E31: Natural Family Planning: Faith & Science (with Dr. Danielle Koestner, DO)

What does the Church really teach about Natural Family Planning and why does it matter not only spiritually, but scientifically? 

This month on Catholicism 101 Emily sits down with Dr. Danielle Koestner, DO of FEMM for a deeply personal and eye-opening conversation on women’s health, fertility awareness, and the harmony between faith and science.

Whether you’re preparing for marriage, struggling with infertility or hormone issues, discerning NFP, or simply wanting to better understand the beauty of how God designed the body, this episode is a hopeful reminder that truth cannot contradict truth.

Schedule an Appointment | Take a Class | Become a FEMM Medical Provider

Ovulation: A Sign of Health

Read Emily's story on FEMM's Blog: The Hidden Key to Treating Health Problems (1/19/2004)

Transcript

– Intro & Episode Overview

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Hi, friends. Welcome to another episode of Catholicism 101: Forever Learning and Living the Faith. I'm always excited for guests. And today is another especially excited guest. Today I have with me Dr. Danielle Kestner, and she is with FEM. And how I came to know Dr. Kestner is actually I'm currently a patient of hers and have been for almost three years now. So I'm just incredibly excited to have her here because the work that she does with FEM, the the what FEM does, has certainly changed my life and my own struggles with hormone issues, PCOS, now PMOS, and just all things when it comes to both women's health and also the conversation of NFP. So yeah, Dr. Kestner, would you like to share anything about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 1:00

I'm just excited to be here. Thanks for having me. I'm very excited.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Lovely, lovely, lovely. Okay. So I think the first question that I really wanted to ask you, and to just, I mean, I I know what FEM is, but our listeners don't really know what FEM is. Maybe, maybe they do. I hope they do. But if not, what is FEM?

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Sure. Absolutely. FEM stands for fertility education and medical management. And we really exist to help women advance the standard of care for women's health. So what we try to do is see women hear them. A lot of times they've seen many doctors before us with the hormone issues they have. Many doctors have tried to put them on different pills or hormonal contraceptions or different things for whatever underlying issue they have. And our goal is to really hear them, but also to do a really good evidence-based evaluation of what they have going on. So with a labs, ultrasound and cycle charting, we're able to really diagnose and treat the root cause of women's health issues. So heavy bleeding, painful periods, irregular cycles, acne, all the things, infertility, uh super fertility, all the things, like what is going on in your life, we can really try to get to the

– Guest Introduction & Background

SPEAKER_01 2:18

root cause of that and treat it.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Beautiful. I know in my own um, in my own personal journey and story, you know, whenever I came to you, I had seen, oh gosh, I don't know how many doctors. And there were every single time the answer was the same of uh either you need to be on birth control, we're gonna do an exploratory endometriosis surgery, or you're gonna be on Depo Prevera, or um, there's there's another pill that like puts you in menopause for six months. But I mean, it was, I remember um I ended up going to the ER at one point and thought, you know, my ovary is twisting in on itself. And and praise the Lord it wasn't. But, you know, I pretty much got told that if I didn't take this like fake progesterone pill, I was gonna end up with cancer. And there was no other way to treat hormones except for with birth control and just artificial hormones and things like that. And so whenever I found Femme and I found you, actually through Jason Everett's podcast, uh, my life since then has completely changed. Someone was saying to me today, you know, you keep losing weight. I'm like, well, you know, I I I I came to you, I think 320 pounds. 320 pounds, and I've lost gosh, I think it's like 130 somewhere around there. But um, so it is it has been absolutely life-changing. So thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Um I remember when I first saw you, Emily, it was such a heart-wrenching story because it went back to when you started your men see. It started, it started in Menark. You had symptomatology all the way back then, and now you were signed up for surgery in two months, and I had two months to help you figure this out quickly, right? And um, it was a great, a great case. And I often share your story as I teach other doctors uh when I'm going around the country and just teaching about femme or teaching physicians about femme. I'll often use your case because you had the best kind of classic, put it all together all the way from a young age until now, and all the things that you were experiencing just really were heartbreaking and signed up for surgery, ready to go. You were gonna have endometriosis surgery, and three years later, no surgery, and you're doing great. So it's just a great story.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Absolutely wild. And it's it feels like it's gone so fast, but also some days so slow.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Right. It's just health journeys are long, that's the hard part, right? There's no easy, there's no easy answer. It is takes a lot of work, and you've done the hard work. So kudos to you for doing that hard work.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Thank you, thank you. And so, I mean, I I just cannot help. Um I I've wanted to do this episode with you for so long. And you know, this is this is being released during NFP Awareness Week in July. Um, and something that was incredibly important to me just throughout my entire time, the years of trying to get this figured out and taken care of, was I was terrified that I would not be able to have children. And was just, you know, from a Catholic perspective, not willing to be on birth control, even though I knew it was okay for health reasons. But there was something really deep in my gut that said, it is just flat out not good, like physically,

– What NFP Is

SPEAKER_00 5:54

emotionally, mentally, you know, spiritually. And so I uh, you know, now that I'm now that I'm at a stage in life where um marriage is on the horizon and all of these things, having already been using FEM, not only for health purposes, but also like NFP is like going to be something I have to use at some point in the future. And so that it's like a two birds with one stone, and I would not have we wouldn't have known what was wrong if we weren't using the FEM protocols. Right.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

So exactly. And now you see that like so many women heartbreakingly so feel like they can't use fertility awareness-based methods or NFP because their cycles are so abnormal. And so it's not the method that's broken, it's really what's happening, the ovulatory dysfunction underlying is what's wrong. And so now, as you know, your chart is beautifully ovulatory, and you can now track your cycles very easily, and you will have children. And so it's just beautiful to see that actually there's an underlying issue causing abnormalities in the chart. Many people think they have to change methods, and we tell people all the time it's not a requirement to see us that you have to change and use them. You there's lots of good ovulation um detection methods, right? There's lots of great methods out there, and we encourage you to use whichever one you like and just see us, and we'll do our medical protocols, which are all evidence-based. So we have a research arm called the Reproductive Health Research Institute, and then a clinical side. So we have patients that we see in over 43 states, and so we're able to see and provide access to women almost everywhere, right? Even internationally, we're seeing some patients. And it's funny, some patients, if we don't have a license in their state, they'll drive over the border if it's a small state and go to the next one to see us from their car so that they can get checked, right? So it's great, it's good fun, and it's such a rewarding way to practice medicine, I have to tell you that. To be able to practice medicine in an evidence-based way that's also in line with my Catholic faith is life-changing as a physician. It's just so rewarding.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Yeah. Would you mind to share your story about, you know, how you came to that realization, um, both not only personally and on a faith level, but like medically.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Absolutely. Yes. So, Emily, I don't know if you know this background, but I was a pregnant teenager. So I was raised Catholic and I uh said, I'm not having sex till I got married. Well, I had this long-term boyfriend and he wasn't waiting and he cheated on me, and then I said, I'll show him my 17-year-old small brain, was just not very well formed. So I got pregnant the first time I had sex, and I was devastated. I actually almost had an abortion. I showed, thanks be to God, for a pregnancy center that my mom took me to who prayed over me and prayed for my baby. And I thought, wait, pause. Did you just say baby? I thought this was a clump of cells, right? So I I kept a release for adoption, open adoption, that baby. And her mother influenced me to become a doctor. Her her mom's a physician. So I have an open adoption with her. She's now married, has two kids. So I have two grandbabies from her. And subsequently, I was married 10 years later, and I have six of my own kids. Okay. But fast forward, I wanted to go into women's health because I wanted to help women avoid pregnancy. I wasn't a well-formed Catholic. I was really a cafeteria Catholic, right? And um I really had a strong faith though. I really,

– Fertility Science Basics

SPEAKER_01 9:38

at that time of 17, just putting that really hard situation, giving it to God and saying, hey, Jesus, it's yours. I can't carry this cross, and I know you can carry a big cross. So I united it at that time. I didn't know what that meant, but I did know that I could give it to him. And he's the one that walked me through to release for adoption and give me the strength to do it. So I knew I had this strong faith, but catechized, no, I was not catechized well in the faith. So I went into medicine. I loved Mother Teresa. I thought I want to serve the underserved, like she did. So I went into the underserved and I prescribed all sorts of birth control, thinking that was the answer to avoid teen pregnancy. And I thought it was just we did bad education, nobody was teaching women about it. And so I was doing that all the time. I did full scope family medicine, OP, delivered babies. They'd have the baby, I'd put them on birth control. They were there for a cold. I was like, Are you having sex? Let's put you on birth control. Anyway, three years into my practice, what happened is a beautiful grace, and I just started seeing such bad things. I started seeing weight gain, depression, headaches. One girl came in and she said, Dr. Kessner, you did this to me. And I said, What did I do? And she said, You put me on Dappa Provera when I was 12. And now I'm 17. And my mother has been selling me for drugs for the last four years because of you. And I was just like, Whoa, what did I do to this kid? Right. I thought that I was doing the right thing. I had her mom leave the room. That's what I was taught. Asked her if any was hurting her, no one was hurting her, she was safe. To explain to her that her mom just wanted to help her. And you know, it's kind of cool. You don't have to get your period. Oh my gosh. The stuff I said was heartbreaking, right? And I know that in medical school I just wasn't trained, right? And it's not till I got married and learned fertility awareness, because I got married in the church, that I was like, wow, this is great. So I used fertility awareness throughout my whole marriage, but I never told my patients about it. It seemed like it was Catholic birth control, maybe, and it was just didn't teach them about it. I was doing all the things. And after a while, they didn't want it. They did they kept saying, Dr. Kessner, stop. Like, I don't want this anymore. I've tried everything you've told me, has side effects. I don't want it. And, you know, even when they'd have an unplanned pregnancy, I'd send them for an abortion. So I was pretty broken. Okay. Long story short, found Matthew Kelly and the best version of yourself. Listen to that. Did the classroom of silence that he talked about, found the Saint Francis of Assisi prayer. Um, seek first to, you know, not to be loved, but to love and not to be understood, but to understand. And I just prayed that prayer before patient care every morning. And it changed my life because I felt the Lord was saying to me, don't prescribe birth control. And I was like, why would I do that? Why would he tell me to do that? And it wasn't until I went and talked to the priest in the confession line. I thought that's where you had made office hours with the priest. And I said, I'm not here for confession. I just wonder why God would tell me not to prescribe birth control. And the priest was like probably dumbfounded. And he's just like, Well, in my experience, when my boss is speaking to you, you listen. Ah, it's crazy. You know, fast forward, I stopped prescribing contraception really from a science perspective, but now I found my faith. So I realized the feeling I had as I left that confessional, that clean feeling. Like I didn't want to go in any more mud puddles. Like, you know, it was amazing. And so the next day I had to go to work and I do deliveries, I do birth control, all the things. And so I really had this crisis. And so I called in sick. I said, I'm not sick, I'm spiritually sick, and I didn't know what to do. So she said, I'll just cancel your patients, Dr. Kessner. And I was the, I was like the lead physician at the time, eventually the chief medical officer. They were kind of nervous, like this family doc who's seeing all of these patients is gonna leave, maybe, right? And so there was a lot of us there, and I was overseeing many people, and um, so they had this like panic moment, and I'm having a panic moment on my side. So I get on my knees and I'm like, okay, Lord, what's next? What do I do? So I went to confession. He absolves me of my sins, even though I said not to, that he does, and then it felt amazing. And then I said, okay, I went to mass at mass on a Monday at noon. The priest says he starts giving the homily and it's ending artificial contraception and abortion on a Monday. And I was like, oh wow, the Lord's really speaking to me. And then after Mass, these old ladies next to me kneel down, I can't get out. They're praying a novena to St. Anne to end artificial contraception and abortion. And then I leave mass and I'm getting up to leave, and I'm thinking, okay, Lord, I I hear you. You're trying to tell me not to prescribe birth control anymore. And the lady falls in front of me, and I pick her up. I say, I'm a doctor, I can help. She's like, Oh, it's just my knees. And then she looks at me and she says, Who are you? And I said, Well, I'm Dr. Kessner, and apparently I don't

– Hormones & Cycle Signs

SPEAKER_01 14:58

prescribe birth control anymore. And I need some resources. And she said, Well, I am the NFP coordinator for the whole lake shore, which this is a huge uh air, multiple cities, and she's the coordinator for this. It was definitely one of she goes, you know, there's no coincidences, right? There's only God incidences. I'm like, Yeah, well, I really believe that today, right? Today's the day that I really believe what you're saying. I'm like Thomas, I had to see it, right? So it was just incredible. And then after that, it's all history, right? And so I just had to figure out, and it wasn't until I spoke at the United Nations as a backup. I wasn't the doctor they wanted there. They asked me to come as a backup for the science behind fertility-based awareness methods. And it was the Holy See that wanted us to come and talk. Well, there I met the CEO of FEM, who's Anna Halpin. Now, this lady has an incredible story, so you should do a podcast with her sometime. But basically, she invited me to the FEM medical training. And it was there I realized, wow, like they have the corner on the market on the evidence. They have a research institute. I was very skeptical, but I sat there and everything had evidence. Everything had papers. And it was like, you know, I'm interested because there's papers and there's evidence. And when I went to do it in my practice, because I had so many Medicaid patients and underserved, their insurance paid for this big workup. And in this big workup, I saw all the things they said I would see. I saw insulin resistance, PCOS, hyprolactin, thyroid disease, obesity. Like I saw it all. And I was just like, oh my gosh. And I was able to treat it. So now I was able to treat the underlying issues, and women were getting better. So I immediately was just like, I wish I could do this on everyone, but I need to learn more. So I just kept bringing my cases and bringing my cases and uh keep asking, kept asking for help. So that's my goal now is just go to doctors and teach them this stuff because I can't see them all myself, but they could do the work. And then we can really change the standard of care in women's health. This isn't something you should have to see a femme doctor online, although we're welcome. We're you're welcome to see us. We love it. But we'd really love to have your doctor know this stuff, right? This is where the rubber meets the road is getting this as the standard of care in women's health. Man. Well, that's a long answer.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

That is that is absolutely beautiful. And I'm I'm so, you know, I'm so thankful that you've shared all of that. Um, and you know, talk something that comes to mind as we're talking about it, all of these like fertility-based awareness methods, you know, they have uh, or we have the three traditional NFP methods. So FEM is like its own method, correct? Can you talk a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Yes, sure. Absolutely. Well, FEM was born out of just necessity to um teach, like use it in a medical model. So it wasn't designed or initially for avoiding or achieving pregnancy. It was really because we needed to help with women's health. And so we tried to collaborate with other methods, and there was just, you know, whatever, there's politics, there's issues, and so we never were able to collaborate. So Pilar V. Hill is Dr. V. Hill, who's my mentor, who's the most amazing physician, right? She is the one that Anna met ages ago. And the connection was also a Holy Spirit moment, but she was one of the original researchers back with Dr. Billings and Dr. Odablad. Even I think Hilders was a student at that time that she was. And Kilders kind of went off and started the Creighton thing. And um, Dr. V. Hill stayed with the Billings doctors, Dr. Blackwell, Dr. Steinberger, anyway. And she was doing this research continually throughout her career in a quiet way, but like publishing things, publishing things. By the time I met her, she had already published over 215 articles. And her main message was ovulation is the sign of health. And anyway, so it was really because we needed a method. So femme is based on the science that all the giants gave us, right? So Billings is the big one. Um, that we had done a lot of publishing on it. Now, as you know, Symptothermal's published, Creighton's published, um, Marquette's published, a lot of people have published, and all the science is the same. So femme is just based on the same science that all these are. And then Symptothermal partnered with us for their temperature algorithm. Um, Mira's partnering with us from a hormonal monitor standpoint. Um, so now we've lots of partners. Um, and so really femme doesn't have any papers on avoiding or achieving pregnancy. We really have developed it in the medical model for women's health. So it's really about tracking health for women. Yes, it works to avoid pregnancy and achieve pregnancy both, but it's never been studied in that way. And we won't do that because it's not that we don't care, but we know it works for that, if that makes sense. What we really want to use it for is developing women's health protocols.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

So the next thing I wanted to ask you was about, you know,

– NFP Methods Overview

SPEAKER_00 20:24

talking about the science of this. Um, you know, why is ovulation that vital sign of health? And it's not just something that married couples need to track.

unknown 20:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

Right. Absolutely. Yeah, I'm so glad you asked me that question because um I think honestly, this is the question that obviously this is what we try to teach doctors. We think about vital signs, blood pressure, heart rate. This is one of the vital signs. If you want to read a paper about it, it's the Femme White paper. It's why we exist. And it's called ovulation is a sign of health. It's published in the Landsat. And basically, what we know when women ovulate, they have less cardiovascular disease. They have healthier bones, less chance of osteoporosis, they have less uh brain disease, like Alzheimer's, dementia, neurodegenerative disorders, they have a healthier weight, they're gonna be more metabolically healthy. Um, so it impacts so many areas of a woman's body that when that system is off, when there's ovulatory dysfunction or there's not ovulation, typically there's something going on. There's kind of we we say paint. So P stands for prolactin, A stands for androgens or hyperandrogen, you mean like PCOS, and then um IN stands for insulin, and then T stands for thyroid. So those are the main causes of underlying ovulatory dysfunction. And when those systems go off, you many doctors, as if they're listening to this, they know what the next thing is that happens. Diabetes happens, um, obesity happens, um, weight gain happens, hair loss happens, autoimmune diseases when there's hyperlectin, um, endometriosis happens when there's Hyprolactin. So heavy periods happen when there's thyroid disease or insulin resistance. Cancer happens when there's insulin resistance. And so you can start to see that this is really important. And it's really fun to watch pediatricians because the adolescents is the group of women that we really need to take care of. It's, and then if we can get them healthy before, in your case, before you get married and before you have children, this is how we can change the epigenetics of our culture, you know, all the time. How do we change this? How do we get off this train of bad health that we have in our country? It's treating the young people, treating the adolescents, making sure they're healthy so that intrauterine life for their baby is a very healthy one. That baby now is less, even though we can't change the genes they get or the chromosomes, let's say, we can impact how they're expressed. We can impact if they have errors or deletions or things like that by making sure mom and dad is healthy. So the sperm and the egg need to be healthy when they come together. If one is abnormal, so it's really not just about women's health either, it's about men as well. So we talk about women because they've been somewhat forgotten in the whole healthcare sphere because many research was aimed at men. And, you know, the cycle was just definitely a mystery. And you know, in the 50s it was like, let's just shut it down and it's gonna be great. Women aren't gonna have to worry about having babies and they're not gonna be so emotional and all the things that didn't really pan out, did it? We saw lots of weight gain, we saw lots of headaches, lots of depression, and that's what I was seeing in my practice. So um, yeah, that's the this the long answer. Ovulation is definitely the sign of health. And when we have it, when we shut it down, let's say with contraception, um, and in some cases it's absolutely necessary to shut down ovulation. Let's say we have a severely mentally ill patient or severe endometriosis despite multiple surgeries. There are times that we want to shut down ovulation. We're not gonna do it with a pill, we're gonna do it in a different way. Um, and so there's safer ways to do it, and you can use add back therapy so that you're protecting the brain, the bones, and things like that. So, in those rare cases where we need something, we wouldn't just use the pill, let's say. I tell people all the time, I don't go into places and say I don't prescribe birth control. What I say is I prescribe any medicine that I need that's good for my patient. And if I find that if I could find an indication where I need this, for example, right now I have a patient with endometrial cancer. Now she wants to have babies and she has none. So we have her on an IUD and she she uses NFP with her husband. They don't have sex during the fertile time, and this is controlling her endometrial cancer. It's thinning out the lining. She gets biopsies every three months. We're treating her underlying issues. As soon as she's healthy enough, she'll have that pulled. But she's using it in a moral way, and we're using it as a medication that we need for her right now. That's a rare, rare, rare story, right? But it doesn't, we can use it, but we do want to preserve ovulation if we can. So even though she's on IUD, because it needs to thin out the endometrium and get rid of that endometrial cancer, we still are treating the underlying health, and we're seeing ovulations on her chart. And she's avoiding sex during that fertile time. She doesn't want to have an abortion, right? She's not trying to have an abortifacient medication. So there are ways that we can use these medicines if we absolutely have to. Um, so I encourage young doctors going into medicine. Don't feel like you just have to be off of everything. Don't say you have you don't prescribe anything, right? Um, you really know that you're a physician and you're gonna learn the pathophysiology and you're going to take good care of your patient in a moral, ethical way.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

I am so glad that you bring that up because uh I had the opportunity and the privilege of taking um a Catholic sexual ethics class at the Theology of the Body Institute um a couple summers ago. And the biggest thing that stood out to me, and like this, I was saying, I was like, this is the air I breathe, um, was the John Paul II's quote: truth cannot contradict truth. And that has been, you know, as I've as I've studied for my masters for had however many years, four years, that faith and science do not go against each other. Faith and reason explicitly go together. And so hearing that example of like it

– Myths & Contraception Contrast

SPEAKER_00 26:48

is possible to do this both in the absolute healthiest way, but also in a very moral way that aligns well with our faith.

unknown 26:59

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

So that is that is so beautiful. Um, I'm really, really glad you shared that. Man. Absolutely. It's so fun. So I guess the last thing I would love to have you just speak on briefly is for anyone who's listening, um, whether it be, you know, they are getting ready to get married or they're already married, maybe they're struggling with infertility um or or or loss, um, whatever it may be, or maybe they are kind of at a place where I was at, where it's like, I know something's wrong, but no one can seem to help me. What do you want to say to them?

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Right. Well, first of all, I'm sorry for your pain and suffering, right? Like this is something that we we can't sugarcoat or we can't uh cover up the suffering. Your suffering is real and it's it's heard by our Lord, right? And uh we're with you in that suffering and we walk with our patience. But of course, I want to tell you that I tell people this all the time. I think the Lord has just blessed us with this science. And as you said, faith and reason do not contradict each other. And we have, as Catholics, we literally have this church that has stood on this truth for so long, despite our willingness to see it or understand it. It stood on it, and now we are realizing that the science is finally catching up with what the church has taught forever, right? And what the Lord has given us. And so um, let us see you and let us help you, right? Um, we know that what we do helps women achieve their reproductive goals. So if they're having recurrent miscarriages, pain, bleeding, um, infertility, we are gonna help that situation. But we also know that what the treatments that we're doing, not only will they help you achieve reproductive goals, but they go deeper than that. They go to the dignity of the human person. And we're gonna help you be healthy for years to come. It's yes, because you're healthy, babies will come. Um, most of the time, there's severe cases where, you know, we get them healthy, we do everything possible, but there's severe reasons, blocked tubes that we can't unblock, let's say, or severe infertility with like ovarian failure or severe malefactor azospermia. We're gonna walk with those patients, we're gonna get them as healthy as we can. And there's times where we were not gonna be able to help them achieve pregnancy, let's say. But they are gonna, we are gonna help them with their health. And majority of our patients will conceive or be able to use fertility-based awareness to avoid pregnancy when they need to do that for whatever's going on in their life, severe mental health issues or severe um diseases that they have that they really need to avoid pregnancy. They're gonna be able to do that because we've helped them get pregnant, get healthy. Um, and so I think, yeah, just let us see you. Um, that's why we have access in 43 states and growing from there, wait lists in multiple states, and I'm hiring multiple providers and teaching them. And so we have lots of great people on our platform. Um, and we have lots of support from our research institute with the physicians there that are also mentoring some of our providers. So uh Dr. Pohalos, Karen Pohalos is mentoring lots of providers. So, really just lots of doctors helping um to help other doctors learn so that you guys can get the care you need.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

Oh, thank you so, so much. Uh, as we mentioned in our prayer before we began, you know, Lord, we know that you care for us holistically. You know, you care for our body, you care for our soul, you created all of us and just the inmost being, um everything about us, he cares about all of it. So that's right. The the whenever I discovered Frim, I mean, I like it was a spiritual awakening too, in a sense. So yeah. I'm so thankful.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

So much pain, and you've been come out of that. It's just such a grace. You realize that every time someone says, Dr. Kessner, you're amazing. I'm actually not that amazing. It's really God who taught us this science, who gave us this science, and we're just doing that work. And so it's not something just I can do. Any doctor can do it. We are willing to teach them, and we just are so grateful that God's blessed us with the science.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

Amen. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. Well, I I again I so very much appreciate you being here and not only sharing just the the work that Femme does and uncovering and unveiling the science that is there uh that the Lord has just given to us. So, but also sharing faith and how this really just nothing is an accident.

– Church Teaching & Theology of the Body

SPEAKER_00 32:20

There's no no no coincidences, there's only God incidences.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

Praise Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Amen. Well, thank you, Emily. This is so important the work you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

So keep up the great work. Thank you, thank you. Uh, for all of our listeners, I will have Femme's website linked in the show notes. Yeah. Until next time, I hope you all have a blessed day.