Power of Words
How do you personally connect with mental health? Join us for conversations with community leaders as we highlight topics from words that inspire. Together we will harness collective wisdom to strengthen personal development and support positive relationships.
Power of Words
Don Goldman
Join Sondra & Jeni as they talk with Don Goldman about the joy of reading to his children and grandchildren and how they relate to their mental health and bring a sense of calm. He shares two of his favorite books: Where the Wild Things Are by Maurice Sendak and But Not the Hippopotamus by Sandra Boynton.
Show Notes »
Transcript »
Presented by the Kansas City Public Library & Jewish Family Services of Greater Kansas City.
Hi everyone, and welcome to our podcast, Power of Words. Thanks for stopping by.
Jeni Starr:Hi, I'm Jeni Starr, my pronouns are she her, and I'm the Health and Wellness Specialist for the Kansas City Public Library.
Sondra Wallace:And I'm Sondra Wallace. My pronouns are she her, and I'm the Director of Mental Health Programs at Jewish Family Services at Greater Kansas City. I'm glad to be back doing a program again with Jeni
Jeni Starr:Aww thanks, Sondra. Sondra and I have worked together on mental health programming for several years, and we're pleased to bring you our latest project where we talk with community members and connect stories through words that matter.
Sondra Wallace:We're excited to have our guests share a little bit about their mental health journeys and their love for Kansas City. We've asked each of our guests to share an example of how specific words have empowered, changed, encouraged, or strengthened their mental health and wellness.
Jeni Starr:We hope one or two of the words from our conversation today allow you to connect to words that matter to you.
Sondra Wallace:Welcome everyone to our Power of Words podcast, we are delighted that you're joining us today and we are even more delighted, or maybe not more, but just as much that our guest today is Don Goldman, and Don has been at JFS or Jewish Family Services of Greater Kansas City since 2007. He is the executive director and CEO. And during his tenure over the last several years, the agency has really tripled in size providing essential human services to more than 10,000 folks and families in the Kansas City area each year, which is pretty remarkable. I get the privilege and the honor of working with Don and am thrilled that he's here with us today to share some powerful words in his life. And important piece to know is that Don has two children of his own. He and his wife, his wife have two children, a son and a daughter, and they have two twin grandkids, which is really important to know as he begins to share his power of words with us today in this conversation. So welcome Don. We're thrilled to have you.
Jeni Starr:Welcome.
Don Goldman:Well thanks Sondra. I am so happy to be here and appreciate you asking me.
Sondra Wallace:Absolutely. So I shared a little bit about your role and what you do in the community as well as your family, is there anything else that you'd like for us or the listeners to know about you?
Don Goldman:I guess the only thing I'll say is I come to JFS not as a social worker, as a therapist, I come as a business background. And so this was a second career for me. So my learning about mental health, social work, things related to that comes at JFS. Not, not before, but one of the things I'll just say is that as part of her role, Sondra runs as the Greater Kansas City Mental Health Coalition. And that formation of which, which is more than a decade ago really piqued my interest in mental health and the importance of mental health, but also the power of so many things in our lives that relate to mental health that we almost don't think about, so when you brought this up as a possibility, it was intriguing to me and that interest has grown over the last decade.
Sondra Wallace:Yeah, absolutely. Well, even when we were doing kind of our pre-meeting, Jeni and Don and I were visiting. I was like, okay. I think even though you don't have that LSW behind your name, I think your lived experience over the last many years has really given you that understanding and that education, that lived experience, education of social work and mental health, so it's great to have been on that journey, even myself in the last four or five years. So thank you for that.
Jeni Starr:I'm always so impressed by all of the initiatives that Jewish Family Services participates in and leads in the Kansas City area.
Sondra Wallace:Yeah, this project of the Power of Words podcast Jeni and I started the ideation around it probably a year ago. And just as you mentioned on it is a different platform and it's a different way to think about mental health and the way that we can all bring healthy activities and healthy conversations to our daily experiences, which then just help to strengthen and grow our mental health. So glad that she kind of brought that in.
Jeni Starr:Yeah. Yeah. Well, Don, are you from Kansas City or what is your connection to Kansas City?
Don Goldman:So I am not from here. I moved here in 1988. So I've been here quite a while. I guess I moved when I was 28 or 29. So you can guess, you can calculate my age from that. But so I grew up in, in New York which is unlikely when I tell people that and grew up outside New York City. They're like, where's your accent? And I think I lost it sometime after college, if you hear recordings of me as a child, you could tell very much. I'm a New Yorker and every once in a while a couple of words will come out, but mostly I've lost that. So I feel like I've been here. We've raised our kids in Kansas City. So I've been here a long time, but I'm fundamentally an East Coast New Yorker. If you dig down deep.
Jeni Starr:Well, it's interesting too, how the Midwest will take your accent away. I am a Texan and so I've been here for 14 years and when I'm really tired or I've been talking to someone from home, you can hear it come out, but most of the time people wouldn't suspect.
Don Goldman:Yeah, I think that is true for the Midwest. Yeah.
Jeni Starr:Yeah.
Sondra Wallace:Well, I think we'll kind of jump into having you kind of share a little bit Don, about the words that you want to bring to the conversation today. Again, we had a little conversation last week and even as I had shared this idea with Jeni a month or so ago, we were both very intrigued or excited to think about the approach that you have with this idea and we're excited to learn and to hear what you all, what you have to share with us today. So what words did you bring to us today?
Don Goldman:I don't know if it is unusual, but I think when Sondra raised the idea with me at first, I'll be honest, I was a little baffled because you're thinking what, what words or you know, or you're gonna say, and they make you feel better, like the, that calm you and things like that. What struck me initially, and it's funny, I thought, well, that's just my initial idea. But every time I kept thinking about it, it kept coming back to me. And maybe this is true because I'm a new grandfather and spend my time when I'm with my grandkids. Not all the time, but a lot reading to them. I notice with them but also with myself, how the words of certain books calm them. And these are kids who are, you know, 18 months old. So often they don't understand exactly what the words are. They may have pictures to help them, but they don't understand it. But so many things about the books and I've just thought about it both calm them and intrigue them, and I think is such, so much a beginning to, to them dealing with difficult things in the world. So, I brought a couple of books that we've read together and to me I'm just very intrigued by the words of books and how it relates to the mental health and the calm of children.
Sondra Wallace:Yeah. Yeah. I think all of the guests that we've had with this program have approached this idea with kind of a personal lens, with whatever's kind of resonating and going on in their life, which is again, what makes it so, so palatable like that can keep people engaged because it is very relation based in the power the words have within those relationships of other people. So what are the titles of the books that you brought for us?
Don Goldman:So the first one is where the Wild Things Are, so this was by Maurice Sendak. And this was one of my son's favorites as a child. That's one of the books that really intrigued me. It's interesting. It's a complicated book about, a child who is sort of fighting with his, mother and yelling and how he processes it and how he uses his imagination to deal with it and calm himself, but processes it through, you know, takes this anger and processes it with his imagination and what's great to me is that you can read it to a 12 month old or 14 month old or 18 month old who you know doesn't understand it, but there's something about it that they do process.
Sondra Wallace:Yeah. Yeah.
Don Goldman:And some of that is just the words and the cadence but the other thing that I find remarkable and when my grandkids do it, especially one of my two not the grandkids, the other less, so he wants it again and again and again.
Sondra Wallace:Oh.
Don Goldman:And, and this one, his name is Asa, and he especially wants it again, and he calms himself a lot of times by sucking his thumb, which is not unusual, but he also holds his ear. And so I can tell when he's anxious and trying to calm, and when he does that, he will hand me the book. I will read the book, I will finish it, and then he will hand it back to me like I want it again. And he will do that like on the fifth or sixth time. And my son will sometimes say, you know, you don't have to keep, you don't have to keep reading it to him. It's like, well, he wants it. And I think part of it is he's learning it, right? That he's just wants it and learning the words and learning it, but it's not just education for him. He's also uses it to calm himself and to when he is not just unhappy, but just anxious or overstimulated. So I think it's interesting that, it's an educational thing, but it's more than that.
Sondra Wallace:Well, and just that at such a young age, he has so much self-awareness that he knows when you read it, that it does bring him calm. And I have experienced that sometimes we don't know how to have that regulation and that self-awareness enough to know that, oh, you know, when I drink some cold water, it really does calm me down. And he at 18 months, 19 months old, 14 months when he was even younger, was able to regulate that, which is so incredible and magical about our brain and development that early childhood has for all of us.
Jeni Starr:Yeah. Yeah. That ability to learn what soothes you and how you can feel better. For sure. And then it's nice when you have a grandfather who will continually read it to you.
Sondra Wallace:Yes.
Jeni Starr:As many times as you want.
Sondra Wallace:Yeah. Yeah.
Don Goldman:Well, I find it great. I mean, I love to play with them and play with blocks and things like that, but you know, these books to me are first of all, they're just wonderful. It's such a wonderful book'cause it's sort of magical and it has creativity about a kid's imagination. But even though they're simple books it's just so much fun to remember them. And remember when I read them 30 years ago to my son, so there's just so much meaning there. I don't know. I just love them. I, I have an endless appetite to read some of these books again and again, and I think I'm the one in the family, even though I'm not the only reader in the family, I'm the one in the family who has a tolerance to read these books again and again.
Jeni Starr:Well, it's interesting that you brought up that you read'em to your kids and then now you're reading to the next generation. And I wonder if you can remember a difference in how you felt then and how you feel now. Because I think when you're parenting and you're just in the thick of it, it might feel different than at this point in life.
Don Goldman:It does. I think the reason it's, it's become trite to say, you know grand parenthood is so wonderful and they're so easy but there's some truth to that because you love the time with your grandkids, you don't have to deal with the day to day of just exhaustion. I mean, you know, I, I think about my son and daughter-in-law, and these kids were born at 26 weeks, so they were...
Jeni Starr:oh wow.
Don Goldman:...like really early. And their first few months were really hard and I just think. After 18 to 19 months, the exhaustion. And while we didn't have our kids like that, it was still, we were too busy professionals with two kids and help. And so while you're reading, you're also exhausted.
Jeni Starr:Mm-Hmm.
Don Goldman:As a parent and we had reading time at the end of the day before bed, we would always read a story and we did that well after our kids could read themselves. That they still wanted us to read. And so that was a calm time of the day but it was when it was also you were also exhausted and...
Sondra Wallace:Mm-Hmm.
Don Goldman:you wanted to get the kid to bad, I mean. That's why I'll read it five times or six times because it's just a pleasure, you know?
Jeni Starr:Yeah.
Don Goldman:I just feel like I am sharing and I love the time and I don't have enough time with them and I hope they grow up thinking of me, not just this way, but if they could think of me as reading as, as at least, I mean, our, my son loves to read to them, so it won't be just me, but if thinking, oh, grandpa will read to us new books that...
Sondra Wallace:mm-Hmm.
Don Goldman:that maybe we can't read as many times with our parents. That'd be great. I just love to be at least one of the the adults that they know can read to them and maybe later talk about the more complicated stories that they'll come to me to talk about because of this.
Sondra Wallace:Yeah,
Jeni Starr:yeah, yeah. It could really open a door to. Very deep and meaningful conversations as they get older and start to understand more about what you're reading with them.
Don Goldman:Yeah.
Sondra Wallace:Mm-Hmm.
Don Goldman:Yeah. The other thing I was thinking about some of the books and Sondra and I were talking about a different book last week, but it's true, The Wild Things. What's interested about children's books are they obviously have to be meaningful for the children, but they also have to work for the adults.
Jeni Starr:Mm-Hmm.
Don Goldman:Because adults won't read them otherwise. And so the best children's books have to deal with the challenges kids are dealing with, but also deal with the adults on two levels. And so. I think people underestimate just, and, and it was the other book I was thinking of. I have Sondra Boyton's books, you know, of the others that seem like such simple books, but they entertain the adult and they deal with really more complicated issues than people might give credit for and it's just so impressive to think what children's authors, what makes great authors great.
Sondra Wallace:Mm-Hmm. When you were kind of painting this picture, Don of you reading the book with your grandson, I could almost hear in your voice as well that it's also really calming and really healthy for you as the adult, as the grandparent for your own mental health. Right? So it's kind of a double whammy it's for the child and it's also so beneficial or, you know, it's that generosity, giving your time, giving your cadence, giving your routines, all those things to your grandkids, which is so important for our mental health with that generosity of giving to others.
Don Goldman:No, I think that's right. I do remember despite the challenges of being a young parent with kids, I do remember snuggling up reading these books my son had this huge bear we called them Chicago Bear'cause we bought him in Chicago and, but he was really an FAO Schwartz bear and we would sit on him. And we'd sit on him and come and read these books together and appreciate them together. And I think it was calming for me. You're right.
Jeni Starr:Yeah.
Don Goldman:It was, especially at that time I was tired and exhausted, and this time even then was really special for me and I think did help me calm down after a busy day.
Sondra Wallace:Yeah. Yeah. Cool.
Jeni Starr:Yeah, for sure. Well, and I love that you talk about sort of the nuance in children's books because I think some probably are just surface and fun, right? But so many of them have really good lessons. And when Sondra and I each talked on the initial podcast about our favorites, I chose a children's book also that just had some deep meaning for me as an adult, and I didn't even read it as a child I read it as a child, I read it as an adult for the first time.
Sondra Wallace:Mm-Hmm.
Jeni Starr:But so many good lessons that you can share and pass on through those words.
Sondra Wallace:Mm-Hmm.
Don Goldman:Yeah. No, I think that's true. I think the challenge I had sometimes with kids was we would, my mother-in-Law, she was a librarian, and choose to be like, there are no bad books. A kid wants to read a book, you encourage'em.
Jeni Starr:Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm.
Don Goldman:But some books are better than others, right?
Sondra Wallace:Mm-Hmm, sure.
Don Goldman:And some are more thoughtful. And I remember when our kids had these books that were unimpressive. I can't remember now. Oh, Goosebumps. Or I shouldn't say this, but our kids had these Goosebumps books and they were really poorly written and not very interesting in doing them. And my kid was like, oh, let's do a Goosebumps. I was like, okay. I didn't, that didn't calm me, like, okay, that's fine, but can we, you know, do, do that this week? How about if we do some other, you know?
Jeni Starr:Mm-Hmm.
Don Goldman:We used to, my son and I used to love Animorphs and so we used to do that and
Sondra Wallace:Oh yeah.
Don Goldman:And so, and we did those together. So,
Sondra Wallace:Yeah.
Don Goldman:Yeah.
Sondra Wallace:Would you be willing to just read a page or two out of Where the Wild Things Are?
Don Goldman:Yeah, sure. It works well if I start from the beginning for this one.
Sondra Wallace:Love it.
Don Goldman:So I love it. So"The night Max wore his wolf suit and made mischief of one kind and another, his mother called him Wild Thing and Max said,'I'll eat you up'. So he was sent to bed without eating anything that very night in Max's room. A forest grew and grew and grew until his ceiling hung with vines and the walls became the world all around and an ocean tumbled by with a private boat for Max, and he sailed off through night and day." Good. That's, that's actually just, you know, like that seven or eight pages.
Sondra Wallace:Yeah.
Don Goldman:And goes from him and, yeah. And again, I just love that it's beautiful and it's creative and you'll see in the book, it goes on to just talk about this wild kingdom that he creates and lives in. And then at the end he pulls himself back to reality and process it. And, and even at the end he looks like he's done and now his dinner is actually there. And so it's just a great book. But it's also from an adult point of view, it's beautiful and interesting and from a kid especially, you could see how they could get older deals with them fighting with their parents, which is gonna happen.
Sondra Wallace:Yeah. Yeah. Well, I remember part of the conversation was that this gives you, I mean, and that book is what, 35, 40 maybe years old and that. It really is teaching coping skills, right? It is teaching you know, just like you said as a great author, how to navigate something that's hard or a short term escape, right? That you can have in order to reset and get back to where you need to be and part of the family it's just really important.
Don Goldman:Yeah. And deal with the fact that someone you love, you are going to fight with and they're gonna make you angry. And how do you deal with the anger? And come back and, you know, it, it does have a happy ending. Not all, all books have happy endings, but this one does have a happy ending, but it actually feels very, very grown up. It's interesting to me, my son told me he was reading this to his kids already. It's like, oh, I, I don't know that we read this to you, this young.
Sondra Wallace:Yeah.
Don Goldman:But maybe all they're seeing is the pictures now and the lovely pictures and the pretty rhyme.
Sondra Wallace:Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. Well, and I remember thinking, oh, this is a scary book. Right. But it's because we just look at that surface of it sometimes, and we don't really take the time to understand and to get to the heart of what the message is within those really powerful words that you're sharing with your grandkids.
Don Goldman:Yeah. And the other thing is, it's probably scary for a kid to fight with their parents or they're so close to but they will. And is it, and this would be true for real, you know, scary books, is it, is it good to process it and think about it and talk about those scary things?
Sondra Wallace:Mm-Hmm.
Don Goldman:At least at some level. So that you can deal with it.'cause the world has some scary things in it.
Sondra Wallace:Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Jeni Starr:Yeah, it definitely does. And to provide that example of a coping mechanism and then also a way to repair, how do you repair those hard situations, you know? How do you come back from that?
Don Goldman:Yeah. And at the end of this he gets to be sent to bed with no food and the end, his dinner is waiting for him. He comes back out of this dream he's having and his dinner is there and it's still hot.
Sondra Wallace:Mm-Hmm.
Don Goldman:So it's like, oh, it, it ends with a voice that his mother was mad, but now she provided the dinner and reconciliation can happen.
Sondra Wallace:Yeah.
Jeni Starr:Yeah. Well, and the book feels like it was more than a little short time, but if it's still hot too, the implication is that all of this happened in a very short span. And for a kid that makes a lot of sense, right?
Sondra Wallace:Mm-Hmm.
Jeni Starr:You know, all the things you feel in a short time span.
Sondra Wallace:Mm-Hmm.
Don Goldman:Yeah. I, I think the other thing I love about it is I used to daydream a lot as a kid, and this is sort of giving kids permission to daydream and to think and to make their own reality. And so I think you're right it was so long ago that it was created, but really, I think if you ask people, well, why do you like this book? You could just say, well, I just thought it was a neat book, or, I thought it was interesting, or, I like the pictures. But if you think about a little more beneath the surface...
Sondra Wallace:Mm-Hmm.
Don Goldman:...you realize. There are a lot of mental health issues and struggles that it's dealing with, and I bet that's true of a lot of children's books. Yeah.
Sondra Wallace:Yep.
Jeni Starr:Yeah, I think so too. It's interesting you mentioned the idea of like imagination and creativity because as we've done this podcast, that theme has come across in I would say most of our conversations, yeah. That that connection between creativity and mental health is so important and, and daydreaming. And I think sometimes we kind of try to condition people not to do that as kids.
Sondra Wallace:Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm.
Jeni Starr:And it's important to remember how important, like being able to just think and drift off and imagine things is a super important thing.
Don Goldman:Yeah. No, I think, I think you're right. As you grow up and you have an office and you're not allowed to daydream in meetings, but you're not supposed to, although many of us probably have, right? But, but I think as a child trying to think and process the world, I think it's really important for their creativity to do that. So I think it's interesting. Yeah.
Sondra Wallace:Cool. Well, and the other common theme, Jeni, I would say would be that they all have been connected to some kind of relationship with...
Jeni Starr:Yep.
Sondra Wallace:...that book reminds them of this or that text you know, repaints the image of this with someone. And as we know with the mental health and the need to be with other humans. That is so important. And so I love that that has been a very common theme across all of our interviews as well, or conversations with, with folks in the community.
Don Goldman:Yeah,
Sondra Wallace:It's pretty cool.
Jeni Starr:Yeah.
Don Goldman:The other thing I just wanna bring up, if I have a second
Jeni Starr:Yeah.
Don Goldman:The other book I picked, it's important to me because I raised a son who is an extrovert and a daughter who is an introvert. And I'm an introvert, and so, and a lot of times in our society, it's much more built around extroverts than it is introverts about
Jeni Starr:Mm-Hmm.
Don Goldman:How you should do that. And the other book I picked, which is a very different book and in some ways just seems like a silly book is like, but, But Not the Hippopotamus, which is by Sondra Boynton. But it, it has to do with this. You know, and it's beautiful words and, and great rhyme and beautiful and cool pictures, and it just seems like a fun book. But what I liked about it was, you know, the hippopotamus doesn't just want to go, he's, he, you know, introverts tend to be slow about joining a process and they have to think about it. Should I do it now? And usually that's how I am and I think that's how my daughter is. So I love the book because it sort of validates a different way of thinking about the world and thinking, okay, hippopotamus will join, but he's gonna take some time. Actually, she's gonna take some time to do that.
Sondra Wallace:Mm-Hmm.
Don Goldman:Because she's identified as a she.
Sondra Wallace:Yeah. Yeah. That's so cool.
Jeni Starr:Yeah, I think that's a really neat idea too. And I agree with you. I feel like I am an introvert, but I have roles that require me to seem extroverted at times. You know, like a podcast for example.
Sondra Wallace:Yes.
Jeni Starr:Might not seem like a natural fit for an introvert, but I love that teaching people that it's okay to give people space and time and don't count them out just because they need a few more moments or a little bit more time.
Sondra Wallace:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So good.
Don Goldman:And in my role, I'm a CEO of an agency. You know what? I can do this job as an introvert but it's understanding that it may be more challenge for me to do it.
Sondra Wallace:Mm-Hmm.
Don Goldman:And so, again, I love this book even before I had my daughter who was the introvert in doing it. But I think that piece of it is just something I don't know if this book did it itself, but maybe it helped. It helped bond us like, oh, we're the introverts in the family, and my wife and son, they were the extroverts.
Sondra Wallace:Yeah. That's so cool.
Jeni Starr:No, I just love the idea. And I love that you're sharing an example of like, you're, you're the top leader of your organization and that you can do that and be an introvert. And those two things don't have to be mutually exclusive.
Sondra Wallace:Mm-Hmm.
Jeni Starr:Because I do think that we see a lot more of that extrovert personality.
Sondra Wallace:Mm-Hmm.
Jeni Starr:In those roles sometimes.
Sondra Wallace:Mm-Hmm.
Don Goldman:No, no question. Yeah.
Sondra Wallace:Well, I think that we're heading to the wrap up point today. And thank you for sharing those incredible books. I love just as you said that they both have different messages, different approaches and have a little bit different meaning for your family and for you all. One thing that we do at the end of all of our podcast, Don, is we ask our guest to think about just right here, right now in this moment. What is your favorite word?
Don Goldman:What is my favorite word? Well, this is, this is hard. I have what is my favorite word? I don't know. I, I, I think I told you maybe this is the introvert thing. I struggle on questions like this.
Jeni Starr:You're, you're not the only one. This is like, we always kind of spring this on people,
Don Goldman:but I will just say, I I will. And it's not a word, it's just well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna change my idea here. I think, I think my favorite word right now based on the conversation is calm. I like, like the word calm'cause that's what we are talking about and...
Sondra Wallace:mm-Hmm.
Don Goldman:Yeah. And so it kind of makes me think of peaceful and right now I just think of the fond memories of reading and the calm that ensues from it.
Sondra Wallace:Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.
Jeni Starr:Yeah, that's, that's, that's perfect.
Sondra Wallace:Perfect. Yes. Yeah.
Jeni Starr:Perfect. Well, Dna, we're so grateful that you joined us today. And before we go though, we wanna ask, are there any resources or other connections in the community that you want listeners to know about? So maybe your favorite organization websites or blogs, social media.
Don Goldman:Well, I would not be a good CEO if I didn't start with the own organization Jewish Family Services, JFSKC.org great organization celebrating its hundred and 20th anniversary. But I am so proud of the work that we do in many areas. But especially in the mental health area both providing direct services like counseling, but even more doing the work that Sondra does which is reaching out to schools and community groups and groups like yours, Jeni, and library to provide mental health resources. So just want to make sure that people know we're there and, there to help and work with many partners like the library and so happy to do it.
Jeni Starr:Well, thanks so much. Yeah, we are so happy to be partnering with J-F-S-K-C and, just really appreciate all of the work that you do in the mental health space. As always, we wanna make sure everyone knows to check out our resources at kclibrary.org. And just to repeat jfskc.org those websites have lots of information about our programs and resources.
Sondra Wallace:Yeah. And Don thanks again for being with us this afternoon and until next time, we challenge our listeners to listen, react, and respond to the Power of Words. Take care.
Jeni Starr:Thank you. Thank you for listening, and we hope you enjoyed this episode of Power of Words.
Sondra Wallace:This episode is produced by the Kansas City Public Library and Jewish Family Services of Greater Kansas City with support from AmeriCorps.
Jeni Starr:We encourage you to explore our health resources and services available in the show notes
Sondra Wallace:and follow or subscribe for new episodes wherever you listen to your favorite podcast.