Author Laura Munson on Opening to Awe

Bestselling author Laura Munson talks with Tess Callahan about her new book, THE WILD WHY: STORIES AND TEACHINGS TO UNCOVER YOUR WONDER, which she describes as a "teaching memoir" designed for people who think they are not creative. She discusses the value of intuition and wonder both in the writing life and everyday living. She offers tips for managing empathy and cultivating a firm but friendly relationship with one's inner critic. Laura shows us how wonder and awe are the wellsprings of creativity. She shares examples from her life, including a time when patience and curiosity led to a mourning dove alighting on her hand. Laura ends with a powerful message. Love is stronger than fear.

Laura Munson is the New York Times, USA Today, and international best-selling author of the novel Willa’s Grove (Blackstone) and the memoir This Is Not the Story You Think It Is (Amy Einhorn/Putnam). Her inspiring new self-help book, The Wild Why: Stories and Teachings to Uncover Your Wonder is due out April 8, 2025. Founder of the acclaimed Haven Writing Retreats, she has been featured or published in Vanity Fair, Elle, Redbook, Time, Newsweek, The New York Times Modern Love column, The New York Times Magazine, O. Magazine, and many others. She has appeared on Good Morning America, The Early Show, WGN, NPR, London’s This Morning, Australia’s Sunrise, and other global media outlets. She lives in Whitefish, Montana. Find out more about her writing and retreat offerings at: https://lauramunson.com/.

Tess Callahan is the author of the novels APRIL & OLIVER and DAWNLAND. She holds an MFA from Bennington College and is a certified Mindfulness Meditation teacher taught by Tara Brach and Jack Kornfield. She offers author interviews on her Substack: https://tesscallahan.substack.com/publish/home, and guided meditations on her sister podcast Heart Haven Meditations, available on Apple, Spotify and elsewhere.

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Host: Tess Callahan
Substack: Writers at the Well
Guided Meditation Podcast: Heart Haven Meditations
Meditations on Insight...

Transcript

Tess Callahan: 0:00

I welcome to Writers at the well, a podcast that offers intimate conversations with authors about how they draw words and images up from the depths of their inner well, how do they move into a flow state? Do they meditate? Walk in nature? Do they do cartwheels? Let's find out. I'm your host. Tess Callahan, author of the novels April and Oliver and Dawn land. I hope you enjoy this deep dive into the inner workings of the creative process. Today, my guest is author, teacher and speaker, Laura Munson. Laura is a New York Times and USA Today, Best Selling Author and founder of the acclaimed Haven writing retreats in Montana. She has been published globally, including in the New York Times Magazine lives column, O Magazine and the New York Times Modern love column, where her column received so many responses, it shut down the New York Times website. Her books include the novel Willis Grove, the memoir. This is not the story you think it is a season of unlikely happiness and a forthcoming non fiction book, The Wild why? Stories and teachings to uncover your wonder, described as an illuminating Self Help tool, perfect for anyone who yearns to rekindle their own voice. Listeners, you'll notice a little technological snafu during the last 10 minutes of this interview that caused some of Laura's responses to be garbled, but they're still audible, and I hope the audio quality won't detract from the power of Laura's closing words, welcome Laura.

Laura Munson: 1:57

Oh, thanks for that introduction. Tess, it's so nice to be here. I can't wait to see what transpires in our time together here. It's sure to be illuminating.

Tess Callahan: 2:10

It's such an honor to have you here. I'm a great admirer of your work, and there are three broad areas I'd like to talk about. So your writing process, your writing itself, in particular, your forthcoming book The wild why, and also your haven writing retreats. So if you don't mind, I'd like to start with your process, which you have described writing as a meditative walking trance. Wonder if you can say more about that.

Laura Munson: 2:46

I love meditative walking trance. I actually say waking trance now meditative walking that's because

Tess Callahan: 2:56

I couldn't read my own writing. Laura, I love that

Laura Munson: 3:02

writer meditative hands. Okay, so I call writing a meditative waking trance. And some people call it flow state. And if that seems too lofty for people, you can think of of it like this. It's like anything that we do where we lose track of time, where suddenly, you know, we sit down to do something, and it's three hours later, and a lot of writers have a hard time sitting down at all, and especially sitting down for a long time. For me, it's the other way around, and it's not necessarily healthy, and it's not necessarily something that I advise to my students and clients, because I'll sit down and lose track of eight hours and forget to move. You know, writing is brutal on the lower back, and often when we're writing about things that are difficult, I'll notice that I'm holding my breath, or my shoulders are up in my ears, or I'm kind of hunched over fetal protecting, you know, my organs, and it's so important to move around as a writer, for me, it's an obsession and one that I've had all my life. And I don't like to promote that idea, because what I'm trying to do is eradicate the tortured artist paradigm. So I've got a book coming out, actually, in 2026 about writing. This book the wild. Why that we'll talk about is not for writers, it's for everybody, but the book, in the book about writing, one of the things I say is that writing isn't just writing, it's living in a way that helps you find what it is that you have to say, and obviously, eventually it comes down to pen on paper or fingertips on keyboard, or however you write. But if it's living, then writing can be taking a walk in the woods, and maybe that's the meditative. Of walking trance or taking a bath or making soup or pasta sauce, writing is living. And if you are a writer or thinking about becoming one, I suspect that you are a highly sensitive person full of empathy. And I think a big piece of getting into that flow state is managing your empathy, and that's what I'm really trying to educate people about, how to have that radical empathy and to be so tuned in, but to not have it take you down, to not have empathy for every single thing all the time, so I could go on and on about this, and I I'll stop, so that you can ask me more questions. But that's that's the entry point when I'm teaching somebody about their practice, how could you find a practice that is congruent with who you are? Maybe you're not somebody that would lose eight hours. And good for you, please don't it's better for you to sit down for two hours, maybe. But do you have to write every day to be a writer? Some teachers are out there saying that that's true. I don't believe that if writing is living, then we're always writing, and we have to trust that. And sometimes it's low tide. I don't believe in writer's block. I don't believe in this phrase that's in everybody. It seems to be in the collective. I'm stuck. I don't believe in that. It's just that the writing is working in us sometimes, and it's not coming out of the pen. That doesn't mean that it's for not so that's that's my little monolog about my writing practice and what I believe in for others, that's healthy. Let's have it be healthy.

Tess Callahan: 6:45

That's beautiful. I cut of the same cloth in terms of obsession and sitting down for hours, and I appreciate what you're saying. I'm particularly interested in this idea of managing empathy, because writers are, by nature, empaths. And if you can say more about that, not just for writers, but for anyone, what that means, if you can help us understand in a real life context, let's say where you've had to manage your empathy, what it looks like, if you don't,

Laura Munson: 7:22

yeah, well, that's such an important topic. If we care about writers, I think we need to begin there. And in fact, on my haven writing retreats in Montana, I bring this up in our first night together, when we're introducing ourselves to one another. And when I bring this up, I think a lot of people don't understand just what like, what their personality type is like, what it's like to walk around in their shoes, because they're always thinking about what it's like to walk in other people's shoes. And there's this sort of collective like, who like a sigh that I hear from people, like, really, oh my gosh, I get it. So I have a whole lesson. I also have an Online Writing Community called Haven nest, and the enrollment opens like once or twice a year, and it's closed right now, but one of my lessons is called the inner colander, managing your empathy and if my devotion look we can, we can turn a phrase or twist a plot or have a fabulous command of the language in which we write all day long. But if we don't have our finger on the pulse of what's behind our writing, then it really doesn't matter. So let's begin there. It's not a pie in the sky of you know idea this is actually essential to living a healthy writing life, to even living the writing life at all. So I think of it like a colander. I try to be playful like I don't call the inner critic or the inner judge, and I've never, ever met a writer that doesn't have one. On some level, I used to fight that inner critic, and then I started to understand that I'll never really shake that voice, and this is a bit of a tangent, but I decided to get playful with her, and why not look at her like a scared child who's just being really mean because she's really scared, and when I'm really mean to myself, I know that I'm really scared, and so I look at her like a child, just a scared child who needs who's really hungry or tired or just like having a night haunt in the middle of the night. And I would never just kick my kid out of the room if they were having a night haunt. It's like, Oh, sweetheart, you're having a bad dream. Let's just walk you back to your bed. I'll sit here, rub your back, and things will hopefully calm down and they do so that playfulness is really helpful, because writers are often people who've been through. I mean, we're writing about, usually pain, you know, even if we're purely trying to entertain people, and I'm not one of those writers, but we're usually writing through some sort of pain in some way. Right? And so why not be kind to ourselves? Why not develop an inner champion, and why not learn how to manage our empathy? And so I look at the empath in me as somebody who, like I need to protect. And I, you know, I live in Montana, and I have for 30 years on some acreage, and I'm alone a lot, and so like, I can there's plenty of room. I don't need an inner colander in Montana, I really don't. Grizzly bears, mountain lions, white tailed deer, foxes, you name it, like that's I don't feel them in a way that could hurt me. But when I'm in the city, and I'm originally from Chicago, and I've lived in New York City and Boston and Seattle, and I've lived in London and Italy. I've been very lucky in that way. But I choose to live where I live because I don't need that inner colander when I walk into Grand Central Station. I need to have that tool I can't take in everything, or it will slay me. It's like actually dangerous. So I think of it like I always say I raised flexible children. I have two children who are in their 20s now, and I used to say that a lot when they were little. I'm raising flexible children. Well, I think I've raised a flexible writer in me, and I would encourage anyone out there who's a writer to do the same, and that means that it's important to honor your sensitivity, honor your empathy, and walk in not with armor. Armor doesn't work for me, because then it's counter intuitive to the fact that empathy is why I write. You know, I kind of can't not write, because I'm always like, I'm the person in the grocery store. When you say, how are you? Like, I really answer it. Or if I ask you, how are you I want you to really answer it. I like, really want to know what connects us. I don't like small talk. I'm really, pretty much not capable of it, so I think of it like an inner colander. So, like, you know what that is, when you're steaming, you're dumping your thing of pasta into the colander, and the water drains out, and the pasta remains, like a great little facial, you know, like a little steaming moment. I think of it like that, like, and then I fine tune the aperture of those holes in the colander based on where I am in the world. And when I'm in New York City, those little holes, those holes are little. When I'm in Montana, I don't even need the colander at all, so it is a movable and flexible feast, and important to keep it safe for yourself.

Tess Callahan: 12:32

I love the intentionality of that you know, the deliberate changing of the size of the colander and knowing what you need in one circumstance over another. That's really a beautiful image. And I love having metaphors to help us understand psychological processes. So that's a great one. And I noticed speaking of the inner critic in your memoir, this is not the story you think it is, that you name your inner critic, Sheila. And it seems like a kind of playful thing, you know, and being able to have a conversation with this aspect of yourself instead of completely identifying with it, seems incredibly valuable.

Laura Munson: 13:19

Yes. And during that time, Tess, that was 2010 I think when that book came out, and the short version appeared in The New York Times Modern love column in 2009 and there were lots and lots of comments from that, good, bad, scary, lovely, all of it. And so it was kind of baptism by fire. And I learned a whole lot about this subject, and I found that at that time, I never meant to be the star of my own book. I had only written fiction like you. I am a true lover of fiction. That's what I've studied. I've written many, many unpublished novels. One is published Willis Grove, but many are, like 24 of them, I think maybe eight of them are good. The rest were, I think, exercises in learning. But in that book, The memoir that a lot of people read, and it helped a lot of people, and it was published in eight countries, so I got to hear from people from all over the world. It was fascinating talk about empathy and curiosity. But during that time in my life, I was trying to tune in. I was it was a marital crisis in which I was dealing with rejection, and writers deal with rejection, and that's just a part of how we live our lives, and then we self reject all the time. And you know what usually the voice in our own head is is much more cruel than the voices that come out of people's mouths. And so to be playful, I named her my evil twin sister, Sheila. And the book was the best selling book in a. Australia, and that's a very common name there. So I don't know where it came with Sheila, but it was just something that was a way to be playful. But at the time, I did not have that awareness. Yet I learned it promoting that book in all those countries that I'm probably never going to shake her. So at that time, that's depicted in the book, I called her evil. You know, it was like, put up your dukes. How dare you talk to me like that. Most of us wouldn't speak to our worst enemy the way we speak to ourselves in our own mind. And I was really becoming aware of that for the first time in my life, and learning about my thought patterns and investigating how they serve me and sabotage me. That's what that book was really about. It was about emotional liberation, no matter what's going on in your life. But since then, I have a different I have a different way of thinking about it, which I already expressed. It's I look at her now like like a scared child who knows just what to say to break my heart. And she's had a lot of practice. But the reason why I do that is not only because I know I'm not going to shake her probably, but because she, her voice is actually valuable to me, she she's sometimes protecting me. She's not necessarily bad or wrong. And also, even though she might be and we all, all writers, have this voice, and even though that voice might be a product of different people and institutions in our lives, we still co create with that voice. When we invite that voice in, we are inviting that voice in. It's not just landing in our heads that's habituated thinking, but we still co create. We still invite that voice into the prime real estate if we want to kind of hate saying the word real estate around writing, but of our minds, so why in the world would we fight that voice? Because that means we're fighting ourselves, and that doesn't work. So that's when I started to get playful with her, and now I just look at it like, Oh, you're really mean. That means you're really scared. I can find empathy for you and love for you, and it's time for you to go to sleep and take a nap so that I can do my work.

Tess Callahan: 17:15

Very liberating it is. And I love how your relationship to her has evolved over time, and how you've befriended her and value her. It's that's like, a very empowering integration of some aspect of you. Yeah, that's, I really appreciate your talking about that.

Laura Munson: 17:33

Yeah, it's like we've linked arms, like we met on a playground, and I'm just a little less scared than she is, and I'm maybe kind of bossy, like, let's go play in the swings. You know, I'm scared of the swings, or nobody plays on swings. That's not cool. Let's go play in a sandbox. That's where the cool people are. It's like, Oh, come on. You know, you want to swing. That's this whole book that's coming out in April the wild. Why? It's all about reconnecting with your wonder, and you can find that wonder in your relationship with your inner critter, and I encourage you to do so. Why? Why not? Why not have it that way? Why have it, especially four in the morning, right when, like the night, haunts come in and the inner critter is loud and mean and scary, but why not have love for that voice? She's just scared. You can develop an inner champion too. I've learned, though, that you don't have to morph her into the inner champion, but the inner champion and the inner critter, they can link arms, and the three of you can go off into the sunset and have some fun together.

Tess Callahan: 18:42

That's great. So can you tell us more about the wild why? Oh,

Laura Munson: 18:47

I'd love to, yes. I'm excited to be on your podcast, because this is one of the first times I've spoken about it, and I know that starting in April, I'll be doing lots of talking about it. And so to me, this is a pretty pure not that it won't be pure then, but it's pretty raw, because I don't believe in, like, memorizing talking points. I also think that because there's writers out there in your audience, listeners, Hello, fellow word wanderers. That's what we are. Word wanderers. I wrote this book for anybody who has this story in their head, and that is, I'm not creative. And I was walking around the woods one day and I thought, I'm so sick of hearing that. Because again, let's go back to the playground. Nobody is sitting in the sandbox being like, I'm not creative. You know, it's like, what can we make? You know you want? Can I have that trouble? Can we dig that hole? And it's then. So we're born with wonder. And I sat down on a tree stump in the woods behind my house because I thought I'm so sick of hearing people at my speaking engagements or during my retreat or when I'm doing. A book signing, and people say, I want to write a book. I've got a book in me, or I want to write and then they all the refusals happen. Who do I think I am? Somebody already did it better than I ever could. I don't have letters after my name. You know, the same things I hear over and over again. And I thought, This is a story that we have learned along the way. The child in you knows that you're creative, and sadly, I think a lot of us are slotted into roles at a very young age. You're creative, meaning you're artsy or something, or you're a jock, or you're a brain, or you're beautiful or whatever it is, it's a disservice to slot children. And so I thought, how can I break down this myth around creativity? It's just a scary, hot word for a lot of people. And I thought, What's creativity? And then I thought, Well, I think creativity is actually wonder. And then I thought, well, what's wonder? Because that word might be even more scary than creativity, because nobody's like, well, you're wonderful as a child, it's, you know, that's not something that we hear. And I thought, Well, I think what's behind wonder is curiosity, but awe, and awe really has, has me right now, like it awe feels like it's like chasing me down the street, like, like it's after me in a loving way. Because I think in our society, we're pretty good on curiosity. You know? It's like, oh, there's a rainbow. Wow. What makes a rainbow? Suddenly, we're not looking at the rainbow. We're on Google asking, what's a rain? What makes a rainbow? You know? And then we're down the rabbit hole of that. And now we're buying boots or Christmas presents or holiday presents, but if you really hang out with awe, that means you sit and you watch the rainbow and you don't, you can be curious about it, but you're actually beholding it. And I remember when I lived in Seattle there, there was so much rainbow weather all the time. And I remember thinking, if I ever don't stop to look at a rainbow, there's something like I need to check into that. And that's awe. And I don't think our society makes room for awe enough. And maybe that goes back to the meditative, waking trance, you know. Maybe there's like, Have you ever spent an afternoon or just watching birds? One bird, it's, it's one of my favorite things to do. It's not just watching the birds that go by, but like trying to follow one bird, you know. And it probably only takes, I mean, if it's an eagle soaring and writing thermals or a hawk, that's one thing like a Raptor, but a little songbird that's flitting around in the bushes to really sit there and devote an afternoon to following one bird until you can't and then find another one. This is what I'm talking about.

Tess Callahan: 23:00

I love that, Laura, because that really, that really unfolds what you're talking about now. It takes it out of the abstract, and I can just picture you in that moment, and the way that invites awe and wonder and it, I imagine it's like stops the mind you're not going into analytical. Why is the bird doing this? You're just present with the bird. Is that what you're talking about?

Laura Munson: 23:28

Yeah, and there's no measuring stick like, Oh, I'm so good at looking at birds. In fact, I'm leaving a retreat in January. I'm not sure when this is going to air in Uruguay. I finally found out how to say that word, and it's my haven wander program, which is light on writing and heavy on travel, but it's about being it's about traveling intentionally, using writing and slow wing down, and we're going to go bird watching. And I thought, who's going to be up for this? You know, like bird watching and Uruguay and the thing sold out in like, two seconds. Tess, it was incredible, because people, they want to stop Yes, and sometimes they just don't know how. And so going someplace far from home where maybe they don't speak the language, and it's like, bring your binoculars and your pen and a notebook, and let's go be together. Let's not go do together, and let's be in our wonder, our curiosity, but our awe. And I when I was a little girl, this is in the book The wild. Why I used to sit on my lawn in suburban Chicago where I grew up, and I would try to charm birds, and I would sit there for hours. And I have a very big personality. I'm a big extrovert. I think that was my way of kind of like managing my empathy at the end of the day, like I was a theater major and liked to talk and like to listen, and very full of wonder, but I. Used to sit there for hours on our lawn and charm birds. And it would work. There were there was one. It was a morning dove. I called him Henry, and he and I don't know if it was the same one, but Henry would walk across our little Suburban Lawn that my father dutifully mowed into my hand, and we'd hang out. Oh, and that doesn't happen from going inside and pressing buttons. That comes from that comes from sitting in awe. And I think that's thing we've lost. I think it's why people meditate, it's why people pray, it's why people dance in their living rooms and sing. And that goes back to making pasta, you know, or whatever it is, being intentional and deliberate and quiet about our lives, especially in this very not quiet world. Yes,

Tess Callahan: 26:02

oh, Laura, what a beautiful offering you're making to the world with those retreats and also with this book just it's the in my mind, it's the perfect antidote to our time. And I think we have an innate desire for that kind of pause. Because actually, then in that moment when the, I mean, that's magic, the mourning dove comes onto your hand, or you're in Uruguay, and you, you know, see whatever through your binoculars, that's you're experiencing your true aliveness. You're you're completely alive in that moment. And isn't that why we're here better? So

Laura Munson: 26:49

that's why you're doing this good work. Tess, thank you for doing this good work. Well, I'm

Tess Callahan: 26:55

just, I really appreciate. I have not yet read, you know, your new book. Obviously, it's, it's still a manuscript form, but I, I'm loving everything I hear about it, and I'm also seeing how it meshes with what you're doing in your workshops. Curiosity, oh, yeah,

Laura Munson: 27:15

can I read? I like to read you. I've got a copy of it I showed you earlier. Spiral bound. This is, like old school. I want to read you the first the like, the little, teeny thing, the first thing that you see when you open the book. I'd love that, because I think it's what we're talking about. Yeah, and I haven't done this before, so this is exciting for me. So this is the real reason for this book. So it's called the wild. Why stories and teachings to uncover your wonder. It originally, it was called the wild. Why? Stories and teachings on the wilderness of wonder? But that was too cryptic. So to uncover your wonder is what, where it landed. So see if any of you listeners out there and you Tess can relate with this. This is from my fourth grade journal, because we're talking about self expression here, whether it's verbal written, this book is for everybody. It's not for writers. There are some writing exercises in it, because I think pretty much anybody can figure out how to put some words together. But this is not for writers. I've got a book coming out in 2026 that is for writers. This is a distinction that's important to me to make this is about self expression. My fourth grade journal, this is what I wrote. Makes me want to cry. Hopefully I will not cry right now, but if I do, I feel safe.

Tess Callahan: 28:32

You're allowed.

Laura Munson: 28:34

Yeah, this is a big moment. I haven't read this to anybody. Okay? I talk too much, I ask too many questions. I cry too easily. I laugh too loud. I'm too sensitive. I'm not sure what that means, and I feel bad about all of it. Laura Munson, fourth grade journal. I talk too much, ask too many questions. I cry too easily. I laugh too loud. I'm too sensitive. I'm not sure what that means, and I feel bad about all of it. Fourth grade. How old are we in fourth grade? I think we are. I think we're six in first grade, and I can't do math so little bit like under 1010, yeah. 910, yeah. And I had a late birthday, so late August, so like that was the call to action to write the whole book, yeah, and, and, you know, I've worked with over 1000 people in my retreats, which you've mentioned, and I feel like almost every single person who's ever come has their own version of that. Somebody hurt them, in many cases, badly for their self expression. And so why in the world would we ever express ourselves? It's courageous to write books and to even say how we really are. Instead of I'm fine. How are you? Oh, enough about me. This book is about in it, I say in the introduction, it's like in this book, and I'm scared, you know, believe me, I'm scared because that's my oldest childhood wound, that you're going to hurt me for it. But I'm going to in this book. I'm going to talk too much, I'm going to ask too many questions, I'm going to cry, I'm gonna laugh and it's gonna be loud, and I'm gonna be sensitive, and I now know what that means, and I'm not gonna feel bad about all of it, and that's why I hope book lands in so many people's hearts. It scares me because it's very transparent, but it's not an info dump or a trauma dump. I call it a teaching memoir. So it's got personal stories, kind of like, I'll hold the torch, let's go into the wilderness together in wonder. But like, it's, it's not like 10 easy steps and tips and tricks and follow this recipe. It's just, let's return to what we knew as children. Yes, even if we were abused, we still know what wonder is, it's in us, and I don't believe it can die.

Tess Callahan: 31:08

Yeah, and there's such a universal quality about that, Laura, you know what we know? Let's say when we're, you know, six years old with the crayons, and nothing can stop us. We sit down, we know exactly. And no one has to tell us when it's done. You know, when we put the corona, it's just there, and then until from there to that fourth grader who's feeling like, I'm to this, I'm to that. There's some damaging thing that happens in the process. We could put a lot of names on it, but I think there's a universal quality to that. I think most of us have experienced that, and so the intuition that is essential to us. I mean, this book is about intuition, right? And it's in our nature to trust our intuition, and then somehow we come to stop believing our intuition, and then it's to regain. It is the call right, to begin to trust again Absolutely, and to even hear it, to even hear our intuition. And what does that even

Laura Munson: 32:12

mean? I mean, I totally agree with you. I have a whole section like part four. I should probably know these things about my book, but it's written in four parts. And the first one is Wonder wounded. The second one is Wonder challenged. The third one is Wonder lost, and I still don't believe that you can really lose it. And the fourth one is Wonder found, but wonder found is all about tapping back into and it's about 100 pages your intuition because it's it's there. It's not intuition and wonder are not going to leave you. You just forget about it and be kind to yourself, because it's a survival mechanism in our world. However, intuition is not just a frilly idea, it's vital, and so is wonder. Because I make a case in this book for Wonder being what we need to continue our civilization, because wonder is all about empathy, and if we don't have empathy, forget it. We're done. That's it. Yes, you know. And do you think that the ancient civilizations were sitting around thinking like, oh, wonders, like a like, a frilly idea. Now get back to work. It's like, without wonder, how would they know when to plant or or harvest or, you know, understand they were looking at rainbows, not just like, No, that's so beautiful. Now I need to get back to work. Or I'm so pissed off because I'm stuck in traffic, it's like they're looking at it like trying to understand all of what this is, this heartbreaking and beautiful thing called human existence, and the connection with the land and the cosmos and all of it. This is, this is why wonder is vital to our survival, and this is something that I feel like I can't wait to talk about this for the next few years, and to hear people's opinions, like I'd love to hear yours, because I think somehow it's gotten into the strange compartment of being kind of, I don't know what like, just not accessible to everybody. It's accessible to every single person. Yeah, and it's vital. I don't know, what do you think about wonder? If I might throw a question to you.

Tess Callahan: 34:24

Well, I think this is a book for our time right now. Laura, I mean, I the loss of Wonder is counter to the very nature of our species, I think. And I I've heard this one theory about human about our planet, or in particular, the earth, is unusual in the sense that we have an atmosphere that we can it's not completely cloud covered. We can see the cosmos. We can look out into space. And so we have this capacity to imagine that. And our ancestors from Millennium have looked without light pollution. And you know, they have looked into that space and used it to guide them, literally, to navigate. And I think in modern times, we for one thing, not not seeing the night sky, which you probably do see the night sky in Montana, but for most of us, that's a real luxury, and then also being disconnected from nature, from animals, from that is us. We are of this planet. And just like you're saying, though, that the pyramids were not built without a sense of wonder, right? The stone head should not come to be without a sense of wonder. Like all of the achievements of humankind throughout time have come from this sense of wonder, and I think it's in us, and we're hungry for it, and we're and that hunger is going to express itself, you know, if we don't find healthy ways to reconnect with wonder, then it emerges as disease and problems in our culture. So I agree. I really appreciate what you're doing with this book and inviting us to reconnect with wonder, awe and intuition, which I think can feel daunting. I think listeners. I'm sure there are listeners out there who feel like, well, I I'm not connected with my intuition. I wrestle over decisions. How am I supposed to know? What is trust? What is the trustworthy voice in me? I actually, I wanted to offer back something that I read, that you wrote. If you care to share more about this, you're talking about a particular moment in your life. It has to do with connecting with your intuition. And you wrote, I literally heard the name of a person in my mind, a person I barely knew, and it turned out that this person was the exact person who served as the gateway to a major life change that turned in to be one of the best and most painful decisions I've ever made. So your intuition came in the form of voice in your head. We have a lot of voices in our head, like we spoke earlier in a critic. So how, how did you come to trust that voice?

Laura Munson: 37:16

That's a huge question. And, you know, it's, it's interesting. I had, I suspect by, you know, five years into promoting this book, I'll have all kinds of new awareness, because sometimes you write the book in order to understand what you already know, yes, but that is intuitively embedded in you, that you've forgotten, or that or is new information to you. So I always ask writers that I'm helping as an editor, what is the question that you need to answer in this book, whether it's you know, you've got a draft of it, or you're just starting like, what is the question that's burning in you that's charged that you want to answer? And they'll often say, I don't know, and that's okay, because the the writing can be the way that you find your answer, although, as Rilke said, it's all about the questions anyway, so So your question about intuition and how you find that language, I guess you I don't know yet, right? I don't know I've written the book, and I, what I love is that I don't have letters after my name. I'm not like an intuition ologist Or like a wonder ologist. You know, that's part of the book. I'm not. It's not a how to like I've got, you know, a PhD in wonder. It's like I'm just a human being out there wandering around in the woods trying to figure out how to maneuver my way through this, again, beautiful and heartbreaking thing called life, and that's just where I've landed on, getting back to something that we know intuitively now that also includes intuition, and I I feel like it's like a third eye wide open aperture that we need, which takes courage in order to have that knowing, that central inner knowing. And I guess I'll say this, but I don't know if it's totally true, but it seems to me, in this moment right now with you here, Tess that the times when my intuition has been most activated have been during times of hardship where, kind of like the regular stuff doesn't work. You know that, like where there's a real longing, I pay attention to the feeling of longing. There's a real longing in you to answer a question, or to be in the question, or how to deal with that hardship. That's often when the intuition delivers me messages that I don't. Necessarily look for at all. That's the thing. When I look for something, I don't know if I find it really maybe I'm looking too hard. It's like, I love heart shaped rocks that Montana makes the most beautiful, heart shaped rocks along our beautiful rivers, flathead rivers, where I live, and I have a whole collection of them, and in my garden path, like all around my bathtub. I'm a big bathtub person all over my house, in front of my hearth. And I when I'm looking for a hard, shaped rock, I don't find it. But when I stop looking, there it is, you know? So I think you're laughing. So you do know? So I think it's kind of like that with intuition. It's just like when we let go of the wanting in the memoir that got published, there's a whole section about wanting, like, like, it all the problems begin when you want something. It's that craving feeling, but when we get out of want, it's often because we're in pain that we can't it's like wanting is almost like a luxury. It's just like a place of being. And that's when, to me, intuition kicks in, or let's put it this way, I'm able to hear it. And this is kind of like, maybe this is a tangent, but you were talking about being in nature and in willows Grove in one of the last scenes, the four women are all they're all at Crossroads moments, and they're all at this bridge during springtime runoff and the glacial snowpack that goes then down during this the melt into the rivers and out to the lakes and eventually out to the sea. And I always go to this one bridge in Glacier National Park. I'm lucky enough to live only like 40 minutes from Glacier. And I do this thing every spring. And so I put it into the book where I am let go, stand downstream and let go of what I want to let go of. And then I stand upstream and receive like these, you know, like what these crashing river glacial water coming over these boulders have to give me. And so I wrote that into into Willis Grove and Jane, who lives in New York City and also in suburban, Greater New York area and Connecticut, she says, I'm just so afraid that when I go back like she says, I've been so myself here something like that. I think what she really means that she's been in her wonder, and she's been in her intuition, and she can really be in this self knowing, in a self generous way, and but she's worried, and she says to Willa, I'm just afraid when I go back home, I'll lose it. I love who I've been out here in nature. And I think we say this a lot in our society, and I'd like us to change the phrasing out in nature. I'd like us to change that. And what Willa says, and I'm not Willa, but she is of the wisdom that I've learned from living in the woods for 30 years. She says, But Jane, you are nature. And to me, that's saying you are in your intuition. It's available to you all the time. You just and you are in your wonder. You are in your curiosity and awe. And that's available to you anywhere you go. And I always say, and I challenge it, like, when I'm in New York City, and I'm there a lot, I think for somebody who lives in Montana, like I'll be in a elevator in midtown Manhattan. It's like, am I nature here? You know, do I have to be in Central Park to be in nature? And I often, I often think, like, when I'm in a big urban area that's all paved over, I think the seeds are still underneath and all the roots are still underneath, and we are just a blip in the overall thing, you know, because eventually, if we didn't exist anymore, I think all the concrete would break open and the seas would give forth, whatever nature is. So I believe that we are nature. It's not something that's outside of us, or that we have to go somewhere to achieve. I just I'm lucky because, like, I get to walk, walk around in the woods a lot, but you can have that same experience walking around the West Village in New York City.

Tess Callahan: 44:16

Yeah, that's beautiful. I'm really glad that you brought willows Grove into it, because I was thinking of Willis Grove as you were talking about intuition, and about how hardship can ignite intuition, because I think that happens for those four women in that book. They're each at a kind of crossroad, a crucible moment, and they allow each in their own way. They allow themselves to hear their intuition with each other's support, which is also an important part of it. Yeah, you also talk about speaking of nature. You use this expression, tree bathing. Can you say what you mean by that?

Laura Munson: 44:58

There are people who would. Be more informed than I it's an actual thing, tree bathing.

Tess Callahan: 45:07

It's like forest bathing, like that. Okay, gotcha, yes, and

Laura Munson: 45:11

I believe it's practiced in China. I don't know, I don't know Japan, yeah, yeah, Japan, in Japan, but I it's funny, you know how you live your life, and then somebody says, Oh, this is what you're doing. It's a thing called this.

Tess Callahan: 45:29

It's just what you do every day. Yeah,

Laura Munson: 45:31

and I kind of don't want to study it, because I think I just live it. But um, yes, again, I'm very lucky to live or I I feel very lucky to live where I live, and I've chosen very deliberately to live in this way, and especially when I get to be on a horse, but I walk around in the woods a lot.

Tess Callahan: 45:50

Yeah, so I wanted to ask, because we're on the topic of intuition, which is so central to this book the wild, why? And it seems like you have threads of connection to your intuition that include horses, trees, and when you write, you've said you you set up a sacred space. You like the smell of frankincense. You like to listen to Bach fugues. There's a whole incorporation of your sensory awareness that feeds into your writing, but sensing feeds into your writing because it's opens your intuition. Is that. So would you say, What's What is all that about? Whatever you want to say about

Laura Munson: 46:35

it. I think I go right back to the big I mean, I I just always want to be honest, you know? So it's like, yeah, and I know you're that way too. And the people who are listening in, we're people who are seekers and not we don't go cheap for the five easy steps thing. So I've never been good with bulletin points. My bullet points are like two, like a chapter. But I think it goes back to that meditative, waking trance. It's like, I really love the not knowing. I guess some people call it the middle place or or like the thin place. There's a chapter in the this book called The thin place that happens in Ireland when I go to a circle of ancient stones. And I mean, it was the most powerful experience I think I've had without in quotes, meaning to I was supposed to go to this other place. I thought that that's where I was going to go, and it didn't end up happening, and I instead ended up in the circle of stones. It wasn't like a famous place at all and but it was, you know, ancient, and I had this huge thing happen to me there and, well, I mean, it's gonna sound kind of, well, I'll say it. I mean, I heard this groaning sound. This is like deep groaning, like primordial groaning. And I've heard that sound in a few places in my life, and it's when I'm not looking for it, you know? And it's almost funny, because, like when I am looking for this connection with whatever it is, the divine, or, yeah, fill in the blank with what that means to you. It doesn't happen whatever that it is, that feeling of connection, that feeling of oneness, wholeness, collective, we, big, W, little, W, all of it. But when I when I'm not trying, that's when I hear it. So is it intuition? Is it connection with all of it? Like for me, writing is if we believe in the Divine, whatever that means to you. I have said, and I'll say it here, because I feel like I feel safe here saying this when I'm writing, it's the closest that I have ever gotten to co creating with the divine. I gave birth to two children, and those were the other two times when I'm on a horse, I go into that place because I'm I'm co creating with another being that has the ability to kill me or save me, you know. And so I'm totally in the present moment the horses. If anyone out there is a horse person like you, know that you have got to be in the present moment to be safe on a horse and to have fun on a horse. And I really like to go fast on a horse in the woods in Montana alone, usually, so in that circle of ancient stones in Ireland, which is essentially where this book, The Wild white ends, I heard that sound, and I came upon it really, kind of quite by surprise. And to me, that was this inner voice that has always been there and that doesn't even feel like it's mine. It feels collective. It feels like I remember when I gave birth to my first daughter, a friend of mine said, You're gonna feel like you are part of the tapestry of every one. And that has ever given birth. And I thought, oh, isn't that fantastic? And a high and tall order, like I felt like I wasn't just me and and I wasn't just this woman give birth. I felt like it was every woman ever that has given birth. Oh, it's what I said before. Writing isn't writing, is living in a way that helps you find what it is that you have to say, and you can get playful with it, like you can you can go to the grocery store buying broccoli to be in that place. Like, do you have to go to an ashram? Do you have to meditate all day long? Do you have to as well, as Sean said, and my Andre like, can't you just find in a cigar shop on Fifth Avenue?

Unknown: 50:44

Right? Remember that movie? And I love that movie,

Laura Munson: 50:50

too. I read the screenplay when I was, like, 19 years old, and I was like, Yes, this is my kind of movie. Remember, like, Andre climbs mountains, and then he gets buried alive, and he's, they're sitting lunch and somewhere in New York City, and then at the end, while Sean Wally, you know, he just is like, Yeah, but like, can it just be that your wife makes you a cup of coffee in the morning, you know, and it gets cold, and you go down the street and you get a bar and, you know, in a cigar shop, and it's Like, what I call the holy mundane, yes, because 9% of our existence, so I'm all about receiving the of the holy mundane, and I write about

Tess Callahan: 51:30

it a lot. Oh, wow. Laura, wow, wow. This is

Laura Munson: 51:34

that went all over the place. You can edit that all. No, no, it's,

Tess Callahan: 51:39

it's really moving. I'm I just feel profoundly moved. I actually just listened. I just watched my Dinner With Andre again recently, I love that movie, but and I also, recently, last year, had an amazing experience in a stone circle in Ireland. But I think the point that you're saying is, is the not looking for it like the pure openness, you know, like you're when you're looking for the heart shaped stone, then you don't find the heart shaped stone. And what I want to honor in everything you're saying is your astonishing comfort with the unknown. I think it's very unusual. I think most of us, we like to say it's this or it's that, which is can actually mess with our intuition, I think, and I just everything I hear you saying and what invites in these moments for you, like the moment in the stone circle is the kind of openness to the unknown and then the grown and the sense of channeling and and that how that is no different than making Pasta and riding an elevator in New York City,

Laura Munson: 53:03

and I'm a very deep claustrophobe, so for me to get into an elevator is a big thing. Maybe that's true. Thank you. I just learned some about myself. Tess, thank you. I'm not maybe that's what it is. My religion with the unknown is something that I've been fostering all my life, to the exclusion of the people in my life, support of that. And maybe that's I've always said, like I like to look down the dark alley, but you're right, not most people. And that doesn't mean that I'm not scared of it. So maybe it's early on, and this is in the book to organ fugues I was lucky to share in Boston, please. Stained glass windows are Lafarge and Tiffany's, and I was just the organ was Tess driven by Handel himself. And I was so lucky to be able to sing and all those requiems, and, you know, the handles Messiah and all of that. And as a 20 year old writing her first book, and the choir director who died last year, and he had so many people's lives, his name was Brian Jones, and he's in this book. And we sat there one time, and he was playing those fugues just the two of us, like late night. We he had the key, and we used it. He was full of so much wonder. And he he said, you know, it all comes down to two things. And I said, I think I know what they are, Brian, I was 21 and he said, What? And I said, Fear and love. And he said, Yep. And then we both, at the same time, said, love is greater than fear and love, love will win out. But I think that's what we're talking about. That inner quiver, to me, is a perfect place to land our conversation, from my end at. Is because that's it. Love is greater than fear, whether you're a writer or whether you're following a spiritual practice, or you're coming on a retreat in Montana, or whatever that you do to live on along your path the way that only you can if you can keep that central to who you are, that love is greater than well, then to me, that's everything, and that invites the intuition, that invites the playfulness and invites the Wonder

Tess Callahan: 55:34

Beautiful. Well, that's just astonishing. Laura and so encouraging and life affirming. I really appreciate that. And before we close, I just want to invite you to say anything else you might want to share about the book that's coming out, or your your retreat offerings, or your online offerings. Thanks,

Laura Munson: 55:57

Tess, it's people like you that help people like me, I'll just leave it there. Yeah, well, let's see the wild. Why stories and teachings to uncover your wonder comes out April 8. If this airs before, then please pre order the book. I think a lot of people don't understand. And if you're a writer, it's important for you to know that if you've got a book coming up, pre orders are really important because they they help bookstores figure out what what books might be selling. And so that's often like, they'll stock the bookstore based on pre orders. So that's something that's important. If you're interested in the book, please pre order it. And if you're a writer, and you are promoting your work, you have to look at it like somebody you love. You know it might be itchy, scratchy, uncomfortable to promote yourself. But once it's a book, it's a product, you're promoting something that you love, like a baby, so I feel really comfortable promoting it. You know all about it. As a novelist, the retreats are exquisite. I can speak about them because they are not about me. They are of Me, like the books, but they're ultimately about the retreat and the people who come and the beautiful place. We're on four square miles of gorgeous land in Montana looking into the peaks of Glacier National Park. Those are Haven writing retreats. They're ranked in the very top in the US. They really are. It's not about me, it's about the retreat itself, the program, all of it, I have opened enrollment for my 2025 calendar. And my first one is in March. There are two more spots in the March one, and then we're not doing it until June, because I'm going to be on tour for the wild why? And so if you're interested in coming to Haven, to begin is to email me. We'll go on my website, Laura munson.com and then email me and we'll set up a haven introductory phone call, because you can't just sign up for Haven. And PS, if you want to sign up for a retreat, don't go on one that you can just sign up for. Like, I mean, that's different than a conference. But like, a intimate small group like these are eight people, six to eight people, everybody needs to have a conversation with with me to make sure it's a good fit. And that's why I can call it Haven so those are one hour calls. So Laura at Laura munson.com Laura at Laura Munson com, is how to find me, or you can go on the website. And then there's, you know, a professional email. I get those too, but my personal one, Laura, at Laura Munson com, get on the phone, talk about it, and Haven really meets you where you need to be met. And then the book tour is going to be April, all on the road April and May. And I'll be mostly on the East Coast and Midwest in April, and then in May, I'll be West Coast, and then down down in Texas and southeast so I hope to see you on the road. Thank you, Tess, thank you for what you're doing. Oh,

Tess Callahan: 59:10

it's such a pleasure. And I think you also zoom into book clubs. Is that something you offer? Oh, sure, because that's that strikes me as a perfect book club book the wild. Why? Because there's, it's just a book for our time and who can't relate to this honestly. So it seems like a very rich book for for conversation. So since I noticed that on your website, I'll just toss that in. Oh

Laura Munson: 59:37

yes. Do you want me to zoom into your book club, or even if out on the road, I'm going to be leading, like one day retreats and stuff about wonder, if you want to bring your whole book club there, there's a whole world of possibility. I'll be sending out lots of information so and I promise I'd a pepper your inbox with unnecessary emails. So if you're interested. In all these things, then just sign up, go on my website, Laura munson.com, and then you'll be getting updates about where I am and what I'm up to.

Tess Callahan: 1:00:08

Yes, I can vouch for that, because I've been receiving your newsletter for years, and I just that's how I know about you, and I followed your work and read your work and and I love getting your unlike many other things I get in my inbox. I love your newsletters, and I think you're also on Instagram, you're on Facebook, and you're on sub stack, right?

Laura Munson: 1:00:28

Yes, thank you for that. I yeah, I love sub stack. Sub stack is great for writers, real readers, and real writers are on there, and it feels like I'm in integrity over Don't you feel that way? Yes. I mean substance. It's not just like, you know, write something in 300 words. It's like, it's okay if you go like, my sweet spot for an essay is 2500 words, and I'm happy to put it on sub stack. And sub stack, it's called wonderings with Laura Munson, Facebook, business page, personal page, Instagram, I'm active on I'm very visual, so I love sharing photos of my Montana life, and I'm

Tess Callahan: 1:01:09

Yeah, and the smiling faces at your retreats, yeah? And

Laura Munson: 1:01:12

those are real. Yes, they are real. We take those photos on Saturday night, so they've been there from Wednesday, you know, by Saturday night, they're like, listen, any good retreat, should kind of unbraid you a little bit, not have you come undone, but unbraid you a little and then kind of braid you back together again. And so those smiles come from the feeling of, I think, being braided back together.

Tess Callahan: 1:01:34

Oh, what a beautiful image. Well, Laura, I my, one of my many takeaways from this conversation is that love is stronger than fear, and I think that's just threads through all of the work that you do, in your writing, in your living, in your retreats, and I'm really just honored to have this conversation with you. So thank you. Me

Laura Munson: 1:01:59

too, kindred spirit. May we all find our kindred spirits, which means we have to be open to it. We can't go through life with our arms crossed in front of us. But do have an inner colander with you. Tess, I have no colander at all. I'm happy and I'm excited to have this conversation. Go out to your listeners. Yeah. Thank you so much.

Tess Callahan: 1:02:31

That's it for today. If you enjoyed this episode, please help spread the word. Follow us. Review us. Give us five stars on Apple Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts and subscribe to our writers at the well substack, where we offer short written interviews with authors on similar topics. Huge thanks to Christopher Lloyd Clark for the intro and outro music, and to Eric Fisher for his ever patient and often miraculous audio engineering. And thank you for listening. See you next time you.