Connecting the Dots...with a chiropractor (Dr. Matthew Doyle)

This week, I'm reconnecting with someone I've known for a decade, Dr. Matt. We delve into his journey from a local boy to a chiropractor, his thoughts on health and the spine, and how his practice evolves from treating to teaching. Plus, discover his unique insights into maintaining balance with a demanding career and vibrant family life.

Transcript

Speaker 6: 0:00

Week 37 of connecting the dots with people I know or don't know. Usually I'm chatting, I'm chatting to people I don't know and finding more about them. This week I get to chat to somebody I've known for a long time. And, Caboolture Boy, haven't known him since, you know, that long, but certainly a decade. I see him quite regularly. but didn't really know much about him other than why I see him. That's all gonna make sense real soon. Come meet a, I think he referred to his early days profession as some type of setter. Let's go see what he's talking about.

Speaker 3: 0:42

This is Matt or Dr. Matt. Yeah. And why, let's start with that. Why is it Dr. Matt and not Dr. Doyle, or is it both? Well,

Speaker 5: 0:52

so like in Australia, like as a chiropractor, you know, you can call yourself Dr. Matthew Doyle, chiropractor. Yeah, so you've got to qualify as chiropractor because you're not a medical practitioner. The only things in actual legislation are you're a doctor if you're a medical practitioner or if you've got a PhD. I'm, I'm not a doctor. 80 percent through the PhD, so like working on that part of it. But it's, I think, in terms of how we talk in the practice, you know, that's, that's a, there's a connection as a doctor patient relationship and that changes over time because people come and see us with specific issues they want dealt with and so you are the authority figure to deal with, you know, musculoskeletal and other things to do with your spine. But over time we become more of that. Connection for them on a journey of health, you know, depending on where they're met, they might come to us when they're an elite athlete, they might come to us when they're being carried in the door. So, like, there's a really broad spectrum that we take them on that journey. And so, depending on where they are on that spectrum, sort of really leads into which part of that the communication comes from.

Speaker 3: 1:59

Awesome. So you're a chiropractor. Yep. How long you been doing practice? 19 years. Okay. Yeah. Now you do, I've seen, I mean, I'm a, I'm a patient of yours but I also follow you online. You do teaching as well.

Speaker 5: 2:15

Yeah. Like I love the, the, I love the specific impact that chiropractic had on my family, you know, my parents, us, my kids, and that drives why I do what we're doing. A little bit. What I can do in practice as one person has a greater limit in terms of its bigger influence. And then over the time in, in practice, like I've worked on publications and then looking after babies and pregnant women. So I love that area. And then being able to share that sort of both clinical experience and what the, the, the research says at this point in time about those areas and, you know, general chiropractic education Like I love being able to influence, you know, one to many in that sense, because that then helps, you know, educate and inspire people who want to be chiropractors or who are chiropractors to, you know, continue to grow their, their journey as well to help more people.

Speaker 3: 3:08

So where did you study? Is that something you can study for in Australia?

Speaker 5: 3:11

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So where I studied is interesting because I'm up to, the PhD is degree number five. So like when I started I went through Caboolture High, so, you know, being, being local, local in the area. You can study chiropractic in, in Australia, absolutely. There's, at the moment you can do it at CQU in Brisbane. It was Macquarie Mackay as well, but they're sort of, they're focused now on Brisbane as the main campus. Then Macquarie in Sydney you can do it. They're finishing up RMIT's program in Melbourne, which has been there for almost 50 years, and they're starting the Australian Chiropractic College has got a cohort starting there. You can study it now in Adelaide. It's been there for almost five years. They've just had their first cohort of graduates from the Australian Chiropractic College, which is like a private program, running it, accredited, the same way the universities are, but based in Adelaide. Murdoch University's over in Perth. You can, that's been running since the early 2000s. And then you can go to New Zealand as well. So that sort of gives you the practical options. When I looked at it, you could pretty much go to RMIT in Melbourne or Macquarie. Those are the two options. So I had done my science degree here at UQ, and so I did that in neurobiology. So I was really interested in the nervous system. So all the different Specifications, you know, you're looking at fish that can see 3, 000 metres under the sea, and you look at bats that can hear stuff like in a 0. 1 percent range, a 60, 000 hertz range, like a butterfly that they're going to catch, you know, rustling bush, you know, it's amazing stuff. So I love the idea of the nervous system and then, you know, chiropractic was very much focused on, you know, function and structure for the nervous system will add to the spine and then health. So that sort of led me then going down to RMIT. So I went through UQ for the science degree, RMIT for my chiropractic degree, which is a five year double degree. And in Australia, it's either a double degree or a bachelor's, master's, same sort of content really. You know, the universities can charge a lot more for a master's program, so some will run it that way. And they can do a bit more research in that sense as well. So I finished the RMIT program 19 years ago and then moved straight to the UK. So then I lived there for seven years. And while I was there, I was wanting to do more study into aspects of chiropractic. And I was really interested in family care and looking after babies and pregnant women. So then I went down the path of a master's in pediatric chiropractic. I looked at research when I was doing my science degree and I can clearly remember sitting outside the UQ, having just written 4, 000 words on how Like chemotaxis gets a nerve cell from your brain stem to the top of your nose, like 4, 000 words on that much space. And I'm like, if I want to go back into more research, I'll do it once I get a professional, you know, qualification. So I started doing that master's program to kind of get some of the research tools. But then built skills around family based care and when I finished that, I had the opportunity to start teaching at one of the programs in Europe Barcelona College of Chiropractic. So I was living in Glasgow and I'd leave minus two degrees in snow in Glasgow and then fly to the Mediterranean and teach in 12 degrees for like, yeah, Monday to Tuesday type of thing. And then fly back. So it was, that was a great end to it. Chiropractic education and that sort of educational thing. Then part of what happened was I met my now wife, Megan, who's an amazing chiropractor. And we decided to move back to, well out of the UK. We're kind of done with the rain at that point in time. I loved it for the skiing because you get to Europe, but it was just, we were done, visas were done. So we looked at going to Barcelona but just trying to work out how family would work and have kids and flying parents in, it just, it was Couldn't get our heads around that properly. So we moved back here to Mackay, which is when CQQ opened up their chiropractic program back in 2013. So we moved back to Mackay and then we're there for a year. They opened a campus in Brisbane. We had a lot more family down here. We were getting married. So we moved down to Brisbane and that's when, you know, we bumped each other because I talked to Kevin and Carmen Kramer and they had a practice and they had young kids and they're about to move to Canada. So we were able to sort of, you know, slide into the practice there and Here we are, 11 years later.

Speaker 3: 7:13

Yeah, wow. It's like you got the teaching and the travel out of the way early. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5: 7:19

Yeah, it certainly started. Even when I was doing the part of what CQU encouraged was the, in the academic. So when you're teaching, you should have a qualification above the level you're teaching. So like, for a chiropractic program, I had a master's. So that's the sort of thing you needed, but they also encourage you to do more in terms of educational academics. So I did a grad cert in tertiary education as well, which was another year's program on like how to teach at a university level. And that was really fascinating. And I like, I actually loved learning like more about pedagogy and andragogy and how people learn and different processes of doing that, you know, like, lived experience work and just different concepts you could link to help someone understand a topic to get there. The outcome for what you want for that particular subject. So that was an interesting thing to bounce into the educational side of things.

Speaker 3: 8:09

You mentioned you went to Caboolture High. So you're a Caboolture boy. Your dad's been around for a while. I'm

Speaker 5: 8:14

probably Bulldog's captain, my friend. Right, right. Tell us about your dad. Ah, well look he's Why

Speaker 3: 8:19

is that a name people might know?

Speaker 5: 8:22

Well, I mean, yeah, Tom Doyle's been here. He's been a vet in the area since 1976.

Speaker 3: 8:27

There you

Speaker 5: 8:27

go. Yeah, so he's still practicing. In a lot of ways he's a, he's a He's an inspirational person to think of what's possible. He's 81. He's still practicing. He's still riding horses. He's still fit and active. Like, you know, it's a part of that. You know, he got chiropractic care. That's part of what helped him on his journey. But a big part of it is about having the The mental drive to do what you love and like finding something that you love doing in terms of being a vet and riding horses and having a lifestyle and being able to, you know, create that process that allows that to happen. So that's where I was this morning doing three hours of yard work with him to look after the 12 acres. So I think that's a really important thing from a, you know, we've got a population that's aging, you know, the dealing with the health of the aging population is a really important thing and, you know, doing something you love, being active. Dealing with animals is another good thing. We know that like, literature is clear on having a dog particularly is a good thing from a longevity point of view. And being outside and doing things, weight bearing activity, that sort of stuff is really important for, you know, strength and muscle mass and functional capacity to get up and down off chairs and things. Yeah, that's a, that's one of the things that I love that he's done for a 50 plus year career as a vet and 30 plus years as an animal chiropractor. So, yeah,

Speaker 3: 9:45

it's cool. Why would somebody need or want to go to a chiropractor? What's, what's, and I say that being, I've used, isn't used, I've gone to, I've used your services or the services of a chiropractor for My parents started taking me when I was five. So it's one of those things I've never had to turn my mind to why go to a chiropractor. It's, I always have. So for somebody that's never been to a chiropractor, what's the motivation to go?

Speaker 5: 10:13

Well, I think humans on the planet, we're bipedal, we're upright against gravity, you know, we have this amazing bony structure that protects your nervous system. Your nervous system is what runs the show, you know, like that's what allows you to experience life, you know. Sight, touch, sound, hearing, you know, senses of smell. You've got other bits of senses of movement. You know, that's really important proprioception. And so much of that proprioception is driven by spinal joint and muscle movement. And you get a chunk from your arms and legs, but the biggest bit that helps you stay upright against gravity, which is really important, you've got two legs and an unstable base, is the function of your spine. Now, prior to probably the industrial revolution, we just had humans as a species were much more active, you know, like we didn't really exist as a, as a profession as bone setters in the, in like the 16th century that we're around. But the modern form of chiropractic that started in 1895 with D. D. Palmer was really focused on The difference of two people in the same room, working at the same bench, eating the same food and one was sick and one was well. You know, that was the question that drove what Dede Palmer looked at and he went into looking at the spine and then its relationship to the nervous system and function and health from that point in time. So, I think why would someone see a chiropractor? Well, as a human on the planet, we do stuff to our bodies that, you know, we damage things over time. You know, there's a limitation of matter and, and keeping your body functioning well in all aspects is a really important part. The spine is a critical part of that. So I think as a, as a society, Particularly when we are a more sedentary society in the Western world, you know, making sure you take care of that spine is a critically important thing from a health and functional capacity point of view. Now there's other professions that look after spines and look after people's health, osteos, physios musculoskeletal therapists do a three year degree and that sort of thing but what I guess makes chiropractic separate distinct is the Perspective that if your spine's not working well, if subluxation or a lack of normal motion in that joint, then it has the potential to affect the quality of the signal in between your brain and your body. And if that signaling system is clear, it's kind of like having a camera lens and it's a bit fuzzy. just your perception of everything going on, whether it's how you emote, because we know there's some stuff coming out around prefrontal cortex function and emotional regulation. Now this isn't randomized controlled trial level for its impact on people's health. We know from RCT level work now that people getting specifically adjusted for areas in the neck that aren't moving properly has a positive effect on the prefrontal cortex. So that's really, really important for an emotional regulation point of view. More importantly, we know that if, You've got stuck joints in your spine, your picture of how your body moves through spaces like that camera lens, it's fuzzy. And if it's fuzzy, it means if you're trying to step up over the carpet here, you're more likely to catch a toe and slip and jar something. And it might be at your vintage, you just jar something a little bit, and that might be something that three weeks later it's like, oh, that's not quite right. But if you're in this ageing population too, if you're in 80s, that little slip could be enough to fall over, break a hip, and then there's a cascading event the next year that's not good for people's health. So really it's about optimizing one of the key things, your spine, that supports the function of your nervous system, and your nervous system is what allows you to do your life in all aspects.

Speaker 3: 13:34

Yeah, wow. Now as the person that's doing this to somebody else, is it taxing on your body? Absolutely. Yeah, over time. Why I ask that is I've watched even in my time seeing you, you've used your fist as a tool. And now you have this device you put in your hand and you, and I said, Oh, you've moved on to using this device. And you were like, well, I've been doing it for this many years and this many times and this many adjustments. I've probably used my fist as a tool, you know, and you spat out this number and I'm Oh, that would be taxing on your

Speaker 5: 14:07

body. Yeah. Yeah. Particularly with manual adjusting. That's what I've done most of the last two decades of work. You know, it's a physical art. You know, they talk about the art, science and philosophy of chiropractic, the philosophy gives us the why we do it. You know, that Spine and Nervous System and Dealing with Your Life. The science gives us the understanding of biomechanics and the integration between the nervous system and different organ systems and the literature around the importance of normal motion things. But then the art is really, really important. You know, there's, there's an art to any physical thing. If you're playing in RL, if you're on the Australian cricket team, you know, like there's an art that you have to build to get to that level to be able to perform. And that's a key thing that I, that. The chiropractor's. are trained in through their, their education. I remember in first year, first year, first week, we started doing postural assessments. You start getting hand on, hands on with the other students so that you can start to feel what joints are like. And I always liked it, likened it to a to a martial art. You know, if you do a martial art twice a week for three years, you're pretty much a black belt. Doesn't matter what you do. So that's where most chiropractic students should get to by the time they start their student clinic. And then you start to go, if you're a martial artist, you're doing three or four sessions a week for the next two years, that gets you the first or second dance. Does that make sense? Yep. And then you practice that, and you know, I still do continuing education, you know, we have to do, I think it's 24 or 30 hours a year CPD. Like I, most years we'll do 300 plus because I just like learning stuff. So, outside of chiropractic, like I played national level basketball when I was in the UK. I played state level cricket when I was, when I was a kid here. So like, I'm used to performing at a high level, but to do that need coaching and training. You know, and you need people to feed back on what you're doing. So in chiropractic practice and technique, you know, Megan and I go into a seminar in a couple of weeks time to do more technique practice. Yeah. So there's that aspect of learning the art so that you can deliver force as well to the spine, which is a robust, You know, piece of physiology, but also you want the high quality skill set to be able to help that effectively. And you want the techniques to minimize the stress and strain on your body, because most chiropractors usually work for 40 years. So, yeah, I think about it with Dad, an animal chiropractor, you know, like he's done that for 30 plus years. You know, it's some of that particular horses, it's Quite hard on your, on your arms and your wrists and things. So, you know, there's a, there's an importance to looking after the technique side of things because you can, you can absolutely strain things, you know, if you, if you get sloppy with it or if you are. You know, you do it for a long time. There is a limitation on that. I, you know, there's a reason elite athletes are 35 or less, usually, unless you're LeBron James.

Speaker 3: 16:51

Yeah. Outside of being a chiropractor, what fills your time?

Speaker 5: 16:55

Time, kids, young kids, like they're young, young primary school age. So like, that's awesome. That's a key part of it. Like I'm six months off, three months off finishing a PhD. So yeah, that takes a chunk of time. I'm not in practice as much as I was because I wanted to, you know, I think that's an interesting thing. You know, when we looked at before we had kids, we looked at, you know, values and priorities and for, for, for both of us in our relationship, like the family side of things was really important. And Managing a work life balance was super important. So we were able to structure our working week so that we both, you know, me and I both had, you know, time with kids and time together. And there's been times where we haven't got that balance as good, particularly on managing that time together. But you know, you find that balance there to, to make sure that you, you know, you've got the first maybe five to seven years, if you're lucky with kids, where you really build that, Connection, and you get through like half the time you're going to spend with the kids by that stage, you know, like that goes.

Speaker 3: 17:57

Yep.

Speaker 5: 17:58

So we made a really conscious effort to manage time in practice, you know, because we were building practice and having young kids, you know, with spending time with the kids. Yeah, so that was a really important aspect of that. I mean, outside of that, like, I, look, I, I love, you know, Old Man Basketball Run up the coast, you know, that's, it's good to have, you know, that sort of social connection with, particularly with a bunch of guys that are you know, I'm in my 40s there and they're like 50s, 60s, 70s, one guy's 80, you know, like, and it's, it's great being around people that are still, you know, Functional and active and skilled. Most of the people like we do this old man basketball run with like have played a level of some sort and a lot of people have played like NBL or like country representation sort of thing. So, I love doing those bits and there's always bits about fitness too. Like I grew up on horses, I grew up playing basketball and cricket, like being active was always a big part of it. So like there's this chunk of time every week that's just, you know, important to engage in so that you stay healthy. And that varies over the years, whether it was CrossFit for a while, or, you know, national level basketball, or, you know, more target work at home type of thing. So

Speaker 3: 19:07

do chiropractors see other chiropractors?

Speaker 5: 19:09

Yeah, absolutely. Like in my, in my experience, in the, in the circles that I have the people that look at chiropractic as It's a great way to look after the musculoskeletal side of health and manage neck and back issues. But also then from a personal point of view, wanting to use it to help optimize, you know, function for my body to enhance the experience of life. So that's something that I get checked every week or two and yeah, that's 30 years in. So that's a personal sort of approach I'll take to

Speaker 3: 19:35

it. And it could be just my perspective of living out in the burbs all my life, but I often see that chiropractors are small business owners. You don't see, it's, it's different to other, when you look at physios or doctors, you see big surgeries and there's lots of, you know, employed practitioners. Why is there this, why are chiropractors always more business owners as well? Or it's, it's, it's an interesting thing. And

Speaker 5: 20:01

it's, and I think it's a trend. Globally, there's a, there's an element of growth in the utilization of chiropractic services in an integrated health setting. For, for most of the last 120 plus years that the carers have been around, there have been small business owners. Yeah. That's what we've done for 11 years. You know, it gives you in a lot of ways that freedom to, Manage the practice and time as best fits your life. It's interesting with the some of like the World Federation of Chiropractics which is the largest global chiropractic organization. You know, they have a quite a drive on integration in aspects. And there's some of the other countries are a little more advanced than Australia. And this, you know, the, The U. S. military has had chiropractors as part of their part of their service for, I think, 15 years now. That's something I'd love to see the Australian government do a lot more of. You know, we, we take care of lots of DVA people, you know, people that are ex military. And you can see, you know, with those guys, like, because DVA helps with that, there's not a, there's not a cost to them to come. We see people like that because they get results, you know, they, they feel and function better, like there's something that's very beneficial that they find out of that, you know, one of my experiences as a practitioner with them particularly ex military is like just their, their bandwidth for dealing with stress generally is way better, you know, and that's such an important thing, whether it's ex military or just people in the post COVID world, like dealing with stress better is such a big thing. So that's a common thing that we see there. You know, one of my colleagues is working in, you know, there's the, there's a big medical center just behind the practice. You know, he's been in there as a, as a practitioner for the last couple of years. So it's sort of a growth area, I think. There's discussions actually going on between, you know, aspects of the, the, the chief health officer and CQU and our national association to get CQ chiropractic students trying to get them accredited with Queensland Health so they can go in and do more of that. So there's been sort of, there's been barriers,

Speaker 4: 22:04

more

Speaker 5: 22:05

so politically to some of those things, but those are breaking down. You know, even my time in Caboolture, like I've found, you know, we've grown year on year with referrals that we get from the local medical practitioners because there's, you know, there's chronic disease management programs that they can refer for five visits that people can access with chronic issues. Hopefully over time that transitions into something that more of the general populace could use. Half a dozen, a dozen visits a year that, you know, our tax money helps optimise spinal mechanics along with, you know, doing some of the physical therapy or, you know, seeing the dietician or having a talk to the psychologist. Like there's these things where on a bigger picture as a, as a nation, I think we can have a broader conversation about enhancing health. capacities as opposed to mitigating disease processes only. We're good at that, like the emergency side of health care, like there's aspects that we're really good at, but I think there's a lot that can be done in that proactive approach to health for the population. And you're starting to see more of that integration process, but I think chiropractic and the perspective we bring to helping on a continuum from disease to health can be part of that conversation. So like I know our national associations engage with lots of the health ministers in the last six months about those sort of concepts as well. We had the, the shadow federal health minister in the practice along with our federal member a few months back just to have a look at the practice and look at some of the kids being checked and talk about those type of things. So I love that and I've seen that all around the country, you know, like politicians taking a bit more interest in looking at chiropractic as part of that bigger health care team and what they may have to offer in that space.

Speaker 3: 23:46

Yeah, that's awesome. Because it wasn't that long ago where Just saying that you go to a chiropractor would be met by some people in the community going, Oh, they just crack necks or that stuff leads to strokes. And where did that come from? Were people doing it bad or is there bad apples out there? Or was there just this, is it a fear thing? Where did the, Where does the bad concept of it come from?

Speaker 5: 24:11

It's a really, it's a good question, right? So there's multiple parts of that. You know, I think there's the, there's the bad apple part of it. Like, I mean, you go to a mechanic, you go to a a commercial leasing premises, you go to a GP, like everyone will find people they resonate with and do a better job. That's why most, particularly in the healthcare point of view, you have a regulation and, and a professional capacity to self regulate is really important. And the APRA does that, part of that job. And then you have all the, you know, the boards that sit below that for the different health professions. I, with chiropractic in particular, there's a, still a long hangover from the American Medical Association had a committee on quackery for almost 40 years. You know, there's a, there's a finding that. After like a 15 year battle went to I think it's the Supreme Court in the U. S. and, you know, Judge Getz and Danner, you know, made a ruling saying that the AMA had this committee that whose express purpose was to denigrate and destroy the chiropractic profession. So this was a top level Supreme Court finding that this was actively happening for decades. They had to print a retraction in, in the American Medical Association's journal and, you know, I think it was published again in 2011. The UK and America, like there's a hangover of that that, that then flowed onto, well, you know, because the, the AMA had this issue with chiropractors

Speaker 4: 25:36

that

Speaker 5: 25:36

flowed into the Australia because we looked at the US as the best place to go and you go to Harvard and all these sorts of places to get your education. So that political flow, and I think happened in Australia and that, that's one of the things I've noticed. In the, in the time, the last decade here is that shift in local GPs perspectives, you know, like we get, I mean, we get, we've grown every year with our referrals from GPs and part of that's communication, you know, like just sending a letter back and, you know, engage in that conversation is important. But that's where the, a lot of those thoughts and concerns people raise with and things like the stroke issue was put to bed, you know, years ago now in terms of like massive level. RCT assessments and data analysis, where like, usually people that are having strokes, you know, issues with blood supply to your brain, like most of the time, they're having a stroke and they go and see a GP or a chiropractor. There wasn't, in the biggest studies done to date Cassidy studies, they, there isn't a difference in terms of relative risk when you see a GP or a chiropractor. It's just like, there's a limitation of matter and something bad with your neck's going on. So that sort of deals with that type of stroke issue. You know, I'm optimistic about the environment in Australia and what's happened with, you know, people's You know, COVID was great in some ways for people's perspective on healthcare, like, Oh, actually the people that did worse with it, weren't really healthy anyway. So, you know, the more that you can take some of that self responsibility for health, that helps you drive forward and make healthy decisions over time. It sort of goes back to where we start with, you know, there's that doctor patient relationship that trans, transfers to more of a, you know, walking side by side with someone and, and being a, like a, a source of information and a feedback point to help someone on that journey.

Speaker 3: 27:26

So, It's long been thought, I guess, for people that sit in office chairs all day long and slumping over and stuff like that. What's your thoughts on a stand up desk? I love them. Right.

Speaker 5: 27:38

Yeah, I mean, so where I have my, Desk at home, like I've got a corner desk, but then I've got like

Speaker 4: 27:45

a

Speaker 5: 27:46

set of shelves that fits perfectly for my laptop. So I can just go and use that as a stand up desk. So it's something I use. Humans as, you know, we talked about this earlier, like bipedal organisms. We've been around as a species for a hundred thousand plus years. You know, you go back to Homo erectus and going towards chimp linkages millions of years ago. We're upright on two legs. So, Our systems are designed to get better feedback and our brain functions better when we get more regular symmetrical information coming in and standing up is a great part of that.

Speaker 3: 28:15

Yeah, wow.

Speaker 5: 28:16

Having a good setup helps too, I mean making sure it's a bit cushioned and it's the right heights and there's all those like the minutiae of detail for getting it set up right, but the general idea of a stand up desk is a great idea.

Speaker 3: 28:28

Yeah, awesome. If you could change one thing in the industry, what would you change?

Speaker 5: 28:34

In the industry? That's a really good question. Like, I think enhancing communication between, you know, the institutions, researchers and practitioners. Like, I think that's a really important part of that is is making sure there's, there's a good communication. Two way flow of information, because, you know, we want to, we live in a world of evidence based practice, you know, like, and we want to use the best available evidence we have, we've got a clinical experience, and then what the person who's coming to see us is after. So that's, that's evidence based practice. Most things that are researched are usually years behind what's happening in practice. Because you have to have had some case studies to say, hey, this is an interesting, you know, this person's having some changes in their gut. But they notice that when they're under care. So then we go and do like a cohort studies. And there's a bunch of people this happened for. Well, then we're going to do a randomized control trial. And then you go on a bigger randomized control trial. And that's got to be replicated in other parts of the world. To then. build a higher level of evidence for that particular intervention for a condition. I, I love the concept of looking at what we do as a profession helps individuals express life well. It helps have a healthier spinal nervous system. Good health as a result of that, particularly deals with musculoskeletal issues. Yeah, that's a really important perspective. If we start with, we just deal with MSK issues, neck pain and back pain, which we have high level evidence for. Then you miss out on all these other things that I've seen clinically in practice with hundreds and thousands of people over the time. So that's a really, that's an important part of the profession. That's why I'm involved in various boards and, you know, and committees and things to, to help with that two way feedback between the, the profession, the practitioners, the researchers, what the current evidence is, where the research is being done on what stuff. And that sort of complex interplay, I think that's the better that gets over time, the more you have research guided in, in areas that are relevant to real world practice, but then also, you know, have the utility of being assessed in a high level understanding of the scientific method so that you, you get clear pictures on what, you know, Interventions for outcomes mean for people in different states of health.

Speaker 3: 30:50

Hmm. Yeah, awesome. What's the future hold for Dr. Matt? I mean, you, you, you're working on a PhD. Is, is, is that the last year study? What you've already done some travel. Do you travel again?

Speaker 5: 31:03

I, I think my I think my wife would kick me if I started to go down another academic route another study route straight away. So with, I mean, like I've done four years of teaching to this point already outside of, that was in two different institutions. So CQ and Barcelona. So I'd love to do more on the academic side of things down the track. You know, the kids are young, like, we've got a good caravan, you know, we're going to go and do some more of that next year so we can, you know, see more of the country. You know, we did Cape York this year. It was amazing, you know, like, but having the, having the vehicle set up so it could be remote and like on some of the places that it's not easy to get to. You know, like I love that side of adventuring, you know, it's one of the things I loved about Europe was like, I went to a different country every month for seven years, you know. Yeah, wow. You know, like there's a lot to see in the world. And I think, you know, it goes back to that work life family balance, you know, like over the next year or so, like the kids are just about transitioning into that sort of middle school and going into high school. So they're still in that kid stage. They're able to go out and do stuff. So we've got an amazing country. So it's good to go and see a bit of that while we can, because you build memories and connections that, you know, you never lose, you know, whatever happens down the track, like, and they'll go and explore and have their own journeys that we get to support. But you know, it's, it's not far from where that becomes you, you've more of the backseat. So, yeah, there'll be, there'll be some adventures to come, I'm sure.

Speaker 3: 32:23

Yeah. Awesome.

Speaker 5: 32:24

Thank you very much for chatting with me today. I appreciate it, man. That's awesome.

Speaker 3: 32:26

Cheers, mate. Did you have a

Speaker 5: 32:28

brother that

Speaker 3: 32:29

is a

Speaker 5: 32:29

chiropractor? Yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah, he's in Newcastle.

Speaker 3: 32:32

So, so how does a vet from Caboolture end up with two sons as chiropractors though? What do you think? Where did that come

Speaker 5: 32:39

from? Well, so he he'd had neck and back pain for 20 years and they'd seen, you know, other health practitioners, physios, GPs, you know, a lot of good people over the years. And he got some relief, but they hadn't sorted it. Pat, who works for him, had gone and seen my apostles who was working literally where we bought the practice off the Kramers, like, you know, where Richardson and Renshaw are. Yeah, yep. They're in that building. So he went there and six weeks later, like, his neck and back was starting to feel better and the asthma he'd had his whole life went away, you know, and then, so then the rest of the family came in and got checked. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So that's, that's 30 years ago. Yeah. Gotcha. So that, that was, that was the instigating Yeah. Change. Yeah. Like he started inception point. Yeah. Yeah. Well, very much so. Like, you know, he, he'd had a, as a vet, like he also. was, had looked at some of the Chinese med stuff and some acupuncture. He, you know, his, his use of pharmacological things is, is lower than most vets because, you know, he tries some more natural things first, so there's time and place for drugs, but he, he looked at these areas and he started looking at animal chiropractic as he started getting adjusted and then that, you know, he went and studied in the U. S. for a couple of years. He went over for a month at a time to the U. S. To do animal chiropractic studies.

Speaker 3: 33:53

Wow.

Speaker 5: 33:54

Because I remember that like I was a teenager, so like I'd look after, you know, two stallions and ten horses on the property whilst, you know, in the middle of winter because it was summer over there. Yeah. That was all part of the process. And then when RMIT ran an animal chiropractic program, he went and did that post grad diploma, the two year program there.

Speaker: 34:12

To, to finish the qualification. And so because he'd been doing some of the work already, he helped with some of the demonstration in the early stages for the RMIT animal chiropractic program. So then he was involved for a little while with the Australian Veterinary Chiropractic Association, which is now the Australian Biomechanical, Animal Biomechanical Association. Right.