E53 • Making Films Without Fear • NATESH HEGDE, dir. of ‘Tiger’s Pond’ at Berlinale

Indian filmmaker Natesh Hegde discusses his journey in filmmaking, from his early inspirations to the challenges and triumphs of creating his latest film, “Tiger’s Pond,” which just world-premiered at the Berlin Film Festival. Past inspo includes Iranian filmmaker Abbas Kiarostami's 1990 film “Close Up”.

Natesh shares insights on collaborating with family, including casting his father in the lead, the importance of sound design, and the unique experience of shooting on 16mm film. 

He emphasizes the courage to create without fear of failure and offers advice to aspiring filmmakers to simply keep making films.

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Chapters

• 0:01 Past Present Feature, Hosted by Marcus Mizelle
• 0:20 Presented by Valerion Projectors
• 1:03 Natesh Hegde, dir. of "Tiger Pond" at the Berlin Film Festival

Transcript

Marcus Mizelle (01:03)
Natesh Hegde discusses his journey in filmmaking, from his early inspirations to the challenges and triumphs of creating his latest film, Tiger's Pond, which just world premiered at the Berlin Film Festival. 1990 film Close with family.

including casting his father in the lead acting role, the importance of sound design, and the unique experience of shooting on 16mm film. He emphasizes the courage to create without fear of failure offers advice to aspiring filmmakers to making films.

Marcus Mizelle (01:37)
Thank you for doing this. I appreciate it. And congrats on the Berlin Owl. ⁓ Your world premiering, yeah? Yeah. Have you screened at Berlin Owl before? No, it's first time. So you're very excited? Yeah, of course. I mean, it's a big, big, big festival. mean, not that we want to. We need to like talk about hierarchies, but it's top what? Top three, top five in the world. Yeah. When you got the acceptance, what did that feel like? How did that come in?

So yeah, we were in the shortlist for a couple of months. We were anticipating it. But again, it was relief. Yeah. How did you celebrate? mean, or did you celebrate? Nothing much. You didn't get the other nine families together in the village and do a little shindig? No, no. So my father also acted in my film. He's an electrician.

by profession, but he acted in my debut film also and he's in this film as well. Okay. What's your dad's name? His name is Gopal Hegde. Got you. And he's like the protagonist, he's like the lead in your film? Yeah, he's one of the lead. Amazing. Well, that's a great thing to start with then. What is it like working with your dad who acted in your film? Tell me about that. It's fun. Like, you know,

Now he has to, you know, take my orders. It is fun. Nice. Is there any pushback from him? he ever, does he back talk? You got to put him in timeout? No, he enjoyed it. That's so cool. There's been a few of these interviews where there's father son collaborations. And my son also is nothing new to anybody listening to this podcast, but my son has also shown extreme interest in filmmaking.

And we've been making films too, so I'm sure he'll be bossing me around in like three years. Can't wait for that. Let's start in chronological order, if you don't mind. What was your first memory of being a filmmaker? And when did you know you wanted to be one? ⁓ it's like ⁓ when I read that interview, I didn't know, but in retrospect, I can tell. So I read an article about Abbas Kirostami.

His film close up. So there was the brief synopsis of it. You know the actual case and know arrest of the guy called Sabzian and how Abbas Kiraswami documented it. And there was this very bad quality of YouTube link. So I watched that film ⁓ in YouTube. Very bad print. So that...

made me realize like, oh, this can also be a film. Suddenly I realized I have some stories also. Like my life also can be a film. Pause real quick if you don't mind, because I do exist. This helps to take care of another question that I had too, as far as your past, your big past inspiration, not just for your current film, but for, you know, just yourself as a filmmaker. Abbas Karastami's Close Up, 1990.

It's about the true story of Hassan Sabzian, a cinephile who impersonated the director Mohsen to convince a family they would star in his so-called new film. mean, come on. Look, lot of people love Abbas on this podcast, too. These come up quite a bit. Abbas Kharostami was an Iranian film director, screenwriter, poet, photographer, and film producer. An active filmmaker from 1970, Kharostami had been involved in the production of over 40 films, including shorts and documentaries. From Tehran, Iran. Died in Paris, France. Won the Palme d'Or.

Grand Jury Prize. What is it about this film? Let's just take a minute to talk about close up, if you don't mind. Besides the fact that it gave you a fresh perspective on how and what you can make a film about, tell me more. What else did this film do for you? There are many shots, I ⁓ can recall. The very famous shot of the protagonist kicking an empty can on the road and it rolls.

So that shot like, know, till then we were thinking like we have to tell something or, you know, we have to communicate something or story should progress. But at that moment, it was like it's a halt for the story and you're just observing life unfolding. So that particular moment was like it was like a shock. there any Khorastami

influences that have made their way into your films? Not really. Like I consciously avoid that because, I'm making films from my imagination and my life experience. They inspire me to make films. don't think about this medium, but not necessarily I copy something. And what would you say your style of film or what is your tone style, you know, brand of filmmaking, your own personal brand? That's also I'm not

consciously trying to do. just want to, you know, be honest and you know, whatever my thinking about the medium at that particular point, I just want to practice that and reflect that. You know, maybe after some films, five, six films, I realize what is my style is. I love that. I love that.

⁓ You never studied filmmaking formally, but writing was your escape from reality. I'm reading here in this ⁓ article from platformmag.com. You finished graduation in a town nearby, village called Circe, graduated in science and later pursued journalism. Talk about that, your formative years, know, like talk about, you know, being in, going to school for what you went to school for, and then how did that kind of transition into filmmaking for you? I never studied filmmaking.

But you know, it was there, like from 12th or something, I had this in my mind, like, you know, I have to tell stories. That was a kind of urge. So I used to start writing short stories. And suddenly I felt like, you know, this medium is not enough for me. Like, you know, my stories started becoming like instructions, like screenplays. You know, there was description about sound and, you know, the...

And then I realized I need different medium to tell the story. So it was a gradual shift towards filmmaking. What was like your first film that you made? I made a short film set in my village. I casted my father. I also acted in that. There's a black and white short film called Crap. So that was my first shot. then I made another shot. ⁓

I made my first feature. Got you. ⁓ And then you were off. And then all of a sudden you were just bam. Were there any challenges that did you face? mean, was there any kind of like roadblocks that you hit? Talk about like some struggles that you've been through as a filmmaker, if there are any, and how they helped you along your journey. Is there anything that comes to mind? No, I really don't think I faced any struggle. I don't see like...

trying to get money for the film is a struggle or you know, whatever to make the film that's I don't consider that as a struggle. The struggle for me is like to stick on to your way of making films and your approach, not get deviated by other factors. after making one or two films, you realize like what works and how can you, you know, do all these manipulations. But you have to stick on to your

approach. That is the struggle, I think. What is one of the more compelling memories you have while making a film? Something that sticks with you? Is there any moments that gave you some sort of like memorable moment? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, like, you know, the very first day of my film shoot where my father was lying on the road and the whole village was watching that shot. And, you know, it was very humiliating for him also.

for me also. I could see tear in his eyes and I slowly went to him and said, see we have chosen to create some art, then we have to face this. And at that moment it was so heartening for both of us. We decided to do whatever to make this film. So it was a healing thing for us.

It sounds like it's almost like the most challenging or the most trying moment for you and your dad, but also the most rewarding. It seems like it hits both of those. That's so cool. Do you guys have any... Are you going to continue to work with your dad in the future? Yeah, of course. Okay, you're just like, okay, I love this. This is so good. It's not just a one-off thing. It's like, this is the thing that we're going to be doing here. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. You seem like a pretty practical guy who doesn't get too high or too low. I mean, I've known you for 12 minutes.

That's a good way to be, right? mean, would you say that's true? Yeah, I believe that is true. Where do you think that comes from? Where do you get that from? Because a lot of us aren't like that. I don't know, but you know, maybe the life I have seen or my surrounding teaches me that. Just the slowness, the slow pace, the be in the moment kind of, that something like this? Yeah, that's also so and also it was not very easy like from my...

place to just imagining that I will make a film or I'll be an artist is not an easy thing. You already got that courage, you will be. Everything else is not that difficult. So you're saying you're the only filmmaker in town, Yeah. Yeah. You got a monopoly on other commercials? No, not really.

But we have a very strong industry which is located in Bangalore, Canada film industry. As you know, India produces a lot of films. We had Nikhil Bhatt on the film Kill. ⁓ He was super cool. Loved him. I am from a small town, like I told you. Nothing the small is yours. Yours just sounds like an intersection.

But still small and making films for a living was not something that people took seriously, you know what I mean? Or thought about doing. So I can imagine maybe more easily than most what it was like to say, fuck it anyways and go for it. Even when there was no path or there's nobody there to kind of help beyond my parents, you know, support. it does take, it does make other things seem less trivial.

If you can make films from a place of limited resources and limited support or limited paths, once you make that, it does make other things seem much easier. Just to gather the courage to start something. You know, not making a film. That's a good topic, I feel like, to gather the courage to just start something and make something. Because that seems to be the deciding factor between many people either having something or nothing at all.

whether it be careers, film, whatever. It's like this people have fear of failure. I've never understood this concept, fear of failure. Apparently it's a thing. I don't mean to sound like an asshole, but I just don't, I've never had that concern, you know, where it's like, the only fear I have is to not try to waste my time and not try to fear failure is silly to me. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, people kind of can hesitate or whatever. And it's always good to just kind of like go for it, right? Wouldn't you say?

Yeah, otherwise like by just thinking you're or anyway you're failing. Yeah, what makes you what do you think if you can go back in that in that moment whenever you have an idea for a project or something like that project or script, you know, film, what makes you kind of pull the trigger? Is there a moment like a decision point or or is there no decision point at all? You just roll with it. You just go. Do you not stop and think? I just go like, you know, have my team or, you know, the very close people.

You know, whenever I think of a story, I get very clear opinion about that. so far, no one question. You just take action. Yeah, we start. Yeah. Because why make things harder, right? Human beings love making things more difficult than they need to be. That is a fact. Yeah. It's an interesting thing. OK, moving on to your film and less about life philosophies.

So, okay, so your film, I'm gonna try to pronounce this. I know it translates into tiger pond, tiger's pond, right? But the film is called Bagacipanyi. And it is a, let's, I'm just gonna read a little bit of the synopsis on the Burlinau ⁓ page here. The idyllic landscape conceals a fallen world under the sway of the tiger god. The circular lord of this domain, however, is probably a ruthless businessman trying to win a local election with the help of his faithful right-hand man.

an immigrant known as Malabari. When Basu, a politically savvy outcast worker, stands up to their intimidation tactics and ill-earned authority, the strict hierarchy and the feudal order of Prabhu's dominion threatens to come undone. Deepening the inquiry of his acclaimed debut feature, Pedro, in 2021, Natesh Hegde offers a sharp, simmering crime drama exploring the nefarious confluence of caste and political power in southern India. Set in a hermetic village ruled by fear and tradition,

Hague Day's film is a game of tigers and cows, a tale of structural depression and spontaneous resistance around the figure of the mute maid Patti. The spectral camera drifts through this netherworld, registering its rocky terrain, its murky going-ons, and its unforgettable faces in rapturous 16mm imagery. As it unmasks the brutality beneath the serene beauty of the village, the still waters of Tiger's Pond begin to reveal their treacherous depths. Okay, two questions. First one, why this story?

I know you, can tell you're probably not a fan of breaking apart the whys and the, you know, like analyzing too much, like a David Lynch type, but I don't know why this story, why do you feel the need to tell this story? Because making a movie is hard and long and I think it's nice to at least self analyze a little bit. mean, why did you need to tell this film? Yeah, like, you know, there are, I saw an image of, you know, a girl burnt in front of police, like, you know.

happened somewhere in India. So that image stuck in my mind, like you whole system is witnessing that. That was the triggering point. Then I started writing it, the story. And then the story just came in its own way through what? Just a mixture of maybe inspiration from real life, but mostly just imagination? Yeah.

There was one short story in Canada that also inspired me to write this script. It's by Amarish Nugudoni. He wrote a short story called Dare Uri Dare. So that was also the beginning point for this film. Gotcha. And in 16mm, let's talk about that. I've never shot on 16. It's pretty special, huh? It's got its own distinct look, flavor. Yeah, what was that like?

So one, it's like the texture of it and you know the whole practice of making film in film stocks. It's little expensive but still that practice is something else. I wanted to do that for my first film also but I didn't have the courage. I don't know what people will say if I had approached with this idea of shooting it in 16mm.

But after the first film, got, you know, it screened at some festivals, got awards. So, I could ask for some more money and this time we were, you know, very determined to shoot it in 16mm. One is the practice of it, you know, the precision of it, making film, film stock. And one more thing is I wanted very

discarded look for this film. It looks aesthetically beautiful also, but it is like something like we found this film from somewhere. That kind of imagery that I was thinking. It's got a little dirt on it. Yeah. Kind of look like you found it behind a building somewhere. I mean, I've got one image to go on and it's the image of the car and the Burlino site. ⁓ it looks...

Very much like that. And also with shooting on film, which I never have done except for Super 8 back when I was very young, you really do have to pre-vis, right? You really do have to think about what you're going to do before you do it. can't just like digital, you can just roll kind of and just let it go and da da da and figure it out and pose, which is not a good idea, right? I mean, film, you have to be conscious and communicate. I really don't believe in this coverage shooting.

What? The medium shot, the close up, the wide shot, medium close, turnarounds, da da da. Yeah. I hate it. And one more thing, like ⁓ when I write, it's almost like how I imagining the film in my mind. So it is like, it is always there. What is the shot? you know, even as you're writing it, you're visualizing the actual framing of what you're saying, what you're writing. And also it includes edit also, like

how we are constructing it. It's also there in the script. You're saving a lot of time too in that approach. I feel like that's a great way to be as opposed to trying to figure it out as you go and like how that which which really just means you're unsure about what your vision is, right? So you have a very clear vision as you're writing it, you're seeing how it's going to be shot and edited. And you just go collect it at that point. Yeah, it's not that like, you know, in the shoot, we are not, we are just executing things. Yeah, but we know we are.

creating it there also in edit also we are creating it but we have little more clarity about what is the film and how it looks. Production of this film production like how long did you shoot for and I guess what was like the most memorable moment from this shoot? We shot for 30 days.

30? Yeah. One straight schedule. Just five days a week? Yeah, everything ⁓ is the memorable thing in film shoot. Maybe in three years or four years we get to shoot a film. For that 30 days we are fully into it. The whirlwind. Yeah.

Is there a favorite moment that you can think of? Not a competition between moments, but is there something that sticks out in your mind? With this film, we built a tiger statue, which was more than 100 kilos. It was 120 kilos. It's a waterfall. our team, seven or eight people, we tied this tiger idol to...

⁓ bamboo and we are carrying it. So that moment is stuck in my mind. Okay, yeah, yeah. mean, you know, was there any moments where like you that you filmed and you weren't quite sure if it was going to work out in the in the edit and then it did better than you thought? Does it ever happen for you? I think I never shot anything which I haven't used in the edit. Really? Yes. Every single scene, every shot?

Not every take, of course. Yeah, every shot. nothing is. Yes, we have used. Can you walk me through how you how you would film it? I know you said it's going to match like what you initially saw when you wrote it, but like when you're on the day about the film, about the role of the camera, how do you approach that? Like, do you just get one? You only you only see it as one shot, say in this moment where somebody's where something's happening, you only see it this one way and then you just collect it. You film it that one way.

Yeah, like you know, first thing is like we arrive at this space and we visit the space multiple times to see the light and to just imagine the choreograph there, how the character moves there. So the space dictates like how we break it down, the shots. So in that way, like it's pretty clear that how, you know, the scene is unfolding. In that way, like we have, if we are not using

the whole scene or otherwise we have to use everything. Got you. Got you. So it's kind of a mix of what you have in your mind, the visual kind of exactness with like blocking it out with the geography of the space. Yeah. Yeah. How do you work with actors? you do you sometimes let them kind of move around in the space before you lock down how you want to shoot it? Or how does that go? I give the complete freedom to them. And also it's with every actor, it is different. So like someone like you have to

tell him more or for someone you don't have to tell anything. You just have to brief the scene and you know, I just I write some dialogues on set, like I change whatever like I'm fully into the into the know, practice and then something come to my mind and I write and I give it to them. So in that way, it's very flexible.

Or sometimes it's just as simple as saying, Dad, stand over there. Yeah. Sometimes you don't have to explain a lot of things. It ruins the scene. You just have to tell him to look to your right and smile. Sometimes good directing is, or just good at anything, being efficient and productive. A lot of times it involves not doing too much at all, Just not doing too much. Yeah. I mean, it's always...

the director explains more, the scene. You just have to believe in the actor and you have to believe in the cameraman and everyone. You just have to believe. Now, was it tough to decide between cameraman and your 10 person village, 10 family village? No, no, like the cameraman is from another part. I figured I was just trying to make a terrible joke. Post-production then, you know, so how does, was...

Did it just come together smoothly with no issues whatsoever and boom, bam, bam, like you were done? Okay, here you go, Barlin. No, not really. Like for editing, it always takes time. Like, you know, it's also like you're watching it and slowly you build the film. Like, you know, how you build house, like brick by brick. So that process is something like I added myself with ⁓ Parish Kamdar. He's my editor.

He's a filmmaker, like he's 60 plus year old. So I work with him. Can you talk about the value of working with an editor? Because I'm the same thing with my films. Where, I edit, but also I need some, I need some freshness. I need some like, you get in the weeds, don't you? When it's your film and you've been directing, you've been, right, you wrote it and you've directed it you've been producing it probably, and you've been doing all these things and you're also editing. But a lot of times you're just incapable of seeing the full possibilities, right?

Would you say that the value for you bringing on an editor that you actually can trust and like appreciate? Yeah, he's initially like I do the first rough cut and then we know we see together and he comes to my house. were like we're talking about all things about the world and you know, we are editing also. We take breaks and you know, it is mutually we start.

getting the film. What does he bring to the table that if he wasn't on board, wouldn't be there? ⁓ His sense of seeing the film in totality, that is something very special. ⁓ It's not about cutting five frames here and there. That doesn't make any change. You have to see it in totality. And each time you see the film, you have to be fresh and see it.

as if you are seeing it for first time. my God, I know what you mean. When you start having that sense of totality. Yeah. That's when you know your movie, right? You know what it's about. You know what it is. But until that moment, it's a little nerve wracking. Yeah. It's like, what did I do? What do I have? What do I have here? I mean, it's so, yeah, it's like, that's such a huge collaboration. I used to only edit, I used to edit my movies by myself and the first few. And I wish I wouldn't have, you know, I wish I would have brought on somebody.

But you live and you learn, know, no regrets, just lessons. Anything else in post-production that is significant? Sound is one thing which is very, very crucial. You can create very concrete world with the sound. With the image, you have only one layer. But with sound, it's infinite. Like you can do a lot of things. And also you can't put everything and ruin the film. So that...

Balance is the key. So sound is also very, very crucial and we take a lot of time. Do you record? What's your process like in sound design? Do you record on set and or do you also add in some foley after the fact? How does it work for you? We record on set and over that, like if necessary, we add foley and, you know, design it. We record the ambient.

sound and know create layers. But you're not pulling from an existing library per se you're recording a lot of it just from original tracks. We prefer recording. Yeah cool nice. So the film is done. When did you finish this film? When did you like actually like color correct it? It's all locked up ready to go. Was this very recent or what? Yeah very recent. Does it feel like a sense of relief for you or are you just kind of like eh whatever? No it's a it's definitely it's a relief.

You have to forcefully stop working on the film. How do you move on? Well, you haven't moved on yet because you haven't premiered it, of course, but like you've made other films before this. Like talk about the kind of weird thing that is like whenever you're finally done with this movie, all this work that it took. And at the end of the day, it all ends in just a little on a little hard drive. All of your work on a little hard drive or a file, a folder on your computer.

Just talk about what that's like for you. Are you okay moving on? Is it just kind of like an easy thing for you or does it take you a moment? No, but we don't have any option other than moving on. It's the rule of the game. But it's difficult. It's not that easy. But for me, whenever I lock the edit, I start detaching myself from the...

You you work on the film, you do all the things and know, premiere, screening, this and that. But in back of your mind, you know that your work is done here. And now you have to leave it. Time for the next one. Yeah. So how are you with premieres? Do get very excited? you excited? Are you nervous? Or do you just kind of keep an even-kill cool thing?

Some filmmakers get really sweaty and anxious when it comes to premiering a film. How are you? I'm pretty much okay. I never felt that. You are a chill dude. Just chilling. You can do anything about it. People like it or hate it, whatever it is. It's there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a great way to look at it.

You know, a strange thing is like, after my debut film, I watched it, know, was screening recently. I really felt like, did I made this film? Like, you know, you know how you shoot it and everything you remember, but there's a strange feeling of, you know, watching it as a viewer. It's almost like it's not your film. Is that what you mean? Sometimes where somebody else made it? Yeah, yeah. It's so weird.

That happened to me recently. I was showing somebody this documentary that I did and it was good. I was like, is this mine? I would love to watch your films. send me. thank you. We made this one film called Bellevue. You know, it's the first feature doc that I made. It has such a recipe of things. It's a very simple, practical film of like a great and great protagonist. It's a clear conflict. It's a little hero's journey. You know what mean? There's nothing complicated about it.

but it's just smooth, it's 77 minutes, it's nice and tight. Bellevue, like this film where it's like, did I make this? And of course it wasn't just me that made it, I had some help, I had a little bit of editing help and all this, but you do detach and then you circle back after you've long forgotten about the movie and it's like, it is like that, it is like that. And it's always good whenever you're pleased with the viewing experience.

But I wonder like all these filmmakers in the studio time like Kurosawa or anyone like making 100 films. I am sure they wouldn't remember what is their 47th film. I always think about Hitchcock, know, like, didn't he make like 20 films before he made The Lodger, before he made like his like big first big one? There's something so admirable about even what you mentioned early on, which is just doing it.

and not thinking about it too much, truly. And I feel like I got to a point with my last film where I just took it all off a pedestal. had it too much, the filmmaking thing, I had it too much on a pedestal. I value every bit of it in my films, but also I'm not as precious with it all. Meaning there's not as much of a pressurized kind of thing. Like it doesn't matter as much. As long as I know I'm doing as much as I can do in satisfying my curiosities and my needs as a viewer.

then I'll be okay. And it seems to work out, you know, as opposed to trying to, you know, I don't know, worry about how people are gonna receive it or how they see you as a filmmaker or all this stuff, you know, it's really just a waste of time for sure. I'm very excited for my latest doc. I should be getting the cut back tonight actually. I've been filming it for three years. I've been editing it and then I sent it to my good friend, good collaborator who just cut it down from two and a half hours to 95 minutes.

about this private investigator I've been following around in LA and it's funny. It's fun. It's fun. So when it's ready, I'll send it to you if you want to check it out. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Distribution. Do you already have distribution lined up? Do you have any or any potential distribution? We have a sales agent like Loco Films from Paris is handling it. Hopefully. Yeah. Gotcha. In Berlin we'll get something.

And so, yeah, and Berlin is a great market too, right? It's one of those rare festivals where it's a great quality film festival, but it's also a film market, which helps with sales. Yeah. You get into Berlin, you're going to have people saying, probably in line a little bit wanting to take your film, would think. Crime films. I love crime films. This is a crime film. What is your approach to crime films when you create one? Is there anything specific or?

Do you just try not to be too ⁓ structured or too formulaic? What is it for you? I don't try to be very structured. you know, people are saying it's a crime film. I don't approach it as a crime film. For me, it's a human story. It's a drama. There is an element of crime. OK, OK, OK. That's just something that they can kind of tag it with, I guess, and categorize it. Yeah. OK, sure, sure, sure, sure. Got you.

And then, okay, runtime, 87 minutes. Love that. What dictated that? Was it just that that's what the story ended up being was around that time length? Was it ever longer than that? So, know, it was like, as I told you, like we never had a scene which we haven't used. this film was meant to be around 90 minutes. So that was what we imagined. But my thing was like, you know, the film shouldn't feel very short also.

It is runtime. It must have, you know, give that experience of, you know, seeing something. And the thing about runtime is just a kind of a number, but like sometimes short movies can feel long as hell and sometimes long movies can feel short. So I feel you on that. It just needs to be what it feels like it needs to be. Last question for you. What would you tell your younger filmmaking self, if you could go back in time right now, you've learned so far, what would you tell your young filmmaking self? Nothing like just make films.

Just keep on making films. You heard it here first, folks. Just make films. Just keep it simple.