NZSFC's POD AND REEL Podcast

Episode 7: One Mistake Is All It Takes: Real Stories from NZ's Deadliest Waters

• NZSFC • Season 2 • Episode 3

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The West Coast of New Zealand offers world-class fishing but demands extreme respect, with veterans sharing hard-earned wisdom on staying safe in these challenging waters. Five local legends reveal how they've survived decades fishing this untamed coastline while witnessing the sometimes fatal consequences of poor preparation and decision-making.

• West Coast fishing described as "second to none" but protected by dangerous conditions
• Fishery relatively untapped compared to East Coast due to challenging weather and access
• No islands or sheltered harbours to provide safety when conditions deteriorate 
• Drowning statistics reveal 192 recreational fisher deaths since 1980, with 66% occurring on rocks
• Only 26% of rock fishers wear life jackets, while 36% can't swim more than 50 meters
• Proper safety gear includes fitted life jackets, appropriate footwear (not gumboots), PLBs
• Fishing with mates creates crucial safety network for emergencies
• Local fishing clubs provide vital knowledge, assistance and community safety systems
• Bar crossings require careful planning around tides, swells and wind conditions
• Recovery efforts for drowning victims create lasting trauma for rescuers and families

If you're heading out fishing, check weather forecasts, wear appropriate safety gear, tell someone your plans, and remember - no fish is worth your life.

The NZSFC Pod and Reel podcast is brought to you by the New Zealand Sport Fishing Council with support from Maritime New Zealand and the Safer Boating Forum.

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Speaker 1:

Welcome back to the New Zealand Sport Fishing Council Pod and Reel podcast. I'm Mike Plant from the NZSFC and today we're back out west. In this episode you'll hear again from five legends Craig Ross, duncan Clark, chris O'Neill, dr McKinney and Mark Gill. They've been fishing out west coast for decades. Some of them even grew up there. Some patrol the surf. All of them have one thing in common a deep respect for the ocean and for the brutal lessons it can teach.

Speaker 2:

Growing up, I always fished out west because there'd never been anyone really out there. Obviously, the population's grown and the word's gone out through social media that the west coast is a pretty awesome and special place to fish. The tides are changing, so to speak. There's a lot more individuals out here now and it's putting a lot more pressure on our launching and retrieving facilities, because we don't really have many. Our car parking is pretty limited at most spots and at Little Huia we can only facilitate 60 to 70 trailers most spots and at little huia we can only facilitate 60 to 70 trailers and we're exceeding that on any half decent weekend in the summertime now mark doesn't mince his words, so I ask him why, with all the dangers, the fish are still doing it.

Speaker 1:

What's the fishing really like?

Speaker 2:

which is awesome to see people are enjoying it. That's the reason why I've always fished out west, because there's some awesome trevally out there. Shellfish is pretty good A lot of mussels, kinners, powers if you know where to look and obviously crayfish and the like, the kingfisher there in the summertime and there can be some awesome catches taken off the rocks. There's quite a few club members that have had substantial catches over the years. A second to none is a fisheryy and it's relatively untapped. It's protected by the weather. That's the issue and that's where we lead to these incidents occurring quite regularly. Unfortunately, it's by people pushing the boundaries to get that fish of a lifetime.

Speaker 2:

No fish is worth your life ever and that's why the West Coast fisheries are not established like the East Coast fisheries are, for argument's sake, the Blue Funtuna fishery around Waihau Bay at East Cape. That fishery there's a similar fishery on the West Coast, maybe not as big in biomass, but there's a fishery there. But because of the weather conditions at the time of the year when they come up, we don't have much access at all to find them and if there is anyone out looking for them, it's only one or two boats. We're dealing with an untamed beast out on the West Coast. There's nowhere to hide.

Speaker 2:

To get to Shouts out on the West Coast you have to come through a bar or come onto a big surf beach if the conditions deteriorate. On the East Coast we've got islands to hide behind. We've got harbors with no bars. It's a lot, lot safer on the west coast is nothing. It's you, your boat and the and the waves. That's what's always put people off it. That's the reason why I've always fished out west, because there's no one there and the fishing's 10 times better than the east coast craig ross from murawai tells us how good the fishing is at the end of the spring and the start of summer.

Speaker 3:

Our season starts. We have a pretty busy year. November is when the big snapper is sort of off the coast and that's where our snapper comp the Muralwide snapper comp is based around that. So we've got a month to catch the biggest snapper or the longest snapper, but we don't go out there and, you know, fill a chili bin because, yeah, we'll go out there and catch four or five, but the snapper fishing out there is second to none. Like we don't snapper fish any other time of year because we get spoiled. Then. You know, it's just. You know, literally, if you want to have a beer, you've got to pull your bait out of the water and have a beer. You can't have a beer and enjoy fishing because you're flat out, you know, soon to get a fish on. Yeah, no, it's insane, it's. And yeah, you, I'll take people out and they come out with a two hook ledger rig and I'm like you need to cut those hooks off because you're going to be sick of unhooking fish.

Speaker 4:

You know, just, fish with one hook and um, yeah, it's full ball catching a fish for a feed's one thing, but giving up your life for a feed's another, totally different thing. It's the people you leave behind in these situations. You know your wife, you're going for a fish and you don't come home. It seems a pretty basic thing to do and we're all entitled to do it, but it doesn't mean you have to. I'd taken the boat down the beach before and left home, and I'm literally five minutes from the ramp, got to the beach, stood there and in that half hour everything's changed and we don't bother taking the boat off the trailer. Go home and put everything away and have a beer and talk about it. You know that's the reality of it. You don't have to go.

Speaker 1:

That was Duncan Clark, also from Piha Deep Sea Fishing Club. Both Duncan and Chris O'Neill have been awarded for their efforts in rescues of fishermen over the years, and they've seen the good, the bad and the ugly. And so has our next guest, dr Mick Kearney. Mick is also a surf lifeguard and works for Drowning Prevention Aotearoa. He's had hands-on experience, but also wades waist-deep in the drowning data on the daily.

Speaker 5:

One of the key things is not wearing a life jacket and not being able to swim. I mean, that's just the number one thing, literally not even able to float. You know, if you're going to go fishing off the bricks on the West Coast with a big swill and you don't have a swim or you don't have a life jacket, you're a bloody idiot. There's no ifs or buts about it. I mean, generally, a lot of it is sort of recent immigrants to New Zealand. You know they're coming in and fishing different areas which they may not used to, because the west coast of Auckland, north Island, it's a different ballgame to a lot of places where people have been previously. A lot of it is recent immigrants and it's guys. It's guys getting in trouble. I mean I've got some stats here. And it's guys, it's guys getting into trouble. I mean I've got some stats here.

Speaker 5:

You reckon there's about 210,000 people fish off the bricks. Yeah, 42% fish with mate, so then that's almost 60 don't. So that's not a good thing. Only 26% wear a life jacket, so not another good thing. 36% don't even check the weather, so they don't know what's going on. And I hear this oh yes, sweet, even check the weather, so they don't know what's going on. And um, and I hear this oh, yes, sweet as whatever, but um, over 33 of them are drinking beers there as well, you know. So you're making, um, probably not the best, uh, decisions at times. And um, this is a real interesting stat 36 of the rock fishers can't swim more than 50 meters. Yeah, so that's. It's like, mate, you're putting yourself on a hiding to nothing. And over the years since 1980 to 2023, there's been 192 bodes of recreational fishers die, of which 127, or 66% of those, have occurred while fishing off the bricks.

Speaker 1:

It's pretty humbling hearing those statistics. Mick the Kiwi, she'll be right. Attitude kind of rings true to a lot of things that you just said. I have a few drinks because I'll be right. I won't take a life jacket, she'll be right. I won't tell a friend, she'll be right. Is that the biggest problem here? For us going fishing is maybe just a bit of complacency and thinking, hey, you know, it's all good until it's not all good.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, yeah, and that's right. I'm proud of big generalizations here. But you've got bods who've been fishing off the bricks for years and it could be intergenerational. You know, their granddad's taken them, their dad, their uncles, you know and they're fishing it.

Speaker 5:

Then They've got like so much bloody knowledge passed on like, oh, you only fish this spot, on this swell angle, at this side, and if you fall in, we've got a rope and then you, this is how you get out, that's massive, that's like that mataranga, or knowledge held by those bods that are fishing, like that huge. But then you get someone who rocks up there and this doesn't have that knowledge. Well, they're in a world of trouble. You just got to pray like hell that there's, um, someone like that around to help you if you fall in the drink. It's that that simple. If you're taking a mate fishing and you're organizing, you're bloody responsible mate, like if you're taking someone fishing and they're not good around or in the water, mate, you got to be, you got to have your shit together because you never forgive yourself if you lose a mate. That went just because of you.

Speaker 1:

Chris, Chris O'Neill from Pihar has a warning for rock fishers.

Speaker 6:

That's the other thing we're probably going to see. With them locking up some of the easy spots on the east coast and those reserves, it makes the west coast look way more appealing, you know, particularly for rock fishing. You know it's like Pihar's pretty easy walk to the rocks, you know, and you can catch a feed which is. You know, and you can catch a feed which is. You know it's bloody hard to catch a feed on the East Coast off the rocks now without driving for two or three hours.

Speaker 1:

So that's going to, you know that's going to really push the numbers up, I reckon, and not just the rocks, like also the boats crossing the Manukau Bar. Guys are seeing the marlin, the pelagic fish, the tuna that are being caught out West and thinking, geez, I'll give it a go. But what are they really getting themselves into, you know?

Speaker 4:

And quite often the gear's not maintained. You know, and that's what I touched on earlier, is especially older boats, which you see in the Manukau a lot, that are, you know, underpowered and overstaffed, shall we say. But yeah, these craft that are making it out aren't really seaworthy to be on the Manukau, let alone over the bar and out in the open ocean. So you've really got to pick your battles. You can't go into this stuff with your eyes closed. It doesn't take any prisoners.

Speaker 6:

There's no one else. If you fall off the rocks, that can actually go in the water and get you, Because you know Coast Guard's fine if you're offshore and they can, you know, fish someone out of the drink outside the surf. But rock fishermen fall and they normally find them a meter away from the rocks or clinging onto a rock and coast guard they don't do that.

Speaker 1:

So your only options then are like either a lifeguard or a helicopter you've seen like a lot of guys going out past where you guys are based out to the rocks, solo fishers quite often. What are the most common mistakes you see from guys fishing off the bricks?

Speaker 4:

oh, first of all, no life jacket, and it doesn't have to be a bulky life jacket. It can be one of those inflatable. You know manual inflatable pfds. Classic is gumboots, because you know it's really good for walking over rocks, but they're um, they're good sinkers too, once they're full of water and just fishing on the wrong day.

Speaker 6:

You know like there'll be guys out there today. It's um well, it's actually not too windy, but it's thunderstorms and stuff and the surf's pretty big. But there'll definitely be rock fishermen out there now and it's just. You know it's a waste of time but it's also just so dangerous. You know there's just they go in there. We won't be able to get them today we'll go and have a look.

Speaker 1:

We'll go and have a look, but there's no guarantees we'll get you yeah, like you hear a lot, oh, I'm a good swimmer, I'll be sweet, but can you kind of walk us through? It's hard to swim in gumboots. Yeah, yeah, you know. Or especially if you've knocked your head or broken your ankle or something right?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, exactly yeah. When you're falling off the rocks, it's not generally a swan dive into the drink you're trying not to go in, so they're grabbing hold and, as you say, they're bashing their heads and bashing their bodies and breaking limbs. And quite often the ones we do recover they're quite badly bashed and bruised and rock rash everywhere and, in a lot of instances, only partially clothed as well, if at all, and that can be a half an hour in a surf situation where they're getting tumbled about and all their clothes get stripped off and you're pulling in a nude body. That's unfortunately unrecoverable.

Speaker 1:

So we've talked about gumboots, but what kind of footwear and outfit would you recommend for a guy who's going off the rocks? What would be your? Hey, this is a safe person. If you saw them walking past the club rooms, you'd think, hey, this guy knows what's up.

Speaker 6:

It's the middle of winter, so this time of year I'd be staying in the pub. I'd be in the pub, yeah, probably wearing a wetsuit, to be honest, because you're like I don't know, the water's probably about 15, 16 degrees now, so you're like your useful time, even if you can climb onto a rock and keep your head above water in deep trouble pretty bloody quickly anyway, just because of the temperature. So, yeah, so there's that. There's one is you know that your temperature, your wetsuit gives you a bit of protection from um losing all your skin on the rocks as well, and something like crocs or those um wetsuit booties, something like that or an old pair of running shoes yeah, something's got to be light yeah, kick off if you have to.

Speaker 1:

Um, you know crocs would be my go-to, but they have got holes in them, I suppose yeah, what's the reality like for you guys when something does go wrong, because you guys volunteer at the fishing club as well as at the surf life-saving club at times, some summer paid guards obviously, but you guys have lives to live and you know you. You might be at a kid's birthday party or something like that, and then the bell rings right.

Speaker 4:

Just at the pub even we had some shirts printed about a few years back now and they were bottled to throttle in two minutes and that was frowned upon. But that's the reality of it. We can literally be sitting here and the thing goes off and you put down whatever you're doing and I think the quickest I've ever got there's about three and a half four minutes from home and then get the gear out and get into the water. So it's a solid 10 minutes before you're actually able to do anything.

Speaker 6:

Yeah, it always happens at like an inopportune time as well, you know, like when you're just starting to cook dinner or something and the reality is like we're on the beach here, we're five minutes from the beach. By the time we've got down to the club, got a wetty on, got a radio and a boat ready, it's like most of the time it's too late. You know, like guys, 15 minutes in the drink, guys can't handle that. You know, without a life jacket they're going to be dead already. So and then you know, when you drown, you sink to the bottom nine times out of 10.

Speaker 4:

So you know, we spend a few hours looking and that's what 90 of them are. I mean, we've had one case where a um, a gentleman, I mean it was four meters swell, so the guy was an idiot on it, you know. But he actually drowned in his life jacket because it was too big for him and he, um, he obviously fell in the water, tried to get back up in the rocks, knocked his head, but, um, when we got to him, his elbows were caught in the in the holes of the wetsuit and his head was down underwater and he had died. So that's the thing If you're going to get a life jacket, preferably over the top of your wetsuit, get something that fits well and that won't get washed off if you do fall into the drain.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's some really good advice, guys, because I see a lot of people just borrow life jackets or might even have the inflatable ones, but the canister hasn't been checked for a couple of years and that's expired or rusted right out. So you know, having probably a foam life jacket that's good fitting, is the recommendation right for hitting the rock Absolutely, and you don't have to wear it while you're walking there.

Speaker 4:

You might be cooked to your backpack or whatever you've got, but as soon as you go near the water, put it on.

Speaker 1:

It's that simple and then leave it on and they're warm as well you know, they take the wind factor off everything what about ropes or harnesses or anything else like that? Are you seeing the guys do that a bit, or is it kind of um?

Speaker 4:

quite funny. In the last 10 years there's been a group of asian fishermen and they started off with all the gear and look pretty, uh pretty, switched on, but as they progressed they ended up trading in their gunboots for sneakers. They have, uh really, they've got wetsuits on, they've got really good fitting life jackets and because of where they're fishing, as rock overhands, they actually they're wearing um, hard hats as well, with a chin strap, you know. And um, I was on the beach. They wanted past. There's four of them. They obviously all fished together and I was on the beach and they wanted to pass. There's four of them. They were obviously all fish together.

Speaker 4:

And one of the other young lifeguards laughed. He goes, oh, look at those clowns. I said, mate, they're the smartest clowns I know. You know they might look funny but they've covered all their bases. And actually one day they were out there and another Kiwi guy went out for a fish and only had his shoes and his wetsuit on, but but he didn't have a life jacket and he ended up falling in and it was a solid half hour before we got to him. And these asian guys they didn't speak good english but they could do enough to throw a rope to him, keep him attached to them, but they couldn't get him up on the rock. So by the time we scooped him up and it was only half an hour he was hypothermic, very thankful. But these guys you know they'd saved his life really kept his fishept, his fish too he did eh yeah.

Speaker 6:

yeah, he was a good snapper. He was a big snapper. He was trying to retrieve a snapper but he got washed off a rock and they kept it for him.

Speaker 1:

Mark Gill has seen his fair share too. As a club member, he also hears these stories of near misses often.

Speaker 2:

Over the years of the incidents I've come across personally around the beaches, harbours and rocks people injuring ankles, rolling ankles, broken legs, 30 minutes away from the road, down tracks. Fortunately the Westpac helicopters are quite skilled and they can do pretty good winch jobs, but you don't want to be stuck in those situations. All sorts of carry-on we come across from people stuck in the mudflats and vehicles in the harbour stuck up on the beach, on the beaches. The amount of carry-on that goes on is you couldn't believe it if you tried. Generally speaking, over the summer months there'd be some sort of assistance required nearly on a daily basis by members from outside of our community, whether that's launching boats, getting stuck, breaking down in boats, paddling out on kayaks to have a quick cast and getting stuck in the current Volunteer fire brigade at Huia.

Speaker 2:

Over the years have had to assist multiple times with people getting stuck down tracks A lot of the time. Coming back from fishing expeditions land-based ones looks towards us and points the finger at us as a club, whereas as if it's one of our members. Nine times out of ten, if there's a club member involved, we're there assisting or helping the general population, like on the Manukau Bar. The amount of boats that go over, more often than not, the first person on the scenes a Manukau Sportfishing Club member or a county's Manukau Bar. The amount of boats that go over, more often than not the first person on the scenes a Manukau Sport Fishing Club member or a county's Manukau Sport Fishing Club member. It's not the Coast Guard, it's not the police, it's us. We're the first ones there helping and there's a lot of guys in the club, a lot of skilled skippers and skilled fishermen, and we're there at the moment's notice, if something happens, to try and help anything we can.

Speaker 2:

I've pulled up onto the rocks at Waterpool to pick up a guy that had been fishing and he had a hook stuck in his leg because he couldn't walk out. So I put up onto the rocks and he jumped on front of the bow of my boat and bring it back to Hulia so he could get off the boat, into the vehicle and get taken into the hospital. That kind of stuff. No one wants to be involved in those situations but if they arise we have to help. It's like the law of the land.

Speaker 2:

A lot of the time guys are in the harbour they don't have their VHF on. They're out there and having a day with their family. They're in the harbour, they don't know anything's going wrong, but yet a K down the harbour or a K up the coast, there's a rescue operation underway. I've been involved in one on the Manukau Bar, retrieving people from the water in the North Channel, and I didn't know anything about it until I seen the police helicopter fly overhead, flicked it onto 16 and there was a mayday. So we ripped out and gave assistance and unfortunately, recovered some bodies from the water and they did not survive.

Speaker 1:

If you're doing a mission off the rocks or the beach, what kind of gear are you taking with you? That's safety gear as well as the fishing gear.

Speaker 2:

Before fishing gear there's a safety gear. So you're looking. If you're going rock fishing, you're taking a life jacket. That's the first thing you take is a life jacket, making sure you have at least two forms of communication. A cell phone doesn't cut it. You're fishing the West Coast. It's not good enough for your only source of communication Vital to take a PLB. It's vital. A PLB $500 and it can really save your life or save one of your friends' lives. And if you go into the water for PLB, people can find you, you know, and ultimately it cuts down a lot of the risk factor for the rescue services as well.

Speaker 2:

So, firstly, life jacket, plb wearing appropriate clothing. You're not going around there in your red bands and your jeans or your track pants. You know. You're wearing clothes that are appropriate for the conditions and the environment you're going into. You're cloning, bring over rocks. You want good, decent footwear, fairly light and with steady ankle support, so you're not going to take those tumbles. A lot of guys get into some deep go right around the rocks and a lot of the time they're using ropes to get around to places and that. And that's all good and well if you're experienced and you know how to deal with that.

Speaker 1:

But if you don't just stick to the closer areas, that are more easily accessible, I think the thing guys forget quite often is you're walking around, but if you've got a good kingy or a couple, of good snapper in the bag there's a bit more weight and and that for your tricky exit as well as your entry.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, if you're wearing, if you're wearing your flip-flops or your um gumboots and you're coming back with uh, some got, you can have a good, awesome day and coming back with 20, 30 kilos extra fish in your backpack, you've got to have all the gear from the foot to the head, the whole way up and making sure you've got a life jacket. So if you do go on the drink and you hit your head, you're not going to drown.

Speaker 1:

I think that's the big one is a lot of people think look, I can swim, but it's a lot harder swimming with a head injury or a broken arm or something like that from the rock fall.

Speaker 2:

It's a lot harder swimming against the rocks full stop, particularly when you're on the coast. Between the Manukau all the way up to Muriwai, there's awesome rock fishing. If you slip and you go into the water, nine times out of 10, there's some sort of swell there. Typically it's a meter, meter and a half on an average kind of day, and if you enter the water in those conditions, try swimming. If you're inexperienced or experienced, even try swimming against the rocks with the waves pounding down on you. You're always going to come out second best.

Speaker 2:

The first mistake people make is they value a fish. A fish's value to them is more than their own life. You can't go out fishing when the conditions are unfavourable Marginal conditions you stay at home. If you can't go out fishing when the conditions are unfavourable Marginal conditions you stay at home. If the swell is big, if the tides are wrong, you stay at home. You can go to the beach, but you don't have to throw the surfcaster out or set the contiki. You don't have to do that. If the conditions don't allow you to fish, you can't fish. You have to stop what you're doing and reassess. You have to stop what you're doing and reassess.

Speaker 1:

Dr McKinney says it's all about the planning before you get out there.

Speaker 5:

But even before that you've got to get prepared. Can you actually swim? If you're fishing off the bricks and there's a swell running and the slippery rocks, there's a good chance you're going to end up in the drink. Now, if you can't swim afloat, that's it, and that's why we've got that terrible record of blokes fishing off the bricks out west getting into trouble and dying. One of the things you know you should be doing is wearing a life jacket. You know, even if you're a good swimmer, you might fall over, smack your head and well, you're toast. But at least then, if you've got a life jacket, you can float, you know.

Speaker 5:

So, yeah, with that planning, it's not even just. You know your own personal safety. You know you've got to plan. Where are the good places to go for the conditions, what's the swell doing, what's the weather doing, what's the tide doing? You know you want to go out with some mates, you know. So if you do get into trouble, someone can help you. If you're there by yourself, it's it always. Always check the weather and conditions, you know, and planning.

Speaker 5:

Also, how do you take care of yourself and your mates? Because it happens quite often where, um, I'll be fishing with some mates and they don't know what to do. And someone ends up in the drink, and well, how breaks loose and you know you'll never forgive yourself. Um, if things do go wrong, how do you get help? Like a lot of the places, that's poor cell phone coverage when it's like jeez, by the time you've got to run over a hill or something and make a phone call, it's often too late, you know. So all that planning you've got to look after yourself, know the conditions, wear a life jacket, fish with a mate, catch a plan. You know, like jeez, if the conditions get dodgy, how are we going to get out of here, you know? And what's our exec strategies and stuff?

Speaker 1:

I think a lot of people put the plan into how I'm going to catch the fish, but not the planning on what if it goes wrong.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, yeah, you know, it's that fishing frenzy. Eh yeah, 100%, mike, someone will get a. You know you might get a big mooch, a snapper on or a kingy, and you forget all the safety advice. A snapper on or a kingy and you forget all the safety advice. Oh jeez, I'm gonna land this bugger and forget about. There's a set wave coming through and you get washed off. But catching the fish awesome, awesome time. You know fishing with your mates is awesome. But yeah, you gotta, you gotta think of all the other stuff. Get in there.

Speaker 5:

Getting home safely, you're johnny on the spot and a lot of the guys fishing off the bricks. They're helping their mates and having a rope to be able to throw to your mate or some form of flotation, even if it's a bucket. If you throw that out to them and they invert, it catches air and they can float on it. And then the next thing how do you get them back in? So, yeah, like throwing a rope. You know I was having a yarn with the guy who fishes Papunui points, you know, south of Raglan, and those guys. They take a rope as well, and sometimes you can only throw a rope so far. But what these guys do, it's quite classic. They're fishing 100-pound braid. They'll just use their rods and cut the hook off and cast over it, get the bod to grab onto the line and slowly pull them into throwing distance of the rope. So it's just a bit of ingenuity there. But yeah, having some form of flotation where it's a life jacket or something you can throw like a life ring or a bucket or and then some rope, um to pull them in, it's good. But you've got to be sort of careful as well because, um, if it's a real big swell running, the last thing you want to do is get down at the water's edge and throw a rope bloody hard to pull someone up. There's a hundred kg fella and he's hanging onto a rope and you're on some slippery rocks trying to pull him up and a set comes through all of a sudden.

Speaker 5:

There's two buds in the drink when there's a thing called um cold water, shock, you know, and then that that's. It actually doesn't have to be super cold, I think at the top of my head I think it's anything below 16 degrees. And if you fall in the drink there's like a gasping reflex. You just can't help help it. You're like ah, ah, you know, and it just freaks you out and it slows you down. Now, if you're an on-swimmer, that's lights out, basically, and you can't swim, you're gasping and you're freaking out.

Speaker 5:

But yeah, if you're fishing in the winter, it's that same thing, like you want to take some clay and that can keep you warm and even if you end up in the drink, you want something warm. Some guys even wear wet suits and when they're fishing off the bricks in winter, yeah, life jackets as well, you can get those neoprene life jackets and they'll keep warmth as well. If you're fishing the north side of te waho point or towards anafada, fishermen's rock and all this stuff you can't be seen. So it's like, oh man, you know, someone gets into trouble. To be frank, it, it's normally a body recovery by the time we go and find them.

Speaker 5:

But yeah, you can see bods walking out and there's a few initiatives being implemented where for years they've got life rings and that out there on those fishing spots. If people want to use those, that's all good for flotation. And then also trying to encourage that life jacket where they've got life jacket libraries where fishers can, um, grab a life jacket on site and then through the surf clubs and carry it out fishing with them. Yeah, you can tell a mile away if someone knows what they're on about. Just by what, how they're dressed and even the gear, just like a surf, you can tell immediately. Just looking at them you know whether they know what they're on about so do you think those conversations need to be had?

Speaker 1:

if, and how would you broach that kind of conversation? You see a couple of guys walking out and maybe they've got big gumboots on and they haven't got a life jacket and they're kind of looking around like they're almost lost, trying to find out where they're going to go. Is it worth having that conversation?

Speaker 5:

on the beach 100, yeah, so percent, yeah. So what's happened now? And this is pretty cool through Auckland Council they're actually funding a rock fishing officer. So his job is to wander around in summer and have yarns, you know, provide education tips and pamphlets and have a yarn and stuff. But yeah, the tricky thing is there's so many spots, you know, like, if you can see them, yeah them, yeah definitely, like we'll send a duck down or a jet ski everything. Oh, mate, is that guy all right and just wander up, are you right, mate? Yes, sweet as, and just keep an eye on them.

Speaker 5:

But again, if we can't see you, you're on your own mate, let someone know where you're going. I mean, that's just common sense to some. If you're going hunting or something you know, or you're going fishing in the boat, you say yeah, I'm shooting out and I should be back by X amount, or the plan that we talked about before can go out the door. You know, the boys are there doing night shift or shift to work and it's like, oh man, we haven't caught up to go fishing for yonks and they've all got a window. It's like we've got this one day and bugger it, we're going fishing and then that's when all the bad things happen oh geez, the conditions aren't right, and X, y, z, blah, blah, blah, but you're going, hella high water and that's it, instead of rocking up there and going oh mate, we're making the call. It's a bit dodgy, let's do it another time. Guys are going and getting into trouble.

Speaker 1:

This is also compounded when doing a bar crossing and, as Craig explains, there are more people doing them, so you need to know what you're facing and be prepared.

Speaker 3:

This year we've done a lot of launching through the bar because the beach, the sand washed away from Mirawai the beach. We couldn't get the boat onto the beach. So this year in particular, it was just a lot of bar fishing during the season. So we met a lot of people that hadn't done it before and it's just like, and they won't even call up when they go. Now, as soon as you see them back at the ramp, give them a bit of a rundown, like a polite rundown, of what the protocol is. You make sure you call Coast Guard because we don't want to be looking for them. Always make sure you've got a life jacket on. I've never been through the bar or off the beach without a life will either. I don't know guys that just charge on through. It's crazy, as you know. Yeah, we obviously looking at the forecast. I look at Windy for what the wind's going to do, I look at surfcom for the swell and I've got another couple I cross-reference against. But off the beach isn't so bad if it's a rising swell because it's easier coming back in if you can get off. But I mean, quite a few occasions we've gone out and it's been too big to launch and even when it's a bit iffy I always ask the crew if they're keen to go, because if something does go wrong, everyone's got to buy into the responsibility of going out, not just me saying yeah, I'm going to go If no one else is happy. I've done it a couple of times with the old man. He only let me turn around. I just tell him to hang on.

Speaker 3:

As you get older, you get wiser as well. I used to go out in some crazy weather, but not anymore. I've only got the kids with me now, so it's a bit more subdued. So off the beach he's sort of like a metre and a half. You're pretty comfortable as long as it's not too much wind on top and not close to high water. If it's an incoming tide close to high water, it's going to be. Normally it gets a bit messy. It's always a bit harder to launch than it do and through the bar we've got a bit of an unwritten rule If it's sort of one and a half metres rising swell, don't go, because normally if it's a rising swell it rises quicker than what the forecasts are telling you. That's my experience. You know it can rise quicker and you get caught up. We've been caught out there before in big swells, you know, rising quicker and bigger than what the forecast was. Normally if it's a falling swell, it falls quicker than what they say as well. So if you look at it the following day and you think it's going to be too big, say as well. So if you look at it the following day and you think it's going to be too big, and quite often it's actually dropped quicker than what the forecast, so you can still sneak out there, just take a punt. Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Speaker 3:

I mean I'll sort of guys that have not necessarily joined the club, but I've met them at the ramp at Shelley Beach because this year we've done a lot of bar fishing during the season, so I met a lot of people that hadn't done it before and it's just like and they won't even call up when they go now, as soon as you see them back at the ramp, give them a bit of a run down, like a polite run down, of what the protocol is always make sure we've got a life jacket on. I've never been through the bar or off the beach without a life jacket in my life. I never will either. I know guys that just charge on through. It's crazy. I've been stuck out at the trench. I had a boat with 20 outboards on it and one of the props spun a rubber on it. On the props I only had one output to go and it was right on dark, sort of. From that experience I always carry spare parts with me for props.

Speaker 3:

I had one this year where we were out we'd gone through the bar in Chogon and we'd caught a couple of marlin and we had a good day. So we pushed it right to the end a couple of hours before dark to cross the bar. Coming back in it was a um sort of 1.8 meter day, I think. Coming back in, um we spun a prop. We were six miles off the back of the bar when it spun and we're going to do six knots. So as it worked out, we um, we got to the bar right on dark.

Speaker 3:

Luckily we had another guy hung out to help us, you know. So he just um waited for us to the bar. Make sure we got through right, because it was quite choppy by the time we got there. It was breaking around a lot of places but luckily we still had a bit of power just to surf our way through coming in and the tide was in our favour as well. And then I had my cousin. He was out in one of our other boats, drove up the beach with a spare prop, took the prop off my other boat and then we put that on and got back home that way, put that on and got back home that way. But we didn't get home until sort of midnight after that experience. That was only a month ago, top of the month. So you always got to prepare for something going wrong and we sort of pushed it too far on a reasonably big day and that prop spinning didn't make it easier and Coast Guard's not really going to take your call from the trench, you know.

Speaker 3:

I mean I let Coast Guard know of our situation, where we are. I'd rather rely on other local mates around you. There's a Coast Guard in the Hillandsville River. It's still a fair way away for them to get down. They're probably talking 25 or 30 miles just to get to the bar from where they are. If we're going out the bar, more so than the beach, the bar we'll always a few calls the night before who's fishing tomorrow. We'll meet you at South Head at a rough time.

Speaker 3:

We'll cross the bar together normally on the way out, whether we go North Channel or South Channel, and then coming back in at the end of the day everyone's talking. So the channel for Kuiper is Channel 7. So we always call up before we get to the channel, put a bar watch through. It's normally like a 30-minute bar watch and Coast Guard are supposed to call you back within 30 minutes if they haven't heard from you and they do Quite often they do that. So call before you cross and then call once you get over the bar and just give them a rough depth and location. You're going to be fishing for the day and then when we come back in, it's normally about 3 or 4 o'clock everyone calls we're on Channel 10. Out there Everyone will radio around. Everyone sort of try and cross together again coming back through. If it's a biggish day as well, everyone sticks together. If we don't hear anyone on the radio after a bar crossing sometimes they've been on their way through we'll call them up at the last time just to make sure they're still all right. It takes a bit longer to get through.

Speaker 3:

Having a good crew is crucial as well Someone beside you that can read, because when you're skippering you're sort of looking at the waves, the first or second wave. You need someone reading the back break of what's coming in and someone you can trust. If they say go left, you go left and it's a better spot, not some of the things. They know what they're talking about and leads you into the. You need to trust your crew. Guys say to me I'd rather go with you than anyone else because you know what you're doing. To a certain point it's right. But the lower averages, the more you do it, the more chance you've got of fucking up as well. So it's two sides to experience. And then the more you're doing it, the more chance you've got of misjudging it or something you couldn't even control. One jacks up in front of you, so it's a hard one to predict.

Speaker 1:

Mark Gill has also had some close calls.

Speaker 2:

There's been a few incidences, a few crossings I've done on my own and thought, fuck, I shouldn't have done that. You kind of learn from it. The thing is it only takes one mistake on one of those crossings and it's all over. So joining a club's pretty essential in my opinion, if you want to fish out there and have a long fishing career out there, because if you don't, you if you want to fish out there and have a long fishing career out there, because if you don't, you might just be going out there one or two times before it's all over.

Speaker 2:

On the West Coast you're dealing with quite a unique set of circumstances. First of all, we've got huge harbours, highly tidal harbours, so there's a massive amount of water movement. It affects predominantly the Manukau and the Kaipara harbours. The sandbars are built up by those currents. The difference between crossing on a one metre swell on a small tide and a one metre swell on a big tide is chalk and cheese. On a small tide you can cross nearly any time during the tide duration. On a one metre swell On a big tide you cannot. You can only cross an hour and a half to two hours either side of the tides. The waves stand up when that tide's ripping out and that's undone a lot of good confidence.

Speaker 2:

Skippers, over the years, a lot of these incidents have fortunately been people running that buddy system and they've had other friends there with them that have been able to help and other times they've had no one there to help them and when your boat goes over, don't have time to call coast guard, you don't have time, you're in the water before you know it and it's you against the water. We've had club members that have fortunately managed to swim to land and raise, raise the call for help and we've also had we've had countless amount of club members assist people in the bar that have gone over and quite often when we've come across these boats, it's on these days, with the bigger tides and the swell, with the high energy level, a bigger period. The swells don't have to be big, they just have to have good energy in them and that's all the difference.

Speaker 4:

And as Duncan puts it On the West Coast, we've got nowhere to hide. You know you've got to keep an eye on the conditions, You've got to know what you're heading out into and, like has happened with us, we've gone out, it's two foot, you know, calm as a mill pond. And you come home and it's four metres and everything's changed. And in that situation you've got to be, you know, be on your toes.

Speaker 1:

And there's a couple of instances we've had guys on the beach keeping eyes on us in case we went over A few of the other guys talked about, like buddy kind of setups where you're always going fishing with a mate or boats are going out together, or even off the rocks you're taking someone with you. Is that how you guys operate as well?

Speaker 6:

Well, we always know someone else in the club who's out there at the same time. So that's how it works, you know, like we've got a rough idea of where everyone else is. We never go on our own, really, you know, but it just works out like that because we've got a fishing club, so we're always yarning.

Speaker 4:

And West Coast there's a lot of, as you said. There's Mirawai, there's Manukau, even Bethel's got a little club. That's unofficial but everyone's out there. You see another boat. You go up for a chat, see what they're up, to see how they're doing.

Speaker 4:

There's one instance we were heading out wide for a broadie drop and talking to the other guy in the other boat right up to the point where he launched and he changed his mind he goes, I'm not going anymore.

Speaker 4:

And I got out there and I was pretty pissed off because you know it was a big effort to go out, sort of 40 miles, and I radioed up to see who was around and there was another guy from the Manukau Club who I know through game fishing and he just said look, if you know where you're going, I'm there and I'll hang around until you get here. And he goes, I'll be here for the next six hours and we'll fish together. And we both hooked up and Chris thought I brought him for about an hour, an hour and a half, and Ken's like he dropped a big shark and he just goes around till you leave. So you know it's a good, good group of people that maybe not not our club, but there are guys out there that you know through getting to know each other out on the water and around and look after each other which is what it's all about us stepping up and looking after each other.

Speaker 1:

And to finish this episode, I thought it was worth asking these guys what's the reality like when it doesn't go well. They've seen it all far too many times already, and dr mckinney starts by sharing his lifeguarding experience at united piha mate, it's horrendous, it's absolutely horrendous, not only for, um, obviously, the person that's deceased, their mates and their family.

Speaker 5:

When they family rock up to identify a body or something, mate, it's, it's not nice. But you also got to consider the lifeguards or emergency surfaces or surfers or any bystander ends up dragging a dead person in. That affects them as well. And there's like a vibe, say, at the club and that if there is a you know, a fatality or something, you can almost feel it. The vibe in the club is not quite right and that affects all this other stuff as well. But yeah, mate, I've seen some horrendous and that affects all this other stuff as well. But yeah, I've seen some horrendous stuff and you don't really want to be around when you see that sort of stuff.

Speaker 5:

Go on, the family, the friends, work, colleagues could be a mate from your rugby team. It's like, oh, mate, it throws a whole lot of people. A lot of it could be oh shit, I was just going down to retrieve a bloody sinker. Aussies, they've got a classic. It's something don't put your life on the line. Catch a fish another day, mate, or shit, it's only a sinker, get another one.

Speaker 1:

I think that's where we're at. A real risk is when you've got to fish right up to the edge and you've put the fight in and all the work's been done and it's that last moment to bring it over the edge or up to where you are. Or maybe you've got a snag, like you said, or a sinker caught in between the rocks. What's your advice in that situation?

Speaker 5:

yeah, mate I, I think that's a big one where um fishing with um mates like you can get a mate can keep an eye on the swell pattern below, make sure there's a swell coming, give it a break or something I get. I guess it's a hard one because that's that's. We'll get that fish fever. So, oh, man, it's on, it's like. Can't wait to tell the fellas, you know, and spinny yarn, crack a few and but again that that comes down to the techniques. Like some guys will have long gaffs or they might have sort of ropes with like some little grapple hooks. They can slide down their nylon and then gaff the hook. I mean, get the fish and bring it up. You know, and even the gun guys will know certain areas where they can pull up a fish on a swell. I'll put it in this little glut because I know it'll come up with the swell and they're all over it, whilst you get someone who doesn't know that they go down to the water's edge, it's all on slippery way. It comes, it's all over. So I mean, one of the key things and I often think about that is you know, you say it all the time, you know, join a book club or um, go see someone who knows what they're doing or get some lessons.

Speaker 5:

If you're keen on rock fishing, ask around you. Go to the local fishing show, oh, mate, because there'll be oodles of bods. You know fishing in fishing clubs. They'll be quite keen to give you a hand. If they only knew. And they'll be like, yeah, come and join the club and you know, you'll be fishing with those bods. A lot of them are intergenerational fishers and there's so much knowledge. Just don't be bloody scared to ask. You know, for it's just that, yeah, you know to ask him for help. And don't be scared to ask for help.

Speaker 1:

Finally, here's Chris and Duncan, who have seen it go wrong too many times themselves.

Speaker 6:

I think the thing people don't realise is how short your lifespan actually is. If you fall off the rocks, you know, like I reckon somewhere north of 90% of guys who fall off the rocks aren't expecting to go in the water. They drown, you know, and most of them are under within inside of five minutes. They've drowned, you know. So that's how long you've got, really.

Speaker 4:

That's if someone sees you and can raise the alarm. Yeah, you know we've had guys go on and no one knows they've gone. You just come to the rocks and all the wife will ring up and go. You know Bob's gone fishing. You haven't seen or heard from him in four hours. He's supposed to be home at lunchtime. And you go there and there's Bob's backpack and all his tackle and everything else. There's just no sign of Bob and he's not bobbing.

Speaker 6:

I mean it happened. There was two this summer rock fishermen. Both of them were out with a big group of their mates and you just sort of because I end up doing this a lot, so I deliberately avoid trying to speak to their mates or their family or anything like that, unless it's just trying to get some information for where they went in, because it's not worth it. It's just too hard. But you just see their mates just looking shell-shocked, basically.

Speaker 6:

It's that other disbelief they were having the time of their life catching a feed and then, literally within 15 minutes, they're sitting back at the club and their mate's dead.

Speaker 4:

And they've had to experience and watch us and the Ambos and the Fieries do the best we can to resuscitate them and, as I said, more often than not the mate them and, as I said, you know, more often than not they make they've never seen without a stitch of clothing on, has been washed up, or we pull them out of the water without a stitch of clothing on. Their modesty's gone. They've had the worst day of their lives and, um, you know, the mates see it and then the wife gets called and it's just devastating. Um, you know, and it sits with us, it sits hard with us because it is, you know, it doesn't have to happen and this is the thing. If one person in the group has a doubt, it should be listened to. There's no dead heroes, sorry, there's not yet.

Speaker 6:

It's pretty bloody, undignified, even if you survive, you're getting grabbed by some big meathead and pulled out of the water. You'll be butt naked. You'll be getting dragged up the beach beach. If some sort of recess has to happen or something, people, it'll be in front of people. You know there's nothing we can do about that. So it's yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty heavy situation, you know it's just if the conditions don't look right, don't go.

Speaker 4:

It's that simple. Any doubts? Don't go. Yeah, it's just a feed of fish. You can buy at the fish shop if you have to on the way home. But it's just the devastation on the family that's left behind, the mates, just that shared disbelief that their mate, their husband, their brother, their son is now dead, when all they were doing was going for a fish.

Speaker 6:

Yeah, particularly if we don't find them as well. A lot of them, you know they'll drown and then we'll be sort of there for a week or so waiting for them to wash up. Not all of them wash up somewhere, you know. So they don't even have a body, you know, they're just. Yeah, there's that girl we see in the pub over there. Oh yeah, there's a girl we know comes to PR. We see her every now and again. We tried to was it her father, Her uncle, Her uncle. We did recess on her uncle. She doesn't live here, but every time she comes over and talks to you, and every time it's just about that, and she can't ever come to the beach without seeing that every time she comes.

Speaker 4:

And pics are scared. For us too, it's something you've got to bury. You try and bury under layers and she turns up and all she wants to talk about is the day we didn't resuscitate her uncle. And he's sitting there unratched. There's nothing we could have done about it. We did the best we could with what we had. Unfortunately, that's just. She lives with it day in, day out.

Speaker 1:

She can't go as Chris just said, she can't come to PR and not think about that day A sobering reminder of the long-lasting effects that these tragedies have on everyone. For more information, check the NZSFC or Safer Boating websites. The details are in the podcast description. Next week we catch up with the women at the helm, Kiwi chicks out there leading the pack, and what they do to make sure they come home safe. The NZSFC Pod and Reel podcast is brought to you by the New Zealand Sport Fishing Council with support from Maritime New Zealand and the Safer Boating Forum. Thank you.