The Meaningful Podcast Experience (MPE)

Ep. 8 - The Last Chance Saloon: Meaningfulness in a High School Context w/ Jo Bailey

• Ty and Doug

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Episode EIGHT introduces Jo Bailey, a high school Physical Education teacher in Wisconsin, USA. Originally from the UK, Jo spent much of her life in Hong Kong and taught in both the UK and Hong Kong for several years before moving to the USA in 2004. Jo is a keynote speaker, a National Board Certified Teacher was the 2013 Midwest SHAPE America High School Physical Education Teacher of the Year. Jo has shared her experience implementing MPE with her high school students as part of the Meaningful PE Symposium hosted by the Norwegian School of Sport Science. In this episode, we discuss how Jo bridges the gap between her PE classes and the local community, puppetry (seriously), as well as how she embeds reflection into her teaching practice - all a part of how she teaches in the Last Chance saloon! 

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Thanks to Isaiah Gleddie for the guitar pieces, SSHRC for some funding and our guests for sharing!

Douglas Gleddie:

Hello, folks, you are listening to the Meaningful Podcast Experience with myself, Doug Gleddie

Ty Riddick:

and I'm Ty Riddick. The purpose of this podcast is to engage in conversations with those enacting meaningful physical education, both in terms of research as well as in their teaching practice and everything that falls in between.

Douglas Gleddie:

Thanks for joining us on with the show.

Ty Riddick:

Okay, well, welcome back everybody to the meaningful podcast experience. One of the questions we get most often is, well, what does meaningful P look like in a high school setting? Or when are you going to have a high school teacher on the podcast? Well, today we've got nothing but the best for you. Joe Bailey is joining us from Wisconsin. Joe, it's so great to have you on the podcast, if you don't mind introducing yourself and a little bit about what you teach.

Jo Bailey:

Okay, my name is Jo Bailey, as you said. I teach in North Central Wisconsin at a grades 10 through 12 High School of around 13 150 ish students been there for just over 20 years now. And prior to that, I taught in Hong Kong, and I also taught in England for a couple of years, and it's always been secondary, but the last 20 odd years has been fully High School. Yeah, I think that's about it

Ty Riddick:

awesome. Yes, I think when I would have first met you, air quotes that no one can see because it's a podcast, I would have been at probably APEC 2018 and at that time you already really well established, really experienced teacher, keynote speaker, leader in the field. So when meaningful visit kind of comes around, kind of around that 2017, 2018, year, you already had so much experience under your belt. You're doing your thing. Why make the shift towards looking at kind of meaningful phys ed and its implications for for for your teaching.

Jo Bailey:

It just to me, it just made sense. Think I initially heard about it, some of Andy Vass work. He talked about Scott coach Mara, the idea of joy and all those orientations. And I thought, well, that that is essentially what you want the students to get out of their physical education experience. You want them to to to kind of to have the skills, not only to just to be physically active, but to know how to and where to look and engage in those activities, not just now, but in the future as well. And we are the conduit to that, like we are. We are like the last chance saloon, the last opportunity for that to happen, and if we mess it up, you know, we know some people can be completely closed off from a negative experience the rest of their life, and that, to me, is a scary thing. So think I was already kind of weaving my way in that direction, and it just kind of it pulled the pieces together to make sense like this. This is it. And when it, when you hear that, you know, the initial research came from the mouths of students. This is what they said made their experience meaningful. It's like, Well, why would we not use that information and try and create experiences to meet their needs? Because it's and it's not about us, it's about them. So we should be doing whatever we can to serve the students whose lives we're trying to enrich. You know, through a physical activity medium.

Ty Riddick:

So usually Doug, as people are talking, he's thinking about, what are the episode titles going to be? So it could be last chance saloon. It could be as a conduit. But I love the point that you raise. I mean, when I think about you, when I was early in my teaching, I was thinking about, you know, what these approaches, and most of the approaches come from more of a scientific background. TGFU, game sense that where somebody has rationalized that based on an information processing model, this could be, but as, just as you said, the meaningful phys ed framework comes from the students. And when we are taking what, what we what we know, yes, we know in a research context, but this is what students are saying is meaningful to them. It does allow them to pull a lot of those things together. And as you said, it's made obviously, we're on this podcast. I think that idea that it just makes sense, and the way that it ties those pieces together is exactly what has attracted attracted me to it as well.

Douglas Gleddie:

And that makes sense. Piece has been consistent with, I think, any teacher we've interviewed or had a conversation with who has been shifting towards meaningful PE or adopting the framework in some way, shape or form that you know what I was doing some of this before, I just didn't, either I didn't know it, or now I have a place to kind of put it and keep keep moving on it, so that that makes sense. And yes, Ty, I am totally writing down titles here. So do you like the last chance? And I'll kind of piggyback on that, if that's okay. And hi Joe, so good to see you. Love that you're walking on your treadmill desk. My first question is. How, how intense can you be thinking and working and still walk on the treadmill?

Jo Bailey:

I do better when I'm moving. I do and you yesterday, we had a standardizing, standardized testing day in the state of Wisconsin, and it was a day of sitting and I I struggle. And interesting enough. Many of the students say the same thing when they when it's so front and center that it's a day of sitting, they're like, and so, yeah, I It helps me think the ideas, the ideas come often when I'm moving, when I'm outside, you know, because often there's nothing else to distract you, and you just like, oh, so yeah, one of the best ways for me to actually get my brain working,

Douglas Gleddie:

yeah, absolutely. And that's, I mean, that's proven over and over again, and we're designed to move. I mean, that's how we're Yeah, we're designed to learn through moving. So yeah, I just know a colleague of mine was saying, Yeah, I can do, like, emails and stuff, but if I start writing intensely, I fall off my treadmill every once in a while. So that's true. Yeah. And my, my second kind of throwaway question is, I know you're not, you know, originally from Wisconsin, but my key question is, in do you pronounce it hockey or Hockey?

Jo Bailey:

Hockey? Okay, I don't know.

Douglas Gleddie:

Just checking, I

Jo Bailey:

don't know. Haven't been fully converted yet.

Douglas Gleddie:

Yeah, yeah, Minnesota has that definite draw in the hockey but anyways, I digress. So your comment about you know were the last chance for students to leave school with their physical activity wings was in your presentation that you did virtually in Norway. I'm sure you're disappointed not to be there in person, but, oh, that would have been incredible. But yeah, yeah. And I think that's a that's a night like, what immediately springs to my mind is remedial phys ed, which is has all sorts of negative connotations. But I love, I love that framing of, you know, physical activity wings, another, another high school colleague of mine who's now retired, Lois vanderly, you taught in Banff, Alberta, which is a beautiful place to teach. She always talked about, you know, one of the key questions to ask is, who's not in your gym? So this is my preamble to the question. But so how might your approach like? How do you operationalize that approach of, you know, the last chance for students to leave school with their physical activity wings, and how do you address that who's not in your gym? And I have to ask too, is, at what point is phys ed non mandatory in Wisconsin?

Jo Bailey:

Um, so students need a credit and a half to graduate in our school system, so that the ninth grade level, which is at our junior high, they all have fired. And then at the high school, they need the other one credit, so we have a core class that they all take, and then after that, they've got another half credit. So some students could be done grade 11, some grade 12 and then. But we do have a lot of students who choose to take above and beyond that, which is, which is wonderful, and that's what we want,

Douglas Gleddie:

yeah, and just to jump in that's, that's where that quote comes from. Is who is not in my gym? Because we're the same in Alberta here, and I know lots of jurisdictions are the same. Once you get to high school, there is maybe a mandatory credit, or whatever that looks like in in the curriculum. But then there's electives. And so to look at those electives and go, who's not choosing to come in there and why? So I'll just let you kind of riff on that.

Jo Bailey:

Yeah. And one thing which, you know, my one of my first years in Wisconsin, we actually had completely revamped the curriculum, and then there had been some research done ahead of time. Say, like, you know, what are we not offering? No. So many people, I think, came up through a traditional sports model. We do some volleyball and do some basketball, we do some of this, and we change so we do, you know, if you've got those students who they really do love their team sports, there is an option for that. But we've also got, you know, the outdoor and adventure, adventure Ed, personal defense, strengthening, conditioning, net racket. So we tried to kind of put things together and say, right, what makes sense to put in this particular bucket that would speak to this core of students, that maybe another one or another experience wouldn't necessarily speak to so it's nice that you can, you know, you kind of, you can narrow in their focus, and those that you know choose one pathway or another, can really start to find a this is something for me. But even within that, it's like you never want to put somebody in a box and say, That's That's where you are. It's like, you still want to encourage that exploration and those opportunities. It's like you like said, you want them to go out and be willing to explore what is around them, whether it's right here in the home area or, Hey, I'm visiting somewhere, and there are all these new opportunities that I. Never experienced before. Do I have the confidence to try them? And I also think the other issue that I and I take this as a challenge, is when the students go, they're coming in, and they have those preconceived notions of I can or I can't, I'm no good at this. And it's like we have to, like we have to ship away at those. And that's one of my favorite challenges to and I think this is where, again, meaningful P helped is being able to construct the experience in a way that you can show them how far they're progressing and what they have done. And it's not in any realm of you need to be the best you know in air quotes again, or reach a particular standard. It's like, it's not about that. So trying to diffuse some of those things that you know have infiltrated their lives over as they've grown up. Yeah,

Douglas Gleddie:

that makes a ton of sense. And I like that phrasing of you know, to kind of break those boxes of can and cannot. I think that's really important, and I'll just when I used to teach first and second year students at a smaller university here in Alberta, my first assignment with them was reflect on your past, present and future relationship with physical activity. And I was blown away by the number of students who you know. I played high school basketball. I'm a basketball player. I didn't make a team here. I don't know who I am anymore. I don't know what future is. So when we can get to that earlier and there, you know, there's lots of good stuff around physical literacy that meshes with meaningful p as well. But what sort of consultation do you do with either incoming students or maybe students after they've finished their required credit. Do you do, obviously, informal and stuff, but anything else?

Jo Bailey:

Yeah, so the incoming students, the sophomores, I always had them like, I don't know you well. I might know the odd student here and there from from sports and things, but for the most part, I don't know that. I don't know what their experiences have been like. I don't know what their concerns are, so I always kind of ask them, you know, little bit about themselves, things they enjoy. I asked them, you know, what has been a great physical education experience in their lives, and what hasn't concerns they might have? The High High School is where our swimming pool is located. So that is always the could be a potential freak out moment for some students. So trying to soften and get a sense of right, what's coming in here, where are these concerns, and how can I address them upfront? So that's that's always been eye opening, because there's often some very common themes as to what they have enjoyed, and very strong ones on the what they haven't enjoyed science. It's like, Alright, I need to reassure them that this is, you know, some of the ways that we're going to operate, and let them know that those things aren't necessarily going to happen. So yeah,

Douglas Gleddie:

and to you, what I also really enjoyed about your Norway presentation was I like the side by side stroke comparison. That it's not about being the best, but everyone can see improvement. And that's just so, so key. And I, you know, I started doing yoga about three weeks ago because I need to be more mobile. And I was at a half hot half a class on Monday night, and at the beginning that we did downward dog, and I'm just not flexible. And the teacher was like, just pay attention to how your body feels now, because we're going to do this five or six more times, and then I want to check in again. And when she checked in again, I was like, Yeah, I'm a little more. I mean, I'm not putting my face to the mat. I guess you don't do that downward dog anyways, but whatever. But I could see some improvement that's, you know, I think that has that connection to that just right challenge, autonomy, supportive practice, all those kind of things. So I'll shift a little bit. And this might be a harder question to answer, but can you kind of describe what your teaching practice was like prior to beginning to implement MPE, and what's it like now? And maybe that's just a couple key things that you've made shifts on. Maybe it's just more of the same, but in a a more, you know, organized fashion up to you

Jo Bailey:

definitely, definitely more organized. So I think I kind of, you know, you're there'd been some evolution already from, like, the the beginning, sort of days where it was like, we do this. These are the rules. We do it this way, type approach, which, you know, kind of what I grew up with, kind of what we were taught. And then I was like, hang on a second, this. Why? Why? I think when you start that questioning process, then it opens doors for yourself. Um, I'd already started.

Douglas Gleddie:

Yeah, just interject, how many years were you teaching when you like, by 2017, 2018 we started to explore that. Oh, it's

Jo Bailey:

gonna take some mathematics, isn't it? I'm about 20 years in by then. Yeah, about 20 years in. So they've been few. I'd say probably from around maybe 2010 2011 that's the time when things really started to, like, I started to question a lot of things that I had done traditionally. And I'm like, not sure about this. And, you know, you try different things, and you have some success, and and so on. So, but I think being more intentional about being democratic, it's like, right? We might have this outcome that we're trying to focus on, but again, how the different pathways to that outcome do not need to be the same for each person and button. By outcome, it doesn't mean everyone has to get to this level. So it's like and that's been more but I'd say a later thing like, How can I create a environment where every single student, no matter what their experience and what their skill level or interest, how can I create an environment where every single one has the opportunity to be successful, because their success is going to be different depending on where they're at and so on and so forth and so that. And then the second part was definitely the reflection piece. Like I knew it was important, I knew it was, you know, supposed to but I wasn't doing it. And I think those have been some of the richest things in the last few years that have come out, like when you get the student voice telling you and what that they are so proud of themselves for what they've done. And again, it, it doesn't matter what it is, it's having them look introspectively at themselves. I think that's what some of the biggest value comes from breaking those moments of pride or, you know, helping them discover them for themselves, because they they might, may not, have realized they were there. It's like, how do we create an environment where we can make them visible? So the swimming videos, for example, that was one of those. And I even, I was blown away the first time we did it. Like, okay, here's your day one. Something doesn't matter what it looks like. We're just getting a sense of where we're at today. And then the end one. And even I was like, oh my goodness, because you just don't see those day to day improvements. They don't see them. Even, being the teacher, hadn't seen them. And it was like, wow, this is incredible. And it's, it's, it's nice for them to have that evidence of, I did this. Look at me. Well done me. So it's like, be, be proud of yourself. I think that's a skill a lot of our students don't, haven't sculpted or developed as much as they should have. I like what you said. There have to Yeah,

Ty Riddick:

about the no matter what the experience is, no matter what the skill level is, how can I address this outcome in a way that allows them to be successful? Because really, I think what you're speaking to is differentiation, and that democratic or the democratic nature of meaningful visit really allows us to differentiate for for every kid. One of the challenges, I mean, Twitter or x or whatever it is, the online community has changed a bit, but for a time it was really, really great. Lot of great examples of meaningful phys ed and other things shared online. But maybe you disagree. A lot of it is more elementary school, middle school based. There's just and for whatever reason, I know there's, there's a lot of uptake with MYP or International Baccalaureate teachers, because they see meaningful Phys Ed is very inquiry based. And so really curious. And you've mentioned some like students in high school, they have the, maybe the ability to use technology more effectively and affluently than the elementary kids they are capable of, you'd hope, more independence and deeper reflection. So I'm really curious. What types of strategies do you find yourself using that have been really effective for you in a high school setting,

Jo Bailey:

just in general, or from a reflection standpoint, or

Ty Riddick:

either or general, specific. I

Jo Bailey:

think it's so much of it obviously on me as a teacher, and how I sell it, if I'm super excited about it. And I'm like, Yeah, and that helps tremendously. And I reiterate the value of whatever it is that we are doing, definitely choices like, you know, we, we, we start off the class, and there's some element of a warm up, but how can I make it so I'm not saying you're going to do this. You're choosing it and adding in, looking to add a social piece in there, because the students say, you know, depending on what's happened in the previous hour, they want to talk to each other anyway. So how can I incorporate something they want to do and get that social piece integrated into Lesson while still allowing them to have kind of choice and fluidity as to how that's going to look for them, and on the reflective, the reflective side. Now, every week, at the end of the week, we do a weekly reflection. And initially, I kind of had four question prompts. You know, what did I learn or try? What was I proud of? What was challenging for me? And I'd normally use the fourth one, I can't remember, and then I started changing them weekly based on what we had been doing to kind of really draw out different elements. So sometimes it was, you know, the groups that they had worked with and how they'd found those sometimes it was more of, what would they use else? So it kind of changes all the time, and it can change from class to class. So if I happen to see something mid class, I'm like, oh, that's something we should draw out. I might make a note of that and add that in. Sometimes, right there, and then sometimes later on, at the end of a not always, but sometimes at the end of a unit block as well. That has been a really good time to dig a little bit deeper. So I think students, it's great when they share with me, but the other one is when they share with each other, because again, that opening of perspectives. A couple of years ago, I did some radar graphs. I think I saw Joey did something rather, oh, this is a cool graphical representation of what a person's experience might be. And we've done, I think, three different activities. And I was curious to see which activities spoke more to which students, you know, using the meaningful PE framework. So okay, for the you know, for activity, a did you find it more fun? How was that challenge level? You know, how did your those sorts of things and just having them look at people's different shapes and hearing their different perspectives, that was a, an interesting conversation when they're like some of it, I didn't, I wouldn't have ever thought of that that way. So trying to, because, I mean, they all of us, we need, we all need exposure to different ideas and different people. They, you know, widen our lenses and our students are no different. So having visuals, having that feedback between different groups. And again, I mean, it all starts with that safe environment where somebody is willing to share. And, you know, that's something that I think every teacher tries hard to create from, you know, the day one of their class, and develop over time. So, but definitely, the reflection piece has just been massive,

Ty Riddick:

yeah, and I like what you said there, but it's not just them sharing with you, but sharing with each other. Yeah, it was doing some interviews with, I think my grade nine kids, and one of the things that I asked them was about, we use stickers to say, what do you find meaningful, or whatever? And what they said they really liked about it is they allowed it allowed them to see what other people found meaningful about that activity. Like, Oh, well, my friends are really motivated by challenge in this whatever activity. I never thought about that like, well, what's challenging for me about that activity? So it just prompted a different level of reflection that I wasn't always anticipating. But it's really interesting that you're doing the weekly reflections. I think sometimes the concern that we can hear from high school teachers is all you can talk about reflection and P, like, P is about physical activity. It's going to be weird if all of a sudden I start asking kids to do these reflection but the way you've set it up, it's like, it's an embedded practice, that this is part, this is part of what we do. And once it becomes that routine, the kids aren't they don't second guess it. But I'm really curious about those. Like, regardless of what the questions are you get that's a lot of data. Every week, you're getting more and more data from kids, and I'm curious, have you noticed kind of any themes revealing themselves, or how are you using what they're saying to kind of inform what comes next, or you're planning for the future?

Jo Bailey:

It depends on what they just depend on what the question is. But instead, like said, sometimes I'll be directly trying to tease something out, particularly if I've tried something new. So I've been teaching a net rackets class for the first time in like, 19 years. Our polyq Teacher retired. So it's like, right? How do I want to do this? You know? And I think that open and honesty with the students, like, okay, not done this for a while. I'm, I'm going to be muddling my way through what is going to be the best for you, and I'm going to be seeking out your feedback on that, so asking them like, know kind of what structures they preferred in terms of how a game or a competition or a warm up was structured. And I I share that back with them as well, because I think it's, again, it's important for them to know what their peers have said. Because this one person's thinking, well, this is a great way to do it, and I really liked it, but 10 other people said, No, it wasn't. Then it's like, Alright, yes, I want to hear your voice, but I also want you to understand that your voice does, doesn't stand alone. It has to, you know, there's there's that, again, it's that whole eco like the mentality, like you're constantly shifting things up and down depending on what's going on. Some of it is easy data, when I've, you know if I've asked questions, where they can do some ratings on a scale of one to five, and then I've got some fairly concrete data where I can see two. Ends over time. And that's also, it's a great advocacy tool as well, to support the what students are saying. And, you know, take that back to administration, parents and so on and so forth too. So yeah, and I, there's various things that written. If there's something that's particularly profound that I want to make sure I've saved. Then again, it's it's really nice to have that documentation to go back to. And so kind of, some of it gets banned in there next time change this. Some of it gets rolled to whatever is coming next, because that's just practical. So it varies. But the data is it's great. And more than anything, it's nothing I said, Well, it's nothing better when you use like you can see the moments of aha in some of the things that students have written, and then you can connect with them. And then they, then they kind of expand more on what they've said. So I think we all, we all like to share our experiences, and if we don't give the opportunity to share, then that's another opportunity missed as well. So being able to having them share, and then being able to kind of feed on from that, that's really helpful as well. You know

Douglas Gleddie:

what I really like about that Joe is just or what I'm hearing, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I like the weaving of intentionality, but also allowing for emergent stuff. And I like the weaving between what are the students students experience, but also what are they experiencing from you? And then I'm assuming you do some of your own reflection too, to as you're going through the data, you're like, Oh, I didn't realize that happened here. Or, okay, this is working the way I hoped it did. And so I like how it's all kind of woven together. It's powerful, yeah,

Jo Bailey:

and don't get me wrong, but many things that don't go right,

Douglas Gleddie:

come on, Joe,

Jo Bailey:

yeah. And, I mean, yeah, that was obviously, I the first time I kind of, you know, had an idea, and you try it, and it absolutely bonds. And you kind of say, All right, here's what I was trying to do. Clearly, it hasn't worked. What can we do to kind of shift around from here? And so, yeah, it's and now I'm very comfortable with things not working. It's like, it's not always going to be this utopian. Oh, everything's great, and everything works. So

Ty Riddick:

And you've been using this approach, and apology if you mentioned this, but with your compulsory kind of, your grade, grade, 10s, compulsory, right?

Jo Bailey:

Yes, that's correct.

Ty Riddick:

And is this the approach that? And this is, is this When, when we're talking with some of your swimming unit and things like that are, these are the kids that you're trying to approach it with through the meaningful out of curiosity. And this is something that I know we can edit out if you say, No. Ty, it's actually gotten worse. I'm curious. Have you noticed any change in enrollment of the elective parts of Phys Ed from the kids that you've taught?

Jo Bailey:

Um, no, we've always had a pretty high number of students who take a way above and beyond what they want to do. And then, sure enough, we just had our new numbers in for next year, and we were down slightly, but the class is down by 75 students. So that kind of makes sense, but that is something that I like. Well, we need to track this to see where it's at. And then it's also, it's on us as well. It's like, how, how are we selling these classes? And you know, particularly if you've got a class that only runs a couple of sections, like, word of mouth, like for most things, is a huge way to get more people involved in something or on something. So it's like, how do you get that word of mouth out when there's only maybe one or two sections of a class? But you know how valuable it is for a population of students who may not know about it. So I think, you know we, we think we've said something once, and therefore someone should remember, but we all know we need would repeat to remember, repeat to remember, repeat to remember. So keeping it. And we, you know, we always, we highlight what opportunities are there. And we will say, the students look, you know, when you're choosing your classes. Yes, you've got all these requirements that you do need to take. But beyond that, like consider yourself as a whole person. You know you do you need that hands on movement? Do you want to be sitting all day? What would that look like? Yes, of course, we'd love to see you in PE but is it a? Is it a metals class? Is it a? Are you going to be building the house at the school? Are you going to be what else could you be creating somewhere else? So putting that mindset in of, you know, kinesthetic movement, whether it's in our realm, or it's in a slightly different realm. I think that's important to again, it goes to balancing your whole life. That's what we're going to what our students are going to have to do forever. So,

Ty Riddick:

yeah, yeah, it's a challenge, as it's challenging. I mean, we're at, I'm at a private, independent school, high academic expectations, and that conversation, To try and get kids to think about that is, is a really difficult one, and the longer we can keep them in the last chance saloon, the better. But just in similar situation to you, in that that grade 10 year, that last compulsory year, really is, is a critical year. I want to ask you a little bit about planning and how you and thinking about an upcoming unit. What is your approach or your process, whether it's a swimming unit, whether it's a net and racket unit. I want this to be meaningful for the kids. How do you go about planning that or thinking through that before the unit happens?

Jo Bailey:

So I just, we just started a speed Minton unit in net racket. So I kind of sat down at the weekend. I'm like, Alright, this is something different. I know there's going to be some what is this game, does it? Is it really a real game, questioning to start off with, which is, again, usual, totally fine. It's like, How can I? How can I, I think of it like a little bit like puppetry, and it sounds manipulative, yeah, I guess. And you know, that's what you are trying to do, you're trying to manipulate the environment to make it work for the students. So, like, how can I manipulate the fun and the competition piece? Like, I know these students, like, they love a little game of whatever it, you know, some whimsical type game that still is going to fit in with actually, this is, you know, you're almost going in stealth mode. You throw in a game or an activity that you know is going to work on, something that you then can, you know, layer on to as the unit goes on. Um, just chunking the lessons in general, like, what's, what are we going to start with? What's our next thing? How am I going to I want, you know, of course, I want them to develop skills, but how am I going to do that? And in a context that's going to have them want to see the meaning, but you know the intent behind it? You know what game structure am I going to use? How am I going to group students? I mean, that is still and I think forever will be one of the biggest challenges. It's I never want somebody left out, but I also want you to have some freedom of choice with your opponents, because you want, again, that just right challenge level. And it's that is still, I think, the hardest thing. And some days I think I've got it right, and some days I'm like, Ah Gosh, that's not working. So I it'll change, and it'll change formats all the time, from activity to activity, and again, sometimes it will be a feedback thing. And so like this morning, I was like, right, got a good idea for a little warm up. There was an element of competition, you know, building in some agility, some court movement, and so on. And several groups ate it up, and they were like, going for it. And then there was a couple who are like, I don't want to move. And it was like, Okay, how can I, you know, like, right? This is a class where we do move, and I just want to play a game. Well, you're playing a game. So it's, and you I, you know, I'm not naive enough to think I'm gonna have 100% of students all the time be like, I mean, sometimes it's digging a bit deeper. It's okay. Are you super tired because there's something else going on? If you had not the best morning? It could be something else, or it could just be, I don't want to move. But there also happens. I

Douglas Gleddie:

mean, this is the balance I find between, yes, we want a lot of autonomy, supportive environments. We want to we want a lot of student voice and choice, but at the same time, you're the teacher. You have the knowledge and experience you've built up to go this is why we're it may not be your favorite, but try it, and then let me know how you're going to modify it. Yeah. And I think, like for myself, when I was taking, say, English language arts or English in high school, I I hated poetry. I hated plays. I like novels. If someone would have just let me read a novel The whole time, I could have killed that class, but I'm also, when I look back now, I'm appreciative that okay, I have an appreciation of poetry, I have an appreciation of theater that I wouldn't have had if a teacher hadn't had a curriculum hadn't structured that so I find that balance really intriguing. And I think you're what I hear from you is that you're creating that culture where that balance can be explored.

Jo Bailey:

Yes, and I, and I obviously know now there's same exactly from what you've just said. There are so many times you haven't experienced and it's not until a week or two or even years later that you actually find out. Oh no. And funny enough, one of one of my colleagues, I had their their child in class several years ago now, and it was someone else told me, third party said they were talking about their son daughter, and they'd said it took him till like 24 and then it finally clicked. And then they actually had said, now. I get, and it's a shame that we don't. And this, I'd love to see, like, research, you know, go beyond. And I've always talked about, how can we tap into those students, you know, five years, 10 years after they've left, just to see like, hey, what, how did we do? Did we what do we miss out on? And have any of the things that we've done, you know, had an impact on you and, you know, and sometimes we do hear that, but it be, would be really nice to get that, you know, post high school view, to see to what extent we were, you know, achieving what we wanted to achieve. No, that'll be some very valuable research. I think I

Ty Riddick:

agree. I want to get, make sure I give you credit, Joe, we've had a lot of metaphors on the podcast. Alex Beckye, we've talked about the equalizer. We've talked about but I think you might have just unearthed a new one, the puppeteer. And I think that's a really good metaphor for when we're thinking about looking at an environment like that's kind of what we're doing. I'm trying to pull on this string of social interaction. I'm trying to pull this kid is motivated by something difference. I'm gonna, I need to pull on that string for them to get them get the going. So I want to make sure you get due credit metaphors. It's Joe Bailey.

Jo Bailey:

And sometimes those puppeteer things, they just get so tangled, and everything falls down

Douglas Gleddie:

100% that's normal. Yeah. Well, I think to, you know, to to extend a little further on that, and again, to go back to your your Norway presentation, when you talk about the swimming unit, you know, most people think, okay, you're in the pool, you're this, but the fact that you brought out what, Wisconsin is full of lakes, and there's kayaking, and there's stand up paddle boarding, and there's all these other things. So why not incorporate that? Because in those things, swimming is almost a safety piece, yes, but it's also just that love of water, right, to be able to go and to feel confident that, you know what I've never done, stand up paddle board, but I can swim back to shore if I fall off. I can get back on the you know, I can figure it. I might not be able to get back on the board, but I can swim with the board back to shore. So I really love that, that Community and Environmental integration, it's so key.

Jo Bailey:

And swimming is not surprising. At a high school level, is a unit we get a lot of pushback from. It's, you know, it's always a what's the word, not nervous. It's an environment that you know definitely heightens people's senses, and know they can feel very conscious about themselves. And it's, it's trying to, again, chip away at that and show them what you know, open their eyes and their world to what they can do. And it's, you mentioned paddleboarding, which is, again, like no one says you have to be the perfect paddle boarder. It's, it's almost better when you do fall off, and then you laugh about it, and then you kick around, and then you have two of you sitting on the paddle board, and then you figure out something else, or you just sit and admire a sunset, or whatever, whatever else it could be. I mean, it's, those are the things that are just like, Wow. This is a great moment like that. You know, I guess those moments of delight that you didn't plan for but suddenly appear

Douglas Gleddie:

well, and yeah, I think that's in your puppeteering. You may not ever see that joy with the students like you might. You might if you take them out to a lake and you see them laying back on their board and just soaking up the sun. But, you know, this is where the follow up research, and there is some, but we can definitely use more of that. Direct ties to, you know, I'm now 35 and I freaking love stand up paddle boarding. Is there any connection to phys ed, to my own phys ed back in the day? So, yeah, that'd be really interesting. I think we need to. We've always got lots of work to do as researchers, for sure.

Jo Bailey:

And actually, the first I wrote a grant for some paddle board several years ago now. And you know, we practice in the pool, and I did take one of my classes down to the lakes, luckily for us, as a nice spot, like, a mile away. So it's kind of easy, and I had this extensive plan of all these things that we were going to do once we got done, and we're going to try this and we were going to do that. And it was a super nice day. The sun was shining, it was quite calm. And one of the students was like, I just want to sit here and soak it all in. And I at that point again, it was like, This is what is going to be my most meaningful and reflective, like, and they set up as it was, that calmness and that serenity. So if I'd have gone with my initial plan of, okay, here's activity one, here's activity two, and, you know, it would have possibly, you know, completely dispersed, what came about quite organically. So that's important as well. Like, you need a plan, but deviate from the plan, yeah,

Douglas Gleddie:

and that's such a like, you know, I work with pre service teachers in our program, and that's one of the key things we try and look at is, yes, you need to plan, you need to have this, but there's a time to let it go in the moment. Yes, you know, there's a time to, just, like you said, Sit on the paddle board and join. Because that's personally relevant to that student, and that's something they're going to enjoy down the road. And I, I would say, most people that stand up paddle board, they get a little bit of fitness, you know, advantage and but it's not about fitness. It's not about burning calories. It's about being out in nature. It's being with friends, it's being in a cool environment. So that's fantastic, Joe. I love that we're we're rolling towards the end of our time, not that we really have a set time. But this has been a great conversation. We try to end with consistent questions. I think we've a little bit gotten away from in the last three episodes, which is okay, so two kind of facets, if I can. The first one is distinct advice for high school teachers looking to kind of dive into the meaningful phys ed framework. What kind of advice do you have for them? And then what's next for you? What's your next area of focus? Or, yeah, what's what's going on?

Jo Bailey:

Okay, so advice for teachers. Number one, I would, you know, I would start with speaking to your students, and I would share what you've heard and what you are considering with them, like, Hey, I just came across this information, and it said this and this and this. Maybe you can share some things for you from your experiences and see if they align, and what, what maybe could I do that would make, you know, get that feedback, whether it's, you know, in something formal, or it's or informal, make those notes. That's would be step one. And then I would say, look, look at what you're doing right now. And then maybe pick one thing, like, is this a place where I could have more choice? Because from one to three choices or one to five, whatever it might be, and then again, trial it out, see what works, gather the feedback and keep that process going. And I think teaching should always be an evolution of, you know, it's constantly changing. It's constantly shifting. You know, our students, my students, are always in the same age, but they're different because their environment changes, and what's going on around the world changes. So it's, it's, it's still fluid. Um, ask them, and then, yeah, I would focus on one or two things, like, don't try and change everything at once. You'll, you'll drive yourself crazy, but just keep it as an ongoing process. And yes, you're going to have some wins, and you're going to have some times where you you thought you had a really good idea and it didn't quite work out. That's also how you learn. You learn from when you mess things up, possibly more like the day that you went on a trip somewhere and you didn't pack enough food, or you got the wrong footwear on, it was super uncomfortable, or you were too cold. You learn more from those things than you do when it was the perfect day, even, you know, and something that might not have been enjoyable in the time, in hindsight, you realize, you know what, that was not great, but I got through it, and I now understand that my resilience muscle is, you know, got that little bit stronger because of it. So, yeah, start and I look, look for other people, the ideas like, the amount of times like I, you know, I, I creep on you, Ty, to see what you're doing. So I'm like, Oh, how can that? How could I possibly take an element of that and like the visual sticker charts I'd used something similar years ago, um, using solo taxonomy. And it was again, when the students can see that that visual, whether it's them seeing their progress or seeing a collective group of ideas from people. It's powerful, so simple visuals, I think, a huge for for people to gather information and data as well. Yeah, like, look around, ask questions, see if you can get other people on board. Like, again, I'm high school, but I've forever looked at to what other levels are doing, because good teaching is good teaching. And yes, the content may differ and the delivery might differ, the environment might differ, but there's so many things that you can take from that and put in, run it. Run it by other colleagues who aren't in your department, because they also might have some insight that you may not have thought of, or, you know, find out how their experiences were in a fired environment, because most people are pretty happy about sharing when things they didn't go well, and also when they had great experiences. And then, for me, it's it's just continuing to like, Okay, what's working, what isn't. Where am I going from here? So I, I said, my, my big focus this year has been on this net rocket class and trying to get kind of evolved that. And. And I've already, you know, taught it last semester, teaching it this semester, and it's been fun to try new things, or take what I learned in semester one, and like, you know, again, pull those strings and manipulate things to sort of kind of change it, to hopefully make it more successful, or manipulate, you know, go in a different direction. But I think, I mean, like, the nice thing is, I, I just want to keep learning so that I can make the experience better. Because, and that's, again, that's the, that's the thing I always keep in my head, it's, what can I do to give the students the best experience possible. So they walk away with that confidence in themselves to access whatever it is, whether it's now or five years, 10 years, 15 years down the line. So

Douglas Gleddie:

that student experience is so key. Yeah, I really liked what you said. I I'm, you know, took an economics course back in the day, but I would, I would go with this as vertical and horizontal integration. I love the fact that you reach to the middle school, to the elementary and chat with your colleagues there from your feeder schools or not. And I would encourage people who are doing this in elementary to also talk to their, you know, the schools that their kids are going into high school. That's a really cool concept that I haven't really heard anyone say yet. So we'll also credit you for that one, Joe.

Jo Bailey:

All right, thank you.

Douglas Gleddie:

Yeah. Well, thanks so much for coming on and walking and talking with us. You were walking anyways, Ty and I were sitting here like a couple of lumps, but it was so good to have you and just thanks so much.

Jo Bailey:

Thanks for joining me. I really appreciate it.

Ty Riddick:

Thank you for tuning in to the meaningful podcast. Experience really stands out to me from listening to Joe is just how transparent she is about her intentions with her students and how she embeds reflection into her classes. In addition, the activities that she's discussed, such as her swimming unit, are really designed to support participation in her local community, which has plenty of water based opportunities nearby. So the questions that I'm continuing to ask myself that I take away from this episode are, how can I be more transparent in my teaching, and how can I bridge the gap between school and community, especially in a high school context, we'd like to give a shout out to our listeners in Tokyo, as well as our new listeners in Mesa, Arizona. Doug and I will be back on April 20 with another bonus episode. See you then you