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AXREM Insights
S6E2 - AXREM State of the Nation: Innovation, AI and the Future of UK Healthcare
In this State of the Nation episode of AXREM Insights, Sally Edgington and guest presenter Ehren Pawley are joined by Huw Shurmer, Chair of AXREM, and Jeevan Gunaratnam, Vice Chair, to explore the challenges and opportunities facing UK healthcare.
The conversation reflects on the findings of AXREM’s State of the Nation Report, authored by the Future Leaders Council, which highlights issues such as governance reforms, outdated technology, and the complexities of embedding AI in the NHS. The guests discuss how innovation, smarter procurement, and closer collaboration between industry, government and clinicians can help to protect patient safety while improving productivity.
The episode also looks at the future of cancer care, digital transformation and the role of medtech suppliers in enabling prevention, community-based services, and AI-driven efficiencies. Referencing AXREM’s AI Manifesto and the Cyber Security Strategy, the panel emphasise the need for trust, responsible adoption and long-term investment. Listeners are encouraged to engage with AXREM’s work and see how industry collaboration can support the NHS to deliver better outcomes for patients now and in the years ahead.
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[00:00.000 --> 00:06.160] Welcome to AXREM Insights, developing healthcare through medtech and innovation. Join Melanie
[00:06.160 --> 00:10.480] Johnson and Sally Edgington as they talk with our industry leaders and experts.
[00:11.280 --> 00:18.080] Hello and welcome to AXREM Insights, State of the Nation podcast. I'm Sallie Edgington and I am here
[00:18.080 --> 00:25.360] with guest presenter Ehren Pawley, AXREM Future Leader and BID Project Manager at Sectra. Today
[00:25.360 --> 00:30.560] we have the pleasure to be speaking to Jeevan Ganaratnam and Huw Shurmer. Welcome both
[00:30.560 --> 00:35.680] Huw and Jeevan and thank you for being on our show today. Let's start by handing over to you
[00:35.680 --> 00:40.320] to tell us a bit about yourselves and what's your story. So we'll start with Huw first.
[00:41.920 --> 00:45.920] Good morning. I wasn't expecting that question. Yeah, I'm Huw Shurmer. I'm Strategic Government
[00:45.920 --> 00:50.320] Relationship Manager at Fuji Film and Chair of AXREM and how much of my story do you want to hear?
[00:50.800 --> 00:55.840] You can just tell us a bit. We've obviously had you on a podcast before Huw so I don't want to
[00:55.840 --> 01:00.320] duplicate too much but maybe if you can just talk about the work you've been doing with AXREM over
[01:00.320 --> 01:07.360] the last 12 months or so. Yeah, so well I joined the AXREM committee probably about five and a half
[01:07.360 --> 01:12.720] years ago now, got very involved and I guess the secret is is don't talk too much because if you
[01:12.720 --> 01:17.440] talk too much you make eye contact, you end up getting more responsibility in a role. So
[01:18.160 --> 01:25.280] I probably got a bit gobby in some of the committees and ended up then being voted
[01:25.280 --> 01:30.240] as Vice Chair and now got the reins of Chair for the next 18 months. It's gone very, very quickly
[01:30.240 --> 01:35.680] but I've seen a lot of change in this last probably three, four years. I think Jeevan
[01:35.680 --> 01:41.600] will agree with that. We've seen the membership increase. I'm really keen and proud to see the
[01:41.600 --> 01:48.640] diversity of members coming in that it's not just the big companies but there's smaller startups
[01:48.640 --> 01:54.960] and small business representation that we're covering. I'd like to see a bit more
[01:55.840 --> 02:01.200] links between the bigger companies, mentoring or finding gaps and support for the smaller companies
[02:01.200 --> 02:06.640] in the market and I think with the ever-changing landscape in the NHS there's a lot of opportunity
[02:06.640 --> 02:13.040] for us as AXREM to do more and to integrate with government but also for us to do more for our
[02:13.040 --> 02:19.120] members and establish ourselves as almost like an ecosystem of businesses and solutions to the NHS.
[02:19.120 --> 02:26.480] Fantastic, thank you. Yeah and over to you Jeevan. Good morning or hi everyone. Jeevan Gunaratnam.
[02:26.480 --> 02:34.960] So I look after government affairs for Philips UK and Ireland and I also lead the independent sector
[02:34.960 --> 02:42.240] so kind of private hospital groups and the vets, military and lots of other interesting
[02:42.240 --> 02:51.520] kind of business partners and customers. So I'm now vice chair of AXREM. I'm on my way kind of down
[02:51.520 --> 02:58.480] I guess to rolling down to December when I will no longer be in that role and hopefully back on
[02:58.480 --> 03:04.480] the executive committee. It's been a fantastic four years or three and a half years so far,
[03:05.280 --> 03:11.440] really enjoying it, loving working with the team, Sally and her team and also with Huw and the
[03:11.440 --> 03:18.160] Future Leaders Council. Yeah just to echo a little bit about what Huw said, it's a really
[03:18.160 --> 03:23.920] interesting time I think for all of us and it's interesting in a couple of ways. Firstly there is
[03:23.920 --> 03:30.800] a lot going on in the NHS and we are I think living through some of the challenges and I think
[03:30.800 --> 03:37.360] we will talk about them in more detail post Covid and you know the economic and technology
[03:37.360 --> 03:44.560] and workforce challenges facing the NHS. I think what's even more interesting is there is
[03:44.560 --> 03:49.520] there are lots of kind of global factors in play so there is a bit of a global realignment right
[03:49.520 --> 03:55.040] now. We are seeing that of course in the US but we're seeing that all over the world and for
[03:56.000 --> 04:02.000] companies both large and small that leads to huge kind of impacts and ramifications in
[04:02.640 --> 04:09.040] how we develop and bring products to market, how we do business etc. So there's lots to do,
[04:09.040 --> 04:14.880] lots to think about scratching my head. It's never boring and yeah loving it so glad to be here. Thank
[04:14.880 --> 04:20.720] you. Yeah never a dull moment at AXREM. I've been with AXREM now for six years and
[04:20.720 --> 04:27.440] no two days have ever been the same which is what keeps me here and keeps me motivated. So a bit
[04:27.440 --> 04:31.760] more now about the State of the Nation report. So patient safety is more than a principle,
[04:31.760 --> 04:37.280] it's a shared responsibility and it underpins every clinical decision, procurement framework
[04:37.280 --> 04:42.320] and innovation pathway. As AXREM continues to champion high standards in med tech and
[04:42.320 --> 04:47.600] imaging services, our latest State of the Nation report written by our Future Leaders Council
[04:47.600 --> 04:52.720] reflects growing concern over system-wide risks that could undermine this safety net.
[04:53.360 --> 04:58.880] From governance reforms and outdated technology to the challenges of scaling AI and meeting cancer
[04:58.880 --> 05:04.640] targets, today we are going to explore four pressing questions. Each one invites candid
[05:04.640 --> 05:10.480] reflection, both ideas and a renewed commitment to collaboration between industry, government and
[05:10.480 --> 05:15.680] frontline NHS services. So I'm now going to hand over to Aaron for the first question.
[05:16.320 --> 05:19.920] Thank you very much Sally and again thank you so much guys for being here to answer the questions.
[05:20.480 --> 05:25.680] So my first question ideally is mainly around our report and in our report we identified that the
[05:25.680 --> 05:32.240] abolition of the NHS by 2026 aimed to streamline governance but poses risks to long-term programs
[05:32.240 --> 05:37.840] and supply continuity. What do you think the DHSC needs to do to mitigate and minimize any of these
[05:37.840 --> 05:49.920] risks particularly? Aaron you said you're abolition of the NHS, I think you meant the
[05:49.920 --> 06:00.000] abolition of NHS England right? Sorry yes absolutely. I clearly got the other memo you see.
[06:08.640 --> 06:11.760] You're leading the way because you're ahead of the news curve too compared to us.
[06:15.600 --> 06:21.680] Could you just repeat the second part of that initial question? Absolutely, what would it
[06:21.680 --> 06:28.560] help if I just repeat the entire question? Would that be easier? So in our state of the nation
[06:28.560 --> 06:34.720] report we've identified that the abolition of NHS England, spoilers, by 2026 aims to streamline
[06:34.720 --> 06:40.240] governance that poses risks to long-term programs and supplier continuity. What do you think the
[06:40.240 --> 06:46.720] DHSC needs to do to mitigate and minimize any of these risks to these long-term programs?
[06:47.760 --> 06:53.200] It's really interesting. The Department of Health obviously you know there was big announcement
[06:53.200 --> 06:59.040] around the reintegration I think is the language that's probably preferred these days to
[07:00.000 --> 07:07.760] abolition of NHS England back into the Department of Health and the truth is that sometimes when
[07:07.760 --> 07:13.280] these things are announced and then you have a little bit of a run-up into the actual actions
[07:13.280 --> 07:19.040] it turns out that they're sometimes a lot more complicated than originally anticipated so I
[07:19.040 --> 07:25.840] think that has ended up having a bit of an impact on timing and so what we will probably see is
[07:26.320 --> 07:33.680] that things won't go quite as fast as I think some people initially intended and so that gives us
[07:33.680 --> 07:40.080] it gives the Department of Health a little bit of room I think to look at the situation and adapt
[07:40.640 --> 07:46.080] and then we put that into the context of the 10-year plan and the 10-year plan I think some
[07:46.080 --> 07:51.040] people thought was going to be a kind of panacea or a kind of you know this is it this is the
[07:51.040 --> 07:59.040] solution and so on and that is now looking more and more likely to be a three plus seven year
[07:59.040 --> 08:07.440] plan the three being what do they need to do right now versus what they may need to prepare
[08:07.440 --> 08:12.240] for the kind of the reform that's coming and so if we look at the Department of Health and put it
[08:12.240 --> 08:18.000] in the context of what's the three plus seven type of plan I think part of it is the Department
[08:18.000 --> 08:25.440] of Health needs to ensure that over the next three years there is continued focus on the
[08:25.440 --> 08:32.720] productivity to bring the waiting list down and I think to address some of the there is some core
[08:34.160 --> 08:41.280] you know lack of confidence in some elements of the NHS so specifically waiting times
[08:41.360 --> 08:49.280] for GP appointments waiting times for outpatient care inpatient isn't so much of a challenge I
[08:49.280 --> 08:56.320] think that outpatient care there are a lot very long waiting time and also A&E attendances and
[08:56.320 --> 09:00.560] dealing with that so you know when we talk about patient safety what does that mean that means
[09:00.560 --> 09:06.800] things which are emergencies and you need to be in A&E but also cancer you know and long-term
[09:06.800 --> 09:12.720] things where there are long-term waits so you know for us as suppliers the implications are
[09:13.280 --> 09:21.200] we need to see a continued investment in technology and productivity and the adoption of AI
[09:21.200 --> 09:30.720] technologies and a regulatory landscape that doesn't slow down innovation and so I think
[09:30.720 --> 09:35.040] all of those things are really important and they're things that we as industry need to look for
[09:35.040 --> 09:40.080] and we need the Department of Health to support that the department needs to focus on patient
[09:40.080 --> 09:46.320] safety of course but also on productivity and AI plays a huge part in that productivity
[09:46.320 --> 09:52.720] I think the department would also want to look at making sure that the assets are up to date
[09:52.720 --> 09:58.400] so they're doing a huge piece of work around understanding with NHS supply chain understanding
[09:58.400 --> 10:04.480] what the NHS has and how it's being managed and how it's being either replaced or upgraded etc
[10:05.200 --> 10:10.400] and I think from IT point of view the interoperability because we're seeing
[10:10.960 --> 10:17.760] more and more kind of cross-working so working across imaging networks regions etc so do all
[10:17.760 --> 10:24.320] those bits of the system talk to each other smoothly you know if I go to hospital A and then
[10:24.320 --> 10:30.080] I need a follow-up at hospital B how easy is it for both of them to be able to see my records
[10:30.160 --> 10:37.280] without having to ask a patient to be re-imaged or reassessed so all of these things are really
[10:37.280 --> 10:42.080] important and part of it and I think I could talk about I think the last thing I'd probably
[10:42.080 --> 10:51.760] mention is that they they need to also support us I think in making sure that we we create
[10:51.760 --> 10:57.440] engagement to allow because there's no money so one of the challenges is going to be how do we
[10:57.440 --> 11:03.680] deliver all of that I know the Secretary of State for Health has been reluctant to go down the route
[11:03.680 --> 11:10.960] of private public partnerships in in terms of what that used to look like in the old regime
[11:10.960 --> 11:17.440] of financial kind of arrangements but what financial innovations could they have that support
[11:17.440 --> 11:22.320] funding a lot of this and allowing us to do this you know at pace I'm talking a lot so I'm going
[11:22.320 --> 11:26.960] to just pause it no no that's that's a that's a really good point and I think as well I think
[11:26.960 --> 11:32.240] it's important you mentioned there with the lack of funding and the and the focus on productivity
[11:33.200 --> 11:36.240] I think you're making it very clear that obviously the way out of this obviously it has to be
[11:36.240 --> 11:41.760] innovation it has to be kind of following technology and making more efficient doing more with less
[11:41.760 --> 11:46.080] because obviously the the harder you drive for productivity you also need to be consideration
[11:46.080 --> 11:50.880] or have a consideration of the clinical safety side as well because otherwise you'll get too
[11:50.880 --> 11:54.960] much pushing for efficiencies and it becomes very mechanical people forget at the heart of
[11:54.960 --> 11:58.720] it obviously it's about patient care you don't want to shortcut you don't need to kind of
[11:58.720 --> 12:05.280] we don't want to push too hard and compromise that patient safety as well so absolutely absolutely
[12:05.280 --> 12:09.280] I was just gonna say you touched on a couple of good points there Jeeva and I think that
[12:09.280 --> 12:15.680] we need to make the UK a good place to innovate and do business and I think that at the moment
[12:15.680 --> 12:19.520] it's not and that's the feedback I get from companies that contact me that are looking to
[12:19.520 --> 12:25.040] come and do business with the NHS and decide not to meaning our patients are actually missing out
[12:25.040 --> 12:31.440] on innovations that are working for other patients in other countries and I think that we do need to
[12:31.440 --> 12:36.880] see a big shift because the government say they want us to be the third largest life science
[12:37.600 --> 12:45.680] sector by 2030 you know we are behind China and the US I think there's a lot of work to do to get
[12:45.680 --> 12:51.520] us to that point and 2030 I mean I blink and it was Christmas last year and we're heading
[12:51.520 --> 12:56.640] towards Christmas this year five years is not a long time so I think we really need to look at
[12:56.640 --> 13:03.280] that and I think as well Jeevan touched on a key point around like electronic patient records and
[13:03.280 --> 13:09.360] image sharing and we're aware of the national imaging registry that's being set up but it's
[13:09.360 --> 13:14.480] been in the pipeline for a while and I know it's making great progress but that is essential when
[13:14.480 --> 13:21.280] we've got a workforce shortage that images can be shared and just by way of example my son was
[13:21.280 --> 13:27.440] taken poorly in Cornwall last year and had a CT scan and when he got home he then was admitted
[13:27.440 --> 13:32.160] to Kettering General Hospital and had to have another CT scan because they couldn't access the
[13:32.160 --> 13:38.400] CT scan and to me a that's bonkers in terms of the financial implication but also the workforce
[13:38.400 --> 13:44.000] shortage so I think that there's things like that that need to be invested in and scaled quickly
[13:44.560 --> 13:51.600] because that will solve not all the problems but it will certainly help a long way along there and
[13:51.600 --> 13:55.360] I'll hand over now to because I'm talking a lot to Huw because I know you've got some points to
[13:55.360 --> 13:58.960] raise here as well. Yeah the main point I want to make is we're talking about the risks of the
[13:58.960 --> 14:02.560] operational side that Jeevan has picked up there's also risks here to the government there's a very
[14:02.560 --> 14:09.520] bold move has taken out NHSE out of the equation there and all that was a there's a layer of
[14:09.520 --> 14:14.000] bureaucracy you could argue that's been there but it's also been a buffer for the government
[14:14.480 --> 14:20.320] and I think Wes Streeton making that decision really puts his head on the block a little bit
[14:20.320 --> 14:27.760] to make it work and you know any criticisms in the NHS has always stopped on the door of NHSE up
[14:27.760 --> 14:33.120] until now and that kind of filters a little bit closer back and back into the cabinet so on
[14:33.120 --> 14:38.240] the one side it makes it a lot closer for the political management but the other side will we
[14:38.240 --> 14:45.600] see more political accountability I'm I'd like to think so I'm I don't know but also during this
[14:45.600 --> 14:53.840] this phase of transition I think DHC has to keep that patient focus patient safety in mind as well
[14:53.840 --> 15:00.880] it's great to go through this metamorphosis of what they are likely to become and engage with
[15:00.880 --> 15:06.160] industry and play the political part but the patient how do they keep the patient in focus
[15:06.160 --> 15:11.840] as well I think there's there's a big risk there and I think as well myself and Jeevan were at NHS
[15:11.840 --> 15:17.600] confed and we both listened to where Streeting's address there didn't we Jeevan and what he said
[15:17.600 --> 15:22.960] was is that he cannot do it alone and it is a team effort and basically we're all on this journey
[15:22.960 --> 15:29.360] together it's make or break for the NHS and we need to be on the path together but what I'm
[15:29.360 --> 15:35.280] probably not seeing which I'd like to see more of is the government truly properly engaging with
[15:35.280 --> 15:41.360] industry via trade associations like AXREM because you know they the government made a pledge to
[15:41.360 --> 15:49.520] double scanner capacity in their manifesto we represent the whole CT and MRI UK market
[15:49.520 --> 15:55.120] yeah we're finding it really difficult to engage with them on that and it's not about just bringing
[15:55.120 --> 16:00.160] out more scanners it's about using the scanners they've got to their best efficiencies and we're
[16:00.240 --> 16:07.520] able to offer them advice and help on how to do that so I just would love to see the government
[16:07.520 --> 16:13.040] truly seeing industry as a partner because without industry they cannot achieve the 10-year plan
[16:13.040 --> 16:17.600] and they cannot achieve what they want to you know before they come to a next general election
[16:17.600 --> 16:21.520] and they're going to want some headlines of things that they've achieved and we can help them do that
[16:22.080 --> 16:26.000] yep I completely agree I was I was going to I'm glad you raised it because I was going to raise
[16:26.000 --> 16:34.000] same point there are I think the result of that reduction or removal of the layer of NHS England
[16:34.000 --> 16:41.040] will be that there are fewer places left to fail and as a result there's going to be a much bigger
[16:41.040 --> 16:49.280] ask of industry we see it certainly as industry to be part of solving those those difficult
[16:49.280 --> 16:56.560] challenges and I think what we're looking for is more clarity on what that role is for us
[16:56.560 --> 17:03.360] and it it's all related to things I mean if you just take the label of patient safety
[17:03.920 --> 17:09.520] you know there's so much we can do you know patient safety in terms of cyber security
[17:10.320 --> 17:18.080] you know and and being able to protect our health network from a cyber attack and and and continue
[17:18.080 --> 17:23.280] to deliver health services and we've seen what happens when that doesn't happen you know when
[17:23.280 --> 17:29.680] that's sort of jeopardy patient safety in terms of reducing the waiting lists and and one thing
[17:29.680 --> 17:37.840] that I'm passionate about is a national MR screening program for prostate imaging for prostate cancer
[17:37.840 --> 17:44.800] but if you've already got a very long waiting list for MR it's really hard to have a conversation
[17:44.800 --> 17:50.880] around a future role for MR in in a screening program because you haven't got the capacity to
[17:50.880 --> 17:56.160] do that so so there are lots of things where technology can actually actually make a huge
[17:56.160 --> 18:02.800] difference and improve the health of the nation and improve patient safety and drive prevention
[18:02.800 --> 18:08.320] and all that kind of stuff but we we need to be part of that early engagement and I'm not sure
[18:08.320 --> 18:12.880] we're quite where we need to be on that but also if you look at that earlier you're saying that
[18:12.880 --> 18:18.400] about a prostate screening for example there may be other technologies out there that enable that
[18:18.400 --> 18:24.000] in a kind of triage form that then freeze up the capacity of the bigger scanners so I think in
[18:24.000 --> 18:27.440] action we should we should be looking at our members to see what innovation we've made this
[18:27.440 --> 18:32.400] comment a couple of times that are chatting now about innovation and a route to it so our members
[18:32.400 --> 18:38.400] could well have have other ways of being able to filter out the negatives to allow the positives
[18:38.400 --> 18:43.200] to go through to the bigger scanners and it's that it's that engaging with with the politicians
[18:43.200 --> 18:50.400] to understand what the three-year five-year plan for that kind of pathway is going to be that then
[18:50.400 --> 18:54.560] we can come back to our membership to say how do we make this work yeah and I've actually got an
[18:54.560 --> 18:58.640] additional question because we've kind of touched on it and I think just to kind of bottom out what
[18:58.640 --> 19:03.600] we've been talking about is talked about the NHS 10-year plan and obviously there's the three big
[19:03.600 --> 19:08.560] shifts hospital to community analog to digital and from sickness to prevention and I know what
[19:08.560 --> 19:15.120] my answer to this would be so I'm going to spring this on Huw, what role do you think our sector's
[19:15.120 --> 19:21.040] got to play with those three shifts? I think we've got a strong part to play in all of them
[19:21.040 --> 19:26.880] we are predominantly in digital I can't think of any analog really in our membership I'll probably
[19:26.880 --> 19:31.680] be corrected before long but you know we're a digital provider aren't we our members are
[19:31.680 --> 19:38.080] predominantly digital so a government coming to us to help with those shifts is a no-brainer we
[19:38.080 --> 19:44.320] can answer a lot of those questions and help so much with that. Prevention again so many of our
[19:44.320 --> 19:52.720] scanners screening areas our members prevention is certainly an area where we can work and
[19:52.720 --> 19:57.120] I've done those in the wrong order I can't remember what the first one was. From hospital to community?
[19:57.120 --> 20:03.360] The community of course CDC's look at the number of CDC's and community diagnostics
[20:04.000 --> 20:10.160] services that we can do and it's not just from a diagnostic imaging area we've got connectivity
[20:10.160 --> 20:15.840] we've got IT systems interoperability which she even mentioned previously there's all of these
[20:15.840 --> 20:25.200] different areas of community diagnostics that we can work and advise on and I'm not sure that
[20:25.200 --> 20:30.400] the government or even any of the trusts health boards any other organizations can do that alone
[20:30.400 --> 20:35.840] because they all need to be standards based all these standards based really predominantly
[20:35.840 --> 20:40.960] work within industry you need to get all that kind of quality side of things done through all of our
[20:40.960 --> 20:47.280] members and I think Axlum is in a prime area to make that industry standard. Yeah and Aaron do
[20:47.280 --> 20:51.680] you have anything you wanted to add on that from a future leaders perspective or in relation to the
[20:51.680 --> 20:56.320] state of the nation report? No I think you've addressed pretty much every point that we certainly
[20:56.320 --> 21:00.000] looked at ourselves and I'll see if it come from a far more experienced side of things which is
[21:00.000 --> 21:04.480] actually quite refreshing from our point of view because we can only see what we've seen based a
[21:04.480 --> 21:09.680] lot of us are NHS or have been NHS based previously and only seen the things on the ground which were
[21:09.680 --> 21:15.360] indeed kind of that struggling with outdated equipment or struggling with finding the latest
[21:15.360 --> 21:20.320] innovations moving forwards and yeah no it's it's I think I think it's echoed from the most
[21:20.320 --> 21:25.440] experienced individuals you know who've seen the NHS development grow and evolve over time
[21:25.440 --> 21:31.520] and us who are coming up through kind of the the trenches if you will and and experiencing it
[21:31.520 --> 21:37.200] firsthand and although as I say there are movements currently it is a marathon and it's hard to see
[21:37.200 --> 21:42.160] those those changes especially at our level because obviously as we evolve and change as well
[21:42.880 --> 21:46.640] nothing changes fast nothing changes too drastically so for us it's hard to see if there
[21:46.640 --> 21:51.840] is any progress moving forwards and and maybe that's something I mean how do you guys see it
[21:51.840 --> 21:55.840] changing because obviously as I say we're talking about innovation we're talking about but everything
[21:55.840 --> 22:00.080] with the NHS tends to be long-term procurements tend to be you know five ten years it's not a
[22:00.080 --> 22:04.880] yearly kind of change and obviously you'd hope that the vendors will keep things up to date but
[22:04.880 --> 22:11.120] if there are more efficient products on the market or if there are kind of innovations that are
[22:11.120 --> 22:16.400] untapped that the rest of the world have access to how would you think we would have to kind of
[22:16.400 --> 22:22.800] marry that with our current model and see that change I think I think the main area that's going
[22:22.800 --> 22:27.520] to be procurement isn't it yeah procurement is going to be is going to be the route to enabling
[22:27.520 --> 22:35.600] those and you and you you add outcomes based longer term partnerships less capital more revenue
[22:35.600 --> 22:40.880] based and making them through outcome I'd like to say outcomes based and something has to be
[22:40.880 --> 22:47.760] delivered as well as the the tin to get those benefits back to the NHS I just want to go back
[22:47.760 --> 22:54.080] to one point really quickly and something you mentioned made me think of something then
[22:54.080 --> 22:59.360] and it's probably a generational thing now is that Jeevan and I would probably remember the industry
[22:59.440 --> 23:07.040] back in the kind of late 1990s into the into the early early 20s where there was a move from
[23:07.600 --> 23:13.120] analog film to digital at that point and we went through all that then right and there was a the
[23:13.120 --> 23:18.160] move from multiple cottage hospitals that we'd then have to that had one little x-ray department
[23:18.160 --> 23:23.840] in there that was that was running on on on film and you connecting all of these in connecting all
[23:23.840 --> 23:31.440] of these in so this this kind of ethos of working to these to these shifts has happened in the past
[23:31.440 --> 23:36.320] and now we kind of bring in that we need to bring that those kind of experience now into a much
[23:36.320 --> 23:43.920] broader and larger landscape into the all of NHS England but that is only going to get the
[23:43.920 --> 23:48.160] continuity of service when you're looking at this from a procurement point of views how do you then
[23:48.160 --> 23:54.960] enable this to happen and be sustainable over 10 15 20 years you look I think we've been looking
[23:54.960 --> 23:59.680] at much longer partnerships with the NHS absolutely and I think as well it kind of echoes your points
[23:59.680 --> 24:04.000] you've already made in that the dialogue needs to be from obviously the government with the
[24:04.000 --> 24:09.280] trade partners with the people on the ground who are you know the first ones to kind of experience
[24:09.280 --> 24:13.520] or get in touch with it these kind of innovations and it needs to be that dialogue between them
[24:13.520 --> 24:18.400] saying how do we translate that into our current system and make sure it's robust enough to survive
[24:18.400 --> 24:26.160] 15 20 years time without being obsolete and putting excess strain absolutely yeah the NHS
[24:26.160 --> 24:31.440] continues to struggle with outdated imaging equipment a technology backlog and a procurement
[24:31.440 --> 24:38.000] system still favoring low cost over value-based solutions how can industry work with the government
[24:38.000 --> 24:43.120] nhse and the department of health and social care to help solve these issues and is it all
[24:43.120 --> 24:49.440] about investment and I'll go to Jeevan on this one first I noticed as part of that question we
[24:49.440 --> 24:57.440] didn't cover staff the workforce and I think that is a really important part of it too ultimately
[24:57.440 --> 25:04.800] we make you know medical technology but our customers are the typically the people using
[25:04.800 --> 25:11.200] the technology to treat patients to deal with the patients and so they are that community the
[25:11.200 --> 25:18.640] radiographers radiologists and cardiologists etc are such an important part of the world and
[25:18.640 --> 25:24.240] if you look at patient monitoring it's it's the the critical care teams at bedside you know
[25:24.240 --> 25:30.320] there's such an important part of the delivery piece so anything we want to do we have to do
[25:30.320 --> 25:36.960] in complete partnership with the workforce and I think one of the challenges we have right now is
[25:37.760 --> 25:44.080] they are so overloaded with the day job that sometimes it's hard to find the bandwidth so
[25:44.080 --> 25:48.560] there are two or three things here I'm going to get on my soapbox a little bit it's hard for them
[25:48.560 --> 25:55.440] to find the bandwidth to be able to look at the possible and and we're always grateful to have
[25:56.880 --> 26:01.760] customers who want to do that or have either want to create that because they're driven to
[26:02.000 --> 26:07.680] do things better but it's having that bandwidth to be able to say how could I change a pathway
[26:07.680 --> 26:12.720] what could this technology do for for us how could it drive better value more efficiency
[26:12.720 --> 26:19.760] modernize etc so I think that's part of it is having the bandwidth and secondly how do we
[26:19.760 --> 26:25.920] create the landscape because um Ehren I think you're really you're quite right in saying
[26:26.720 --> 26:35.040] some of this it seems like it's just taking a long time and yeah and and it is the the truth
[26:35.040 --> 26:40.960] is it is taking a long time and the reason is that if we want to talk about value-based health care
[26:40.960 --> 26:46.720] so NHS supply chains looking at it um there's a mandate to bring department of health wants
[26:46.720 --> 26:53.920] future procurement to be there there's guidelines on it but it's it's only starting to look at some
[26:54.480 --> 27:01.360] of the problem and we're not going to see huge transformation overnight right so our job
[27:01.360 --> 27:09.200] is actually to help our partners kind of test out new models and and help them because sometimes
[27:09.200 --> 27:16.000] when we look at ai and how hard it's been to get ai into the nhs and the fact that you rely on
[27:16.880 --> 27:23.680] clinicians to fight really hard to you know die on a hill if you like of saying you know
[27:23.680 --> 27:29.280] I want this or or else um and it's really hard because that that that in effect is a kind of a
[27:29.280 --> 27:35.840] burnout strategy you know you you can get one bit of technology into one hospital you can't repeat
[27:35.840 --> 27:40.560] that very easily because the people just don't have the energy to be able to do that every
[27:40.560 --> 27:45.760] single time so I think part of our responsibility is to encourage the department of health and
[27:45.760 --> 27:51.280] procurement to remove those barriers where we see them that we think are going to be blocked
[27:51.280 --> 27:57.600] to block them I think there's also an education piece around us being seen as not just trying to
[27:57.600 --> 28:05.600] sell more boxes you know we need and want the nhs to thrive and we recognize our role as part
[28:05.600 --> 28:11.120] of the solution and we need to move away I think there needs to be a conversation around how we
[28:11.120 --> 28:17.360] are partners rather than just gonna you know shift shift some products and you know and and
[28:17.360 --> 28:22.640] run away with with with the profits so so these are really mature conversations and they're not
[28:22.640 --> 28:27.120] things that there's a there's a huge element of trust in there and that's something that doesn't
[28:27.120 --> 28:34.400] happen overnight so I do think there will be you know a little bit of uh to and fro on this topic
[28:34.400 --> 28:40.800] the challenge is everybody's in a hurry to find a solution um when we look outside of health care
[28:40.800 --> 28:48.720] the rate of change and adoption of technology is massive if you look at what ai and agentic ai
[28:48.720 --> 28:55.520] and things like the the zoom call or teams call that we may use and how that's transformed um
[28:56.080 --> 29:02.640] within a year within you know 18 months and look then I'm not sure we're able to deliver
[29:02.640 --> 29:09.120] that same rate of change in the nhs and maybe and I would argue why would we want to because there
[29:09.120 --> 29:14.320] are certain things like health care and maybe aviation where sometimes it's it's better to go
[29:14.320 --> 29:19.600] just a little bit slower and safety is a is a primary concern so we may want to throttle back
[29:19.600 --> 29:26.800] on that a little bit but to sally's point I think uh we need to we need we need to be seen as
[29:26.800 --> 29:34.080] partners we need to be seen as open to looking at uh different pathways and how we adjust those
[29:34.080 --> 29:40.320] and actually different have a different maturity around financial rewards so you know the the
[29:40.320 --> 29:45.760] traditional model of tariff-based activity uh we maybe want to look at something where
[29:46.400 --> 29:52.480] we own part of the problem and we share in the reward so if we as a technology provider can
[29:52.480 --> 29:58.480] improve efficiency improve outcomes drive productivity do we get paid on those results
[29:58.480 --> 30:03.920] rather than just on selling the product itself yeah exactly what I think if the if the metric
[30:03.920 --> 30:09.520] changes to be more outcomes than than box shifting then I think that we're walking a parallel path
[30:09.520 --> 30:13.760] with the with the nhs I think when you look at some of these the issues that we've got at the
[30:13.760 --> 30:20.240] moment based on on aged equipment I've mentioned it in the previous question procurement big tin
[30:20.240 --> 30:25.920] has always been part of a capital uh replacement program and with other pressures on the whole
[30:25.920 --> 30:31.200] estates of making bricks and mortar facilities that needs to be of a certain standard that
[30:31.200 --> 30:35.920] capital replacement money is disappearing to other things there's rack there's
[30:37.520 --> 30:45.280] all kinds of age age aging um hospital estates out there um we're looking at a big ticket items
[30:45.280 --> 30:50.800] like ct scanners and mr they are they will they will they make do for another 12 months is what's
[30:50.800 --> 30:55.200] happening isn't it and and that's what's making making them age but but but as Jeevan said and
[30:55.200 --> 31:02.240] I think we'd all agree in a different model of procurement of commissioning of um of getting the
[31:02.240 --> 31:06.960] best equipment in and then you know that may be a replacement or upgrades every every four five
[31:06.960 --> 31:12.320] six years to ensure they've got the the best the best um equipment in the hospitals then I think
[31:12.320 --> 31:16.560] that's the the sensible approach no I think you're right there Huw as well and I think as well
[31:17.360 --> 31:21.040] it's key that obviously if you get it in the hospitals and the landscape does change and
[31:21.040 --> 31:25.840] obviously you don't want to change too fast with it you've still got that kind of that infrastructure
[31:25.840 --> 31:30.720] that can hold on a little bit longer if it needs to while you transition as well no and and and
[31:30.720 --> 31:36.320] you touched briefly um Jeevan on ai as well um if if it's possible I've got a question um and Sally
[31:36.320 --> 31:42.000] if you're happy to I'll um I'll ask my question um it's following artificial intelligence um and
[31:42.000 --> 31:46.320] obviously this offers significant promise in diagnostics and this is supported by AXREM's
[31:46.320 --> 31:51.680] ai manifesto calling for clear pathways and responsible deployment but the big issue now
[31:51.680 --> 31:56.960] is getting that trusts are finding it difficult to budget and upscale at pace so my kind of main
[31:56.960 --> 32:03.360] point for this is what can AXREM do to kind of change mindsets for this to help this along
[32:03.360 --> 32:08.080] I'm just gonna say I think I think adoption is that and perception of ai in healthcare is a
[32:08.080 --> 32:13.520] little bit more sensitive if you look at ai in any other environment you talk in you know maps
[32:13.520 --> 32:22.480] rooting um the way that we are dictation and uh of meetings um aviation ai is adopted a lot easier
[32:22.480 --> 32:29.600] in those areas so it's it's enabling lifestyles and life to change um supported by ai in those
[32:29.600 --> 32:32.240] in those different industries when it comes to healthcare there's a big
[32:33.600 --> 32:39.360] reluctance or or sensitivity or or and I think that's what we need to be looking at is breaking
[32:39.360 --> 32:44.720] those barriers we're seeing some big changes um globally in the way that ai is applied and
[32:44.720 --> 32:52.400] and different um different countries adoption um we seem to be a lot more sensitive uh and um
[32:53.600 --> 32:57.680] resistant to that change in the uk and I think as AXREM that's what we need to be targeting
[32:57.680 --> 33:04.720] because there's there's a lot more that ai could be doing but we're just not doing it yeah 100
[33:05.040 --> 33:08.880] what what what kind of barriers do you think what's causing that reluctance to kind of adopt
[33:08.880 --> 33:15.760] immediately what do you say in both your opinions I'd say um there's governance there's acceptance
[33:15.760 --> 33:22.000] who gets sued there's all that lovely legal stuff you know there what when when are we going to let
[33:22.000 --> 33:30.240] uh an ai do a full report and allow it and allow it in a dark with flashy lights to do stuff but
[33:30.240 --> 33:36.160] we're allowed to plot the best route for us to get from a to b or to to manage our meetings
[33:36.720 --> 33:42.080] or indeed can we can we ever that's that's another question I think I think Aaron that that's that is
[33:42.080 --> 33:48.960] a really good question so look if we go back a few years that a lot of the oxygen around ai in our
[33:48.960 --> 33:55.680] space our part of the the puzzle was was around reporting right it was the use of ai to help
[33:55.680 --> 34:02.720] drive efficiency and accuracy in in the radiologist role but if we look today at ai
[34:02.720 --> 34:09.440] it's in all other many other elements of the patient pathway you know whether that's in
[34:10.160 --> 34:17.360] intelligent scheduling of patient appointments or whether it's in the way we organize in fact we
[34:17.360 --> 34:23.520] have ai that will write the software in the future so you know how do we make software more energy
[34:23.520 --> 34:29.120] efficient through the way we choose to code you know there's lots and lots of things that ai can
[34:29.120 --> 34:38.800] do and and I think the challenge for me is this balance between uh the technology and the rate of
[34:38.800 --> 34:45.600] change and and using that technology and on the other side patient safety piece you know the
[34:45.600 --> 34:53.360] government right and if you ever use chat gpt or copilot or any of these other good things to
[34:53.680 --> 34:58.320] to do something you often have to check your work because you know it will come out and it
[34:58.320 --> 35:05.440] it's some mostly right but it's often it's often enough it's not right at all and you wouldn't
[35:05.440 --> 35:14.800] trust you wouldn't trust a an ai driven surgical robot to operate on you if there was any chance
[35:14.800 --> 35:22.720] that it could get right so um and and I think when you look then at the you know the governments and
[35:22.720 --> 35:29.120] regional approach to ai the eu's brought in the ai act and and that's a very clear piece of
[35:29.120 --> 35:36.560] legislation um the uk i think has been a little bit less defined in in how it's going to do that
[35:36.560 --> 35:43.280] and then you see china you know putting in massive resources into ai development and the united
[35:43.280 --> 35:51.360] states actually worried about how their role in terms of the slowdown or the slowing down impact
[35:51.680 --> 35:56.480] of regulation and governance versus driving the leadership race on ai
[35:57.600 --> 36:02.880] and so I don't know that there's any easy answers because when it comes to health care we want it
[36:02.880 --> 36:10.000] to be safe we want it to be reliable we want it to be 100 correct and so there is some concern
[36:10.000 --> 36:15.600] around all of those things and the use of ai and then at the same time we want speed and
[36:15.600 --> 36:20.880] transformation and innovation and that's a challenge for us as innovators that we have
[36:20.880 --> 36:25.040] to work with government we have to work with the regulators and we have to find that balance and so
[36:25.040 --> 36:32.480] you know for example you can use auto automatic scribe technology to capture this conversation
[36:32.480 --> 36:39.200] and turn it into a set of patient notes and and actually there is theoretically no reason why
[36:39.200 --> 36:44.880] those patient notes couldn't actually do the order comps to request and book in all your appointments
[36:44.880 --> 36:49.920] so if i was seeing you and you were my gp and we had a conversation you said well jibin you need
[36:49.920 --> 36:55.360] probably an ultrasound and an mri we come out of that the notes automatically get produced the
[36:55.360 --> 37:01.520] requests go to the department and the patient the the appointments are booked and it could all
[37:01.520 --> 37:06.400] theoretically be done in the background but it requires us to unbundle a lot of things that
[37:06.400 --> 37:11.840] we've got now and i think that's not easy to do so what we need to do is kind of probably look at
[37:11.840 --> 37:17.120] small wins and consolidate those small wins and hope over the course of time that the bigger
[37:17.120 --> 37:23.120] the bigger picture comes easy and our risk is if we're too strong on the governance piece
[37:23.120 --> 37:29.920] do the innovation as well so there is this balance absolutely that's that's a really good point
[37:29.920 --> 37:35.120] especially around the uh well around the balance as you say making sure that we get it both right
[37:35.120 --> 37:42.400] and not move too fast where where is unsafe that is cool and uh Huw did you have anything
[37:42.400 --> 37:48.240] more as well to kind of add to what what jibin's mentioned no i think i think it's all to do with
[37:48.240 --> 37:53.680] adoption isn't it as i said and and and governance we we just need if we go in to do it we just need
[37:53.680 --> 37:59.040] to get on and do it i think absolutely i get the point with the sensitivity of it but when you see
[37:59.040 --> 38:04.160] that there are some kind of cancer reports or suspected cancer reports that are waiting for
[38:04.160 --> 38:12.000] a long time to be reported um i'm just gonna say i'm gonna say something Huw um so recently um i've
[38:12.000 --> 38:19.600] been involved in a huge patient and healthcare leaders survey and it's global and one of the
[38:19.600 --> 38:24.080] interesting findings so there was a lot of it was about ai and one of the really interesting
[38:24.080 --> 38:30.000] findings was who you know when you talk to a patient a member of the public about ai there's
[38:30.080 --> 38:37.760] this hierarchy of trust about who they choose to trust around ai and who they choose not to trust
[38:37.760 --> 38:44.000] and interestingly enough they don't the patients don't necessarily trust governments and they
[38:44.000 --> 38:51.040] don't necessarily trust vendors like us the people they do trust are the clinicians the doctors and
[38:51.040 --> 38:56.240] the nurses that deal with them so i think part of if we want to drive this so this is to your point
[38:56.240 --> 39:02.880] if you really want to drive this part of our role as industry is to help educate the doctors
[39:02.880 --> 39:08.880] and the other clinicians in what that ai transformation will do for them and let
[39:08.880 --> 39:15.280] them be the voice of driving the trust in ai to the patient community if we try to force it
[39:15.280 --> 39:21.760] without doing that i think the problem is we'll just be met with a huge barrier of um not being
[39:21.760 --> 39:26.400] allowed to go through walk through the gate because people don't believe it so so i think
[39:26.400 --> 39:32.160] that's the challenge we have is when i'm not sure we're engaged in that you know we're going around
[39:32.160 --> 39:36.400] saying we'll trust the ai it's good we've tested it and so on actually what we need to do is not
[39:36.400 --> 39:40.800] convince the public and the government we need to trust we need to convince the clinicians because
[39:40.800 --> 39:46.160] they're the ones that are seen as the the voice of trust within the healthcare community yeah and
[39:46.160 --> 39:50.960] just to say as Axra and we are working with a number of the societies and world colleges on ai
[39:50.960 --> 39:58.160] so we've had lots of engagement with the rcr and the society and college and the bir and we've also
[39:58.160 --> 40:02.880] got an ai think tank where we bring all the external stakeholders together to try and align
[40:02.880 --> 40:10.080] our kind of messaging and thoughts on ai as well i i actually really love what you've kind of said
[40:10.080 --> 40:16.320] there as well juvan because i think there's a hidden benefit to really kind of letting the
[40:16.400 --> 40:22.080] clinicians letting the trusted advisors for the patient kind of be that barrier be that source of
[40:22.080 --> 40:27.120] what's best because it aligns with their own benefits you know if they get an ai piece that
[40:27.120 --> 40:30.960] comes in and makes their life easier it's less burnout and all of a sudden they're going to
[40:30.960 --> 40:35.280] advocate because this is going to make their life a lot easier it's more accurate which in turn makes
[40:35.280 --> 40:39.520] it faster reporting and in turn benefits the patient so there's definitely i think a common
[40:39.520 --> 40:44.480] alignment of goals with that so yeah and i think you're right with the trust being low in the
[40:44.480 --> 40:49.680] government and vendors i think that that sanity check for the patient because again you know
[40:50.480 --> 40:55.360] some of these ai stuff maybe like i know chest x-raying or stuff you know normal people might
[40:55.360 --> 41:00.320] not understand exactly how it's done but certainly giving it to somebody who deals with this and has
[41:00.320 --> 41:04.960] trained for this on a regular basis to make that informed decision and then use it themselves it's
[41:04.960 --> 41:08.720] definitely proof of the pudding and i think yeah it's definitely a hidden benefit that i think is
[41:09.360 --> 41:14.800] going to make absolute amounts i think yeah and i think i don't you know i felt bad because i
[41:14.800 --> 41:22.960] pushed back against my friend Huw but um yeah but i agree i agree with Huw i agree with you my my
[41:22.960 --> 41:30.720] my problem is we're we're kind of we're pushing on an open door inside industry we we already know
[41:30.720 --> 41:35.680] that it's going to be good and it's going to change but we have to take people up along with
[41:35.680 --> 41:42.640] us and i don't know that we're always doing that in a great way and and perhaps you don't need to
[41:42.640 --> 41:47.120] do it or there's a different way of doing it in other countries which is why we see other
[41:47.840 --> 41:54.000] geographies adopt ai more easily um yeah yeah you know because we see different
[41:54.960 --> 42:01.760] a different pace of adoption of ai technologies uh i think the nhs has got a unique um challenge
[42:01.760 --> 42:08.800] which is it's not that the nhs isn't as good or as any other health system in the world it's just
[42:08.800 --> 42:14.720] that because of the way it's structured right now they've got i think they're facing so many
[42:15.280 --> 42:22.640] challenges on so many fronts the is do they have the space and the time to be able to devote to
[42:22.640 --> 42:29.920] looking at ai properly no absolutely what's our role then what what do we do how do we make them
[42:30.480 --> 42:36.960] you know how do we make it better for them and and Ehren you're 100 right if you want to address
[42:36.960 --> 42:42.880] burnout the only people that can lead that have got to be the people using the technology
[42:42.880 --> 42:48.480] they must want it right absolutely no absolutely but i suppose i suppose one thing we've not
[42:48.480 --> 42:52.560] particularly touched on with this and i just thought i touched on as well while we're on the
[42:52.560 --> 42:58.240] subject of ai is obviously we see an explosion in our personal lives and we are seeing it being
[42:58.240 --> 43:03.680] adopted into the nhs and one of the biggest enablers of this has been the availability
[43:03.680 --> 43:11.200] of the data to train on to kind of build these neural networks but obviously with this advent
[43:11.200 --> 43:16.560] comes the risks around the security and privacy of that personal data and so how do you how do
[43:16.560 --> 43:20.960] you guys think that the industry needs to evolve to deal with the challenge both from the external
[43:20.960 --> 43:25.440] actors so i'm talking about the people trying to brute force and you know extract this data
[43:25.440 --> 43:29.600] but also from responsible use from the ai vendors themselves and that regulation around that
[43:33.600 --> 43:40.320] if you reflect kind of historically on how how a doctor would have got that it's through experience
[43:40.320 --> 43:45.440] so so if we want to have any faith in any kind of ai we've got to enable it to have that experience
[43:45.440 --> 43:52.320] and open up that data so the 10 20 years of seeing patients coming through a
[43:54.800 --> 43:58.800] clinical room is going to give them the experience to point in the right direction and that has to
[43:58.800 --> 44:06.640] happen in the in the ai world the regulation around that then releasing it into the into the wild
[44:08.720 --> 44:14.160] it's it only i think it has to be done if we want to make it successful but it can be done
[44:14.160 --> 44:20.400] through anonymized ways yeah a doctor sitting at a textbook or whatever is never going to have
[44:20.400 --> 44:24.640] patient identifiable information in there but there's going to have examples and i think if we
[44:24.640 --> 44:30.000] want ai to go to do what it needs to needs to do we need to be looking at other technologies of
[44:30.000 --> 44:37.600] anonymization and okay so so so what my my history is there it's not really my history it's it's my
[44:37.680 --> 44:43.120] makeup isn't it or my be or my i'm i being too simplistic and controversial on this on this
[44:43.120 --> 44:51.440] morning i'm not sure i'm not sure i've got an answer to your question it's a difficult question
[44:52.640 --> 44:58.160] but i'll just throw something else in to it and that's the advent or the kind of you know this
[44:58.160 --> 45:05.200] need or desire to move more and more towards personalized medicine and part of it i think
[45:05.200 --> 45:11.200] on the personalized medicine piece is i think there's a risk when we have these ai models
[45:12.560 --> 45:19.200] there's a risk that every we throw everything into the bucket and and one of the challenges
[45:19.200 --> 45:30.320] we have is if you are from a particular you know you have a particular makeup that is is unique
[45:30.320 --> 45:37.040] to you how well does the ai model that's more generalized work for you you know so you know
[45:37.040 --> 45:41.360] if you think about a bell curve of the population it's fine if you're sitting in the middle of that
[45:41.360 --> 45:46.800] bell curve but what happens if you sit at the edges does that ai model still work as efficiently for
[45:46.800 --> 45:53.040] you and i'm thinking about for example if you go to different parts of the world when you're doing
[45:53.040 --> 46:00.800] mammography like breast screening it's dependent on breast density and that varies depending on
[46:00.800 --> 46:06.320] your ethnicity and the age at which you may want to implement a breast screening program
[46:06.320 --> 46:12.240] is therefore driven sometimes by by those factors you know as to when you start the program and
[46:13.200 --> 46:17.920] what it does for that population now if you in a global setting if you have those people
[46:17.920 --> 46:21.840] from all over the world living in lots of different places does the ai model being
[46:21.840 --> 46:27.840] used work for all of them or is there and i think we've got to be careful are there unintended
[46:27.840 --> 46:35.200] consequences of relying on ai that disadvantage certain groups of patients because they're not
[46:35.200 --> 46:40.560] part of that core model and you could also say the same thing about younger ages developing
[46:41.520 --> 46:46.800] pediatrics into adults but the body's changing so so so how does ai track that there's there's
[46:46.880 --> 46:50.960] yeah i think there's a number of areas that we need to get some some comfort from
[46:51.840 --> 46:57.680] really well said absolutely one of the final things in our state of the nation report was
[46:58.240 --> 47:03.440] around cancer diagnosis and treatment and the report shows that performance is improving but
[47:03.440 --> 47:10.560] still falls short of national targets with rising case volumes projected what do you think industry
[47:10.560 --> 47:14.640] can do and what innovations do you think can help improve the situation
[47:17.760 --> 47:23.600] oh we can check the ai initials back in there again some kind of triage form i think that's
[47:23.600 --> 47:29.920] what we've been hinting at quite quite quite a bit you can talk about throughput of of
[47:30.720 --> 47:37.920] equipment but then you're balancing that against patients experience
[47:38.640 --> 47:44.320] we want it to be a factory of throwing a hundred patients through a machine around 60 patients
[47:44.320 --> 47:50.400] through a machine that's that's that's a that's a big old question for for industry do we need to
[47:50.400 --> 47:57.840] turn it around and say how you know what what outcomes do we want to get out rather than
[47:58.720 --> 48:00.240] how faster can we make the beast
[48:02.720 --> 48:10.000] yeah from my perspective look we saw a lot of focus on during covid on community diagnostic
[48:10.000 --> 48:16.000] centers like the cdcs the richards reports etc and now as part of the 10-year plan there's
[48:16.000 --> 48:22.880] discussed about neighborhood health centers and and you know what they're going to do in terms of
[48:22.880 --> 48:30.480] driving early detection prevention and cancer a big part of cancer is also that early detection
[48:30.480 --> 48:36.640] screening prevention picking things up early enough for them not to become bigger problems later on
[48:37.200 --> 48:45.120] and so for a lot of that you need technology the latest technology more accurate technology
[48:45.120 --> 48:51.680] you need efficiency you need it to be working faster you also need it to be in the right place
[48:53.280 --> 49:01.280] so you need it to be where the patients are able to access it so put building a big fancy hospital
[49:01.280 --> 49:07.120] is great but are patients going to make the journey there or are they our certain groups
[49:07.120 --> 49:14.240] because we're talking about equity of of access are we better off putting like high tech products
[49:14.240 --> 49:20.640] rather than lower lower common denominator type technologies into the neighborhood health centers
[49:20.640 --> 49:24.800] because the traditional model has always been something pretty standard in the community
[49:24.800 --> 49:29.920] something very advanced in the hospital and my argument is actually sometimes you want to
[49:29.920 --> 49:35.520] switch that around and so not in every community setting but in some of the community settings have
[49:35.520 --> 49:40.560] the advanced equipment because you still have a chance of being able to see patients who
[49:40.560 --> 49:46.480] wouldn't necessarily come into a hospital so i think there's a lot that we could still do
[49:47.440 --> 49:53.280] it's probably a piece of collab and and discussion between different people because
[49:53.840 --> 49:58.400] that isn't the model that we currently look at and and there may be funding challenges so why we
[49:58.400 --> 50:02.960] choose to do that or not do that and that comes back to the kind of the you know is it is there
[50:02.960 --> 50:10.880] an outcomes-based model is is there a way i think industry has an appetite for having a go we have
[50:10.880 --> 50:17.520] an appetite for taking a bit of a punt a bit of a risk in terms of co-investing being owning part
[50:17.520 --> 50:23.440] of the problem ourselves and i think what what i would say is we're looking for government we're
[50:23.440 --> 50:29.120] looking for the department of health to come along with us hold our hands figuratively speaking
[50:29.120 --> 50:34.320] on that journey and share a bit of risk you know co-own the risk and let's let's do something a bit
[50:34.320 --> 50:39.440] different there is an i don't believe that you will progress if you don't take some chances
[50:39.440 --> 50:46.160] in terms of the model of care and rather than do it all up once all across the system why don't we
[50:46.160 --> 50:49.760] why don't we have a punt on some different models of care and see if they work or not
[50:50.560 --> 50:55.040] yeah i think it's important to add as well that in terms of treatment our radiotherapy special
[50:55.040 --> 51:00.160] focus group have been supporting the work of the all-party parliamentary group for radiotherapy
[51:00.160 --> 51:07.040] and radiotherapy uk to make radiotherapy treatment more accessible to all and i think that's a really
[51:07.040 --> 51:11.520] important point to make and they've done some fantastic work and there has been some investment
[51:11.520 --> 51:18.720] but a lot more is needed in order for patients not to have to travel long distances and sometimes
[51:18.720 --> 51:23.760] that results in them not actually taking the treatment or the correct treatment for their
[51:23.760 --> 51:29.520] cancer and and that's obviously um you know a terrible situation for us to be in in this
[51:29.520 --> 51:34.400] modern day and age but i'm going to now um just change the tone a little bit of this
[51:34.400 --> 51:41.680] uh podcast before we finish off to a quirky question so if you could swap lives with a
[51:41.680 --> 51:46.560] celebrity for a day who would it be and what would you do and i'm actually going to ask
[51:46.560 --> 51:53.040] Ehren this question first oh super uh swap lives with celebrity for a day and what would you do
[51:53.760 --> 52:01.520] i would love to swap lives i think with weird al because i feel like somebody of that kind of
[52:01.520 --> 52:07.440] caliber would be leading such an exciting life behind the scenes when he's leading such an
[52:07.440 --> 52:10.800] exciting life on the screen like most people you think is the opposite right you think you know
[52:10.800 --> 52:14.800] they're very outgoing on the screen they're very like you know recluse i just get the impression
[52:14.800 --> 52:20.720] that for me weird al would just kind of be even more toned up off off screen so i think i think
[52:20.720 --> 52:30.000] if i had to pick it'd be for sure weird al perfect thank you and Jeevan um so Huw earlier on
[52:30.000 --> 52:35.280] referred to the fact that i'm a crusty old relic um so i'm gonna i'm gonna go into i'm gonna go
[52:35.280 --> 52:44.000] into yes the year i um owned an apple computer uh in the late 70s and so way before the time of
[52:44.000 --> 52:51.120] the mac and um the founders were steve jobs and steve wasniak and uh and i would choose steve
[52:51.120 --> 52:57.680] jobs and the reason is he um single-handedly transformed the way we interact with the world
[52:57.680 --> 53:03.920] through the invention of the ipod and then the iphone and you know that is now kind of the
[53:03.920 --> 53:10.400] communication device if you like and all the other smartphones so um and he did it against huge
[53:10.400 --> 53:16.720] resistance because he had a vision in his head and nobody was going to deter him from that vision
[53:16.720 --> 53:22.560] and so what i would want to do and why i want to be that celebrity is we're facing lots of problems
[53:22.560 --> 53:31.440] it would be amazing to have a vision and a singular kind of thought or view of how we'd
[53:31.440 --> 53:36.960] solve it that you could just focus on that and not worry about what the detractors are saying but go
[53:36.960 --> 53:41.280] you know have the conviction to be able to drive that through so i would choose steve jobs
[53:42.320 --> 53:47.280] fantastic and over to you Huw uh i think might be a little bit boring i'd want to be a minor
[53:47.280 --> 53:52.640] celeb i'd really love to and you know i like to like to play in bands and stuff so i would really
[53:52.640 --> 53:58.080] love to be a kind of backing musician in a stadium i don't want to be at the front but i just want to
[53:58.080 --> 54:04.640] get that stadium vibe and close my eyes and get into my own little world and be um maybe a backing
[54:04.640 --> 54:11.760] musician for peter gabriel or someone like that someone who's good um draw draw a crowd and have
[54:11.760 --> 54:16.320] music that i really really like but then i just want to top that with saying one one final thing
[54:16.320 --> 54:21.040] is that on this zoom call year we've got it's split into four ways and i just think this
[54:21.040 --> 54:26.720] this the setup here of aaron sally jeevan this would be a really blooming good boy band
[54:27.360 --> 54:34.960] or other other band i could see i could see more of us on stage somewhere jeevan cutting some shapes
[54:35.520 --> 54:43.600] um Ehren on on on vocals uh sally sally do some air guitar i think um so i think this this would
[54:43.600 --> 54:50.400] be a really good um little group there of um of some kind of i was gonna say i do not i do not
[54:50.400 --> 54:55.200] have any musical talent at all so probably the tambourine is as far as i go uh
[54:56.720 --> 55:02.400] musical talent the electric triangle as a backing singer because i would definitely
[55:02.400 --> 55:08.400] clear whatever venue you were performing in but i have always mentioned about i'd love to do a
[55:08.400 --> 55:12.880] axe rems got talent at some point in the future i think that would be because i know we've got
[55:12.880 --> 55:18.960] lots of members with lots of talent so that's something that i may incorporate into a future
[55:18.960 --> 55:26.000] event but i think we've all found out today a lot more about the matters and insights covered in
[55:26.000 --> 55:30.640] the state of the nation report and i would urge all of our listeners to have a read of that which
[55:30.640 --> 55:36.400] is now going to become an annual report that we update each year and when we wrote it last year
[55:36.400 --> 55:40.480] i don't think any of us expected some of the changes that we've seen such as the
[55:41.120 --> 55:46.720] abolition of nhs england so you know i i think that this is going to be a really interesting
[55:46.720 --> 55:52.800] report where year on year we can build some really um insightful data so i'd like to say
[55:52.800 --> 55:58.000] a big thank you to Jeevan Gunaratnam and Huw shurmer for joining us and to Ehren for being
[55:58.000 --> 56:03.280] a fabulous co-host um with me today and thank you to all of our listeners
[56:04.160 --> 56:08.400] if you have enjoyed today's podcast don't forget to hit subscribe or feel free to share the
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