Writers at the Well

Novelist Paula Saunders on Starting from Here, and Writing as an Act of Compassion

• Tess Callahan • Season 1 • Episode 8

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Join novelist Paula Saunders as she discusses her moving autobiographical novel Starting from Here, just out from Penguin Random House. A stand-alone sequel to The Distance Home, the novel follows 15-year old René through the challenges of adolescence within the pressure cooker of cultural and socioeconomic stressors. Saunders draws from her own experiences as a ballet dancer. She shares her spiritual journey, particularly her practice of Buddhism, and references beloved teachers teachers Toni Morrison, Doug Unger, and Tobias Wolff. Paula describes how writing has helped her integrate the past, and instilled in her a more compassionate relationship to her younger self and her family of origin.

Paula grew up in Rapid City, South Dakota. She is a graduate of the Syracuse University creative writing program and was awarded a postgraduate Albert Schweitzer Fellowship at SUNY Albany, under Schweitzer chair Toni Morrison. Her first book, The Distance Home, was longlisted for The Center for Fiction First Novel Prize and named one of the best books of the year by Real Simple. She lives in California with her husband. They have two grown daughters.

Learn more about her work at paulasaundersbooks.com. 

Tess Callahan is the author of the novels APRIL & OLIVER and DAWNLAND. She holds an MFA from Bennington College and is a certified Mindfulness Meditation teacher taught by Tara Brach and Jack Kornfield. She offers author interviews on her Substack: https://tesscallahan.substack.com/publish/home, and guided meditations on her sister podcast Heart Haven Meditations, available on Apple, Spotify and elsewhere.

By tapping "like" and "follow" you help others find the show. Thank you for listening!

Host: Tess Callahan
Substack: Writers at the Well
Guided Meditation Podcast: Heart Haven Meditations
Meditations on Insight...

Welcome to Writers at the well, a podcast that offers intimate conversations with authors about how they draw words and images up from the depths of their inner well, how do they move into a flow state? Do they meditate? Walk in nature? Do they do cartwheels? Let's find out. I'm your host. Tess Callahan, author of the novels April and Oliver and Dawn land. I hope you enjoy this deep dive into the inner workings of the creative process. Today, I welcome novelist Paula Saunders. Paula grew up in Rapid City, South Dakota. She's a graduate of the Syracuse University creative writing program and was awarded a post graduate Albert Schweitzer fellowship at the State University of New York at Albany under Schweitzer chair. Toni Morrison, her first book, the distance home, was long listed for the Center for fiction first novel prize and named one of the best books of the year by real simple also one of my favorite books of the year. She is currently a resident of California with her husband, and she has two grown daughters, and her new novel, a sequel to the distance home, starting from here, is just out from Penguin Random House. Welcome Paula, thank you, Tess, I'm so happy to be here, and thank you so much for having me really. Oh, it's a delight. I love the book so much, and it's really an honor to have you here. Thank you. And would you like to tell us a little bit about starting from here?

Paula Saunders:

Yeah, as you mentioned, like starting from here is a sequel to the distance home, though it stands alone. I believe it is a story of a young woman coming of age, really, from the ages of about 15 to about 18. So it kind of takes her through those kind of difficult adolescent years where all of us have to go through so many changes and make so many decisions about what our lives are going to be. But for this particular girl, she's on her own. She's left home to study ballet, and because of that, I feel like her experiences and her example are kind of set in relief, so that we see really, we see the influence of the culture on her and on all of her decisions, and we see the constraints of the culture and The socioeconomic class and all of that kind of thing on her, particularly because she's alone. These seem these things seem to be kind of magnified in that way. So I hope that it shows the things that we all share as young women, as young girls, becoming young women, the kind of challenges we face, and it kind of puts a spotlight a little bit on on the difficulties that we all go through. But she doesn't have the support that that maybe I hope most young women have, so you see the struggles a little more clearly. Yeah,

Tess Callahan:

your first book, the distance home also magnified the cultural impact of events and beliefs and norms on a particular family in a really powerful way. And Renee is one of the point of view characters in that book, and here she has her own point of view. Would you like to say about anything about point of view or why you chose her as your protagonist. And also, I understand the book has some autobiographical threads, so anything you'd like to say about any of that, yeah, sure, those two are definitely connected. Yeah, the first book, the point of view, kind of shifts around. I think that it kind of moves between the characters and that kind of the first book gives kind of a whole family, actually, it goes up to the deaths of most of the characters in that family. But the storyline actually ends when the girl is 15.

Paula Saunders:

This book, starting from here, picks up with that 15 year old girl leaving home. And that's because that follows my path. That is what I did. I was, I was a ballet dancer when I was younger. Left home at 15 to study because I lived in South Dakota. That's part of what the title is about, starting from here, because she this girl has to start from a place where there really isn't any basis in classical ballet, and the history of classical ballet and the form and the struggle and the path. So she doesn't have any of that kind of information, but she has a talent and she has a will. And so she's sent away from home early to study, which is, you know, both a great blessing and also a curse, because now she's so separated from her. Family. But so it follows this young girl and sticks now, mainly with her completely, actually with her point of view. You're really following her story, because she's now living with families who are not her family. So it is really all about struggling to be an artist as an outsider in every kind of possible way you could imagine. That's I think those things are tied together. It the point of view follows the young woman, because that's my experience, because it is autobiographical.

Tess Callahan:

Yeah, it's really striking how she she is born into this context where she really has no there's no scaffolding at all for her as a dancer, only the bearish threads. And so it's all self created in this powerful way that's extraordinarily difficult and also brings out her strength. It's both things. She's incredibly vulnerable. A lot of really disturbing things happen, and she's also incredibly strong and determined. And I wonder if those experiences actually draw that out of her and strengthen her in some ways. What do you think? Yeah,

Paula Saunders:

that's a really interesting question. I don't know. I think I was a pretty strong child. I think maybe my mother was pretty happy that I went away, because I think I was a pretty difficult teenager. I've always been pretty opinionated and kind of like, pretty sure I'm right. It's not I'm not saying these are good characteristics. They're just saying that they came with me, and they did help me through those times, and I did need them. So personally, that's very true, but I do think that there was a kind of a deeper quality of introspection that I really got in touch with through that time, that I that I needed to spend away from my family, and I also needed to develop my skill as a dancer, I think like there was some deeper introspection that had to come, because suddenly you know how you are as a child in your own family, you're pretty central. Each child is pretty central in their own way. And now for me, I was living with families I didn't know. So there was no question of not even being central, even having a voice. That I think kind of drove that kind of external looking that I always did, and external examination that I always did. It drove it a little bit inward, I think, yeah, so that I think was maybe the more developmentally, the more positive aspect of that. And I really, really am grateful for that and appreciative of that. Now I think it's really influenced my life tremendously. Yeah, so, yeah. So I think that was more the direction it went for me. Yeah,

Tess Callahan:

that's fascinating. Her need to be self reliant, and you really feel her aloneness in those households. She's she's not anywhere near Central. She's almost in the closet. Yeah, and yeah, I can see how that deepened her well, in a way. And yours, yeah, exactly, exactly. But to her credit as well, it doesn't always happen that way when we're met with challenges, right? I don't know how I mean, this is getting, like, way off in the weeds, but I don't know how I feel about, like, how we're born, or what we're born with, or all of that kind of stuff. I know with my children, I just feel so fortunate because my children were born as they are, and they are like completely the nicest people, the dearest people you could ever imagine, meet, be connected with. They're wonderful people. I don't know how they got that way. They just came to me that way, and I feel like I came with my own energies too. And one of my energies is that kind of like, I'm a little combative, I'm a little, you know, I'm a little self assured, you know, I don't know where it comes from, but there, that's what it kind of is. Well, I just want to say, I think those are really great qualities for a young woman, or any woman, especially now just Yes. Hats off to strong young women. Yes, exactly. Amen. I Yes. I agree. I agree, and I feel exactly the same way about my children. I always thought it's more it's got to be more nurture the nature until they popped out completely different human beings, like whole already, like the personality was all there. It's extraordinary.

Paula Saunders:

It is. It really, is it really is miraculous. It's incredible. Yeah, yeah.

Tess Callahan:

So that leads me to i. Oh, well, I know that you have a deep spiritual practice and that you have practiced Buddhism, so I did want to so this, in this conversation, I wanted to talk to you both about your book, obviously, and craft and and all of that which we've started on, and also this other deeper layer of what sources your creativity and your spiritual practices. And you know, this question of who we are, who we pop into the world as it also speaks to karma? Yeah, so there's a whole bunch of stuff I just threw at you, but respond in any way.

Paula Saunders:

Well, let's see, yes, I do try to practice Buddhism. I'm definitely a practitioner, which means I practice and I don't practice as well as I likely should. I have all those kinds of feelings about it, but I pray that it really is what motivates me to work. You know, really is kind of the deeper need of my working. I think I've mentioned before that I ran into a quote from this woman who's a she's a priest in the Cheyenne tradition, and it went something like, If you can't bring your experiences into your life, and then you're just being a dilettante. And I that struck me really, because I felt like, yeah, that really is what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to really make this life that I have meaningful in some way, which means to me, you know, opening up things like compassion and kindness and understanding for others and for myself and for the world, for everything you know, just in general, just opening up that well of compassion. So that's kind of what I try to do, and I certainly try to do it in my writing. I had a lot of struggles with my first family, and I think part of this young girl, and starting from here, part of her motivation in leaving home is getting away from the turmoil of her first family, she just felt like, If only I could get away, I could get my feet on the ground. And really, you know, that was kind of the feeling. It didn't turn out to be the case, but it really was a motivation for her. So in exploring those kinds of things, I come to a lot more understanding of myself as a young woman, 1516, 1718, those are difficult years for young women. I haven't shared this before, but I'll tell I'll share it with you. We were going to church when our little, when our girls were little. We were at a Lutheran church, and we were at a potluck, which I always loved. The potlucks, you know, they're so social and kind of fun. And we're standing there, and a woman whose kids were older than our kids, she was standing in front of me in line, and she was talking to another woman, and she said, Oh, so and so my daughter's just turned 13. Oh, I just can't stand it. She's such a b word now. And I was like, Oh, my God, that poor girl. And I just was, I just like was welled up with emotion for this poor young daughter who I identified with so strongly, because that was what our culture puts on teenage girls, that they're difficult, that they're hormonal, that there all this stuff, and I really like then devoted my life to rebelling against that. That is really not the case, and we need to understand that, and we need to understand and I'm going to get preachy. I don't mean to do that, but we need to understand that these young adolescent women need support. They need our support. They need our understanding. They need our help. They're going through a lot. So, um, so yeah. So look centering this particular girl, Renee, in relief, away from her family, really, in the turmoil of the culture, like a baby in a battlefield, as we say in Buddhism. You know, as a baby in a battlefield, you can see the battlefield maybe more clearly. What are the pressures on this girl? What does she have to do? She has to succeed or fail. Those are her only two options. Why? Because culturally, those are our only two options. She has to become sexual somehow. Why? Because there's a pressure to become sexual as a young woman, you know, there are all these things she has to do, and she has to figure out how to get away from her family and make a life of her own that doesn't include that kind of turmoil that she experienced as a as a girl. So that's a lot. It is a lot, and I think all young women are going through those kinds of struggles. So anyway, I shared that story with you. I don't usually share it, but no, I

Tess Callahan:

appreciate it. And really, your whole book, I mean, starting from here, is a kind of love story to young women, and it's, you can feel that it's written as an act of compassion, because although Renee has very particular challenges and she's. Is alienated. You know, she's alone. I think in some fundamental ways, the challenges are the same I do too for all girls coming of age. And I'm not sure that the society has gotten any easier on girls or boys. Frankly,

Paula Saunders:

yes, exactly right. I just I don't have the experience to speak to a boy's experience, but I do have the experience to speak to a girl's experience. And yes, there has to be some kind of changing, loosening up

Tess Callahan:

humanity expressed in our expectations of young people, yeah. So with Renee, you feel it. You feel the financial pressure, you feel the sexual pressure, you feel the social pressure, you feel the familial pressure of coming at her from all angles, and she's so determined, even to her own self harm at times to succeed. It's really a very powerful ride we take with her. And I think writing itself is an act of compassion, because when else do we have the chance to be so intimately inside another consciousness? Yes, yes. We live in these little bubbles that we believe are separate and solid and distinct, you know, but to have that experience of reading and to live in someone else and really feel their feelings, and we definitely feel that to Renee is really powerful.

Paula Saunders:

Yeah, I agree with that's wonderful. Yeah.

Tess Callahan:

So would you like to say any more about Buddhism and how you came so you were in this Lutheran Church?

Paula Saunders:

Oh, yeah, I forgot, yes, we were in a Lutheran church. And do you know they have that thing called spiritual direction in Christianity? Yes. So I wanted to do some kind of spiritual direction. So the pastor in our Lutheran Church directed me to a Catholic nun for spiritual direction. So I went to this woman. She was lovely. I talked to her for about two hours, and at the end, she handed me a cassette tape. It was way back in the day of Thich Nhat Hanh, it was the funniest thing. And so I never saw the woman again. But I played the cassette tape, I think every day, this interview with Thich Nhat Hanh. I played it when I was driving in the car, and I listened and listened and listened. And then I started reading. And I started, you know, reading Eastern thought and and then I said, I want to start a a meditation, Christian meditation group at our church. So I started a Christian meditation group at our church, and all the teenagers signed up, and it was so sweet. We had such a fun time, but nobody knew what we were doing. And I was kind of like, okay, well, I'll lead the first one, and then we'll just go round robin. Everybody has a leadership turn, and people just kind of drifted away because nobody knew what was we were supposed to do. So after that, I realized I needed to look into finding a teacher. And so then I I got more and more and more interested in Buddhism from there. But yeah,

Tess Callahan:

well, good for that Catholic nun for having the open mindedness.

Paula Saunders:

I mean, Isn't it astonishing? I was very, very sweet as she could kind of see something in me that I couldn't see in myself. And I really appreciate her for that. And yeah, very grateful for

Tess Callahan:

her. It also points out how these little, tiny moments in our lives, these little turns, can open up into extraordinarily consequential paths, right? I mean, if you hadn't decided to go for her for spiritual direction, if she hadn't given you to I mean, maybe, maybe Buddhism would have come your way anyway, but maybe not. And look how meaningful it's been to you, exactly, right? And you know, I guess the thing I have to add is, I think I've been looking for Buddhism since I was in high school. I was really trying to learn how to meditate, even when I was 17, I was trying to figure that out, but I never had the avenue. I could never quite figure out the way to do it. And somehow that Catholic nun really gave me a great gift. She really did. And yes, totally

Paula Saunders:

either karmic or serendipitous. Yeah, right, yeah,

Tess Callahan:

beautiful. And so I hear in that also part of your determination, like you, even as a, you know, high school student, you had the sense of something, you maybe without being able to name it, you knew you were searching for something. And we feel that in a powerful way in Renee. And also you describe. Yourself as an obsessive rewriter in your fiction. So I'm seeing this through line of rigor and determination that maybe permeates both your writing and your experience as a dancer, and maybe your experience as a meditator, I don't know, but is there a connection there

Paula Saunders:

between the dancing and the writing? Yes, definitely. Yeah, yeah. I don't know how to describe it, except that I do love that kind of focused challenge, and I do love that kind of one pointed path where you really focus in on one thing, and that's where your attention is. And I like that kind of concentration, and perhaps that has something to do with meditation too, but it suits me. I do. I do multitask. I'm a good multitasker and I'm a good planner, but it kind of drives me crazy. I get I get real flighty, you know, and I get real high up in the air, like when I'm multitasking. If I can do one thing and kind of dive deep down, then I'm much more at ease and comfortable.

Tess Callahan:

Yeah, same, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right, yeah. I can see a connection. Because, I mean, I can only imagine with dancing, the kind of intense focus that must be necessary with each everything matters so much, right? I mean, it's well described in the in the novel, how she has to pay attention to every part of her body and where she's moving in space and and with writing, I I know you're very focused on sentence, right? And the beauty of the individual sentence at hand. And then in meditation, there's also this, like, one pointed thing, right? You can't be anywhere but where you are at the moment, where you're not meditating.

Paula Saunders:

Though, I find myself in so many places in meditation. Oh, my goodness, right? So many different places. And then you just, I mean, I was kind of thinking about meditation the other day, and I was thinking, Well, you know, the one thing I do well at meditation is I keep trying. I kind of keep Tess. The only thing I do well, because I'll miss, I'll miss sessions. And, you know, have take time off, and I come back and I'm distracted, and my thoughts are going everywhere, and but the one thing I I do is I keep trying. So that's like writing too. That's like writing for me very much, so

Tess Callahan:

Exactly. And that's all that really matters, right? And, yeah, Pema Chodron says that that actually the sweet spots are where you drift off, and then you notice that you've drifted off and you gently call yourself back. That's actually where the juice is, right, right. That's beautiful. We don't have to fight with those moments Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So I'm curious how for you, memory transmutes to the page. It seems like this, your family of origin and your young years is an eternal well of material for you. And I'm just curious how it makes its way from the way it lives in your mind to sentences. I don't know if that's a question you can answer, but it's definitely a curiosity I have. Okay, that's a good question, but it

Paula Saunders:

is difficult to answer. I have to say, I'm not sure I can answer it, you know, other than just to say, I just start writing and kind of see where it goes. My process is very organic. I'll find something I'm interested in. I'm interested in this particular story, kind of my autobiographical story, because, maybe because I want it to be meaningful and I want to find the deeper meaning in it, because it was fairly chaotic, especially during this particular period. But I don't know quite how that gets into sentences. Once I get rolling, it's easier, but I have to let myself, like everyone I think I have to let myself write badly in order to find a place where I can try to write. Well, those are things that are really important to remember and really difficult to remember, especially for me when I'm just starting out on a project, when I'm when I'm getting going in a project, okay, I can I can keep going. I can feel where we are. I'm kind of like stumbling around in the dark a bit, but I know the direction, but to get started is difficult. I don't know if I should go on from here, but I wrote this is like the first half of the book that I actually wrote. I started during the pandemic, and I wrote this.

Unknown:

Whole story,

Paula Saunders:

Book Two, which is this one, and Book Three, that one as well as one book. And it was just way too much. It was just too heavy. So I had to divide it into two, which is was my plan in the first place. The only thing that got in the way was the pandemic. So I didn't have anything to do. So I just kept going. So anyway, so now I have to figure out a way to get back to that third book

Tess Callahan:

that's fascinating, because this book, starting from here, just ends on such a beautiful, complete moment. So hats off to you for finding the place. You know, if you had book two and book three all as one, finding the place to close this moment, it also in a way that definitely opens out to the next. I do want to know what, what's coming next for Renee.

Paula Saunders:

Yeah, good. Thank you. Thank you. I hope so. That's probably the deeper for me. The deeper meaning of the title is, you know, she's at her beginning when she leaves home. She's at the beginning of her journey, and she's at the end of the book. She's at the beginning of her journey once again, like we're all at the beginning of our journeys all the time. So I like that meaning for the title as well, but that's beautiful, yeah, so, but the third one, like I said, is going to be kind of a difficult, now, difficult transition to get started on how to go back to what material in what order with what you know, like all that's going to be on my plate, which I'm looking forward to,

Tess Callahan:

yeah, I appreciate the invitation to get messy. And, you know, doesn't have to be perfect. It's inevitably not going to be we're not looking for perfection in that right early draft. Yeah. And do you find working with your life in writing has changed the way you remember things, or has has your perspective shifted on your younger self and what you went through?

Paula Saunders:

Yes, my perspective has shifted so completely. Yeah, this book also is a lot about this young girl's relationship with her mother, and my relationship with my mother was difficult, and I think we had a difficult relationship through most of our lives, and now she's passed away maybe 10 years ago, and you know, now I'm kind of looking back and understanding, having a better understanding of where she was in her life with me when I was a child. And that's because of writing it. It's really because of writing it. I'm writing it, and I'm seeing her and I'm feeling her, and I'm kind of like, Oh, that was a lot. That was a lot of pressure. You know, she had an alcoholic son, she had a talented daughter who moved away early. She had another child to raise. She had a business she was trying to start. She had an authoritarian husband who was always fighting with her. She had, you know, she was one of these women born in the 30s, had her children in the 50s and early 60s, and was vivacious. She was a very vivacious person, and she wanted to kind of join that kind of feminist freedom movement that was going on at that time, but her culture didn't really allow her to. So she suffered from that, and then was stuck in these kind of this kind of harrowing circumstance in her own family life that she was trying to make work, you know. So there was a lot of understanding that came. And I don't know about you, but I have in my family line a legacy of very angry women, very angry old women, you know, and very happy when their husbands die. This is the, this is the this is the, this is the Midwestern legacy for me. So this is a legacy that needs to be changed and challenged and looked at very carefully, because none of us wants to live like that, and she didn't want to live like that, but that is where she ended up. So I just feel like I would say, God bless her, you know, if I I would say God bless her. Because, you know, it's just a difficult, difficult situation. Yeah,

Tess Callahan:

and you can see Eve's fire in Renee, yeah, in it manifests in a completely different way. But, yeah, yeah, in my family line, it's a long line of women who should have been angrier, but I feel what you're saying. With the character of Eve, there's so much compassion and paradox. I really appreciate the paradox of her. Mm. And in the book in general, there's this constant tension between, in one sense, everyone is doing their full out best with who they are and what they've been given. And it's fall short, like, could they be doing better? Yes, but are they doing their best? Yes. And like living in the space between those I think is very juicy. As a reader, you know, my mind wants to flip to one or the other, and it keeps me there. That's nice, yeah, so I can feel that whatever process or inner work you got we went through to portray Eve with that complexity is

Paula Saunders:

has really paid off. Thank you. Yeah, I hope so I do, and I think here's a good time too. To mention the whole socioeconomic issue, because, you know, one can't expect people of a certain socio economic and educational class to act like people of a completely different socioeconomic and educational class. And so that makes a difference. My family didn't have the resources to undertake the kind of like largesse that they tried to give to me. They didn't have the resources to do that, and they didn't have the knowledge of how to do that, and so really they did try their best, but really it wasn't enough, you know? So those things are really the case, and nobody's fault, yeah? Just like, you know, just really, like, one of those things where I see people who are born into a different kind of circumstance have a completely different kind of outcome. So, yeah,

Tess Callahan:

so I don't want you to give anything away about the next book, but that whole question of people can't act other than they are within a different paradigm or different context. You know, Renee, at the end of this book, yes, she's starting, and she's also, wow, she's got a lot ahead of her. I can feel that

Paula Saunders:

all you just said, yeah, yeah, she does. She has a lot ahead of her.

Tess Callahan:

So I'm wondering too, what has supported you as a writer? So you have a meditation practice, and do you also have writing groups or reading groups or fellowships, or just anything along the line that you feel has nurtured you and has allowed you to continually deepen your well, expand your sense of possibilities in your writing.

Paula Saunders:

Yes, I have to say you know that my teachers have been an incredible source of inspiration and encouragement for me. And I would say, you know, Doug Unger, who's at the UNLV, he was a wonderful teacher for me when I first came to Syracuse University. He encouraged me in so many ways. I was, at that time, trying to write a story, and it had a little bit of sex in it, and I was being very kind of shy and circumspect about it. And he, he kind of, I was in his office, and he said, Hey, listen, you know, even like, Cosmo on the cover, they say, oh, women's orgasms, blah, blah, blah, you don't have to be, you know? I was like, oh, yeah, that's true. I don't have to be so shy about all of this stuff, I can actually speak what I want to say. So he was the first kind of real writing teacher I had, and he was lovely, and he's a lovely, lovely person. And Tobias Wolfe was another teacher who is still a wonderful, dear, dear friend, and I just love him to pieces. And he's been so encouraging all these years about my work. You know, after the first book we were, he was, he and his wife were over at our house, and we're standing outside, and, you know, I'm saying, Oh, this book, he said, I'm so glad you did it. You're such a good writer. And it was just meant a lot to me, you know, really a lot. And then there was Toni Morrison, who, you know, also was an incredible advocate for my work and always encouraging me in very blunt ways. She's a little bit like we were. I would never say we were friends ever, but she was a very, very wonderful mentor for me, and she was very strong with me. She was, she was tough with me. She got on me, and she really, really wanted me to get something done. So she expected that of me. She said so herself. So I was very happy to publish that book while she was still here with us, and happy to meet with her. And she actually. Actually it was, it was really funny. We were sitting in her living room, and she decided to give a reading of one of my first reviews for that first book. And it was the most beautiful reading. And she was, she's a theater person, you know. So she was very theatrical about this reading. It was very embarrassing. And then at the end, I said, Do you know what I like about what I like most about what you just said? She's like, No, tell me. So I was like, that said something nice about the sentences. I said, because of the I said, the beautiful sentences. And she pointed at me real strongly, and she said, that's the writer in you, oh, you know. And I was like, it just loved these people so much. They have been, they'll make me cry. They've just been beautiful people in my life.

Tess Callahan:

And they saw you, they saw your work, and yeah, and that her toughness sounds like it was out of her belief,

Paula Saunders:

yes, yes, it was out of her respect for the work that I did, yeah, and her respect for me, and I really admire her for that. So there are those people who encourage me always. And then, of course, there's my family. All four of us are writers. My husband's a writer. My two daughters are both writers, so we read each other's work and we help each other other than that, I have everything I need. That's how I feel. I don't need to reach outside my environment for support. And I'm really grateful for that.

Tess Callahan:

That's beautiful. And you, you know, attracted that to yourself. That's, yeah, that's great. I have a writing teacher now who

Unknown:

is very tough. Oh my god, heading into the boxing ring.

Tess Callahan:

Oh my god. But He's great. He's great. Though I really appreciate, I absolutely appreciate, what he's saying. So, yeah, I mean, it's, that's part of, I'm sure it was the same with dancing teachers, right? Oh, it

Paula Saunders:

was, it was a lot of, a lot of people can say, you know, how can you take that rough criticism? And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I'm ready bring it, you know, I want to, I want to hear what we're doing here. It's meaningful to me, yeah. And that was the same with dancing teachers. I think that prepared me for this, because I understood as a dancer, my first dance teacher would always say, if you're getting corrected, that means you're doing well, that you're getting you are getting the attention. You are drawing the attention of the teacher. The teacher thinks you can do it, you know, you can do it better than you're doing it right now. And that's a that's a plus, that's a win. So I don't know, I always love that kind of thing. Yeah,

Tess Callahan:

that's applies so well to both art forms. Yeah, it does, yeah, it does, yeah, yeah. Would

Paula Saunders:

you like to read an excerpt for us? Oh, sure, sure, sure. I'll just read a little bit from the very beginning. And this first section is called all the right reasons, though, Al objected to the idea of his son traipsing around in a tutu. Even rolled Lian in a local dance dancing class, figuring that since Lian was always tripping on the playground and running into things ending up with stitches, concentrating on where his body was in relation to what was around him would be good for him. Of course, Renee wanted to do everything her older brother did, but she was too young for school, too young for dance class, so she skip and hop twirling around the living room as Bobby and sissy pokered through the champagne bubbles on the Lawrence Welk Show Al's favorite making al chuckle and Eve stop whatever she was doing to laugh along, always hogging the spotlight, Eve would say, shaking her head as Leon let the screen door slam behind him and took off on his bike to meet up with the neighbor kids. Years later, after Leon and Renee had been studying together night after night at what may have been the world's most unlikely Ballet School, the only one for more than 300 miles on the great unbroken plains of South Dakota. Renee was in pas de deux class, turning whirling through multiple pirouettes on point under the power of her brother's hands. Leon was tall and strong with dark wavy hair and deep brown eyes, and he knew just how to keep her on balance, an unspoken unerring bond linking their weight and movement, one to the other. And as she spun through rotation, she never could have managed on her own, the world was reduced to a single point of light, everything quiet, then glissade and lift, and she was flying from there straight into pique arabesque and torgitte. Leon effortlessly setting her up onto his shoulder, and after a mere blink of suspension, she was diving headlong nose to the ground. Leon catching her at just the right moment, placing her directly onto her point for a single beat of sublime trembling balance. Was there anything else like. It on earth there was not that's just the opening, beautiful,

Tess Callahan:

wow. It gives us such a sense of the richness of the writing, the physicality of it, and also that moment. It just makes me want to be a dancer, or a moment in my life like, I mean, I danced for fun, but that kind of transcendent experience, really. And with her brother, it's so moving,

Paula Saunders:

yeah, yeah, really something special to share.

Tess Callahan:

And he's such a beautiful character. He's he's much more prevalent in the first book. And wow, we really feel for him, what a complex person he is, as well and beautifully painted compassionately. And, yeah, I mean, I don't know your actual past, but it just feels like there's a very powerful authenticity in the writing. It's not sugar coated, it's not dramatized, it's just very honest. It's very honest. That's the feeling I get. Yeah, beautiful.

Paula Saunders:

Thank you. I think the Lian character is as a character that I do wish I could penetrate more fully. I think that's I often have a fantasy of writing a book just based on the Lian character, and that would be a big point of growth for me, I think a big developmental point, if I could accomplish something like that, but we'll see if I can get to it. Yeah, it's a really complicated, beautiful and sad story. So yeah,

Tess Callahan:

well, you mentioned earlier in the interview that you know about his alcoholism, and yeah, I think in the distance home, for me, you really show how I once had this Jungian analyst say this to me when I was in college. Actually, I went to him for to analyze a dream, and he said, for people who live in big psychic space, like Grand Canyon psychic space, if they have the tools to navigate the space, then they're a Picasso or Bach. And if they don't, they are the person you know, the unhoused person sleeping on the sidewalk. Wow. And I think you convey that with Leon, that he's be big, sensitive soul, and you know the harshness of the constraints on him. He doesn't have the tools. He doesn't have the tools to climb down into that canyon of his own psyche and explore and hone and craft and and that we see that in the world, right? We see sensitive souls all the time get crushed.

Paula Saunders:

Yes, exactly. And that's what kind of would bring me back to the thing we were talking about nature versus nurture, because I do think that that's a point where nurture takes precedence. You know? I mean, I think that these kinds of people don't necessarily lack the tools, but the tools in them are they're never given the tools and never shown the tools. They're never allowed to build the tools. As a matter of fact, I think our culture and just elements of our culture, make sure that they can't build the tools. They make it impossible, and they don't want them to build the tools. So I that's that's a point where I would say, yes, nature is there 100% and then nurture also has a role that's really important. Because I think with with the Lean character, those tools could have been there. Yes, my my firm belief

Tess Callahan:

that really comes through, I think, in the distance home, and as you're saying, how it's a threat to society, there are forces that don't want the cultivation of that kind of sensitivity and nuance, because it threatens paradigms. Yeah,

Paula Saunders:

exactly, exactly, yeah, it's almost like, I mean, I don't know if this is true, but it seems interesting that the strength of a sensitive man threatens patriarchy. You know, there's that possibility. I don't know that's what it that's what it feels like in. In, in, in my intuition and my instinct, it feels like that that is somehow what we're trying to wipe out.

Tess Callahan:

Yes, the strength of a sensitive man and the strength of a powerful woman, these two things are both very, very threatening. Very

Paula Saunders:

threatening. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Tess Callahan:

Oh, what a rich conversation. Paula, I feel like I could go on all day. It's been so fun. And how your your work opens up this kind of conversation. That's what I want to say. Your your work opens up the questions that we need to be asking, not in a mental, heady way, but in a heart centered way where we can really metabolize them and be curious about them. Yeah,

Paula Saunders:

I hope so. That's wonderful. Thank you for saying that. Tess, that means a lot. Thank you. And

Tess Callahan:

is there anything you'd like to share that we haven't gotten to? I gotten to about your work or this book, or how about your upcoming reading events?

Paula Saunders:

Oh yeah, I have some upcoming reading events. Let's see. I have one in at skylight books in LA on August 27 and I have one at bookshop Santa Cruz on September 4.

Tess Callahan:

And people can

Paula Saunders:

find them on your website. I guess they can find them on my website. That's a better way to do it. I'll link that in the show notes. Thank you. Yeah, because I don't, I don't, I can't remember. There's, there's a number of them. I'm getting to go down south. Great this time to Oxford and Jackson and past Christian Mississippi. It should be fun. I've never been there, so they've got a good friend there, so it'll be fun.

Tess Callahan:

Very nice. That's fantastic. Yeah. And how can people find out more about you and your work? Is your website the best place?

Paula Saunders:

I think my website is probably the best place. It's just Paula saundersbooks.com okay. You can find, you know, both of the books there. You can find the reviews. You can find some interviews and and stuff like that. Yeah, if you, if you want to, and I'm going to post, I am hope, I hope I'm going to post things for this book too. Things are just kind of coming up, so I'll be posting things like

Tess Callahan:

that. Great. Okay, so I will put your website in the show notes as well. Thank you. Tess and I highly recommend everyone to read both books. But you don't have to read the distance home, though, to to really enjoy starting from here. But they're both incredibly beautiful books. Thank you and and if you can find Paula at one of her events, highly recommend that. And thank you for such a beautiful and generous conversation. Really sharing from the heart. It's very meaningful to me and an honor to have this chat with you me

Paula Saunders:

too. It was really lovely and wonderful to get to talk at length with you about the meaningful the things that mean something to me from the book. So thank you very much. Tess, I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you, Paula,

Tess Callahan:

that's it for today. If you enjoyed this episode, please help spread the word. Follow us. Review us. Give us five stars on Apple Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And subscribe to our writers at the well substack, where we offer short written interviews with authors on similar topics. Huge thanks to Christopher Lloyd Clark for the intro and outro music, and to Eric Fisher for his ever patient and often miraculous audio engineering. And thank you for listening. See you next time you.