Commercial Real Estate Brokerage, Market Update, & Trends with Guest Mel Giannone and Host Stephen Simpson - Ep.10

On this episode Stephen interviews Mel Giannone. Mel is the founder and President of Paramount Real Estate Group and has over 30 years of experience in the commercial real estate field, specializing in leasing and investment properties in southern Ontario.  

Paramount helps clients with sales, leasing, investment and syndication of commercial properties and delivers Customized Asset And Occupancy Solutions For Entrepreneurial Companies And Individual Investors Seeking Property Across The Greater Golden Horseshoe Of Ontario. Paramount’s Passive Investing Program provides a Seamless Way For Clients and Investor Partners To Earn Income While Avoiding The Hassles Of Day-to-Day Management Of Operating A Commercial Property. They Handle Every Facet Of The Real Estate Process, From Property Search And Deal Negotiation To Acquisition, Management And Tenant Relations. 

Links and Connect on socials:  

Web: www.paramountrealestate.ca 

Email: mel@paramountrealestate.ca 

LinkedIn: /paramount-mel-giannone 

Insta: @paramountrealestategta 

X: @giannone_mel 

Youtube: @paramountrealestate 

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Subscribe: @focuscapitalpodcastwithstephen  

Listen on your favorite Podcast Player: www.buzzsprout.com/2358487  

Web: www.focuscapital.ca 

Transcript

0:00

for joining us, and we'll see you next time. Hi guys, Stephen Simpson here. Welcome to the Focus Capital Podcast. On this episode, I interview Mel Giannone. Mel is a commercial real estate broker and the president of Paramount Real Estate Group based here in the GTA. We have a great conversation talking about all things commercial real estate. We talk about the market here in Southern Ontario. Some of the different asset classes in commercial real estate and what investors should be thinking about when considering residential versus commercial real estate investments. It's a great conversation. I think you're going to get a lot out of it. And if you're interested in finding out more about what we're doing at Focus Capital, I invite you to check out our website, focuscapital. ca on there. If you leave your email, you can get access to free resources, like our investing guides and newsletter. And with that, I hope you enjoy the show.

Stephen: 0:59

Mel, welcome to the podcast.

Mel: 1:01

Steven, thanks. Great to be here. Congrats on having a podcast. This is awesome. This is my first one ever. So I'm excited. Absolutely.

Stephen: 1:07

I appreciate it. Yeah, it's going to be, I'm really looking forward to the discussion today. You and I have known each other for a couple of years now, always have good conversations about what's going on in the Toronto market, commercial real estate and leasing and investing and all sorts of good stuff. So I'm really looking forward to the chat today. What I thought we'd start with is just, um, learning a little bit more about you, some of your influences and how you initially got into real estate. I'm always interested in people's backstory and maybe what some of those kind of early influences were, whether it was a book they read or a mentor or somebody that sort of, pushed them into looking into real estate either as a career or as an investment vehicle. So I'd love it if you could just share a little bit more about that and how you initially got into into real estate in the first place.

Mel: 1:54

So my name is Mel Giannone. I have a brokerage company. I've been in commercial real estate for about, just over 30 years now. Started off with a big, one of the big five companies, Cushman and Wakefield. You might be. Might know them. Did about 10 years there, started my own company ever since, mainly doing tenant representation buyer representation. Other than that, I'm a lot like most people. I'm a father to three boys. I should call them men now, but my job is done. My wife is pretty much happy about this stage in our life, but I've got three lovely boys and a wonderful wife. We've just celebrated our 25th anniversary. So that's a pretty big milestone. Puts us at a rare class, I think. Yeah, just a lot like most people. Like I said, a son of an immigrant family who migrated here in the sixties they started in the garment district. Toronto, Spadina, and Adelaide around there. That's where I got my first job. And I really got a first taste of how immigrants grinded it out back then. And I knew that there had to be a better way. How I stumbled into real estate actually came a little later. So after that first decade of my parents, really working seven days a week, it seemed I was going to school, but I'd walk to school because they were always at work. And then. Eventually they phoned me at home. Did you get home? Okay. All right. We're coming home from work. They ended up starting their own business. And I thought this is great because the adage trading dollars for your time is a dead end street, so there's gotta be a better way to make a living or creating wealth. So they did that. They took what they knew and they started their own business. But that didn't stop the hours of work, right? Like when you're an entrepreneur, it's fantastic. You're empowered, but it's also a lot of dedication and sacrifice. So that kept on going. But what I did notice was. The first time that I ever met their landlord. So their landlord, nice old man, he had been in real estate development, did houses, that sort of thing. But he retired with a bunch of different properties. And all he would do is come around and visit his tenants every once in a while. He'd come by once a month to pick up a check. And, as he came in, Being, being the respectful elder, they would, he would come in and, my parents would just pamper him. Hello. How are you? Great. Here's your check, sir. Could I offer you a coffee? He just got in, got pampered, treated like gold. And I thought, wow, I want to be this guy. I know what my parents are doing, the sacrifice, but this guy here, he's got it made, so I thought there was something to it. And as as time progressed, I got to know him a little more and he told me how he had grew his company and then. Eventually, as he got older, he shrunk it, but he held on to the properties and really His retirement pension was his cash flow from the properties that he had. So that would be his his distributions every month. And we just go by and say hello to everybody, make sure everything is okay. And then pick up a check and then go. And I thought, wow, okay, so this is how I want to spend my life. Like focused on what this guy is doing. He's coming up in a nice imported sports car. And he gets treated like he's a movie star. This is great. So I thought there was something to that. Eventually when I graduated, I wanted to get into development. Now, if you recall, I'm a little older than most people out there, but when I graduated, it was 1993 and we just came out of this real estate bubble, but on the commercial side, it was really bad. There were a few big developers and landlords out there that were really You know, all the headlines there was, canary wharf in the UK and Olympia and York is struggling and Cadillac Prairie View is struggling and Bramalea went under and Dylex is going under. And here I am, I'm ready to hit the world running, trying to look for a career in real estate and that didn't happen. So what I did was I thought, Okay. During this time period until the economy really gets back on his feet, I should get to know who the players in the industry are. And so I ended up getting my first career job in the research department of one of the commercial brokerage firms. So I started off on the industrial side, just tracking statistics and data, and then moved over to the office side. And when I did that, I got to know the salespeople that were in the office. Now I just missed. One of the greatest periods in real estate commission history, you would get bonuses, you get trips and you get cars and boats and the rest of it. I came into it and you're lucky if you got a gift card to Tim Hortons or something like that. So I missed it, but I saw how much money these guys were able to make given the amount of time and effort that they put into something. And most of it was Just nurturing relationships. And I thought this is a different dynamic. I'm not getting paid by the hour. I don't have to put in more hours in order to make more money. It's all about creating those relationships and those relationships eventually the bro, and you get referrals and people will come to you, which is fantastic. So I thought, you know what? I might just park myself here for a little longer and and just get mentored by some of these gentlemen. And that's what I did. I got my feet wet into the commercial real estate market first in the research department. Understanding the product, understanding who the developers and landlords were, and then eventually understanding how a deal gets put together. And with that, over the course of 10 years, I grew my own base of clientele. Always on the representation side, I try to, there's 2 thoughts. You can either hunt or fish, right? You can take on a listing and wait for people to call off your sign or call. So it's like fishing. You're just waiting for fish to come down the stream and you catch. I was on the other side. I was like, okay, I want to go after companies that are growing. I want to go after sectors that are in expansion. And so I thought, okay, let me do that. I'd rather represent the clients and customers that are a lot more entrepreneurial, like my own history and my background with my family. Then just sit there and write reports all day. This is who came in today. I'll follow up with them to see if there's any further interest. And this is why we didn't lease out the space. I thought, oh man, that would be a miserable life. So I was always on the representation side. And then eventually that Went into investment. So from leasing and sales to investment, and that was a whole other realm. Now, if you know anything about corporate real estate, especially on the brokerage side, everything is in silos, right? It's almost like residential real estate where everybody farms a territory. On commercial real estate, it's a lot more of, okay, you are the specialist in one asset class, and you might even have a broken town. You are the specialist in one asset class within this geographic area. Now, in order to get onto the investment side, you had to be of a really special breed because you're dealing with people's money, like pension funds and asset managers that have a lot of wealth. So you got to know your math and you got to know how the rest of the economic world runs. So we're talking about capital. We're not just talking about real estate, but how it relates to other possible. Investment opportunities and you've got to figure out where the opportunity is within real estate to present that to your buyers. And asset managers. So to get to that level where we can do investment, there was a whole lot of learning, whether that's academic learning or just shadowing people that were doing that. And eventually that's what led to me to doing what I'm doing today. And this is how we met because we're doing syndication and we're looking to acquire properties for decent returns for not only for ourselves, but for our partners too. So that's my timeline, the chronology of how I. Started the reason I got into it was more of just being in awe of that gentleman that had it all together and I you know, I contrasted that with the hard work and I guess they were toiling But at the same time they were proud to have their own business of being an entrepreneur. So mixing those together I work for myself and I work in real estate and I haven't worked for that developer since and maybe i'll become a developer next but we'll see what the next stage of my life's journey holds

Stephen: 9:52

Yeah, that's a great story. I think, looking back, we've all had some of those early influences of just, even at a young age, meeting somebody who maybe challenged the way that you thought about careers and businesses and things like that. And I remember. Once as a young engineer doing a project for it was a building project. So it was probably a 18, 20 story building. And we were part of the architectural and engineering team looking at that. And I remember the owner of the building was there at the table, looking at all the plans and, talking to the architects and I happened to be there as a young engineer and I looked across the table and I didn't know who this was. And I said, who's that guy? And he said, Oh, they own the building.

Mel: 10:40

Yeah,

Stephen: 10:40

And I said, what do you mean the whole building? And so it was one of those cool experiences similar to what you had, where you just think, okay yeah, that's somebody who's obviously playing playing the game at a whole different level here. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's really cool to listen to those influences and those stories about those early experiences, those are

Mel: 10:56

I think it's great. Like even situations like what we're doing here, like sharing these stories and sharing experiences. You have your own unique experiences and I have mine. But you'll find that as you pull back the curtain it's not so mystical and magical. Everybody takes off on the same path, right? You start off small, you do smaller projects, you learn from that, you move on to something bigger. And then you realize these are the things I don't like. And these are the things that are giving me the most headache. I'm going to move away from that. And here's an opportunity to do something in commercial real estate as opposed to residential, people grow. And I see this all the time as I talk to more and more investors and want to be investors. They'll all start off, the same way. Look I did a renovation of my house. I think I can do this to a second investment, or a first investment property out there, I'll rehab that. Maybe I'll flip it, maybe I'll renovate it and then rent it out. And then eventually they realized that dealing with tenants is a little tricky. They realized that there's a cap on the rent and there's a whole lot of risk that goes associated with that. So then you graduate to something a little bigger, it might be multifamily. Now you're doing things that scale. And then you get to a place where you and I are at where you might not want to necessarily put all your eggs in one basket in multifamily or residential and you start branching out. You branch out into other asset classes, and then you start getting into even the more multi family. Obscure. I won't even say it's obscure, you might get really specific. It could be medical labs, or it could be medical office, or it could be self storage. And you realize that there is a whole range, a wide spectrum of different possibilities, all within real estate that you can tap into. You just have to graduate to it. And that's what takes time. But the best thing to do, if you want to, if you ever have an opportunity, you always want to pay for speed, right? If I came to you and said, Steve, would you be my mentor? I know that I can gain three or four years of experience in such a short time, I'd be willing to pay you for that. So that's where a lot of these people join communities. And pay for the mentorship and it opens them up to a wide range of different opportunities. And I would advocate for that all day long, self improvement. It's always great.

Stephen: 13:05

Yeah, no, that's that's awesome for sure. I wanted to ask you a bit more about. So building your own brokerage, Paramount, and obviously, you're operating in Toronto. Toronto is one of the fastest growing, if not the fastest growing city in North America. It's obviously had its ups and downs over the years, but I'd love it if you could just talk a little bit about what you've seen over the years, either through the, the great recession back in 08 09 and then obviously in the last few years with COVID, how has that sort of impacted the brokerage and over the years, and what are some of the things that you've seen with

Mel: 13:36

Yeah, let me speak on that. I mentioned a little bit ago that I missed the heyday. Back in the early nineties, but these cycles, they come around again, right? They repeat themselves and they are real estate cycles within economic cycles. So roughly every seven years, but now I realized the last cycle that we were in were super stretched, right? We're 10, 11 years, 12 years. Hey man, how's this ever going to end? And it took a black Swan event to end it. But what I did see was that the change in corporate real estate or the change in brokerage and how it works with the advent of more technology coming on a lot of things have changed from the beginning. So from the beginning, it used to be look, you just need to get in people's faces. Here's a telephone book. Here's a telephone, get to know as many people as you can. Then you had those little Palm pilots, remember that? And you had the Newton, the Apple Newton at the time. This might be before most people's times, but yeah, then before the Blackberry came out and Apple's got their iPhone. But back then you were keeping all your guys either on a spreadsheet or in one of these little Palm pilots. And it's Oh, I got to email that person. Okay. Put that down. Let me email that person. And email was new back then. So adopting the technology so that you can scale up. But what ended up happening was that the actual brokerage side also got a little more sophisticated. So rather than having Stephen Simpson represent, I don't know, let's just say Amazon across the nation it would then be sent to a corporate service department. And so Stephen would lose that relationship that he had for years, but there would be a salaried force that was under contract with Amazon within your corporation. Your corporate real estate brokerage that would handle all those assignments. So that did a couple of things for Steven. It didn't make sense because they, man, that was my bread and butter. I fought long and hard to create the relationships with the people at Amazon so I could represent them coast to coast. And I'm making a good living off of that, but now that's been elevated up and taken out of my hands. And now I'm just left with the. Like I said, either in this geographic area, in this asset class, that's all I'm going to do for Amazon. The rest of it is going to be handled out. So that rubbed people the wrong way, especially, people in the senior level that had those relationships and might've had four or five international conglomerate companies. That had, they had these relationships with those people were probably the hardest hurt and probably said, you know what the heck with this? I'm going to go on my own. For me, it was different. I love being a part of a group. I didn't like the bureaucracy of having so many different levels of a bigger corporation. So if a contractor or a company wanted some work done or had an assignment or real estate assignment. It sometimes would be called into head office downtown and then eventually Delegated out to the suburban offices if you're in the suburban office and you had the relationship because that company actually resides in the suburbs It's now going through corporate head office and they want to get their pal to flesh and then Whatever's left over split with you and then you might have to split it with the guy at corporate services But And so it just became so much, but the sad part is that direct communication with the guy at Amazon, let's say, where you might have just been able to pick up the phone call, you're no longer allowed to do that because you had to check in with 2 or 3 other layers. And that slowed the whole process down. And as there are more people that are involved, things get lost in the translation. I thought so and so was going to handle it. I thought we meant we were supposed to do this and the ball gets dropped. So the more levels of more layers you add onto it, the more complex things get in the more risks there is for failure. So coming from an entrepreneurial family and coming from that entrepreneurial perspective, I always thought it was best to have that direct line of communication. So in my company, I am the owner and I want to deal with other owners. I, as much as I respect the protocol of people being the facilities manager and the rest of it, I always try to deal from one over one owner to another owner, one peer to another peer, because there's less chance of things getting messed up. And the speed at which we can do business is a lot greater. So as in real estate, speed is everything, backing that with the knowledge of knowing what you're doing, the success rate just shoots right up. So things have changes. All these different corporate levels. And now again, companies aren't the same as they used to be. So developers used to be family developers, right? And then they turned into REITs and now they're owned by the public and share and exchange on the stock market. So there's a lot of people answering to a lot of other people. Eventually, you have to pay out those dividends, but even the brokerages themselves became so complex because, they, the Bronfman family would own one part of it, but then. Another two or three different pension funds might over another part of it. And now all of a sudden you've got all these layers and it became really tricky because it became political within these environments, right? So then you've got new brokerages opening up because they didn't want all that bureaucracy. And my, myself just decided, I know what I do well, and that's representation. And I know I do this between this geographic area and that goal post over there, that, that area, that's what I'm going to focus on. And there's enough business for me to earn a living. And it's the same way that we even look out for investments and properties, right? Here's a geographic area that I really know well. I've got a power team of people that I can rely on and I can bang this out all day long. And because I know that area so well, and I might even know that asset class so well, I know that my chances for success are much higher as opposed to, there's a lot of people out there that like to invest in the US, right? From Canada. And that's great. If you have a team of people that you can rely on, you can truly trust. But I've also heard stories where people might be investing in Saskatchewan or Manitoba. And the property manager out there has been taking advantage of them. Why? Because you're absent. You're not there. You don't know what you don't know until you find out that you're behind on your mortgage payments. And this guy here was supposed to collect the rent, but he didn't. In fact, they embezzled you. So I've always been one that just keeps a keen eye and my background, my playground and the area of my sandbox, if you will, would be Southern Ontario from the GTA all the way around the Lake down to Niagara region. So that's pretty much where I invest. Most of my clients have a presence in that region. So I know it. I try to study as much as I can what the product is, what the, what the opportunities are, the changes and legislation, either on a municipal level or provincial level. How would that impact my clients and then bring that information back to them and stay in touch with them in that way.

Stephen: 20:23

Okay, excellent.

Mel: 20:24

Yeah.

Stephen: 20:26

I wanted to ask you a little bit more about The impacts that some of these, the recessions and the COVID has had on, I guess we could talk specifically about office space, but just commercial real estate in general. I think a couple of years ago, it was, at its worst, maybe when, At the start of COVID, a lot of companies basically just sent everyone home, anybody looking to expand or renovate or, do these co working spaces and all these sort of open concept facilities and offices, all of that was just shelved because of, working from home and things like that. So I'd love it if you could just talk a little bit about maybe how. I guess owners and users of commercial space and maybe specifically office space are, dealing with this new trend of working from home and, I start, I'm seeing some businesses and even government starting to bring their people back in the office, but I have a feeling this sort of hybrid working situation is here to stay for a while and, At what point is it going to have I guess a longer term impact on the commercial real estate space. It's obviously had an impact very specifically through COVID, but I'd love it to get your thoughts on that and just what are owners and, tenants looking for in, in their commercial space and what are you seeing in the market right now?

Mel: 21:48

Yeah. I'd love to speak on that. Because it's a great topic and, it's a big question mark out there and I've talked to a lot of different people, whether it's companies or whether it's other brokers. But what I can say is that it'll eventually come back. Okay, the pendulum always swings. So back in the early 80s if you recall, there were, Toronto was still growing at a pretty fast clip, but you had different levels of government under different brands. So you had NDP and the Liberals And whenever you have the municipal level and the provincial level, two different type of brands, it's hard to get things done when two political parties don't want to work together. So if you remember the Ray days of NDP, and so what ended up happening in Toronto, you had a lot of companies that had migrated out of Toronto because of the tax base. Now, for the longest time, the residents of Toronto on a residential property tax basis, they We're benefiting from a lower tax base, right? And most of that pressure was put on the commercial side as the city was growing. But a lot of those bigger companies left to places like North York. This is before amalgamation before the city was the great Toronto that we are in right now, but North York was a hub. Markham was a hub. Mississauga was the mayor, Mel Lastman, back in the day, created a whole city on that subway line, just poaching those big companies from downtown Toronto to move to the suburbs. Now, where we are today is similar. So you had this migration. Coming out back in the eighties. But then just before this great health crisis that we had, you had a lot of these tech companies, these bigger companies now that have a lot of influence, we're moving back downtown because of the new supply of buildings that were able to attract great new employees, those of which were coming out of the universities, right? So you want to be closer to where those employees are coming out of. And the great city had a new batch of office buildings down south of the southern part of Toronto and a lot of the amenities and, couple that with some of the initiatives on, ESG, these buildings were well prepared. From a marketing point of view, it's great to have a presence in these buildings. You'll attract more employees. So you had this pendulum swing back to Toronto. Now it's COVID. Everybody is scared to death to ride in an elevator, closed spaces. And so now the pendulum shifts back out, right? I don't want to be in a congested city. There's just too many people. I need six feet of separation. And if I'm working in that environment, it might be a danger. I remember going to a company I had a meeting with, and this is just at the initial stages, and we had set up the meeting before the whole COVID lockdown happened, but we were able to meet. And as I was entering into the foyer of the lobby, I wasn't even allowed to get upstairs to where they were, so my guy met me. He was already in the lobby. And what he was doing was he was actually spacing out all his employees. They would come in and five or 10 minute intervals, and we'd be handing them a laptop, headphones, and a microphone. And I said, what's going on? Is there a big giveaway today? He goes, Nope, everybody's working from home and we're going to give them what they need because it's going to be a while before they come back. We figure, right? So here is this migration outwards. And now everybody is investing in fortified network security because they realize everything is going to be done through zoom for the next little while and team meetings. And they were preparing for all that. So a lot of investment was made to protect their employees. And to make sure that they can keep functioning as a company all throughout this lockdown period, which was expected to be originally about two weeks, but that's touched on. So you had everybody migrating out and as a result, you had employees that were thinking if I don't need to be in the city and this is going to be here for a while, then I might as well move what COVID did, what this health crisis did was move everything forward about five years. If you remember during the lockdowns. Companies were thinking, okay, how are we going to stay lean? We're going to get packages to the senior people. We're going to shed some of the the labor costs. And a lot of these people had early retirement, maybe went to the East coast or West coast down South and employees themselves went out looking for moving out of condos and apartments and buying homes because the interest rates were so cheap. So now you've got this sprawl and you had it all happening around the lake as far as Grimsby, right? So in case they needed to come to work, there's still a good hours drive, but they can still make it to work and eventually you had this hybrid. Work from home and hybrid policy where you can come in twice, three times a week, and that's where we were for the longest time. But it's hard to get people back to work to come to the office when they've made that investment. They bought themselves a home, they created a home office, put a lot of money and effort into making that office work. And now they're told they got to go back to work this time though. Everybody has migrated out. So traffic is just crazy getting back into town. And one of the big reluctances is, anything past 45 minute drive, you're going to get that pushback. I spent an hour and a half to get to work now, plus an hour or so getting home. That's three hours of my life every day that I'm missing out when I could be doing more work. And so there is this compromise between employers and employees. But what will end up happening is, and it starts with the government, and you're seeing that happen now, on the federal level, they're trying to get everybody to come back. And you just saw the announcement, here we are in September, the announcement of the postal workers, trying to get them back. What will eventually be the catalyst as things go on and these campaigns to get people to come back to work, you'll get this fear of missing out. Now, if you're the one person that is holding out, meanwhile all your colleagues are at work, You're going to start feeling like you're missing out on opportunity. And, the best thing you can do is, especially as a young employee is to be there and just be a sponge and prove to people and demonstrate to people that I can do my job really well, I'm accessible. I'm right here. You got something, tap me on the shoulder. You don't have to worry about getting an answer back from. Someone else at five o'clock, I'll give you my answer. Give me the opportunity to tap me on the shoulder. And as that happens, you'll see more and more people want to come back to work because of that fear of missing out on opportunities. And maybe just elevation within the, status and title within the workplace. But I think that's what it's going to take. It'll be waves like right now, we've got companies that are enticing their workforce to come in with cookies and baked goods, or, we're all going to get together for a drink afterwards, so we want everybody to come to work and what you have right now is really Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday is when everybody comes and you can see the parking lots are getting full. Once again, Maybe not to the point where, you know, where we were at prior to the health crisis, but Now we're probably around 60%, 70 percent in some cases a little better. I'm in the suburbs, so I see those parking lots filling up. I still know that there is a long way to go for downtown core. And this is the reason also why you've got this oversupply of condos that are there, right? If people aren't working in those towers, then there's no need to be that close to your job when you can just, get somewhere where it's more affordable. Remember, every trip that you make downtown It's going to cost you not only in gas, but maybe parking, but also food, right? You're going to have to sustain yourself while you're there. And then eventually people want to go for a drink or a coffee afterwards. You're going to have that money in your pocket as well. Whereas when you're working from home, you've got everything you need right there. And then you do your meetings and some still claim that they're, they haven't lost their productivity. But what they are lost is a bit of their culture, that corporate culture, because no one is around, right? So it starts with the C suite executives, get them in the office first, and then eventually the other levels of management and employees will come in, but it's got to start from the top. And so you get this pendulum back and forth and people will go back downtown. People will come back to the office. It's just going to take a little time.

Stephen: 30:09

Yeah, for sure. And it's an interesting sort of, um, thing to see play out because you're right there, especially here in Toronto, there was that push to get people out of the downtown and then back to the downtown. And now they're out again. And I think what's happened in, as we've gone along here. Is the city has grown so much and the traffic and the congestion has gotten so bad that people are just, they're not going to put up with it anymore. Taking hours and hours out of your day to go and commute into an office where you could just be, almost as productive at home it makes a lot of sense. I will agree with you though. I think for younger people, if there's an opportunity for those early on in their career. To just go to the office, get some mentorship, be able to have quick access to those more senior people in the organization. I think that's gold. And I really encourage younger people to do that because yes, you can get on a zoom call with. Somebody, if you're working from home, but it's just not the same going for a coffee, going for lunch with somebody, passing by somebody in the hallway and just having a quick two minute chat, chat about whatever problem you're facing. Those are those are opportunities you don't get when you're working from home.

Mel: 31:22

You know what, even amongst ourselves, like doing what we do, a lot of that is based on no liking and trust, right? We talked about this in the past and for a young employee to, at least get to know that I'm here within your organization, and then you might like me, but to get to that level of trust only comes across when you're when you're there, right? You got to build that rapport. You got to nurture those relationships. And that's hard to do remotely. It's hard to do when you're on a format like this, right? So this is why we try to get together as often as we can. And I would say, that's a huge benefit for those people that are trying to set themselves apart. From others that they would try to be hand to face once again, hi, my name is, and this is how I can help you. And let me know if there's any opportunity where we can work together, or maybe there's a headache you've got, and I can fix it. I'm here for you, and as a young employee, I think that would go a long way. I know that if I was an employer, and some kid came up to me and say, I'm here to help you with your problem. Great. Let's get to work, no time to waste. The big thing I will say about what we just went through and we talked about how it shifted demand up for a lot of things, whether it's retirement or wanting to own your own home, but it also changed the way we use real estate, right? Like everything has changed. So when everybody started shopping online because they couldn't go out that had a big impact and it had an impact on retail, but more so on them. On industrial, right? Like you had a lot of products that were being created and they had to be stored somewhere. And then they were shipped out, which means you needed a logistics third party, or maybe yourself to go back and forth and work that out. And then there were products that had to be returned. They had to be stored somewhere before they went back to the manufacturer as well. So the industrial sector really took off. Yeah. Just because of something that happened on the retail side and from the office side, like you had doctors that might have been in the office towers and you've had other tenants that might have been in the office towers and said, look, never again, I don't want to be locked out of my floor or locked out of my office building. I am actually going to take advantage of the vacancy that's sitting in a retail shopping mall and I'm going to put my medical clinic there. Plenty of parking. Their parking ratio is even better than what I've got on the office tower. I might even have free parking. So you saw a lot of these medical uses, whether it's blood clinics or or even just walk in clinics being housed in new retail. So your strip plazas, even your power centers, you'll find some medical uses in there now where you didn't find them before, but that was to fill the void of a lot of the retail, older retail concepts that just didn't work under this new frame, right? So you had a lot of things shifting and how we use real estate is just. Changed. And a lot of those things that we knew that were happening in the retail sector just moved up. We know that retail had to change. And now you'll see that retail is a lot more experiential, right? People want experiences. That's why they'll get up, leave their house and go shopping. Whereas before it was just basically, I got to go get a hammer. Let me get the hammer and come back home or let me go out and buy something. But. The way we use even retail shopping is it had to evolve because people, if they just want to order something, they can do it online. They can get it cheaper and faster. So industrial benefit from it. We thought retail was going to have the fallout, but in fact, it was office that was hurt the most. So now office is changing and how we can incorporate. Other uses into offices. One of the things that I'm working on now is, Is schools and in Montessori schools and daycares and can we incorporate those uses if the zoning allows into the base of the office towers and just adding more amenities to the office towers because again, if you're going to attract people to come in, there's got to be a lot more experiences. So now that, that sort of concept has been around even before the health crisis where you work, play, learn and you shop all under one roof. But you're starting to see much more of the experiential kind of meld into traditional office and traditional residential. Like you take a look at the well downtown and you've got a whole community there and there's a lot of different types of experiences depending on which time of the day you're at. You can be working from home or you can be working downstairs or you could be shopping and dining there too. So a lot of things have changed because of this health crisis. Some things just moved up trends that were already there. And some of it has just been disruption. The way I look at it at this, there's opportunities all the time. It could be chaotic. But if you know what to look for, there could be an opportunity.

Stephen: 36:09

Yeah, no, that makes sense. And actually, that's a good segue into something else. I wanted to ask you about. So obviously you're working with investors as well representing them, helping them to acquire and invest in industrial, in commercial real estate. So it'd be great if you could just talk a little bit about maybe what some of the advantages are investing in commercial real estate versus let's say residential. I talked to, residential real estate investors all the time. And, sometimes it takes a while for them to get their head around the concept of a triple net lease, for example, to understand how commercial leases are set up and why that's maybe an advantage to investing in commercial real estate versus. residential real estate. So it'd be great if you could just talk a little bit about that and maybe what some of the differences and what some of the benefits are and even some of the risk of investing in commercial versus residential

Mel: 37:00

Sure. In investing in real estate, we know what the benefits, that's been played out on many podcasts before. But what differentiates what. What's in the commercial side of things versus the residential things side of things is that you've got a lot more control as an investor, as a property owner. And I'm not just talking about rent controls for residential or, the land landlord tenant board that, doesn't give a fair shake to even landlords. And I won't say that they're, there's not that I'm advocating for bad landlords, good landlords. are always in need here. But something that is more fair and equitable given the risk that people are taking on, right? You're providing housing, which is a good thing. That shouldn't be deterred. You're not a big bad landlord. But I see the opportunity on the commercial side because it does take away a lot of that risk. And you mentioned the triple net leases. Basically puts all the costs on the tenant and takes away a lot of that risk on your side. Now, if you were in charge of paying the water consumption, the electricity consumption, property taxes, and the rest, and all of that has come up over the last few years, really accelerated exponentially. Big leaps of costs that would come from your bottom line. And as far as an investment comes you're not getting much return if in fact you're cash flowing positively at all. So that's going to deter you from doing more of that. Whereas on the commercial side, you can offload some of that to the tenants if not most of that, depending on whether it's just a single net lease or a double net lease or a triple net lease that you're talking about. So I see that as a hedge against the risk. So that's just first and foremost. But I also like the fact that I don't have to deal with those calls at night. Hey something's wrong with the toilet. Can you come over and fix it? Or I'm not too sure how this dishwasher works. I need you to come and send a repair man. And it always seems to happen on a long weekend or a weekend. Whereas on the commercial side, because you're dealing with companies and businesses, they're typically nine to five and they're typically Monday through Friday. And you don't get those calls. I'm not going to say that you never get those calls, but you don't get those calls. And usually you're in an investment that's large enough where you will have a property manager there, and it pays for having a property manager. So you're not dealing with that as an investor too. So those are some of the benefits as well of being in commercial. Now, with regards to which commercial asset that comes down to where your expertise, where you feel comfortable. You'll get into the storage. Self storage, but normally people just progress from, residential, maybe to office, maybe not so much these days, but office or retail and then industrial, and then from there you get into the sort of subcategories of things. But yeah, as far as commercial goes, it's a lot easier. As an investor to project your, even your pro form is a lot easier because there's less unknowns. Because a lot of those costs are being pushed out to the tenant and the tenant has a lot more control over their property as well. So there's a lot less needed communication between the landlord and the tenant. If there is an HVAC unit that's out in the lease, it would say that the tenant is responsible for that. They are able to do that. So long as you're made aware of it, and you provide the consent as to who's going to be doing the work. The control is still there without having you to be there personally to oversee everything and have that come under your expense. I think there's a lot of opportunity there on the commercial side that you don't get on the residential side. Did I answer your question?

Stephen: 40:42

Yeah, no that's good. It makes sense. And I think those are some of the key points for sure. Um,

Mel: 40:47

Maybe we could talk about your investment philosophy, but I can tell you so I am in this region, the Niagara region, greater Toronto area region. We look for investments that are multi tentative. So that we hedge away our risk. If 1 tenant leaves. You still got 4 or 5, or maybe 10 tenants there. I'm still providing you with cash flow. We typically look at places where we can add value. Thank you. And bring up some of the least value on the book value of the asset after we bought it like doing residential, you want to do your aesthetics. You want to make sure that there's least costly and just beautify the building and have that streak. The look from the street look really good and that will appeal to more tenants and you'll have your vacancy come down, your occupancy levels go up and your cash flow then goes up and it's usually a five year hold. But we do that all the way from the greater Toronto area into the Niagara region, all the way down to the border. And it's the way I look at it is Southern Ontario is the economic engine of things. Canada, right? It's the most affluent part of Canada. So as far as the volatility of the ups and downs, you don't get that much in Ontario, it it's a quarter of Canada's GDP. And up until recently, a lot of the people that would migrate or immigrate to Canada would find themselves in Ontario. And if not, if they've landed somewhere else within a year, A big portion of them would come to Ontario and after 5 years, I think the stat was close to 50%. Maybe that's changed now with Alberta booming in the middle part of Canada booming, but for the longest time, it's been consistent, it's 40%. Of the employment is in Ontario. So I like those numbers for stability and growth, right? And the other thing is, as you would know, is that we've got this scarcity of land given the green belt. So given that scarcity, property values will go up in time. So that's our investment philosophy. And I know it's aligned with yours and to some degree but love to, to, ask you what do you find so attractive about where you invest?

Stephen: 42:55

well, a lot of the same things that you just said, Mel. And I think, for me The industrial real estate market has just so many more advantages compared to residential real estate in terms of just that very thing that you mentioned that control and that ability to, have leverage on the investments that you're making set up longer term leases, have Pass through expenses through your triple net lease be able to force appreciation on your properties by increasing the net operating income, things like that. Yeah, for me it's a combination of just simplicity. The control, the leverage, and then also to your point about the population growth, yeah, 40 to 50 percent of everyone who's coming into Canada eventually is going to end up here in and around the southern Ontario. So we've got a really nice kind of trend happening and. All of those people are going to need housing, but they're also going to need places to shop places to go to work and all of those things involve commercial real estate to some degree. Yeah, for me, it's it's a pretty, pretty simple thesis. It's a pretty straightforward thing that that I look at and. What we talk about all the time is the cost of doing business in the GTA is getting really prohibitive for a lot of people. So what that's doing is benefiting a lot of those secondary markets in Ontario as well, and they're growing as well. Yeah, so we found a lot of success just looking in these other markets within Ontario. So it's it's a pretty interesting dynamic.

Mel: 44:22

It's not going to stop, and we're actually at a very fortunate time. I won't say that the worst is over, but what I will say is that the metrics are getting better. So you've got a lot of money that's still sitting in the sidelines, on the sidelines, looking to be deployed in real estate, right? There's always an allocation for real estate. But what I like, what I'm seeing now is as the interest rates are coming down and we're expected, To come down further as we progress towards the end of the year and then into the new year here, we are in September 2024. If those interest rates come down. You're going to see a lot of that money coming off the sidelines, right? So I think we're in a good spot when you take a look at bond yields. Okay, you're starting to see things. Uninvert. So when they were, we had an inverted yield curve, that is to say that, the five year yield was much better than the 10 year yield. That was an indication that the risk was all in the front end and people weren't worried about 10 years from now. They were worried about the moment at hand. Now you're starting to see that uninvert, which is great. It tells us that we're at a place now where the risk is further out. The problem is that the yields haven't uninverted between one and three years. So there is still a lot of caution in the marketplace about there's risk, geopolitical risk elections, risk things that are going on out there, even just the way we bring in things. So there's been a trend since COVID to near shore on shore stuff. So there's been a disruption moving away from globalization to more of nationalization and trying to bring things back and. Because of that, the inflation goes up because you're trying to bring things back home, which is much costlier base. But like I said, past the three years into the five years is starting to un invert, which is a great sign. And if you're at a place right now where you're thinking about investing in commercial real estate, now's the time to prepare because. There still is that gap between what sellers want for their property, what bids are, what buyers are willing to pay. But as there is more activity, as more people come off the sidelines, as interest rates get lower, you're going to see that's banned, that spread get tighter. And as interest rates drop, you're going to see more people in the market driving up the price of property. And those, that cap rate is going to compress even further. It's going to be a good ride if we keep going in this direction. So now might be a good time to prepare for that. I don't know how you feel about that, but I think we're right there. I don't want to say the worst is over because anything can happen. Another black swan event, a geopolitical situation with all the wars that are going on around the world, but I think that's a good time to prepare and get ready for those opportunities because it's a great time to strike if you can.

Stephen: 47:16

No, for sure. I think a lot of us are cautiously optimistic about what's going on. We're four years plus since the start of COVID. We've been through a lot of tough times in the commercial side for all the various reasons we just talked about. But I think, What I'm seeing is populations continuing to grow interest rates are starting to come down. There's been what, 2 or 3 rate cuts now from the Bank of Canada and the language from from the Bank of Canada is that they're going to continue to cut into next year. That provides a lot of confidence to investors when they're looking at their cost of financing and things like that. Yeah, I'm I'm looking forward to the next year because you're right. It's these times where there are opportunities when most investors maybe are still a little bit too reluctant to get back into there. They want to see everything, booming before they maybe take the plunge, but I think for real savvy investors, there's going to be a, this window of opportunity over the next year and a half.

Mel: 48:11

Yeah, I believe it. I believe it.

Stephen: 48:13

Yeah. I'm On that topic it would be great to just talk about, maybe going forward and where some of those opportunities are in the different asset classes of commercial real estate. So obviously, you prompted a bit of a discussion before Mel, when you were saying when you were talking about office and, the changes there and you're talking about industrial, but just, it'd be great to just get your thoughts going forward. 1 of the things that I just hear from people all the time is oh, is office dead? Is it even worth considering as an asset class? And obviously, industrial has been hot beds and sheds, multifamily residential, that sort of thing. But I'm also hearing investors going back into retail, looking at strip malls, for example, as an investment asset class. And so it'd be great to just get your thoughts on maybe the various asset classes and maybe where some of the opportunities are for for people out there.

Mel: 49:03

Yeah, sure. Let me speak on that. So if you're a beginner and you're looking for opportunities out there, as you said, Steven, the population growth will continue, maybe not at the same pace. But we're still, we need more people, right? I know a lot of people are pushing back. We don't need as many people, but we need skilled trades people. We need people because it's still a young country here. We are pushing 40 million or so. But we still need a lot more people, which means that we're going to need a lot more housing. And as there's going to be a shortfall, right? There's going to be a shortfall of housing. And yet there's a lot of government incentives. And what I would say is that there is an opportunity that sits for those investors that are just getting into the game. If you can find a property that has, a bigger portion of land, let's say on that lot, and you might actually find something that is not commercial, let's say a fourplex, but you can turn it into a commercial property by adding an extra unit, whether it's a garden suite or a laneway house. There is an opportunity because now you can tap into government subsidies. You can get the incentives that are there on a provincial level as well. But also you can take advantage of CMHC financing. So now there's a bit of an arbitrage between your traditional financing rates and having some help through CMHC. Now all of a sudden the math starts mapping out, right? So you're penciling out and these are opportunities. So I would say there is an opportunity for smaller investors that are looking to get to see if they can take a property and then fit that. The criteria that it would take to get some of that CMHC financing, all the while gaining on some of the government subsidies, if they're going to give you credits, or they're going to give you money to finish the work, complete the project. On the commercial side, I would say that there is opportunities. I pointed to an example. If you were to take an office building, and you can convert it into residential, There's an opportunity in that too. Not all older office buildings will fit the mold for residential, but if you can get a two story older obsolete office building and turn it into a school or a Montessori school or a daycare where again the government is pushing for more, they are subsidizing that and that sector right now is growing. That could be a great opportunity for office use, which is not in favor right now, but then having the foresight to see where the trends are going and the support from the government side. And if you can get some of that money to help you offset the costs of converting something to like an office, traditional office, the school, there is an opportunity right there. On the retail side, you talked about it yourself. It used to be sheds and beds. And now I start hearing retail might be right up there with multifamily as well as the second preferred asset class of investment. Now, what has happened is because of what we experienced with the great health prices there, a lot of people shied away from retail. They thought it would be volatile, risky, but also no one was building more retail. Even now, as the economy softens, is there's a, there's this discretionary money is is going away as more people tap into their credit cards and a lot of that stuff is in debt, but there is some scarcity in retail, so what you have now is a vacancy rate that rivals what you've got going on in multifamily. So you're under 3%, maybe 2%. I've heard for shopping centers or strip plazas or you're in the ones, the high ones. That's great. So if you're telling me like 99 percent of all space is spoken for, then I like those odds owning that's consistent, right? And you're going to get cash flow consistent. So as much as you might think of the disruption that's going on in retail there's just not a lot of supply. Canada's never really had a lot of supply of retail on a regional shopping center point of view, because we only have three or four major cities that can support it. A number of regional shopping centers, but as new communities are being built, think about those corners that are sitting close to these new residential communities as a, an opportunity to own retail on the industrial side. I'd say that we are probably, I'm going to say approaching a saturation point for the moment because of all the supply that has come on, but for the longest time, we've benefited from a very low vacancy rate. And even now people are saying, Oh, you know what? The industrial market's getting soft, but really we're still under 5 percent vacancy. So if you were in a bank, they'd ask you to put a 5 percent vacancy in your pro forma anyway. So from a broker point of view, I like the fact that I've got choice for my clients. So we're not in a dire situation with industrial at all. And as I said, as the economy strengthens and the interest rates go down, you're going to see businesses reinvesting and expanding and hiring and industrial come back. So I don't think it's going to get any worse than what we've got now. It can only get better. It'll take some time for that to play out given the lags that are going on in the economy. But industrial, I think, is still healthy, and this could be a great opportunity to buy industrial property. Now, my philosophy has always been try to find the tenant first, find the need first, and then see whether or not we can house them in a building that we can buy for them, and then have them benefit from the facility that's customized to their needs, and we benefit from the cash flow that comes from having a great tenant. And the other thing that we didn't talk about on the commercial side of things is we get guarantees. We get indemnifiers. Can't really ask for that in a residential tenant in your duplex, right? Can I get a guarantee from you that you'll never screw me over? But we can ask for that and with the corporate covenant, right? We can take a look at their financial strength and the whole bit, similar to what we do with a credit score for a residential tenant. So I think there's opportunity there on the industrial side too. Other than that, land values are still crazy. The thing with land is that you're going to have to carry the cost of land. For a while until you find a good use for it. That is compelling enough to give you the returns, but land banking has been in fashion for the last decade or so. But if you can, you'll get a good price on land, especially service land. There is going to be enough urban sprawl that's going out there as people move out. So will the companies, they will want to be closer to where that employee base is going to be. So when we look at places like Windsor or London, or, anywhere these new battery plants are going up, there's going to be a lot of opportunity out there. So they're going to build the housing for it, but there will be a need for some of that spillover effect. Sure. You don't get the battery plant. But you got, 500 different suppliers that are going to be feeding into that plant that need a place for them to house all their goods and materials, not, not even to mention all the people that are going to be building all that infrastructure. Those contractors are going to need a place to put their stuff too. So even on the smaller level, you might want to see if you can score a good industrial building and then carve it up into smaller units. charge a little more on the rents, but you've got a big base of people that could use smaller space. And that's what's going on in the office market too, just to break away a little bit where I find the biggest vacancy is in the biggest blocks of space, right? Not a lot of companies want big blocks of space, but on the lower, let's say five, 10, 000 square feet and below, the demand is there. And what you will find if you dig, you'll find that the vacancy rate for smaller space. Is not like the vacancy rate for larger space, right? So everybody's condensing, doing a lot more with less. And as a result, it's tough to find smaller office space configurations. So you'll find that you'll be paying a premium. So there is an opportunity in that too. Smaller buildings, smaller size units, a lot more demand. And as a result, you can charge more. So it's not always dire on the office side. It all depends on how you break it down and look at the numbers. If you really dig deep, there are opportunities within each asset class, and now's a good time. So I think I've covered retail, industrial, office, and even residential to some extent. We know that the population is going to grow, so multifamily will always have a vacancy sitting under 3%, which is really healthy as an investor, right? So a lot of choice, a lot of choice, depending on how you interpret the stats and where you see things are going. But I can tell you that we will be into a new positive trend by the time we get to 2025. Everybody was talking about survive till 2025. Now we're talking about thriving in 2025, but now's the time to prepare for that for sure.

Stephen: 57:49

Sure. Yeah, no that's a great breakdown. And I agree with you. There's going to be opportunities coming down the pipe. It's just how you manage it, how you take advantage of it and how much risk you want to take on. And I think that's a big question as well. Okay. So Mel, as we're wrapping up here I wanted to ask you a little bit more about your plans for the future what do you got coming down the pipe for Paramount? Where do you see maybe some opportunities for your clients and businesses, and just talk a little bit more about where the business is headed and where your brokerage is headed over the next little while.

Mel: 58:20

Sure. Sure. Coming out of COVID, like I said, a lot of my clients who were really ticked off at their landlords are like, they're not giving me any love. They're not showing me any love. I want to go out and buy a building. Okay, great. Interest rates are low. Let's go out there and buy a building so you have more control over your environment, your working environment. Let's do that. And that happened a lot during COVID. My leasing side of the business kind of slowed down and my, Purchasing and investment side picked up and I got to thinking there's a lot more people especially the entrepreneurial people that own a company that might be making widgets or whatever it is, but they need to put that money into something. So what we started doing was syndicating property. Now I had been doing this for a while with other partners, but never thought to do it on behalf of my clients as well. And just asking them whether or not they want to be a part of something like this. And now that resonated really well. And as a result, we were looking for properties to syndicate. And typically, I would have a tenant tell me where they need to go. I need to have a presence over here. Great. I will ask some of my other tenants that have actually owned buildings, whether or not they want to invest in a building. Already knowing that we had somebody in our pocket. With good covenant that could provide the cash flow. So we started doing that. And that's where I see ourselves moving into more of the syndication, maybe into a fund at some point. So we're just looking on the sidelines right now as to where the right places are, where the sprawl is going. And then when the numbers are perfect. Then that's when we pound. So the biggest problem right now has been that gap between what sellers still want for their property and the reality of the situation. The sellers look back, right? They look in the past for comparables. Oh, that building sold this much. That's old. Yeah, but that might be 2 year old data. And as investors, we're looking at the future. Where are the interest rates going? Where are the yields going to be? Is this a good opportunity? So there's going to be a mismatch in perspective, right? 1 looking back and 1 looking forward. But as that gets tighter, there are going to be opportunities. And now the banks are coming off a situation where, their loan to values were pretty low, given the risk and less appetite. Now they want to get back in the game as well. So you're starting to see more favorable terms and as things align, that's when you want to pounce. But trying to identify what you want is important. And as I said, I might be anchored to a geography and I'm anchored to yield, not necessarily asset class. There's lots of movement there and lots of opportunities. But I see that's where we're going for Paramount is going to be over time, just dealing with people's money and turning that into a fund. So syndication for now, but then eventually a fund or a fund of funds and taking some of that capital that's sitting on the sidelines right now and rolling it into some of our project and giving people decent returns and trying to mitigate all that risk. So we've been doing that for a little while. Hopefully I'll go all in. But there are still clients that need those assignments fulfilled, whether it's a leasing assignment or purchasing assignment. And we're happy to continue doing that. But that's where I see Paramount going. I see a lot of people, moving in that direction. These days, a lot of gurus and mentors are professing, this is what you want to do. But there's something to it. I think we're at a time right now where if you prepare, you're going to be benefiting from what happens in the next 12 months or so. So I see us moving in that direction.

Stephen: 1:01:42

Awesome. Okay. That's great. And then lastly, I just wanted to ask you if you wanted to share any particular links or websites or where can people find out more about what you're up to and obviously you're catering to both investors and, uh, business tenants who are looking for space. Where can people find out more about what you do?

Mel: 1:02:00

Yeah first place to go is our website. So that'd be paramountrealestate. ca. So www. paramountrealestate. ca. If anybody wants to get ahold of me, they can just email me mel at paramountrealestate. ca. As I've been trying to explore social media a little more. So I'm putting out a few videos. I'd like to put out a webinar series talking about the things that we talked about, right? If you're interested in investing on your own, that's cool. Let me show you what what we do and maybe you can take some of the things that we've learned along the way and implement it for yourself and enjoy the benefits of investing in commercial real estate. Not a lot of people are doing that. There's fewer of us doing it in commercial than there are on residential. And then if you don't want to do it on your own, definitely partner up with us in our passive investing program. Paramount's got a passive investing program and where we are syndicating. Property, and then eventually rolling those properties into a fund and spitting out good returns. So if that interests you, give me a call or at least email me, but definitely visit our website, all the information is there.

Stephen: 1:03:06

Perfect. Yeah. And we'll put all those links into the show notes so people can have access to that as well. All thanks a lot, Mel. I appreciate your insights. It's been a great conversation and yeah, thank you very much.

Mel: 1:03:17

Thanks, Stephen. Thanks for the opportunity. Great to see you, man.

Stephen: 1:03:19

Great to see you too. So hope you got some value out of this podcast episode. I invite you to and subscribe to the podcast, leave a review, leave a comment let us know what you think and for any other information about us, what we're doing. And the types of investments we're into. Please visit focuscapital. ca, focuscapital. ca. And on there, you can find a ton of information, additional podcasts, and a lot of free resources. That's it for this podcast episode. Bye for now.

1:03:52

you next time.