E56 • The More Specific, The More Universal • Madeline Gavin, dir. of ‘Beyond Utopia’ now on Hulu following the Sundance Audience Award

In this first episode of Season 2, documentarian Madeline Gavin joins Past Present Feature to discuss the making of "Beyond Utopia", her gripping BAFTA and Emmy-nominated film about North Korean defectors. She reflects on the emotional intensity of telling stories under high-stakes conditions and the delicate trust required between filmmaker and subject. From the invisible hand of editing to the indivisibility of sound and image, Madeline shares insights into her creative process, drawing inspiration from powerful works like "Collectiv" and exploring how specificity in storytelling can lead to universal resonance. 

This marks the first episode of Season 2, where we’re mixing things up - continuing to speak with filmmakers about their latest work and past inspirations, while also expanding the conversation to include deep dives into older films and voices behind the scenes, like curators and festival programmers who play a crucial role in a film’s success.

Listen to all episodes on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and more, as well as at www.pastpresentfeature.com. Like, subscribe, and follow us on our socials @pastpresentfeature

Chapters

• 0:01 Past Present Feature, Hosted by Marcus Mizelle
• 0:20 Season 2!
• 0:43 Introducing Madeline Gavin, dir. of ‘Beyond Utopia’ now on Hulu following the Sundance Audience Award
• 1:29 Sponsored by Valerion Projectors
• 2:10 Madeline Gavin, dir. of ‘Beyond Utopia’ now on Hulu following the Sundance Audience Award

Transcript

Marcus Mizelle (00:03)

Welcome to the Past Present Feature podcast. All right, and we are live with season two of Past Present Feature. It's been a whole year. I can't believe it. We're gonna mix things up a little bit this year. We're gonna continue to speak with filmmakers about their latest work and past inspirations. We're also gonna expand the conversation to include deep dives into older films and voices behind the scenes, like curators and festival programmers who play a crucial role in a film's success.

In this episode, documentarian Madeline Gavin joins past-present feature for Season 2, Episode 1 to discuss the making of Beyond Utopia, her gripping film about North Korean defectors, which was nominated for many things including BAFTA's, Emmy's I believe, Oscar shortlist, Nell on Hulu, totally worth watching, it's so good. She reflects on the emotional intensity of telling stories under high-stakes conditions and the delicate trust required between filmmaker and subject. From the invisible hand of editing,

to the indivisibility of sound and image. Madeline shares insights into her creative process, drawing inspiration from powerful works like Collective, which is one of my favorite documentaries, and exploring how specificity and storytelling can lead to universal resonance. All right, season two. Let's roll it. This podcast is brought to you by Valerian Projectors, featuring the Valerian Vision Master Pro 2, a filmmaker and film lover's dream.

This outstanding 4K HDR tri-laser projector boasts 3000 ISO lumens, Rec. 2020 color, and an impressive 15,000 to one contrast ratio. That gives you those deep, rich blacks in every frame. That's what I as a filmmaker care about the most. With IMAX and Dolby Vision compatibility, Google OS, Active 3D, filmmaker mode, the list of impressive specs is endless. It delivers an exceptional cinematic experience when viewing the films of our podcast guests. Head over to valerian.com to get yours today.

That's V-A-L-E-R-I-O-N dot com. So your doc, Beyond Utopia. There's a Romanian documentary called Collective. That's my, that is the documentary that I always bring up when people ask me about the documentaries that are my favorite doc. ⁓ well look at that. ⁓ absolute Collective, unbelievable film. They remind me of each other, your Beyond Utopia and Collective where it's like, it's just cinematic.

kind of structure and the editing and it was like, you just don't really think about, there's no kind of looking at the camera. I know you're an editor like also, right? Like on a bigger films and stuff. I definitely- And on small films. I do a lot of small films. Your film was like so engaging and intense. I mean, the threats were real. Like this is a documentary about people trying to escape from North Korea, right? Defects from North Korea and-

I ever seeing anything beyond behind that curtain before before your doc. felt your doc is a definitive kind of fullback of the curtain. Madeline Gavin's Beyond Utopia charts two attempts at defection from North Korea and the underground network that provides vital help. So let me ask you this. How did this project begin? It began the producers on the project had gotten the rights to Hyeon-Soo Lee's memoir, which is called The Girl with Seven Names, which

was about her escape from North Korea back in the late 90s. And they came to me with that. And initially I was, know, I didn't know why they came to me initially, you know. And they had seen another documentary that I directed and also I had worked with them as an editor on two films. But obviously the subject matter, I felt like, well,

wouldn't you want to go to a Korean director? And I really didn't know much about North Korea. I didn't know any more than most of my friends knew at the time. ⁓ But they were really, they really wanted me to take a hard look at it. And so they encouraged me to read the memoir, which I did, which was, you know, really compelling and started to open up this world. And then they gave me huge breadth of time.

to do research and basically what happened was the more research I did the more obsessed I became. ⁓ There's a book ⁓ by Barbara Demick called Nothing to Envy which was one of the, if you haven't read it, you should. It's amazing. She's an incredible writer, period. But ⁓ that really began to crack open North Korea from the perspective of North Koreans themselves. ⁓ I read everything I could get my hands on and watched everything I could get my hands on and I

started just really becoming obsessed. did a deep dive into the internet, you know, using VPNs. was searching as if I were in different countries, searching in different languages, and I started uncovering just the most unbelievable stuff. And I got onto some, you North Korean websites where I was seeing some of the propaganda right out of North Korea. And I found, ⁓ you know, this hidden camera footage.

of that people inside North Korea, you know, were shooting, risking their lives to shoot through holes in paper bags and through the pockets of their coats and stuff to get the truth of their country out because obviously, yeah, so crazy. And because the regime, you know, tightly controls, I mean, information is for them one of the biggest threats, getting information out, getting information in is a huge threat, especially for Kim Jong-un, even more than his father and grandfather.

And I just became obsessed, I, and at a certain point, I remember I woke up one morning and I kind of saw the elements that could maybe crack this open because one of the main things that I saw was how little we knew and saw of what was really going on other than this deep dive that I did.

But at the time, I also knew that I didn't want to do recreations and Hyeon-Soo had defected in the late 90s. so it was, you know, but my producers were willing to go down this road to kind of try to create something that really cracked this open, that was experiential. And for a while I was shooting with Hyeon-Soo in South Korea, shooting a present tense

It was a different kind of thriller. And I have amazing footage on this, which should still be used. Oh, wow. Yeah. It was an urban, you know, heart of Seoul, South Korea thriller about what it's like to be at the time, the most high profile defector out of North Korea. She was also the most outspoken, had been targeted by the Kim regime. So lived under the threat of that. you know, enormously.

you know, successful, beautiful, intelligent, but also one of the most traumatized people I've ever met. So was kind of, it was a psychological thriller. was a political thriller. And, but Hyeon-Soo knew that I also wanted, and so that was present tense. That was present tense in that it was her life today, you know, in South Korea. But she knew that I also wanted in my dreams to fly.

to, and it did feel like a dream, dream, to follow an attempt to escape out of North Korea. And she and I- man, how, you know, if you could do it, wow, right? that's- Yeah. Oof. I mean, it was so crazy, but it just felt like I just have to keep my nose to the grindstone on this and find it. And Yanceo was totally on board and- Real quick, sorry to cut you off. Can we say, can we let them know, let people know, like, so Yanceo, is that the correct-

Wait a second. And can just say who that is? Yeah. So, Fiancio Lee, she wrote The Girl with Seven Names, which is a memoir of her escape in the late nineties. And she then became, you she had a Ted talk. She after her book came out, she was all over the press. And she has been targeted.

by the regime, she's been offered bodyguards inside South Korea several times. ⁓ And she's actually kind of moved and she's still in that space, but she has also moved on to try to find a life outside of that because she experienced so much trauma. And this is a whole nother story, but with her escape and everything that came after that, because she never actually meant

to escape. was a young girl. we don't really get much into it really. I mean, we see it a little bit in the film, right? But we don't. Yeah, so we don't. So that's so what happened was so Hianci and I were working to try to find a way to document an attempted escape. And we actually went down this one road and we ended up for security reasons having to stop. But I read about Pastor Kim and

I was like, okay, I have to meet this guy. And I contacted him. And ⁓ basically many months ⁓ went by where Pastor Kim and I were getting to know each other. He didn't know me. He had been approached by media outlets in the past, hadn't had the best experience. ⁓

you know, I didn't know him either. And so was many months of us getting to know each other. And at a certain point, we found that we really not only trusted each other, but really wanted to do the same thing and wanted to kind of crack this open in the same way to really give voice or attempt to give voice to North Koreans because they're not in the media. Their voices aren't in the media. It's, you know, it's Kim Jong Un's ⁓

basically the media that comes out of North Korea for the most part is exactly what Kim Jong Un wants it to be, right? Yeah. So, yeah, so, so basically he and I at a certain point decided that I was going to attempt not knowing what would happen to follow the next two escapes that contacted him. ⁓ And, you know, not knowing what was going to happen and the two

stories that we follow in the film, So-Yen Lee and the Roe family are the next two escapes. They're the only ones that we followed. And I mean, it gets crazier from there because...

⁓ Well, obviously, for instance, with the Ro family, they fled across the river from North Korea into China for their lives because they knew their lives were going to be over if they stayed in North Korea. And they knew the way out was through Changbai Mountain. But like most North Koreans, they didn't really know what the geography was. They didn't really know.

where they go from there, they just knew they had to get out. Well, for me, for a viewer and for like, you know, an American who doesn't know much about the geography at all, you know, it was so fascinating. Like that was that was just the beginning of the long journey. Just understanding the breakdown of like how what they had to do first and foremost. And then they had to go all the way from what China all the way down to to Laos, Thailand. Yeah. Is that correct? Yeah. And then they have to ship over. I think I'm missing something. No, that's right. I mean, there's there's

several different possible routes and depending on what's happening geopolitically those routes change. The Underground Railroad is always attuned to what's going on and where the security checks are, et cetera. But in this case, yeah, they went through China, which is in and of itself a huge journey and China is very hostile to North Korean defectors because they're so aligned with the regime. ⁓ They went from China into Vietnam and then into Laos and then into Thailand. ⁓

But when they crossed over, they're coming from a culture that doesn't know anything about documentary film. They couldn't possibly have even conceived of what that would be or what that would mean. so the Underground Railroad does shoot some of the work they do with defectors, never to the extent that we did, but they'll shoot some stuff.

on Changbai Mountain. And one of the reasons for that is they send that footage into the North to try to educate North Koreans on what it would look like if you were going to defect and a little bit about the geography, cetera. So, Sorry, I just have seven thoughts and I'm trying to, it's so fascinating. I rambling on too much? No, no, no, no, no, no, this is so good. But it's just one of those things where I have a-

One question I don't want to forget to ask. First of all, did you, what do you think led to the pastor trusting you to allow you to come on and, you know, collaborate with him? Yeah, I mean, he speaks about this a lot. I don't know. mean, it

I mean, he just talks about getting to know me and, know, I mean, it sounds so self-serving, didn't like, but basically, I mean, it was, it was many months before we saw on both sides. is big part of the documentary process, right? Absolutely. To gain trust. And, and that's the other thing is, you know, so, I mean, he, he came to know me.

And through that, he came to trust me and vice versa, you know, because there, there's actually a pastor who I had spoken to briefly before I met Pastor Kim. And there was something that just did not feel right with this person. And I didn't want to pursue that route. So it was, you also a process of us getting to know You had an initial ⁓ subject that you didn't have to abandon.

Yeah, right. We weren't shooting with him very long. We only shot with him a couple of days. But I and my producers. So it wasn't it wasn't we didn't want to go down the road with him. We didn't. And Pastor Kim was entirely different. So we had, you know, many months, both of us, him for me, me for him to really get to know each other and to feel really confident.

When we patient, I guess, if you're you if you're you in that situation to be patient to build the relationship, I guess. Yeah. Which is, mean, yeah. You have no documentary if you don't have the access. Yeah. OK. Yeah. Yeah. And there was no choice but to be because, you know, both sides want to if we're going to go in with him, we need to 100 percent trust him and vice versa from his side. And yeah. But with this, we also knew that.

with, for instance, with the Ro family, we could not ask for or even accept consent. So in other words, we had to go into this knowing that there was a good chance that anything that was documented, we would never be able to use. And that was crazy to have those conversations with my producers and then with our financiers. But ultimately, everybody

realized the only way to even attempt to make a film like this was to take that risk that, you know, ultimately when God willing the family made it to, they could have easily decided they didn't want to want to be a part of this. And so the initial shooting that we were allowed to do was given with the consent of the other family members of the Ro family who had already defected to South Korea, but there was no consent to ever use any

not even a frame in the How does that consent process work in this situation where it's like just a handshake deal type thing? Is it on paper? I the only way to really accept full, to even get and accept full consent is for the subjects to know exactly what they're consenting to. And so that meant a whole sort of mind bend of an entirely different society culture again.

The whole concept of a documentary, mean, in North Korea, yes, the regime puts out videos about Kim Jong-un and all that, but that is not documentary. So even the concept of a documentary, they had to be able to grapple with that before they could ever really give consent. And one thing that's really interesting actually is Soyeon Lee, the mother, and the Roh family have now made their own short documentary.

Yeah, since Beyond Utopia came out, they've made like a kind of a follow up this 30 minute piece about where they are today. Like integrated into the new world and all this. and what they're doing and Soyeon, know, in terms of what's going on with her son and her fight still to try to find a way to first of all, know exactly where he is and second of all, to hopefully. Yeah.

preserve his life. I have a question real quick. Okay. Were you ever, and I would imagine you were, were you ever overwhelmed in this process? I mean, what was that like? Because this is a huge topic, a gigantic, massive, I guess, backdrop topic, whatever, you know, the whole world is, is curious and knows about, know, well, you know, has a view on North Korea and how, you know, it's propaganda, and it's just this enclosed society. I mean,

When you were when you were making it, you're the one that's you're the one that is like, you know, making the documentary and this chance of being able to, you know, pull the curtain back like. Were you ever kind of do you ever have to take a breath during the process and just like, I don't know, were you worried for your own safety? What was it like? Yeah, all of the above. mean, it was overwhelming on so many levels. mean, emotionally overwhelming, especially

with Soyeon, which I can get into ⁓ after this. and then just the, yeah, the weight of telling this, because it wasn't just about telling the story. There was a certain amount of grounding that needed to be done because, you know, this wasn't just people.

know, sort of anonymous people fleeing from some anonymous country. It was very specific. It was people from a very specific country who were fleeing for very specific reasons. so even kind of figuring out, which I still, you know, think, I could have done this differently. should have done that too. But, you know, even figuring out like how much context to give or, you know, just to ground people.

not getting into Kim Jong Un too much. He's just a backdrop, but it was important to know a little bit about his brutality because without that, why are these people fleeing? Or like you said about the geography, the way that kind of unraveling the geography in a way that didn't feel totally informational. know what Yes, totally. You did a great job of laying that out, then of course, you know, representing it visually. And yeah, that is the thing too. It's like you don't ever want to be

You want to give the exposition, but you don't want to say, hey, here's some exposition or here's some information. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's like, yeah. The way that that is unveiled or the onion is unpeeled in terms of a slight of hand. There's a river and it's like there's a river and this is North Korea and this is China. Then second, what happens when you go over then? There's this Changba Mountain and then the whole geography and then explaining why they have to go to these countries. But

Yeah, doing it in a way that felt organic and, and, you know, I always say, I mean, exposition, it's like, if audiences want the information, it's doesn't feel like exposition, but if it's just handed to them, it's just, you know, and of course, Pastor Kim was, you know, such an enormous help in that because he just, he's a talker and he, you know, very charming. mean, yeah. And he was showing me geography. was telling, you know, so

But yes, figuring out all of that, that was a huge responsibility. But it was so overwhelming in so many ways. I mean, the whole kind of clash of cultures when we were getting to know the Rowe family, given what they've been told about Americans. And there was a whole dialectic with grandma.

You know, only tiny piece of it's in the film is so much more. Yeah. Yeah. Whenever she's like still toward the end, I mean, not to give anything away, but you know, it's but just how she is still praising Kim Jong. Yeah. You know, because that's just all she knows. And it's just like it's this Plato's cave thing. Right. It's this whole thing of like the in the made that she's still in the matrix or whatever. This is the reality. She doesn't know anything else. It's so fascinating. Yeah.

And she, for more than 80 years, this was her reality. She was fervent about it. the footage that we have and kind of the way in which she and I and my southern producer, Rachel, was with me on that trip when we were in Southeast Asia, mean, just the way that grandma would kind of move toward us in terms of warmth and then push away.

It was just so fascinating to watch the whole sort of evolution of our relationship. And ultimately we became incredibly close. But it was, and that was unbelievable because, you know, you don't, most people who meet defectors, right from North Korea, they're meeting them after they've been integrated into, let's say South Korean society or something. And they have already kind of absorbed a little bit of a different culture than their own.

But with us, we were meeting them so soon after they left North Korea that I don't think that's ever been done before. I mean, I know it's never been done before like that. it was just such an extraordinary experience. Yeah, I mean, even just like a basic story structure of like the hero's journey, for example, you know, where a character, say, goes into or comes out of the cave or whatever. mean, this, you know, the new world, if you will, or, you know.

It's just such a massive version of that. It's like what, you the world we live in now. It's just, it's really crazy. Let me ask you this. So what, ⁓ what was like the most overwhelming or like the, you know, the biggest, scariest, I don't know what word I want to use here. Let's stay, let's stick with overwhelming. What was the most overwhelming moment that you can remember? What comes to mind? I mean, there's so many. ⁓

Well, when Soyeon's son was taken back to North Korea was, and that is sadly the way more common story than the real Right, right, right. And I think it was important that you showed that, sorry to cut you off. I think it was important that you showed that because you saw the, was at stake, you know, even though maybe your main subjects didn't experience that, but this other one did. And it's just, yeah, man, it's brutal. I mean, you couldn't get across the river, right?

Or he did, he got across the river and then he got picked up. He got across the river and what happened was the North Korean ⁓ brokers were taking him over the river. And then in China, he was supposed to meet the Underground Railroad, but the North Korean brokers, and probably for money, unbeknownst to him, turned him into the Chinese police. And I'm sure they got some money for it. And so he'd actually never even

met up with the underground. it was, and the other thing that happened was they brought him over early. So they didn't, the North Korean brokers, and maybe this was on purpose, I mean, we'll never know, but they brought him over a day before they were supposed to. And so maybe it was planned that way so that they could just hand him over to the police. this kind of thing happens because also people inside North Korea are so desperate for food, for money. mean, they, again,

These brokers probably got some money out of the Chinese police. Where is he now, you think? mean, is he still on the camp or did he forget what happened? Or did you say it in the doc? Well, in the doc, so we were following this and it's so hard to get accurate information out of North Korea. were suiting on this with Soyeon. mean, there's so much more again than what was fit into a film. ⁓

At the point that the film ends, is when Soyeon found out that he was in a gulag and that it was not a gulag that he was going to be getting out of. Now, since then, ⁓ the most recent information that we have is actually that he has been moved. He is still alive and he has been moved to a, I mean, all the prisons there are horrific.

but a slightly less horrific person and that he's alive.

You know, but I mean, for Soyeon, so this is a whole nother thing is Soyeon gave her consent to be in the film, but when her son was taken, you she had lived in South Korea, she knew what this film was, but when her son was taken into the North, you know, we said to her, we don't want you to make a decision if you want to be in this film until the last minute.

because who knew what we were gonna find out, what she was gonna find out, maybe she was gonna find out something that would make her not wanna be in the film. And so in the end, because I was also editing it, I was editing two versions of the film. So I edited one version without Soyeon, just in case she decided not to be in, and then one version with Soyeon. Because by then the Ro family had given their consent, they were living in South Korea, had given, so that was for sure.

So I ended up editing two different versions. then Soyeon, shortly before we actually went into final post before Sundance, Soyeon said, no, I want to be in this film. And in fact... So brave, I would think. Yeah. So brave. what she's, she's been traveling with this film ever since, she and Pastor Kim, but she's been all over the world with this film. She is advocating for her son.

for her, you know, this, film and then the short film that she and the Roe family also made and then speaking out before the UN and all sorts of other government organizations and NGOs about her son is actually what's keeping her ceiling connected to him. Yeah, it's an opportunity to do something to advance, progress past it. Was there ever a moment when you...

You feel did you ever feel ⁓ like you you were physically you were actually in. I don't know threatened or like ⁓ in harm's way out even though you're not inside North Korea. I was there ever any sort of like signs of like, you know, I don't know, like or have you have you sense like felt because they're they're they're North Korea's big thing is to like keep, you know, their version of the truth maintained. Right. So, I mean, surely out of this documentary. And don't like it.

Yeah, he's has seen the documentary. Yeah, we did. We did have. I know it's crazy. We did definitely have that. And, you know, we had a lot of consultants in the NGO world, in the activism world and political world. So we were consulting on a regular basis. But at a certain point, I mean, we knew that. Of course, we were taking risks and.

But we also felt at a certain point that we kind of, there was no going back. mean, you know, we weren't going to not continue making this film. And so, yes, it was scary. And when we were in Southeast Asia, we actually saw, you know, North Korean soldiers. mean, there's a lot of North Koreans. They were actually training military inside Laos. you know, when we were traveling, we often had to take

you know, kind of back roads and different routes and, know, because not only did we not want to encounter anyone, but we also didn't want to lead anyone to the safe houses. And, and by the way, these safe houses, because that was the other thing is I was always saying to Pastor Kim, can we really show the safe house? But these safe houses are constantly changing. And they're not connected to the people who own them. So they're

there's, there, it's kind of a liquid system. that's why in the film we were able to show them, but we certainly didn't want anyone to, any North Koreans to find them safe houses. Yeah. Theoretical situation. Just curious, like, let's just say that North Korean soldiers did stop y'all ⁓ in Laos or wherever. What could happen to you as an American filmmaker? I what would that even look like? Any idea?

It depends on who, you know, it depends on any number of things. I'm sure we would have gone into jail in Laos and I don't know what would have happened in terms of North Koreans. In terms of the Ro family, ⁓ if they were found, if they were found in China, they would be back to the North immediately. In terms of Laos and Vietnam, there's a good chance they'd be taken back to the North. There's a slight chance they wouldn't.

had had an experience where she and two family members who she helped rescue before I met her had been arrested and her two family members had been arrested in Laos and they could easily have been taken back to the North. weren't. Pastor Kim has been since before we met him, you know, he had also been targeted by the North Korean regime and, you know, he

stopped going into China at a certain point because he was told that if he ever went to China again, he would he could be kidnapped to North Korea. You know, from an overview, it's so crazy from an overview standpoint as far as stories concerned, like me as a viewer. think what's so powerful about this documentary more than most is that the stakes are about as high as they can possibly be. I it's very much that. ⁓ do you know Kim Jong Un watched the documentary? Through ⁓

Intel with all of our consultants in these various, uh, in these various worlds. That's weird and why I know it is very, it's very strange. name up there, you know, it's just like, what? I know. I don't, I don't like that. mean, one thing is, but one thing is, know, and this is something that also our consultants were giving us some assurance on or some reassurance on is the film is not about

Kim Jong-un, right? It's about North Koreans. He is the backdrop. The Kim regime is the backdrop because without the Kim regime behaving as they do, people wouldn't need to flee North Korea. ⁓ But what we say about Kim Jong-un is, you know, basically he's a brutal dictator. And these are things that are said on the news. I mean, they don't necessarily go into the detail that we do in terms of exactly how he's a brutal dictator, but ⁓

According to our consultants, that depiction does not bother him that much. mean, obviously, he'd rather the film not be out there. He'd rather all the information about North Korea not be out there. He'd rather defectors not be out there. Tim Joganda has done a huge push to end defections because he does see defectors as a form of information to get

the truth of the country out, is the main thing he doesn't want out there. Likewise, he doesn't want the truth of the outside world coming inside. But for instance, with the the film, what's it called? The interview, I think it is. Did you ever see that? Oh, yeah, I remember that. So that's a big deal. I mean, do you think let me ask you this. Do you think the Sony hack had anything to do with that? Yeah. Well, North Korea did have.

Sony. Wow. Yeah, but a pair of so but according to, know, our Intel, what really bothered him about that film was the fact that he was mocked. know, being called a brutal dictator is one thing, him being mocked and ridiculed is absolutely untenable for him partially because if any if Frisill, I can't stand it period, but.

if any North Korean sees that, know, the mythology of the Kim regime is a bubble that the Kim regime does not want popped, you know, they want that mythology sustained. And so people inside North Korea seeing him lampooned and mocked and is utterly unacceptable to the Kim regime. That's his biggest fear. so, yeah, they did have that. And so there was a lot of concern with us about that as well, that our emails about

every you know them yes we had a lot of anxiety but in a certain point it was like we were just in it so deep that we couldn't. You know if we focus too much on that we would have just been. You're you're plenty to be distracted by I'm sure right you're you're so engaged I would think and all that yeah yeah. Yeah I mean the mind blown by what was happening and then also to be emotionally with so young and such an intense.

I guess it's the difference between like watching a game and being in the game in a way where you're just focused on, know, what you have to do next. Yeah. So when you're in that situation, you know, it's like they say the only way out is through. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Marcus Aurelius. Well, OK. So wait a minute. The story, the story structure, you know, all that. Like, where did how did that start to take shape?

I mean, I'm sure you had many different versions and you even said you were editing different timelines and you were, you know, switching subjects as needed. But like, ⁓ how did it come together? You're an editor, you know, also, and like, how do you, how did you and how do you usually kind of structure a documentary? When you start filming, do you go in there? Did you already kind of have an idea of potential, you know, structures or what was it? What did it look like for this? Well, so for this, and I want to go back to Hiancil for a second because- Sure.

Hiancio, know, again, I'd been shooting with her, this psychological thriller, this urban thriller inside Seoul. ⁓ I really wanted that to be a part of the film. so, you know, my thinking had been, okay, I'd been shooting this thriller, was psychological, but also very intimate thriller, but it was scary in a whole different way, right? And...

and compelling in a whole different way, but had suspense as well. And I really wanted that to be a part of it. So the idea was, okay, now I've met Pastor Kim, I'm gonna follow these two stories, who knows what will happen? I you often fall storylines in documentary and some of them don't, a lot of stuff gets left on the cutting room floor or whatever. And so initially I was,

always, know, Hiancio's story was going to be a part of the film. And then as these two stories of Pastor Kim started developing, I started to feel intuitively just as an editor, storyteller, whatever, my God, this is how, how are we going to fit everything in here? And on top of that, Hiancio has a very, her story had a very different energy to it. And so I just instinctively,

at a certain point felt, okay, this is not, I'm not gonna be able to get everything into a feature. And so at one point we actually went down the road of a series and I started to cut some episodes of the series that did involve Hianso because with her, the different energy of hers also, like her storyline needed a certain amount of space around it to even be felt. And if it was...

up against this other thing, like it was sort of undercutting her and then undercutting them. so. So decision time, like really. Yeah. So as a series, it was working. But then at a certain point, my producers and I were, okay, are we doing this as a series? Are we doing this as a feature? Because we were doing it independently. We weren't with a streamer. Yeah. And we decided we have to do this first as a feature. And so when I was cutting,

two versions because I didn't know what was going to happen with Soyeon. that's that. know, so Hyeon-Soo was perfect was in the end when it ended up being that Hyeon-Soo is in the film, but she's really kind of a voice of North Korea and her story is barely told and barely explored. she's like this candle. She is this light. This like, that's my, that was my takeaway where it's like, my God, I look at this person who is like, who did make it, you know, and seems to be.

very alive because of it, not just physically, but actually emotionally, she seems very, you can see the difference in this made based on changing her location and her situation. ⁓ 100%. Like, Hyunsio was totally on board with that, the other part of her story not being told. But that said, I have said to her many times, we have this other film there, and we actually do. It kind of builds on it.

you know, because it's all in Seoul. It's all in South Korea, basically. And it's got a different kind of, I think I said, thriller-esque. Yeah, I was going to ask you, thriller-esque. Like, what makes it a thriller? And I love, I love, love, love nothing more, I think, than like taking these cinematic and, you know, I see it in the cinematic story structures or genre, even just genre, know, genres and putting them into documentary.

where it's these real, and that's what I've been trying to do. It's just such an exciting concept. It's such a great thing. I've been filming this private investigator in LA for three and a half years, and I'm just trying to treat it like a detective film, a memoir detective. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, but so it's just such a cool thing, a combo of taking these cinematic genres and putting them into the documentary of real life people. Anyways, thriller. How is it a thriller? You mean the Hiancio one? Yes.

I mean, don't want to tell you too much in case, it's a thriller. First of all, it's a psychological thriller largely. mean, it is also a thriller in the sense that she has been targeted by the regime. And that is something that we do deal with in the film, in the footage. But also it's a psychological thriller in the sense that it's kind of an unpeeling of the layers of what

she went through the trauma and the trauma and it's it's an unveiling. It's an unveiling. But so it's an it's a it's a and it's got the danger component of actually the reality of what her life has been like in inside ⁓ inside soul.

Because she has to be a threat to North Korea, right? Even now, where she's like this living example, public living example. Yeah, that's why have to look over her shoulder constantly? I guess she does. mean, that's something we... Yeah, that's something that we dealt with and shot in the film Sounds very interesting. Yeah, it's really interesting. She's now moved outside of this, though. She's, like I said, she... It's really interesting because she... ⁓ She's... She is still...

doing work in this space. I she is still speaking out against the regime, but she also has moved away from it. And she's trying to have a more sort of conventional life outside of that, because she was literally talking about North Korea every day for years. And it was just traumatizing her over and over and over and over again. And so she had to get some space from it. But

But yeah, no, that film is actually really, and it actually would be a good compliment to be on Utopia because it is, the tone of it is so different and it is so urban. And it has a different kind of danger. I would love to see. Yeah, it's pretty amazing. It's life, yeah. So where are you at with that? What's the status? It's on the back burner. mean, every so often I bring it up to my producer, you know.

and to Hiancio, now we have to do something with that. it's, I actually think it may be coming around to a place where we can, because there was also a point where we also all had to step back a bit because it was such an intense journey. But I actually think it is coming to a point. I'm glad we're talking about it now because I would love to dig back in. And I have a lot of cuts because I was, you know, cutting stuff.

Yeah, around that story line. So I have all those cuts. I'm sure your heart is deep in it feel like you need to get it out, I would think. How did you know when you were done with the film? When did you feel like you rounded the corner on being able to see the light at the end of the tunnel? Even now, there's certain things I would change that actually bug me. Do you feel like you're still working on it too sometimes? You forget that you're not still working on a project? You know, there's a few things that I would definitely change, do differently.

Who tell me point them out and then they're not huge deals, but they if I had the ability to reflect in the same way as I do now, I would have just done a few things differently, little things differently. I don't even know how much other people know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's not a thing though, is it? Sometimes. I mean, I'm getting I got this movie back that we made 10 years ago and we're literally re-editing it right now and then just putting it back out. know, it's a comedy, a rom-com, but still it's like I'm going to things that have been bothering me for 10 years. And I'm like, no, we're going to change that right now. We're going to George Lucas this real quick. I mean, I could make these changes pretty damn quickly. But the thing is, it's out there. It's, you these would not take long to do. They're not huge.

But once the licensing rights come back or whatever that looks like, and then you get it back in your possession, if that's the thing, would you then? It's a weird thing to even think about. Maybe. don't even know how that works because my producers deal with that part of it. I really don't even know what the licensing ⁓ timeframes are. You would take a... I would do a few things. It would not take me long at all. And, you know, in my mind would just make it a little bit stronger. But that said, I mean, I'm...

try to the film. It's not like I should be. Yeah, it's not like I have these deep regrets, but there's just certain little things that it's just annoying because they would be so easy to fix. ⁓ my gosh. Is it the result of just like try just the massive amount of like, I guess, work and everything else you had to worry about at the time? mean, yeah, film out on a deadline. There's certain it's a couple of little structural things and just. Yeah, this is part of the process.

Yeah. you lot of, mean, you could say that no film has ever really done done. mean, I guess if, if, if you could finish a kind of a film and then sit there for six months and still not six months later, not want to change a single thing, then Oh my God. is literally what I'm going through right now. That's rare. Right? Yeah. Like the past nine months it's been, Oh, I think I'm almost done. And I watch it with a friend or I watch it myself. I'm like, this is movies terrible. need to keep, I need to keep

making it not terrible, you know, and then it's like, it's it's back and forth, back and forth. But then finally, it's like, when do you I mean, because I'm not on a deadline. mean, I'd like to make these festival deadlines. But it's like, when do you know to like move on? Because then you can start doing too much to I feel like. Yeah. That's for sure. Yeah. I mean, it's and there is a whole dialectic in that. And yes, you do have to could start eating in on itself. You know, you start to.

take the magic out of it or whatever. gracious, yeah. I mean, I've been to a point now where it's just finding the right amount of air, but also finding the right amount of moving along. And it's like, I've been going back and forth. I know what 12 frames on every side of every cut, every side of every cut at this point. So that's when I'm like, maybe it's time to go ahead and wrap this thing up here. Right. If you're at that point, it probably is.

And this is your one about the investigator, the private investigator. Yeah, it landed at 80 minutes. really cool. It's a detective com. It's like literally the project that I've always tried to figure out how to make, because I love detective films. I love detective comedies. I love two handers. We got all that. And they're like real people. And this guy also, but it's not like a reality TV Bravo type vibe. I mean, it can be, but this there's a legitimacy to it as well. And I won't spend, but like I'm going to time myself and give myself 60 seconds.

Basically, it's it's just these, know, when reality, when real life gives you these gifts, these film gods just rain down upon you. It's like, how could I have ever even written this, much less received it, you know, by accident. So I reached out to like 125 Los Angeles private investigators, every single one in LA County, like four years ago, because I literally started it by saying to myself, I want to make a documentary.

about a real life detective and like, let's know their stories out there. Let me find them. So I hit up all of them and filmed a bunch of them and found my guy. Of course he was the first one. And then come to find out like he was the one that, you know, had, he found two trails. He's like a bit of a unknown legend as far as the eighties, late eighties, nineties, where he was like the one that found two trails of blood at the OJ Simpson, Nicole Simpson's house. And to suggest that there were two killers and the judge threw it out.

So I'm like, ooh, bureaucracy could be a bad guy here. What else does he have going on, et cetera, et cetera. Then he's like, do you want to meet my assistant? He's also my roommate. I'm like, ⁓ my God. And then it just busted wide open and it's like, this is a whole other story. I mean, we still got that other stuff, but come to find out his mentors, he has this protege that he lives with, but also come to find out his mentor, all the main PI's mentor was,

This legendary PI named Fred O'Tash who they based Chinatown off of LA confidential off of, et cetera, et So this Fred O'Tash guy also, it's a known fact that he wired, he had Marilyn Monroe's house, condo wire, whatever wire tapped and heard her. He claimed to have heard her get murdered. and all the little things that come along with that, that we've already heard. And so

Here's where it gets interesting. And I'm sorry, I'm going on about this, but I'm very, very excited. It's in. basically, um, this is where it takes the term. It's like, okay, cool. That's fascinating. What net. And then I'm like, well, what happened to Fred is Fred still alive. And he says, well, uh, October, 1992, basically Paul met Fred because they were neighbors. They shared a courtyard in, in West Hollywood and this park, this condom, and they literally looked right into each other's apartments.

And that's how they met. so 1992, I'm a little bit, I'm excited just even talking about the day before Fred was going to take Paul along with him to the John Rivers show to talk about the old detective and the new detective, but also Fred was going to talk about his new book that he was coming out with called Maryland, the Kennedys and me. The night before that happened, Paul at three o'clock in the morning woke up to three gunshots coming from across the patio.

⁓ my God. And so the detective is the witness, you know what I mean? And it's like, holy shit. also the mentor, ⁓ the main character is trying to search for the murderer, the truth of his mentor's, PI mentor's death with the help of his protege PI and training. Wow. So yeah, so that's what I've been doing. it's like. This sounds incredible. I'm to get, I'm trying to not mess it up here, you know, and it's good and I feel really solid, but.

I'm at a point now where like trying to weave, this goes back to our exposition topic where it's like trying to plot. I'm trying to weave the casework with the funny, with the character and the funny. And the funny is always on top. It's never the priority. And I think I've done it well. And it's been just this whole back and forth of like, just this balance. Cause casework can get really boring as exciting as this log line or synopsis is. It's like.

it can get law, you people don't want to see it just casework, casework, casework, casework. Right. There's a lot going on. think it's I think it's really great. And it sounds absolutely fascinating. Really. And it's like similar to beyond utopia, I think, where it's like the truth is the enemy to these people. Right. And these systems in place are designed to keep the truth under, you know, under wraps. And you have this detective whose job is to, you know, find the truth. That's his job.

And so I'm like, bureaucracy is the bad guy here. We can we can we can make that work. And even though, you know, they go through this process of finding some success, but then they run into constantly just this red tape, these systems in place, they'll keep records for 10 years. Nobody is going to answer the phone call that the person gave you the number of. And so it's not even about it is about like pursuing that. But I try my best to make it about a situation. You know, it's not about

Who killed Fred O'Tash is about who is Paul Katz, you know, and the memoir of it all as far as who is the future Paul Katz, like the reinvention of Paul Katz. So ⁓ with the help of his, you know, 30 year old, by the way, you have a 30 year old PI, you have a 65 year old PI and you have a 100 year old PI, Fred was still alive. So, ⁓ all about. Fred's book ever come out? The first one did, but the second one did not. wait, hold on, hold on.

I just, I also, my pods went off again, but they're back up. Did his book ever come out? The second one did not, but his first one did back in the day, investigation Hollywood. But it's just so strange because nobody knows who Fred O'Tash is. And what's crazy is he is the guy that they templated, templated, like James Elroy ⁓ bought his life right. I'm pretty sure wrote whatever. It's just like a list of Jake Giddies from Chinatown is based on Fred O'Tash. ⁓ So he is the Hollywood PI that you

that all these characters are based on. Yeah, the iconic, yeah. So anyways, you can tell I'm very excited. Wow, it sounds like, it sounds really interesting. I can't wait to see. Well, thank you for listening. Yes, it's Are you going for Sundance? Like, what are you going for? I think, honestly, I don't know why. I mean, I have an idea why, but I feel like Tiff would be, I feel like Tiff is wonderful. They're all great. Tiff has this big slate and they have kind of a blend of commercial and artistic type stuff. Yeah.

I don't know, just felt like Tiff would be great. And I've talked to Tom Powers, the head programmer. And he's, and I sent it to him. So he's, he's received it. And I've been updating the code as we go. So I've been up, we're finalizing the score right now. The score is very fucking great. It's a very Jet Setty, Lalo Schifrin, Henry Mancini type score. ⁓ So anywho. What's the title? You know, I was calling it.

LAPI initially up until two weeks ago. And I decided to change it to the very generic sounding. And yet I think probably perfect Hollywood PI because it's basically his desire is to be that he wants to be Hollywood. He wants that shine. He wants that legacy like his mentor, Fred had. Literally, Fred was the Hollywood PI that you never heard of. And he's also literally buried behind the Hollywood sign. I mean, it just makes sense. Really? Yes.

Yes. And people, it's Forest Lone. did, the sky was just all Hollywood. Right behind the Hollywood Sun. Right behind it. And where Fred's gravestone is, is literally right behind him. Like there's this drone shot. Yeah, man. So it's, I'm like this, I would be so jealous of this movie if I didn't make it. Yeah. But really, no, this is so cool.

I I stick to landing, that's all. We're almost there, I don't know. And it really evokes, it's going to evoke for everyone all the Raymond Chandler, you know, many, mean, Hollywood MPIs, it's just like, I would love to see it if you send it to me. And I also know, like, if you think you're done, I don't want to stir up the pot. No, I mean, but, know, obviously, if there was something really big or something, or if you end up not going to TIF, or, you know, then

but I would just love to see it. It sounds really, really I appreciate you being interested. think there's no, I'm prioritizing the best film over any sort of festival deadline. So if there's anything where your brain goes, what if did this? It's just, it's a really fun movie. And I feel good about it. It sounds like the force was with you or whatever, because all these different sort of ⁓ alignments. And that's the way I felt about Utopia too.

I could not believe what was happening around us. And yet it was like, I felt like I was standing on the edge of a cliff and like, okay, I'm follow And this is not real. Like this is, it was almost like a breathless experience because it was so insane what was happening and what we were getting. it sounds like your film has that same sort of organic something. It's funny how when you make a film, you can set out for certain things.

certain desires, certain hopes, whatever, you know, like, Ooh, I want to make this kind of movie or I want to make, whatever. And then you start the process and you get all in it. And then you get, and you go down this other path and you circle back to the end of the circle starts closing. And all of a sudden you look, you take a step back and you look at everything that I hoped for, I got and more. is that project for sure. So, yeah. And that was also beyond utopia. Cause that what started out as a pipe dream and just seems such a fantasy, but

And I do think there's something, I I also, I always call it the force, but you know, whatever it is spiritually, do feel there's a way in which I know, I feel in my life ever since high school, you know, when I feel like I'm with the force and when I'm not, like when you're, somehow your decisions are not, you know what I mean? You're like a salmon swimming upstream versus everything feels like it's, and that, and I do think that's absolutely, it's like there's something about, I don't know, a certain,

integrity or rigor of experience or like honestly going into something with your nose to the grindstone, just really digging and that it does kind of, it can just come back around. You're like, oh my God. I'm getting goosebumps even just talking to you about this because it's, it's what I've been discussing with my friends very recently. It's just, you know, it is this, I don't want to sling the word manifestation. I just lost you again. said it's, it's, I was just discussing with.

with my friends about this kind of topic, you know, where I don't want to sling the word manifestation around, but I mean, it's like you put your mind, your intent, there's some realness to that. like, know this, like the intent, getting your intent, right. And then of course, what you said, matching the, the efforts, once you jump in the deep end and make that or jump off the cliff or whatever, you make that commitment. Like all the best stuff comes right after the hard part. feel like, and I talk about all the timeless podcasts, but I think that's an example of that, where it's like, you're not just going to be walking into a

adore all willy-nilly and without having to put something on the table. Once you commit and you have a clarity to it, it seems to be, then you get the gifts from the film gods or the universe or whatever. Exactly. I it's a matter of paying attention, being aware of what's going on. Exactly. There's a consciousness that's, even in your unconscious, it's all pushing for that same thing and then on so many different levels.

there's other forces like, yeah, I mean, I know exactly what you're talking about. I believe it 100%. It's an awareness thing too, where like even wrapping back around a beyond utopia, right? It's like, you only know what you know, but that doesn't mean that there isn't more out there, right? And I think as human beings, just have, we of course have a limited scope, no matter who you are. And there's always more to know. And I think there's things happening all around us at all times. And it's really like our intent,

allows for clarity and awareness after that, think, you know, if you're, if you're trying to open to it. So. Yes, because yeah, our brains are so limited and we're just, I mean, we are so stuck in linear time. There's so many ways in which we cannot comprehend, you know, on so much of what's around us, but somehow with that focus, with that intention, with that, like if there's an honest pursuit and clarity and following the organic sort of, you know,

you know, pursuit of it. And it's like these things that we can't even comprehend because our minds are so limited. They can actually be engaged in the whole process. then, you know, I'm not being very articulate, but... No, I feel it though. No, I feel it. Yeah. So I want to say, and I'll wrap this up, but I wanted to touch briefly on just without even knowing you, I just watching this film and I had seen it beyond Utopia and I had seen,

put it off like six months after it came out, think it was on Hulu or somewhere. Like I watched it and I was blown away. It's top three for me, documentary, like that I've seen personally. I put it up there with Collective. So you killed it. Thank you for making a great documentary. And that is, I wouldn't just say that. mean, and that is such a compliment. Cause like I said, Collective is like, that's like, they're very similar though, in a way I feel like, cause I'm sure they had.

He had to look across over their shoulder, you know, like, mean, they're in danger. yeah, absolutely. And the way that folded the investigative component of that, I that was just so good. And it was the first documentary that I can remember watching where. They didn't acknowledge the camera. I'm sure it wasn't the first one I saw that way, but it just, you know, this was five years ago when I saw it, I was more of a fiction minded person. But that movie put me on to what's possible for documentary.

You know, it changed. Even though like, know, like 50s and 60s documentary cinema, whatever, they've been doing, you ⁓ that. ⁓ you know, ⁓ but I didn't know it, you know. And Collective, though, was just like, wow, this is like spotlight, but in a documentary, but even better. And some real stuff. Some real world stuff. Anyways, okay. felt exactly the same. That was the one, because you see documentaries, see it, and there's a lot of good films out there, but that one just.

slapped me in the face. was just like, my God. And they did it. I never post, but I post it on Facebook. I never post. I think, I think, I don't even know if I, did we have Instagram then? I saw it also probably five years ago, whenever it was. ⁓ But yeah, that film is fucking, great. And yours was the same as far as the threat was even, whatever it is, matters, no competition, but the threat was huge. The stakes were huge and we were in real time as opposed to.

having someone recount or revisit, like you said, reenactments, all this stuff, like if you need to do it, you got to do it. But it's so much more effective for a viewer when you're experiencing the now as opposed to what's already happened. Yes. I mean, that's I think if you can take audiences on an experiential experience, an experience, a journey, that is everything. And that is that's also, think, the way to crack open even

compassion, all sorts of things, know, it's because it's because because the audience is living through something as opposed to being told something and totally. So, yeah. Well, I really appreciate it. Yeah. I really appreciate you asking to to do this. No, I thank you for taking your time. How did you what was your starting point as a filmmaker? Your editor first? Well, yeah, but I was.

My first love was writing, really, and puzzles, actually. So I never even thought about editing. I never even conceived of that. Just like most people don't even know what editing is. For a lot of people, think that, you take the pieces and you just put them in the order and that's it. It's so under whatever, appreciated. Yeah. But it was through...

writing and actually doing some acting in theater because I did love, I love shaping performance because I do in editing, I go back and forth pretty intentionally between narrative and doc, green, fresh. And I do love working on actors performances and all that, but also structure. The editing is writing in a way it's writing with, you know, with

a certain amount of footage ⁓ with sound, because I'm huge. Sound to me is huge. you cannot separate sound and picture. In terms of storytelling, sound is not like you have a visual story and then you add this. No, it's all part of experience. So when I did fall into editing, which I would say I almost fell into, ⁓ it was suddenly

this perfect, it was like, was writing, was structure, was puzzles, because I was obsessed with puzzles when I was little, know, murder games, And then documentary, think, oh my God, there's nothing better. There's better. agree. Something really deeply, because I do also feel this, the motto, know, the more specific, the more universal.

Yeah, it's 100 % true. You know, if you can go deeply into something, one thing it can resonate far and wide as opposed to like these kind of survey things. I think in terms of directing documentary, being able to, again, like we're saying, keep your nose to the grindstone and just sort of plunge and just trust your intuition in terms of where the story is telling you it needs to go or where you have to go. It's such a, it's

such a gift. It's like I always loved college. I went to graduate school. could have honestly been in college forever in a way. I always wanted to take every course and documentaries is like that. It's like doing a special master's seminar in this and then one in that. Yeah. I don't know if that answered your question. It's so good. I love the line that you said about the more specific, the more universal. That is such a wonderful reminder.

with this important thing to think about. Gosh. I know, sometimes it's easy to think the other way and yet it's so, cause it's kind of common to me. And I have. All the way through a whole damn film that I would never want you to watch. So documentary. all have. Documentary is my favorite now because I was doing fiction for like 10, 15, whatever years, know, like I want to be the next whoever, know, Soderbergh. And then I

stumbled into the documentary, this hometown little short basketball duck that I did. And I realized, first of all, I love that I can't control, but so much. That was a gift for me. And I needed, I needed that. I'm sure a lot of us do. And it was like, parameters are a gift. This is a great thing, you know? And so it's when you were talking about just, you know, editing and piecing together, like what you have versus, I can write and shoot anything that comes to mind. It's like, that is a dangerous slippery slip, at least for me.

So that's my favorite thing about documentary. Insisting is resisting or whatever. It's like, you try to force and control, you're going to end up in a bad way. If you just sit back and fall back and chill and take a breath, things always come to you in a nice and appropriate fulfilling way. Same with filming. Yeah, it's like the thing about Sam is filming upstream. When you're fighting something intuitive or you're

force something to happen, it's never gonna go well. mean, it's just like, but, you know, following the cues and trusting yourself because yeah, the limitations are what make, I mean, it's, you know, what is it? Necessity is another creation, but it's so true. in shooting, you can also kind of turn your nose a certain, like you can kind of probe a certain way. It doesn't make something happen, but it can, if you can go deep enough, can kind of

get, well, again, the more specific, you know, take another layer off. Okay, so deep, know. Yeah. Anyway. What are you working on right now? And also, what was your last, is Beyond Utopia your last film or did you, you edited what, Captain America, the latest Captain America? ⁓ yeah. That's not the kind of thing. No, well, that's not the kind of thing I usually do. The director of that was someone who I'd worked with on an Indie, because they do, as an editor, a lot of Indies, and he's a great guy. And he was doing ⁓

a Marvel film and Marvel always has at least two editors and they always want at least one of them to have done a Marvel, but they're sometimes open to someone who hasn't. And so he had wanted me to come and do it with him. so it was really because of him that I did that. That is not at all the kind of thing I usually do. so rad to see that when I popped up and pulled up your IMDb or whatever, it's like, cool. Because I mean, those movies are fun. Whatever, that movie was good. It's fine. Like whatever, people are very sensitive. I mean, it was, it was, was, I mean, was

One thing that was great is in my editing room, had surround sound. So I could, because I am obsessed with sound and I could make sounds go all over the room and that was amazing. And then also to have these incredible visual effects people on the floor where, you know, you can mock something up on the avid and then just call someone in and say, can you kind of do a version of this? you know, an hour later, they're bringing you in something that's amazing, you know? And obviously it's a mock-up, but it's more than I could do on the avid.

So it was a totally different experience. So that was really valuable in that sense. But ⁓ I've been shooting another documentary on and off for six years. Actually, before I started Beyond Utopia that I'll be editing soon. And then I just started shooting two films that are gonna... is gonna be on and off for a while. And this other one is...

I can't say anything about it. This film is already blowing my mind. it's so exciting. It's going to blow a lot of people's minds. We can't get anything, huh? We can't get any little information? Nothing. I can't. I can't right now. Well, as long as you're excited about something. But at some point, I can. But yeah, I literally just started shooting it, so I can't. it's going to be really... Oh my...

Wow, I'm excited for that. Okay, well, hey, thank you so much for doing this. ⁓ thank you. And I hope I didn't ramble on too much and get Are you kidding me? So good. And send me your cut.

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