150 - Jamie Clark Pt 2: The Diverse Universe that is Nursing

Continue with nurse, farmer, and Yakima, Washington native Honored Guest Jamie Clark as she chats about the importance of grit and character in nursing, using tact and kindness while rocking the boat, moral injury/secondary trauma in healthcare, being in the trenches vs. the “20,000 foot view,” practical pointers for respectful confrontation, the importance of talking with the person you trust most in life, her passion for professional development, and more!

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Transcript

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Welcome to the Side B experience of Jamie Clark's episodes of The Feeding Our Young®Podcast. Thanks for having fun with me, Jamie, on that intro as we like to do here. I said, to be fair, said, Jamie, why don't you just sing a quick little rendition of Young® Miss Jamie had a farm? And she's like, I am not singing. I was like, all right, fine, I'll put myself out there then. Sounds good. heard Allie break in the song on her episode and I was like, that is brave. There's no way I would do that. No, I can't like, karaoke's not my thing. No thank you. You want people to stay in the restaurant or the bar. I'm not the one to take the mic, so. All right, well let's just get right back into you and your life here, but before we dive into the rest of your careers, I have tantalizingly promoted at the end of the first episode. First of all, again, if you guys haven't listened to our first episode, go back, listen to that. It provides a great foundation here for episode two. But if let's get to know you a little bit more by asking the question that I loved your prompt, the answer that you gave to this prompt, which is who is your hero? Yeah, so I thought about that a lot and I don't think I've ever really had, you know, like a hero in life. So I think that there's a lot of people that have like idolized certain people. um I definitely felt like my sister was like somebody that I really admired. She's 11 years older than me. So she's kind of like, she's a little bit like half mom, um half sister to me because she's, you know, we have that good age gap. Um, and she's also a nurse. And so I've always, I, she just is like very strong person that I've always admired. But honestly, I kind of have always had an idea in my head about like who I wanted to be or who I thought, like what a strong person looked like or what a strong woman looked like. And so I think I've always kind of had this like archetype built up in my head of being like somebody who is like. willing to speak up and speak out, who has a strong sense of honesty and respect and compassion for other people. And I think that all kind of centers around hard work in life. em And so those are the things that I've always kind of had in the back of my head as like a foundation of who I wanted to be. And I think... I think having grit in life can't be underrated. like you have to overcome challenges and struggles and you cannot hide from those things in life. Like you just have to kind of power through and muscle down and get through things. And I think that was definitely reinforced in nursing school where you're just like, well, I can't, I mean, the only way out is through. like, here we go, you know? So that was definitely something. You learn a lot about yourself in nursing school because there's a lot of challenges. uh But I think in nursing as well, that you run into these morally challenging or ethically challenging positions. And if you don't know who you are, it's very hard to handle those in an appropriate way if you're lacking a stone of character. So I think that that's something that I've always tried to like. fall back on when I run into hard situations where I'm like, gosh, this isn't right, or I'm super upset about this, like, what should I do? I kind of reflect on like, who I am and what I want to do for this patient in order to represent them properly or speak out about safety concerns or whatever. And so that's sort of, when I think about like being a hero or... not being a hero, but like what a hero looks like or somebody who inspires me. Those are things that I think are foundational for hero types in life. Yeah, very much so. And I very well said, I, you know, for what it's worth from the outside looking in, like when I think of Jamie Clark, when I see Jamie Clark, and I know I speak on behalf of many of my peers, like that's who we see. We see that perfect blend of like strength and willing to speak up and willing to speak out while balancing that out with compassion and care. And there are some nurses that maybe don't start out losing one of those along the way, but you along the way. You either, you know what mean, just put the head down, get the work done, and you care for your patients, or the flip side of that is you become this like strong, outspoken nurse who then loses a bit of that compassion. m very kind of you. But I feel like the longer I'm a nurse, the more sensitized I've become to injustices in healthcare. There's lots of people that I feel like get jaded by it, that they're like, oh, that's just the way it is. And I think I was more willing to accept what the status quo was when I was a new nurse, because you're just kind of underwater and you're... trying to keep your head above and you're trying to figure it all out and you've got like, you're trying to just function and care of that, take care of the patient. And then at some point you're able to like get fully above water and see like, see land ahead of you and see the big, what the big operation looks like and what everything is going on. And it just, yeah, it's like been very eyeopening. I think especially over the last probably like five to seven years. I feel like I have very little tolerance for people to being unkind to patients, for not listening to patients, um for being too busy to handle something with a patient who is just downright concerned or anxious or whatever. um And so that is something I think I'm almost worse at dealing with internally. like, can't keep it in. I have to say something. um Which is a whole nother set of issues, because you tend to rock the boat more, right? right, my husband's all about like not rocking the boat and I am, I'm a boat rocker. Like I rock it all. I'm, I'm going to say something. And I think that the key is like to be tactful and to be kind and to approach it like with some tact and gentleness because nobody wants to feel like they're attacked. But boy, I've had, yeah, just some like recent experiences where I'm like, this is like. so morally distressing to me that I have to say something. can't, I can't not. Well, it is that respectful confrontation. That is what that is. It's respectful confrontation. And so much in society these days, we are emphasizing that second word and usually completely at the neglect of the first. You know what mean? Like, well, this is how it's supposed to be and I'm gonna, you know what I mean? And that's what drives ad dollars and this, that, and the other. And it just kills me on the inside. So I'm gonna touch on, again, three, four thoughts coming into the brain at the same time, trying to work their way out of the pie hole. at the same time and it's not working. But um with that, just a background where I met Jamie was as a nurse educator at our hospital, on our unit. so we're doubling back to her career here and she'll tell more about that. But I I wanna say at this juncture, I've never forgotten Jamie, like we have what's called TIPS classes, right? So classes, you're getting into a specialty. It's a specialty you've never done before. So whether you're a new grad or in my case, a 13 year tenured nurse at the time I made this transfer, there's so many things you don't know about the new specialty you're in. And so fortunately our organization provides these tip classes and there are multiple classes where you just, you're just immersed in all of these things and the key concepts and the things that are gonna drive your practice moving forward, the things you're missing. ah in that and I loved it. But I'll never forget it was one of your first classes and you talked about that subject of moral injury. And so if you want to, if you don't mind, expound on that for a little bit. What is this moral injury you're talking about? Give examples and how did you even then and or now deal with that? No, yeah, I actually think I think that nursing is full of secondary trauma and I don't I don't actually remember giving this exact talk but I do talk to do nurses about this like if I'm if I'm training them because I feel like there was a lot of that like moral trauma early in my career where I didn't feel like I could speak up because I had all of these like very tenured nurses working around me and they didn't speak up. Like sometimes they would just be like, this is, they were very accepting of like the power structure in the hospital and, um, and like the hierarchy of power that the physician possessed and anesthesia possessed. And so that I feel like I kind of followed suit for a while and was like, well, I just have to keep my head down and I have to walk on eggshells around these certain providers. or I'm gonna get my head bitten off, or there's gonna be some sort of abuse or vertical abuse going on within the hospital, constantly. And so um that was really challenging, and I think I came to Spokane with a lot of that, in the back of my head, knowing I'm gonna have to mentally work through some of these things that have happened to patients that I've witnessed. things that I felt like I was complicit in, which sounds like, that sounds terrible, but like sometimes you're not the decision maker in the care that's being provided, but you have to, you're providing the care, right? Like you're not the decision maker, but you're providing the care. And so I felt there were some cases where I just was like, I absolutely feel complicit. Like I am an accomplice and doing something that I know isn't right. for this patient and I know the reason that the provider is making this choice is because they have conflicting things pulling at them, right? Like they're trying to balance a labor patient and maybe a sick antepartum and maybe a couple labor patients, plus they have clinic, plus they have surgery. And so there's all these different things that are pulling at their ability to make a clarified decision. And sometimes that's really difficult in I see physicians sometimes make decisions where I'm like, you know, if we just considered what the patient needed, this isn't the decision we'd be making, right? Because we're trying to make decisions for multiple patients basically at once, not just the single patient. um So I can give an example of that, I suppose. um There's lots of these. ah Yeah, lots of these, sadly, and a lot of them from like, I can remember one specific provider that like is the most traumatizing for me honestly in my early career. But I mean, I remember. um those that are tenured nurses, you go back and I remember so and so, you know what mean? Yeah. that's terrible. and it was a provider that had been at the hospital forever. And he was very well respected because he was skilled, but he was an a-hole, like a lot of times. And it was really challenging to work with him. And he would target nurses. So like, you didn't want to get on his back because he'd target you. He'd be like on a shit list. But I remember going into a room with him, which I feel like this would never happen now. And definitely like this would never, like I just most recently worked at Deaconess. This would never happen at Deaconess. Like this was so insane, like thinking back that this happened, but I walked into a room with him for a patient that I had been doing an induction, like a prolonged like miso induction, multiple doses of like whatever cervical ripening we were doing. And she was like, She was also Hispanic, which I think there was actually like a race part of this involved also that like um the provider really was a, I mean, it's just discrimination really, but like he was more willing to do uh more aggressive things to patients who were not English speaking. And I remember walking into the room with him and him, the patient starting to ask him, questions in both English and Spanish and I could kind of tell what she was saying to him and he was responding back to her basically like I'm the provider, I make the decisions, you don't get to decide, I get to decide, this is the plan. And I was like, yes, top down 100%. that's how it used to be all the time, way back in the day. Yes, and I remember like in that moment being like, my gosh, like this is so startling, but this is also like not the first incident that I've had with this provider. I mean, I'd had this provider put on forceps on a patient that like wasn't consented for forceps, you know, and I had to like stop him and be like, you have to tell her what you're doing. Stop doing that. Like you have to, you have to tell her. um So there's so many things like that where I'm like, my gosh, this is so abusive. This is like. I can name what this is and this is horrible and you would write them up, nothing would happen. And so it was like, there was a complacency on the organization part as well. ah So there's things like that, that like, that never left me. I mean, I don't know how many years that's been, but over a decade for sure. And I still carry that experience with me thinking like, I should have stood up for that patient and said, you know, like back off, like she does get to ask questions and she does get to decide and it's her body and like. All of the things that I feel like we're very much empowered to say now, but then nursing looked different. We weren't empowered to speak up, I think, in the same way, and especially culturally on that unit. It's like I have such a different perspective now, but that is morally distressing to me, even still. I think about all the things that I witnessed or took part in, and there's things that I'm like, man, I wish I could change that, or I wish I would have done that, played that differently. And you can, you can get lost in the much like, like I use this in the topic of grief, right? You very much woulda, shoulda, coulda, if only, if, you know what I mean? And it's a quagmire. I call it a quagmire. It absolutely is like quicksand. will pull you down quicker than anything else. Yeah. So I, how do you avoid drowning in that? how do you, do you, cause to me, I mean, I guess the simple response is. you just go, okay, I'll be better next time. You know what mean? Or, you know, now X number of years out. You know what I mean? You're like, okay, I've learned enough now. I can definitely do that. I can definitely be bolder. I have less tolerance to be complicit with these things. But I mean, there's a lot of people about to enter the nursing career that are listening to this podcast. What's your advice to them? How do you prevent that from occurring day zero? Yeah, I don't know how to prevent that from day zero because I feel like a day zero, you might not even be aware of some of the things that are happening because you haven't gotten a grip on the whole picture of what nursing is. And it takes a while for you to look at like the 20,000 foot view of things, right? Like you're just in the trenches for a while. But I think the best thing that you can do as a new nurse when you start seeing things like this that are like obvious injustices, em is to start talking with the patient and to start talking with the provider. And it doesn't need to be a blow up in the room, but you can certainly pull that provider to the side and be like, hey, so this interaction that we just had, this is what I saw, this is how it made me feel, and I'm concerned because I think that this is what's going on with the patient. And you can be dead calm in that. You don't have to, you don't have to bring a lot of emotion into it. And I think it's almost better if you just state the facts of like what you're seeing, what's happening and how it's distressing to you. uh It's not always well received, but you'll feel better going home in the end of the day that you spoke up and said something. And I guarantee you that person will reflect on it. Think of every confrontation you've ever been in in your life. You have never been in a confrontation you didn't reflect on. I guarantee it. So that person, just by saying those things to them and calling out the behavior is going to probably tighten it up a little bit around you from there on out because they know that they can't walk all over you. So I would say start small in what you're speaking out against, I guess, and calling out the things that uh are obvious to you that you find distressing and use your resources. Like go to your charge nurse. Go to your seasoned nurses, get another opinion, get a consensus on whether or not something's right. um And I think that that just acting as backup, having your charge nurse help you go to bat for something is invaluable. And on top of that too, I'll use the old analogy, I've used this before, know, ask the questions, right? The advice that we've received from various honored guests, when you're in a classroom, ask the questions of your instructor, because by golly, you know what I mean? Like just be bold, ask the questions. And what I add onto that is always like, of course ask the question, because I promise you, even though you feel like you might be the only one and you're gonna feel stupid if you ask it. you know, I don't want to put myself out there. I'm sure everybody else has it. Guess what? There's at least one other person in your classroom and usually several more who have the same question and who are also not bold enough to ask that question. And so they benefit from it. So then in this scenario, you know, you're talking about if you guarantee, obviously, unless someone's a sociopath in healthcare, and God forbid, I'm sure there's one or two out there, but you know, the sociopaths are out there. But most people, including these providers you're talking about, they'll reflect on what it is that you respectfully confronted them on. And I promise you that maybe you don't, but you're a link in a chain because if all of us respectfully do this when the time is right, that means that provider X is hearing from nurse A and then a few weeks later hears from nurse B respectfully, a little while later nurse C. If it didn't get in the first time, the second time, know, maybe somewhere down the line. They're like, yes, and that is what we need to do. That's part of our job, right? Yeah. I also think when you talk to providers, instead of directly calling them out on the thing, ask them the question. Is this like, does this increase the chance of infection? Is there a consequence to doing this? Is there this? Is there that? And turning it back to them and letting them answer that, because they should know what best practice is, and I guarantee you they can cite it. So if they're like, oh, well, yeah, well, then that gives you the opportunity to instead of having like an abrupt confrontation to direct things in another angle, right? You can kind of steer care a little bit and be like, well, what if we did this? X, Y, and Z. Like, this is, what if this was an option? and see what they respond to that with. Because I think that if you, if they see you also as somebody who has expertise and can see the big picture of what's going on and understands the risks, they're more willing to have like pre-care discussions with you. Like before you even go in the room, they might sit down and talk to you about like, hey, I think we should do this. We're gonna go in here and talk about this. Do you have any thoughts? So I've had that uh a lot more, I feel like in my later nursing career, just because of the way that I've addressed things that are concerning to me. So some providers are really good about coming back and being like, okay, well, she was upset about placing this IUPC super early because of the risk of infection or whatever it was. I'm gonna go and talk to her about it so that we don't have to have this discussion later. They're gonna try to come at you and get your opinion. So I'd say make yourself an expert in whatever field you are and show that you're an expert. be willing to ask the question about what the care is. Yes, yes, and also in so doing, it's not a, doc, hey nurse practitioner, hey midwife, hey whoever, hey provider, you're wrong in front of a patient. It's not that feeling. Instead you're saying, when you ask them the question, then you're kind of empowering them too. Then they feel like, yeah, that's probably right, da da da da, and they get to disseminate knowledge, and it's still kind of giving that power back, keeping that power I don't want to say there's a power imbalance. It is collaborative. Yes. to like change the core, like now that you've brought up this concern, here's the opportunity to change the course without it being weird or confrontational. And you know those providers that, and I've heard it, I remember when I was a baby nurse and my fellow peers were like, when you talk to this provider, it has to be their idea, otherwise it won't happen. If it's yours, it's shot down, end of story. And yeah, and is that horrible? Should it be that way? No, but if it's the reality you're working in, then change the rules. Thank you for, I, This is kind of, we're just kind of dovetailed into this whole moral injury thing, but I feel like it's so important, and especially when you're going into a field where it exists time and time again. Yes, and I think it's super important also to talk to somebody that you trust about the moral injuries that you incur at work because you will inevitably have them in your lifetime. Like there will be things that don't go the way you wanted to that like mistakes are going to be made, things that you wish you would have done differently and you need to debrief those things. I would love it if we had more formal debriefs, but also like just being able to confide in somebody that you trust with the things that are distressing to you is so important. Like unloading that burden. And could be, I mean, it can be a therapist, but like I call my sister with stuff all the time because she, she sees the backend of the babies and I'm doing labor. And so I feel like she can really relate to the job that I'm doing and the outcomes that she sees. And so sometimes I will be like, my gosh, I had this thing and it was so. awful and I just need to tell somebody about it and so I'll tell her. Yeah, and it doesn't have to be someone in healthcare. You your roommate, your best friend, your family member who is an accountant, you know what I mean? Again, the key component there, Jamie, is what you said. It's someone you trust, someone who won't violate that trust, and someone who you know will either give good advice or just be a great listening ear. Yeah, allowing you to offload in that regard. Awesome! Well, I did promise we'd finish the entantalizing career that is Jamie Clark's nursing career thus far. So five years at the bedside. What else have you done, my friend? uh So five years on the bedside, went to day shift. And at that point, I kind of knew, like I had my head above the water at that point where I was like, okay, I've been a charge nurse for like three and a half years, maybe four. Like, I mean, I was charge nurse right away on night shift. I am interested in leadership. I'm interested in policy. I'm interested in a lot of things beyond the bedside care. And there was a position that opened up, um for a Department of Health grant that our hospital held. And it was a perinatal network coordinator. There's four or five of them in the state. They each cover a region. And so ours covered central Washington. And that job entails uh you to reach out to smaller community hospitals to disseminate information about like uh statewide initiatives that are going on uh and help those hospitals keep up to date with those practices because it is really hard if you are a uh birthing hospital that does 500 deliveries a year and you're the nurse manager of three different units and there's like no A to help you. You have no assistant nurse manager to help you disseminate information. It's like all on you. So it's really helpful to have somebody come in and be like, hey, look, this is a policy. This is a protocol. this is the new work that March of Dines is doing. This is what we're talking about at WSHA, Washington State Hospital Association. And so that was what I did. So I went and visited, I think almost all of the hospitals in central Washington, I went and did a site visit and not to do any sort of inspection. It was just really eye-opening to see how maternity care was delivered in different facilities because I'd only ever worked in like a pretty decent sized facility. Like Yakima does like 2800 deliveries a year. So that's a pretty good volume. And so it's a little different when you go into these small hospitals that are just doing, you know, like maybe a couple births a week. So I go there, meet with our nurse manager, give them information, give them my contact, give them resources. I'd put together a newsletter and send it out like a couple times a year. I would go to Wisham meetings. I would go to all these state level meetings. I sat on the March of Dimes grant board. So I did all of these different things. It was like, my gosh, I get how Medicaid's tied into WSHA, how these different initiatives come in, why they're pushing different things through the hospital, why it's important that we have, like why we're doing induction consents, why we're doing this or that, why is this important? ah And so that was really intriguing to me, because I had never really considered like, why are we doing these things? Like, who's pushing this? um Is this just the hospital or is this something bigger? And most of the time it was something bigger and our hospital was just like an early adopter of it. Like they were just involved. We had a physician, a lead physician that was really involved um like statewide with maternity care and was kind of tied into U-Dub's medical school. And um I feel like that influenced our unit a lot. So that was my... job number two, I still was doing floor nursing, but was doing this grant. And about a year and a half into doing that grant, had, you know, I was doing all these different statewide work groups. But I, basically were coming to a point where my young, my oldest was gonna start school. And it was like, okay, we've talked about moving out of Yakima. We've talked about like moving somewhere else. We haven't really defined where we're going. We actually went to Colorado to go look at a couple places to live, which is crazy. Yeah. So we flew to Colorado for like a little vacay and we were like, yeah, two or three plane rides is probably too many to get back home. That might not be a good option for us. So we went up to my brother's place in Chewila. He's a dentist in Chewila. And we went up to his, uh his house for, I think Christmas or something. And we drove through Spokane and I was like, Why have we never talked about moving to Spokane? Like, why was this never, this was never on our radar? Like, why haven't we talked about this? And we just got to talking and I was like, my gosh, there are so many hospitals here. There's way more opportunity for my husband who was like an industrial mechanic and a boiler operator. So like there's, there was kind of like one gig in town that he could do to like maximize pay in Yakima. Well, that's not true here. Like there's tons of jobs in Spokane. So we just like, picked up and sold our house like in four months. Like we were like, we were gone. So yeah, we like, I gave notice, we picked up, I left first and took a travel gig at Deke and did a couple of like back to back assignments there. I was really nervous because I loved my unit in Yakima. I was really nervous about committing to another unit. And so I did this travel job and I was like, okay, I do like it, but I... my husband and I were both doing shift work. And so it was kind of this decision about who's going to do the shift work now, because we don't have any family here. And we had already struggled through us both doing nights and all of those challenges, you know? uh And so I decided I would go to the clinic for a while and my husband would take a night shift at a plant. And that's what our plan was. I. left Deak after a couple of travel assignments there. And I took um a job at a clinic in the Valley. And that was really, I mean, it was so interesting because I learned so much about GYN, um GYN care. But I basically almost right away was like, I just like, there's no adrenaline reward in this job. isn't, it's, you give a lot and I don't know if I got a lot back from it. So I kind of was like, I think, I need to do something else. I had already applied for a professional development education job at Sacred Heart. And so the manager of that department had been out with a family medical issue and they finally called me back and I interviewed and they offered me a job. And I was like, yes, this is it. This is what I wanna do. I wanna teach. I can use this background that I have with the state. This is gonna be perfect. Yeah. and so I did that for like three and a half years. And in the middle of that, we opened the farm up. I remember. And that really changed the trajectory of my professional career. Because at that point, was taught, I was going to conferences as a speaker. I was doing these uh residency classes. I was writing kind of opinion pieces about best practice and stuff and putting them out on the unit and doing all this different stuff. I kind of, I told my husband, was like, I think when I am retired. I want to do, I want to be like, Maureen Shogan and I want to like do all of these. I want to stay up to date on best practice and I want to go around and speak as like a clinical expert. And like that was the, that was the trajectory I was on. And then all of a sudden we had this farm that was becoming, that we opened and was becoming successful. And I was like, okay, I have to pull back from something. So, And it also became clear that I could replace Matt's income if I chose a different position. So I was doing education out of the love of doing education, but I was not making a lot of money doing education. I was not even making as much money as like a floor nurse makes. ah Even though I was supposed to be doing it, having like clinical expertise beyond. I was not being reimbursed for that. So that is a very hard compromise to make when you're like, okay, my husband could not work and we could be way less stressed and we could have get all these stuff done or I could find another, you know, like I could stay in this clinical position or I could find another job. And it was like just kind of post pandemic uh where you like things were starting to clear up a little bit. Things felt a little bit better. and I decided to travel nurse, the money was still good at that point. And I did, I replaced Matt's income. And I have ever since been able to replace what Matt was making with my experience. And so I took another couple contracts at Deaconess, because it was like the logical place to go. I'd already been there. I knew their nurse manager, so I just hit up their nurse manager and was like, hey, do you need a travel nurse? And she was like, Are you looking like what's happening? And I was like, yeah. So I got hired on there again. And then I took a position eventually as a system float nurse for OB. When I first got hired in, it was strictly supposed to be labor and delivery. And in the course of three years, that position changed a lot. And eventually it basically, were trying to, I mean, I fully think they were, trying to make the position uncomfortable so that people would take staff positions. They were trying to replace travelers at one point when we had a lot of travelers, like post pandemic, they were trying to do their own internal travel position. And so I took one of those positions, was well compensated for being flexible and working different units and working different hospitals. uh But then it was kind of like, I think they could see the writing on the wall that like they had enough staff. They were going to have to tighten up a little bit. And so they were changing the terms of employment. And it just, at that point, didn't make sense for me to stay. I was offered a leadership position before I left a couple of times, but I feel like, for one, I didn't want to manage my friends. uh You know what I mean? em be so hard. Yes, I think that's really hard. And like you see people who do manage their friends and have been, you know, have grown on a unit and kind of like taken on those leadership positions. And I just didn't want to do that. Like I just loved the people I worked with at Deaconess and I didn't, I just couldn't, I didn't want to do that. I just want to keep those relationships like friendships, you know. So I took a travel position. uh in June, so I'm back traveling. And I actually think I may do this long-term because it makes sense for our farm. Yeah, so I took a contract in em kind of like Central Washington area and I just finished a contract there and I'm gonna re-up and take another contract there in November when the farm is all finished up, because we're mid pumpkin patch right now. Which sounds like really chill. I think that I'm right. Like, oh, you're doing a pumpkin patch. That's cute. And it's like, oh my gosh. It feels a bit like planning a wedding for a whole month. that's what it feels like to me. Like you have to make sure everything is like, there's just so many moving pieces and I'm doing inventory on stuff and I'm doing animal care and we're doing. We're harvesting pumpkins. We planted 10 acres of pumpkins this year. We just got our honey harvested, which is super late because we're so, we're pulled in so many different directions. Um, so yeah, so it sounds cute, but it definitely makes my blood pressure go up in the fall. So that's kind of very math professionally. I have had a lot of jobs, but it's been really good for me. And the second, the second I went back to travel nursing, I was like, this is like really, mentally stimulating to me. Like I have to do so much critical thinking because this isn't my home. Like I don't, this is not my home unit and I'm really having to like think about not how somebody, not how I know how to do things, but like how somebody else does things because it's different. And, and then also having, keeping that moral clarity of like, oh, this is like, doesn't sit right with me. And now I have to speak up as a traveler. And that's a whole nother set of issues. um I wrote my first safety event the first day of my contract this year. As an outsider, quote unquote. Yeah? yep. So yeah, it's been interesting professionally, but I think that all of those things have made me grow so much. em I know that people stay in the same place for like 20, 30 years or their whole career, but I mean, think forcing myself outside of my comfort zone has made me grow a lot. And that's what I love about you sharing your story and that journey, because I mean, listener, you have two sides of the coin right here. I have had two positions in now going on nearly 19 years coming, well, by the time you hear this, it'll be very close to being 19 years as a nurse. I will have held two positions, both inpatient, not much diverse in that regards, but two totally different, you know what mean, areas of nursing. And I'm totally like, I am, obviously I'm content, but obviously not content enough to rest on my laurels quote unquote with that because here I am like, I'm passionate about teaching and helping nursing students. So there's always more to do and more things you wanna do. But then Jamie's side of the coin, you know what I mean? You're talking, so the longest you stayed in a position was that first five years? Question mark? Well, I was in that position for almost eight because I did this. Yeah, but that is the longest. But I did something else in the middle of that. Like it was like, I can't, I got to do something else. I got it. I can't keep doing the same thing. had referred to this career, this career that you and I are both passionate about. You called it the diverse universe that is nursing. That's the first time I've seen it put that way. so funny because I didn't don't have no recollection of writing that, but I do feel that way. Yup. ah anything with this degree. You can do anything. Like you could do sales. You could do travel nursing. You can do floor nursing. You can do admin. You could do leadership. You can do education. You can teach in so many different ways. You can consult. You could work for an insurance company. You could triage people and do phone calls all day. Like there is just so much you can do. And I just challenge people. that if you're in a rut in your career or if you find the career that you initially choose in nursing to be unfulfilling, to take the leap and try something else. Because we don't always make, like, you you don't know until you know in that first position doesn't have to lock you in forever. And I feel like maybe this upcoming generation, there is a lot more career hopping and position changing from these later generations. Yeah. maybe that's part of it is that they feel like, you know, I don't have to commit, I can do different things, but I also encourage you to do that. It does just make you grow. And when you're uncomfortable, you find out so much about yourself and about your skillset when you make yourself uncomfortable. And I'll piggyback on that as, know, again, I was gonna be a night shift peds onc nurse my entire career. And when I recognized, you know what I mean, after over a decade of serving in that populace that my heart couldn't take it anymore, you're terrified to make the jump, I've spoken to that on previous episodes. Would I have, but this is, you're giving me a different perspective, and that is would I have been rewarded, would I have felt still as rewarding to stay in that position 100%. It's one of the most fantastic, you know, patient populations you could ever serve, uh children who are facing these uphill battles, and not just cancer, but there are a lot of things we faced on our unit, would I have felt fulfilled in all the things? 100%. And yet, because I made that change, and because I faced the terrifying prospect of teaching this old dog new tricks, I was exposed to a whole new realm of not only patients, but peers, and I mean so many other, and now I teach OB, I teach OB, Jamie, like I. That's a sentence I always say often, you're gonna say sentences you never thought you'd say. And that is one that definitely never would I have thought would be some sentence that would be true about me and my nursing career. So do that. can I just tell you that like you were such like a ray of sunshine when you came to the unit. Like I remember I remember you dropping off a stuffed uterus to the pre like pre starting the job. And I was like, this guy's going to be fun. I'm into it. He's he's willing. He's willing to like be like, I'm the male nurse. I'm coming to town. get ready, here's a stuffed uterus. I'm real excited about like women's healthcare. And I was like, I like this guy. Like this is gonna be great. So I felt like it was just such a breath of fresh air that that like mom, mom-baby really needed it. And it was so lovely to have you like join the unit. It was so nice. I just felt like it, you know, like sometimes it gets hard to be on a unit and especially during. when times are hard in life and then you get somebody that you have like just such a, you have a positive outlook on life and that's really lovely, especially when you work around some nurses that you're like, gosh, I think that you, this might be your sign to move on, something that you will enjoy because right now it really feels like you don't. Right, right, and regardless of how much you enjoyed said thing in the past, those things change. And so always, that's why, and I preach it to my students, always reflect, you guys, never lose the art of reflection, and Jamie's hit on that here in her two episodes. Always do that evaluation, you know what I mean? Change when you need to change. Don't be afraid, face the fears. Jamie, ah, okay, so unless I'm missing anything. Let's wrap up in our traditional closing manner, and that is you picked three words to describe nursing school. What were those three words and why did you choose them? Consuming was one of them, which is because it really consumes your life when you are in nursing school. It almost becomes like part of your identity. Like truly, think nursing does become part of your identity, like maybe as part of you. Like if you're passionate about nursing, it does consume you. But nursing school, it engulfs your life. Like it swallows you up. And that can be really challenging and also like really amazing. Like what a gift to be able to really dive into something if you're passionate about it. And so I would, I kind of see that as both like a, maybe a negative and a positive thing that like, really does consume your life, but like it consumes you in such a great way where if you want to dedicate yourself to learning something you can. So, and I choose, chose inspiring. And I think that nursing school was one of the very first times where I was like, Oh, this is where I want to be. Like, this is what I want to learn. I, so many times I feel like when you're in college, you are, you're like jumping the hoops, right? Like you're getting your prereqs done. You're checking the box of that prerequisite and you're like not really into it. Like your heart's not into it, but you have to get the grade so that you can get to where you want to be. And it was like, my gosh, I'm there. I'm totally there. I'm like inspired. I love this. em This just fills you up in a way that makes you so passionate. And I challenge that if you don't feel that way about nursing and you're in nursing school, to reflect on that. Because if it doesn't, if you can't find passion in what nursing looks like now, it's going to be very disheartening when you get into nursing and you have hard days. So if you are not passionate, deeply passionate about nursing, I truly feel like you probably, like nursing might not be for you because if you don't have passion now, how are you gonna have passion later on? And then I think my last word was challenging or difficult or something. It's hard. nursing school is totally hard. It was really hard, but I learned so much about myself. I learned how I learned. I think I learned some of that doing my prerequisites, but I really learned that I needed repetition in viewing something to absorb it. And so I would... rewatch my video streams, I would rewrite all of my notes and that wasn't typing them for me, I wrote them because that is how I digested the material. Like I needed to hand write my notes out. I mean, I don't know how, I just looked at my transcript the other day and I was like, God dang it, I got straight A's in nursing school? That's pretty amazing. Like I'm still kind of baffled by, I mean, I got a lot of A minuses, but I got straight A's in nursing school, but I think it was because I, was at the coffee shop every day, like, I mean, I really, I let it consume me. Well, like you said, with your marriage, too, you talked about, you know, putting that head back up and you're like, oh, hi honey, there you are, okay, I can devote myself again here, we're good. that's awesome. So yeah, so those are my words. And I hope that, I just really hope that if you're in nursing school, you find a career path that you're passionate about and that feeds you and that you go home, not every day, but a lot of days feeling like I really gave something to somebody that changed their experience in the hospital because almost every day in the hospital for every single person. is one of the worst days, at least maybe of that year for them. know, like that it could be the worst day they've ever had in their life. It could be the best day, but it's definitely impactful and they're not gonna forget it. So I hope that you leave the hospital feeling or whatever kind of work you're doing, like with some sort of like invigoration because of what you've done that day. And I remember that a lot in education actually, like feeling like, man, I freaking love this job. Like I love this job so much. Um, and my husband would, I would come home and my husband would be like, this is disgusting. Like how much you like your job. Like, like you're, it's supposed to be a whole, know, like something that you go and do. And then you come home and you're like, thank God I'm done with that. And it was never really like that for me. Like I've, I've really, I've really loved education so much. I still love floor nursing, but I loved education. It was a really good job for sure. And that's what I love about you. I loved your passion. And that's why I was so grateful that you're like, yeah, let's do this. Let's do the podcast. Sounds good. So I don't know if that's your last bit of uh advice, but if you had one last piece of advice that only, that's the only thing you want, the one thing you want people to take away when they listen to your episodes, what would that be? I hope that as a nurse you are able to overcome or grow in your profession and I hope that you don't lose sight of who you are and what you stand for and standing up for the things that you believe are just in healthcare. I think that's one of the biggest things. and again covered that in spades. So Jamie, thank you so much for taking time away from the animals to come talk with this animal about this very topic that we are both super passionate about. Yes, thank you, Eric. I would so appreciate you. great connecting. Thanks, Jamie.