Digital Transformation & AI for Humans

Product Management Secrets: Powerful Growth Insights from Amazon and Innovative Startups

Amir Elion Season 1 Episode 37

In this episode we uncover Product Management Secrets with Amir Elion, an AI adoption and strategy advisor, Generative AI expert, innovation teacher, author, speaker, and CEO of Think Big Leaders from Israel, now based in Stockholm. Amir brings extensive experience from the startup and corporate worlds, former leader of Amazon’s innovation program.

Amir shares powerful growth insights from his journey at Amazon and innovative startups, offering valuable strategies that drive customer-centric product-led growth and innovation. 

Together, we explore how to balance rapid innovation with sustainable growth, leverage AI for product development, foster cross-functional collaboration, and implement agile methodologies for success.

Key Topics

Balancing Rapid Innovation with Sustainable Growth

The Role of the Product Manager

Customer-Centric Product Management

AI and Data-Driven Decision-Making in Product Management

Specialized Talent vs. Generalist Skills

Cross-Functional Collaboration and Stakeholder Alignment

Agile and Lean Methodologies in Product Management

Maintaining Agility While Scaling

Three Secrets of Successful Product Management

Whether you're part of a corporate giant or a startup, this conversation will transform not only how you think about technology but also how you lead and manage products.

Connect with Amir Elion on LinkedIn

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About the host, Emi Olausson Fourounjieva
With over 20 years in IT, digital transformation, business growth & leadership, Emi specializes in turning challenges into opportunities for business expansion and personal well-being.
Her contributions have shaped success stories across the corporations and individuals, from driving digital growth, managing resources and leading teams in big companies to empowering leaders to unlock their inner power and succeed in this era of transformation.

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Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to Digital Transformation and AI for Humans with your host, emi. In this podcast, we delve into how technology intersects with leadership, innovation and, most importantly, the human spirit. Each episode features visionary leaders who understand that at the heart of success is the human touch nurturing a winning mindset, fostering emotional intelligence and building resilient teams. In today's episode, we reveal product management secrets. My amazing guest, amir Leon, from Israel, living in Stockholm, is going to share his powerful growth insights from Amazon and innovative startups. Amir is AI adoption and strategy advisor, generative, ai expert, innovation teacher, author and speaker, ex-amazon innovation program lead and business owner. Ceo of Think Big Leaders. Hello, amir, I'm so happy to have you here. Are you excited?

Speaker 2:

Oh, super excited. Thank you, amir, for inviting me and first of all, I want to congratulate you on this amazing idea on kind of bringing the human back into the digital transformation loop. So much times I've seen this. You know people running forward about transformation digital AI, getting excited but forgetting the humans in the loop. So thank you for doing this and thank you for inviting me.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much, amit. It's my pleasure and honor to have you and I'm really pleased to hear that, because I see it myself from my side as well, and the best thing I could do is to introduce it by myself and start inviting those who share this vision. So it's great to have you here for today's conversation. Let's start the conversation and transform not just our technologies but our ways of thinking and leading, and if you are interested in connecting or collaborating, you can find more information in the description, subscribe and stay tuned for more episodes. Amir, to start with, could you please share a few words about yourself, your journey and why you chose to work with AI today?

Speaker 2:

Yes. So my journey is interesting. I haven't planned it thoroughly, so sometimes I planned and I thought forward this is where I want to go and I work towards it is where I want to go and I worked towards it. In other cases, I just went with the opportunities and it took me through different types of organizations and different types of experiences. So I've worked at consulting companies, innovation consulting and educational and even nonprofits educational and even non-profits. And then I had the opportunity to work at some corporates such as Teva Pharmaceuticals and Motorola. I then moved to kind of more startup side, so I was director of products in a couple of startups. One of them was learning management systems, saas solutions, and another one was virtual and augmented reality. So that was obviously very different dynamics and different type of activities.

Speaker 2:

And then, lastly, just before where I am now, so I'd moved to Amazon, which was kind of maybe a great opportunity to bring both the startup and corporate spirit together.

Speaker 2:

We probably will talk about this later about the Amazon mindset. So I think it was a great opportunity to see how can you combine the corporate and the startup. And I was at Amazon five years, ended up leading the innovation program for AWS in the Nordics, the cloud business of Amazon, and last year I felt it was time for trying to do things myself, and now I have my own company focusing on innovation, building the innovation mechanisms with customers and AI and, as you mentioned, ai is kind of a big focus of what I do now and I'm very curious about it. I've been doing things with customers, first at Amazon and then by myself now, and I think Big Bitters keeps me on my toes. So many things happening there and so much big questions right that we need to ask ourselves, and also related to how we started about where is the human and the AI and what does that mean for us and for our work and for our businesses? Right products?

Speaker 1:

absolutely and for the future of humanity as well yes your story is very impressive and you are right. I love that approach where you can put together the experience from the corporate world and from the startups. In today's fast-paced environment, both startups and large corporations like Amazon need to balance rapid innovation with sustainable growth. How can companies implement product-led growth strategies effectively?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So the one thing that you know if you follow Amazon, if you look at Amazon's mission, the one very much focused on how can I create value and who is that customer or user or persons that I'm supposed to bring value to? And whenever I think about innovation and products, too often I see both in corporates but in startups, they get excited about the product and they get excited about the technology, and they get excited about the technology and how great their company is and they're going to change the world or whatnot, and then they forget it's about the customer right. And I've seen this with even very successful companies that have very good track record. And that may be the trap that they're in, because they've kind of fallen accustomed to their own success and they forget that it's not about us, it's about the people we're supposed to serve. And again, it also applies if you're not in the private sector. So I've done this also with you know, public sectors, municipalities, nonprofits, it's all the same. Of course, there it's not like a private paying customer. It may be citizens, it may be, you know, if it's education, then it's maybe the children or their parents, but start with the ones that you're supposed to serve. And you know, at Amazon it even has its own title and that's kind of the focus for product-led growth, which is working backwards, work backwards from the needs of those customers.

Speaker 2:

So that would be my first point. The other point I want to stress is don't just work on assumptions. Think about evidence and data points and make sure that you're not forcing your assumptions on the reality and looking at the reality with the lens that you're already going to put on. But you know, come open, be ready to be surprised and be challenged and even give up some of your assumptions once they are proven wrong. So that's the second thing. And maybe lastly and we can talk more about it maybe in a later question or discussion Think big. Right, there's, especially with today's technologies and all the opportunities, there's so many things you can do and don't limit yourself. You know, think big, but then it's very hard to okay, where do we start? So start small, think big, start small and then be ready to scale quickly. Small and then be ready to scale quickly that's kind of the thing that I would say allows you to both be customer focused and grow when the time is right.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for sharing your recommendations, samir, and your words warm up my heart. I couldn't agree more. Let's talk about the role of the product manager. How does Amazon define and organize this role, and how is it different compared to the approach taken by startups?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So I would say Amazon has these leadership principles right and these leadership principles are kind of encapsulate or capture Amazon's culture and the way it also tries to select the people who can drive that kind of success and growth relentlessly. And one of those leadership principles which I think is very relevant to product management is ownership. And one way to explain this is the leadership principle of ownership means that you can never say this is not my job, this is not my problem, this is not my problem, this is marketing or this is R&D, or this is customer support, this is not my job. You own the thing right. And if we're talking about product management, you own everything about the product and you have to be involved in anything from strategy and you know planning and portfolio to the nitty-gritty details of the features and the UI and the UX. It doesn't mean you have to do everything yourself, but you have to take ownership and responsibility for everything and you have to collect the right kind of people around you. So that's one thing I would say ownership from end to end. You're like the CEO of the product, I would say.

Speaker 2:

And the second thing that is also related to how Amazon organizes around product teams. There is around the products. The team is supposed to be self-sufficient to build whatever they are building. So you should have there a multidisciplinary team of both domain experts, right? The ones who know about you know, if it's retail, that they understand the customer, they understand the customer journeys, they understand what you're selling and how.

Speaker 2:

The technical experts right, either the software engineers or, if it's an AI product, so machine learning and data scientists. So you're supposed to have all the capabilities within the team to succeed with whatever you want to succeed to build that product, to evolve that product. So, as a product manager, your responsibility is also to make sure that we have the right team in place and that they're all focused on the kind of custom goals that we're trying to achieve. So I would highlight ownership and the uniqueness of a team which owns everything and drives everything, and also it leads to other things. Because, then, coming back to ownership, if the team is the one that's responsible, they can never say this is the other team's responsibility. If something breaks, even after we've launched, it's our responsibility. It's not the support team's responsibility, it's ours. Right, we will be awake at night if it doesn't work.

Speaker 1:

I agree that's how it is, and actually that's how it should be, but unfortunately it's not always the case, so that's why we're sharing these best practices, so that other companies which are still not there can apply them for their success. We've been talking about customer centricity, and you already mentioned that that is the core of any business, and product centricity as well, but we always have to keep the customers front and center, so customer centricity is critical for product success and, from your experience, what are the key strategies that organizations can use to ensure that they are truly listening to and addressing customer needs in product management?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I think I referred to working backwards right Just before right, and I think that is worthwhile double clicking on right, because at Amazon that's the mechanism, that's the way, that's the way that the company organizes to ensure that products are built around customers, and it's called working backwards. So it starts with the team and the product manager and leaders asking themselves what we call the working backwards questions, and these are deceptively simple and obvious, but the answers are not right. So the first question is who is the customer? And I would be always surprised when I came in you know working with customers in the Nordics and coming in and talking to them about working backwards and really great, successful companies. You know the best companies in the Nordics and I would come into a team that I'm working with and ask them this question and I would get five, six different answers. Or they would say well, everybody who's buying our products? That's not an answer. That's not a good answer Because it means that whatever you're launching, it's not solving a specific customer need, not solving a specific customer problem. So start with the customer, put in the time to understand who's the customer, what's the problem, before you think about your solution.

Speaker 2:

And then the other artifact that Amazon would use in working backwards is jumping into the future and writing an imaginary press release from when you launch that product that you're thinking of working on and that forces you to write down with high clarity what you're thinking of doing. Right, and that's the narrative. Right, writing it in a narrative. And you can't put it on a presentation. A presentation maybe has a few bullet points, maybe it really depends on the speaker and how they present it. If you write it down in one page, you know think of it In one page. You need to capture the vision of the product and how it's going to delight and change people's lives. That's very hard work and it takes practice and you know there's reviews and you get people criticizing or giving you feedback on what you've written and challenging you. So going through these iterations and having a written document saying this is what we're going to build helps a lot in keeping this focus, because you will get challenged. You will get said okay, but why? This is more for us? Why would as a customer, why would I care? And there's a.

Speaker 2:

The part I like most in the press release is the paragraph where you put an imaginary customer testimonial, so somebody who's now using our product or solution or software or whatever it is. They're not from our marketing team, they're not from our R&D team. They have to be authentic. They really have to speak with their own voice and they have to demonstrate how what we've built is actually great, not in technical jargon, saying, oh, we've used this incredible machine learning model Well, they don't understand machine learning models, they care about other things. Learning model Well, they don't understand machine learning models, they care about other things.

Speaker 2:

So that press release and then it is followed by a frequently asked questions document going to the details. But maybe to close off my long-winded answer, the reason Amazon has this is exactly to answer back to your question is to ensure that whatever you're building, even before you write the first piece of code or order, the first piece of hardware, is going to be focused on that customer. And it's not enough just to tell people in the morning well, we have to be focused on the customer. We have to be focused on the customer. You have to put in place mechanisms that help them do that again and again and again. And for Amazon it was working backwards in the PR FAQ. If you're in a startup or a different company. You have a different way of doing things. Put in mechanisms that ensure that you achieve that thing that you set out to do.

Speaker 1:

Amazing. I love that approach and it is important to be short and concise with your vision and everything you want to achieve. Otherwise, it's very difficult to run that cross-functional collaboration and put customers front and center. If you have no vision and no strategy, it will be really difficult to come where you want to come. Ai and data-driven decision-making are transforming product management across industries. How can both large enterprises and startups leverage AI to enhance product development while ensuring they don't lose the human touch?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you know the key question, right, and the focus of your podcast. Maybe. When I'm speaking with customers about where should they apply AI and how should they apply AI, especially in products, I usually like to divide it just to make things easier to understand and see where you could begin into three separate opportunities or three different pillars you can look at. The first one is your internal productivity right, so you can use AI to analyze customer comment, feature requests, observe how customers are using your products and see the data that is coming in right. And then you can use AI to accelerate or scale what you're doing and kind of the routine tasks that are there. Let's think about different scenarios and create different personas. And, of course, now you can also use it to code right, with software assistance and things like that and automated testing that come into play. So one pillar is productivity, your own product development management processes and how can you boost them and make them faster, better, AI enhanced or augmented. The second opportunity I see is creating value, either in the product itself or in the channels that communicating with customers right? So, just to give an example, can we build AI features into our products that help customers with their challenges and with their workflows right. So if they need to make a decision, can we do a recommendation with AI? If they need to write some content, can we draft something for them and we're seeing that in already being implemented in quite a number of products. Can we transcribe things for them, Can we translate, Using the AI capabilities to make the actual experiences in the product better, or, as I said, in the way that they onboard. So how do we do the training? How do we give them support? How do we help them make the most of the product right in the channels around it?

Speaker 2:

And the third one which I've seen very few think about, but I think it's critical, is the way that AI is going to disrupt value chains, business models and operating models, Because with the new capabilities of AI, it's going to get there. And we need to look into the value chains, see where can we ourselves disrupt and move up or down the value chain or think of a completely new business model. So, maybe because the cost of intelligence is basically coming down right to nearly zero or very low, we, for example, provide solutions for customers we couldn't before because the cost was too high or we weren't able to reach them because of language or geography or things like that. So different opportunities that open up, because if you're not going to do it, somebody else your competitor or the startup is going to do it and they're going to reshuffle the value chain for you. So, to summarize productivity, value creation and disruption.

Speaker 1:

I absolutely enjoy your structured approach to answering the questions, and the third part was the most important because, as you mentioned, not so many are thinking about it, but it is crucial to take it into consideration today in order to succeed tomorrow. Product focus is becoming increasingly important, especially in roles like AI product management. Like AI product management, how do you think the companies should decide when to bring in specialized talent versus nurturing generalist skills?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so obviously it depends on the stage of the company. If they're small and they don't have the capabilities, they can't hire in like a full-time but they still want to do something, so they can do like a contract work or bringing a specialist to do just to set up the foundations. It also depends on the nature of the product, right? If it is heavily influenced by data and automation and mostly digital things, then it makes more sense to build it internally, those capabilities, because you're going to need them again and again and you have the capabilities to use that capability again and again. If it's just like a one-time thing you want to add, maybe it's okay to bring somebody from the outside and help. And then it also depends on your cultural, your cultural fit and where you are with your culture.

Speaker 2:

If you feel that internally you don't have the mindset not just the skill set, but the mindset to move as fast as you should be thinking.

Speaker 2:

So this is directed more for the leaders, right, for the leaders, for the executives, for the CEOs, if you feel that your team needs somebody to shake them, then maybe you need somebody from the outside, which, because you know this, is human psychology and dynamics If the same person comes from inside and says something, people will take it differently. If it comes from an expert coming from the outside and has some experience and showing some examples from the outside, just you know, in their mind they will listen differently. I'm not saying that this is a good thing or a bad thing, but this is the nature of humans, right? So sometimes you need a neutral expert, right, if you will, or an objective person to come in, or someone with a different perspectives, and you can't find it inside. Ultimately, I think you should have those people internally, but you know, maybe, as to start moving that boat in the right direction, you do need a push from the outside.

Speaker 1:

I so agree and, yes, I saw the same trend. That was one of the reasons why I decided to run my business outside of the corporate, but collaborating in the corporate world. For the exactly same reason because your impact grows and the way you are percepted and your experience and value creation is taken to a completely different level, and that's how it is. So it is good to have those talents internally, but it's not always the case that they are going to create the same level of impact compared to somebody who is coming from the outside and has a very clear scope on creating that change. Whether in a corporate giant like Amazon or smaller startups, cross-functional collaboration and stakeholder alignment are essential for product success. What are the best practices for fostering strong collaboration?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I mentioned one, which was, you know, using narratives to communicate and not just meetings that are wasting people's time and people are playing on their phone or not really listening and or just being passive and not being able to contribute. So you can have a meeting, but if the first part of the meeting is about reading a document that captures the essence of the discussion and then the second half is about let's dive deep and let's challenge this narrative and let's look into the assumptions, I think that is very helpful. It requires more from the people preparing that meeting, but that's the right thing to do, right? They don't just okay, this is what I want to. This is just the agenda. No, you don't need to write an agenda. You really need to write a full story. That's how they work, but that's going to bring more results from the people you bring into the room, right? So that's one thing, but the next thing I'm going to say is my sound a bit controversial.

Speaker 2:

I'm going to claim that sometimes, instead of collaboration, you should remove dependencies. You should have less people you need to collaborate with and why am I saying this? Because this slows you down, Right? So you should build the organization in such a way that there are less dependencies. I don't depend on another team to deliver what I need to deliver and it's okay.

Speaker 2:

I mean, obviously one team cannot do everything, but if there is something I need from that team, I don't need to have them in a meeting. It should be something that is very clearly documented. So I don't know an internal wiki page, API documentation, and if I need something from them, I don't need to wait for them so I can build. And this is, by the way, this is the essence of the cloud and how AWS started separating a monolith into microservices with APIs, so you don't depend on one team holding off the others. So separate, remove the need for collaboration. When it's not necessary or whenever you can do it, then each team can run very quickly by itself, but when you do need collaboration, do it in a way that is kind of very effective. So narratives and obviously kind of relevant KPIs and things like that.

Speaker 1:

That is actually invaluable To narrow down the circle of those who need that alignment. It helps to speed up the process and come to the agreement around what you need to move forward so much faster and in an easier way. Super efficient advice. Thank you so much for sharing it. And let's talk a little bit about the agile methodologies. They transform product management. What are the key agile and lean practices that organizations should adopt to maintain innovation and deliver value rapidly?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So Agile has been around for a while, right, and there's already kind of different versions of it and the interpretations of it, and I'm not going to repeat things that you can find, you know, in the regular books and the courses about it. What I think is interesting to consider is what you're building right. So a lot of times, what I see is you know I'm just going to spend some time on the acronym MVP, right, and teams that are trying to build MVP minimum viable product. I think you should rethink that term. At Amazon it's called MLP minimum lovable product. Because what happens with MVP? You try to build all the features that work, which makes it viable.

Speaker 2:

But I think, especially in early stages and we're talking about agile and quick releases and getting quick feedback the important thing is not having everything working in a reasonable way. The important thing is checking if what you're building is relevant at all, and that means that you very quickly, in an agile way, need to launch and check if your assumptions are correct and be ready for changing and pivoting completely if you discover that customers don't love this right. So maybe they don't like having real-time translation of video calls or whatever, right, maybe they say something different. So maybe we should pivot. So don't waste time building a viable product, build a lovable feature or features and then quickly iterate, and then, when you discover that lovable thing, then double down, then do very quick agile. Keep those users delighted, keep listening to their feedback and then make them love the product every time again, so they have to get up every morning and love your product. That's kind of the mindset that I try to add on top of agile, right.

Speaker 2:

I think, I don't know if that makes any sense.

Speaker 1:

I love it. And yes, by the way, it's all about love, even in business. So our conversation is getting just more and more valuable and I'm sure everybody who is listening to us and watching this interview is getting those golden nuggets along the way. We are progressing. Companies often emphasize speed and iterative development. How can organizations ensure they remain agile while scaling?

Speaker 2:

How can organizations ensure they remain agile while scaling. Yeah. So here I'm going to refer to another of Amazon's leadership principles which I like a lot and also it's maybe my own personal tendency and that's called bias for action. It says that speed matters in business. It's even critical, I would say, and here it's good to mention maybe a mental model that we use. It's called the one-way and the two-way door. A one-way door is a door where you open it, you walk through it, it closes behind you. You can't go back. So kind of a one-time decision that has critical impact and if you go back, it either means you know disappointing customers very much, lots of lost costs that you've put into something or your reputation. So something serious, right, a two-way door is something that you walk through the door, you see what's on the other side. If it's working, you can continue, if it's not, you walk back and you take another door. Now the key thing to understand is most of the things are two-way doors, or, if you think they're a one-way door, you can break them down into two-way doors, which are smaller decisions, and those decisions should be at the hand and should be delegated to the edge, to individuals and to small teams. If you're going to wait and this happens a lot in large corporates right, if you escalate every decision up the ladder, you're going to slow down. There's no way you can speed up if all the decisions are going to go up. So you need to push as much decision as possible to the edge up. So you need to push as much decision as possible to the edge.

Speaker 2:

When I led a team at Amazon and one of my team members came to me and told me listen, I need your advice. I need to do this or that. I'm not sure what to do. So I said listen, I don't know better than you. You're closer to the field. It's a two-way door, or make it a two-way door. And once you have these mental models, you immediately understand what that means. Try it out, make it in a smart way so you don't lose customer trust and things like that, and then come back, tell me what the result was and teach us, teach the team, what went well, what didn't, and if it's a success, then continue down that path. If it's a failure, change your direction and try something else. So push those decisions to the end, putting the mental model of speed in decision making in the hands of the people who need to make those decisions.

Speaker 1:

That sounds amazing and that's true. There are not so many points where there is no return. But it is also important for us to be creative enough to not turn the two-way door into non-return points.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, and that's kind of the garbage ground of decisions, right? That model that you've taken decisions and you've turned them in your mind into one-way doors Because you said, oh well, your ego doesn't allow you to walk back through that door, so ego you need to put aside, it stands in the way of speed.

Speaker 1:

Actually, that advice is applicable to anything in life. I would say Absolutely. Thank you for sharing and mentioning what are the three secrets of successful product management for driving business growth that you would like to share with other leaders today To wrap up our conversation.

Speaker 2:

I think it is so important to share what you've been using and what you can recommend to others the biggest secrets to reveal yeah, I don't know if there's so much secrets, but I've talked about them in this conversation and uh, but I mean the things to keep in mind, maybe. So obviously, customer obsession is the first one. You know, whatever you do, every time, every morning, you get up every discussion that you have in the team. Be obsessed with customers, never be satisfied with you know. If they're happy today again coming back to human psychology they're going to take it for granted your incredible product today is going to be just the normal tomorrow. So you can't stop, or you know, um, so be obsessed with on continuously delighting whoever you're serving.

Speaker 2:

The other thing which I also kind of mentioned earlier is base your decisions on data. But here's a is a twist. Right, if your data is telling you one thing and then you come across an observation, a story, an anecdote of something that happened, like the outlier, right, don't dismiss it as well. This is not in line with the data. This is probably a hint for something that you're missing. So maybe your data is misinterpreted or you're dismissing the forward-thinking customers or the ones who never complain, right? You're missing those. You're looking at those rather than the small portion that is complaining. So make data-driven and story-driven decisions, I would say.

Speaker 2:

So that's the second point. And then I don't know. That maybe is obvious, but never stop innovating. For me it's also. It becomes boring when we're stuck with one thing and we're just happy with this product. Never stop coming up. It also keeps the team motivated. It keeps myself again, if I can speak. You know what motivates me? It keeps me motivated. I get up in the morning and I want to make things better for people, for the world, for the stakeholders. So never stop with that energy. Keep it going.

Speaker 1:

Thank you. That is so positive and so valuable. Never stop innovating, be creative, keep going. Thank you so much, amir. It's been such a pleasure to have this conversation today. Thank you for sharing your advice, your experience and your wisdom with us.

Speaker 2:

It's my pleasure and thank you for having me and always happy to talk to you.

Speaker 1:

So am I. Thank you for joining us on Digital Transformation and AI for Humans. I am Amy, and it was enriching to share this time with you. Remember, the core of any transformation lies in our human nature how we think, feel and connect with others. It is about enhancing our emotional intelligence, embracing a winning mindset and leading with empathy and insight. Subscribe and stay tuned for more episodes where we uncover the latest trends in digital business and explore the human side of technology and leadership. Until next time, keep nurturing your mind, fostering your connections and leading with heart.

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