Founders Under Pressure PART #2: Fair Hiring vs. Founder Instinct with Dom Finetti

In this episode of The Un-Traditional Entrepreneur, host Juming Delmas sits down with Dom Finetti, founder of Parrot, a SaaS platform designed to make the hiring process more fair, skills-based, and transparent.

The conversation explores one of the most difficult realities founders face: when you are building a company, should you hire the person you know and trust, or should every candidate be judged through the same merit-based process?

Dom explains how Parrot aims to reduce bias in hiring by anonymizing candidate information and using AI to evaluate skills, experience, and qualifications. His argument is that traditional hiring often rewards personal connections, referrals, and familiarity, leaving other qualified candidates at a disadvantage before they ever get a fair shot.

Juming pushes back from the founder’s perspective, arguing that business owners often hire people they know because familiarity, reliability, and trust matter when the pressure is real. If a founder has worked with someone before and knows how they perform, is it wrong to choose that person over a stranger with a strong resume?

The discussion moves into the limits of resumes, interviews, and judgment. A resume may get someone in the room, but personality, traits, work ethic, communication style, and character often determine whether they are actually the right fit. The challenge is figuring out how to evaluate those qualities fairly when you do not already know the person.

Juming and Dom also debate how past experiences shape hiring decisions. If a business owner was burned by a previous employee, is it unfair to be cautious when a new candidate reminds them of that situation? Or is that simply part of the judgment founders are forced to make?

This episode raises important questions for entrepreneurs, founders, hiring managers, and job seekers about fairness, bias, AI, trust, referrals, resumes, and the human side of hiring.

Listen to The Un-Traditional Entrepreneur on all major podcast platforms.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

The few that are are getting hired because of who they know and not because of what they can do, how much money they can make.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

I was just gonna say that. I was gonna like to be fair, that would make sense though. Is that wrong to hire somebody for because you know them personally?

SPEAKER_00 0:17

That's a great question. And and the short answer is it's not wrong with an asterisk. People are absolutely ass.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

If I'm gonna hire somebody, I would probably hire somebody that I know before somebody I don't know. Why? Because I know what to expect from this person. When you're hiring candidates for a position, even at my company, people come in and they talk a good game. All of a sudden, everybody has some type of family emergency. Sorry, I know it's an asshole move to say, but there's always some bullshit going on within the first 90 days. Even if a person is good at doing the job, what if they're not always there? Damn that, dumb. I got a question. Damn that. I don't mean to cut you off, but why are you so passionate about it?

SPEAKER_00 0:57

It's not about me. It's not about me. The why is because it's important to make a difference and to help people pay their bills, to help people, you know, live a life of security. That's why.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

Do you think I'm being fair to you right now? Just the whole show today.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Oh, I mean, I think this is what you do. I think this is what you do. That's my answer.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Welcome to the other side of motivation. Hey everybody, and welcome back to the Untraditional Entrepreneur Podcast. I'm your host, Jabine Delmis, and you guys know what we do on this show. We sit down with founders and all kinds of entrepreneurs from all walks of life, and we sit down and troll the hell out of them on what they do with their business. Today we have a special guest by the name of Dom Finetti. He is basically the founder of a SaaS platform that he's working on developing, which is basically the world's most fair hiring platform. Gonna be a very interesting conversation, so really interested to see what that's gonna look like as far as his perspective on the hiring process. What are we looking at now, and then what the hiring process may look like in the future. Stay tuned, you guys know how we do. I'm your host, Jabini Dumblings. You guys can always find us on all major platforms, our podcast. You can also find our podcast video on YouTube, and you can also find most of our up-to-date episodes and news releases on our website at utepodcast.com. I'm your host, Jabini Dumblings, and thank you guys for joining. And welcome to the other side of motivation. Let's dive in. Alrighty, dum dum dum, dum dum dum dum. What's up? Hey, how you doing? Good, good, good.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Where are you calling in from? Uh, I'm based in Houston, Texas. Uh, and uh uh it's so it's an hour earlier than where you are, I believe. Correct. Wait, you in Houston?

SPEAKER_02 3:05

Yeah, I'm in Houston, yeah, yeah. Oh, damn. Is the traffic really as bad as they say it is out there?

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Well, it's it's pretty bad. I, you know, I I uh I've lived in LA too, so I know some of the like I know I know the worst in the country. I don't know if it's worse than LA, but it it fights for it. Um it's yeah, I heard I heard it's pretty bad. It's just a lot of people moving here all the time. Um, infrastructure's not great. There's like it seems like there's too many highways, but they're always full. Um and I avoid driving downtown like the plague. I uh I hate it, you know. Why is that too much traffic? It's a lot of one-way streets and a lot of people they don't know how to drive very well. And I don't know if this is true, but I heard uh uh I heard this this sort of rumor from someone that lives here that apparently a couple years ago there was a a law that was either put in place or taken away that basically made all the traffic lights uh like or not traffic lights, but all all the tr all the uh the traffic cameras uh like get turned off. That's what I heard. You're person. And so people run red lights all the time and people get pick uh pulled over quite a bit. Unless you drive. Do you run red lights? I I haven't in a long time. If if I have, it was years ago. But I I really try to avoid it. I uh what I find is is after being here for about 11 years in Texas, uh wow, it's uh you know but if as long as uh as long as you uh have an F-150, then you can do whatever you want on the road, is what I find. Really? Why is that? Well I don't know why, but it seems like giant pickup trucks and like like cars you would see like in a lot, you know, or a construction team, they just get out of jail free, it seems like uh out here.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

So I would make it in Houston. I got two big trucks.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Oh, you'll probably be fine.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

Yes, I got I got a Chevy and a uh GMC. I got two big trucks. Hey, I do you know, I I can't do the Houston traffic, I can't do no city with like major traffic. That's why I like where I stay at, because like you know, I can get anywhere I want to get to around town in Tallahassee in 20 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Oh, see that's 20 minutes is short here in Houston. It's you can drive anywhere. Yeah, you can you can drive 45 minutes one direction in Houston, and you're still just uh barely in Houston.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

45 So what's the average what's the average wait time on you know in in Houston traffic?

SPEAKER_00 5:27

So I I I have to drive across town every Thursday uh night, so right in the peak traffic time. And I gotta drive to I'm on the east side of Houston, I gotta go to the west side in an area called Memorial City. And without traffic, that would be probably 23-minute drive across town. But with regular traffic, that's on a regular day 45 minutes to an hour and 15. Like it's it's like yeah, it's like two to three times the the time it would take without traffic.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

I'm curious. Why don't why don't y'all just get the hell out of Houston? I don't understand people in Houston, Dallas, and LA. If the traffic is so damn bad, why not just get the hell out? Because my mind says I could not do that shit. No, no, I hear you.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Yeah, I mean, I'll tell you right now that we're you know, we're we're in Texas mostly because I I'm married and and my my my wife's from here, and so she's a Texas girl, and um her family's out here. My family's in California, so like I would love to get back there to be honest. Um the traffic's worse. It it is, but the public transit's way better. Oh, okay. Like I can like you could because I I'm from the Bay Area, and so you can go anywhere in the Bay Area using what's called BART, which is like basically above ground subway system, and you can go across the Bay Area, probably hour 45 minutes to almost two hours of driving. Um, you can do that literally just taking public transit. And it's just like it's and it's a straight shot, uh like up the highway, and it's it's often faster than the cars, and it's more reliable because it's on a schedule, you know. And so when I was younger, I would do that sometimes, like when I was interning in college and stuff. I would just, I live in San Jose and I would take BART, you know, 45 minutes or something to the to Oakland, you know, it would be like $10 to go all the way.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

And that to me, that would be worth it. Like, like I and I I've been to LA a couple times, and I used to think I used to want to live out there shit. Changed my goddamn mind. All the poverty out there, I think, you know, I for me, it's just it would be ideal for like what I do for my career, but not necessarily like to be fair, hell no.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Yeah, I'm not live out there. I like LA as a place, but there's plenty of things to be annoyed about. Um, and so I also have this idea in my head where it's like, if I ever actually move there again and was there for more than like six months, I could see myself getting sick of it. Like, there's there's totally a chance.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

So yeah, I can see. I don't even like the houses out there. Like, so the except unless you like got this big ass mansion out in LA, I think the driveways are ridiculously small. It's like you're like on the side of the house, like trying to squeeze in and park in the back and shit. It's like, what the hell is going on? I could not uh like for me, shit gotta be convenient for where I where I'm wherever I'm living. I gotta be able to park okay. I gotta be able to drive okay. I gotta get to point A to point B and be fine. I hate driving. I do not like being on a damn road.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

I like I I work full-time remote, and so uh uh I don't like it. Praise the Lord. You know, I I don't like driving either. Um that's why I I just drive to that one place once a week on Thursdays. And yeah, beyond that, I'll I'll I'll drive, you know, 10, 15 minute radius tops before I gotta come home because I I hate it. So I I I probably put you know, you know, effectively 20 to 25 miles tops on my car every week. You know, on a bad on a regular week.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

I barely use my regular week. Okay, okay, yeah. So you're gonna your car going out last. Yeah, yeah. All right, so let's let's dive into the topic of conversation because I know most people are here for the topic of conversation. Um, you run a found you run a business, you're working on, I'm not sure if you're working, if it's completed on this platform called Parrot. Progress. In progress. Tell us about this parrot, this parrot platform that you're working on.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

So so I'll I'll start with with just the you know simple idea of of what it does, and then we can go into to history or my why if you want. Uh, but to start, basically, like you said, it's a it's a a SaaS uh platform. Um, it's um it's one of I think a number of hiring platforms that are out there. So in that way, it's it's not new because there's new hiring sites popping up all the time. I think because a lot of the world knows that the hiring market is is a big mess, you know, and it's getting, it seems to be getting worse as time goes on. But I think either everybody has different ideas of how to fix it or or they don't really try to fix it and they just want to be a part of the trends, you know? And so the reason I decided to build something, uh, beyond the fact that, you know, I I being someone without a big technical background, I, you know, I got really into to like, you know, vibe coding in the last year. So I can now code using Claude and stuff. That's opened up doors for me. With that uh skill set coupled with what I've been seeing online about um just job market being rough, it started to make me think like, why hasn't there been a uh a job platform out there that is trying to make things better for candidates and for employers, and not just one or the other, and not just try to fix like one tiny thing? Like, why, like there's there's a bunch of problems with with with the way hiring happens, at least in America now. And so my goal with Prairet is to try to have the world's most fair uh uh platform, fair for candidates, fair for employers, you know, and hopefully get back to a place that I think we were at decades ago where people got hired based upon merit, and that's it.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

Well, I'm gonna give you some uh data real quick and you can kind of tell me what you think it is. And I guess this falls into your your platform that you're working on. It says according to the data from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, 2023, there was over three million jobs created in 2024, there were over 2.2 million jobs created. Yeah. In 2025, 584,000 jobs.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

I mean, what you're telling me, actually, I was kind of worried that your data was gonna make me uh surprised, but it does not. It does not. Um, so no. What I would say is that lines up exactly with how so many people are feeling right now.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

And that's a major jump, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:35

Yeah, it's it's crazy. And and you know, I'm not gonna get into the in into the politics of it. You know, I'm I I'm not gonna pretend to be an economist. I don't, I don't really, I can't tell you exactly why we are experiencing these drops in hiring. That's probably gonna come up as I build this platform as I'm gonna have to become a.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

I was gonna say, I think you're gonna need to know that, especially when you're building this platform. You gotta know the data behind that, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:54

But but what I can tell you is just being a candidate myself, being a professional, being active on LinkedIn, and seeing various, various scenarios play out, seeing new people post on LinkedIn every day, um, you know, for lack of a better term, sob stories, you know, and and most of which are they're fair, they're fair to sob about. And this is not me making fun of them. This is, but that's what it is. It's them desperate and sad because they've been out of work for for three, six, nine months plus sometimes. And they swear they're doing everything right. They they've got, you know, a great resume, great portfolio, they've got connections, they're doing all the right stuff, they're going to networking parties, they're emailing, they're cold calling, they're doing whatever they can. And so people are getting overlooked. And I'm starting to see trends over the last few years as to what people are getting overlooked, what what folks are getting overlooked and which ones aren't. And I think there's there's some trends that we can try to address, but then there's some that are just you can't explain. You're just like, you can't believe this person's not hired because they do have everything locked in, you know, you know, career-wise. And so what I have been experiencing personally as someone who over the years has done a lot of contracts. I've I worked for a lot of companies. I've done, I've done contracting, I've done full-time, I've run my own agency, I've done freelance, I've done pretty much everything you could think of to make money in the last 11 years of working full-time. And and one of the most common things I continue to see, and it's growing, is people are getting hired. The the few that are are getting hired because of who they know and not because of what they can do, how much money they can make.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

I was just gonna say that. I was gonna like to be fair, that I mean, but that would make sense though. I think that most jobs, I mean, is that wrong to hire somebody for because you know them personally?

SPEAKER_00 13:38

That's a great question. And and the short answer is it's not wrong with an asterisk.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Or it's not or what does asterisk mean? You gotta help me understand.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

So, what I mean is there's basically uh there's fine print at the bottom uh of this document, this mental document we're talking about. Um which is uh it's it's two things. One, um I think it can't, it it's wrong if it's the only reason somebody gets hired. It should not be the only, it should be supplemental. And two, uh uh a few decades ago, getting hired because you knew somebody, it was really the cherry on top. It was that you could say, Oh, I know a guy, and then you come and you know, or you might say, Oh, the interview went great. I happen to know him, and here's how I know him. Now it it feels like all the stuff in the middle that makes someone qualified is often being skipped. And instead, people are getting handed interviews. This is the way it feels to me. Just a lot of people are getting handed interviews just because they know someone and they're staying and they're skipping wild uh uh hiring scenarios and times. There there are there are people that are hiring for roles right now, and they have four, five, even sometimes more hiring rounds of like interviews. And there are people that are are getting fast tracked past those and are just getting dropped into the final phase, or frankly, just being handed the job basically, because they had a uh a conversation over coffee, and they say, Well, Joe Schmoe, you know, said you'd be great, and I trust him. You know, I I I I would take a bullet for him. So I'm I'll of course, let's let's jump in.

SPEAKER_02 15:11

To be fair here, right? I'm the person that pulls some data and shit, because it's where I like it. You know, it says, you know, so you know, uh, you know, the the question was, you know, you know, why is the job market necessarily why why are you know why is it why are job companies not opening up positions? According to some data from the BL's job report, it says job creation is not collapsing, but the labor market is becoming more selective, slower and less broad-based. Companies are not firing people aggressively, they are becoming more cautious about adding new people.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

So no, that's that's fair. I think here's the here's my my issue with that mentality is I think it is it is uh well well let me rephrase that. I think it's fair to have that mentality, but the problem is they're assuming then, and I guess we're you're connecting the dots to what I was just saying before. So I'm I'm assuming what you're suggesting is companies are thinking in order to hire safer in a in a more uh uh uh careful way, I would rather go to someone that my friend or go to someone that a leader in the company trusts than to just blindly hire somebody. And that's super fair. They might get they might find the right person. Like I might I want to be clear, some people get hired this way are are are good workers, they're not all bad, but I also think that there's a reality where someone just wants to get their friend hired.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

And my thing is even somebody coming into running a business, man, I'm gonna be 100 with you. People are ass. I'm I'm being uh I'm gonna be 100. Like people are absolutely ass. And there, and to me, if I'm if I'm gonna hire somebody, I would probably hire somebody that I know before somebody I don't know. Why? Because I know what to expect from this person. People jump into, you know, when you when you got when you're hiring candidates for a position, even at my company, people come in and they talk a good game. Yeah, everybody talk a good game. You know, they got 30 to 45 minutes to sell you on trying to get this job. I don't know you, I'm only going off of what I what you're telling me on who you are. And so therefore, you like, man, this person was really good. I like what they said. Their resume's tough, they're strong, they seem to be able to do what they say they can do. Sure. You get them in there, man. 30 days, 30, three, three months, three months typically, 90 days. Everything that's on their resume that they said that they can do, they cannot halfway do any of that shit. All of the all of the accolades that they said that they're gonna bring, all of the the the skill sets, the techniques that these candidates say that they're gonna bring to the job, they come to the job, they get the interview, they talk that shit in the interview because they need the job, they need the money, and then when they get the job, they get like a relationship, they get comfortable, and then shit just go left. And it's like, hey, I thought you said you're able to do this. Oh well, I can't do this. And then the other shit you got going on is all of a sudden everybody has some type of family emergency. Sorry, I know it's an asshole move to say, but there's always some bullshit going on within the first 90 days where there's a family emergency, there's uh I planned vacation, uh, something's on with the car, like some shit going on where even if a person is good at doing the job, what if they're not always there? Like, like, and so therefore, when you think about a company coming in to hire somebody they know, at least if I'm hiring somebody I know, I know what to expect. I know that they can do the job. I also know that they're probably going to be um, they're gonna be a certain type of way, but that's something that I can tolerate. I would rather hire somebody I know I can tolerate than hire somebody I don't know that I can tolerate until I find out that I can't tolerate that.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Totally. So, so you you covered a lot there. Let me try to address different things. So for starters, um, I want to be clear that the goal of Parrot is to make it more fair for everybody during the hiring process. This is not Parrot is not promising that the person they hire is going to be the perfect employee. It's about making the experience fair. It's about the job hiring experience. Yes, to actually like get an equal shot at like getting in front of someone like this and having a conversation in order to get them an interview.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

Let's me and you talking then real quick, because I like the pair. We can we can base this on a scenario, okay? Sure. You and I, we work at we work, we share a business together. Okay. Let's just say we share a business. We could just say a tech company that focuses on uh you know enhancing iPhones, whatever the case is. We're looking to bring on a marketing person, right? You know a guy who does a phenomenal job at marketing, social media, his skill sets are there, you know. Then there's a guy on paper that looks really well. You like his paperwork looks well, but you know your guy can do the job. You know your guy, your guy's paperwork probably isn't as extensive as this guy. If we're having a conversation, you and I, and we're like, you know, this guy's this guy on paper looks great. He looks like the ideal candidate, but we know you but we know that your guy can do it. Which which would you say that we should go with?

SPEAKER_00 20:18

I would say they both should get an interview. That's what I'd say.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

Okay. And and the thing is anybody can get an interview. But also, I don't I don't I don't want to I don't want to waste time though. I like can we get well and again I think they both should get an interview. I agree. They both should get an interview. And let's just say they both speak a good game.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Let's just say they both talk a good game, then what then it the difference here is look, it's never gonna be perfect, and there's gonna be always be somebody who complains that they didn't get hired. So I can't fix that. No one can fix that because everybody's right because everybody needs a job, right? But but if you create an experience where both candidates had the exact same experience down the pipeline for for getting interviews, for being considered, and the you know, and the one thing that that that candidate B does not know is that candidate A happens to know someone internally, but every other bit of the experience was the same, suddenly that referral doesn't become so annoying and and toxic for for candidate B. Because they still feel like, well, I mean shit, they they gave me all the all the interviews, they they considered me, they you know, they they gave me a chance. That's what I'm trying to get people is give them a chance.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

And and I I I I go but a chance isn't guaranteed a job. It's just a guarantee.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

So you're guaranteeing you're guaranteeing interviews. I'm I'm I'm not even guaranteeing them, I'm guaranteeing an equal chance.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

Okay. If okay, so the equal chance. How would you measure that it was equal? Because if you and I are getting ready to hire somebody and we got uh candidate A, candidate B coming to work for our technology company. Tech company, and you know that this guy is good with the marketing, and these guys both did phenomenal in an interview. How would how would how would candidate B who looks good on paper know that we're giving him a fair chance?

SPEAKER_00 22:15

In this scenario, they're using my platform.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

Correct.

unknown 22:18

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

Right. Let's just say they're using your platform. Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

So the way parent will work in theory, I'm still testing it, but in the way it will work is instead of something like LinkedIn, where you create a profile, you have your name, your your your photo, you have various interests, uh, you have where you went to school, you have like stuff that's that's that's you know a digital resume. Right, but it's it's my point is it's far beyond simply where you worked, right? And how long worked. Parrot would allow you instead of doing and well, it's not allow you, but what it what it would tell you to do is instead of uploading all that extra stuff, you just put in where you've worked and how and how long you've had you you worked there, or and what your your your your your best skills are. That's that's it. And it doesn't have your name, doesn't have your face, doesn't have you know, it doesn't suggest your age, doesn't have anything that's personal information-wise. It's essentially anonymous beyond on paper what it says you can bring to the company from a skill perspective. That information gets fed into Parrot, AI takes a look at it and actually uh it it basically scans it against a rubric that's approved by the the uh employer. And basically, if the score, uh well, actually everything is scored, but the top candidates are selected by the bait the by the basis of the score of what AI says about the candidate. And and on top of the skills and the experience that it's scanning, the uh the employer would also create a like a couple questions that they would answer.

SPEAKER_02 23:48

So my thing is the first thing is sorry, the the this parrot is already sounding a lot for me. Even so I'm coming as an employer, right? That's correct. This is a lot. Why would I why would I why would I sign up for parrot?

SPEAKER_00 24:01

Because it's so how do I say this?

SPEAKER_02 24:09

You could do this, yeah. You could do this. Come on, Dom. You could do this.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

I got it. I'm trying to think where where to go next. Because it shouldn't matter to companies how they're perceived. They don't care. We want to know can somebody do the job? Totally. And I think there's gonna be science behind what Parrot is proving to make to show that just because you know Joe Schmoe and some guy promises they'll be great, there can be data that proves that this other guy is as good if not better.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

But why would I sign up? Who cares? For me, I I gotta thought I gotta sign up for this platform to make sure that I'm hiring fairly when I'm just like, you know what? Because there's tons of things. Is it a crime to not always hire fairly? Sometimes it's just it when it sometimes it does make sense to you.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

I look, I I can't control every company. This this platform I don't I don't think will be for everybody. I don't think of course, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

Like it'll be it'll be for people who are probably more willing to want to, you know, test out the the product, who are more advocates in that, so finding more businesses who are really heavy on hiring, fair hiring process.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

About sustainability and making it in the world, being progressive.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

I can see that. But then like at the end of the day, when when typically when a company is looking to hire somebody, like if I'm looking to hire somebody for my company, I'm like, hey guys, we need it, we need a video editor. Right now, we need an AC. We just lost XY and Z. We need to, we need to, you know, XYZ. Like the bit like my biggest focus isn't, but we want to make sure that we're hiring fairly because sometimes urgency kind of takes place.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

Well, I would like to I would argue that it's not it right now, it's not sometimes. It's most of the time. Most of the time people don't care. And most of the time people don't care about what? Uh about making it fair. And it and I think it is less because I think it's l, I think, yes, money's a part of it, but I think it's also because nobody has stepped up to try to fix the problem.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

And I don't think it's a bad thing to what you're doing. I just don't think that nobody like I like, even for me, I don't care. Like, can somebody do the job? Like, is it fair that I didn't hire X, Y, and Z because of X over X, Y, and Z? No. But I don't care. I I I went off of a judgment that I felt like this person made the most sense. Or I know how this person operates. I know this person works. And this person might may have been good, but to be fair, it's like one of them things where people say, like, you know, one bad apple spoils a bunch, right? So many people have burned jobs. And listen, and you see what this data shows that companies are hiring slower, like they're hesitating, they're hesitating for a reason. And that hesitation probably has a lot to do with being burned by employees who come on paper and say, Hey, I can do the job, and then end up not doing as good as they say that they can do on paper and in the interview. It could be.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

We don't know for sure of that, right? We don't know for sure.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

I could be. Wait, what do we don't know for sure?

SPEAKER_00 27:11

Well, you just said you you said you said the the the reason that they're they're slowing down is probably because the candidates are are not are not pulling their weight with after they're right, probably, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

We we could we could assume that that's probably one of the I think it it's more I think it's one of them.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

I think I think there's also potentially, and I am and I again I I admit it, I I have to probably you know learn the data more, but I there's probably I would guess there's data that also says that companies are nervous to keep hiring like the way they have been because layoffs are happening so often right now. And they are and and I think it's up for debate as to why companies are are are jumping into layoffs. Some of them it feels like they jump in really quick and they they don't look at other solutions, they just think people are exp human beings are expendable. And I think that I and I think that what you the the mentality you're suggesting of I don't care. I don't I all I care about is getting is getting someone I think will do the job. Can we get the get the job done? Yeah, can we get the job done?

SPEAKER_02 28:09

But I I also think that we that that your your your uh suggestion that simply getting a guy you know is going to be the right guy isn't I don't think that's necessarily I don't think I and I and I agree okay so here's what I'm gonna say this here one you know that hiring is a very expensive process hiring people is an expensive process. So you want to make sure you hire right. So that that like that's the that's the biggest thing. If business owners and entrepreneurs and companies are protecting that that cash, that investment, because you don't want to hire the wrong way because you you because you because you just want to be fair. You you you also want to be logical, right? So do logics do should should should fair be outbeat logics? I don't think so. I think that there still has to be a logical point.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

I don't think referring someone is logical.

SPEAKER_02 28:59

I don't I I I don't well logic, what I mean by logic is logically thinking, assessing the candidate that you're thinking about bringing onto your company, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Let me let me tell you an example. And and I won't I won't name names because I don't want to throw any companies under the bus. But I I worked at a company in the last in the last year or so where I joined a team and it was and to be clear to your to your point, there was no there was no issues amongst like um um ability on the team. So like they were good workers, right? And so they are the to me, they were they are an example of a team where if there were referrals involved, it worked out, right? And and sometimes sometimes it will. But I don't think that should be, I don't think that's guaranteed, and I and I definitely don't think that it's always how it is. And so here was one of the reasons that it lit a fire under me to make parent happen. I joined this team as a contractor, and I uh it's going well, but then organically as I get to know this team, I start finding out more about their backgrounds, you know, uh where they come from, how they know each other, and I basically discover that I'm pretty sure this is correct. It was like there was like seven or eight people on this core team, and and then there were some people that also worked kind of farther from us, but like we're sort of uh like almost like you know, there were there were another team that worked with us on occasion. Either like something like 90%, or maybe it might have been all of them, because it's been a while since I thought about it, but I basically discovered that effectively a hundred percent of the people on the team got the jobs because of who they knew. What's wrong with that? It's again it's like it's like the asterisk thing. It's like it it doesn't it doesn't have to be wrong, but but but it's it's what the data says.

SPEAKER_02 30:53

But this business, listen, people buy off listen, man, you do the same. People buy on po they people would rather spend their put their money behind something they feel comfortable or someone they feel comfortable behind. Like even when you talk about sales and business, right? Like oftentimes you have two businesses who do the same exact thing, but customers are gonna go to the business that makes them feel that makes them feel people by personality, not necessarily the service of bottom.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

I was trying to give context, okay, but I I I just so I can explain the root of it, right? So, yes, I found out that we're all we we all knew each other somehow. I'll use myself as an example. I found out that uh well, I I knew this going into it. Basically, I I have been on both sides of the spectrum. I have been a guy that was effectively referred, and I've also been a guy that got overlooked by someone who was referred. So I've experienced and and same and and you know, I may take it better than somebody else will, but I've seen people deal with with the trauma of of feeling like they had no chance because some guy got a what it feels like a free ride, and it it sucks. And so here's an example this job that I got, I got because a guy that I worked with a decade ago reacted to a fake a LinkedIn post. And so it showed up in my feed just because he reacted to it. I would never have found the post otherwise because he just happened to react to it. And then I DM'd this girl, and so uh I didn't comment on it, I just DM'd and I said, Hey, uh uh, I thought I saw your post. I'd be interested in in uh in in being considered or something like that. And she responded to my DM and she said, Can you have an interview uh this week? This was like on a Tuesday. And she's like, Can you do it Thursday? And I was like, Oh my god, like that's super fast. And I said, sure, that's amazing. So I get this interview. By the end of the call, uh Thursday, it goes really well. Or rather, yeah, not by the end of the call, but like we have the call, it goes great. Next day hits Friday. In my inbox on Friday, I have a soft offer from her already. It's it's not even a week goes by, which to be true, I'm I'm grateful. I'm grateful and I feel very lucky. But that works. I I I had thought at the time that I got it purely because of my skill. What I found out was not only did I only see that, well, let's see, let me rephrase that. I I knew that I only saw the post because that guy liked it, but I thought that was a spur random occurrence, right? And I hadn't talked to this guy in 10 years, but I found out in the same day when she said when she gave me an offer that that kid that that liked it, he also got an offer from the same role. We'd be on the same team and it would be a joint, it would be a joint role basically. And apparently he noticed that I reacted to her post. And I have a question. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 33:36

You got so you got the job because you didn't you got the you you we know you didn't get the job because of the skill set, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:43

Well you got the job because of I I want to be clear relationship. I am I am someone that I can I can back up my work with with which is fair, but but I I I and you know hopefully they don't get struck down for this, for saying this, but I'm fairly confident that a huge part of the reason why I was given an offer so fast and an interview so fast was because this kid mentioned me to her, and they also he was not just an applicant, they were friends, they used to work together at a different company.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

What's wrong with that?

SPEAKER_00 34:15

It it's not wrong for me.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

It's wrong for it's wrong for the next one. Why is that why is that your problem? That that and you know what's crazy? It's because I'm a black man with dreads, and I I know that I was discriminated against with companies. It is what it is, is life, it's business, it is what it is. Like, do is it fair? No, life isn't fair, and I'm not being a dick about it, but like life is not fair, and I would say that. My my my my fear though is if you decide, hey, I'm gonna do this application pair, whatever the case is, and we're like, hey, you know, this is an opportunity to create fair, fair job opportunities for people to cross the platforms. One companies gotta sign up for this platform, so there's no requirement. So most companies who's gonna sign up who are gonna already be advocating for the same process that you're doing. But what if what if most of the candidates who come from your platform are have a high termination ratio?

SPEAKER_00 35:17

Well, that's you know, I thought that's interesting. I I would say how do how do how do uh hiring managers find that out otherwise, right? It's like two ways, right? It's like it's if your resume has any big gaps, and then two, if there's a uh uh a background check, right? And you and they go in, they connect with their past employers and they find out. To me, it's no different than any other job hiring class uh job job hiring uh uh process. They're gonna have to have those same checks when they submit their their years.

SPEAKER_02 35:46

So then why do I need Parrot?

SPEAKER_00 35:49

Because it eliminates other concerns.

SPEAKER_02 35:52

It eliminates concerns. Well, my thing is if I'm like, damn, if if I'm with if I'm with a buddy and we buddies and whatever the case, I'm like, bruh, every time I hire somebody from this parrot company, I'm trying to be fair, but every time I hire somebody here, I'm always ending up terminating them within the next six months.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

So how do you prepare for those?

SPEAKER_02 36:08

That conversation.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

How about the fact that on LinkedIn there are jobs every day that are getting 10 like you know, thousands of applications? There's so many.

SPEAKER_02 36:16

That is true, but they're not basing it on fair opportunities. It's like it is what it is.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

I'm actually pivoting a little bit because Parrot can solve other things. Some of these sites like LinkedIn or Indeed or whatever, the more the more popular ones, they are getting hit with so many applicants, many majority of which are probably bad applicants. They just they're just so desperate to get hired, they're just sending in an application. These employers have to go through those applications somehow. And it's a lot of work, it's a lot of work. And having a platform like Parrot that is looking at other things and that is using AI. What else is what else is it looking at? I'm saying that they're focusing on only very specific things. Like they're they're focusing only on like how does how does your job experience and skills match this role? It's not looking at cover letters necessarily, it's it's also it's also looking at these questions that they're gonna submit, either video or written responses to, and it's gonna analyze those. And to keep it and to keep it fair, still, if you do a video, it's gonna store your video in the cloud. You're the employer's not gonna see the face of the person and it's gonna translate the video response into text only. This is to help people that maybe are not as good at writing and you know, and and they feel more comfortable talking about their skills and their experience, and vice versa. You don't have to do a video if you're not comfortable being on camera. You can just send in the information if you want to write it. The point is to get everybody on the same playing field until the interview process, and then that's when it becomes a truly level playing field because AI has gone through all the work, it's decided what it believes is the best candidates for you, then the employer shortlists them, and only when all that's done and they're ready to give them an interview, and actually only after they send them the interview request and it's been accepted, only then does it show the person's face and name.

SPEAKER_02 37:58

But see, the thing is, I was always told if you got to explain that to us, if you have to explain that, is it a good product?

SPEAKER_00 38:06

Well, I mean, I'm still building the thing, you know. I I look I'm I'm a one-man person. I'm a one-man shape.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

Because it's it's right, it's a short list at it's a short list as application, correct?

SPEAKER_00 38:19

Yeah, yeah. I mean to to me that what you're describing is uh that's more of a me problem. That's not a problem.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

You know, it's if you look at my site, which it's it's it's the the platform is not public yet, technically, but the site exists and you can and I and I have a video on that way.

SPEAKER_02 38:34

Damn that, dumb. I got a question. Damn that. I don't mean to cut you off, but why are you so passionate about it? Like, what makes you so passionate about various opportunities for individuals? And then it's really hard, one, to determine if a company's being fair during the hiring process. That's their prerogative. They they should they can because there are people who argue that I can't I should still be able to hire who I want to hire just because I just like this person better. They might not do a better job, but culturally they might be great. You like that that could be considered fair.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

Okay. So do you know you you talked about being uh uh African American. Uh uh obviously I'm sure you know this. That like some people consider DEI to be the fair thing to do, and some people think it actually makes it less fair, right? You know, you know, you know about this, right? Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

So yeah, I do. We do buy DEI. Okay, sure.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

So I I I'm gonna have trouble convincing the guy that's against DEI because I'm I'm I'm for DEI. And you know, just because one guy or one company decides to deprioritize it doesn't mean it's not important. And so there are plenty of companies out there that I agree that there are plenty of companies out there that have decided that that that thinking about DEI and everything they do, and it could be internally, it could be in the way they hire, it could be in the way they do business with clients, everything, they they make that a priority. In the same way, I I that's that's how I feel about Parrot about this hiring problem, is is I just care. And I I see tons and tons of stories from people all the time, from people that are saying, you know, I'm I've I've been out of work for for months, and they list all the things they've done, and on paper, it sounds like all the right stuff. And there's no one jumping into the comments saying, I hired you two years ago and you were terrible. And stop lying, you know, you're you're manipulating the the you know everybody, and like like like there's sure there's some people, there's there's there's some bad eggs that you know in in the workforce, but there's plenty of there's a lot of bad eggs in the workforce, to be fair. Plenty of good that are also getting shafted, that are getting totally shafted. And so I'm all I'm trying to do is create an option for the companies that care to invest in that and for candidates to actually have a little bit of wind underneath their wings, to feel like wow, someone's trying to make a difference, someone's trying to to to doing something about it. Because right now it feels like nobody's doing anything about it, and that's wrong. It's it's just wrong.

SPEAKER_02 41:06

And Parrot is doing something bad. And and and uh let me uh go back for a second. I like what you're doing. I'm just trying to say if I'm coming into it, you know, why would I like I for me? I you know, it's my company, it's my culture, it's my viewpoint on what because like the you know, every every business would love to have a Superman in their company. Like, ah, this person is everything I need. They have the perfect skill set, they have the perfect experience, they have the perfect attitude, they fit into the culture that like there's like this package idea that the entrepreneurs think about when they're hiring candidates. And oftentimes we know that they're not gonna be all of these things, just like dating. Your relation, your partner's not gonna be all of these things. There's some imperfections, but we don't, we shouldn't have, we shouldn't say, hey, let's put dating on a you know, a fair opportunity. Like everybody should get the fair chance to date certain people or whatever the case is. You know, you you should still have a choice on if, you know, if if I want to hire my homie because my homie Parrot's not stopping that. Right, it's not stopping it, it's just promoting it.

SPEAKER_00 42:19

It's just making it more fair until it gets down to game time where the interview happens. That's it. Look, I there's absolutely gonna be realities where two candidates go through Parrot because Parrot is their is the company's default uh uh job platform in this scenario, and one person that goes in there um happens to know somebody internally. They're gonna still try to leverage that on top of using Parrot. I know that. Like there's there's no there's no way to really stop that. They'll probably DM their friends, yeah. I I applied, I'm anonymous, but you can tell who I am because but like they're gonna they're gonna find ways, right, to leverage that. That, or if they don't do that, there's a chance that they get into an interview and surprise the person hiring them or interviewing them knows them and they didn't know because they were anonymous.

SPEAKER_02 43:02

They just know what this sounds like to me. This sounds like this sounds like to me that you didn't get a job that you wanted that you really wanted, then somebody else got it because they knew the person who was hiring.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

I it's it's it's not about me. It's not about me. I I I've I've it has to be a why, right? The why is because it's important to to make a difference and to help people pay their bills, to help people you know live a life of security. That's why. Sure, I've I've been passed up before. I'm doing okay. Like I'm I'm I'm working full time, I'm one of the lucky ones. I I told you a few minutes ago that I I benefited from this problem. You know, but but I've also experienced the other side, and just because I benefited once does not mean I like it. It doesn't mean that I think that overall it should be a good thing. You know, I feel similar, and this is a totally different subject, but it's it's similar to the other.

SPEAKER_02 43:53

To me, if if if I got turned away from a company because I because I was black, right? Going off that off offhand. One, I wouldn't know that, right? Two, it's like, okay, we're gonna turn this guy down because we got dreads, we don't like him, and he's black.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

They're doing me a favor. Okay, that's fair. I will say for one thing, you you may or may not know. I think there are there have definitely been examples out there where someone was given evidence that suggested that there was something malicious in play. So I think that your experience is not is not everybody's experience. And two, correct. Well, I'm just gonna and two, I will say that it's actually really two parts to this. One, would you would you define yourself as successful with your business and your podcast? Would you say I'm a successful man? And you're and you're happy, right? You you're fulfilled. You are not everybody, and so you might be able to handle that scenario better than somebody else can, but it doesn't matter. The scenario of getting overlooked for being black or whatever. Like you like sort of thing, your your your mentality.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

Right, and I'm not saying like I'm not saying that that's I'm not saying everybody's like that. What I'm saying is if someone, if a company chooses not to hire a black person because they're black, I'm telling black people that company has done you a favor. Oh, because they will bring more problems to you if they hired you, knowing they don't like black people. I think that at the end of the day, if a company don't hire me because I'm black and I wear and I have dreads, you're doing me a favor, sir, ma'am, whoever you are. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 45:27

Look, this isn't this isn't the same. I'll never know what it's like to be a black person, but I'm I'm Jewish. And so I I experience my own my own uh uh uh DEI stuff being a Jewish person and also not necessarily looking Jewish, right? People don't necessarily assume that I'm a Jewish guy, but I've experienced weird stuff from that association over my lifetime. And so my my my point is I totally agree with you. If I if I found out that I was overlooked uh or overlooked, or maybe there was just I was declined because I was Jewish, uh if I if there's evidence of that, I agree with you. They did me a favor. I I I agree. However, we can also assume that companies that care about that stuff that are actually gonna be doing, you know, not so great hiring tactics like that, they're not gonna be using parrot.

SPEAKER_02 46:11

They're not gonna be well, and one, they probably won't even be in business long. So really, so either way, like there's uh there's pros and cons to the whole thing. Like, yeah, they didn't hire me because I'm black, yeah, I'm getting what I want, but eventually, you know, people will see through certain things.

SPEAKER_00 46:25

For companies that are doing that are already they're trying to do better, but they maybe haven't come up with the right solution yet to to make a big enough impact to make things fair, and they want to be a part of something different and and and and and it sounds like a new way of trying to implement DEI. It could be, it could, it it's it's a it could DEI is a part of it, it is.

SPEAKER_02 46:47

I mean, and and it's and except more when they freelance, like it's not being regulated by the government. Because how do you regulate if it's being fairly used or if somebody was still having a fair chance?

SPEAKER_00 47:00

It's also like crowdsourcing. It's like the my goal with Parado is to be as transparent as possible about how all this stuff works, and so both candidates and employers, they're gonna see it on paper exactly how it works. And it's up to them if they want to invest in it and and consider it a safer, more secure, and fair platform. I'll give them the tools, I'll say, here's why they can choose to not agree with me if they if they don't want to, but I still will will take solace in the fact that I'm trying, that I'm trying to make a difference. And I think some people are gonna be on board because I've talked to people about this, other people that, and some of which, most of which are happily employed. They're doing just fine. And I've talked to recruiters even. I've talked to people that have stake in the game that agree that that this needs to be addressed, that it's that it's it's imperfect enough to be considered a problem.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

I agree. I think that it's needed. I'm not gonna say it's not, I'm just saying I'm just gonna, I'm still gonna come in from the perspective of, you know, like, okay, why do I need this right now? And like, because like in my mind as an entrepreneur, I have to still feel like, you know, like everything is business.

SPEAKER_00 48:11

Everything's is business, and you know, culture. For example, you know, we hear all the time about toxic stuff in the workplace, right? People, people, uh employ employees suing companies, right? Companies getting out of hot water for all kinds of weird practices, you know. Um and I could see Parrot being something that a company that is trying to show that they're making a difference and that they're being considerate, they jump into a platform like this because frankly, they they want to be on the on the progressive side. They don't they don't want their they want to be as as as low opportunity as possible for someone to have a reason to sue them, you know, because that's expensive too. And I can see this being a a security measure, right? In the same way that somebody uh that that a legal team decides that we need to invest in a giant cybersecurity contract because we're afraid we're gonna get hacked. It's the same idea, it's a solution that affects the problem.

SPEAKER_02 49:03

Correct, you know. Could could Parrot be sued? Do you think this is an easy way to be or do you think this is the easier way to be sued? I can easily arguably say, you know, I got on Parrot because I was looking for fair opportunity. Sure. And I still did not get fair, I still feel like I was not given a fair opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 49:25

Plenty of people will still say it's not fair. I I can't fix everybody or everybody's situation. I can only offer a solution that might help. And and and hopefully I have some data to back it up. But but to your point, there's gonna be plenty of, you know, like, you know, fine print and whatnot that is any company would, that's going to lay it all out there and be transparent about like what we can promise and what we can't, you know? Right.

SPEAKER_02 49:48

You know, that so you still so it still could not promise fair opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

I I think that it's it's probably an impossible problem to make it a hundred percent fair. I'm that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 50:02

Because there's no because I don't, I don't, I can't see a way of verifying that. Like, how do you know I didn't hire you because I just didn't like the way your eyes was looking?

SPEAKER_00 50:10

It's more about okay, think about a candidate experience. All right, think about um here's here's an example, right? Someone applies. I actually actually I'm I can use myself as an example again. I once applied to a job in the last year or two where um I sent in an application at like 10 p.m. at night. Within four hours, I had a rejection. I had a rejection by 2 a.m. And I'm sorry that there was nobody out there at 2 a.m. reviewing resumes, no matter what time zone you're in, because this was an American company, there's nobody reviewing resumes at that time. So that was either AI either either AI not doing its job well, or it's there's something else going on internally on the you know, inside the their current job portal that is totally screwing the pooch for this, for this, for in this can't in this scenario, me. And like, why was I even given an opportunity to apply at all if they're gonna be within four hours rejecting me? And also their rejection notice is carbon copy, like BS, like two sentences with no explanation, no actual like clarity as to what was wrong with my application, about my resume, like nothing in the in the communication suggests why I should I wasn't rejected. But all I know is I was rejected at 2 a.m. in the morning.

SPEAKER_02 51:29

Well, I'll say this here isn't there like a regulation behind like jobs if there's a post and like you have to put out a job, you have to put out the job posting. I think every stay's good, from my understanding. Yeah, yeah. So okay, so it could be that because some like some jobs actually some companies actually do have to put the job out as an open position, right? Let me ask you this here. What are you what what are you good at? What like what is it that you do that you're really good at?

SPEAKER_00 51:53

I think I'm my best skill set is probably building relationships with people. But I don't know what that means. Like, what position would that be? Like, like, like getting to know someone and understanding what makes them tick and and how I can help them and how they can help.

SPEAKER_02 52:08

Could you label it as a title so I can help so it helps me in my mind? Like, what would you title it? Like a sales community person?

SPEAKER_00 52:14

Like, would you call it community engagement? In this scenario, I would say relationship manager, but I guess what I've been doing for years now is I've been working in the working in community roles. So it is it's very similar. It's just it's mostly mostly on it.

SPEAKER_02 52:27

So you're so your relationship manager, all right, bam, boom, let's go with that. I run my company, right? Right. A lot of my I have a lot of clients, right? I have clients that that I have for my company, podcast clients, business. All of my clients are business owners, right? I'm like, all right, fuck. We need a relationships manager. Sure. Right? I need one. I know you. We were now engaging with each other, we have a conversation, you and I were talking, and now, you know, I'm like, oh shit, my man Dom. He does that. Why not go hire my man Dom to do the job? Because even though Because have you ever, I'm sure you've heard the phrase don't hire your family. You're not my family. You're white, I'm black. We're not family nowhere near.

SPEAKER_00 53:09

That's not what I mean. I'm not saying literally, I'm saying it's the same idea of like sometimes hiring someone close to you is not always the answer. And sometimes it can actually. So that I'm not close. You and I are not close. I just said that you're my man Tom. You said my man dumb. I don't know what you said.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

Yeah, because you're my man now, because now we we're talking, we're on a show, so now you mo you one of my man's. So I'm looking at hired me.

SPEAKER_00 53:32

If you hired me because of this one hour conversation, I'd be like, dude, you're not a good boss.

SPEAKER_02 53:36

Well, the thing is, this isn't a one-hour conversation. You and I had a conversation prior to this. Well, okay, so in our hour and a half. And then we had a conversation prior to this before the show. My thing is, if I have a relationship with somebody, I'm still gonna sit there and say, let's reach out. Now I didn't say I was hiring your ass. What I said was, let me reach out to my man Dom. Okay. Because he does that. Reach out, don't mean I'm about to hire you. Reach out just means that I know a guy.

SPEAKER_00 54:04

Let's make sure that we are we are comparing like the simple like like scenarios that are similar enough. Because what you're suggesting is you're reaching out to me because you know me and you know that I could be good for this.

SPEAKER_02 54:15

You know, I could do that kind of work, right?

SPEAKER_00 54:16

Right, right. And then I apply, and then is the assumption not only that I've been through the whole hiring process like normal, but then but then also you're gonna continue hiring other candidates? Is that what you're suggesting?

SPEAKER_02 54:26

I'm hoping that I'm not hiring other candidates. I'm hoping that I'm still interviewing other candidates. I'm looking for a one-roll thing. So I'm not looking hiring now.

SPEAKER_00 54:35

On top of talking to me, let's let's say you talk to me and I say, Great, sounds awesome. I'd love to be, I'd love to be considered, and we and we start the process. Are you gonna other candidates also? Am I gonna do what? Are you gonna talk to other candidates also on top of talking about?

SPEAKER_02 54:48

I'm gonna interview, yeah, I'll interview other candidates. Cool. I think I mean I think any business should it should never fall on one person because what if you're what if you're not able, what if you're not capable to do what we're asking for just because you are good with relationships? What the hell does that mean? Like what can you be good with business relationships? I know I'm I'm aware.

SPEAKER_00 55:09

My point is there are examples of people that are not doing that, that are just basically giving someone a fast pass new a job. Or, or let's say you had a guy that you interviewed and you made him go through five interview rounds and he did a work product assignment, he spent hours on it, he basically gave you free work, he's in he he invested a portion of his of his of the little free time he has, and he's and he's passionate, and he is every uh every box checks other than the fact that you just met him for the first time, and then Don Finetti comes in and you you forgot, oh shit, I know this guy. I'm gonna see if he if he wants to get uh wants to be considered. Not only do you give me the opportunity, but because you know me, you have me skip five interview rounds so that I can be basically at the same level as the other guy. And you might even say, Oh, you don't need to do the assignment, I know your work. That's wrong. It's wrong. It's just not cool, dude. It's not cool. And it and everybody should get the same asks, the same experience. I I I you don't have to agree. A company can decide that they don't care about being fair. That's their choice, right? That's their choice. What's wrong with that? Parrot's not the president, we can't force you. I'm saying, I'm saying that this is a solution that if you do care about it, and I know there are people that do, you have an option. That's all.

SPEAKER_02 56:26

Right, right. And what and all I'm saying is I'm the type of person I support good, but I also support what people want to do. Like it's like just because they want to do it doesn't mean it's necessarily bad. Just because they want, it's it's not, it's not, it's not a crime when we know it's not illegal, and it and it might be it. I will even say that I'm not I can't even say this unethical. I think that's just business practice because I'm certain that when you you can you can use this analogy in school. I'm certain professors and teachers do the same shit.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

Let me ask you this just because you've seen my work before and it was great, is there a gearing that I'm never gonna fuck up? Excuse me.

SPEAKER_02 57:10

No, I said that, but I no, I mean my because my thing is my thing is your work can be great, but again, culturally, you still have to fit in. Because I we just talked about that earlier. I say sometimes people do a great job, but they call out a lot. So sometimes people do a great job, but they so you know, thing so that's what I'm saying. Things like that. Like so, you know.

SPEAKER_00 57:29

My point is knowing that, knowing that even hiring the guy that you trust, right, or or know better, even just to say that know better, knowing that even they may not be perfect. Imagine if you sent that guy through Parrot, right? The same guy, and you you put him next to to 20 other candidates, and surprising to you, the AI scores all the stuff, his answers, he looks at his resume, basically compares him to the next guy, and AI and all of the all of the data in this app says, actually, he's not that great. Maybe you were wrong, maybe you don't know Dominic like you thought you knew.

SPEAKER_02 58:08

Well, here's what I'll say. I would also say, while that is exactly accurate, I would also say that AI and Parra can also say, Hey, Tom is actually more of a great fit for your company. And I hire Tom and it'd still be a terrible experience.

SPEAKER_00 58:24

Yeah, that that and and that and that's the nature of human beings in the workforce. There's no like I'm I'm that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 58:29

So I would rather trust my instinct on somebody that I've encountered with and trust first.

SPEAKER_00 58:33

And you're entitled to trust your instinct more if you want. And I'm and I'm telling you that not everybody's gonna be like that. I don't think everybody's like that. Of course.

SPEAKER_02 58:41

And and and I don't and and and I agree, uh everybody's not like that, but also everybody's not like, hey, fair opportunity. But that's like, right? The cra the crazy thing is, you know, you marry the two. If somebody don't want to hire, if somebody don't want to hire somebody because look, their shoe color was blue, that ain't got shit to do with me.

SPEAKER_00 59:01

I'm still again, I'm still building the platform and I and I haven't really compared all the policies yet. But as of this moment, I have not thought to myself, oh, if I get a client for Parrot, then I'm gonna require them to not use LinkedIn, also, right? Like I I I I as because to me that would open up more problems, right? To try to put to try to like you know own the market. So I'm not trying to do that. And so if if someone like you is uncertain about the uh quality of the hires at Parrot, you have the right to do a a a job posting on Parrot and LinkedIn and see what you get, and you might be surprised what you find, you know. And what's wrong with that?

SPEAKER_02 59:38

So my thinking is what's wrong, right? Right. So if you if you pay attention to what I've been saying really all show, is what's wrong with that? If I decide I want to use Parrot and I want to use LinkedIn, what's wrong with that? If I decide I only want to use LinkedIn, what's wrong with that? If I decide I only want to use Parrot, what's wrong with that? I want to be clear. What I'm saying is people still have options to do what they are comfortable doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

And to be clear, when I say you're asking what's wrong with that, using those platforms is not is not what's wrong. What's wrong is is not acknowledging that there's a problem and not trying to do what you can to address it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:17

And the problem, in your opinion, is people are being skipped over.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:22

The job market is a toxic.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:24

I'm not, I don't know. I don't I don't I don't I don't work for people. What I what I will say is even in the instance where you're talking about fair and um getting people fair opportunities, my thing is looking at it like this here too. Sometimes people are overqualified. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:43

Sure. And and actually, my argument to that, actually, that's a whole other subject, in my opinion, to some degree. Yeah, it is. I hear a story all the time about someone who says I was overlooked and I applied for a job that was that would have been a step down for me, but I'm but I need a job so bad and I I need to pay my bills, my wife's in the hospital or whatever, and I just need money. And so I'm happy to take a step back if it means I can at least pay my bills. Those people And most but most companies don't want to do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:10

And I think now see, now that's morally correct, right? If I'm like, you know what, no, I don't want to hire this person because what I'm asking for is too little based off of what they can actually do.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:19

I actually think that that's not that simple. I I I I think I think it's it's there's an you could you could say it's morally correct, but I think you also could say it's morally incorrect. I think I think it's nuanced. I think that look, it should come down to as simple as who has the best resume, who had the best interview skills. That's what it should be. And if I don't think so. And that's fine. You don't you don't have to agree with me.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:40

I think I think I you I think that it should really in the business, I think that it should boil down to what this person brings to the table. But isn't that what that's the resume in their the res the people bullshit on resumes all the time. But then how would they they bullshit on resumes all the time?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:58

You're suggesting then in this scenario that you you're basically suggesting that resume doesn't matter, pastor pins is past you know what you say, where you work doesn't matter, and all that matters is all that you're saying that all that does matter is that you know the guy?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:14

No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is the resume you say you say, hang on, hold on. You said the only thing that should matter is the resume and their skill set. What I'm saying is I don't think so. I think that people can bring in a resume, people alter their resumes all the time. We know for a fact that people aren't actually putting all of their jobs on their resume, especially if they was terminated. I um but what I'm saying is in an interview, if I'm interviewing a candidate, what matters to me, the resume is what got them in the room. Yeah, yeah. Right? That's what got them in the room. What matters to me now is characteristic traits, who they are as an individual. Because you could be great at what you do on paper, you could be great at your job, but but do you like but does your character do I like your characteristics? That's right. Do I like you as a person?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:04

I I actually agree with you, but my point is, how then do you evaluate that if if if the to me, the only two ways to do that would be either to get them to the interview to meet them, or you already worked with them in some way in the past, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:19

How do you evaluate and that's why that's why it's called great interviewing skills? I mean, don't get me wrong, you cannot know a person in you cannot know everything about a person in a 45-minute conversation. You also cannot know a person in four or five years of knowing them. You still don't know fully a person, but you're going off of your bait, your judgment from your own experience of like, hey, this is a candidate. I've seen this before in a candidate who I hired in the past who's responded similarly to this, and we and this person ended up stealing from my company. Probably not gonna hire this guy because this person gives me those same exact kind of characteristics and conversation. Is that wrong to is that wrong to do that?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:04

I mean, my my answer is at the end an employer can do whatever they want. I'm not I'm not I'm not saying that they have to use parrots.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:13

Like I'm I'm aware. No, I'm not I mean I'm not even talking about parrot. I'm saying that is it wrong, is it wrong that the that that the employer was like, you know, I don't want to hire this person because this person's responses remind me of a response of another candidate who we terminated who ended up stealing from our company.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:31

I think I I think to some degree at least you could say that it is wrong. I think I think it's nuanced, but I think you could say it's wrong because they're just they're they're comparing apples to oranges just because one right.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:42

That doesn't mean somebody did yeah, but yeah, and I agree with that, but they're human, so they're naturally going to this is this feels familiar, this sounds familiar. I've seen this before. You know what? I'm gonna hire this person.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:56

They're the hiring manager, they can decide to use that rationale to not hire the guy. I'm telling them that I don't agree with it, and that I don't think that's the right state of mind to be judging somebody upon. I, you know, but it's it's not my company, you know. They're the they're the hiring manager. So they if they if they want to basically live in fear, right? They're like they had I don't think it's fear.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:20

I think it's just I think it's just human nature. Like this seems familiar, it's it's moving with logic, it's moving with experience. They've seen this type of behavior before.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:31

If I if I am I wrong for that, am I wrong for that? Let me ask you this.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:38

Now it'll be different if somebody was like, I'm not gonna hire this black man because I hired a black man before and a black man stole from my company. That's different.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:48

I'm saying Can you give an example of what you're what this guy would have said that turns the guy off? Like, what did he say?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:53

Okay. So if he's like, you know, um, could you tell me about why you what happened? With your last company and why you didn't work for the last company. And he might say, Well, these people was always tripping about me, you know, about my drawer not always being counted for. I know that I count on my drawer all the time. And it just, I'm just giving an example of because in companies, sometimes people gotta count drawers and their drawers are shortaged. A lot of people are very familiar with this. If you're coming to me and you're telling me that you had a problem with a drawer shortage, and I hired somebody who said the same thing and who actually ended up stealing from me, yeah, I'm gonna naturally think that. I think that's a natural thought process. If you have a if you if you're if you're telling me, you know, you had issues with draw shortages from a previous company and you're coming to me saying the same. So yeah, and I've seen that.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:44

I think that's a very fair assessment to say Yeah, but but but but this this in this scenario, this happened during the interview, correct? Yeah, right. That's fine. The guy got the interview. That's my that's what I'm trying to resolve. I'm trying to he in the door. I'm just trying to get him in the door. Like he in the door, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:01

Right. But I ain't gonna hire him because I but am I but my question is am I wrong for not hiring him because he had an issue with draw shortage, like somebody else had an issue with drawer shortage, and I hired him.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:14

Again, I'm telling you that that is am I wrong?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:18

Am I wrong?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:20

I I don't know because this is a made-up scenario.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:23

Well, no, well, no. Actually, this is a very common scenario that oftentimes, you know, when you're talking about fast food restaurants, retail stores, people always have drawer shortages. So this is a very common scenario. So my question is, am I wrong for it?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:38

You don't think that my answer, that he can do whatever he wants, it counts as an answer?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:42

Like I I think I think no, I think that it does, but just because they could do what they want doesn't mean it's right or wrong. My question is, is it right or wrong?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:50

Why, why, why, why is this specific question important to you? Because because that's not what parrot's trying to fix. Well, no, we're not even talking about parrot.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:58

I'm just talking about in general. Okay. Yeah, get off of parrot, yeah, stay off of parrot. Yeah, I'm just talking now in general, in a situation where somebody's not.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:09

Okay, we're just talking about morals now. Okay, um, so forgive me for wanting to stay close to the original topic. I um you love this parrot thing. Well, I'm passionate about this problem trying to solve, and I also I I also think that I'm not I'm not God. I I I don't I don't think it's my I I feel weird about telling someone what's right or wrong in that scenario because like I'm not I'm not here to judge somebody.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:34

I will say I don't think it's wrong. Then that's not it's not that's that's just just for my fair assessment. I will say I don't think it's wrong that a person would feel that way because of past experience.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:43

I think if I was that guy or or like if I was you in the scenario and I had experienced this, I would be able to understand what you're what you're trying to point out better. I I've never experienced that. I've never had to like think, you know, so I mean I guess that means I'm I'm I'm I'm uh I'm I'm I'm lucky or or or privileged or something. But my my point is I I think you know the problem that people are complaining about and again I'm bringing it back to my to the job stuff kind of, but I I guess I'm trying to stay in a land that I have jurisdiction in. You know what I mean? And I I don't I don't know if I have a a say in in in in that moral argument. You know, I I think they have a right to to say that it's right right but to that to the same point, I'm not gonna say that it's right or wrong. They have they have a right to decide what they want to decide.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:36

Now, just because you say it's right or wrong doesn't make it law. That's just that's your perspective, your opinion. And your opinion is your opinion, it's subjective. Doesn't make it law. It's a so if I'm asking a question, it's not to say what your answer may your answer becomes law. It's just that's your opinion, you know, it's subjective. So if I'm like, hey, do you believe this is right or wrong? You might say yeah. Somebody else might say no. It's all right. What's wrong with that?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:59

No, I I don't think there's anything wrong with having your own opinion. Isn't that that's that's not I don't think I agree. I was never trying to suggest that that's that's how I feel.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:10

No, I never think you that I never thought you were. I think we that just turned into that from that question. I was just saying that at the end of the day, it's not law that I'm you know, that your response. And I don't, and and to be fair, we all gotta pass some form of judgment. And I don't care what no, I think anybody would lie to you in an interview if they say they didn't pass some form of judgment when they're interviewing people. Sorry, it's I think it's a lie. We always, as entrepreneurs, when we're interviewing business owners, we are always passing judgment. Why? Because you're coming into our world. Like somebody come, somebody comes to my interview with a tank top, a do-rag on, and uh, you know, and sweaty, I'm I'm I'm passing judgment. I'm like, what the hell is going on? Like you you can tell me what's going on, and then maybe and your story, and maybe I could be like, I, you know, I can see this as going on. But the judgment, but the judgment still happened. Sure. I still passed the judgment.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:04

Absolutely. And and and look, there's there's a reality where that happens with Parrot, right? But what I'm doing is I'm trying to eliminate unfairness for as long as I can. Um, and um Do you think I'm being fair to you right now?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:18

About what? About what? Just the the the whole show today.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:22

Oh, I mean, I think this is what you do. I think this is what you do. That's my answer.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:30

But uh I will say, speaking of which, I I did get pinged just now. I I I I probably needed uh uh but yep, yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:37

But yeah, we're gonna wrap up.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:38

But yeah, uh no, I look, man, you're doing your thing. I I uh I I purposely didn't watch a lot of your content because I was like, what if what if I watch it and I get like intimidated and then I like I don't want to have this conversation? No, no, so I'm I was prepared for for whatever you're gonna throw at me. I you know, and and if I got it, you know, if and when I got emotional, it's only because I care about about what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:59

Oh, you're passionate. You're you're from this show. I uh you have to pull that out of people, and I feel I'm I'm glad I pulled that out of you. Well, listen, let me do my closing. Yeah, sure, sure. So, so all right, so hey everybody, hey Dom, thank you so much for joining the show. Thank you all for tuning in and listening to this very impactful, informative, hopefully entertaining show for you guys. My man, my man Dom. My man Dom, who jumped in front of the camera multiple times. We his face was here and here and here and here and here and here. Hey, he listened this is what this is about. This is entrepreneurship at its finest. Sometimes it's uncomfortable conversations, but that's the real world. You have to have those conversations. Thank you again so much for joining the show. Thank you all for tuning in again. Once again, you guys can always find us on all streaming platforms. You guys can also watch this YouTube video on YouTube, and you can see all of our latest episodes and up to date news on our website at utepodcast.com. In the meantime, we'll see you guys on the flip side. I'm your host, Jamine Domus, and welcome to the other side of motivation. We'll talk soon.