Writers at the Well
Interviews with authors about their experience "at the well." How do they draw words and images up from the depths? What underground streams fuel them? How they know when they are aligned, in flow, attuned to the will of their story, and when they are off course? Do they incorporate meditation or other forms of spiritual practice to keep them connected to their truth? Let's find out!
Writers at the Well is a sister to Tess's meditation podcast, Heart Haven Meditations: which offers practices that draw from modern neuroscience and ancient wisdom traditions.
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Tess Callahan, Ed.M., MFA, is the author of the novel APRIL & OLIVER and DAWNLAND, and a certified Mindfulness Meditation teacher. You can find her at: https://tesscallahan.com/.
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Writers at the Well
Andrew Holecek on the Power of Darkness to Unleash Creativity
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Dr. Andrew Holecek discusses Dark Retreat—a Buddhist practice of spending extended periods in complete darkness—and its transformative effects on creativity, healing, and spiritual insight. Dark Retreat is “big medicine” not to be undertaken lightly. Like any retreat, its power relies on its integration. His new book is:
Dr. Holecek is an interdisciplinary scholar-practitioner in Tibetan Buddhism and other nondual wisdom traditions. He is the Resident Contemplative Scholar at the Institute for Advanced Consciousness Studies, and a research consultant for the Cognitive Neuroscience Program at Northwestern University. His work involves studies on dream yoga and the practice of dark retreat. Dr. Holecek is a member of the American Academy of Sleep Medicine, the author of nine books, and a concert pianist. He has completed the Tibetan Buddhist three-year retreat and is a frequent subject in scientific studies on meditation and lucid dreaming. His work integrates ancient wisdom traditions with contemporary perspectives, aiming to help individuals navigate spiritual challenges and end-of-life experiences. He is currently writing a book on “gray” retreat—a more gradual approach to dark retreat. He holds degrees in classical music, biology, and a doctorate in dental surgery.
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Tess Callahan is the author of the novels APRIL & OLIVER and DAWNLAND. She holds an MFA from Bennington College and is a certified Mindfulness Meditation teacher taught by Tara Brach and Jack Kornfield. She offers author interviews on her Substack: https://tesscallahan.substack.com, and guided meditations on her sister podcast Heart Haven Meditations, available on Apple, Spotify and elsewhere.
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Hello, friends. Before we dive into this conversation with Dr Andrew Holecek, I want to offer a quick introduction to our topic, dark retreat. Dark retreat is an ancient practice found across many traditions, particularly Tibetan Buddhism. Some people describe it as a kind of sober psychedelic. The retreatant voluntarily spends an extended period of time, often about three days or more in complete uninterrupted darkness. We're not talking about sleep mask or a dimly lit room. This is total darkness in a specially sealed cabin or cave or room you have a bedroom and a bathroom where you literally cannot see your hand in front of your face. But unlike psychedelics, if it ever becomes too overwhelming, you can simply turn on the light or step outside for as long as you need to. There is no shame in that these cabins are often well appointed. You have pillows and blankets and yoga mats, sometimes some other exercise equipment, musical instruments. The food is often delicious, and your food is delivered to you in darkness, and at that time, you have a chance to talk through the door with your facilitator about whatever is coming up for you. And it's very important to do dark retreat with a skilled guide. And I'll link several reputable programs in the show notes. So here's the core premise. When we remove our most dominant sense, our sight, it forces us inward, causing a profound shift in consciousness. So it becomes a deeply somatic experience, a bodily experience, without the constant stream of visual noise anchoring us to ordinary waking reality. The mind begins to generate its own light visions, heightened dream states and experiences that many practitioners describe as doorways into the deeper nature of the mind itself. Dark retreat makes space for spiritual and psychological insights, profound healing and incredible creative inspiration. In fact, my guest's new book, which he's about to tell us about, came to him as a complete download during a dark retreat in the Tibetan tradition, especially, it's considered one of the most powerful accelerants on the spiritual path. I've done a dark retreat myself, and I'll share a bit about my experience in this interview. For me, it was both a very powerful and very gentle and subtle experience a real paradox. So when the chance came to speak with a renowned expert who has just written an entire book on the subject, I left at it, and I hope you enjoy our conversation with great delight, I welcome Dr Andrew Holecek, who joins us today to discuss his new book, Total Eclipse of the mind, unleashing the power of darkness for creativity, healing and transformation. Dr halachek is an interdisciplinary scholar, practitioner in Tibetan, Buddhist. Him and other non dual wisdom traditions. He is the resident contemplative scholar at the Institute for Advanced consciousness studies at a research consultant for the cognitive neuroscience program at Northwestern University. His work involves studies on Dream Yoga and the practice of dark retreat, which is what we'll be discussing today. Dr hollich is a member of the American Academy of Sleep Medicine, the author of nine books and a concert pianist. He has completed the Tibetan Buddhist three year retreat, and is a frequent subject in scientific studies on meditation and lucid dreaming. His work integrates ancient wisdom traditions and Contemporary Perspectives, aiming to help individuals navigate spiritual challenges and end of life experiences. He is currently writing a second book on dark retreat. He holds degrees in classical music, biology and a doctorate in dental surgery. Welcome. Andrew Tess,
Andrew Holecek:thanks for having me so fun to spend time with you.
Tess Callahan:I'm been looking forward to this for a long time. So would you like to tell us a little bit about your new book and maybe what prompted you to write it at this time?
Andrew Holecek:Sure, happy to Yeah. So I have been engaging in this somewhat unusual type of practice, which maybe we can unpack for close to 30 years. It'll be 30 years this July that I started, and I've been going in exploring the nocturnal mind dark retreat annually. And two and a half years ago or so, I had a particularly impactful journey. I think it was a 10 day retreat. I usually go in anywhere from 10 to, who knows how many days, sometimes quite a few days, weeks. And in this particular one like you mentioned, I've written nine previous books, and literally towards the I think it was day eight, day nine, the book that will be coming out in May of 2026, just kind of burst into my mind, you know, like alleged Mozart symphony, right? And so it was a marvelous experience where, yeah, just boom, there was. And so the timing around it was, was really quite interesting, because there's a lot of stuff in the zeitgeist. May not be a completely in the event horizon of all your listeners yet, but movie stars, celebrities, tech tycoons, billionaires and whatnot, more and more people are dipping in, into darker trees and coming out and starting to riff on it and post on it. And some of it is a little bit less than ideal. It's not like I have the AAA gold standard, but I have been doing it for a tremendous amount of time, and now I'm working in concert with a number of academics, academic institutions and scientific establishments to study it. There are ways, definitely ways, to do this practice wrong. And some of the stuff that's coming out was like, whoa. This, this is really misleading. This, this sensationalistic, you know, exaggerated approach just isn't very helpful. And so I was inspired to write the book to invite properly motivated, properly prepared people in to explore this really powerful psycho spiritual, transformative technique, this technology, dare I say, but Tess just as much to keep people out, because this is, this is big medicine. And if it isn't done, if it isn't used as directed, so to speak, it can, it can cause some challenges. So the inspiration in a certain way. It's almost like a command in the dark. You know, the book is actually dedicated to parshana paramita, who, in the Tibetan tradition, is the deity that represents the feminine principle, that represents what's called emptiness, darkness is homologous to emptiness. So that's somewhat appropriate. So she was the holding space for the for the book, and also my retreat. But I also dedicated the book to Hermes Mercurius, which is the Greco Roman rendering of the messenger god Hermes, that which varies messages from mortals to the gods, and so you really did feel like Hermes Mercurius wrote this book. And I was just like, hey, let's get it out there and see what happens. So thanks for the opportunity to say a little bit about it. I'm quite excited about it because I've never written a book quite this way, and I feel probably more strongly about this one than any previous book that I've written.
Tess Callahan:That's an amazing statement, Andrew, because I've read all of your books, and they're incredibly some of them several times, and they're all just incredibly helpful and profound, especially for me with regard to lucid dreaming. So I'm very curious about, as a fellow writer, how this came to you differently and like your sense of urgency about it, and how it actually came to you in the context of the dark retreat, and the word creativity is right there in your title.
Andrew Holecek:Yeah, yeah, this is a good one, yes. So, and this is one of the things I've discovered in doing this pursuit. So many years is I was trained principally within the context of pretty traditional, classical Tibetan Buddhism, because that's where Dark retreat has been in the tradition for at this point, 1000s of years. It's a huge practice, and you'll find it, of course, there's renderings of it in the pre Socratics. You'll find it in ancient Egyptian sleep, Temple rituals, Neoplatonic traditions. So there's a huge lineage in history here. But the reason I mention this is because I've been doing it for so long. There are aspects of it that I have not found in the classic non dual wisdom traditions, the Tibetan rendering of it that I have found through my own personal journey. I'm kind of interjecting more psychological especially depth psychology approaches the work of Carl Jung and the like. And the reason I mentioned this is because the creativity thing, in fact, more and more artists. Elizabeth Gilbert went in and is writing and talking about it, other creative types. And I think when the word gets out, you're gonna have more and more musicians and all kinds of other creative types going into the dark. And I think what's going on here. In fact, I can say this with some reasonable assurance, because of my personal experience and also a relatively extensive exploration of the study of the structures of the conscious and the unconscious mind, is that one of the most spectacular things that happens in the dark is the attenuation, the thinning out, and then eventually the actual erasure, the removal of the boundary between the so called conscious and unconscious mind, and that's where the creativity comes from. And I can say, I can say a little bit more about this, because I do think it's pretty important. This was a massive set of insights for me that resulted in the Florida creative flourishing that came from this book, and it since then, as I continue to go back in, it's where I now go more overtly, more directly, to incubate creativity, to actually troll and farm this dimension of the mind. And this, there's no intimations, there's no references to this at all. In the wisdom traditions that I've come across, they go all the way down, so to speak, to the deepest dimensions of the super unconscious. So to speak clear light mind. So this is this to me, was huge that when I finally saw this boundary thinning, you know, this is why Hermes Mercurius and prajnaparamita all came to pay a visit, right? Because as the mind descends, this is one way to talk about what happens in the dark. There's a wonderful Tibetan term for this that they talk about the word they use the word wrong pop, which literally means self fall. So what I've noticed in decades of doing this practice is the mind opens and relaxes and by the way, I need to interject, on one level, darker tree isn't anything particularly special. It's just very intense, concentrated inner work. I mean, Rudy gobert, the NBA superstar, said, I think, quite appropriately, that Dr tree is meditation times 1000 I think that's pretty spot on. And if you can join that with my favorite definition of meditation, which is habituation to openness, well, what are you doing? You're opening times 1000 in other words, this is a magnificent practice of real expansion and openness. And so as the mind relaxes and opens and then falls into itself, it goes through these kind of sedimentation This is my languaging, this kind of archeology of the conscious and the unconscious mind. You go through these sedimentation levels, the depositional levels of the unconscious mind. And so as you fall through, and I can speak at quite at length about what happens in the journey and why the initial aspects of dark routine can be so difficult and challenging, there's an absolute clear reason why that's the case, why it becomes more interesting, creative as you go down, and why it becomes absolutely ecstatic and otherworldly, non dual blissful when you go all the way down. But I mentioned this because as you work your way down, the boundary between the conscious and the unconscious mind comes apart. And then I'll pause for a second. We come back and even talk about how the unconscious mind is actually a slight misnomer. I think it's a wrong terminology for this dimension of mind. So we can come back to that in a second, because I think creativity would be a wonderful thing to really unpack with you. Is my mind fell through, fell down through all these different levels, as Rumi put it so beautifully, into wider, wider rings of being. I eventually dropped into the to these archetypal dimensions of my mind, where, in Western language, you could say the archetypes arise Jungian depth psychology, and then even deeper, because these are Jungian archetypes, even going all the way down to the Platonic archetypes, to the very infrastructure of space, time, causality, self, itself. You're going that far down. And as you're going down, well, at a certain point, you're going to bump into prajnaparamita, you're going to bump into all the Greek gods. You're going to bump into the Roman gods, because they represent these dimensions of your being. And so along the way, you know, Apollo will come by to say something. All Athena will come by to say something. And so then it's like, you realize, oh my gosh, these, these amazing, creative archetypes. Prince. Bulls, God's deities, they really are the fabric of these dimensions of my own unconscious mind. And the more I understand that, the more I can open myself to that, the more I can be the recipient of these, these treasures that arise from the deepest dimensions of my own being. And so to me like now, when I go in, and I never used to do this. I used to just either, I would either go in with a very targeted tantric kind of Bardo yoga, death prep, motivation, or I would go in, sometimes more recently, with just a very open ended approach. Just, let's just see what happens. I think these are all viable, but now, because of the creativity that's been bursting forth. Now, just like dream incubation, by the way, they're not dissimilar, I'll actually go in, whether it's a day or two in my dark little room at home, whether it's a formal retreat, annual kind of thing, I will go into now actually intentionally incubate and cultivate creativity and insight. So I'll pause there for a second, but I think it might be helpful to talk a little bit more about why the unconscious mind is actually a slight misnomer, and why doctors can reveal, I think the correct nomenclature for what unconscious really is.
Tess Callahan:Yeah, so I'd like to go back to there, and your description of the softening of the boundaries between states of consciousness and going into these archetypal realms. You know, reminds me very much of Carl Jung and his red book and the visions that he experienced and the art that came from that. And one of the most common questions I get about dark retreat, because I did one thanks to your encouragement of your teaching, is that people say, Well, why and why darkness like, why can't I just, you know, meditate, sure, and I don't think Carl, maybe Carl Jung had an eye mask on. I don't know. So can you talk about that like that? Why darkness in particular? Yes, a
Andrew Holecek:number of reasons. Yeah, this is great. So I again, what it does is it provides an incredibly intense metaphysical mirror. So this is one thing that it does, that when you're in in the dark, you have the capacity. There's so many ironies. One. The other thing I'm going to say, well, I guess I could say it now, is that in my languaging, darkness is the color of non duality, and so it's an incredibly beautiful way to drop to these non dual, elemental, primordial dimensions of one's being, and as one goes into the dark, somewhat connected to what I was saying earlier, every dualistic construct is eventually deconstructed. It's like an acid bath for duality. It's a duality Decimator. And one of the things that actually falls apart here that's so beautiful is the boundary, not only between waking and asleep, day and night, inside and outside, self another, but I've discovered as a writer, and this has been such a wonderful surprise for me, it was actually the breakdown between the literal and the metaphorical. When you're writing about this stuff, it's, it's just so rich with Word, play, with irony, with paradox. And I'm actually, when I'm writing this stuff, I'm going, am I talking about something literal here, or am I talking about something metaphorical here? Or does it even matter at these levels? So that, to me, has been really, really interesting. So the dark retreat, okay, so let me go back to the first part. It acts as this magnificent metaphysical mirror that allows you to see in this highly reflective environment, things you've never seen, felt heard before, because you have this literally in your face reflecting mechanism. And I use the principle of Janus in my book, as you know, another Greek God that I met, you know, the two faced, the God that represents beginnings and endings. And so I use the principle of Janus to talk about coming face to face with who you really are when you can no longer run away from who you really are, and that's where the highly reflective capacities take place, when you can no longer distract, literally pull apart. That's what the word means. You're you're almost forced to face these particular dimensions of your being, and that can be profoundly revelatory and liberating. But in terms of the duality, decimation part is one drops down into these dimensions. Is darkness starts to erode all these levels of deception. This is a highly embodied practice. It's a highly feminine practice. Deception cannot follow you into your body. Deception cannot really follow you into the dark, or if it does, the weight of that deception will be loaded onto the dark, and you will feel it as the pressures that seem to come from the dark. They're not. They're just being loaded onto it. And so this is the great gift of understanding what's actually happening when you're feeling the seemingly oppressive forces of the darkness that's. Self. But when one hangs in there long enough, and one falls through all these levels of dismemberment, distraction, fracturing, that basically, I argue in the book, constitute what we know is the meta crisis today, this poly crisis, this meta crisis, is just one distraction, one fracturing, one dismemberment upon the next. Plato was on to this when he talked about the journey of psycho spiritual awakening as anamnesis the process of recollection or remembering. And so when you go into the dark, you're almost forced to remember, because you can no longer dismember. This is the genius of the practice. It doesn't really add anything. It's an addition of a tool designed for subtraction. And so when you go into the dark, mixing metaphors, it's the ultimate erasure. It just pulls away, erases all deception, all fake news, to basically return you to Real News. And so reasons for doing it are, there's so many. Creativity is just one, finding meaning and purpose in life. Is another, finding peace, tranquility, insight, finding healing, psychological healing, physical healing. And so it's, it's absolutely ridiculous, or is my Gen Z people? I'm learning new Gen Z vocabulary these days. My Gen Z or say, it's just ridiculous, the level of the level of benefit that take place, that takes place in the dark, is ridic. And so this is, in fact, what I'm studying with so many neuroscientists these days, and this is precisely why they are so interested in studying it. Because the ROI, the return on investment, is just insane. You go in for a couple of days, it can change your life forever. And so we're trying to understand, unpack the processes, the phenomenology, like, why is this taking place? What's actually happening? So there's so much to say here, but I think you know just to get an initial sense, if you really want to learn about yourself in the shortest possible time and the most concentrated possible environment, this is one way to do that, because you can no longer distract run high from these dimensions of your own being, and it's profoundly revelatory and prescriptive and curative, actually, in this regard. So something like that.
Tess Callahan:Does that make sense? Yes, that's brilliant. And did you say what you wanted to say earlier about the unconscious?
Andrew Holecek:And no, so let me get back to that, because I think this was a colossal insight for me. Well, we could, I sometimes do this little thought experiment. We could, we could do this together. So we're all, let's say your listeners are listening to this during the day. Let's, let's all take a five minute break, and let's say we listen to listening to it during the day. We step outside and we look up, and if you're like, where I am in Colorado, there's a beautiful blue sky, and it's just radiant blue, wonderful open space. What we don't see when we look up during the day are the 10s of 1000s, actually the millions of stars that are up there. They're there. They represent the unconscious mind. Why do we not see them? Because they're obscured. I love the term obfuscated. They're obfuscated by what light. This wake centric. This the sun in this Rei represents consciousness, the conscious mind. And so this is really, really beautiful. It's another one of these fantastic ironies that takes place. This is another kind of duality, decimation. Thing is that at these deepest levels, the dark retreat takes one to light, doesn't reveal light, conceals light, obfuscates. I would argue that this is, this is the really, the deep, insidious signature of the dark age that we're in, the Kali Yuga that the Hindus talk about. So ironically, the Dark Age, the Kali Yuga, is brought about by too much light, light pollution at physical and metaphysical levels. I mean, what an amazing irony that is. And so you can go into the dark to restore your sight, to create a sense of balance. So what happens? What I discovered in the dark, and this is why it fits in so beautifully in my schema of the nocturnal meditations you mentioned, some of my work around lucid dreaming and Dream Yoga. Well, when you go into the dark, just like falling asleep, which is the Minister of dark retreat, well, what happens? The sun sets in dark retreat, the conscious mind sets, and as it sets, what happens these 10s of 1000s, these millions of lights that have always been there, that represent the unconscious mind now they have a chance to shine. And these unconscious lights, by the way, the dark, this is also so compelling, it's so this is where we're going to go a little bit deeper. Light is masculine in many, many world wisdom traditions, darkness is feminine. And so this leads to really interesting ideas about patriarchy and runaway metaphysical light pollution. And so when you go into the dark, which is a highly feminine practice, by the way, you're descending into this deep unconscious dimensions of one's being, because the light of consciousness itself sets. And then, therefore, hence, all these amazing lights of the unconscious mind shine. And I have to. Say, one particular experience where this was made really dramatically apparent to me, in fact, in fact, it was the same retreat that I had. Basically, I hate to use this word, but I guess I can where I channeled this book, right? Sure. The reason I think this book is so good Tess is because I didn't write it, right?
Tess Callahan:It's got a lot of your good wordplay.
Andrew Holecek:However, I guess I've massaged a little bit, but I didn't, but I was, I'll never forget this moment where I was having these sorts of insights. And this is I've had this so many times in my life where, well, I have, I'll have some kind of insight, and I'll either have an incredible set of dreams, either lucid or non lucid, or I'll have some amazing synchronicity, or I'll have something happen in my life or in my dreams, that puts, like, a major exclamation point, that is like, like a yes, that's, that's it. And so I had this set of insights in the dark, and I'm not kidding, lying on the ground. Most of the time when I'm in the dark, I'm in shavasana corpse pose. You basically for me. You know you're going in there to die, right, to let go, to open, open. And I'm lying on the ground in Shavasana. And I think, you know, people need to understand, and you can say more about this from your own experience. I mean, it is dark in there, right? I mean, it is so dark your hands in front of your face, you can't see it. Your eyes are open and closed. It makes no difference. It is the darkest dark you will ever experience. And so I'm sitting there, hanging out. My eyes are open. I'm looking into this pitch black beyond black space. And it was as if, and I'm not exaggerating, it was as if, somehow the curtains just parted, and in front of me was revealed the entire Milky Way galaxy. I'm not exaggerating, it's pitch black, and I'm looking at an open space where there are these 10s of 1000s of dazzling, brilliant lights. And so, I mean, I literally just burst out laughing and crying in the dark because it was like, okay, okay, how much more like, obvious and clear can this be, right? So I just had this insight, and then all of a sudden, boom, you know, the whole universe, just the galaxy, just appears radiant, full of lights. And so for me, this is a really wonderful thing, because as neuroscience many, many scientists, say that at most, what we know in our so called conscious life is only 5% of the structure of our mind, 95% minimum, minimum, 95% of what we do is dictated by the massive forces of the unconscious mind. I mean, just think about that. Right? You think you're living a conscious life hardly. Now this gives meaning to Christ, alleged statement, right? Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do. We live our lives just buffeted around by the forces of the unconscious mind. And so, like I mentioned earlier, when you go into the dark and you open up, coming back to that metaphor. Well, these lights come up. Well, they don't come up. They've always been there. You're dilating the aperture of your awareness, your consciousness. So another image I use here that I think is also compelling along these lines is that, you know, another thought exercise we could do is we're listening in this room. Let's flood this room with as much light as we possibly can. And then all of a sudden, the power goes out with just total pitch black, right? And at first, you can't see a thing. I mean, it's just like dark is all get out. Well, we know what happens. If you just you're just patient, what happens? Your pupils dilate, everything relaxes, everything opens, and you start to see things that have been there but were basically obfuscated by the contraction of in this case, your pupils in your eyes. And so the longer you stay in the dark, the more you dilate. It's not just your eyes that dilate in the dark. It's not just your mind that opens and dilates. Your Body dilates every dimension of your being in the dark, open, softens, relax and dilates. I have no doubt I wouldn't do this. In fact, I think it would be cruel, but I have no doubt if I'm in there for like, I don't know, let's say, a week, 10 days, and somehow the walls blew off and the in the roof was blown off in the middle of the day. I have no doubt I would go into shock, because I would just be so overwhelmed by the impact of sensory especially the sun, that my body would violently contract, not merely in self defense, but in self generation. And so I say this because this is another monumental gift of the darkness. As you open, again, mixing my metaphors, it's not, you know, as you open, open, open, all your calluses are removed, all these contractions are taken away, all these defensive structures are taken away, and you become more sensitive, more sensitized, more open, more receptive. And I noticed this really in particular, and I'd be curious to see if this resonates with your own experience coming out. Tess that coming out to me is one of the most interesting experiences, because I always have to drip it, especially the longer I'm in, you know, takes me sometimes days to come out, because I have to open and drip a little bit of light. I feel my whole body contract. I feel the calluses come back on. And to me, this is profoundly revelatory of how. Else I generally lead my life, how contracted I generally am. So I'm mixing all kinds of metaphors and images here, but I think maybe you're getting the basic idea that everything dilates, opens, relaxes, softens, softens, expands. The conscious mind melts into the unconscious mind. The unconscious mind becomes more and more available and aware to you, and this is really the seed of tremendous psycho spiritual, healing, restoration and fundamentally, liberation altogether. So I know I throw a ton of noodles against the wall.
Tess Callahan:I have so many questions I could ask.
Andrew Holecek:This is somewhat indicative of what actually happens to me in the dark. It's just like, you know, I have to go in with a voice recorder at this point, because there's so many things that come out, it's just marvelous kind of Yeah, effulgence or display. So I'll pause for a second, yeah.
Tess Callahan:So with regard to the voice recorder, when I did ask a few listeners who knew this interview was coming up, you know, what their questions might be, and one of them was, you know, do you take notes? Do you have a voice recorder? And this speaks to what you were just saying about if you're in there and the walls blow off, you know how that would throw you into shock, and the importance of, well, in your book, you describe the preparation, the descent and then integration, and the importance of that moment when You're leaving, especially if there's a lot has happened with, you know, ego disruption or ego pause, or the question that the listener had was, can you trust the insights to integrate into your life on their own, or do you need to really go back to those recordings and Those notes, and if something as big has been disrupted that needed, the callouses came off, right? Yeah, and now, but you need to enter back into your you know, you go to your job, and you need to, you know, your kids and your life, so how to let the ego reassemble in an authentic way that's functions in service of you, and it's not leading you around by the noses.
Andrew Holecek:This is such a great question, and it's so important. Thank you. Whoever asked this. Thank you for sharing it. And I'm hearing more and more from people who are coming out that one of the biggest challenges is, in fact, integration. And so this is spot on that, that, yes, as the egoic structure fundamentally dissolves, disintegrates, because ego who you think you are is just as a writer. This may be interesting, you know this it's just a storyline. Who you think you are is just a narrative, I playfully say. And this is just me, it's not you, because you're a great writer and you're like mine's different. You know, a story crafted by a really crappy writer with a really shitty ending, it's called death, right? So I have to say that, because you can rewrite a new story. But so yes, egoic structure comes undone. You have these sometimes remarkable insights, and then how do they integrate? Well, my experience, based on the query from your listener, is they don't necessarily integrate. Sometimes they will. But we're finding a lot of people actually wrestling, struggling with the integration aspect of it, because sometimes, just like with a very powerful psychedelic experience. By the way, the larities Here are a bit uncanny. I definitely relate to extended dark retreat as a site a sober psychedelic for sure, just like with really powerful opening experiences of any sort, whether it's deep meditation in a normal retreat, whether it's a psychedelic experience, whether it's dark retreat, whether we open, open, open to such an extent, it's pretty unlikely that you're going to be able to stay that open, to stay that vulnerable, to stay that that receptive. We're going to through the power of habituation, habit slash karma. We're going to contract to greater or lesser degrees, depending on our particular kind of developmental schema. And so the integration thing is absolutely critical. And so taking a voice recorder in for sure, before I started bringing in my voice recorders, I would come in with with notepads, which became somewhat hysterical, because especially if I wouldn't flip the page right, like two, two sets of notes on top of each other, and I felt like it was reading Egyptian hieroglyphics. Now I can win. I have sticky notes in addition to two voice recorders. And absolutely positively, I'm generally not much of a diary journaling kind of guy, but in the dark, because sometimes things come so fast, so furious you open, this stuff is going to come up. I mean, another interjection from one of my favorite teachers that ties in here, Trungpa Rinpoche, right, famously said this ties into both the meditation times doctor treat, meditation times 1000 Trungpa Chase said meditation isn't a sedative, it's a laxative, and that's. Really quite beautiful in a strange goth way, right? It's beautiful in the sense that just like with the psychedelic you're going to purge, this stuff is going to come up. It has to. It has to. That's the basis of psycho spiritual healing and transformation. You have to bring these unconscious processes into the light of consciousness. And so as you open and all that stuff comes up, sometimes you know, the good, the bad, the ugly. It's all going to come up depending on on where you are in your spiritual journey. But it comes up because it's such a concentrated environment that facilitates so much opening. It comes up sometimes quite quickly. I'm not sure if this was your experience, and I can't keep track of it. If I don't record it, if I don't write it down, I'm not I'm not going to remember it. And so absolutely positively. I record it when I come out, I transcribe it. Ai goes to work at it. I put in a journal. I go back, just like with my dream journals, I'll reinstate that space. Oh yeah, that's what that was about. And then also when I come out. And again, there's so much to say here. I make a very, very deep, concerted effort when I come out of retreat. And this, by the way, parenthetically, is one of the things we're going to be studying with our neuroscientists. You know, there's no doubt whatsoever that when you come out of dark retreat, just like with psychedelics, you're in a highly neuro plastic space, even meta plastic you're because you become so open, plasticized in a certain way, in the best sense of that term. This is what's referred to as the opening of critical learning periods. Metaplasticity and neuroplasticity are magnificent opportunities to reconstruct and re and to learn and like, how do you want to shape your life? Like you said, How do I want to shape my life when I come out of retreat? How am I going to direct my insights when I come out of retreat? And so there's a whole set of guidelines that I write about in the book, about creating certain patterns of disciplines, certain tips and tricks for integrating, digesting, metabolizing the experiences and then maintaining a home practice. I mean, have you had any one experience? Unless you've had, like, a massive near death experience that's going to change your life forever, maybe, but usually we have to rinse and repeat. Usually we have to go back and dip again and dip again. And this is why I keep going. Why do I keep doing this after 29 years? Well, because the unconscious mind, the mind, is enormously vast. It's enormously profound. It's enormously deep. And every time I go in there, just like in my ever expanding lucid dreaming, Dream Yoga World, it's like, Oh, I've learned everything about the dream world, like not even close. So there's so much to continue to explore. So coming back in, wearing a mask at home, dipping in that helps with integration. And then if you're having more, and we're seeing more and more of this, and I'll pause sometimes the stuff that comes up is psychologically really challenging, like traumas can even be healed. Here I now look at trauma as chronic contraction. And when all the contractions open, when you soften and open in the dark, these contractions loosen. This is the psycho lytic aspect of it, the softening, you could say the stool softening, right? That's the lytic part. That crap is going to come up is that comes up sometimes psychological support after the fact is really important. So I'm actually in active conversation with a number of psychologists to work with an integration platform, not only for dark retreat, but specifically for dark retreat, for people that are coming out, because I know all my wonderful brothers and sisters who run these retreat centers. I'm not criticizing them at all. They're wonderful human beings, but they don't, you know, they may not have the bandwidth to have all these aspects of the necessary, in my estimation, the necessary support for psycho spiritual integration. You have a great experience. Well, then what do you do with it? How do you integrate it? So the psychological aspect of this, to me, is super important. The somatic aspect, the embodied aspect of it, is really important. So just like with so many aspects of this, there's a ton to say, but maybe enough on that for now, unless you want to go further with it. But this is a really important topic is it's not just a one hit wonder when you're in there, preparation is key. Experience, obviously, in the journey itself is key. And then integration, boy, it's a big deal.
Tess Callahan:Yeah. And that also speaks to the importance of set and setting and having an experienced guide. And I'll give a plug to keen being at dark reach dark havens, who facilitated my retreat so that was, you know, to be held during that time with your whatever, once a day or twice a day, little conversations through the door. Is very important. And then also, absolutely the follow up. I mean, I'm very, very grateful that I have.
Andrew Holecek:Let me ask you, we haven't talked too much about this. How has your integration been for you, and are you feeling, I mean, how to say integrated, so to speak, yeah.
Tess Callahan:Well, in preparation for this interview, I went back and reread my notes and some of my dreams from from the. Retreat. And I think what I have a lot of benefits I feel from the retreat. Actually, one of the simplest ones is my relationship to sleep. And I have to say, I went in well, you know, I was encouraged by your teachings. I signed up. I felt like pretty good about it till the day. For some reason, the day before, I got totally stressed out, and I was sure I had made a mistake, and there was so much going on in my life, I was worried about this person is going to need me, whatever. And then I thought, well, you know, on my deathbed, it's probably going to be exactly the same. I will think, no, it's not the time yet. So and So needs me, and I haven't finished doing xy, so that's exactly why I should do it now. So the most stressful time for me was actually the drive there. And then once I got there, it was actually a very I was kind of prepared for, like, Oh my God. I don't know what this is going to be. This is, and I didn't have any strong intention. I just thought, whatever needs to happen, let that happen. And it turned out I had so you know, some startling, helpful initial experiences. But as a whole, it was a very, very subtle, very gentle experience. And I slept a lot. I had four or five very vivid dream, some lucid dreams. My first dream was I had a lucid dream, and I said to everyone else in the dreamscape, hey, we're dreaming. Let's have a party. And so we put up a tent, we danced, we sang. So it was like a great the dark retreat invited me in in this beautiful way. And then, then, of course, allowed me to open, as you say, open and relax. I felt more open, more relaxed. I was not stressed. And then things came up gently, very gently. Things came up like wounds, you know. So it was very incredibly helpful for me. And gentle, very gentle. I'm so glad
Andrew Holecek:to hear that. Thank you for sharing it. It's really beautiful. And for me as well, the the extraordinary restorative capacities of having so much time to sleep, there's something quite luxurious, you know, it's like, it's not like you got to jump up and do something, right? And first of all, you know, after a couple of days, you have no idea what time it is, you have no idea if it's there at night outside, everything gets kind of turned inside out and upside down, which can be a little disorienting, but also quite delightful in a certain way. And so I often, for the first couple of days, I'm curious. It sounds a little bit maybe like you, you know, I'm sleeping a lot. I don't realize, whoa, I'm more sleep deprived than I thought. And the other thing that's so beautiful in terms of the sleep aspect itself, this is just one dimension, right? Not only is it magnificently restorative, because you're spending so much time in the dream space and the deep, dreamless space, the non REM deep restorative space where human growth hormone is released, all these amazing things take place. So the natural restorative processes take place there, but on another deeper level, and this is another aspect of how many things can be happening simultaneously. What I discovered with with spending so much time in the dream and sleep space and like, in a certain sense, pulling all my pulling my portfolio, pulling my accounts out from waking consciousness and redistributing those perceptual accounts into the sleep and dream Arena in the most beautiful way. It sort of balanced the books a little bit. Because what I was saying earlier, I realized, oh my gosh, I put way too much investment in the wake centric, site centric, light centric to me, all in the service of egocentricity. And by the way, what are these? These are all centricities. They're all contractions. I put way too much investment into this portfolio. And so when you're in the dark, I can reallocate my resources. I can reinvest into the dreaming and the sleep space. And so what does that mean? Just like you said, my dreams go off the charts. I mean, I'm dreaming like never before. I'm having more lucid dreams than I can imagine. I have experiences where I literally can't tell if I'm dreaming or I'm awake. That can be a little bit freaky at first, but now I find it really incredibly interesting. And then with enough familiarity, then that's lucid dreaming, of course, liminal dreaming. Then eventually that can even invest further into this, into the deep sleep space, where you can experience yoga nidra, like high level yoga nidra, what's called luminosity, or sleep yoga, where now you're actually lucid, awake in the deep renal space. So now you're going, not familiarly, just very beautiful, healthy, biological restorative processes in the sleeping space now, now you're restoring, I mean, the geek speak, you're now restoring your ontological, your metaphysical books, because now you're reallocating and redistributing your perceptual capabilities along these other two states of your experience. And so in another way, you're almost going from a one dimensional view, which is pure. Wake centric saying, the world has what's called monophasic wake centric space in the dark. And the nocturnal meditations do this in general, the dark retreat does it on steroids, because it extends the night like literally, you're going from from a one dimensional wake centric view to a three dimensional view, where you have the capacity to maintain awareness, perception, cognition, through all these states. And then this, by the way, this is what really changed me when I came out, because then, as I kind of divested my portfolio from the wake, the waking state, which is, by the way, where ego is only fully online and operational, then I was able to soften, see even that and that relationship to my world. So that's just, I'm glad you mentioned that, because it's a wonderful benefit. People go in there they go, Oh, I'm just wasting my time, and I'm sleeping all the time. I mean, I know people. I mean, they spend 16 hours a day in bed when they're in the dark. They may not be sleeping for 16 hours, but they're spending a ton of time in the dark. Is it a waste of time, maybe, but maybe not. You know, maybe you're really working at all these really fine levels. And so to me, this is another traditional manuals didn't talk about this at all. So I would say, honestly, as much allegiance as I bring to the great wisdom traditions that I've studied pretty extensively. And I would say more than 50% of my insights have come from these more serendipitous just general, what's going to happen if I do this approach and just endless, open ended curiosity and wonder before I go into every retreat now I literally, I stopped at the door. I do a couple prostrations, I make a little bow, and I say, what are you going to teach me this time? Right? And then I just go in, it's like, okay, begin.
Tess Callahan:Fine. So that's a great way to approach every day.
Andrew Holecek:So I'm curious how, what is the so called residue effect? I mean, how is your dark retreat influenced you even to this point? Because it's been a couple of months now, right?
Tess Callahan:Yes, I think what my fear was, actually, I thought on the surface level, my fear one of the my for some reason, I felt I was afraid that I would not know if it was day or night. I wanted to know out there, is it day or night? But I think beneath that, really, the fear was I won't know what state of consciousness I'm in. I won't know if I'm awake or asleep or somewhere and and which is a funny fear, because do we ever know how I'm sleeping? I'm dreaming. I think that I'm conscious. And right? So it was kind of a ridiculous fear, but I'd say, since then, and this is a great benefit, as a writer, I already felt like I was very interested and uncomfortable in with the kind of soft boundaries between states of consciousness, right? But now they're just even more delicious to me, the liminal states and the you know, the waking dreams and the lucid like all of it speaks to each other up and down more fluidly. Yeah, it's less like a light switch or my perceived idea that each one had a little compartment, you know. So that's very freeing.
Andrew Holecek:That's so well said. I couldn't agree more with you. You know, in fact, your image is one that I use. You know, the the nocturnal practices, generally in Dr jait, specifically, they replace this kind of Western binary light switch model. You know, yes, no awake, alive. I mean awake, asleep, down, alive with an Eastern dimmer. So just going from from Ghost to subtle to super subtle, and so along the way, mixing metaphors yet again, you know, you're literally opening up kind of interstate commerce, interstate traffic, between previously disparate states of consciousness. So what you're sharing is exactly my experience. That is I again. Consequence of opening is I soften, release, the boundaries opened. Then all these, these insights, traffic back and forth between all these states that previously were were contracted in, in disparate and separated. And so for me, just like you were saying that kind of interstate trafficking, that cross pollination, whatever metaphor you want to use, continues. And then for me, every night, when I go to sleep like I mentioned a bit ago, it is like a miniature dark retreat. I relate to it as such, like, what is, what are my dreams going to show me tonight? What's going to happen in my deep dreams a dreamless space tonight? And can I, in fact, nurture and cultivate some of these same experiences in this miniature dark retreat that takes place every single night? And so this is another way that also helps me with integration and then further preparation when I go back in again, so that that it becomes less and less dramatic. You know, at first it was so dramatic, you know, I live my whole life in this wake, waking space, and my whole normal thing, and then I go into the dark, you know, everything is put on hold, and it's just. Huge shock, right? It's like a it's like a cold plunge, right? It really can be quite shocking to the system, because I've done it for so long, it's no longer a shock. I warmed up a water, so to speak. And me, this has been maybe some metric of maturation and fruition with my journey that the everything becomes more Yeah, more workable, more open, more playful, more more just delightful, because of what yeah showed me, yeah. So would you go back in? Would you do it again?
Tess Callahan:Yes, I definitely would. Yeah, yeah. And in that spirit of openness and softening of boundaries. Would you like to say anything about encountering non human intelligences you're talking to your book about delightful terms like unemployed angels and and also the inner guru. So is there anything around all that that you would Yeah,
Andrew Holecek:so sweet, yeah. So that line comes, comes from my friend David, from all who some listeners may know. I was talking to her a little bit about, she's really big into death and dying, which is so great. And we were talking about this sort of stuff, and she shared something along the lines when we were talking about non human intelligences about, and I love this. You know that there's all these unemployed angels hanging around, which I just love. And so why not take them off the unemployment list, right? Bring them into your life? And so for sure, this is what for some people, a deeper dive, but not for others. Some people have these experiences more readily. But one of the other things that happens for sure, along this journey is one opens and dissolves. You're no longer limited to this space time locus of identity that we append the label Tess or Andrew onto, we become more porous. We start to open. Well, now you're mentioning the domain of the mystic, the psychic, the shaman, where because you're more open and porous, you make yourself more available to these non human intelligences that are just as real or unreal as we are. And so this, again, is a marvelous consequence of this degree of opening. And so to me and you intimated this, but this is also worth talking about. Are these exogenous or endogenous? Are they external, or are they internal? Or are they both? Of course, I'm going they're both. And so I'll be in there again. The whole notion of i becomes questionable. I will be experiencing a particular presence. And sometimes these are cultivated. So some of these I actually nurture. There are certain liturgies and certain things I do to actually cultivate a relationship with these non human intelligences. I invite them into my space. And so I would often feel these so called exogenous, let's say the deities. Okay. I feel their presence arrive. I notice them. I'm inviting them into my space. Wonderful. Those are always just a magnificent delight that I've nurtured in my daily practice, that there really comes to light in the dark. Is another wonderful juxtaposition of languaging. But to me, honestly, Tess, one of the most interesting parts have been the the non invited. But I didn't say unwelcomed, the non invited guests. I didn't expect to meet Hermes and mercury, yes, in there, I didn't expect to meet all these Greek and Roman gods in there. I didn't. And to me, it was like, Oh my God, these are all cross dressers. It's just amazing. And I came out, and it was like, I want to learn about the Greek gods. And so I have, I dove into the whole Greco Roman mythological god thing. And it was like, Oh, my God, they're saying the same thing. And being a Westerner, kind of you know, ensconced in the Greek intellectual mythological tradition, oh man, these these great these Greek gods, they resonate with me as much, if not more so, than the Tibetan deities and Hindu deities. And so for me, that was such a delight. I didn't expect that. Oh, my God, Hermes. And so by studying the like, Okay, what does Hermes represent, right? What does Apollo represent? What does Athena represent? What is hygiene? You know? What do these gods represent? Or, if you don't like that, archetypes, pretty much the same thing. Well, then I realized, oh my gosh, these forces are being played out in my life all the time. I mean, my entire life is a readout of these archetypal, mythological principles. And so by understanding that, I realize which God or deity or archetype is actually playing out in my life right now and then, I can align myself, you know, with that particular display. So the exogenous aspect of it is, it was just magnificent. But well, what a surprise when boundaries break down. Then, okay, where are these coming from? Right? Are they coming from outside, or are they coming from inside? Both, right? And so what I found myself, it's so hard to put some of the stuff into words, but when I finally understood, because you can think of this, this practice, classically, Tess retreat, is sometimes referred to as a practice of emergence. I think you could just equally use the term submergence. That's the language I mentioned earlier, about the mind falling into itself. It doesn't really matter whether it's emerging or whether you're submerging, you're going to go down or things are going to come up. It doesn't matter whichever directional metaphor works for you. But But eventually, what I discovered, it was just such a delight, was I would find I would feel myself. Yes, I'd feel these seemingly exogenous forces descending into my space. They seem to be external. But again, you're in there long enough, you know, the memory in between inside and outside starts to break down, right? And that can either freak you out, or it can be like, Whoa. This is really bloody cool. So I'm in there, and then there's a sense of like, okay, well, these deities are coming up within me, the Buddha within, you know, the guru within. And and so when I find myself, it's so hard to put this in the words, but I would find myself like I'm just in this amazing cosmic sandwich. I'm in this amazing deity God sandwich, these and deities and non human intelligences coming in from the outside. I've got these archetypes coming up from the inside, and somehow I'm sandwiched between these divine forces. And I have to say, this has been hugely, hugely transformative for me, because it's helped me answer just one of so many questions. But here's just one really big one, really big one for me, it's helped me answer, you know, the perennial question. You know, I go into the dark as many people do years and years ago. What should I do with my life? Like, how many times do people after this question? A lot of people go into the dark very authentically. Like, what should I do with my life? Well, I realized when I was in the dark that I was asking the wrong question. You know, the right question is, what does life want to do with me? What does life want to do through me? O M G, even though there was 1o, m g, this was a total game changer. Instead of like, oh my god, I got to get my life together. Oh my god, I got to do this. I got to do that. No, what I now got to do is nothing. In other words, I got to get out of the way and let life Live me, let life work through me, let the gods and deities, you know. See, this is cool. So I'm not now employing the angels. The angels are now employing me. See, this is huge. This is really big, because I finally realize, I mean, I'm pretty thick. It's taken me decades to figure this out, this life is not about me. It's never been about me. And it took me going into the acid bath of darkness to dissolve this silly sense of me, to realize that my delight, my joy. And this is why it just doesn't matter what happens anymore. I mean, I feel so free. I become I guess I could get a little like dramatic and Christian here. You know, I become like a slave to the present moment, right? I'm now in the service of reality. And that's like all that in itself, is like self, some major self aggrandizing statement, not at all. I mean, I've never been happier since doing these amazing, dark retreats where I finally just completely open and surrender and I let these agencies, I let these forces, I mean, talk to any writer. Look at the extraordinary. Look at Stravinsky, look at Mozart, look at beta, look at any creative, anybody before they come out and look back and contract and appropriate and sign their books. And I have to say, I still do that or sign their art before they do that. You know this the best art, the best music, the best best poetry, comes when you get the f out of the way, and then whatever it is, someone go, Kaya, whatever term you want to use for this energetic the deities. Doesn't matter the angels, they just channel through you. And again, that that became particularly impactful, somewhat dramatic, when I guess there was enough trust that, you know, this, these books came, started pouring through me. And right now it's like, it's just the most delightful thing I have to come down here. And I was, I'm no longer writing these books. I'm no longer doing any of this stuff. You know, I finally, after all these decades, I'm kind of figuring it out. Get out of the way. What does life want to do with me? What does life want to do through me? And then the whole thing just becomes this amazing, open, delightful dance. This has been big for me so and I have to, I have to thank the doctor. This for sure.
Tess Callahan:You know, it's so helpful to hear you talk about this, Andrew, and I know, I don't want to keep you telling you, know, you got to go. But, you know, I think of, I know your life is like, I mean, just reading your bio, you're you have so many things going and, you know, you're teaching online and in person, you're writing books you're on, you know. And so if you think of us as living on the horizon, you know, an axis of the horizontal plane. And the vertical plane, right? Your horizontal plane is really full. And I can feel from you how there's, like, a tremendous sense of urgency about a lot of this, and you're also managing this time that doesn't exist, right, like you're managing it. And so hearing you talk this way, I can begin to sense, like, how the vertical connection is what allows that, is that so,
Andrew Holecek:what a what a wonderful way to look at it. Yeah, exactly. And so it. You know, there's so many when people will see the cover of my book. When I first saw this cover, there was just it wasn't sent in by my official publisher design. It came in somewhat serendipitously through another medium. When I saw this cover, even though the cover that was proposed was like, literally about to go to press, I said, Hold the presses, right? We have to use this cover. And so if you attach the cover, you know, the jpeg to this program you'll see. And again, this is there's so many things in this cover. They just blew me away. I didn't design this thing. It just appeared in my life. And I said, This is it. And you'll notice at the top
Tess Callahan:that little zip of light. I did notice
Andrew Holecek:that little comment, whatever you want to call it, everything that's captured in this cover, the feminine aspect, the eclipsing aspect, this little zip of light coming in. That's what you're talking about, that little zip of light coming down, and then, then just expressing and shining through. And so, yeah, you know, then you know exactly what you said. Tess, you go in there, you go into the dark to light up. And you light up by no longer obfuscating, no longer resisting, no longer fighting the forces. And so I cannot overstate the impact and the level of freedom. My dear friend, Bernardo kassop writes about this so beautifully. You know, he has this wonderful image about the neurotic Apple Blossom. You know, imagine a beautiful appleblock Like here now in Colorado. It's just beautiful springtime and all, everything's flowering, right? And your apple blossoms and all kinds of things, and and Bernardo talks about, Well, imagine this one neurotic Apple Blossom saying, you know, this whole tree is about me, right? Well, no, it's not about you, because, you know, well, this is the other thing. This is actually really great. It's not about you, but it can't happen without you. It's not about you, but it can't happen without you. And somewhere in there is the truth, right? It's not about you because there isn't one, right? That's the thing you find out in the dark. But it can't happen without you, and it can be both. And so to me, it's I cannot. I cannot overstate the joy, the sense of relief. I would even say this is a major enlightening experience of the dark, to lighten up, to just get out of the way, and then just come out. And fundamentally, it's all about, I mean, really, it's about just being in service of others. I mean, if there's a purpose in this life, to me, as far as I can figure it out, it's just learning how to love and be in service. And to me, this is absolutely positively my inner work through all my other retreats that I've done for so many decades, absolutely positively have been central to this. But the darkness just has a catalyst. It's accelerator. The most amazing accelerator, right? Everything is accelerated by coming to a screeching halt. Another beautiful paradox in Arnie. If it's not paradoxical, that's not true. I love it. It's great. So you go. I had to share this dream. So this is cool. So this happened in the dark. I cannot tell you how many dreams, right? It's just like we dick so in the dark, I'll never forget it. So I'm lucid in this dream. So it's so cool. So, so there's this dream, and there's this, like, this is like supercharged hyper. It's like a combination of a white Ferrari and a white Corvette. I mean, just like the fastest, baddest ass machine you can imagine. And so I'm lucid in this dream, and I'm going, Whoa, this is cool, you know. Let's see what this baby can do, right? So, so I jump in the Corvette, I'm fully lucid, and I'm in there, and I strap my seat belt on. And just like, you know, in those Star Wars movies, you know when they go into hyper warp and they have all this light coming at you and stuff. I'm sitting there like, okay, let's, let's, oh man, let's see what those mobile can do. And I I hear the gas, and instead of blasting off, the whole thing just comes to a screeching halt. And as he came to a screeching halt, Tess, this is no kidding, the white hybrid Ferrari Corvette turned dark. It turned black. It was like, Oh my god. So here I am. I'm gonna go. Do I want the place I want to go the fastest by coming to a complete stop. I mean, like, how beautiful is that? So to me, this is. Yeah, the root you may know this term. I'm sure you do. One of the most central terms in Hinduism and Buddhism is dharma, D, H, A, R, N, A has at least 11 definitions as a multivalent term, but it's super interesting. I'm big into Etymology and word origins. As a writer, I'm sure you are too. The etymology of the word dharma comes from a Sanskrit root DHR, which means to hold. This is brilliant. Hold in two senses. One is in cease, stop. Like, what do you do when you're in the dark? Oh, my God. It's a full hard stop. It's a full cessation. It's a full negation. That's where all the magical properties take place just through the act of cessation, and then hold, as in contain, as in holding environment, as in mandala principle. And so both of these magnificently come into play in the dark, everything is put on hold. You're coming to a grinding halt. That's by the way, is what makes it simultaneously the easiest thing in the world, in the dark, is just do nothing. Well, that's also the hardest thing in the world, because we're not human beings. We're human doings. So you're forced into human being. You can no longer do, you can no longer fracture, you can no longer break, you can no longer dismember. That's the cessation part, and how interesting is this through the act of cessation, negation. This is where, again, like I mentioned 45 minutes ago, this is where all the miracles take place. I mean, look at all the terms for awakening in the wisdom traditions. They're terms of negation, Nirvana, extinction, nirodha, cessation, near vikalpa without thought, nirguna without qualities, non duality. These are all negations. And so the brilliance of this practice, and which is why I think it's so appropriate in this day of an age of hyperactivity and hyper production, you know, the human race to wear right to destruction. Well, I think there's a reason this dark medicine, this dark retreat business, is coming back into the world today as a balancing feminine this is real radical in the best sense, feminism, this is real balancing feminine practice is a way to put everything back on track, to realign, to open and that all takes place through holding cessation, through that you have all the miracles of natural Your body knows what to do, then your mind knows what to do, then your heart knows what to do. Then just like I said earlier, just get out of the way. Stop distracting. Stop breaking away. And this is, by the way, you realize just how addicted we are to distraction, how addicted we are to light. We're all light junkies. You go in there, and all the stuff comes on track just by stopping.
Tess Callahan:Yeah, I can feel in that how this is a practice for our time, doesn't it seem Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andrew Holecek:So I'm curious from your audience, it's so great, because usually when I, when I'm doing podcasts, people haven't done this practice. So this is so cool to talk to you. So what would you say to Tess from, you know, a couple months ago, before you went in, that you could now share with your listeners in terms of, like, you know, maybe ways to think about it, ways to prepare for it, ways to approach it from your own experience.
Tess Callahan:I would say, because I did a lot of I read your book, I listened to a lot of podcasts from people who had, you know, their own experiences. And so I had kind of accumulated a picture in my mind of what it might be like it was, like none of those. So I would say, you know, to to that Tess in the past, or to anyone who's listening, who's thinking about it, just completely set aside all expectations, and it'll be exactly what you need it to be. And there's really nothing to fear because it's only you in there.
Andrew Holecek:Yeah, yes. So spot on. So spot on. Yeah. I mean, Mick Jagger was on to it, right? You may not get what you want, but you're definitely going to get what you need. And this is what I've also discovered, that's such great advice, Tess, is that if you simply open and trust to me, this is, this is key. This is what I'm trying to write about. With support of the scientific community. It doesn't hurt to have it the support of the traditions to have that doesn't hurt to create a holding environment. There's that word again, of trust. Because if you can go into an environment where you know you're basically the invitation of the dark is fundamentally to open, relax in stronger terms, you could say you're going in there to die, to let go. Letting go is just a euphemism for death. You're being you're being invited and eventually forced to let go. But here's the kicker, without a little bit, and this is what I toy with this, because on one level, there's two ways to prepare for the dark. One way is just begin. Is my curiosity. Just don't do anything. Just go in there and see what happens. That is completely viable. I'm not dissing that at all. But the other approach, and obviously I'm subscribing to this because I'm writing and I'm teaching about it, is to create some guidelines, some suggestions, some maps, some metrics for what to expect. Because what we're experiencing with my guides, and we don't have a hard data on this yet, but we're collecting it. And these are people that that are going in voluntarily. I think if you're bringing people in off the street, it would be even higher. About 90% of people that they go into the dark contract into a flight, fight, freeze response, you know, because they see darkness as a threat, the unknown, and they contract, not merely in self defense, but in self generation. That contraction generates the sense of self so what, what I'm trying to do with my talking to you and writing and doing this research is to create the framework where one can learn to open in an environment that otherwise elicits contraction, because it's a little bit like the cold watch thing. You're going to go in there, and it's so cold, it's dead cold that that fight, flight freeze. People contract, not everybody, but a lot of people contract. And so the preparatory thing is, like, whatever you can do that helps you stop doing. This is another great irony. Whatever you can do to stop doing, you know, just slow down and stop and so for me, preparation and integration, because they work bi directionally. It's okay, okay, okay, let me just think about this for a second. Okay, what am I going to be doing in the dark? Nothing? Okay, well, maybe I can prepare by learning how to do nothing. Now, that's one of my favorite definitions of meditation. I used to say when people ask me, what do you guys do with your meditation center? Well, when I got a little snarky, I'd say, Well, we do nothing, but we do it really well. Meditation is the art of doing nothing really well. So maybe, maybe because, in a certain way, you're going to be forced to meditate in the dark. And by this, what I mean you're going to be forced to relate to your mind. That's all meditation is establishing sane, open relationship to the contents of your mind in a very real way. I'm curious if this is relates to you. You're going to be forced to meditate. You're going to be forced to relate to your mind in the dark. Why? Well, because there's nothing else. You can no longer run away. You can no longer distract and so maybe as a preparatory and also integration strategy, okay, maybe I can work to establish a relationship to my mind and heart. Now, maybe I can work, you know, to slow down right, to be more mindful, to be more all the things that the darkness is going to enforce. You know, in the tradition, I think I mentioned this, darkness is considered or forceful or wrathful method of liberation. Just like death is, by the way, it's a raffle method of liberation. Why? Well, because darkness, like death, is uncompromising, non negotiable. You can't really outsmart it. You can't really out contextualize it. You can't even out meditate it. You surrender to it. So in order to surrender, it's like a good psychedelic experience. You mentioned set and setting. You know you want to have a good psychedelic trip. Trust, surrender. Trust surrender. If you really trust where you're going. And this is where understanding your mind, your heart, the dimensions of your mind and heart, maybe this is where you're going to be going, in the dark. Maybe, if you know the dimensions of these heart, your heart and mind are good, just like this. You know, if you understand that, then maybe when you, when you, so to speak, hit the dark, you won't hit it. You'll be able to embrace it. You'll be able to trust it. You'll be able to just say, you know, yeah, open, relax, and then, and then let the darkness show you the way. So I think, for preparatory comments, in terms of entering and also integration, been super helpful. Does that resonate with your
Tess Callahan:own experience as well? Definitely titration, you know, having a practice of just being with yourself beforehand, whether with a mask, or, you know, your meditation practice or not, not that you know that will be replicated in the dark. But you're, you're just getting used to, yeah, just navigating without the usual
Andrew Holecek:compass, right? Your GPS, right? What I write about in my book another one of these wonderful mind apps, right? Is, is hot, and this is one of the challenges in writing the book. Is, how do I orient the reader? How do I orient you in a world we're getting lost, is how you find out what you're looking for. What do you do with that? Right? Well, the minute I put pen to paper, sorry, Hermes Mercuria, I did the best job I could the men, you know, what do they say? What do they say? In Zen, you know, if I speak, I tell a lie. If I remain silent, I'm a coward. Well, I guess I could say I'm a brave liar, because I do the best I can to try to point out things that eventually, just like you said half hour ago, do all the prep ever. Do everything you can. And then when you get to your cabin, let it all go. Release self, liberate even the antidote. Release everything. Just like what death, death. And so if you go in there and you trust, then you can surrender, you can open. That's when the magic happens.
Tess Callahan:Yeah, your book was tremendously helpful, Andrew, I wouldn't have done it if I hadn't read your book. You know, that's Yeah, and that helps me go in with that kind of spirit of trust and surrender.
Andrew Holecek:Oh, that warms my heart. I'm so glad that really means a lot to me. And so can I ask you, if you don't mind, it was back on you. I'll interview you. So how are you working with integration and stabilization? I mean, what are you doing now to to enhance and incorporate what you experienced?
Tess Callahan:Well, I would say that it sort of turbocharged my dreams. I've always been very connected to my dreams and but since then, it has, you know, I've continued to be more connected to my dreams, and that, you know, consciously deciding to be and more just more connected to the nocturnal practices that I was maybe partially invested in before I have a new commitment to them. So and also the things you you write about in your other books, and the Dream Yoga, and, you know, yoga nidra, so that has, you know, integrated into my life. I mean, there are some things that came up I would say that have not fully unpacked for sure, yeah, and that's just, you know, like in any meditation retreat and and my dream, but my dreams, you know, poke at me and say, Hey, remember, yeah, don't forget this.
Andrew Holecek:Yeah, spiritual practices, remember? Well, that's awesome, because I did not mention this, but maybe I can just briefly throw in that in my schema, this practice dark retreat. It's part of the fifth of my five nocturnal meditations, right? So just briefly, there's the liminal, draining thing, that's this pre post plasma dimension of mine. Then there's lucid dreaming that you've talked about. Then there's Dream Yoga. Then there's yoga, Nidra sleep yoga. And then the fifth one, of course, is, is BARDA yoga, slash dark retreat. And so the reason I mentioned that is because it's just like you said, the kind of one kind of structural narrative of these progressions practical practices is transcend but include. And by that, what I mean is is lucid dreaming transcends but includes liminal dreaming. Dream Yoga transcends but includes both. And therefore, guess what? The fifth one, barter yoga, dark retreat transcends. In other words, it goes farther, but includes all the other four. And so therefore, for people who work in the dream world, especially in this capacity, boy, there's no place you can go that will put this into hyperdrive than going into the dark. And what, like I mentioned earlier, extending the night so everything comes to life there. And I do exactly the same, you know, for me, like I mentioned, the nocturnal dimensions really keeps it
Tess Callahan:going, you know. And it's, I wouldn't say it's just, you know, integrated into my nocturnal like it's also in my waking life, you know, greeting things in a more like you teach about illusory form. And you know when things occur in my life, almost treating them as dream symbols, and just relating to waking life as as as I would a dream, and seeing what it's telling me so well,
Andrew Holecek:you know, let me say this. You asked this question about integration. This just this. This just came to my mind. Hermes just popped it into my mind. One of the things that I've started working with that a friend pointed out that was really kind of cool, because I was engaged, I was having a conversation. I'm teaching a little bit on this stuff now. And I kept noticing one of the other leaders. It was really kind of cool. She would she kept taking her mask on and off. You know, is where we were doing this group thing, and she's one of the main teachers, so I was kind of paying attention to her, and it was like, Well, this is kind of interesting. Like, what's that about? And then what she said was really quite beautiful. She said, Well, I'm doing this because, again, she didn't, I didn't tell her to do this. She goes. I'm noticing that when I put my mask on or, you know, you can just close your eyes, this is the other thing about micro dosing, right? If it's, if it's a sober psychedelic, you can micro dose in the blink of an eye. I really love what she said, which is the following, she said, I noticed that when I put my mask on and I speak from that space. I'm speaking with more depth, with more authenticity, with more connection to my interiority. And I just said, high five, how beautiful is that? And so now when I do my programs, because I was inspired by what you shared with me, I invite people before they open their mouth, either with a mask or. They don't have it. Just close your eyes we do right now. Reconnect, does it, in fact, bring about a sense, a sense of center, sense of greater depth, authenticity and interiority? For me, no doubt. So this is one way I work with integration. You know, close my eyes. You know, not escapist at all, hardly. It's like, okay, what's going on in the depths? What does darkness represent? This is one of the things that represents, for me, depth, authenticity, profundity, interiority. I can remember, remind re body in the blink of an eye. So this is another way to incorporate,
Tess Callahan:you know, one of the the most profound things I've gotten from doing. I've done several in person retreats with you. And so the teachings themselves are, you know, profound and beautiful, but there's a little something that you do periodically when you're teaching, particularly, sometimes it's when, like, there's maybe a question about the world, and you know, it's like, what's happening in the world, and and you know, you'll respond, and then, you know, with your passion and concern, and then you'll say, oh, getting speedy, yeah. And you'll stop, and you'll close your eyes and you'll say, just give me a minute, and then you come back and continue with the teaching. That little gesture has stuck with me as much as anything you've actually taught, because it's like a teaching and I can feel it in myself. You know, energetically The news comes on or whatever, in a conversation, I can feel, whoa, getting speedy, and I do that now. So thank you.
Andrew Holecek:Oh, you're so welcome. See, you never know. I mean, it's like I do a Tess. Because what you know, again, this is the this The other thing you asked it, you know, an hour ago, like, why go into the dark? Well, this is another reason to do that, because what darkness does in the most magnificent way, this is my languaging, but it's really helped me with this practice and others, is it creates a canvas. It creates a new contrast medium that allows me to see, feel, perceive things I've never seen felt perceived before. And by this, what I mean is when I'm going into the dark and into an environment that invites and almost demands such openness, it increases this interoceptive quality that I alluded to earlier, this exquisite sensibility, I think, sensitivity. Because I'm being invited to open, open, open, I can better see how much I contract, contract, contract, and what is done it's been both diagnostic and prescriptive and also, like a good diagnosis, sometimes painful, like I have no I had no idea what a contracted mofo I really am, environment that allowed me to see and feel this. And so I do this even now, right? I get so excited because I have, you know, it's like I've been sitting on this stuff for 29 years. Actually, I started writing two years ago. So 27 years, I've been sitting on all these treasure of insight. And right now I'm so excited. I want to get on my soapbox. And then my big mission these days is I want, you know, I want to bring some darkness into the world is light shit, right? Let's bring some darkness into the world. And so I get so excited. I have to, have to take a little sip of space. I have to slow down. Because what I do, I feel myself like, Oh, I'm contracting. I'm getting so speedy because I'm just so excited, and I find myself getting contracted. And so because, again, I've had this wonderful opportunity to have this openness, I feel it. Now I feel it. I'm in conversation. I'm about using the nocturnal languaging. I'm about to go non lucid. I'm about to lose it. Why? Because I'm contracting. I'm about to give birth to samsara. And so I feel that now I feel the speed I go. Wait a second. I'm just really there's not good. So I pause, take a little sip of space, one breath meditation sometimes close my eyes. Doesn't take long, doesn't take long to reconnect. And this, again, is how you titrate. This is how you drip, drip. This is how he makes meditation with post meditation, because again, our dark retreat isn't the point. The nocturnal meditations, they're not the point. Meditation isn't the point life is the point. Life is the point living a life with authenticity and love and kindness and compassion and service, that's the point. Because otherwise, yeah, I mean especially this practice right now. I mean, one year, enemy of it, and this is one reason I am coming out a little bit. It's so it's like the new flavor of the month, right? It's so kind of sexy in a certain way. It's goth, right? And goth is kind of cool. And I'm not saying that can't be. Use to invite people in, but if we're not careful, you know, returning to what I said an hour ago, the shadow sides of dark retreat, there's an oxymoron. They can become somewhat problematic. You know, with my scientists, not just me and people like you and others, yeah, we're trying to just bring a little clarity into this, yeah, but thank you for sharing that. I didn't realize that that's very sweet to share.
Tess Callahan:I appreciate it. Yeah, it is like a little mini dark retreat when you close
Andrew Holecek:your eyes, literally, I like the notion, you know, you just micro dose in the blink of an eye, right? Just there it is. It's never really went anywhere again. I'm the one that leaves the dark. This is so cool, right? You can make light, you can't make darkness. You cannot make you can't fabricate darkness. Darkness represents the primordial. You can make light, you can't make the dark. It's elemental. And so when you return, I mean, what happens at the end of the day? You know, I did this in my TED talk, right? We use expressions like, when we're talking about something that's really important. We use expressions like, well at the end of the day to me like, this is what really counts. This is what really matters. This is the bottom line. Well, again, metaphor, little, little what happens at the end of the day. It gets dark. It gets dark. So why not connect to that, to that bottom line, to that what really matters. You know at the end of your life, you mentioned at the end of your life what really matters. Bring that into your life. Now live from that space. Now changes everything cool.
Tess Callahan:Well, I think if listeners are after listening to this conversation, unsure if dark retreat is for them or not, the book will really help you discern that. And there, you know, it's not again. It's not a light switch, like there are other interim steps towards dark retreat that are talked about in the book. And also for you know, people who are perhaps not inclined to dark retreat. I just want to also recommend your other books on meditation. Reverse meditations is really powerful. Meditation in the generation, in the eye generation and and also the books on the nocturnal practices really all very powerful. And this book definitely for anyone who's interested in in dark retreat. So Andrew, is there anything else you'd like to share about your offerings in terms of, you know, your teachings, your online or in person retreats, or anything else you'd like people to
Andrew Holecek:know about You're so sweet. Yeah. I mean, all my my Kool aids and my propagandas on my website, but I, you know, I am trimming back. I'm cutting back most of my teaching gigs. I'm concentrating on a few places that I really love to go. Because honestly, I guess I'm living out my aspirations as a cognitive neuroscientist. These days. I'm engaged in five different studies I am presenting all over the place. It's such a delight. I'm finally being myself, this uber geek. So I'm to do these studies. It takes a lot of time, and to write takes a lot of time, which I really enjoy. So the few things I am doing, and I'm focusing because of the book is coming out, I am focusing a little bit on getting some material out into the world on this so people have a deeper sense of, you know how to do it safely. And then, just very briefly, what's coming up in I've kind of intimated this, but the languaging probably my neck, not probably quite certain. My next book is going to be on what we're calling gray retreat, which is a little bit kind of what it sounds like. It's just a more titrated, graduated way, because this is big medicine, it's intense. Even going in for 123, days can be pretty intense for a lot of people. And for a lot of people, it's like, there's just no effing way, right? I'm just not doing it. But what we're working with, and I've guided some scientists through this, we're going to be doing a little bit more of this. I'm going to be writing more about this, this dripping approach, you know, going in for a few minutes, going in for a few hours, weeding in and out, incorporating with community, we space. And so we're quite excited about this, because for one thing, that it's new, there's nothing in the tradition that speaks about this. But I think for the Western world, just so to speak, bring this to scale home. Practice is going to be key. There's so few formal retreat centers, and there's only so many places you can go. Some of them have waiting lists for years. So guiding people in home practice with their masks. They're super inexpensive face eye masks, where you keep your eyes open under the mask, practicing in your closet, you now become a true closet meditator. These are the sorts of things that are coming up down the road, which which I'm quite excited about, because for me, it's been, you know, I've mentioned this at the outset of my book. I've been so blessed to do so many practices for so many years, and this practice remains, hands down, without a question, the most transformative, impactful practice I've ever done. And so I'm just thrilled over the. New one that I can finally talk a little bit about it, share a little bit about it, and just, yeah, yeah, like I mentioned earlier, bring some darkness into the world, right? Because this runaway light pollution thing, it's not so great anymore. Run away, patriarchy. It's not so good anymore. So the physical, metaphysical light pollution thing, this is the essence of the meta crisis. And I think what darkness represents is this. This balancing principle, taking getting it back, back into harmony, back into alignment, represents this because it's fun. I think this is why people are simultaneously challenged, afraid of it, and also ineffably magnetized to it. There's something here. People may not be able to articulate it, but they resonate with the performance, the elemental aspect of it. And if we can bring that a little bit to more awareness, maybe it can help. So so the opportunity to share this with you someone who's done it is so cool. It's the first podcast I've done with someone who's actually done it.