Never Too Festive: Parenting with More Joy & Less Mom Guilt

37. Building Trust and Transparency in Family Finances with Sarah Roller

• Elizabeth Hambleton

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Unlock the secrets to mastering family finances with insights from financial coach Sarah Roller on our latest episode. Ever wondered how you can transform your festive season spending habits or make financial conversations with your partner less daunting? We've got you covered. Sarah shares her inspiring journey from a career in tourism marketing to becoming a passionate advocate for financial literacy. Together, we explore the vital first steps in understanding personal spending habits and how these insights can shape smarter budgeting decisions. Gain practical advice on tracking your expenses to reveal the often-surprising truth about your financial health.

Navigating finances as a couple can be a minefield, but it doesn't have to be. We dive into the art of aligning on big-picture goals like retirement and lifestyle aspirations while keeping communication open and honest. Learn how to involve both partners in the financial planning process, encouraging compromise and shared decision-making. We also explore the fascinating impact of societal norms and childhood influences on our financial behaviors. Understanding these unconscious motivators is key to creating a financial system that truly works for your unique family dynamic.

Finally, we tackle the challenge of educating children about money in a way that's both enlightening and empowering. Discover creative strategies for managing household costs, such as involving older kids in babysitting, which not only cuts expenses but also teaches invaluable financial lessons. We emphasize the importance of transparency in money conversations with children to prevent the passing down of unhealthy financial habits. By prioritizing family values and fostering open discussions, families can enrich their lives with simple joys and meaningful activities, all while maintaining financial peace.

Podcast episode about paying kids to babysit themselves: link.

Connect with Sarah:
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Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to another episode of Never Too Festive. I'm your host, elizabeth Hambleton, and if you're like me, this time of year is a time when you maybe have spent a little more than normal, and, of course, you probably expected that. But there's always those feelings of am I doing it correctly? Have I planned? Should I have thought through this differently? And just the question of what's the right amount, how much is too much, how much is perfect? It and it's the question of what's the right amount, how much is too much, how much is perfect? It's a hard question. That's why I'm so excited to have our special guest today, Sarah Roller, who is a financial coach and will be diving in with us on all things financial planning, financial coaching and getting us ready to start off the new year right.

Speaker 1:

Hey there, mama, and welcome to Never Too Festive, the podcast where we celebrate the extraordinary in everyday motherhood. I'm Elizabeth Hambleton, your host and fellow mom, on a mission to help you rediscover your sparkle, redefine your style and reclaim your sense of self in the midst of motherhood mayhem. Do you ever feel like you've lost touch with the stylish, confident woman you used to be before kids? Are you tired of living in yoga pants and feeling like you've gone from thriving to just surviving. Well, mama, it's time to reclaim joy, creativity and style, while embracing the fabulous mom you were meant to be.

Speaker 1:

So, grab your iced coffee and join me as we embark on a stylish adventure together, because here on Never Too Festive, there's no such thing as too much sparkle, too much flair or too much celebration. Get ready to shine bright and live your most fabulous, joyful life, because you deserve it. Thanks so much for being here today. Yeah, great to talk with you, elizabeth. All right Now I would love to just know a tiny bit about you and how you got into financial planning, specifically with a focus on women and families.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So this is a classic pandemic pivot. I was in tourism marketing, which is not a good industry to be in in 2020. And I had just had my second daughter and then pandemic happened and was laid off and I had thought about okay, is this the time to make a shift?

Speaker 2:

The thing that was the other alternative career path that was always interesting to me was financial planning. I have always been kind of the money nerd. In the friend group or in the office, people would come to me with questions and the thing that I really had kind of been learning stewing on recently was that for a lot of my friends and colleagues, particularly those that didn't have a huge financial foundation, financial literacy, financial education I could give them what was kind of quote unquote good advice and either they wouldn't take it or they might take it. But I would learn in hindsight that it wasn't actually good advice for them in that moment, in that specific period of time, telling them to open a new credit card to get travel reward points. In theory, that's a great piece of advice, but not to the friend who has $10,000 in credit card debt.

Speaker 2:

So that really kind of inspired me that like, oh, there is so much kind of lack of financial knowledge, financial education, and for people who have a lot of money, there's a lot of great financial planners, financial advisors who can help you grow that wealth. But for people who don't have that foundation or kind of stuck in the nitty gritty of like I don't even know what accounts I should be opening, how I'm being told that I should save X percent of my income, how does one do that? I don't even know where my money is going. That was the piece that really inspired me to make this career pivot. So as a financial coach, that's really kind of where I live is more in the day to day with a focus to the long term, but really getting the nuts and bolts of your financial foundation in place.

Speaker 1:

Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I hope everyone has a fresh cup of coffee, because I probably have six hours worth of questions.

Speaker 1:

Just kidding, we won't make it that long, guys, but there's so much to unpack there, because I have seen this too in both my friend group and people I've worked with because I've worked as a consultant in, because I also do branding for anyone who listens and doesn't know that and so I've worked as a consultant in tons of different businesses and we're talking like from going public and I was in talks with the stock exchange to like tiny one-person shops and just like the financial literacy, too, behind business is so lacking.

Speaker 1:

And then you see that in people's personal lives and you're like, oh my gosh, this is crazy. I would just be curious to know what's like the number one problem that you see people or like mistake, you see people making that. If you were like okay, if you turn off the podcast at this one point, if you change this one behavior, you will be one step ahead from where you are right now, I think probably the first step that I tell most of my clients and would tell friends, family, anyone who's interested, is to, before trying to go all aspirational and starting a budget.

Speaker 2:

I know we're nearing the new year and that's often an aspiration for January that I'm going to start fresh with a budget, but just figuring out what are you spending currently. So tracking your spending for a period of time at least a month, three months is great, or even indefinitely, if you're on board for that, that can be. You know, getting a notebook and writing everything down, that can be effective. There's also a ton of budgeting software. Monarch is my favorite kind of go-to one that will kind of do all of that for you and then you can actually see where your money is going. I think it's really enlightening to see how much do you think you're spending and how much are you actually spending, and the little habits really do add up and see.

Speaker 1:

Once you can actually see what that number is, sometimes that alone can be inspiring to change how you're spending your money yeah, I can relate to this because I am married to an engineer and I was an art major, so I think that really is reflective of our personalities and I always lived within my means when I was single and I always knew like roughly how much was in my account, but I didn't track it in like the true financial planner sense of tracking it like day to day. But I like kind of had buckets and I was like I know I spend roughly this and like I stayed within them and I never had credit card debt or anything. So like it was like lazy people tracking maybe, but my husband has a spreadsheet for the 12 years that we have been married and he can tell you exactly to the cent what our Visa card was on March of 2013, for every single month we've been married, every single card, every single account, to the penny. And what I have found from this is, a that's a lot of work, but B importantly, the emotional sense of how we're doing more often than not does not align with the numbers and for me, that's because I think I have which I would assume we all have like a very emotional attachment to certain spending, so like we had some big health issues with our kids and I knew those were big bills and I like felt emotionally like that year was just tanked and like just one doctor it was like 16,000.

Speaker 1:

And I was like we're totally screwed, like this whole year is going to be in the red. But I had actually made a lot more that year and we were doing okay. But I had this very negative emotional sense of where we were. And sometimes it's the reverse. I'll think we're like pretty on track and then my husband be like no, you've kind of been spending a little more in this area. So like how often do you see that too, that we kind of have these emotional all the time, yeah, all the time.

Speaker 2:

Well, first I'll I definitely want to dig into that. But I'll say I am probably more your husband in my relationship. I am the tracker.

Speaker 2:

When I got married I realized I needed to kind of loosen the reins a little bit, because my marriage would not last if I required that level of detail, which is a whole nother topic too, like doing it between people yeah, right, and I think I think it's very common in a, in a couple, for there to be one person who wants it done one way and another person who is not interested in that at all, and so finding a system that like satisfies both of you and doesn't completely annoy the other person is really critical for getting both people on the same page. So quick tangent there. But going back to the kind of emotional feeling of how your money is going, not necessarily reflecting reality, is incredibly common, and I think that is one thing that can be really beneficial in tracking, even if it's not a permanent thing, but just to see or to go through like what is your net worth? And net worth, I feel like, can sometimes be a bit of a triggering word as it's kind of associating like your self-worth.

Speaker 2:

But yeah just seeing, like how much do you have in savings, checking, investments, retirement accounts, how much do you have in any sort of debts credit card, debt, mortgage, car? Sometimes I've seen many clients who are expecting it to be a really painful number, only to find out they're like oh, that's way better than I thought it was. Yeah, sometimes it's the reverse, but we have these reactions that are not necessarily tied to numbers or reality, and I think a huge piece with tracking it is that you can kind of fact check Is this is what I'm feeling in alignment with reality?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, for sure, and I think obviously everyone loves when they get the numbers back and they're like, oh, we're doing better. What do you tell people when they do get the numbers back and whether it's just, you know, the month is down, the year is down, like their life is down, whatever is down, like however bad that feeling is Like, how do you soften that blow or like tell what's like a positive step? We can be like, ok, we don't love this, love this, but like here's what we should do about it.

Speaker 2:

I mean, I think a really important thing is not get too hung up on what has happened in the past. I think it's important to take a moment and just reflect okay, how did we get here so that we can learn from that? But then kind of set that aside and like we are starting fresh today. This is where we're at. What do we want to change going forward? And especially, I would say most of the clients that I work with are in kind of like 30s and 40s, maybe into early 50s.

Speaker 2:

Personally, I like working with clients in that demographic because there is still time If you are 60 and are just realizing that it's a little bit bleaker than you realize, like there isn't as many things that you can do. But if you're in your 30s, if you're in your early to mid 40s, like there is still time to course correct. And what a gift to figure that out now, rather than kind of keeping your head buried in the sand for another five, 10 years and only to find out then that it's going to be that much harder to get out of that hole out then that it's going to be that much harder to get out of that hole.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely, which I think a key part of course correcting is you and your insert spouse, partner, whoever like, if there's someone significant in your life that you are kind of jointly navigating with so for me that is a spouse how do you counsel people about sort of luckily for me, I have to say, we are very much.

Speaker 1:

We're on the same page about the macro, it's the micro where we kind of maybe get crossways sometimes, and I think that's better. I would take that over the reverse, where we're agreeing on the micro but not the macro. Over the reverse where we're agreeing on the micro but not the macro, because I think there's two right. There's people that have like a similar long-term vision for, like where do we want to be when we retire, or like you know, do we want to pay for our children's wedding like yes or no, check a very large box, kind of like open-endedly versus.

Speaker 1:

But there's still like all the micro decisions, because if you gave anyone in america20, we'd all do different things with it. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

It's just a reality, like, how do you help people have productive conversations about being on the same page or navigating where they're not on the same page?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I think a really important piece is to first focus on the macro. What is that future that we're building? I think a lot of times we assume that our partner and I have a similar vision, but having a conversation what do you envision retirement looking like? I absolutely love when I get to witness the conversation with couples, because most people have never had a direct conversation of what do you envision? Are we traveling a ton? Are we downsizing and buying, you know, a condo?

Speaker 1:

by the beach.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, like there's so many.

Speaker 1:

We're not. I've told my husband if he buys an RV, I'm leaving him Absolutely no questions asked. I will not be a retiree in an RV. So if he does that, like it's on him.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but so figuring out like, what is that vision? Because sometimes people are. They think they're working towards a certain future, only to find out oh wait, you're dead set on retiring at 55. I assumed I would never retire, so I didn't feel that urgent to get a certain amount in a retirement account. I just don't even see myself retiring account because I just don't even see myself retiring.

Speaker 2:

So first of all getting kind of what that long term vision is, what is the future we want to be building. You know, as our kids get older and then as we enter into retirement and I think once and it's also just a more fun, positive conversation than what did you spend money on last week so, getting kind of on the same page and grounding this like joint vision conversation, then you can take a step back from that and say, okay, so this is what we want. What do we need to do to get there? Does that mean we need to increase income? Does that mean we need to reduce spending? Does that mean we need to? You know, instead of keeping our money under the mattress, we need to put it into an investment account, like what, what do we need to be doing differently to make sure that can happen? And then I think asking each other, like, how do you see that going? And I think it's fascinating.

Speaker 2:

I think if we for a lot of people if we know we need to spend less, let's just say that's like a given. We've decided as a family, in order to reach our goal, we need to reduce our spending a bit. I could look at my partner's spending and come up with some ideas where I think he is spending money that, like, I question the value of that. But if you were to ask him hey, we're trying to reduce spending by 500 a month, what do you think that might look like? She might come up with things that for him would be much easier sacrifices than the thing that I think is not adding value, because to him those are, you know, they're adding different value than I would have ascribed, you know as a separate person from him so letting each person kind of participate in where they think um kind of cuts or shifts in how you're spending um, rather than kind of dictating to your partner what that should look like.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, I'm sure we've had those conversations less recently, but we definitely went through a patch where we were pretty tight, like trying to keep things. Like we had two very small kids. Our house had gone up a lot in value, which is good in theory. Two very small kids, Our house had gone up a lot in value, which is good in theory. But like our taxes had gone up way more than we had predicted when we bought, had some health stuff with my daughter, so we had like a lot of medical and it is. It can get tense to be like do we need this Netflix for $9? And like one person wants it and one person doesn't, which I think, yeah, going in with a spirit of compromise is key.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I think also another exercise I like to do with couples is to identify what their top values are. Um, so there's.

Speaker 2:

You know different things on the internet where you can like go through like a deck of cards of like all of these different value words and you pick your top five and then share those with your partner and come to an agreement that like okay, as a family, these are the values that are most important to us, and if it's quality time with the kids and it's, you know, security and community, okay. Are our expenses in alignment with those four values as a family? And what expenses? What things in our budget? And by budget I don't necessarily mean restrictive, like diet, but like where are we spending money that might not fit within those? And if we're gonna feel like we need to cut somewhere, let's cut the things that are not in kind of our top values now I have a question that's maybe just nosy I don't even know if it's helpful, but like, do you find that most couples?

Speaker 1:

or like do you advise? I guess that people just put like all money in and then all money out, or do they we are just an all money in, all money out household? That like that is a hot question. I mean, I see different people do different things and then like splitting bills and like that feels very hard to do, sort of equitably, like because am I getting dinged for when the years I was at home with children and I wasn't making as much as him, like is that my fault, but we agreed to that, so I don't know, how does that work?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I mean I don't think that there is one kind of universal right answer for everyone. I think back in the day when people were getting married before either person had really started a career, no one had any income or assets. Everyone kind of combining all in one pot was really kind of simple and straightforward and people are getting married later and later in life and they have more routine and habit and systems in place.

Speaker 2:

They have assets one or value yeah, I think it does get more complicated, especially if you have, um you know, a, if you're paying child support to a previous relationship or alimony to an ex-partner. That is usually a like, maybe keeping it separate. I think there's a stronger argument in that situation. I think for a lot of people kind of a hybrid can be effective where, like, we figure out what our joint family expenses are and okay, all of our housing, food, groceries, netflix, insurance, that's going to be X amount.

Speaker 2:

And then we decide a certain portion of each of our incomes goes in to cover that, and then we each get to keep a small kind of allowance or something that like can be our own money. For some people that can be effective. Yeah, I think. For parents, though, the like all in, like everyone's money is all just kind of family resources does add a level of simplicity that yeah again, I'm not going to say one is better than the other I think there is.

Speaker 2:

I think it. I think having all money kind of go into one pot makes it a little bit easier to be a unified force towards whatever future you're building, if people have separate money.

Speaker 2:

I've seen a lot of kind of complications of, oh I thought you were investing a certain portion, like didn't agree to that and you're not now I have this huge retirement account that I've been sacrificing my personal money to make sure that we're building this future and you've been buying lots of like hobby things, right, yeah, and insert whatever frivolous thing that is right either shoes or, yeah, golf rounds or whatever yeah, exactly so I think I think having everything all in one adds a level of kind of yeah, team cohesion, transparency, that and you mentioned to the like, especially if one parent is staying home, if one parent's career kind of becomes the secondary career, the person who I'm not going to go for the promotion because I want the job where I can stay home, where it's OK if I need sick days more frequently, like having your income be reduced, I think does make it a little bit easier. If it's well, we're just pooling all of our resources together anyway, right, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, because that's definitely been. It's not that like I'm not saying we're the paradigm of ideals or anything, but like kid's school called yesterday and was like hey, your daughter's sick, please come get her. So I had to leave and like stop what I was doing and get her. But I don't, which is fine. I'm more flexible, but I also don't get like 401k match because I work for myself. So, like you know, there are benefits obviously to having a more structured job, if you're just looking at it financially.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So, if one person's career. I see a lot of couples who have done things separately and then it's when they have kids that like really emerge in that. That's when sometimes kind of combining or at least doing a hybrid, where we're putting a portion of our incomes in, can be, you know, logical. I've also seen a lot of dynamics, and I think there's a lot of gender dynamics at play. I've seen quite a few female clients who are feeling insecure about their financial contribution. They earn less than their partner, but they have some kind of ingrained insecurity. Maybe they're coming into the relationship with credit card debt or they just don't feel as financially knowledgeable, and so they are really trying to be an equal contributor to the relationship.

Speaker 2:

But in order to do that an equal contributor to the relationship, but in order to do that, in order to put 50% into the like shared household pot it means that they don't have enough in their personal account to pay for their you know life If you're, if we're both putting in, let's say, 4,000 a month into the shared pot and that leaves me with 1,000, at least you with 7,000, like, oh yeah, you can have this fantastic, luxurious life, life, and I'm struggling.

Speaker 2:

I feel guilty getting a haircut because, I don't have the funds to do that. So I think if you're doing the kind of hybrid or even separate, a percentage of income tends to be a more equitable way to approach that, although that also gets complicated. Then if one person does have other obligations child support from an ex or a former relationship, credit card debt, medical expense you know, if one person has a chronic illness and they constantly have a lot of medical expenses, does that take away from their like you know personal spending, or do we?

Speaker 1:

yeah, so it it's all complicated, there's not it is complicated one, I think too, like really, the underlying thing that I'm hearing is just like we all bring so much emotion and expectation to all of these things. Like I mean, for us we throw medical in like hey, you're a member of the family, you gotta stay alive, like that's in, like hey, you're a member of the family, you got to stay alive. Like that's in like household, like we would pay for our children. You know, my husband actually needs a surgery right now and he's like I'll put it off till like next year because of health.

Speaker 2:

And I'm like you need that dude, like you need to do it because he's the type it's scary to have these conversations, especially in a newer relationship or a relationship If this is just a really uncomfortable topic, which it is for a lot of people, a lot of times people are hesitant and reluctant to bring these things into the open, and a huge, I think, influence is like the dynamic that your parents or your family of origin had.

Speaker 2:

I think we tend to just replicate whatever that dynamic was. Or sometimes, if you saw that it was really like unproductive, you might try to do the exact opposite.

Speaker 1:

I'm an opposite, but I think I've gone too far. Maybe.

Speaker 2:

Right, you're reacting to it, whether it's good or bad.

Speaker 2:

It's a reaction to what you saw. Right, you're, you're reacting to it, whether it's yes, oh yeah, it's a reaction to what you saw, and I think I think we often kind of assume that everyone's working off of the same playbook in terms of, like, how it should be handled in a family, and if we don't have these transparent conversations, it can lead to a lot of conflicts and miscommunication. So I think another really critical step for couples is to talk about what their parents did with money, how their parents made financial decisions, what they saw or what they heard or what they didn't hear but like could tell what's happening yeah, yeah, which is almost the worst, right, yeah, and even if it doesn't change how you do anything, just understanding that like, okay, my partner keeps doing this thing, that seems so illogical to me.

Speaker 2:

But now that I understand that that's what his dad did or her mom did, or whatever, I realize why they're doing it. And it's not that they're an idiot, they just had a different model growing up.

Speaker 1:

And now, with that understanding, we can figure out a way that we can approach it, where we build our own system that works for us that, like you know, the ceo is worth more than the you know manufacturing guy, which I'm not saying that's true, or we should all believe that but it's like. That is how society, I would say, rewards people, or perceives people that it is like well, this job is worth fifty dollars an hour and this job is worth ten dollars an hour, or whatever it is, and that I think there's so much emotional, just context to like am I worth this haircut or this dress, or like, and what is something worth Like? Is a dress ever worth $500 or is there no dress on earth that would be? Is it worth it to you? Is it worth it for your birthday? Is it only worth it for your wedding? Like this, like this idea and like it. It's gonna be so different for everyone and we are bringing so much baggage to all of the world.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it is. I mean, I, especially with parents, I find although actually with everyone. I find it fascinating. There are some things that we will spend money on without a second thought. Of course we'll spend money on this there's no reason to evaluate this right and then other things. We will hem and haunt for months before making a purchase. The thing that you indulged in without a second thought could be a much bigger ticket item, but for some reason, you, your family, our culture, society has given you the message that, like this is a good expense, this, this has value. You should spend on it. But then this other thing.

Speaker 2:

You should spend on it, but then this other thing you deserve it frivolous yeah this other thing is frivolous, self-indulgent, you shouldn't spend on that and like there is so much baggage tied to that. The one that I see so often with families is paying for a house cleaner. I see so many emotions like they will justify, without any challenge, obstacle, so many expenses. But to justify a house cleaner is like really challenging to come to that conclusion that you deserve that and that, like you can spend X amount on that. Meanwhile you'll spend double, triple that on takeout without you know, because that's food and you need food.

Speaker 2:

But a house cleaner feels like indulgent, and then yeah, luxury You're employing someone else to do something you technically couldn't do, and there's a lot of baggage there too. But yeah, I think it's so fascinating to kind of question what things you feel permission to spend on, and especially, again, as a mom. I think there's so many things we will spend on for our kids and you know, some of them are things that like yeah, like that makes sense that you would want good quality food, education, things like that for your kids. Some of it is more frivolous, you know toys and experiences and competitive sports teams and stuff oh yeah, that's a huge expense that some people will do without.

Speaker 2:

Like it's for my kids, so it's good and I will not question it. Meanwhile, you know, god forbid I go get a massage that feels so self-indulgent and do I have permission to indulge in myself? I should be, you know, saving every resource available for my kids, right? I mean? Yes, to an extent I can understand that line of logic, but I think understanding that like yes, you can indulge in yourself sometimes too, is a really important concept.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, I have to say I think I'm a flip-flopper on that, in terms of I think like I'm sort of a pendulum that swings and I'll be like no, I deserve this, and maybe I'll go get a massage, but like rarely. Or I'll buy like a nicer dress for an outing or like a bigger you know, like we have a family wedding coming up and like I'll be.

Speaker 1:

Like no, I want to look nice for a family wedding, like in my immediate family. Like so I'll kind of swing, like no, I deserve this too. But then other times I can totally be that person where it's like I've been putting off, you know, like something for my own health care or something, but I wouldn't ever put my kids health care on yeah um, so I don't, I could, I guess.

Speaker 1:

Is that normal too to people? Do you feel like people tend to go one way or the other, or like kind of it just totally depends?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I mean, I think it depends. I also think there tend to be patterns, um in. I mean you meant you gave the example of your kids health care versus your health care. I think there are certain things that like okay, I've internalized that like, yes, it's okay to indulge in this for me and that feels like acceptable.

Speaker 1:

But then this other thing, for whatever reason, that one feels like more too much, I think it's nice for me like, like, this is like a $5,000 thing that I need, versus like, oh, this is $100.

Speaker 2:

Right, yeah, yeah, and that can definitely price, can definitely be a factor in that, for sure.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I guess you know the hard thing too about budgeting is, like you know, life happens. None of us have a crystal ball and in my life it's been mostly health things that were kind of the surprises that were like really big to get. We've had some like weather events. I'm in texas and where we've had, you know, big insurance claims because like a crazy microburst hit the house I mean a new roof and you know, like like stuff, it's like you can't like a tree fell on it, like what are you gonna do?

Speaker 1:

Um, I know you help people plan for that unexpected because I like I like I put my parents were very up and down with money, um. So like instability was like the key theme of mine. So I know that I can overcorrect by being very hesitant and, uh like worried about instability. So I am curious because I know other people who've grown up in homes, for whatever reason, where things weren't always certain. That can be such an emotional thing to plan for and I know it can cloud what would be, you know, considered logical judgment of like.

Speaker 1:

This is how much you really need to save, or this is like you would have like quote, unquote enough in your emergency fund, but still feel, feel, and you hear these stories about things like NPR did one a couple years ago and it was like one crisis away and it was I don't remember the numbers, but it was like you know, eight out of ten Americans are one crisis away and they qualified a crisis as six hundred dollars or more and I was like what that's a crisis, that's like tires, like a crisis is like six thousand or more yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean. So I think that that volatility in expenses, financial stability, is particularly stressful for I mean everyone. If we all, when we talk about budgeting, we in the broad sense we're talking about like, hey, what are your monthly expenses? But they're never consistent. Yeah, some are consistent. Sure, we can plan for those.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, your mortgage or whatever consistent, yeah, some are consistent.

Speaker 2:

Sure, we can plan for those, but yeah, you're more. Yeah, the things that fluctuate are the things that derail people most frequently. And I know a lot of my clients will say can I afford to go on vacation this year? I have five thousand dollars in my checking account. Does that mean I can spend it on insert whatever non-essential thing that would add a lot of value to our family's life? Or am I screwing myself by spending that because there is that crisis?

Speaker 2:

that's going to happen in three weeks and I will regret not having that money available. And so I think a really kind of critical skill is trying or learning to figure out and anticipate those unexpected or less predictable expenses. And some of them are going to be things that, if you actually just take the time to like map out when those irregular expenses are. Okay, we know that, like maybe your property taxes is a big hit every year and that comes in the same month.

Speaker 1:

Right, but we're always surprised by it.

Speaker 2:

Or it is December, it is Christmas, Right, Are you just now figuring out? Okay, how are we going to it at?

Speaker 1:

the end of.

Speaker 2:

December. How am I going to pay off this credit card bill that I just racked up? You could figure out. This is a perfect time to do it. How much did I spend on Christmas this year? Can I look at the credit card statement and like, go with the highlighter? Okay, $2,000 this year is roughly how much we spent on Christmas. If I put $200 into a savings account starting in January, and I did that every month, I would have $2,400 that I could spend towards Christmas. And now there isn't this like crisis of how do I pay off the Christmas credit card.

Speaker 1:

I know people who use their credit card points for that, like they save points all year, and then they get the gift cards and like whatever they have is what they have yep yeah.

Speaker 2:

So figuring out like, okay, what is the low hanging fruit, what are those predictable things, that just taking a little bit of time to kind of anticipate. Okay, let's see, we usually have to pay for summer camp yeah, deposit in january february, that's coming. Let's not, you know, be caught off guard by that.

Speaker 1:

Let's make sure that's always a big one that's always a big one.

Speaker 2:

Are there vacations? Usually you're. If you're going to go on summer vacation, you might be buying the flight in March or something like that. What are those things that like are kind of predictable within the calendar year when they're going to hit? If at least you have those like mapped out and you have a plan for how you will cover those, that makes it a lot easier. And then what are the less predictable? But, like you know, eventually they're gonna happen.

Speaker 2:

Like, if you own a car, there will be car maintenance maybe it's not anything, or a house you're yeah, or your refrigerator will go out at some point yeah, like, do you, are you gonna have some medical expenses of car expenses, some home repair expenses or any other thing in your life that, like, eventually it's going to need some sort of maintenance and that maintenance might be more than a couple hundred dollars.

Speaker 2:

Let's assume that's going to happen. Buckets or sinking funds is another term, where you just create a separate savings account and you just funnel, you know, a set amount into that $100 a month into that account so that when the car breaks down, okay, I've already got $500 or $1,000 ready to go for that. And then, yep, it sucks that I need to spend that money now, but the money is there and I don't need to stress about how to plan for it. And even if you don't do the like dedicated savings accounts for that, just mapping out what are all of the like non-monthly expenses that are probably going to happen this year, and let's assume that we need to cover those somehow. So our month-to-month spending just needs to be at least a thousand dollars less than our income.

Speaker 1:

So that we have the room to handle those.

Speaker 2:

I mean because every month there's something. So right, I was just thinking that, assuming there's a ton, yeah yeah, that's a lot um, and most of those happen for most people in a given year to some extent, yeah absolutely.

Speaker 1:

I mean if you buy sort of one householdy thing like one appliance or one repair one like plumbing issue or whatever, and then like one car thing, like at least tires or yep, I don't know engine, whatever things happen, you know drivetrain, all that stuff is, so yeah, when it hits, and then yeah, like definitely summer camp. I feel that one in my soul because I have two kids and those have gotten hefty they are, yeah, and especially if you're paying for child care throughout the year.

Speaker 2:

So if you're paying your like February child care bill and you're paying for summer camp, like that's a big hit all in one month yeah, who worry if your kids are old enough that you're not paying child care anymore and you've kind of eliminated that from your budget?

Speaker 1:

and you're like oh wait, I need two full months of these, like 10 weeks in a row of summer camps. Um, which is funny, just like for anyone listening about financial if you have middle grade kids, like early elementary to middle school, and you work from home, I actually pay my children directly for their own child. I pair my children to child care themselves in the summer.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I like that no, much less expensive.

Speaker 1:

I pay them each 15 a day to be their own babysitter and they're on a schedule where they like play together first, you know, and they play separately and then they play together. Then they we have lunch. They can have one hour of screen time, then like play together, play separately, and then I'm usually done by then. And people like, oh, 15 a day is a lot and I'm like you clearly haven't seen summer care. Yeah, that sounds like a bargain, it's a huge bargain. And then we take that money and I have like a little account on my phone of like summer money for each person and we put it into money like stuff we would have bought anyway. Let's not lie like because I they can use that money to buy activities and games and toys and books to do during the day during their like play time. That, yeah, and then it also helps teach financial literacy for kids.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, because just gonna say that's a fantastic opportunity to give them money, that they have some control and more than they over like it's not just like five dollars, they can wrap up like 100 or 150 dollars and then they always get weirded out by if the other person has a lot more than them. So it's kind of balancing, learning to spend in a healthy way and learning to save because you got to do both in life. Like you can't be totally conflicted anytime you spend money or you're like you know you're never going to go on vacation if you can't spend money ever. So it's like working on that emotions of saving and spending. I don't do it the whole summer because I think that's too long, but I can. I alternate weeks where I'll do a summer camp and then a like watch yourself week and then a summer camp and then maybe a vacation, a watch yourself week. So then we only have to pay for like three or four weeks of camp yeah, I love this.

Speaker 2:

I'm taking notes.

Speaker 1:

I, my kids are eight and four, so not quite there yet, but um're close though, if you have one kid who can read, I do say you need a kid who can read, and it depends on the length of your workday.

Speaker 2:

An eight-year-old could do this. I think, yeah, we might need another year or two for a younger one, but I love this idea and I think giving kids access to money to make mistakes is huge, because the mistakes that they will make when they're earning $15 a day, like you might roll your eyes like, oh my God, that's such a dumb purchase. Why are you doing?

Speaker 1:

that.

Speaker 2:

But let them do that so that when they're 25 and have a real paycheck, they've gotten that out of their system, they understand the repercussions of an impulse buy and they don't do that with, like, the impulse car they got because they finally have a paycheck and think they can and it's funny because they go through the whole range of emotions that we do, except in the dollar section like I really want this hundred dollar lego.

Speaker 1:

should I save it for two or three weeks and get it? Or do I just want like 10 000 crowns because I can get more of them and I like more. You know, it's just like. So there's a a lot there. I actually have a podcast episode about it. If you go back early, I'll put it in the show notes from the summer and it's actually really good because I think you know a lot of what we've been talking about is that we bring unhealthy or healthy spending habits from our parents and as long as we don't even understand them, yep. And the more we kind of create scenarios we can talk about them with our kids, the more we see like we can build those healthy habits yes, I would say.

Speaker 2:

Quite a few of my clients are people who their parents avoided money conversations and tried to protect them from the pain of money as young adults. Their credit card balance that they racked up in college and early adulthood were paid off.

Speaker 2:

Their parents didn't talk about money at home and just like kind of indulged in a lot of things for them. So they didn't have to have the pain, pain of like I have this limited amount of money, what am I going to do with it? So yeah, I think that giving kids the opportunity to make mistakes and have conversations and you can, like, help them unpack those emotions is such a huge gift to the future adults that they will be yeah, and it's a gift to yourself because you're not paying $700 a week.

Speaker 1:

A wonderful bonus, yeah, parking up, but which is what it costs here? I mean it's a gift to yourself because you're not paying $700 a week A wonderful bonus yeah. Parking up, which is what it costs here. I mean, it's like $350 a kid.

Speaker 1:

So I'm not a money expert, but that's my one tip for it Pay your guests to do stuff and even like we do that with, like we don't pay for everyday chores because we tell them like hey, you got dinner, which actually funny. My favorite punishment which I don't know, I know punishment's not trendy my favorite consequence for my children is that we say that like your kind of roles, like your responsibilities and your privileges are tied and that's true for adults, but that's true for kids. Like yes, mommy could go to anthropology and buy herself whatever she wants, like off of her credit card, because that's what having a credit card does for you, but then like the responsibility to pay it off would be there. So like I have the like option, but I also have the responsibility and same with all the things, right. And I say that for the kids.

Speaker 1:

You know, to your age and mature and whatever, sometimes my kids like to mouth off and try to be a little older than they are because we're hitting that jolly tween teen stage.

Speaker 1:

And so I was like you know, if you think you're an adult and you're smarter than an adult, then like that's cool, then you can just be an adult for the day. And um, I had my child be like wait, we're gonna do the same thing all day. So he had to do work with me because I was working, so he was working, and then he had to pay for his lunch and dinner. It felt like no one gave me this lunch and dinner. I had to pay for it. So he had to pay me like three dollars for each meal. But even just the idea that like things don't come out of thin air, yes, yes, which is hard, because I mean we do want like abundance and like I don't want them to feel guilty, but I also want them to respect it. I've had such a hard balance, I think as a parent it is, and I mean again from my like snapshot of what I see of adults.

Speaker 2:

Um is, I see a lot of adults I don't think that this is necessarily everyone in society, but a lot of parents that I see when they started earning an income, all of the like, the food and the like boring stuff, the bills was all covered by their parents. So the money that they earned, at least initially, was for fun things. And that was like when they started earning a paycheck. Maybe it was just at 16 or you know, at a time where it makes sense that the parents are paying for the boarding responsible things, but there was this ingrained concept in their head that money is for the fun thing.

Speaker 2:

So if I'm earning, whatever my paycheck is, that's how much like fun things I can afford. And then you get to adulthood and there's all these other boring things that are sneaking in there and you start overspending because your brain is still kind of fixated on how much you earn is how much like fun you can afford.

Speaker 2:

Um, so I do think that cluing your kids in at least before they leave the house, as to like what does it cost to run our household, and that if you're wanting to replicate this at some point, like this is how much it costs, and you don't necessarily need to get into the nitty gritty of everything, right, but just helping them see that, like there's a lot of things that we're paying for that you may not realize.

Speaker 1:

And as an adult, you will have to pay these. When we because we, you know, we just have been in the holidays and my kids will be like, is that expensive about something, they'll just be like, oh, this lego's 100 is that expensive. Or like this sweater is whatever, we'll just say everything's under the sweater is 100, this lego's 100, this I don't know bike $100. And they'll say, is that expensive? And it's such a tricky question because, um, I don't know.

Speaker 2:

It depends like privilege, wrapped up in that way more complex expectations like and is it expensive for that item?

Speaker 1:

is $100 a lot of money, just like existentially like? Well, you know that it varies. If you got a house for a hundred dollars, like what the heck happened, versus if I paid a hundred dollars for a hamburger, like also what the heck happened. So it is. It's so relative to what the item is and, yeah, your personal valuation of it, like where it came from, the quality perception it's. There's a lot to unpack with all of this, yeah.

Speaker 2:

I was just thinking um we. I was in the car with my kids the other day and we drove past a homeless person and my four-year-old asked like oh, is that you live in the?

Speaker 2:

Bay Area there's a lot of homeless people yeah um, and so she asked if that was a homeless person and I said yes, and she asked why and I was explaining that it's really expensive to have a house, um, and that's not a privilege that everyone just automatically gets. And she said, oh, is it like five dollars for a house? Granted, she is four, she's right. Very limited concept of money. At this point, um, and my eight-year-old laughed at her and chimed in with straight oh, silly little, you know, doesn't understand the world. Uh, classic big sister. Um, and said, no, a house is way more expensive, it's like 500 for a house.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, kids don't have a concept and at that age, like they're not going, they don't need it. Helping have that dialogue of like 100 for legos is the equivalent of how many ice cream cones. Or, right, we went to a restaurant for dinner and that cost a hundred dollars for our family of four. Like, kind of putting those into context. And you know the yeah, how different costs are related to each other. Or we paid x for just for electricity in our house this month, like, yeah, these are all right the same amount of money.

Speaker 2:

How much value are you getting out of each of these, and does that change how you want?

Speaker 1:

to choose to use. My kids were shocked the first time they realized that water wasn't free. They were like it doesn't just come when. Like well, it comes in paper and they were like wait what?

Speaker 1:

yeah, no, it is. There's so much there and like I think we just have to accept that we're not going to be perfect, like our own, yeah, flaws are going to come out, our own insecurities, our own fears are going to be triggered, and sometimes that's just parenting, and you know, we need to keep the therapists of 2040 in business, so we have to scar our children somehow.

Speaker 2:

Well, and I think that compared to you know, if your parents didn't talk about it and it was a taboo conversation in your house, just having it be a more open conversation in your house will make it so that if you say something that like later you're like that probably wasn't the best thing to say you can have an ongoing dialogue and it doesn't need to just be a one-time conversation member says something yeah, that's another thing like, or just a friend, you mean the, the, I don't even know how to say it.

Speaker 1:

It's just like all of the opinions about money that you're exposed to. Yeah, um, and I actually ran a food bank for a couple years. Um, I was like essentially the director of this food bank and my kids would have to help me pack the bags because I needed help and it was at through their school, so like they were like delivered to people that they could see and knew. Um, I mean, you weren't supposed to know, but like my kids aren't idiots, they packed the bags and they could see the bag and like you know, whatever connect those dots? Um, and they weren't babies. So, uh, you know, like they have that sense of like there is this option existing and like we go to the grocery store and choose, so that's an option because we do it, you know, and then like so they know that there are different options or levels and you know it does, I think, create confusion in kids and sometimes it's hard to know what to say.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, and I think for a lot of parents, probably even more so with, like, our parents' generation in those uncomfortable situations it's easier to just not talk about it. But I think, kind of sitting in that discomfort and having the conversation anyway, so that you can be the one to kind of control that narrative of, yeah, there's huge inequities in the world. We're privileged to have these benefits. There are people who have more than we do. There are people that have a lot less than we do, and this is what we have and this is how we're going to make decisions. And yeah, and and you know, being a safe space that if other people in the world say things to them, that they can bring that back to you and then you can help them unpack that and process. That is important, right?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it's funny you said, make decisions and like I'm sometimes very conscious of if I don't want to pay for something. If my daughter's shopping and she wants a dress and I am mentally thinking that dress is not worth $75. You're only going to wear it twice, but I don't necessarily want her to have shame around, I picked out a dress that's too expensive. I try to think of something else about the dress, like I don't know if we're ready for spaghetti straps, rather than being like that's too expensive. Why did you choose that one? Because I mean it is. It's so many. Emotions is a broad thing I don't like, even for presents, like in holidays. Like the idea of what someone deserves or how much it should cost, um can vary a lot from family to family and from like person within family, like does your spouse? Should he be spending more or less than like you would on someone else?

Speaker 2:

and like so complicated. Yeah, yeah, and on that kind of thought too, I try to avoid the phrase we can't afford that yeah, I do too. We choose not to prioritize it or something like that, exactly. Yeah, because I think also, yeah, just really exemplifying that like we're making an active decision, that something else is more important than spending, like the ideal dress.

Speaker 1:

It's not even true like you know if we prioritized it.

Speaker 2:

We could buy a 75 dress like that we're choosing something else we would like to have more resources available for something else right, which is a good idea that my mom like doesn't think of herself as being like financially savvy and feels like she didn't give me a great financial foundation. Um, but the one conversation that I can like clearly attribute to like her laying a fantastic foundation is I came home from a play date at a friend's house who were very well to do and their dad had just gotten a new car. I think it was like a BMW, a Mercedes leather seat way nicer than anything my family had, and I told my mom we should get a car like that, and obviously I was I don't know eight nine it was innocent yeah.

Speaker 2:

And my mom laughed and said we can't afford that. And then she corrected herself and she said you know, we probably could afford that, but that would mean we wouldn't go on vacations, that would mean we couldn't do like. That would be the only extra thing in our life, and she's like that just doesn't add value to me. I would much rather that we go on vacations or that we do these other things, and just giving me the gift of my family is choosing something different.

Speaker 1:

When I grow up, maybe a Mercedes is what I choose to prioritize, without the shame, just like what our family picked exactly. I think that's really the key too. It's like not that the dress is right or wrong or the car is right or wrong, or, like you know, starbucks daily is right or wrong. It's just that, like, this is what we have chosen, especially if you can have your spouse in unity. I think it's even more powerful of like, well, daddy and I have just chosen that. You know we're going to go to this school, we're going to live in this house and you know we feel really blessed to have that, but we're choosing not to do like this house or this other thing because we've just decided that, right, like we travel a lot most of our disposable income goes to travel more than I guess like stuff, like we definitely don't have like the freshest, I don't know whatever Like we could

Speaker 1:

use the couch? Yeah, like my husband owned it when we got married 12 years ago. So like, all right, but enough said on the couch, it was nice at the time, but it's seen somewhere. But couch, it was nice at the time, but it's seen somewhere. But like we don't spend three thousand dollars on a couch from grain barrel or whatever. Yeah, because we're always like, well, but we could go on vacation with that money. You know, um right, and it's just like doing it in a neutral way. That I think, and I think the really important thing to be able to do.

Speaker 2:

That is to have those conversations with your partner or even just with yourself to figure out what are the things that we're choosing to prioritize, and the idea of saying you know what we're not going to do. You know the competitive soccer, you know traveling soccer team because we've decided that that would be at the cost of going on family vacation and we've made this active decision that this is what's important for us, or the new couch, or keeping up with the Joneses in whatever capacity that is. It's a lot easier to make those hard decisions than to say no, especially if you have to say no to your kids Not easy. But if you're clear in this is what we want to prioritize, then it's a lot easier to identify where you might need to say no and say that that's not what we're going to prioritize.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, for sure, and I think, even with career decisions, like we've talked about that on this show before with other guests of, like you know, people who don't work as much as they could or, like you said, give up the promotion to be at home or to be more flexible, or to not be in a position that travels, or and like there's going to be moments where you're like, man, I wish I could have the Mercedes and be home to you, Like I think that's normal and like we shouldn't feel like that's not normal, Like there's always moments where you're like wouldn't mind.

Speaker 1:

Well, yeah, I have those all the time Like I think we just need to normalize, like no one's perfect, like at the end of the day, that you feel good about this.

Speaker 2:

For me, a flexible career that allows me to be available in ways that I couldn't if I had a more traditional mindset that I had to commute to, and that means that I might be deprioritizing something else, and I have to. I have like a post-it note that's like you.

Speaker 1:

You chose this career for a reason, right, because that is important to me, um, and it is helpful to like remind yourself of that, yeah yeah, because I really think, like to sum up, kind of it's like so much, the more we can take the emotion, like the emotional reaction, out of it, the more we're all gonna take it out but identify acknowledge it, yeah, unpack it.

Speaker 2:

Cool, that's. That's what emotion is driving me right now. Is that something that I want to indulge and like yeah, I'm gonna allow myself to be motor, like, driven by that emotion, or is that not something that I want to like dictate how I make this decision?

Speaker 1:

right, yeah, that that awareness is so key and passing it on to your children is like such a service, yeah. So I wasn't kidding about the pool coffee, this one's run a little longer than some of them.

Speaker 1:

But I mean so good, and so I mean universal.

Speaker 1:

Like we all, at some point in our lives, struggle with these questions and, you know, come up against them day to day in our relationships, in our families, in our family of origin. Like it's so good and something that, like, we all need to be talking about and maybe this will help spur some thoughts or questions that people can, you know, take and have some productive conversations to start the new year off well. And speaking of starting the new year off well, as we kind of round out the holidays, I do like to ask every guest for a petite plaisir and if you're a new listener, that's something that is, it's French for a simple pleasure or like a little luxury, because, like we're talking about, luxuries and moments of joy do not have to break you financially and you don't have to wait till you're a millionaire to have those in your life, like we can be really purposeful about them. So is there any small little something that has been adding joy to your life? Doesn't even have to be something you buy.

Speaker 2:

I have been recently taking classes through the local Parks and Rec to learn how to play pickleball. I know pickleball is very. You either love it or hate it. I again, I'm self-employed, so I have the luxury of having like I can carve out time in the middle of my day. So I have the luxury of having like I can carve out time in the middle of my day. So it is me and a bunch of retired women, for the most part, playing it, which is also just a beautiful gift to see all of these like active and like thriving women in their 60s.

Speaker 1:

I love it.

Speaker 2:

But also, it being like a consistent every Thursday morning, it kind of gives me permission to like go do this thing for myself and I know, for me kind of having something like on the calendar, I'm way more likely to, you know, commit to it and stick to it. So that's been the thing that I've been really enjoying lately.

Speaker 1:

I love that, as someone who works from home, like something to get out of the house for. I can. I can get. I can totally get behind that because I know what you mean. Like you can get a little like these walls are closing in on me, so I love that, and you know it's healthy. It's like gets you out, gets some motion in your day. So I have yet to try pickleball. I'm behind on that trend, but I'll do it soon, I think yeah.

Speaker 1:

I mean, I think for me it's just that like thing, that's like the idea of going out for like a little mental health walk every day beautiful idea. I never execute it.

Speaker 2:

But if it's on my calendar, yeah, I feel more committed. Yeah, I've paid money to be there.

Speaker 1:

I will show up right, I feel like I agree, like versus, like you know, and feels more substantial than just like going for coffee or something where it's easy to talk yourself out of it. So, yeah, I know I do that too well. I love that and something we can all do, just and picking up new hobbies, like knowing that you can be a full person. Everything doesn't have to be dedicated to your family. Something you do for yourself is learning something new Investment.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yes, perfect. And if anyone is thinking, man, I'm making some of those mistakes or I need a little more help, or someone to help me negotiate, talking through some of this with my spouse in a peaceful way, how can someone learn more about you or get connected?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I work with women and couples one-on-one to really kind of get into the nitty gritty of where their money is going, how to make better decisions for their family, just kind of unpacking what's happening with their money. My website is sarahrollercom that's Sarah with an H and on my website you can download my free tool on unexpected expenses. We talked about all of those things that pop up and how to kind of anticipate and map out how you'll create a plan for those, so you can download that tool to kind of get a little taste of what it's like working with me.

Speaker 1:

Well, that's perfect, and I will be sure to link that all in the show notes and thank everyone for listening. Thank you for joining me today on Never Too Festive. I hope you are leaving feeling inspired and refreshed. If you've loved what you've heard, don't keep it to yourself. Share this podcast with a friend who could use a little extra sparkle in her life. And, hey, while you're at it, why not leave a review on your favorite podcast platform? Your feedback helps us continue to grow and inspire more women like you. Have questions or feedback you want to share directly with me? Simply click the link in the show notes to send me a text. I'd love to hear from you. Until next time, remember, all we have is today, so let's choose to live our most fabulous, joyful life together.