E65 • Curation as Craft, Responsibility, Intuition • ANIA TRZEBIATOWSKA, Sundance Programmer & SANDS Festival Director

Sundance feature programmer Ania Trzebiatowska joins the show to talk about curation as craft, responsibility, and intuition. From her roots in Poland to running Krakow’s Off Camera festival, working in acquisitions at Visit Films, and programming U.S. and world documentary features at Sundance, Ania reflects on how taste is formed and why being pleasantly surprised when viewing submissions still matters most.

We discuss the realities filmmakers obsess over, including who you know, timing, marketplace “success,” and why Vimeo analytics do not tell the full story. Ania breaks down what actually happens behind the scenes at Sundance, how programmers balance limited slots with thousands of film submissions, and why being the right fit matters more than trends or agendas.

She shares why festivals need balance between urgent, heavy films and work that is entertaining, humane, and emotionally alive. Drawing from examples like André Is an Idiot and Gleason, Ania explains how character-driven storytelling can carry even the most difficult subjects. Advice to filmmakers: do your research, be clear about what you are making, and remember that programmers are rooting for you, even when the answer might still be no.

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Introducing the Past Present Feature Film Festival, a new showcase celebrating cinematic storytelling across time. From bold proof of concept shorts to stand out new films lighting up the circuit, to overlooked features that deserve another look. 

Sponsored by the Past Present Feature podcast and Leica Camera. Submit now at filmfreeway.com/PastPresentFeature

Chapters

• 0:33 Past Present Feature, Hosted by Marcus Mizelle
• 0:52 ANIA TRZEBIATOWSKA, Sundance Programmer & SANDS Festival Director

Transcript

Marcus Mizelle (00:21)
Sundance feature programmer Ania Chabiatowska

as craft, and intuition. From her roots in Poland to running Krakow's off-camera festival, working in acquisitions at Visit Films, and programming US and world documentary features at Sundance, Ania reflects on how taste is formed.

and why being pleasantly surprised when viewing submissions still matters most.

We discuss the realities filmmakers obsess over, who you know, marketplace success, and why Vimeo Analytics do not tell the full story. Anya breaks down what actually happens behind the scenes at Sundance, how programmers balance limited slots with thousands of film submissions, and why being the right fit matters more than trends or agendas. She shares why festivals need balance between urgent, heavy films and work that is entertaining, humane, and emotionally alive.

Drawing from examples like Andre as an Idiot and Gleason, Anya explains how character-driven storytelling can carry even the most difficult subjects. Advice to filmmakers? Do your research, be clear about what you're making, and remember that programmers are rooting for you, even when the answer might still be no.

Marcus Mizelle (01:27)
How are you doing? Thank you for doing this.

Ania (01:28)
good. No, thank you. I'm so sorry. So it's basically taken three months to do this. I'm so sorry.

Marcus Mizelle (01:32)
Fine, it's no big

where do you live by the way? ⁓ I'm in Toluca Lake. Yes, that's wild.

Ania (01:34)
I meant to look like I'm in studio studio area. No.

That's so strange. I'm off

Frankisham. I'm basically like, you know, this weird thing where you're like on the... Basically, I'm at an intersection of three different neighborhoods. it's like Studio City to look like North Hollywood type of a thing. Yeah.

Marcus Mizelle (01:52)
Yeah, we're literally, can, wow. I'm off Langer Shim.

Ania (01:55)
That's so funny.

Marcus Mizelle (01:57)
we're like a less than a mile from each that's crazy. I take, it's so weird. I take Whipple to take my kid to school at Oakwood.

Ania (01:59)
We might have seen her in the neighborhood. That is really creepy.

Or your kid goes to Oakwood. I don't know.

Marcus Mizelle (02:08)
Did you know, you know what? I don't know who knows what or what's what. just was.

Ania (02:11)
You know

what, as a childless person who has a boyfriend with two kids, I know way too much about schools that I had no interest in initially, and I know way too much about schools. So yes, I do know how good.

Marcus Mizelle (02:19)
Okay.

It's such a crazy

process of getting your kids into a school in LA and I'm glad that we did Oakwood because it truly does feel kind of down to earth

Ania (02:31)
It's to be a really good place though because you want to do well you said right

Marcus Mizelle (02:33)
anyways.

yeah, yeah, yeah,

It was awesome. I went for this projector sponsor, this really cool Chinese projector company called Valerian. get yours today. asked me to come out and just hang out and meet people and bring them to the booth and stuff. And so I got a free trip to France and I went to Italy as well. And it was wonderful. And then I come back into this place and I'm like, God dang it.

Ania (02:52)
It's thick.

Marcus Mizelle (02:57)
don't have to talk about it, but...

Ania (02:58)
Yeah,

mean, everywhere is complicated right now,

Marcus Mizelle (03:01)
It's, yeah, yeah, yeah, fair enough.

And you would know more than me because, where are you from? Polish. Nice. you from Krakow? Oh, Polanski. I don't know how, can we even talk about Polanski? Nobody likes him anymore. He's a bad boy.

Ania (03:05)
I'm Polish originally, but I grew up in UK, so I'm kind of like, yeah, all over the map. but I studied there and it's my favorite place in Poland for sure.

I mean,

like his hostels though, right? I don't know.

Marcus Mizelle (03:22)
I mean, I just, he's always been in my top five as far as the filmmaker itself, you know. And when I think of Polish filmmakers, of course, I think of Polanski and Knife in the Water, you know, and what a great, probably one of the best, I mean, he won the best foreign film, the Oscar for best foreign film, his first feature, right? Which popped him off.

Ania (03:32)
Yeah.

Well, I

I did a screening of a restoration of Knife in the Water years and years ago with Jim there and it really was kind of a magical thing. yeah, but you know, like you say, I don't know what's allowed in terms of, you know, what we can appreciate versus not. Although I am reading this book called Monsters about this, basically, you know, allow to appreciate art by people.

Marcus Mizelle (03:47)
Whoa.

Ania (04:07)
that we have moral sort of quandary to it. And it's, it's fascinating. It really is fascinating. And I still don't, I mean, I don't, I don't know what to make of a lot of this stuff, but it's called monsters. Yeah.

Marcus Mizelle (04:10)
So interesting.

It's called Monsters.

It

really does make you think, doesn't it? Yeah, it's like, how can I support or promote or lift up somebody that's done XYZ because it's not okay in society, but man, his movies were great. It's like, what do you do about that? I don't know. Okay, so I am so happy to have you and I have a few basic, simple questions.

I don't want to get your name wrong. Please help me.

Ania (04:43)
I want to hear you introduce me. This is the most exciting part.

Marcus Mizelle (04:47)
you want me to try?

Ania (04:51)
That's very close.

it's Ania Trzebiatowska. That's how you pronounce it. So was really close. It was very good.

Marcus Mizelle (04:57)
It's a beautiful Can we talk about Poland real quick? I've never been, I've always wanted to go.

The film of it all, the first thing I think about is film. And then Paweł Palakowski, is that his name? The guy that did Cold War? Yeah, great filmmaker. ⁓

Ania (05:08)
Agnieszka

Holland, who's also amazing, just premiered a new film at TIFF. Yeah, it's a pretty good filmmaking sort of situation, you know.

Marcus Mizelle (05:24)
They're pretty good. They're pretty good. What is it about

that? I mean, the culture, I think a lot of European cinema in general compared to, you know, let's say America, whatever, it does seem more craft-focused and more celebratory of the filmmaking versus kind of a business side of it. And that's more of an LA situation, I feel like. Maybe New York is similar, but it seems like, you know, French, of course, Italian cinema, I German cinema, Polish cinema, they're all very focused on the craft and the quality. Would you say?

Ania (05:52)
Well, I guess it was set up very differently, you know, I guess given film history and how it all, the beginnings, the roots, you know, in Europe, it was very, different from the studio system and all of that. That in itself kind of makes it, you know, makes it very different, but by default. But I think, I mean, I think you're right about the craft of it all. It's a little bit of...

Marcus Mizelle (06:05)
Mm-hmm.

Ania (06:11)
It's the focus is always on that. Sometimes to his detriment too, obviously, because, you know, if you focus on the craft, but not the story as much, the script, that can be a problem. But it's true that a lot of the schools, film schools in Poland, for example, they'll be educating, you know, all the aspects of what makes a film look good and sound good and all of that. So you won't be just studying directing, you'll be studying all aspects of the craft. And we have really amazing editors as well. So I think it's...

Yeah, think it's NDPs. Some of our DPs are the best in the world.

Marcus Mizelle (06:42)
I agree. Yeah. And I think

also the lighting, the soft light, correct me if I'm wrong, right? Over there in that world, part of the world, just the lighting is so, I'm not saying that the filmmaking isn't great, but it's just, it lends itself to such a aesthetic, beautiful vibe. So you are a feature programmer at the Sundance Film Festival and you focus on US and world documentary features, correct?

Ania (06:49)
Yeah, I think that's it.

That is

Marcus Mizelle (07:05)
also the festival director of SANS International Film Festival in St. Andrews,

Ania (07:10)
That is also correct.

Marcus Mizelle (07:11)
what's up with the Sands International Film Festival? I'm curious.

Ania (07:14)
Because it sounds so random. Yes, well, it is lovely and it is a place in the world that's very dear to me for a number of reasons. So that was a bit of an accident. So I used to rewind a second to give you context. I ran a film festival in Poland called Off Camera for a very long time. Basically that was sort of like my first proper big curatorial job.

Marcus Mizelle (07:18)
I mean, it sounds lovely though.

Ania (07:39)
And that's a festival that's based in Krakow and I did that from 2009 up until 2021, I guess, around that time.

Marcus Mizelle (07:50)
It says

2008 to 2020. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm just saying this robot.

Ania (07:54)
It was a long

time. It was a long time anyway. Yes. And then it just became very difficult to have two full-time jobs. So doing that alongside Sundance was a bit too much. And so I decided to retire from, from off camera and I always loved the fact that I had that connection to Europe while working in the States. is important to me. It's just important for me to be sort of plugged into that industry, side of the industry in Europe.

Marcus Mizelle (08:22)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Ania (08:23)
I was looking for opportunities in Europe just on a part-time basis because you know there's a time during the year when as a Sundance programmer you had a it's just not as busy it was still working around but it's not as busy so you have a few months when you can do other things and

Marcus Mizelle (08:33)
Yeah.

Which would

be what, like right after the festival's over kind of thing, like the summer-ish? Yeah.

Ania (08:41)
Yeah, basically

between February and I would say May, things are... So that's the time when we don't have submissions open. It's a simple...

Marcus Mizelle (08:46)
Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ania (08:53)
And then we do and then things get really busy again. But I was looking to find something around that time. And my sister who lives in Scotland, who has been based in Scotland for a long time, she's an academic. She sent me a Guardian jobs ad that basically said that the University of St. Andrews were looking for a film curator to study festival.

Marcus Mizelle (09:11)
Mm-hmm.

Ania (09:17)
So I applied. didn't know anybody at the university. I've only been to St. Andrews a few times. I loved it. I mean, it's a stunning place in the world. really is.

Marcus Mizelle (09:23)
Ugh, I wanna go.

Ania (09:25)
yeah, so the idea of the, the festival from the beginning was to make it into a weekend type of an affair. So it three days, no competitions. We basically showcase.

Marcus Mizelle (09:30)
Okay, nice.

Ania (09:35)
the most exciting, in my opinion, first and second feature films from directors, international directors. And I get to curate it with a group of students from the universities. It's also like bit of a, you know, I get to teach a little bit and they get to learn something about this world. So just a really good reminder of why I love my job as well, you know, on top of everything else. So it's fun.

Marcus Mizelle (09:37)
Mm-hmm. Very cool.

Thanks.

That's amazing. So you like saying,

yeah, that's really cool. We're actually putting together a three day, very, very quick three day festival based on this podcast, just it's past, present feature film festival where we basically show three older feature films, know, meaning like, you know, something that maybe didn't pop off or didn't get that love right out the gate, but it's still good. And I think people can be ageist about films or at least distributors can be.

Ania (10:06)
Mm-hmm.

Thanks

Marcus Mizelle (10:18)
And then the middle day would be three feature films of probably sourced from this podcast, these episodes. So already filmmakers that wanna kinda replay their movie.

And then the third day would be the future, which would be these proof of concept kind of short films that would be a future film that they'd like to make. You know, 333, But yeah, I mean, it's like just the curation of it all is really, really fun and exciting.

You're saying the weekend, like a weekend festival at first, at least, like what a simple, solid kind of like, it's almost like a screening series. It's a festival, but it's also like this manageable thing, I guess.

Ania (10:52)
Yeah,

the idea is to have a festival where if you want to, you can see every single film we're playing and go to every single event. I don't like to overwhelm, I think.

Marcus Mizelle (11:00)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ania (11:03)
There are enough events out there that are too big in the sense that I just find them overwhelming and I don't know what to pick in the end and you kind of get a little bit lost. And I think it's just, yeah, it just works in this format for us. And I don't want it bigger. I don't think it makes any sense, at least right now, but I don't, you know, it's going to be a fifth year next year. So I think it's working in that sense. Thank you. Yeah, we made it. Yeah, that's something these days.

Marcus Mizelle (11:22)
wow, congrats.

I'm dreading even doing this little three day thing that we're doing, but I'm like, I have to do it. I said I was gonna do it, we have to do it.

Ania (11:32)
It sounds like a really good idea and I like the concept a lot. think it makes sense.

Marcus Mizelle (11:36)
Oh,

Yes, thank you. Yeah, it does seem I'm happy. I'm excited about it. And like anything, it just takes work. You know, but I was talking to Tom Powers, you know, TIF programmer, and we were talking a lot about curation and just how I was like, what would your advice be on, you know, on keeping cinema alive and that at all? And he's like, if you just get people together and watch movies. And I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, that's true. You know, it does boil down to that, you know.

Ania (11:45)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and tell

people about the films you love that might have not seen. I mean, it's literally just what I do. I think it's good for the soul to spread.

Marcus Mizelle (12:09)
Love it.

It's like, it

goes back to the main, the beginning of like why I think a lot of us, love movies. you know, it all started with just sitting down and watching movies. I mean, it's like me watching my kid watch ET. His mouth is like wide open, like, my God.

Ania (12:25)
you

Marcus Mizelle (12:26)
I'm

like, yep, this is what it can

Ania (12:27)
Is that his favorite film?

Marcus Mizelle (12:30)
I don't know if it's his favorite, but it's the first movie that I showed him where it was the next level where I could see him being just completely mesmerized. And it was kind of the first live action I think that he saw or one of the first. But when E.T. and them go over the moon in the bicycle when they fly past the moon, and the music, John Williams,

Ania (12:51)
we have.

Marcus Mizelle (12:55)
like, uh-huh, it's cool. I'm rambling a little bit, sorry. Okay, so you have held roles in acquisitions, sales and acquisitions. You were at Alt Look Film Sales, and then you were at Visit Films in New York around 2015. Can you tell me a little bit about that, space in your career?

Ania (12:55)
That's so nice.

Yeah, so I, at that point when I joined VIZIT, it again kind of a happy accident. I always really, really appreciated VIZIT Films' slates and the way that, again, that slate was curated. I love the fact that they were supporting first and second time filmmakers and they had this exciting new work that people were a little bit, know, bigger companies might have been a little bit afraid of or not knowing what to do with. And VIZIT always felt like a really good home for those films. You know, they had, it follows.

huge, amazing films that weren't big as such at the beginning, but they kind of exploded. I really like their taste. And I was showing their films for a long time at the festival. running in Krakow, and that's how I became friendly with them. And then I was talking to...

Marcus Mizelle (13:40)
great movie.

Ania (13:55)
to Ryan, who's the founder of the company and he's a friend and he was saying that he was looking for someone to head up his acquisitions. They were based in New York. I was in London at the time. I was living in London and I've always really wanted to live in New York. So it just felt like bit of a, I don't know, like a happy accident again. also...

Marcus Mizelle (14:06)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. You're like, what's good in New York?

Ania (14:21)
Kudos to Ryan for being really open to someone who didn't have experience in the acquisition space, but he said something that I remember to this day. He said that he didn't think it was that different in terms of, you know, of what you would be doing. It was, it was still curation. It was just curation with more of a business side of things in mind.

Marcus Mizelle (14:39)
Love that.

Ania (14:40)
again, they still, remain one of the biggest supporters of, you know, independent film, truly independent film out there.

Marcus Mizelle (14:46)
I

know the name.

Ania (14:47)
They do fiction on fiction, features only. I don't think they do shorts at all. And they do also fantastic work when it comes to festivals and festival representation for those films. Films really travel with them, which is great. So yeah, so that's how it happened. And then I just learned so much about curation through that job. And it was really eye-opening. I mean, was, I'm not going to lie, working in acquisitions and in sales.

Marcus Mizelle (14:51)
Sure, yeah.

Ania (15:13)
when you're a programmer can be quite difficult. Just understanding, yeah, just a little bit of both. You learn a lot about what audiences like, what they watch. You have theories as to why they watch it. And then also same thing in terms of, you know, why buyers want what they want and them telling you what they want, but changing their minds.

Marcus Mizelle (15:16)
How so?

marketplace meets the craft and it doesn't align sometimes maybe something like this or

Hmm.

Interesting.

Ania (15:41)
was overnight, so you deliver what they asked for and then they go, actually we've moved on, thank you very much. So it's just a bit of a tough sort of, if you're a film lover, it can be really rough on you for a while. And it was one of those things you just have to develop a thicker sort of situation.

Marcus Mizelle (15:44)
⁓ gosh.

Right.

can get frustrated and whatever, whenever you don't get a good opportunity, distribution opportunity. But, it's like, well, why not? People say they wanna see this or like, this is something that people would wanna watch or whatever. And it's like, is it the middleman? Is it like the, is it the sales company or is it the...

moved on.

Ania (16:16)
I think it's...

And I really do. think it's a combination of factors, honestly. And, you know, on one hand, sure, I agree with you. Maybe that's sort of, it feels like it's short-sighted. On the other hand, they work with very specific numbers. They know themselves, and this is the, this is the really hard sort of truth of it all. And this is what gets really depressing when you hear it from someone put it like this, like, for example, foreign language in the U S is almost impossible to sell and they have their reasons and their numbers for it all of that. And then you.

Marcus Mizelle (16:29)
Sure.

Okay.

Ania (16:46)
You tell them you have something really special and unique and they should watch it and every now and then someone will and they will appreciate it but that still doesn't change the fact that they can't buy it for example. it's just, it is, look I agree with you, I think there is a difference between just like saying a straight up note or something versus giving it a shot but I do think you also have to be aware of what's...

Marcus Mizelle (16:55)
Sure.

Ania (17:08)
the possibilities are. And so maybe there's a sort of like a middle ground of sorts where you push your audiences a little bit, but you don't take them out of their comfort zone completely. And that goes for creation in general. I don't think that we can be constantly challenging audiences to see something they're not prepared for. It's just, it's a...

Marcus Mizelle (17:09)
you

It's so interesting

that that that ground that that middle whatever the great that gray area so right it's like the marketplace meets the.

Ania (17:37)
But think of it this way, you wouldn't want to be challenged 24-7 when it comes to what you watch, right? You do want to have some comfort in what you know and what you like. So I think it's just that. It's just like, can't expect someone to be prepared to be challenged constantly because it's just exhausting. you know.

Marcus Mizelle (17:46)
Sure, yeah, definitely.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah. And people work all day and they want to come home and just say, I want to check out. But it's also just frustrating as far as the American audiences. And I'm not saying I'm all fancy, but like, it's tough. Reality shows work all day long and they love it. like, you know, if I'm at somebody's house and they got some reality TV on, I might even sit there and watch it because it's like a train wreck. But after about seven minutes, I'm like,

Ania (17:59)
see. No, no, no, no.

Marcus Mizelle (18:17)
I feel like crap watching this. I don't want to watch this. And I guess I'm just not the typical American viewer. I don't know. I don't know.

Ania (18:24)
But reality shows are very popular outside of the US as well. it's just the US thing of it all, don't think. But it's the formula again. It's something that people know. And like you're saying, like to watch something that kind of it's like a mix of comfort and discomfort, I guess. I don't know. I'm not the best person to talk about

Marcus Mizelle (18:28)
Are they really? Okay, interesting.

Ania (18:46)
at all. I actually find it fascinating. just don't, for whatever reason, I don't deal with reality TV very well. It just, it just doesn't, I don't know. It causes so much discomfort for me a lot of the time that I just, I find it very hard, honestly, all the time. It just depends on what it is, of course.

Marcus Mizelle (19:01)
Yeah It's

so interesting to how much it's not documentary at all, but it has this it's like documentaries step sister Twice removed. I don't know where it's like it's filmed in a way where it's quote unquote real. It's called reality But it's it's the authenticity the fake authenticity. It's like it's how far away is reality TV from auto-fiction You know what? I mean, it's such a strange weird thing to think about

Ania (19:27)
so much of it is also kind of like psychologically set up in advance, you know, in terms of how the candidates are selected, how they mix and match types of personalities to create conflict and all of that. So that's, that's, you know, manipulated to a degree that I don't know. I mean, it's the reality though, obviously they doing things, right? And, you know, but it's a lot of it.

Marcus Mizelle (19:48)
Well, there's

actual real, there are real people in real situation. Well, not real situation, but yeah, there are real people. I have an idea. Why don't we create the reality TV film festival? You in? Let's do it. No.

Ania (20:02)
I mean, that will be popular,

that's for sure. They have those viewings of Love Island. And I saw that in West Hollywood. had this bar that literally would screen episodes of Love Island and it was packed. Well, that's a segue.

Marcus Mizelle (20:14)
Yeah, they love it. They love it. Let me ask you this. So as far as like Sundance and not just...

like, yeah, segue. But my question was gonna be, you find that sometimes when you guys curate something for Sundance and it doesn't make its way into the marketplace successfully, do you find that to be happening more often than not? I mean, it seems like a lot of...

Ania (20:21)
Thank

Marcus Mizelle (20:36)
movies that are quality, are great, that are at Sundance, but don't seem to find any traction. And maybe that's just a conversation about festivals versus marketplace. I don't know.

Ania (20:45)
But

can I ask you, define success in the marketplace? What do you mean by that?

Marcus Mizelle (20:49)
Like meaning like becoming a mainstream thing where people that aren't into film festivals are know it and actually watching it and it's getting in front of their face. Do you know what I mean?

Ania (21:00)
I mean, I don't know if that's true, to be honest. I mean, I guess if you were defining, that's why I asked, because if you were defining success in the marketplace as a deal and like distribution deal, that would be a different conversation because that's just really difficult right now, full stop for any film. But I think in terms of recognition and people's awareness of those films, I mean, I don't know if that's the case. I think we're doing pretty good for those films in that way. Cause you know, it's a small program when you think about it. So if you have 10 minutes.

Marcus Mizelle (21:16)
Sure, yeah.

Yeah.

Maybe so. just, seems like even I've been doing this podcast for about a year and a half, but yeah. And, I've been going through programs for each festival and interviewing Sundance filmmakers last year or whatever, for example, ⁓ about eight of them or something. And I am not the typical American viewer. I'm kind of like, ⁓ you know, I'm looking, I watch Criterion Channel when I get bored type thing, or I, you know, have movie, or I am looking at kind of more of the,

Ania (21:30)
In the-

Mm-hmm.

Marcus Mizelle (21:56)
And I have all the other normal things too, normal streamers too, but I don't see anything from Sundance on any anywhere. You know, I'm just saying or any of these festivals really, they don't seem to make it make their way through to the marketplace or whatever you whatever. Maybe the marketplace is the wrong word, you know, but I don't know what else to call it, you know, as far as these these places where people watch movies and maybe it. But thing is, maybe I'm missing them too. Maybe I'm not maybe I'm just not coming across them. And I don't think it's just Sundance. It just seems like the festival world.

It seems like there are things that make it through, it's like maybe that's a, don't know. Maybe that's also just a reflection of the industry itself and how volume is crazy and things get lost in the mix. I don't know. ⁓

Ania (22:29)
So.

A lot of

it is timing, think. mean, volume for sure, but a lot of it is timing. it's the question of, you you hear about something out of the festival, but it's on a streamer a year later because that's just what it is, because films will travel to festivals for a year and then they will have a streaming. So I wouldn't sort of, I wouldn't give up on them just yet. I think, you know, there are a lot of films that have been traveling a lot and a lot of the films that I know from this year's festival will have

Marcus Mizelle (22:48)
Okay. Mm-hmm.

Sure.

Ania (23:06)
sort

of like ways to be released one way or another. you know, and I'm just saying sometimes it is a self-release by the filmmakers because they were tired of waiting for someone to pick them up and they just didn't want any of those excuses anymore. And that's fair enough. And I quote us to them, it's a lot of work. And I really appreciate when filmmakers decide to do it because they've done already so much for the film and then they have to also self-distribute. So that's a lot. But on the other hand, it's to get out there. And so I don't know, I do think it's a lot of this timing.

Marcus Mizelle (23:09)
Yeah.

Sure. Yeah.

Yeah.

Ania (23:36)
also feel like given the numbers, you know, from the last few years of Oscar nominated films, there were basically most of them as Sundance supported. That's a pretty good ratio, I would say. So, and I'm not, this is not honestly, I'm with you on how we need more really good films out there. I just think that it's a combination of factors in terms of how we get them.

Marcus Mizelle (23:47)
Okay, nice.

Yeah, very cool.

Mm.

Ania (24:01)
Yeah, and there's a difference between something being readily available on Netflix versus, you know, something you have to seek out or go and see in a theatre. I don't know. It's just so, of course, I'm not saying it's all that easy, but I do think I do think that if you want to, they, you know, those films are there.

Marcus Mizelle (24:17)
Sure. And even just film festivals in general, I think are so much more important than ever, maybe not ever, but it seems like they're such the linchpin of like, it's such a big important deal to have these festivals now because of the curation and of giving, it is a gatekeeping situation. I mean, I don't mean that in a nasty way. I mean it like, literally like you have to go through the gate to get to the next place and get people to see your stuff in a way and you have to be selected. Somebody has to select.

these films, you know, and it is, you know, just to see like the full calendar year of like, you know, all the Sundances and the Vinnesses and the Tarantos and the da da da da da Berlin, LA, like, and then you see these quality films getting selected and put on. It does give me hope and makes me feel good about at least that there's that, you know, with the contrast being kind of, you know, you know, Netflix kind of turning into more of a

Reality streamer anyways blah blah blah blah blah. ⁓ Okay, this Sundance programming?

Did you say it out loud before you got the job? Like, That's my dream job. And then you got it. Was it a manifestation situation?

Ania (25:29)
It was, but I think I was so, you know, I'm, look, I'm Polish. I have so much, like, I don't believe in good things happening to me until they actually do. It's like, it's a, Poland is very complicated like that and we're a very complicated nation, so we also have lot of guilt happening. It's like, I don't deserve this type of a thing. So until it actually happened, and today, every now and then, I'm just like, you know, and also, you know this, I'm sure, I don't know if you have these moments, but living in Los Angeles is also so ridiculous to me at times, you know, I...

Marcus Mizelle (25:41)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. my goodness, yeah.

yeah,

I'm from North Carolina, you know, so yeah.

Ania (26:01)
But it's just crazy, you and then you're surrounded by these incredibly creative people and yeah, and it's just wild. It really is still to this day.

Marcus Mizelle (26:08)
Honestly, I feel

like I've been more surrounded by business people here, film business people than filmmakers here. Maybe just my experience and my ex, you know, is an executive. So maybe that's why. And that's fine. And I like a lot of them, but it's just not my speed, you know? But I feel like LA, I've definitely had a full-on dose of the business side of it as far as hanging out with people and hearing people's, hearing the business side of perspectives of things, you know?

Ania (26:31)
That makes sense.

That makes sense.

Now that I think about it, I usually hang out mostly with my friends from New York who moved to LA.

Marcus Mizelle (26:38)
God.

like New York is so craft driven and then being, you know, in Europe and this whole podcast started from me being at the Berlin Film Festival. had a buddy who had a film in there

And we went to this like filmmaker brunch on that Sunday with all this company that held it with that represented all these directors. And it was like, obviously this must be what the French New Wave was like, know, whatever. was like something as an American filmmaker I had never experienced before where people were rabid about just like film. not business, but film. And I'm like, my God, I need this. And it's not really something that I've found in LA. So at least.

I thought about it for four years and then finally I said, let me try this podcast thing. And now I'm able to just like go back to that room in Berlin, you know? sometimes people are less than a mile away from my little studio. It's so weird. But it's the idea of like, you know, just at end of the day, just like celebrating and talking about movies and, you know, and also like, you know, the intersection of movies and marketplace or movies and curation.

Ania (27:25)
you

Marcus Mizelle (27:41)
just very important on how movies are seen and who sees what and just kind of just like helping support other filmmakers. Like it's such a good feeling to even like to relate and to connect as a filmmaker with other filmmakers usually on this podcast. But then it's nice to have someone come on that's also a part of the curation process such as yourself.

because it gives insight to filmmakers when they're submitting films and like all this and there's so much assuming and guesswork on like what film festivals are about and what they want and you you don't have any sort of correct data. So I appreciate you doing this by the way. You know, and Tom Powers coming on and then we have another programmer from other festivals where it's just like, why not, you know, why not help share the information on what you're looking for?

Ania (28:17)
Thank you.

Marcus Mizelle (28:29)
Which, next question,

Ania (28:29)
Yeah.

Marcus Mizelle (28:30)
Sundance, you see a huge range of all kinds of submissions, I'm sure, ⁓ documentaries, and you do just documentaries?

Ania (28:38)
So we all programmed together on the feature side of things. I specialize. We kind of have our niches. So I specialize in docs. But we all end up selecting together, which is really nice, because I get to see the best of fiction as well. Yeah, but my passion and sort of my place on the team is on the nonfiction side of things.

Marcus Mizelle (28:40)
Okay.

Okay. very cool.

Okay, so what excites you most about the films coming through right now? Like what is a good movie to you or what is something that you're like, no, next round, here's a star.

Ania (29:07)
You know, I feel like most of my friends who are curators would probably say a version of this, but you always hope to be surprised. Because, you know, if you watch six films a day for weeks...

Marcus Mizelle (29:16)
Mm-hmm.

Ania (29:20)
and I mean for weeks and I six films. It is wild, but it's also, you know, when you see something special and, know, and people often ask us if you do watch the film throughout and all of that, well, it is literally my job to watch your film. So yes, I watch it, you hope for the best. And I always say that I'm your, a, if you're a filmmaker, I'm your sort of, biggest fan. I really want you to succeed. You have no idea how

Marcus Mizelle (29:42)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ania (29:45)
how much I'm rooting for you from the very beginning and I want this film to be amazing. But, you know, it's obviously very hard to make something special and something that will also not just be a really good story, but will be well made and will connect to a viewer on an emotional level. I'm always looking to be moved one way or another, whether it's because I'm surprised or whether it's because I'm reading the story, all of those things.

Marcus Mizelle (29:47)
Mmm. Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

it

comes down to that right the emotional impact or whatever of the film.

Ania (30:13)
For me it does.

people have different ways of approaching it, I'm sure, but I think it's especially these days, you know, I'm waiting to see, to discover something that feels unique and interesting.

Marcus Mizelle (30:17)
Sure.

How many doc programmers are there at Sundance?

Ania (30:30)
So we have, I guess, five of us. Specifically nonfiction. Yeah.

Marcus Mizelle (30:35)
wow, okay. Got you. And

how much of it helps to have an end into the festival.

I mean, it's obviously nice and helpful to know people and it doesn't guarantee anything. I know that, but it that's a positive thing, would you say?

Positive situation, yeah.

Ania (30:51)
Yes, yes.

And to answer your question, it happens a lot. And it doesn't have to be anyone that we know. We get emails from filmmakers who submit it all the time and they flag the film for us. And I say, it's always welcome. I encourage that. I don't always have the time to respond right away. But I think, you know, look, we get hundreds and hundreds of submissions. So it's important to have a sense.

of context sometimes and like you were saying just now, a lot of filmmakers are in the same boat as in they're finishing the film.

they will be uploading updated cuts of their films within a week or something. And it's good to have that information for us. And look, there's no guarantee that we're going to watch the updated version, because I might've seen your film already, and I'm not gonna re-watch it, because we just don't have that kind of time. But my colleague who'll be watching it next will get to see the updated version. So that's really good. I always, I mean, that's a tip that I can give you.

Marcus Mizelle (31:37)
Yeah.

It's really nice to hear and to

know, yeah, this is like invaluable information for sure, for people.

Ania (31:53)
Well, but

I think it's, you know, it's this sort of bizarre way of presenting some of this sort of like, you have to be in the know somehow. Obviously it just depends. You know, there's so many myths and stories about how we do things. And then I try not to get annoyed about it because there's absolutely no point in, you I'll be getting annoyed at the internet

Marcus Mizelle (32:05)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

assume when they don't know, right?

Ania (32:14)
But you're stories as to how we do or don't do things. And I know for a fact that every single film that's submitted to us will be seen by one or two people. so even knowing that, and people get upset because they don't see views on the Vimeo, for example. And I always say, it's in our lives.

Marcus Mizelle (32:31)
⁓ right. That's not accurate

either, is it? I don't think. It's not actually...

Ania (32:34)
Well, it's,

you know, if people read RFAQ, which I always encourage them to do, we do specifically say that if you are watching through a third party viewer, like we do, because I have, you know, my Apple TV connected to a projector and a TV. So when you have that, it doesn't register the views on Vimeo. So it's almost just like I honestly had a conversation with a filmmaker who was telling me that no one watched his film and said, look,

Marcus Mizelle (32:48)
Nice.

Yeah, right.

Ania (33:01)
I can tell you that's not the case because I was actually one of the people that watched your film and you can quiz me on it if you want. It's just that it's almost like, I don't know, maybe, maybe it's good to repeat that every now and then because I get it. I get it that it can be very upsetting if you put

Marcus Mizelle (33:14)
What?

I was actually in Kansas City showing a friend an earlier or a cut of Hollywood PI a few months ago and I then looked at the analytics a few weeks later and like it said that had been watched in Kansas City but only for like one second. I'm like no, I literally we watched the whole movie in Kansas City. So that right there for me was like this is actually some shitty analytics. I'm just saying sorry but it's not great.

Ania (33:38)
⁓ Yep. it's, no,

but it's not their job on the other hand to give you an accurate, you know, it's like, it's a bonus, but it doesn't always work and all of that. So it's almost just like, I don't know. There's only that much you can do in terms of making people feel better about the fact that someone is paying attention to their work. But I can promise you that because I love what I do so much and I love the filmmakers, really do. I have so much respect for anyone who actually makes a film.

Marcus Mizelle (33:44)
It's a bonus. It's a bonus. Yep, No. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Ania (34:07)
that I really, it's just, you know, it's just.

Marcus Mizelle (34:09)
And you've only got

certain amount of slots, right? mean, how many slots do you guys have for documentary features?

Ania (34:13)
But that's the thing,

we have 10 films in our US competition, 10 films in our world competition, and we have some premieres. So it's usually about, I would say, 30 something non-fiction films that we'll be showing. And it's not a large number given how many submissions we have. it's just, we love a film, but we're just not the right fit for it, or we just don't have space, anything

Marcus Mizelle (34:27)
Yeah.

Yeah,

Ania (34:35)
don't submit to every single festival out there. Do your research. See what you actually are right for. See what films they play. Because that's another thing. Sometimes it's a fantastic story that I see, but I'm thinking, OK, but this is such a TV doc. And it's not right for us. And if you knew anything about the films that we show, you would also know that. And you wouldn't spend your 100 bucks or whatever on submitting to us because it's...

Marcus Mizelle (34:37)
All right. Yeah.

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I have to ask you this. Do

you think Hollywood PI is right for Sundance? Because Rachel and them think so.

Ania (35:02)
I cannot answer this question right now. We're right in the middle of the programming process.

Marcus Mizelle (35:04)
Ooh! Okay,

fair enough, fair enough, fair

Ania (35:09)
comfort comes from the fact that someone really appreciates your work. It's not like to Sundance, you it's like you found someone who got what you were doing and they think there's potential in what can happen to it, which is great. And then it doesn't matter. I mean, of course it doesn't matter what happens to it next, but I don't know. think having this encouragement and feeling seen by someone who understands good filmmaking and made something that you respect and admire is a huge...

Marcus Mizelle (35:12)
Yep

Totally.

Ania (35:35)
I just want to remind you how many factors come into play for a film to be selected. The quality of the filmmaking, the storytelling, all of that, that's one thing, there so many other things that come into play and so much of it is also the balance that we have to accomplish within those conditions. And that might mean that we have something similar that functions in a similar space. can be a very different film that functions in similar space.

Marcus Mizelle (35:42)
Mm-hmm.

So you're telling me you've got another detective

documentary with a...

Ania (36:04)
You're

very focused on your own film right now.

Marcus Mizelle (36:09)
I know. Of course I am. I'm a filmmaker.

Thank you for indulging me with that. I appreciate Okay, so what do you look for when deciding whether a film belongs in Sundance?

Ania (36:19)
Well, you know, there are years that...

When we see, you know, people ask us often about, do you focus with a specific agenda in mind? And that is not what we do don't sort of set out looking for something specific. We respond to what's submitted to us, which is, you know, a lot, a lot is submitted to us. And it's really interesting to see and hear what it is that people are thinking about, you know, what sort of, what are the subjects and themes that are on people's minds and how they deal with them?

Marcus Mizelle (36:40)
Sure.

Ania (36:51)
how they tell stories creatively and all of that. So I think that's when the themes emerge, when we have the full program and we actually see something that's so interesting to see that people are thinking about very similar themes around.

Marcus Mizelle (36:56)
Okay.

Are you

grouping themes together? you getting the curation that way sometimes?

Ania (37:06)
Well, it of

just happens organically a lot of the time. We only can see them when we, I mean, you do register even now. I mean, we're a few weeks into this in terms of just like the really intense programming. And I can already see that things that people are thinking about and that's very interesting, but it's almost just, we need to find that balance. Like I was saying, in terms of what's.

Marcus Mizelle (37:10)
Okay.

Yeah.

you

Ania (37:28)
what's appealing to audiences as well. And we have to have obviously some balance in terms of what voices we represent as a festival. We are a pretty unique platform in many ways and especially for documentaries, to me it's big responsibility as well because it's such a small slate. we, know, we do...

Marcus Mizelle (37:46)
Yeah.

Ania (37:49)
To some extent, this programming team obviously represents an audience. So it's, it's okay to disagree. And, those conversations are my favorite a lot of the time, because to have someone feel strongly about something is the best thing that can happen because, know.

Marcus Mizelle (37:58)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. You know, that reminds

me, I met, I was in Deauville and we were at the after parties or whatever and I met this filmmaker who was on the jury as well, Deauville, and she was telling me how they were just, she spent all day just in this room, just this heated debate, this argument, this spirited, back and forth the other jurors. And I was, it was just sounding like really uncomfortable but also really effective.

Ania (38:26)
Juries are hard. They're very hard, but exciting. And it's a good sort of way to also hear how others are thinking about films and can be, it can be fascinating. really can be. I think that speaking of curation, mean, curating jury members is something that's hard.

Marcus Mizelle (38:43)
yeah.

Curating the Curementors.

Ania (38:46)
Well, and not necessarily curators. A lot of the time you'll have filmmakers on Jerry's and that can be rude too, because you know, you have an opinion about it. A lot of the time it's literally trying to stop that filmmaker from thinking about what they watched as if, how would I do it? Because I'm saying that's not the assignment here. You just watch something. You're supposed to judge it on the basis of what it is. You're not supposed to tell me what you would have done if it was you making this film.

Marcus Mizelle (38:50)
Okay.

Mm. Mm-hmm.

huh,

right, right, right, right. I hate when somebody's trying to give notes on your film. mean, give me notes, I like notes. But whenever they don't know the difference between your film and what their film would have been. Where it's like, yeah.

Ania (39:24)
That's exactly

what it is. I think, I mean, I'm all for nodes, but you have to be selective as to who you ask for those nodes.

Marcus Mizelle (39:34)
Do you feel like there's any sort of of a lean at all towards things that might... Our world is so serious and documentaries are such a valuable...

lens to provide certain perspectives of our serious world, but also do you think there's a space now more so for things that are a little more light, but yet still emotionally engaging, still profound, hopefully? You know what I mean? Like is there a space right now in this time for something that can just be like, sigh of relief here and just enjoy this a little more and be more engaged, but hopefully also emotionally profound. But it's not a war. It's not a documentary about the Ukraine.

situation or it's not a doc about, you know, I don't know, gender identity or it's not ⁓ a documentary about something that we've seen a lot of. Do you feel like there's still power in somebody making a film that's entertaining if it doesn't have some sort of like a social, what do you call it? Some current social theme?

Ania (40:30)
Yeah, yeah, I think there is, and I think this is again, going back to the balance I was describing earlier and why this job can be very difficult is that I think we have to make space for both. our job as people who get to see the most in some way to then make sure that you have a pretty good overview of what's out there. And that means.

I think it's very important that we show Steslav Cherno's new film about continued war in Ukraine because people should not be forgetting about it and they should be aware of the fact is an ongoing crisis on so many levels. And I think the moment we stop showing those films, it means we don't care and I don't want to be that person.

Marcus Mizelle (40:59)
Sure, not for sure.

Yeah.

you know, also just making sure that people aren't just chasing something just because they feel like it's the hot thing, you know?

Ania (41:16)
No, no, and that's, mean, I can only speak for us. That's not how we do things. But on the other hand, you know, you would hear sometimes from filmmakers, okay, you have one film about Ukraine. Does that mean they can have another one? Yes, it does. Just depends on what it is and whether we think we're a good fit for it. But again, I really believe in balance. I think it's very important to have those films, but also to have something lighter and something different. Thank you. We'll to do that.

Marcus Mizelle (41:20)
Yeah.

Sure.

Yeah, yeah,

And I feel like Sonnass is really good with that balance. It does seem that way. It does seem, no, it does seem that way.

Ania (41:44)
But you know, but there's also something, because you mentioned how the world is a place that it is right now and it's true and things are pretty hard. But on the other hand, you know, you can have a film that talks about something very serious, but in a way that would be entertaining and different. And we had a film called André is an Idiot at the festival this year.

Marcus Mizelle (41:59)
Sure, yeah.

Ania (42:06)
And it's a film about, well, cancer, basically. But it's also incredibly entertaining and really well-made and very well told. And Andrzej, the main character in the film, is just such an incredible person and so...

Marcus Mizelle (42:10)
⁓ huh. Ow.

Ania (42:23)
so annoying at the same time. it's just, this film is one of those examples that I feel like I always give to people who also tell me, you know, but no one wants to see phones about cancer. you know, A, not true, but B also just depends on the film.

Marcus Mizelle (42:37)
Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a great example. Yeah, that's

a balanced kind of exhibit A, right? Where it's like entertaining but also very serious about, yeah.

Ania (42:44)
Well, was a... Yeah, and

our audiences loved it. And it was one of those films that I just feel like you might not think that you will appreciate it. And then you could fall completely in love with, you know, with the guy you get to meet and his family. And it just changes your outlook on things, which is...

Marcus Mizelle (42:59)
Yeah.

That one kind of

reminds me of my buddy Clay's movie. Did you ever see Gleason? we played at Sundance 10 years ago. Gleason, yes, I was at that premiere. Incredible movie, right? But it's like the, was just such a hard thing to sit through and watch, but like also emotionally wrecking.

Ania (43:08)
Yes it did, yes. That's incredible. ⁓

But you didn't

look away on the other hand, which just speaks to the power of that film and of the storytelling. And again, the characters, because it wasn't just him, it his family as well. It's such a beautiful film and it's also so powerful in so many ways. And yeah, I mean, you're just basically in tears throughout. yeah.

Marcus Mizelle (43:32)
Yup.

Ugh.

I need to Clay on this thing actually. ⁓ Clay, it's Will, what's up, bro? Come on now. okay, where do you see independent film and documentary heading in the next five to 10 years? And I know that's probably a pretty annoying question, but I gotta ask.

Ania (43:44)
Yeah, you do.

I love that you said we were wrapping up and then you asked me one of the biggest questions. Okay well where do I see it? I really wanted to be alive first of all.

Marcus Mizelle (43:57)
I just rounded the corner with that question. We're wrapping up.

Mm.

Ania (44:09)
I wanted to be alive and well. That's what I hope for. I know there's so much talk about just how everything sucks right now and how this industry in such a big, you know, hole, but I don't know. I think people are watching films. They seek them out. They are curious. They need something right now to keep them going. And I think US filmmakers can do a lot.

to maintain that and I think it's very important. I don't know, I think it's a collective job of ours, you you on your end creatively, us on our end, creating space for films to be seen, you know, and it's, I don't know what it is, I think it's just, I am an optimist, which is probably, I mean, a big part of it, but you know, with the founder of the Institute, Robert Redford, who passed last week, with all of that happening, it was also just,

such a powerful reminder for me of why we do what we do and how incredibly invested he was in making space for stories that wouldn't be seen or heard otherwise and creating space for people to be able to express themselves and how it's all about the people. I just, I think that's what it is. know, if you care about what you do and you want to do it well and you do it with care for others as well.

I think there's power in it and I think it can't be ignored. So if we just continue what Robert Redford believed in, I think we'll be fine.

Marcus Mizelle (45:33)
I am on a Robert Redford marathon right now and I just rewatched all the presidents men last night, fell asleep to that.

Ania (45:38)
Awesome.

I loved that film so much.

Marcus Mizelle (45:41)
So good. I mean, I got halfway

through it and then I was knocked out, but yeah, so, so, so, so, so good.

Ania (45:45)
I'll be screening

at Vidiots at the beginning of October. Yeah, yeah. So it's always nice to see it on the big screen, just saying.

Marcus Mizelle (45:48)
it is? Nice.

I only need 12 more questions. I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. That was so good. Thank you so much. And you ended it with an exclamation point. Lovely. I really appreciate you taking the time and hanging in there with me as well.

Ania (45:56)
you

No, my pleasure to meet you.

Let's get coffee