157 - Becky Love-Kerley Pt 1: I'm an E.L.F.

Join operating theatre nurse, embedded learning facilitator, and Birmingham and Somerset, United Kingdom native Honoured Guest Becky Love-Kerley as she chats about degrees vs diplomas, how bereavement feels for her, being utterly powerless facing the death of a loved one, the surreal difficulty of being the perceived medical authority for her family, the NHS, toxic heroism, being an embedded learning facilitator (helping integrate international peers into UK nursing), secondments, and more!

Contact us:
thanks@feedingouryoung.org to send a note of appreciation to any of our honored guests - let them know how they touched you - I'll make sure they read your praises!
info@feedingouryoung.org all other inquiries, including having host Eric Miller speak to your nursing students or nurses!
+1 (509) 666-5636 text/voicemail line

Follow us:
@feedingouryoungllc Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube

Many thanks:
Jon Holland (Jomarkho - found on SoundCloud, Spotify, and the like) Music - intro/outro/sting composition
10com Web Development Logo and website design
Jeff Burton (88 Creative) Planting and watering the seeds to start this podcast

Transcript

0:01

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Feeding Our Young® Podcast. So, I'm going to open up straight away with a little caveat. This episode is airing sometime late February, I believe. And as it stands right now, we are in Christmas week, the wonderful Christmas week. And I bring that up for a reason, because today, just like every day that I get to sit down and talk with amazing human beings, I am in studio with just the most amazing, amazing person. I cannot wait for you to hear all the many things that she would like to talk about, the questions that I have to pick her brain. It'll probably just be a five-parter, no big deal. So settle in, relax, and be ready to speak with my friend who is also an elf. Ha ha! Yeah, we'll talk about that later. My elf friend, Becky. Becky, welcome to studio. How are you this fine? Well, let's see, morning and evening. Yeah, we're doing a crazy timey wimey thing here, aren't we? Yes, I'm really well. Thank you very much, Eric. Yes, great to be with you and to meet you finally. I know this is, I'm like, straight away I'm like, hello new friend, let's chat about what we're about to do here. I just love meeting people and I love that we have some mutual, it's just, I don't know, this is the part of the job that amazes me is like how I get to meet people. Like they're in no other way would I run into you or meet you in real life. And uh that's because I feel like you are some distance away from me. So without me flapping my gums anymore, Becky. Go ahead and introduce yourself. Who are you and where is home for you? Hi, so my name is Becky Love-Kerley. I am, I'm sure your listeners can guess, I am based in the UK. So I'm originally from the Midlands, um which is, guess maybe you've heard of Birmingham, but I grew up near Birmingham, a place called Leicester. But now I live in the much sunnier climate of the southwest in Somerset of the UK. which I hope to visit someday, the missus and I have it on our bucket list. would strongly recommend it, definitely. I wouldn't want to move back to the Midlands, it's far more industrial, but the South West is, it does have some industry to it, but it's mostly green trees and fields and things. I love it. Well, with that, I would like to open in our traditional manner, meaning I have some straightforward questions to ask you, the first of which is being, what degrees do you hold? that even a thing in the UK? And where did you obtain them? So I went to the University of Plymouth, is, do you guys call it college? Is that what you call yourself? Yep. The names of, you go to like I teach at Gonzaga University, but for the most part, everybody's like, yes, I'm going to college. They don't say they go to university. Is that? Yeah. yeah, I went to the University of Plymouth, although I never actually went to Plymouth, place, em only on my graduation, bizarrely. So I went to a satellite site in Taunton where I lived at the time. And I don't actually hold a degree, which is a bit of a sad, bit of a tricky situation, really. When I trained in 2006, which is quite a long time ago now, em there was a diploma version, which is you're still on the same nursing register, you're still paid exactly the same, everything is exactly the same. However, if you want to top up to a degree, you now have to jump through a few more hoops. So if I wanted to do a master's level degree or anything higher, there are ways of kind of doing like a two in one jump up, but I wish I'd have done the degree at the end. I should have just did the extra kind of, I think it was maybe two or three modules. It was about six more months and I just thought, no, do you know what, I'm done. I'm done with education right now. Yes, so unfortunately I only have a diploma so I do have a few degree modules of other stuff which I'll bring up later um but yeah I am a diploma level registered nurse in the UK. Wonderful, and I'm going to strike that word only from your vernacular. We have a saying here too as well, because a lot of people say, well, I'm only a nurse's assistant. Or our levels go associate degree, and then bachelor's or baccalaureate, then master's and doctorate if you go on. And so a lot of people are like, I'm only an associate's degree. No, no, you're a nurse. You sit for the same boards, the exams. And we'll talk about what that looks like in your neck of the woods as well. With that, uh what three words, as though the question I love to ask everybody, what three words did you choose to describe nursing school? So my three words are feeling fraudulent, like I didn't belong, uh proud, and collaborative. Hmm, I love those and I love that very first pair of words as the case may be and I have a hunch we're gonna be talking quite a bit about that here in this first episode so buckle in everybody but uh With that there was a question that I didn't see an answer to so I'm curious to see what you're gonna say to this and it's the other thing I ask everybody What are three of your favorite songs in life right now? Well, I like a really wide mix. em So I like Iron Maiden and Pantera, that kind of music. But I also like a lot of world music. So uh Bangra and kind of Bollywood music I really like. Reggae, which is hated by most people in my wider circle. um One song that I always come back to time and time again and it's really old is called uh Sweet Euphoria by Chris Cornell who used to be in... uh my gosh, what was his band called? Oh my God, I can't remember. He sang Black Hole Sun. Yeah, that band. I can't remember what the band was called because I didn't really particularly... Audio Slave? gosh, I'm really dating myself and showing my utter musical... non-knowledge. Yeah, Sweet Euphoria by Chris Cornell. It's just him and his guitar and there's something just so beautiful about it. cannot wait to hear that. And the reason why I ask these questions is because then I like to add those songs or at least, you know, whatever is given to me to this wonderful little playlist that we have. ah And so yeah, it's about 16 hours of music and counting, I think right now, um comprised literally of everybody's favorite songs, because it just I feel like music is a language in and of itself, and it speaks a lot towards who you are as a person. So sure. Okay, so the second one then would be maybe Aerosmith Pink. I just love that track. I bought a harmonica specifically to learn how to play the introduction because I needed that in my life. I should really choose something classical now. ah I learned to play the violin when I was eight. So that was a very big part of my life growing up. um Maybe I should say Spring by Vivaldi because that's got a very special connection with me. My father used to love me playing that piece of music and I played it at his funeral many many many years later. So yeah that's always going to be a special piece of music for me. Well, we're just going to jump right off that sentimental springboard, as it were, and get right into the very ham-handed segue here uh into, you mentioned your father here. So if you'd like to talk about, there's a few questions that I can ask that bring that back. But let's start with that one that if you could have a meal with one person, present, past, or future, who would that be and why? Well, did pick my father who sadly passed away in 2006. And that was the same time as I started my nursing as well, in the very same month. um He was a very typical, midland, working class father, which I appreciate probably doesn't mean much to someone in the US. um not very demonstrative with his feelings, very kind of guarded. em But he was so proud that I'd gotten into university to train as a nurse. Strange thing was I heard about that mostly after he'd already passed away. Everyone was telling me, gosh, was so proud that you got him. So I'd just love to have the opportunity to tell him how it sort of went and yeah, how it's going years later, which is, yeah. That's just so incredible. I, you know, we've kind of touched on it. Sorry to hear of your dad's passing and, you know, it's been a while ago, but that doesn't necessarily take away any of the pain and the grief, right? I think grief is a really interesting uh phenomenon. uh Somebody summed it up to me beautifully by saying, grief is like a balloon in a room. Sometimes it's really small and you can almost ignore it and it's just sitting in the corner of the room doing nothing. You can carry on with your daily life. Sometimes the balloon fills the entire room. You are squashed by it. You are totally taken away by it. for no reason it can suddenly inflate and then again for no reason it can deflate and that is the most perfect analogy that someone told me so I am sharing it with you and maybe it helps maybe it doesn't but that's definitely how bereavement has felt for me. I really appreciate that analogy. It's one I have not heard in my many years of, because I am very passionate about grief and navigating grief as well, given my own past and things of that nature. But wow, just incredible. And while we're on the subject of family and of grief, there was another question you gave a very poignant answer to, and that was, what day in your life would you like to relive? Yeah, so just looking back now, I'd love to relive my wedding day, which was 2017. It uh was one of the happiest, happiest days of my life, like I'm sure most people, I would hope, feel the same. My sister and my mum have both passed away since then, and the photos that we have of all of us together just captures some of my absolute most treasured memories. uh Yeah, we're talking about this. I've had a lot of bereavement in the last few years, but that's just really brought home to me how fortunate I feel I've been. to have had that love and support of my family. Because the older I get, the more I see that this experience isn't shared by everyone. And it's such a formative foundation. But I think it's one of those strange things that you only really realize how much heart and em support you got from it when you realize it isn't there. I remember after my father passed away, he was the kind of person that in my life, if I were stranded in... 200 miles away at two o'clock in the morning, I'd be able to ring home and go, Dad, come and pick me up. And yes, he would moan and whinge and be very grumpy about it. But he would be there because that is the utter sort of unconditional support. And only when I realized that wasn't there, did I realize kind of how much um strength it gives you during the rest of the time. Hmm And some people have never had that and yeah, only by the lack of it do you then realise, gosh, how differently things would be if I hadn't ever experienced that. Yes, oh, I just love that. one of the things that I love to espouse myself is that constant reminder, and even if your years removed from whatever trauma, whatever grief, whatever death of a loved one happened for you, regardless of how much time has passed, you still every once in while need that reminder to not take for granted any single day you have with your loved ones. Absolutely. you get caught up in the day-to-day, you know, the busyness, everything, and it's always good to just pause for a minute. And like right now, I've got four beautiful children. I've got my wife, I have friends, I have family, all these things that we sometimes literally take for granted, even when you're someone who shouldn't take it for granted, you know, having experienced the death of one of my own children, now the death of both of my parents, and you still like... there's still those moments where you're just caught up in the hustle and bustle and you have to take a breather and go, you know what? I miss the ones that are gone and I'm grateful for the ones that are still here. Yeah, I'm really sorry to hear that in your life too. I can't imagine what that must feel like, but it's a real feeling for lots of people and it's just something that everybody in humanity can share, I think. And if you don't understand grief, it's because you've been exceptionally lucky to have not felt it, I think. Yes, I agree. And would you agree also, we're kind of dovetailing on the subject of grief here, but would you also agree that, part of the issue too, I think, is that in our modern society, you know, back in the day, way, way, way back in the day, grief, you know, death was a more common thing, right? Children died more often, know, tuberculosis, things that we now have common, quote unquote, common cures for, you know, family members died, you all the things at very young ages. And now we've kind of prolonged life. And we've also, you we've got all these advances. So death not only becomes the thing that doesn't happen as frequently, but then when it does happen, I feel like we're less prepared. Would you agree for that? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I think that sort of feeling of, no, but this can't be happening. How can all the advances that we have, how can this still be the case? yeah, I definitely felt that um at the passing of my sister. um I work in operating theatres and have done since my entire career. And I just felt so frustrated and cheated that, you know, I help in the hopeful cure of so many patients suffering from cancer, but I was utterly powerless to do anything for her. And that is just really difficult to come to terms with, isn't it? And I think, like you just said, we have lot less, um hopefully, lot less experience of death than now. um So we're just less prepared for it. And maybe faith has something to do with it. I have a good friend who is a nurse who has an incredibly strong faith and she's lost a huge amount of people in her life and her faith sees her through. Now, I don't have a similar faith and I don't believe in a religion in the same way that she does, but seeing the amount of strength that she gets from that, I can't say I feel jealous necessarily, but I think she has this something else that she has to get her kind of to get through things, which perhaps maybe in a more, a less secular society, historically maybe that was Something that people turned to, perhaps. excellent point, excellent point. And as I understand it, you know, I'm not sure if the same can be said of your area, your neck of the woods, but in America, one of the, uh you go far enough back, one of the traditions was you would, the family would gather after church, you everybody was church going, know, most everybody's church going, and then they would... go to the cemetery and they would spend time with their deceased loved ones and it was just a spiritual thing, was a family thing, it was a connected thing and that has long since fallen by the wayside. So I imagine those things as like, what would it be like if that was our modern society? I don't know, like, yeah. it. The only thing I can compare it to, this is this is going to be an awful thing to say, I think perhaps for some people, the the only experience I have with America is Orlando and Disney World. So I've got a very narrow view. She's thinking, where is she going with this? No, not at all. No, absolutely 100 % realistic. And the world pavilions in Epcot, you have the Mexico Pavilion and they have a big sort of day of the dead celebration inside there. So this is turning around, this is how I'm linking it. And perhaps because death was seen as a lot more just a part of life and very much talked about, um we definitely don't have that here. There is still, I feel, a huge taboo. em It wasn't that many years ago that doctors wouldn't say the word cancer. They'd say, the big C, because don't say the word, don't mention death. I think the more you see it in your own life and the more we see it, like I say, fortunately, I work in operating theatres and we don't have that happen too often, fortunately. But the more you see it, the more you realise it is another part of life and there can be such a thing as a, not a good death, but perhaps something that is preferable to something else. Maybe, I don't know. Getting very deep in the whole kind of philosophical stuff now. I'm like, oh dear audience, apparently I wasn't kidding when we said we're gonna be a five-parter. We're 17 minutes in and we're here just deep diving on death, grief, and everything involved. it's cheerful. These guys from the UK, they're so cheerful. I love it. No, it's fantastic. You know what, and this is, we'll just continue with this conversation here because I can see the natural progression of where this is gonna go. You you talk about your sister and how that impacted you. You know, I'm looking at you and you seem fairly young to have a sister die. So what would you like to share about your family and what does that dynamic look like? Well, em I was, as I mentioned before, incredibly lucky to have a wonderful supportive family. I grew up with just myself and my mum and dad at home, but I do have three much older sisters. em The oldest who is 22 years older than me, then the next one being 20, and my youngest sister was 17 years older. So all old enough really to be my parents. And I remember thinking at one point, oh, I want to see my birth certificate. Maybe there's some exciting secret. It's not. My mum was my mum and my sisters. of my sisters. But you know when you hear those stories of people being brought up, like no mine was just legit regular, know, they weren't my sisters. But looking back at that, it feels like I had the best of both worlds really, so I was sort of spoiled as an only child. But having older sisters that could take me out to places and do stuff, which is fantastic. One of my sisters has children, only one of them, so I was still able to play like the family games around Christmas time, that sort of thing. But yeah, my youngest sister passed away in 2017 and she was only 50 due to lung cancer. And like I mentioned before, the biggest thing I remember feeling was just so frustrated that there was nothing that we could do. I remember when they very first told us, when she very first told us that she had lung cancer and I thought, well, that's fine, you just have a surgery and cut out one lobe, sure, fine, no problem. And then we've, yeah, yeah, that's fine. But it was inoperable. which was just the biggest surprise to me, perhaps because being based in theatre the whole time, nothing's inoperable, right? We operate all the time. And yeah, and even though there'd been lots of cancer in my family, that was the first time that something hadn't been, I don't want say treatable, but there was no, there was nothing to be done. She did have some chemo, but It was a really strange time in my life when she was diagnosed because I went from being the youngest sister to the sort of perceived authority on all things medical and I'm sure a lot of your listeners kind of know how that feel, you you get anyone in your family or even strangers who find out you're a nurse and they would start divulging all sorts of things like, look at my weird rash and you're like, whoa no. that down. I'm not a dermatologist, thank you. I know a lot about the surgical removal of cancer tissues and that sort of thing, but absolutely nothing whatsoever about the area of oncology and sort of the disease processes involved in that. And I just felt that I was being looked at as someone who would understand everything about what was going on. And I felt like I knew absolutely nothing. And I felt really selfish, just wanting to be a sister struggling with the dealing with this awful family tragedy, but I had to be, I don't know, the fount of knowledge on what's happening and what's going to happen. And I just knew nothing. And I felt incredibly jealous of my family's ignorance of some of the things, especially when the GP, that's general practitioner, that would be the person that deals with you outside of hospital. They were talking about syringe drivers. Now, I knew, my heart dropped. I knew, this is palliative medicine. There's nothing else going to be happening. But my second thing, second thought I felt so selfish thinking about it was I knew that this meant that my wonderful vibrant chatty sister was soon going to be gone if not actually just you know passed away but that side of her was not going to be there and I felt so selfish and thinking my goodness it I'm gonna have to explain what this means to everybody because they're not gonna know that this this means this is the end but I fortunately we had a fantastic GP who said okay guys I want you to be very make sure that you talk to her about the things you want to talk to her about because there won't be much longer left and I just felt so relieved that he had taken that burden away from me and I think probably as nurses we do we do end up taking on the large emotional burden of that kind of caregiving which which is different when you're being I'd say being paid to do it at work there's a separation isn't there and I think it's probably something very common in our global family of nurses that we do that the extra emotional burden the kind of feeling and you want to nurse your family because that's what you are capable that's what you're good at but sometimes that is not the the right role for you I think it's really difficult Yes, and that's exactly the word I wanted to pull around on that is that, you know, it's okay to say this is not my role at this time. You know, from a shallow standpoint, I would, you whenever we went to a doctor's visit with the kids, I always told my wife ahead of time, I said, do not tell them I'm a nurse. Don't do it. there's an assumption then of your A, knowledge, B, um this is how you should act. And we use different terminology, we use different phrases, we speak to people differently when they're a nurse. And being in hospital with my husband, recently he had a lap coli, he had his gallbladder taken uh out. I sort of wanted everyone to know that was a nurse because I kind of, felt, even though this was not my direct colleagues, but colleagues that I did know vaguely. it was, I felt, I don't know, seeing him with a patient gown on was just so bizarre. That kind of crossing over of work and home. Normally there's a really lovely separation, but there wasn't here and that felt very strange, very strange. Yeah, and it is surreal and that's where you say, okay, you know, going into these appointments, I am being, I'm a father. I'm not, I'm not a nurse. And, and like you said, otherwise, A, there's an assumption and B, sometimes then you have to act as a translator for lack of a better term. You know mean? well, what she means is, know what I mean? Like, well, what does that mean? Well, uh, well, or you'd say, I don't know. This isn't my specialty. I have no idea. But also then there's a kind of the feeling of maybe it's just me, but the feeling of guilt. Well, if something goes wrong or if he has any complications, I feel like I didn't talk him into it. So I was absolutely really being extra cautious not to say what I think, this is a good idea or that's a bad idea. I wanted him to come up with the decision of having surgery because Yeah, that burden of guilt. I would have felt that burden of guilt, which is really silly because he's an incredibly intelligent person who can absolutely make his own choices, but I would have felt responsible. Strangely enough and yet there's people listening to you going. Yep been there felt that 100 % I think it's probably something very common to all of us kind of, all of us that choose caregiving as our job. I think in the UK that is maybe different, slightly different. um I don't really know much about the American em health system. We obviously have our idolised NHS, which is wonderful and I'm exceptionally proud proud to work for the NHS, but with that comes a lot of, I don't know, of almost toxic heroism is a word that I'd like to describe it. You're seen as the kind of little Florence there, very diligently, know, throwing all your life away when you go to work and you look after everyone, which, you know, is sort of kind of true in a way. But I think we forget, the nation almost forgets that this is a degree level job. It is now, you can't do a diploma anymore. That's why I'm super old. I've got the diploma, now it's only degree level. So this is a degree level course. are taught up to a, you you go to a university, are a degree educated person and your role should be, um, remunerated as such. I don't know, like, I'm not sure about the American sort of system. but our nurses, when they qualify, you're kind of capped into a pay grade. So we start at about £31,000, which I think is about $41,000. So um I think over the next two or three years, you then get, each year you get an increment and I think that maxes out at about $50,000. So, comparative to other graduate em sort of degree holders. your ceiling of earnings is very much capped, so it's difficult to break through that and all NHS hospitals are the same. um I think if you live in or around London, there is like a higher cost area supplement. So I don't think it's just about money, but I think there is definitely this feeling in the UK that nurses do it because of the love and because they're just so, oh, look at them there, little Florence Nightingale is off. And yes, I'm sure there is a bit of that. but I think this is a profession and it should be treated as such. And I think we're still quite backwards in that, definitely in the UK. Again, I'm guessing in America that isn't quite the same because the health system doesn't look the same. But I am incredibly proud to work for the NHS and without it, well, I can't imagine what our country would look like without it, but there are some drawbacks, I think, with that. We do have private healthcare, but it's not really Most of us wouldn't know much about it unless we worked for it, I suppose. Yes, that goes to the, you which we're not going to spend our fourth episode of the five episode series here discussing the differences between the two health care systems. But I mean, there is that element of, you know, it's very privatized here. Of course, we have our own issues in regards to that and the rampant costs, you know, that are unchecked and insurance involvement and all of that, which is why some call for government oversight, which if it's our government. God help us all. You know what mean? No offense to my administration and all the things, but whoa. uh seems difficult to navigate it, I think, from my very British view, reading you, or newspapers. read the New York Times. Is it the New York Times? I don't know. Yeah. um And obviously everybody has an agenda, right? Every news outlet, every podcast. Mm-hmm. everybody has an agenda but it looks like it'd be a bit of a crazy whirlwind to navigate your system over there. don't, I don't, um I'm glad I don't have to do that. Yes, but you speak towards that toxic heroism and I think there are still some similarities if you go far enough back in American healthcare and with the whole, as I understand it, many healthcare systems were faith-based, right? I work for a Catholic-based, faith-based health system and of course you go far back enough and it is that thought of servitude and which is, mean, 100%, that's what we nurses are. But however, now in this modern age, we all do need to support our families and things of that nature. Yeah, your mortgage isn't paid with love and diligence, is it? Unfortunately. No. um But, you know, it's funny that you bring that up, though, because as far as that professionalism, and that's the word I'm going to use, because that's kind of the hot button topic as of this moment in our country, because from a federal national standpoint, there's a, you know, there was a big hubble-loo that just happened when um the federal government said, okay, we there's this list of professions that are part of a professional list that can then borrow these higher amounts of money to go to college, which now costs more and all the things. And then the question is, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Is it the, you know, do the universities charge more because students can borrow more or do you have to borrow more because the university, all the things. And I'm sure that there's cases both ways. But the big thing that came out recently was then a lot of professions, there were many professions that with this administration, they decided to take off of that list. You can still borrow money, you just can't borrow the larger amounts, et cetera. And nursing was one of those professions. yeah, and so then even though from a practical standpoint, OK, I see what you're saying. don't necessarily, nursing shouldn't have to borrow, I think it's like $200,000 total is like the cap. Yeah, yeah. You shouldn't have to borrow that much to become a nurse. it was just a giant... Oh my... Wowzers. be fair, depending on where you go, I have not heard, I'm sure there are universities where it would, if you went for a four year, I can think of a few that, I mean, the university I work for, the tuition's pretty high, but it's a private Jesuit university. Public universities, it's still pretty costly to get a four year degree. The cheapest route is a two year uh community college associate's degree, that's typically the cheapest. So, irregardless, 200,000 is a large amount to, I can't even imagine borrowing that to become a nurse. I just don't see that being a thing. with our nursing salary that would take three, six, nine, twelve, that takes six years to pay that off. yes. And so that from a practical standpoint, it makes sense. But, but there was still the public perception that, and a lot of nurses, myself included right out of the shoot, were like, oh, so we're no longer, you know what I mean? One of the professional fields. And so I think there's always kind of that, that give and take, that tug, that uh desire for, you know, acknowledgement, especially in these modern times post COVID, right? Where, you know, healthcare maybe is not as trusted. as before. And science and rational thought. Anyway, I'm not going to go down that road as we go here. The thing you just mentioned there makes me think of so we introduced myself as an elf, which yes is very Christmassy and all very lovely. um But that came about because my role, which elf stands for embedded learning facilitator. I do not have bells on my shoes or pointy ears. Unfortunately, that would be cool. But yeah, my role was originally designed to kind of give clinical guidance to newer theatre practitioners, sort of nurses and And we say ODPs. Now, I don't think you have the qualification ODP, operating department practitioner. So that is a degree course exactly the same as nursing. It's three years, but you are trained in the role of scrub, anaesthetics and recovery. So it's like a theatres, but I guess you might call it theatre nurse, but that's quite offensive to ODPs because they're not nurses, they're ODPs, but yeah, it's a theatre practitioner. um Yeah, we had our response to... So yeah, my role was as a response to that and we had an increased number of internationally educated nurses. So these are very highly qualified nurses, just used to a different theatre environment. A lot of my colleagues come from Nigeria and other African countries. So their theatre work and their set up sort of hierarchy is very, very different. And as the time sort of progressed, it became very clear to me that this staff group were incredibly capable, but just needed more pastoral support and sort of acclimatisation to our ways of working. which is very different. em I think our surgeons are seen as human and can be challenged and as a theatre practitioner, especially when you're working in the role of scrub nurse, it's our responsibility to say, we are a swab short, we are a suture needle short, whatever, you need this. No, you can't cut that swab in half. No, this is how it is. Whereas perhaps in their country of origin, surgeons, whereas it's law, there is no, they will do whatever. Whereas, so that kind of makes somebody less likely to disagree and they perhaps don't feel empowered to challenge. Whereas our surgeons are expecting that challenge. So they might try and push it sometimes, but they know actually the challenge is going to come. And if the challenge doesn't come, that's when you can get yourself into kind of dicey, difficult areas, really. it wasn't really, yes, they need some educational kind of input, but actually it was more. more encouragement to feel empowered to challenge, to know your worth and your role specifically. it's not just you need to tell them you haven't got enough swabs. You have to tell them you haven't. There's no kind of you're protecting their registration rather than they will tell you how to do your job. So that was a really big difference, I think. Interesting and I mean since we're talking about it, let's just dive right into that bit of the pool here, but that embedded learning facilitator that is a relatively. I think if I pick that up correctly and what you sent me, that's a relatively newer role, correct? Yeah, can't possibly say I'm the first one ever. I'm sure there are different types. We basically have practice educators in our environment, em they mostly, the ones in our trust anyway, mostly work em outside of the theatre environment, liaising with nursing and ODP and nursing associate students. So the nursing associate bit sounds a little bit similar to the role that you were mentioning earlier. em So this embedded learning facilitator role. came up as a teaching role. Previously I'd worked, well I've worked my entire career in one hospital, one theatre department, so I'm very aware how blinkered I am, but I also enjoy kind of knowing the department like the back of my hand. So yeah, it's been 16 years since I've been there. So I started as a newly qualified nurse performing the scrub role for about nine years. Then I went back to university part-time whilst working to complete a degree module in anaesthetic care. which meant that I could act as like an anesthetic practitioner. So I think maybe you guys call them anesthesia techs or I don't quite know what they're on. and I'm not honestly, candidly, I don't exactly know that I, cause we have, there's, when it comes to anesthesiology, we have the actual doctors, we have nurse practitioners, ARNPs, and they focus on strictly anesthesiology, strictly, you know, OR, surgical and all of that. And so that's kind of, there's just different. levels of role or levels of education within that role, think would be the best way to summarize that. So going back to university meant that I could work as a nurse, but in the anaesthetic room, basically assisting the, we call them anaesthetists, one less syllable, but I'm sure they're the same, the same as yours. And then, yeah, basically the, kind of secondment, which would you use the word secondment over there? kind of, well, well, what a word. Secondment. I'm sorry, yeah, I should not, I was like, I shouldn't even go there, and then I went there. Secundment? No, I can't. I'm not even going to try. That's ridiculous. So basically it's kind of like a try before you buy sort of thing, which sounds, yeah, it sounds great, doesn't it? Turns out it's not good for me. um I didn't enjoy the not knowing. Anyway, so we're jumping ahead. So a secundment is, oh, we're trying out this new role. It's going to involve this. it could be an old role, whatever. um Do this job for... a year or six months or 18 months or whatever, but you're guaranteed your old job back at the end of it. You might have to have your old job back at the end of it if the role either isn't needed anymore or I don't know, they don't like you or you don't like it or whatever. So secondment, like it, yeah, testing out. And I thought, well, I really love doing anaesthetics. I love anaesthetics. So if I had to go back to that, that's fine. But I've always loved education side of things. I love supporting students and I love passing on my hopefully my passion about the area that I work in to new people. kind of there's nothing better I don't think than seeing someone improve at something or just get the thing, the technical skill, the whatever. And you can just that lovely, it must be like maybe teaching a child to read. I don't have children, so I couldn't say, but that kind of, they've got it. Look, look, they're doing the thing. That is just, I love that feeling. Nothing compares to that for me. So I thought, this role sounds fantastic. And it's a, so in the UK, our nursing stuff is band five, that's band five nurse, kind of newly qualified and regular nurse. And if you want to basically earn any other money or become managerial, that sort of thing, then perhaps you might be paid band six, which is the next kind of pay bracket. So I'd been doing my role for a long time. I knew I didn't want to go into management because it just seems to take you away from the clinical uh stuff, which It was never really something that I don't think that's where my skill set lies and I don't think I'd enjoy it as much either. So doing like a more senior role that wasn't like team leader management was just perfectly suited me. So thought I'm going to give it a go. It's a secondment. That'll be fine. Oh, wow. I am not good with change. am not good with... think change is okay, but not knowing, not being able to say this is what's definitely going to happen in a minute. Now I know that life isn't like that and nursing definitely isn't, but it was about one month four out of my 18 months' accountment and I was at a point where I was thinking, okay, even if the answer's no, I'd rather be told no, you can't have it, then yes, you'll probably get it at the end. And I did the 18 months' accountment. In fact, it was almost 24 months by the time we had a bit of a recruitment freeze at work at the time. So was all difficult. I... it tied me in knots doing a secondment. I will never, ever, ever do another one because I need to know what's happening. yeah, it was a really interesting, I actually went back into counselling, not because of it, but the feelings that that kind of insecurity brought up for me, wow, I will never be done again. Am I any good at this? Is this working? am I fulfilling the goal? my gosh, it was just the worst. would never do it again. But the role is fantastic and I love the role. And we've got a saying in the UK, like don't honk your own horn. So don't sort of, you know, speak well about yourself. But it is a bit honking my own horn. But I think at the end of my secondment, they actually have now expanded the role. So there's now four or five of us elves. So I can't take all the credit for that. But I'd like to think that I at least kind of tried out what could be successful and yeah now the role has been em taken up by lots of the other theatre departments so that's really cool. So I'm not the only elf we have, I don't know what's the collective noun for elf? Jingle? A jingle of elves, a jingle of elves. Yes, yes. I like that. Murder of crows, jingle of elves. That's it. Well, I'm looking at the time here, Becky, and you know, I do joke with you guys about this being a five-part episode, but this very well may end up into a three-part or we'll see what happens. there's, I just, you don't want to miss what's coming up because uh we'll take a step back, Becky, if it's all right with you. We'll jump into episode two, and in episode two, we'll take a step back. We'll talk about what it's like to go to nursing school in Britain, in the UK, and what that looks like. Kind of just the nuts and bolts of it. But then specifically how that was for you. We'll talk a little bit more about your career. And then you guys, whether it's the second episode or third, if there's three, uh one of the big topics that we're gonna hit on is imposter syndrome and various synonyms for that. So do not miss Becky. Are you ready to flip over to part B of the Becky experience? Absolutely. Alright you guys, we'll see you on the flipside!