind of a bit out of necessity. Like you were playing around, seems like a little bit to try to figure things out, but did you ever have a structure in mind?

even just like a shape of one when you set out? Yeah, so a lot of my films the past 20 years, they have multiple characters. You know, that is that thing of when a weakness of a story starts to appear, you can just jump ship. You jump to another story. You're keeping everything buoyant by your parallel action. OK, so when I came into this one, I was like, I knew what could happen. We have five stories all flowing. But the key was the key is that all the characters appeared in each other's stories.

So when they did the green screen, they all used each other to role play different roles. So the audience never left the five. And that was the key. The film never drops. Because when you make these kind of structural decisions, know, okay, I've been with character A, I haven't been there for 15 minutes. I've got to go back to character B. But this film worked because all characters appeared in each other's stories. So I never had that problem with the structure. And it was just with the editor, the editor, Yusef Juba, it was a real, yeah, it was a kind of...

pivotal lightbulb moment that we're okay. I had this little phase where I was just writing feverishly. Then I got to this point where I'm like, ooh, I want to really challenge myself and start doing more ensemble pieces and more non-linear things and, you know, kind of more advanced stuff and not just following a single protagonist in a linear hero's journey form or whatever. I had so much fun trying to do the ensemble stuff. And I love like, you know, where it's like, how does that movie work so well? Because there's so much going on. There's so many people and yet I'm glued to the TV. And when I go and try and do it,

what is the kind of story engine and the thread that kind of like makes it feel like it's cohesive and tight? And I guess for that film, it's as simple as like they're all after the same exact thing, you know? And so I'm always been questioned like, what is a method that can make an ensemble work, you know, or nonlinear story work to where it doesn't feel all over the place? Your method there where it's like everybody comes in and out of each other's story is like one method, I feel like that could make it feel tight.

That's the method if you have multiple characters, like, cause then you're going to be in trouble, right? Like if we've got multiple characters in parallel story, how, you know, but my, my saving grace was I made them appear in each other's stories. But then I think we look at things like, know, is there a clock? Is there a, is there a ticker happening? Like somebody's got a, something's happened by when, you know, like, they share that the drawer at the beginning. Yeah. They share that the gun in the drawer and the first scene or this one, we had to tell backwards. I couldn't tell the structure forward.

because if I started this film in a linear fashion, like before the war, I didn't have a middle, right? But if I started at the end, your question is what happened? Why are they here? So then I can just jump back and I can fragment. Nobody cares. They just want to know, how did they get here? And I can slow that down and then move it out. Kind of a memoir, almost like memoir vibes in a way. Yeah. And as soon as, I think as soon as you...

you set up in those first few minutes with the audience, this will be told differently. This will be unexpected. Then people just go with it. They're not like, okay, this is a linear, why is this now come to a dead end? Do you ever go from a place of where like your structure feels like ⁓ a lot, like where you're figuring it out, where it can be a, where it makes sense to you and it's clear to you, but you still feel like it could be confusing for an average viewer. And then do you kind of make a turn to where it's like you start cleaning it up a little bit and simplifying things? that, that?

that because that's my situation. I'm projecting. That's what happens with me. And then once it gets simple, it's like, ⁓ now there's the movie along with my structure. You know what I mean? Is it the same for you? Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I'm not an editor, but I'll structure and I'll lay it lay down assembly. And then, you know, it's about just enjoying collaborating with an editor who can, who can be unexpected. And I think, you know, I, I, I sort of charge it, there's passive editors and active editors and like,

passive, they sit beside me and they wait in the sense of direction or clarity. And then there's active who just, do weird shit. They throw things around. Yeah. And they fight for their beliefs too, right? Sometimes. Yeah. But then I just say, no, that's not right. It's easier for me to just say no. And then suddenly something will appear. And I love working with those types of people. And I think on this film, it got to a state where the structure was there, but it wasn't working.

And then, you know, I was exhausted with the editor, Joe Youssef, and we found that that's when we brought in a consultant editor who really, it was just shaving seconds, touching something like so little and suddenly the film came. And I think it's also when you made films long enough, you realize when you're exhausted and you need to bring in another voice. And we had that on Khartoum and suddenly just shavings, just time for everything to

It's like this curation. It's not just bringing in somebody, it's bringing in somebody specific. Bringing someone specific and not having ego. Like, I know I need someone now. I had this PI project I was telling you about. I had it at two and a half hours and, you know, cutting it down from, I'm shooting it and editing it and doing too much, but it is what it is. You know, getting it from like 60 hours of footage down to eight, down to four, down to two and a half. And then I'm like, I don't know what else to do. I need, I need help. And I brought, I was like, my buddy Mike is really good with this type of film.

And I bet he's so fresh. He doesn't know anything about this really. Hey Mike, you want to do a pass real quick? And a week later he handed me a 92 minute cut and I'm like, keep those people close. You keep those people close. love him very much. know? So anyways, yeah, it's just like you, but picking the right person. And it was just, it's a wonderful thing. production wise, what was like kind of the craziest, what's, what's the most notable kind of moment during production for you that you would like to share? That's not maybe so obvious.

It's all pretty intense when you're watching the film. But is there anything that maybe that I don't know that you'd like to share about production? Well, production, mean, finance, we just were like, ⁓ do we let my fellow filmmakers die or do we spend all the money to get them out? Literally a threat of Wow. Yeah. So yeah, the money just obviously just went. It seems when you control production, because this was indie, it's such a different thing than if you've got

people you're responsible to like broadcasters or heavyweights where you're just in the middle of this balancing act. It's so stressful and you're promising one thing to the left hand and the right hand is about to come at you. You know, you're promising something else to the right hand. And while you're trying to just like focus on the story. Yeah. And so production, you know, happened during a ⁓ massive war. ⁓ but it was just done by very tight indie individuals. ⁓ and we answered to ourselves. So I think that's.

Yeah, that was one of the greatest things. So you were already on the ground when the war broke out. Yeah, that's right. Well, I was there before the war and then I got arrested. I have a kind of a long relationship with working in Sudan. So I worked as a journalist, human rights stuff for a long period in Darfur covering the war. Then in 2016, 2017, I went back into Darfur and I got kidnapped by militias and kept in...

kept in a prison for a long time, a political prison for four or five months. So I wasn't really a friend of the government in Sudan. And then that government was overthrown. So I thought I would tentatively go back very quietly in 2021. And I went back to see friends of mine who I met in prison and start to work and contribute to the filmmaking community, people who had helped me. And I made a film called The Spider-Man of Sudan there for The Guardian.

And then outside, then the coup happened and this project started about collaborating with my fellow filmmakers. I want to read your bio real quick with just the one that IMDB has up here. You're a director and writer in New Helm, award-winning indie film collective, Native Voice Films in London. You've directed, written and shot over 30 films for TV and cinema. Your recent cinematic features as director and writer are The Bengali Detective, Love Hotel, Betty, They Say I'm Different, and of course, Cartoon.

Can tell me your origin story as a filmmaker? mean, it sounds like you're, you're, got to have a journalist background. Um, but like, don't know, like what, what's your, what's your, uh, what's your origin story as a filmmaker? My origin story. Well, I studied, um, I studied languages and I was really into poetry and literature. And I was like a romantic who obviously couldn't write a line. I was like really awful. And, uh, I studied in Latin America, ended up in, um, Chile in university.

doing poetry and I was invited to Havana, Cuba to work with some Cuban writers. And while I was there, I went to use, there's a famous film school in Cuba, in San Antonio de los Baños, and I went to use the library there in the film school. I was like 21 years old and there were these filmmakers asked me, I speak Spanish, they asked me to help translate and work with them. And I got involved in the documentary, I didn't know anything about it. And about three days in, I was like, this is it.

I found it. And I remember one night I couldn't sleep and I was like, I found it. And I just saw like, you could do something so small as like the shoemaker on the side of the street. You could make it to something epic and beautiful. Also, it was, you were in the real world. There was like cold, hot movement. It wasn't academic. You had to engage like with reality and run. And also I could work as a one or two. And I remember that night in Havana, I just

I couldn't sleep and I realized I found something. This is it. And that film I participated in. So I went to Locarno. It was screened in Locarno. So there I was. I was 22 years old thinking every film you make obviously goes to Locarno. Wow, this is easy. Yeah, was like, obviously this is just like... And of course, after that, it was downhill. Well, I don't know that. Yeah, but like 20 years later.

It was exciting. I was, you know, I 21, 22, like fairly lost. But it's such a beautiful thing to get that taste right out the bat, right? Just to see what it could be as opposed to like, you know, I don't know, the other direction of like, oh, that did nothing. I guess I'll go do something else now. Maybe that Locarno experience gave you some juice. No, it was the individuality of being able to do something alone, something that you could also, you know, I was kind of a romantic, I couldn't write for hell. And there was this opportunity to

to make film this way and yeah, that was my origin story. What's some of her bigger works for you? Yeah, well, mean, Wiseman I really love. You know, I think there's a lot of filmmakers, mean, Oppenheimer. There's a lot of work out there that I think, you one of the things I really find today is we don't watch enough films of other documentary work. Like sometimes we're stuck in our tele-visual language. So when I'm on a jury, like I see all the British kind of submissions make the same type of film.

all the like Eastern Europeans make the same type of, because we're watching the same things and like to be in festivals and see and be challenged. And like, think, shit, my work is really boring. That's, that's, that's a cheat code for this, this podcast. I'm getting to see so much dope shit, man. It's like, ⁓ wait a minute. I didn't know that you could make a movie that lasts four hours and get into New York film festival. Observational cinema. Let me go down that rabbit hole real quick. You know, it's like, I was never exposed to that. Yeah, I know. And I think,

It's about we got to see stuff, watch stuff. What do you, what juries are you on? What festivals? I work a lot for the Doha Film Institute. So I'm a reader there. used to run a, I used to run actually, there's amazing British government sponsored grant. Had a million pounds a year and gave development grants, know, non recoupable development grants to

global filmmakers to try and bring interesting films to the British public that were set outside Britain. It was an amazing idea and trying to have the British public have something to look outwards and not just inwards. So that ended pretty quickly in 2015. But yeah, I do work for some other festivals. I think for me, I don't survive working in the UK. UK television is very structured, very formulaic. So I work a lot by

of course collaborating. Now I'm working on a musical in Sicily with Fisherman. ⁓ Yeah. You have a very interesting thing going on it seems like. I don't survive through, I live in Hollywood, but I don't rely on it. If I did, I'd be screwed. You know what I mean? But you've got to, I don't know. It's like, you know, what can you do that fulfills you, but also, you know, how do you make your money? And here's my next question. How do you make your money? Are you able to do what you want to do and make money at the same time?

Yeah, so first of all, I Native Voice Films, right? So we're a collective. So we've been running 20 years. So it's like, how do we survive? How do we work? So I saw very quickly, Native Voice Films, know, we're a traditional kind of business and company at the beginning. And then suddenly you'll start to expand and then overheads, payments, and then I'm forced into making certain types of films for television. And suddenly I lost any joy and it was about this pressure of trying to

keep other people in employment. And so it became a collective. So we had a space and that this space and this name, international filmmakers or different genres, they come and use it. It's very light. And if we need a project or to pitch for funding, we use the company, but we kind of don't know, we don't have salaries. We use it project by project. So that's how we keep it alive. I do a lot of teaching. I'm sorry. I'm in the podcast space and writing. Yeah. So

I think it's, you can keep yourself light, that that's a help. you have tea and sandwiches and ride a bicycle, like I do, that also helps. Don't have, don't have children. That's like a big thing. my God. got one. Okay, Marcus, here you go. I've got one too. It's just 10, 15 and now he's my sound man and he's cheap. Your kid helps you with your films? Yeah. So my son, Romeo and yeah, so he's, he loves doing sound and you know, I'm also trying to tell him, Romeo, like.

actually you always have to pay the sound man and people don't want to do sound they want to be directors so there's always a shortage of people doing sound so he started working with me and actually yeah he was great and so we worked together. Such an intimate skill too to have I mean my first experience in documentary was sound somebody stupidly hired me to do sound for their doc and I was like yeah I'll do it I didn't know nothing and next thing I know I'm in New York City with like

you know, an old school four channel mixer and like, you know, big Sony headphones and a boom and like wires everywhere. It was hilarious. then it's not an amazing way in a way to come in through sound. Amazing. And that first day of sound was not very usable. Sorry. But you were trying to be cheap and you got, you got me, but by the time we got to Chicago two days later, I had it figured it out, but it was such a want to be able to hear every little thing. That's such a cool, that is a very sneaky, cool way to, to, get in.

I feel like, you know, not just as a job, but as like an experience, like a special experience. That's one of the roots of becoming into the step into cinema is to stop thinking of the seeing. Sure. But the hearing, the suggesting and what's happening off screen. You know, think that's all great stuff. So that's cool. So my kid's five and he is wearing me out because he's like, can we make a movie tonight? And I'm like,

Yeah. He's ready, Marcus. ready. Yeah. It's up to me now. I got to stay. He's like, yes, we will. But I'm like, can we take a break? But he's in love. He's in love. know, he's in love with the Star Wars, of course. it's such a wonderful, weird, amazing thing to have a mini you, you know? Yeah. Mini you. They still keep asking when you're going to make a proper movie like, you know, a cowboy movie. doesn't like my movies so far. Yeah. Nice. OK, so back to your film real quick. So OK, Sundance. How did Sundance go?

How was that? Okay, Sundance was, I mean, look, it's, you get into Sundance and it's amazing. It's incredible. And then suddenly you realize what Sundance has become and is, and it is a second production. Sure. 15, 20,000 plus to be able to be there and accommodation. And for indie filmmakers, it's like this, there's something gone wrong. There's really something gone wrong. And, you know, the Sundance team and staff there are amazing.

And I think what Sundance was as a concept for Indie was important and groundbreaking and special. But some poison has dropped in that well. And for Indies to be there, it's become something other. And that needs to change. I know Sundance might be moving. Maybe that'll help. But we can't be expected to raise another 10 to 30,000 just to participate. Shit.

Yeah. I think, I mean, there's still great, there's great intention at heart, but I feel sorry for American filmmakers. Thank you. North American filmmakers, have, I mean, you have Sundance, but then that's kind of it. In Europe, we have, you know, Berlinale, you have...

You have Cannes, Venice. You have a lot of different potentials or structures. And what do you have there? South by Southwest? I would say New York Film Festival is about as European as it seems to get as far as, know, but it seems pretty quality. I mean, you know, there's like the New York of it all. Tribeca seems decent. But then you have the kind of like next rung down. I mean, look, I love Santa Barbara. I'm not just saying that because they've treated me well, but like I do love what they stand for. They do. And that's weird because LA doesn't have an actual festival.

They do now. I Slamdance just moved here and Slamdance is actually having their first LA premiere next week. I believe they start. So that's kind of exciting and cool. Yeah. We met some of their team at Sundance because they got kicked out. They're an amazing group of the Slamdance people. But anyways, I think, you know, it's just American cinema in general. And I'll keep this so brief. It's fucking frustrating because Hollywood, you know, controls everything and their priority is, you know, low hanging fruit and money and box office. And that's it.

And I think it's because American culture laid over and just has accepted what they're given. I think that's a big part of it.

So you know what? I'm just going to stop myself right there. When do you screen it in Berlin? Tomorrow? Yeah. So tomorrow's our premiere and European premiere. So yeah, we're all excited. lot of the Sydney's colleagues have come across and yeah, just, it's just great to be in front of an audience. And then we'll be traveling, you know, maybe back into the States, maybe with an impact travel campaign. see.

We'll see what will happen me know if you're in LA. And Berlin is so special, isn't it? Don't you love Berlin? Yeah. Berlin still has like a, I like that there's an earthiness of the town. There's something like still a bit underground, which, you know, is disappearing everywhere. But there's, yeah, I like, I like a little bit of the edge here and, uh, that still feels a touch of anarchic in corners. You can find that. What do you have? Uh, what do you have next? What's your next? You said you stagger your projects like me. What do you, what else do you got cooking?

Yes, I'm working with a group of Sicilian fishermen, South of Sicily, where we're also based as Native Voice. And that's going to be like a musical. So I'm working with them and like a Sicilian composer, it's kind of a little bit of a magical, strange film. And I'm also working with a woman with MND, completely paralysed, who can only move her eye in the UK. yeah, so different projects. How do you know when to pursue a project?

I think it's just like, so I find these stories organically and I think the longer I've been making films, the more you learn the danger signs, the more you learn like, where you're just being strong willed and this, this is danger. Don't do it. when I started off, I was just like, bull in a China shop, just continue with anything and make it work. And it costs you years, relationships, money, you know, you learn through all those things. I think I still work organically. Stories come to me.

And then I'm just looking for just basic things like what's the stake? What's, you know, can this person endure this period with me? Is it a three minute? Is it a 90? So writing is really important. I try and write down chapters, imaginary or not. And then I work with, I always work with the subject. like, do you want to do this? Shall we do this? How, what would be the next chapter? I include them. I always try and include the people I work with.

And yeah, they never really understand what it is to be a film and what it's till the end. But like, if we include them, find it so much easier that journey. How would you do this? Or do you think that might be boring or like, where could we take this? And then I might throw in ideas. might, I call throwing matches. So I'm always throwing matches around other people. Like it's just something sparked, something open. And I do that when I shoot, you know, I'll throw matches in a conversation that's going and see what.

it goes somewhere, you know, so I don't mind manipulating like that. Nice. Great. That's great. Throwing matches. What would you tell your early filmmaking self when you were starting out? If you could go back in time and give that kid, I don't know, anything, any sort of information, would there be anything you'd say? Yeah, I guess just a bit like what I said. I mean, learn, learn the know, learn, read the danger. Don't, don't be so romantic. You, you, convince ourselves things are right until like we're on fire.

And then you're like a burning corpse of a filmmaker. all of a sudden, Discover Card says, oh, you owe us $70,000. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if you told your early filmmaker that, if you told your younger self, that'd be shut up. Just have hard belief. Yeah, right. What do you do? Yeah, yeah. They'd be like, what do you know? You burn corpses and all that. Nice. Oh, man. Thank you very much. Marcus, thank you. Marcus, thank you.