Pensive Paddy

#7 Steven Gannon: Overcoming Beliefs of Unworthiness for Personal Growth

• John Gillman • Episode 7

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What potential exists on the other side of fear?

Will pychedeliscs give you persective?

Join this episode with with Steven who is a psychotherapist who has his own practice ‘The Other Side’.

We dive deep into the topics of men's self-improvement, mental health, finding purpose, and overcoming adversity. Join us as we explore the transformative journey to self-love, awareness, and personal growth.

Episode Highlights:

  • Psychedelics and Mental Health: Understand the dual nature of psychedelics like psilocybin, MDMA, and LSD. Discover their potential benefits and risks in treating anxiety, PTSD, and illness-related anxiety, and learn why medical advice is crucial.
  • Self-Love and Overcoming Adversity: Explore the importance of self-love and self-awareness in personal growth. Learn how to cultivate these qualities to overcome adversity and build resilience.
  • Social Media and Mental Health: Uncover the impact of social media on isolation and self-worth. Find out how to set boundaries and use social media mindfully to enhance your mental well-being.
  • The Transformative Nature of Solitude: Discover how periods of solitude can lead to self-reflection, personal growth, and a deeper appreciation for existence.
  • Manifestation and the Law of Attraction: Learn how positive affirmations and the law of attraction can help you manifest the life you desire.
  • Meditation and Mindfulness: Gain insights into the benefits of meditation, including achieving inner calm, self-acceptance, and dissociation from negative thoughts.
  • Creativity and Boredom: Understand how embracing boredom can foster creativity and self-discovery.
  • Music, Art, and the Soul: Explore the deep connection between artistic expression and the soul's healing process.
  • Building a Supportive Community: Recognize the importance of surrounding yourself with supportive and growth-oriented individuals for personal development.
  • Spirituality and Self-Acceptance: Delve into the role of spirituality in personal growth, empathy, and societal well-being.


Steven’s Links

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/findtheotherside/

FindTheOtherSide: https://calendly.com/findtheotherside/discovery-call?month=2024-06

John’s Links:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pensivepaddy/

Being the person that you would have needed to be there for you to rely upon when you were younger. There was definitely like a low key frustration, like a little voice in my head. So there's every likelihood that we're all just like an atom of God experiencing itself as a singular being and much awareness is enough. Because I know that the more aware you are, the more aware of the good and the bad. Sooner or later, you'll be so far away from your true self that you won't recognize yourself. Stephen, you're a certified psychotherapist. You're also building your own personal brand online. I've been following you for a while and I think you provide really measured and balanced advice, which I really respect. Um So first question off the bat, Stephen. Psychedelics, do you think they give perspective or do they damage mental health?Um They can do both depending on the person and the circumstances. I think that if you have a specific diagnosis, I think it would be wise to maybe seek medical advice. And if you're already taking something for, say, depression, bipolar disorder, something like that, it would be wise to consult someone who's an expert in that field, your psychiatrist or your GP, to maybe talk to them aboutwanting to consume psychedelics, I think a lot of people would probably tell you not to do it. But I also do think that specifically with psychotherapy, there's a lot of positive research in terms of the use of three psychedelic compounds. So psilocybin, MDMA and LSD for various treatments of certain issues. I know that they've done, they've done studies where they've used psilocybin for people who are really anxious andThey've done like double-blind crossover studies. So they'd have people say on like a four to six week basis given a placebo and then people in another group given psilocybin. And then at the crossover, they've seen that the results were incredibly positive for the people who had taken the psilocybin and there was no difference in the people who were on a placebo. Then when it was switched over, the first group had a big reduction in their, it's it's called the HADS total. It's like it's a measure forfor anxiety, but they saw significant reductions in people's experience of anxiety through the use of of psilocybin. They've also, they've used LSD for people with illness related anxiety or people who are close to death with really good results. And then they've also used MDMA successfully in the treatment of people with post-traumatic stress disorder who previously haven't responded to traditional forms of either medication or or therapy. SoI think there's a lot to be said for, you know, the mind opening aspects of certain psychedelics in specific situations. But I I wouldn't say that they are for everybody because I think that what a psychedelic will probably show you is something you need to work on. And that's not always a positive thing. So it's it's not like it's not going to be fun for everyone, but there will be learning that will be taken from it. But if you have, you know, a predisposition to an existing disorder or if you're not,a mentally very resilient person, I would, I would say maybe steer clear of them either indefinitely or until you feel like you're in a place where you can learn from them, because I think there's knowledge to be taken from it, but it has to be incredibly specific in terms of the circumstances. Specific in terms of the circumstances. Okay. And you mentioned psilocybin, like can treat, you said there was some anxiety index and it was very. the drug suicide was very beneficial for like tackling certain anxieties. Do you think that like it also like expands your awareness and your intelligence?Like that's what a lot of like the psychedelic community say. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that, but they say that like, you know, it almost expands consciousness and it like if you ever heard of the stoned ape theory that chimpanzees are psychedelics. Yeah, Yeah I've heard of that and like, you know, II know there are certain people who really swear by the use of psilocybin particularly. I I don't fully understand the mechanics behind it, but what I do know about any kind of psychedelic drug or any drug in general, whether it's made in a lab or whether it's like a natural thing, all all drugs will do will increase or decrease the production of certain chemicals or activity in certain parts of the brain. So they're actually just showing you something that is maybesay, not switched on at the time of not taking it. So MDMA, for example, is a gateway to experiencing a heightened sense of awareness or a heightened sense of, say, love and connection. But it's it's something that you could actually experience without it. It's just that you don't have access to it without that chemical. And I think that, you know, I have a background in music. I certainly wasn't an angel when I was when I was growing up. I've had good and bad experiences with with certain things like I think there is a time and a place for for learning from them. And I think maybe a better way to look at it in terms of psychedelics specifically, like the more natural drugs that are out there, they are tools for expanding consciousness to kind of reflect on what you what you said and asking that question. But there's also that thing of like how much awareness is enough, because I know that the more aware you are, the more aware of the good and the bad and they say, you know, ignorance is bliss. So I think it'sIt's something you really need to ask yourself, like, am I willing to open this door and know that I might never be able to close it again?You said, the more aware you are, the more you are aware of the good and the bad and a few friends who I'd consider very intuitive and you know, kind of alternative. I kind of related to what you said when you said ignorance is bliss, because sometimes these people are more prone to impression and they feel like all the waves of emotions. So I think it's it's kind of... What would you call it?Like maybe the paradox of self-awareness?It's the more you know, the more you know you don't know and the more scope you have for, say, self reflection, self-awareness, connection with people, the more capacity you have for understanding the good and the bad elements of life. So I'm definitely a proponent of expanding awareness, but I also know that it's maybe like. you're sacrificing a certain innocence or the the bliss of ignorance through kind of expanding your consciousness or or your awareness. But I think that's kind of the prime reason that we exist is to to learn and grow and transcend our our current situation in order to become something better. And I think that's where even to go back to what the other side is, it's all about potential and like harnessing and utilizing the potential of the individual to self actualize. So the purpose of life is what did you say?The purpose of life is to essentially overcome adversity and to evolve. Essentially. Yeah. And I agree through your own particular circumstances, you know, because I think, you know, they talk about madnesses are like insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and looking for different results. It's like the answers are already there inside us and that's why like therapy is such a powerful tool. But we limit ourselves through the stories that we've been told about ourselves from like birth to present day. And it's almost like that becomes the little prison that we exist in, but then you realize, oh, I can actually knock down this wall. And maybe maybe you don't transcend everything that you've ever been challenged on, but maybe you make the prison cell two feet wider. But if you continuously make it bigger and bigger, then you have the whole world. And I think we literally limit ourselves through the things that we believe about ourselves that we've either internalized from society or justconjured up about ourselves. And that's part of that challenge as well is to push back against those things. I like the the description of like the prison cell and you can increase it by two meters. I can relate the stories you tell yourself. That's something that resonated with me from your content, like inner dialogue in your head about who you are and what you can do and what you can't do. And for me, that really changed after university, like progressed to smaller than university and I had fun, but I was still kind of like,low-key frustrated and still kind of like, you know, kind of stuck in like groups where like people drank a lot. And you know I was always like there was definitely like a low-key frustration, like a little voice in my head. And then I remember after university I like left and moved abroad. And I think that was when I began to realize these stories I was telling myself that I had to do this. I had to be kind of a people pleaser, kind of Irish culture, kind of isms. If it's okay to ask, what was it when you moved abroad yougave yourself more freedom to express yourself or was it just a coincidence that you moved away and then you happened to become more comfortable with the person that you are? I think I was kind of frustrated in Ireland. I found it very hard to like not be a people pleaser. The Irish culture that you have to go for pints on a Friday and maybe on a Wednesday. I found it very hard to break away from that. Looking back on it, I feel like I blamed other people internally because I didn't take accountability and justmove away and maybe pursue my own interests. So like I saw like moving abroad was kind of the easy way for me to be somewhere on my own. I could pursue my own interests without judgment, which retrospectively I always could have done. But that's again, it's like you were in the prison cell, not knowing that you had the key or the bulldozer to kind of knock a wall down. And listen, like I'm no different. Like there's still, even to this day, like there's still things that I'm kind of working on kind ofimprove. And then I look at it now, it's like maybe it's not a big software update, but it's just like little bugs being fixed and going, oh, you know maybe I can approach this certain particular situation in a slightly different way. And I think growth, to go back to that kind of thing about what the what the meaning of life is or what the what the pursuits of life should be, I think that's where I see myself as like I want to be for myself and for my peers and for the people that I work with. like some tool to help them overcome those former beliefs and to just be comfortable as themselves, because I think one of the common things that I see with working with people is like this less than mentality. And it's not just Irish people, it's people from all over the world. And I was talking to someone the other day about like, you know, the way that we say that phrase putting, putting things on a pedestal or putting people on a pedestal. So say, From my perspective, if I walk out of my house and I put everybody on a pedestal, I'm kind of I'm here and they're there. But then the next person is doing the same thing. So they're there and everyone else is there. And by realizing that we're putting every individual is putting everyone else on a pedestal, it kind of levels the playing field. And it's a similar thing with anxiety. When you realize that most people have a certain degree of anxiousness, it can almost become a thing that you can transcend because you're like, Jesus, everyone's worried, so I have nothing to worry about because they're worried about what everyone thinks of them. I'm worried about what everyone thinks of me. et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So if we all just named it, it will be much easier because we'd be like, Jesus, like, I never would have thought that you would, you know, worry about how you're perceived. Do you think like labeling emotions and patterns is very important? Like being able to label something and like define it and describe it as you just did there. I thinkwhatever is unnamed is going to still come out and rear its head in some way, whether it's an unconscious action or thought or decision. So I think the more light you can shed on those things that aren't really say firmly in the light at the moment, the more control you'll have over your existence in terms of how you show up and how you interact, because obviously there's a very finite like amount of things that we can actually control, but you can control how you interpret situations and how you respond to them andThat's actually a hell of a lot when you think about it. What are like the main things you think that you can control personally?Do you, like if there was like five, that's probably a hard question. I don't want to put a number on it, but. Control, hmmOr even two. Yeah, two definitely. How I interpret situation, and this is like not 100% of the time, but more often than not, I can control how I interpret situations and how I respond to them. Generally, I can control the frequency with which I exercise because I think that's incredibly important. I can control my breath. I know it's like it's an unconscious thing, but I know that I can actively check in and use my diaphragm to draw breath into like, you know, the deeper part of my belly and that really helps to regulate me. Fifth one. I don't know. I think that's it's elusive. I think if I can keep those four nailed down, I'm pretty grateful for that. Like, Yeah, I really like that. Another one I like to say to myself is that I can always control my manners. So I can always be polite. If you ever get frustrated or if someone ever gets in your nerves, if you can say you can always be polite, then you always feel that like you justified yourself in a situation, even though I'm not always polite, but I try to be. Of course, I would I would agree with that, but I know that I'd have to add a caveat and like, not when I'm on a bicycle in Dublin City because... Yeah, Yeah well, I'm a culture, so I'm not too not too familiar with that, but I've heard stories. I've heard stories. Yeah. Especially like they just they do not care about cyclists. Yeah, but depends who you ask. I've heard a few drivers say that cyclists depends which side of the spectrum you're on. That's it, yeah. Yeah What do you think about self-love?I would have always said, like even though I've always been into like meditation and I've always been very interested in psychology, self-love to me, I always had the perspective that it's kind of like toxic. Masquerading your insecurities or your laziness with kind of saying, oh, just love yourself and accept yourself regardless andThat was my previous perspective on self-love. And now I realise that I kind of have, I think I have an issue with self-love and it's been like over critical and like hateful of yourself. So I think I understand more about self-love now having been in a very supportive and loving marriage, but we've been in a relationship for like two and a half, like nearly three years. And we've been married a year and. I know that, like you, you said self-love, but the question that came to mind there was, were you actually thinking about selfishness?Because I think self-love is like encouraging yourself to do better. And I think what I've what I've learned from modeling from my wife is that she will be really supportive and nurturing and kind to me. But she will also tell me when I'm doing something that I probably shouldn't be doing or I can improve upon or isn't really serving me. And I think that's real self-love is like it's not just going, ohh sure, I'm great, everything's brilliant. Like I'll just kind of stay how I am. It's giving yourself the encouragement that you need, but also sometimes kind of going. Listen, man, we need to sort this out. We can't just rest on our laurels here. And I think that's what true love is, is being able to be honest with yourself and I think. Yeah. If I think about the question, like, what's my thought on self-love or what's my opinion on it?I think it's incredibly important. And I also think it sets the tone for every other relationship that you have with everyone in the world, whether it's the bus driver you interact with when you get on and off the bus or the barista in the coffee shop or the person that you're going to spend the rest of your life with. If you can't cultivate the love internally, then how can you ever expect to share that with someone externally? You can't pour from an empty cup. Exactly. And then that's that's one thing that comes up as well a lot with people in therapy. They tend to be the ones who are looking after the people around them who are taking on a lot of the emotional load for those people, like friends, family, colleagues. And they get to the point where they're so empty that it's like a challenge for them to take a step back from the people that they're helping because that's become their identity. It's like, ohh I'm always the one who helps. I'm always this. What happens when you have no water for yourself?Like, you knowA lot of people talk men in their twenties today and they say that there is like various different crisis. Less guys are getting married and like less guys, people are actually like having less sex than previous generations. But do you think that like there's an isolation issue with like young people today and do you think people are more isolated than previous generations?Yeah, but I think obviously, you know, in the aftermath of COVID, everybody was was very isolated, but I think there's,Even if you look at children now, there's much more reliance on screens and technology than there was, say, when you were growing up, when I was growing up, certainly. And I think what's happening in some way is the association of the screen with like connection and friendship, because like you know you get to interact with your favorite YouTubers. There's games that you play, then you move on to social media. And there's the kind of, I think, the dopamine hit that you get from, say, posting the photo and getting the like. What Iheard from a trainer that I had on on my my therapy training was that the same neural pathway that gets appeased when you get a like on social media is and this is verbatim what he told us. So that same neural pathway that is activated when you get a like on social media is the exact same one that is activated when you use drugs. And I think people what I see now is like a lot of anxiety, like gambling addiction, definitely substance abuse issues. And people, not just men, like men and women really seeking diagnosis at a very young age for certain, say, like either neurodiversity or for mental disorders, things like that, seeking prescription medication. But I think generally people are a little bit more separate, say, from their peer group than I would have been when I was growing up. Like, I grew up in the era where people would knock at your house, like physically go to your house, knock at the door and be like, you know,And Stephen came out to play, like, oh, he's having his dinner, but he'll be out in half an hour kind of thing. Now it's like, you know, Snapchat and things like that. So people are more in communication with each other, but less connected, I feel. You mentioned the the chemical response when you get a like on social media is the same as, what's to say what's the same as?Apparently it's the same neural pathway that is activated when you use drugs specifically. Definitely think that's true. And I went off Instagram for a yearIn final year of university, it was actually a great reset, but I went back on it because I felt I was kind of missing out. You know, like I'd meet people and they'd be like, oh, you have your Insta and whatever. But I think it was really nice to take like a year off it. And I'm usually kind of conscious of how much time I spend on Instagram, but since I've started the podcast, I have like a separate Instagram page for the podcast and. I find it setting so much time on it, and you do like get addicted to like who's seen your stories, and like when you get a like and stuff, like it does actually feel kind of euphoric for like a split second. Yeah, Yeah and I'd agree with that. I know that if I if i post a reel and for some reason it just gets more responses or more, say, like interactions than a regular one, there is a part of my brain that's definitely like, oh, look at this, you know, and I have to remind myself that,like I'm the same as you. I have a separate business one from my personal one, and I don't use my personal one like or even half as much anymore. But I do know that I probably spend more time than I would like to on social media, even on the business page when it's you know things I could call productive, but I could probably set a fairly rigid 30-minute per day window to do everything in, and I wouldn't really need to go on it again, so it might be something to explore in the future. But there's definitely that little payoff or that little buzz that you get from it. And, you know, I'm human and they employ a lot of very intelligent people to keep us using those apps and keep us interacting with them on a daily basis. Have you ever heard of the social media fad, Monk mode? Is it taking like, you know, a month or a couple, like a six month break from it and just not telling anybody?It's actually well, it's not actually related to like social media detoxing. It's kind of like a productivity fad that's popular at the moment and it's characterized by a lot of productivity gurus and business guys. And it's move yourself away from everyone for three months and get like super dialed in on what you want to build, like your business or anything. And yeah, get super dialed in on that and kind of sacrifice social relationships, et cetera, et cetera, for a period of time just to likejust to make significant progress. And my buddy and I actually tried it, first moved out to Spain here, um and we tried it for like months, a trial period, and we got very, very kind of, I say serious almost, on like tracking our like notations, stretching every morning, water intake, no alcohol, everything was planned down to a T, and we were being very stringent on it, and we'd only take Saturday off, and Saturday was no drinking, usually just hiking, and it was very regimented, and after three weeks, I was so sick of it and yeah I was just like seeing like social contact and almost I was awkward talking to people. I had to like resocialize after three weeks and like I literally was awkward. It took a week to kind of get social skills again. But yeah, what do you think about that? Do you have any like initial reflections on that? Like obviously putting too much pressure on ourselves. Yeah, like extreme was a word that kind of like flashed up in front of me there, you know, it is quite an extreme thing. I do think there could be a lot of benefit for for people, for certain people who maybe yeah find it really distracting in in terms of like being in the real world. But I also think that like, if you're able to just kind of navigate, say, being around a partner, being around friends and family, being around the temptations of the pub or whatever, and still maintain your productivity, that's probably more beneficial than pulling yourself out of the environment that you naturally inhabit. Because like what what happens when you go back like on day one, you're going to be really overwhelmed, I would imagine. And you might end up going like, oh, I've done three months of absolute graft. I'm going to go on the piss for a week now or something like that. So I think I think gradual progress is the best way to probably approach things and kind of looking at it and going, you know, what can I feasibly do today? And one thing that I find is like,I use Google Calendar a lot like because it just takes all that stuff out of my brain of having to remember. I get a little notification, but recently I've started putting tasks in it, so I give myself a deadline for a particular thing and now I know ohh I get to mark that off. And that gives me kind of maybe a lesser dopamine hit than, say, the social media interaction. But knowing that I've gotten something done actually does kind of appease that part of my brain and I'm like, oh, cool, I've achieved something. So I think it's about finding. methods and tools that you can use in the in the actual world that you live in, rather than kind of like ghosting your usual existence and kind of going, I'll do three months. I mean, maybe for some people they might need to do that, but I don't know, it's just, it wouldn't be feasible for me. But yeah, I think if you're into that, give it a try. If not, just try and be more kind of, I think more structured in your day-to-day and that will definitely help. Gradual approach, I would definitely agree, but on the flip side, did make certain progress, which worked. But a few people have asked me about it because we kind of told our buddies that we were doing it and they obviously all took the piss out of us. But then they were interested to find out about it. Yeah, I'd say it's actually it was useful, but definitely proceed with caution. And yeah, that was my takeaway. Yeah, but I think it's worthwhile to try those things just to kind of see see what it's like, see what you can take from it. I think that's the most important thing, like trial and error, because you know, everyone has an opinion on something and like, you just have to try something out and that's how you learn essentially. 100%. Yeah. Have you ever had periods of solitude in your life? Yeah, a lot when I was younger, I would have been quite sickly when I was in my, kind of like from like 10, 11 years of age, I would have had like issues with my stomach and stuff. and would have had quite a lot of time off just sick alone by myself in the house because, like, my parents were working and my brother was obviously at school. I think it's quite beautiful. Like, I'm I'm an absolute introvert. Um I really do like my own my own time and my own space. And I think that while I do enjoy being around people, I have kind of-- I have a finite amount of energy for big groups. Now, the people that I'm really close to and the people that I love, I'm like, all day I can do that. But I've noticed a funny pattern in, say, the roles that I felt like I work one to one with people as a therapist. So that that actually gives me energy because I love one to one conversation and things like this as well. But I find that the more people you add, the more limitation there is on like my bandwidth to be in thatsituation. Yeah, I'm the exact same. I remember in university, it was kind of like a party party group, thought it was cool, and essentially I was creating my tail for a while, for maybe the first three years. And I I remember being in groups of people, like large groups of people. I used to find it like so overwhelming. And I finally had the pain of like, not the pain, but like the anxiety and the unhappiness of like constantly being in these large groups, these like large group chats. That pain finally outgrew the pain of being a people-bleaser. I don't know if I'm introverted or not. I used to be very extroverted when I was younger, but I think I'm definitely a lot less extroverted than I was. Do you think you can learn something from, well, obviously you can learn something from solitude. When I had periods of solitude, it really kind of changed the trajectory of my life. So I went solo traveling last year to South America on my own, and I came back and all of a sudden I was like, Yeah, I want to do a podcast. Did you learn anything from solitude?a lot, but I'm trying to think what comes to mind. What are the most important things? I think I learned to appreciate the fact that I I just I exist and that might sound like a, you know, like a very general thing, but just like not expecting every day to wake up in the morning, you know, or like every night before I go to sleep, I kind of, I'm hopeful that I'll be given another day, but I try and wake up in the morning now. I'm sure my wife will tell you sometimes I wake up and I'm probably like, I have loads of shit to do today or whatever. But like, if I can generally kind of tap into that awareness of like, Jesus, I've been given another day. And I saw a stat recently that was like, I think it's about 150,000 people worldwide die every day. So like, no, that's a hell of a lot of people. Like that's the population of like, some cities in Ireland, you know, and. having that awareness to be like, okay, I'm one of the lucky people that got to wake up and have another day. And if you can start off like that with gratitude for existence and then gratitude for just a couple of simple things. Usually for me, it's like a cup of coffee in the morning. You know, we we got a puppy recently. So like, that's been amazing to just be like, you know, experiencing this little ball of love at the start of the day, just keeping things simple. And I think through spending time alone, I realized that like, We all have a struggle and a lot of us kind of like a similar thing to the prison. It's like we have those beliefs that keep us held in a certain position, but we also feel undeserving of, you know, some kind of improved situation or some respite from our problems because we feel unworthy or we feel like we deserve all the the shit that's been thrown at us or all the terrible things that have been thrust our way. Do you think that a lot of people feel undeserving of better life circumstances, or do you think that they don't think it's possible? Or is there a difference? Like, are they too negative about what can happen or is it low self-worth? I think it's fear and low self-worth, yeah. I don't think the two statements you made are mutually exclusive. I think they can coexist, but like, we're conditioned. It's like, if youIf you kidnap me and lock me in a house and keep me there for five years, then one day you come and you open the front door. I'm not going to walk out the door. I'm going to be so used to being in that particular situation that I'm like, no, no, this is OK. This is actually safe now. This is what I can tolerate. And it's the same thing about beliefs. If I think I'm worthless, or if I think, just to use some extreme descriptors here, if I think I'm a piece of shit, which that statement, it really It hits me right in the gut because I've heard people say it so many times and I at a former point in life, I felt like that. I felt like I was worthless. All the bad stuff in the world was my fault and was never like actively suicidal, but definitely had times where, like, I kind of just didn't want to exist. And I think that's maybe something that a lot of men, particularly Irish men, kind of have an experience with at some point to some degree, but like. It was just a really dark time and it was because I believed that I deserved nothing more. And then when you kind of start to realize you're like, you talked about energy at the start of this chat, and I firmly believe that like the frequency that you vibrate upon will be reflected back by God. I say God or the universe now, I've been saying God more lately 'cause I think I'm kind of overcoming the the Catholic guilt or the association with the church. I think you can have a connection to God without it being like Catholic God, but like,God's not going to solve the the issues for me, but God's going to give me an opportunity to solve them for myself. And I know that phrase, it's like it's said so often that it might not hold meaning for people, but fake it till you make it is actually a way of manifesting. It's like you talk yourself into that reality. And I know even today I sent a voice note to one of my colleagues about kind of we're both building our own like therapy brands like adjacently and like supporting each other. And we meet up once every couple of weeks to kind of just share this is what I tried, this is what worked. But I was kind of speaking to him in this voice note, speaking things into existence that I want to happen. And I was using it in the present tense where I was saying, I have X thing and I'm doing this rather than saying, ohh I want to get to this point. Because I think if I put out that belief from myself and really mean it, it's going to come to me becausethat's the energy that I'm kind of like going to be reflected back. Your vibration, you said, like, so what you vibrate, the vibrate, like the level of your vibration is kind of what you receive and what you attract. I've really experienced that so much this year, and graduations on F University has kind of been going up. But as I said, I was backpacking last year and that was a great kind of hiatus of independence on my own. I was in South America for four months and like,sort of reflective period. And yeah, and like, I was doing a lot of like hiking, like getting up early, like meditating, journaling, all these all these things. And like, yeah, yeah like really, I felt like in terms like vibration, like, I know a lot of people think sounds very woo, but doesn't matter regardless. Yeah, and I came back, my circumstances have been so different to what they would have been previously. And like, I do think manifestation, like, I don't know what manifestation is exactly is like rewiring your subconscious is it like,attracting people, do people like, are we energy who gets attracted to other energies? I don't know, but like even journaling, like I journal a lot and one guy I spoke to on the podcast was telling me, he's also into like manifestation and energy and he was like, write down your top 10 goals for the year, every day, every morning, and then also journal what your life will look like in six months time from now. And I've been doing the top 10 goals and I've already crossed off two of them. I've only been doing the bones of a month, but like there's one thing, there's one prompt, I want to be um magnetic and calm. And magnetic in the context that like people will be drawn towards me 'cause I'm calm. And sometimes I can be a bit high energy, you know, and like people say I talk a lot, so I was like, I kind of need to tackle that issue, butI feel it's so much calmer since I've started doing it and all I've been doing is just writing it down as a sentence. But But I think that is a form of manifestation and I think it's, you know, it's intention setting, it's putting structure or having a goal. I think that's super important. You obviously meditate, Stephen, or do you meditate regularly? Yeah, I try to do 20 minutes every day. Me too. think it's a nice time to do. I think 10 minutes is a bit too short and I think I don't know how you feel because like obviously we don't have a stopwatch. I tried generally do it with my eyes closed, but I feel like the last two to three minutes is where I start to kind of almost like dip into unconscious. And then like as soon as the gong goes off, I use the waking up app, but I just use the timer on it. And whenever it goes off, I almost I feel like I've come back from somewhere. That's the best way I can describe it. It's like, I've been somewhere and I've come back to my body, but I was not here for, for the guts of that experience. I've had like various different experiences meditating. If I was to try and describe it, it's like a feeling of like calm. The inner dialogue in my head goes for me, like nervous, erratic, um, insecure. It's being a voice of like calm and reassurance and acceptance. Have you ever done the Douglas Harding meditation on the Sam Harris app where he,Makes you love the object. Yeah, I think I've tried it before. Yeah, that's a photo. Yeah, it's pretty trippy. I remember I meditated for like a couple of years before doing Sam Harris's introductory course. And that would that would have been maybe like three, four years ago doing the course. It completely changed my understanding of of meditation and really brought this prominent, like, well, I have to use the word awareness to describe it, but like prominent awareness of awareness, 'cause Harris talks about that's the constant and that makes a lot of things make sense for me. So like seeing thoughts as like clouds passing through the blue sky and the blue sky is awareness andemotions that come up, particularly in cold showers. Like, I I feel like sometimes when I start the cold shower, I'm like, Jesus, I'm I'm really cold. And then that wise part of self that maybe you talked about in meditation will come and go, No, no, no, there's coldness in awareness. And I'm like, Oh, yeah, yeah that's okay. And you just notice it then instead of being like reactive to it. There is coldness in awareness. Are you dissolving your sense of self when you say that because you're not thinking anymorethat's, you're disassociating or you're separating yourself from your thoughts, not identifying with thought and you're viewing yourself just as open awareness. Am I making sense or have an ostrich?No, no, I think that's it. Yeah, it's kind of like removing the, removing the I from it. Yeah, it's not going like I am, it's going yeah, like something has has arisen in awareness and all I am is like one subjective viewpoint of awareness because like I have eyes that look outI have this you know sensory system in my body that allows me to like hear and taste and touch and smell things, et cetera. And then on top of that, there's a layer of like thoughts that will arise or like ideas or notions. But the constant thing, there's two constants, like breath and awareness, and I think they're intertwined, and I think that's why we probably feel so calm when we meditate, because I have this idea of like, you know a snow globe, when you shake it up, it's pretty, but it's hard to see what's behind it. I think meditation allows all those little bits of snow to just settle and then you can see the thing really clearly. It's funny, when I first started meditating and when I first started reading books on like consciousness and Eckhart told another guy I find quite interesting, but a lot of these terms can be very abstract and I'll even try to explain it to my father, like he's somewhat interested, but I think he could do a bit of meditation, but jokes aside, but he's interested, but I always just lose him. Like he doesn't think it's wacky, spiritual, woo-woo. Like he does see the benefits that I talk about. And like I'd say concepts like delusory self, even like don't associate with thoughts. And it's very hard to articulate to someone unless you do meditate, which is probably frustrating to someone who wants to hear about it from a logical perspective before they do meditate. Would you have any advice for someone in that position? But one of the common things that I hear is like,oh, I'm no good at that or like I couldn't meditate and you're like no, but that's the point is like all you're doing is sitting still and either focusing on an object or closing your eyes and focusing on the breath and then maybe it's 5 seconds go by and you know yourself like it's like oh Jesus I'm thinking and then you go oh no no no back to the breath and that's that's all meditation is. It's just the the repetition of that noticing thoughts arising awareness and we're getting hooked onto them and then go no, let's let that thought go. It's kind of like So I was like fishing, like awareness is like you want to think like your mind wants to be active. So you end up like you're you're at the breadth and then before, you know, unconsciously you're casting back the rod, throwing it out. And then the thought, which is a fish, hooks onto it and then you're like, Oh, Jesus, the reel is being pulled away. Like my awareness of self is being pulled into thinking. And then you let the fish go back to the breadth and it's just that forever. But I think like. That's the difficult thing about someone who hasn't meditated is like, as you said, trying to get them to understand the benefit of it when they haven't done it. You just kind of have to do it and go sit down, do for five minutes and see how you feel. And then if it's beneficial or if it's difficult, there's something to learn from that. But it's essentially just sitting still without any distraction. And I think that's the beauty of it. It's just a more focused version of it. But I've done things as well recently where I'll kind of just like,lie on the bed and stare at the ceiling for 15 minutes without any interruption and literally just like staring at the ceiling and I can feel myself just coming back into this real calm presence, like focused, but not like intensely so, but just like very aware of what's going on. And I think it's really lovely. I also think we're so conditioned now to just unconsciously pick up our phones and stuff that it's difficult to kind of to navigate those things. What I try and do is like,If I'm doing something like this or if I'm with a friend, it's just like put the phone face down and just leave it and don't interact with it until the conversation is complete, you know I think that's when you begin to be creative, when you like lean into boredom and like when you don't distract stuff like parties or kind of like scrolling on social media, obviously, I think that's when you enter a period of almost like reflection. Um I did a lot of when I wasI know I mentioned too that I was backpacking, but in Guatemala, I kind of lived like a monk. I was there for a month and I was just getting up really early, like hiking and stuff. And I actually met this girl there, this Dutch girl, and she was very similar to me. And she also wanted like a detox from alcohol yeah and so we used to just get up and go for walks. And like there were so many times where we were tempted to go to like social events and you know obviously we did go to likedatings, like day fairs and stuff. But like we were saying, we go to this party tonight. They're like, no, we'll leave it. And we really kind of discussed the topic of like kind of just leading into boredom and just being okay with each other, just like chatting away and saying, oh yeah, I might just go to bed tonight. Obviously, that that doesn't have to be the way always, but like just for a period of time, get into being bored and like don't give in to like the constant stimulation or the kind of following the modeling crowd kind of sort of thing. It's like going your own route and being okay with that. And I think there is definitely something important to allowing yourself to experience boredom because it's like we look, we're looking to soothe ourselves when we, you know, when people say they're bored, they're not actually bored, they're unstimulated or they're like, they want something to distract them. But if you sit and have a conversation or if you even just sit by yourself for even five minutes. you do get ideas about things. You're like, oh Jesus, I could like, you know, I could write a short story, I could do some drawing, whatever. And it's, I think we are inherently creative beings. I think that's, I think music and literature and art are three proofs of the fact that there's a soul because there are things beyond language that we need to try and encapsulate, particularly with like, you know, painting and sculpture and then like notation and music. There's so much beauty to it thatI don't think we have the lexicon and just like the the spoken language to encapsulate what that really means. And I think we need to express something that's very deep, that resonates like at the core of ourselves. And I think that is the soul. Yeah. And like, if you it's funny, you can connect with someone on music like if you like, if you meet someone for the first time and and you both like the same songs andYou know, you get that same feeling when you listen to a song, you know, I love this song from like the nineties or and like, as you said, it's your soul really, isn't it?Like it like captivates your inner child or something deep inside you that words can't really describe, essentially. I believe so. I think it's like, actually, I heard Jordan Peterson talk about something similar where I think he was talking about music and like, I really do think that music in particular speaks to maybe somelike former thing that we can't tap into anymore, but we know is there, but it's like a felt sense of something. Because I know there are some songs that if I put them on, even if I've heard them like a hundred times, like I'll still get emotional, whether that's happy, sad, or like completely heartbroken, depending on the artist that you listen to. But something truly magnificent about being able to like take a piece of art that's like, you know, two, three, four, five minutes long and evoke an emotion from a total stranger that you've never interacted with before. It does communicate something different, doesn't it?It's like an idea or like a memory or 100%. Do you think that going through adversity, is that like the evolution process that you go through a situation and then you get really low and upset over it and you realize essential truths and then you overcome it stronger. And that's just how we as a species grow. Yeah, well, like, you know, that saying pressure makes diamonds, I think if you experience adversity and it really tests you to like your limits, you're going to grow in like ratio to how much you were tested. But if you're just kind of handed things, I don't think you actually learn anything of value because then it just becomes an expectation. I know any of the times I've gone through really difficult, say like periods after I've gone through it, and that's actually why I calledYou know, the the practice, the other side is like on the other side of that challenge is like the new you or the kind of more resilient you because you've survived that thing. You didn't let it destroy you. I've only had like one, like one kind of issue where I felt like I would call adversity, well, maybe had a few issues, but like one thing in recent years that happened to me and felt like super low after it, to be honest. And it was such a learning curve though. Yeah, it was such a learning curve and like that was when I mentioned to you when I kind of changed the university a bit and like there was basically an incident. I got assaulted basically and and yeah like I felt like very low and very confused after for a while and I really learned so much about like people, like my friends, who will actually be around you like when maybe it's not the best idea to be friends with you. I realised so much and likedefinitely changed as a person after it. And looking back on it, it was definitely net positives. That's the one challenge though, isn't it?When you're going through the thing at the time, you don't realize how beneficial it's gonna be. Yeah, it's painful. Like it's it's a real thing that happens to us and you know, we're just blood and flesh and bone and we're very kind of prone to, you know, being hurt or being like, being maimed, being killed. But we have to kind of trust the process and know that like, if I can get through this challenge or thisperiod of adversity, I'm going to be so much more strong as an individual on the other side of that. What would you say to someone who feels stuck socially?Like they feel like they're in a social group and they can't really be themselves and they feel like they don't know what to do. They don't want to be weird and like go out and have no friends for a while or maybe in university or high school, secondary school. Is there any like prompt you would tell this person to get them to I would say trust your gut. And if that's something that you're still trying to develop in terms of like giving yourself permission or belief in that. Imagine that the friend group that you're you're currently associating with is like a pile of books in your hands. Like you, you get to a certain point where you can't carry anymore, like maybe it's 10, 12, whatever. But sometimes you need to put some of those books down in order to welcome new knowledge or new experiences or new people into your life. And I think, again, it's that trust to process thing of like knowing that just because you're friends with someone, whether it's a year, 10 years, 20 years, if they're not pushing you to grow and if they're not supporting you in your pursuit of growth, they're not your friends. If they just want you to stay stuck and to go down the pub and to have the same conversation year after year after year,they're actually taking your energy from you self-actualizing. If someone doesn't want you to grow, essentially, they're not your friend. I I agree. Um And you said, if they just want you to go down the pulp, and I think every Irish person can relate to that. Because like there was a huge drinking culture in Ireland. It's very ingrained into how we socialize. Do you Do you believe that isn't Irishism or intense social pressure to like drink in Ireland?And I'm not judging anyone who does drink. Obviously, it can be great crack and of course, but back to the point, do you think that, do you think it makes like Irish culture a bit clicky and people a bit less independent because we drink?Do you think there's a correlation there or what do you think?So I will say that I think in the last couple of years, maybe like five years or so,I think there are more people that are choosing to just not drink and, you know, maybe they're getting more into fitness or just like something that's like, say, hiking something outdoorsy. But I know the focal points, particularly when I was growing up, and I'm sure you just kind of mentioned as well, like when you're in college, you're kind of expected to when you're in college, it's kind of like it could be most nights go out drinking and stuff, but. say when you're like working age, when you're in your like mid to late twenties, there still is this expectation to like meet the lads on Friday, be out again on Saturday, be like dying on Sunday and then kind of like going to work, hanging and hating everything on Monday, Tuesday. And it's this repetitive cycle of just kind of, I don't live living for the weekend. And I remember talking about this a while ago. I was like, if you spend the five days of your week living for the two days of your weekend. you should probably invest time in changing the five days rather than continue to live for the weekend, because that will be much more beneficial to you than to just drink it away or like drug it away or gamble it away. It's like people are to talk about the social pressure aspect. They are pressurized into kind of going to the pub and kind of particularly I feel for men is like, you know, like we we use like. We use words for homosexuality when we're we're younger, we we say things are gay without thinking of the implication for for people of the use of those words. But then we've also, by proxy, of using those hurtful words that shouldn't be used in that way, we have internalized this idea of like, there are things that are masculine and acceptable, and there are things that are like feminine or not acceptable. And I don't think that's fair on on men, I don't think that's fair on like the LGBT community, I don't think that's fair on women, becausethen we become these kind of two-dimensional figures of what we think a man should be. And then we can contribute to society in terms of like our own emotional regulation, love and support of our partner, connecting with our friends who might not be heterosexual, but might need to you know open up or need support from from straight men in the community as well. So I think there are far-reaching consequences of just adhering to that pseudo-masculine idea of just, Oh, we have to drink with the lads and we watch football, kind of thing. A quote I like from your Instagram page, one of many actually is, All the answers are inside you. So start asking the right questions. But my question is, how do you know what the correct questions are? Trial and error. A lot of trial and error. And I thinkgetting to that point where you really do trust yourself to answer because like a lot of us are so negative in terms of our self talk like we've been discussing or we have such low confidence in ourselves that we don't think we can self actualize. We think we need to, you know, go and do a Tony Robbins retreat or like do 75 hard or move around the world and like not speak to someone for two years or whatever it is. But As you mentioned that quote, there's like there was actually a quote from a presentation that I gave on psychedelics and psychotherapy when I was in college, and it's from Ram Dass. And I'd love to share that because I might give insight into this. But Ram Dass says you and I are the force for transformation in the world. We are the consciousness that will define the nature of the reality we are moving into. And I think it relates to manifestation and intention setting is like, you know, everything that youprobably should be doing and you know everything that you probably should be doing less of or your limitations in terms of your belief and your drive to success are going to stop you from doing more of the good things and less of the bad things until you believe that you deserve it. Most people know what they're doing without saying wrong, but that's not beneficial to them, let's say. And also most people know the things that would be more beneficial to them, but they don't feel they deserve to change things. And that's where answering that question is like,maybe the first question to ask is like, do I deserve this?And if the answer is no, it's like, well, why do I feel that way?And then you keep asking questions until you find the little seed of self-doubt that was sown. And maybe that was by you know someone in their parental unit. Maybe that was someone who taught them in school. Maybe that was a kid that bullied them. Maybe it was an older brother or sister. But until they find the root cause of the thing that's keeping them stuck, they won't find the answer. Do you think that society today that we're missing like spiritual guidance and like some unity in spirituality, and that's essentially what in Ireland, Christianity or Catholicism, whatever, used to be?And do you think that we're missing that and that will be replaced?Or what do you think?Do you think religion is kind of dogmatic?No, I think like, obviously, in Ireland, the Catholic Church hashad, you know, priests and bishops and other people that have done horrific things to, you know, to like children, infants, like a lot of people have been hurt through people that work for the Catholic Church. And I think that a lot of people now associate that negativity with God itself or religion itself. And I think that's it's actually probably not a beneficial thing for us. I think there's a lot that we can learn fromhaving a relationship or having some spiritual side to ourselves. Relationship with God is what I was gonna say, but it's I think it's up to the individual to kind of cultivate their own connection. And I think that, you know, Nietzsche said that like God was dead in one of his books. And then he basically said that like man was going to be doomed to toil in the caves in the wake of God's death for like a thousand years or something like that. And I think we're in that period wherekind of like, you know, that scene in Indiana Jones where he he he's in the cave and like he picks up whatever the little ornament is and replaces it with like a bag of sand. That's the same way we're trying to replace it with things. So from what I see, I think celebrity has become God's like worship and celebrity. I think CrossFit and yoga and all of these things like I think any any point where there's a congregation of people, I think has now become an unconsciously religious experience. And I think that's why people get so into like certain fitness approaches are really into running or you know really into veganism or whatever the thing is, because I think they want guidance or they want some kind of source of connection with people. But I think we're maybe at the tail end of it, but it's only recently that I've been comfortable with using the word God. I was saying the universe for a long time, but I think we're at the tail end of it where people aren't feeling shame in their connection to God, but they're definitely feelingdisgusted and disheartened by the Catholic Church, and I don't think people want to connect with the Catholic Church, but I do think they want to connect with God. People do CrossFit and yoga, you said like, it's almost like they want to worship something and they really want to believe that it's like, there's like something inside them they want to express as a community. Yeah, Yeah I agree. It's actually very true. When you said that, I was like, man, that's very accurate. Do you think that that will change in the future?You said you're only comfortable using the term God now. Like to most people, that's still a bit wacky woo. And of course, but I do think a lot less like it's like I think in the past five years, I think spirituality, religion is kind of coming back into the narrative a bit more and it's a bit less taboo. You know, things kind of exist, especially nowadays, like without nuance, and it's kind of like we run to one side of the ship and then we hit that and then just as it's about to topple, we run to the other side. So I think that there's more space to say the word God or for people to have a spiritual connection now. But I also think that like, I don't know, I think people are kind of fed up with being judged and being told what they should and shouldn't be. And ironically, that's kind of what the Catholic Church did. They told us all we were going to be sinful, you couldn't be naked, you couldn't have sex. Like all of these things that were just ludicrous. And maybe now people are developing just like a genuine connection withyou know, the oneness, God, the universe, whatever they want to call it. But once they have some awareness that they're not just this little island unto themselves and things are connected, or at least I believe things are connected, I think that gives people a lot of hope and a lot of peace. How do you believe that things are connected?Because I don't believe in coincidence. I think everything that occurs happens at the right time in the right circumstances and kind of like playing a video game, like you might get to a certain level where you're looking for, say, a switch to open a trap door. The opportunity on the other side of the door won't go away, but it's up to you to find the switch. So you'll be you'll be led down a certain path, but you have to figure out how to kind of get to the next stage of it. The journey that we're all on. I think we're all part one thing and Alan Watts talks about likethe game of hide and seek, where he says that, like, each of us could just be God, you know, God as being Stephen, God as being John, God as being the trees, God as being the birds. And if you're an infinite being with unlimited resource and potential, by proxy of you being infinite, then you would have had to technically try every single thing because he would exist for all eternity. So there's every likelihood that we're all just like an atom of God experiencing itself as a singular being. I don't know, I like to play around with that thought. Yeah, an atom of God. I don't know if it's in the Art of Zen or if it's in Psychotherapy East and West, but it's in one of Alan Watts books and he talks about it as well in some of his talks. But I think it's just a really interesting thing to be like, listen, life is just a game. You're wearing this avatar of John, I'm wearing this avatar of Stephen, we don't know what will happen, but wouldn't it be nice to think that we return back to a singular energy source and then maybewe get recycled and we get sent back in some other way, in some other timeline. How little we do know, though, I often reflect on that, like go back 300 years and like, even like the growth of technology and like industry and the railroad and all these like new technologies and like in that field, like like we do know so little, so and there's often, I think there's a lot of things that we can't express. with vocabulary. How the Egyptians got those giant stones that made the pyramids out into the desert, like we've no idea how they moved them. Yeah, exactly. It's baffling, like. Umm It is baffling. I think if you view like everyone, you said like oneness and everyone is God and one energy source, it like, it also like, just like to bring it back to like something a lot more kind of, understandable to maybe people who don't like spirituality. It also makes you a lot more empathetic towards other people. And like, even if it is, it makes you empathetic towards people, takes away like the ego and like, oh, who's this guy? And you stop like comparing yourself and it's just, it definitely creates more harmony in your life. Of course. And maybe it's an uncomfortable thought experiment for people to have, but it's like,If you can take good from it and it's not harming anybody, then I think anyone who resonates with that, play around with it, see how it feels for you. It might not be something you think about in six months. It might be something that you write down and abide by it every single day. It's something that comes to mind for me fairly frequently. And like you were saying, it does make me, I suppose, heighten my sense of empathy towards people because I try and see flex of me and them, or flex of them and me, and then I try and relate to themmore because I realized we're all just trying to make sense of like who we are and why we're here. It's a great way of looking at life, like everyone just trying to make sense rather than assuming that someone's sinister. It makes you kind of aware that we're all flawed. That makes you more understanding. That's part of being human as well, is like we're deeply and inherently flawed, but that's why, you know, the peace symbol, the yin yang is like,There's a little dot of the black and the white, there's a little dot of the white and the black. It's all kind of connected and it's all energy. So the universe will perfectly balance itself. And that's why I think good and evil exist because for every good thing, I think something bad happens somewhere else. And that's just an unfortunate thing, but hopefully more good than bad happens because I think we need to, especially in what's happening in the world right now, and not just in one place, but in multiple places, like justThere's war, there's drought, there's famine, there's instability. Like we need to live more with love and compassion than we do with fear and isolation. I have a few questions from a few fans. They're They're all my friends, but no, so yeah. So hmm Fergal from Fergal is down in Ratmore in Kerry. And here's a quote from Jordan Peterson. He said, if you're failing to get anywhere in life, you aren't aiming low enough, whereby you need to tackle smaller, more manageable things in life to get some momentum. I firmly agree with that. I think. I think in terms of the long term, it's great to have big goals, but if you can't, you know, brush your teeth and shower yourself on a given day, then there's no point in thinking like, oh, I'm going to cure cancer or whatever the thing is, think whatever will take effort for you, but will be a maintainable task. That should be the thing to look on. And I know maybe this was from his interview on Diary of a CEO, but I remember hearing Jordan Peterson talking about one of his clients and basically you know his whole thing is like clean your room. The concept of cleaning the room for this client was an impossible task. So they agreed that he would clean a drawer in his room and I think it took the guy two or three weeks, but then he did it. And then when he did the drawer, he did more, but it was like it was a long winded process, but you have to work at the person's pace. Like I think self-actualization is determined by the criteria of what makes that person them. So there's no point in me going ohh run a marathon tomorrow when the person like has poor hip mobility and has no cardio and hasn't run more than 200 meters in say 15 years. It has to be within their wheelhouse. It should be just enough of an effort that that it needs. energy and focus, but doable enough that it will give them some kind of form of, I don't know, appeasement from it or achievement. And then once they maintain that over like, you know, a week or two week period, then give them the next kind of step of that. But it has to be a measured approach based on like what they can do and what they need in their lives. So I really agree with that quote. I think it's it's very true. SoThis person wanted to remain anonymous. What advice would you give to someone who lives in a household, kind of a traditional family household where therapy is viewed as being taboo. And this person is maybe considering going to therapy?I I think so, yeah. Yeah I know it's it's challenging when you might have parents or siblings who are telling you a certain thing about a certain approach to life, but like,If you start eating all your meals according to what another person thinks is nutritious, and if you start consuming news that people want you to consume based off their preconceived ideas, and then you start dressing a certain way because those people are telling you those are the clothes that are acceptable or not. Sooner or later, you'll be so far away from your true self that you won't recognize yourself. I know it can be really scary, and I know it takes a lot of courage, particularlyFor men in that initial period where they're maybe reaching out or trying to find a therapist, I'm going to assume this is a man like, I don't know, it might it may be a woman as well, or I think that. Being the person that you would have needed to be there for you to rely upon when you were younger, I think that's one thing to keep in mind is like what would your wiser part of self say to you about this situation and. Are you willing to forego the support or approval of the people around you to know that you're doing the right thing for yourself?So that's what I would say to to that individual. Last question, Steven, if you met your 18 year old self and you had him for 30 seconds, what advice would you give him? 30 seconds. OK, start meditating every day. Most people are insecure and anxious. Um, believe in yourself more, worry less. If you get stressed out, check in with your breaths, keep lifting weights and don't take shit from people that make you feel less than. You're born ready. You were born ready for that question. Yeah, you nailed it. You nailed it. That's been the best one yet. I'll give you that. You're ready. Yeah. But thanks a million, Stephen. I really enjoyed that conversation. I learned a lot from you. And personally, I'm really excited to see how far you go, just in life. You too, I think. Cheers, man. I think what you're doing is great. Please do keep it up. And like I think. There's there's something very, very genuine to what you're doing and to your reasons for doing this. And yeah, I'm I'm looking forward to seeing where this takes you because I think you've got like like a very good heart and you seem just really driven. So yeah, man, more power to you. Just don't stop. You want to keep going. Yeah. Appreciate that a lot, Steven. I really do. Yeah, I'll stick with it. Don't worry. Cool, bro. Yeah. Cheers.